I was contemplating the timeline today, and seeing how Widmore fits. We know he must have left before the purge. He didnt seem like much of a leader when we met him in 1954. But he claimed that he lead for 3 decades.

I am wondering if "the incident" coincides with Widmore turning the wheel. We don't know the exact date of it though. The Swan orientation film was made in 1980. The Swan was originally a lab where they studied the electomagnetic properties of the island. It was after the incident that the button pushing protocol had to be implemented, as mentioned in the film. But the blast door map says the incident happened in 1985. Maybe the part about the button protocol was spliced in later. (The whole film IS pretty choppy.)

So it could work. If Widmore became leader shortly after we saw him in 1954, and the incident happened in 1985, there's a nice, tidy 30 years of King Widmore time that would get him out of the way well before the purge. Also Miles said in 2005 that Widmore had been looking for the island for 20 years.

So it all fits perfectly! Widmore became leader in 1955, turned the wheel in 1985, and got his freighter people to the island in 2005.

Your timeline makes sense with what we've heard about Widmore. Late in Season 4, though (I think it was "Cabin Fever"), Ben claimed that he had not been the leader of the Others during the Purge. So if your timeline is right, and Ben wasn't lying, then someone else had been leader in between the two of them and ordered the Purge.

Interesting.

I've got a feeling, though, that "The Incident" will involve our castaways during their time among the DHARMA Initiative. Don't know why, but I do.

Your timeline makes sense with what we've heard about Widmore. Late in Season 4, though (I think it was "Cabin Fever"), Ben claimed that he had not been the leader of the Others during the Purge. So if your timeline is right, and Ben wasn't lying, then someone else had been leader in between the two of them and ordered the Purge.

Interesting.

I've got a feeling, though, that "The Incident" will involve our castaways during their time among the DHARMA Initiative. Don't know why, but I do.

That would be interesting to see.

I didn't remember Ben saying that. He probably lied. Maybe not. I wondered who the leader was in 1954. It didn't appear to be Widmore. It seemed like Richard was in charge. Lostpedia says he was. So maybe one of Richards roles as consigliere is to lead in the absence of a chosen leader. He was leader before Widmore, between Widmore and Ben, and is probably leading the Others now, in Johns absence.

You could be right but I'm still pretty sure from watching the orientation film that the incident happened AT The Swan. Since we discovered the FDW, everyone has assumed that the incident happened at The Orchid. But I believe the film is fairly clear.

You could be right but I'm still pretty sure from watching the orientation film that the incident happened AT The Swan. Since we discovered the FDW, everyone has assumed that the incident happened at The Orchid. But I believe the film is fairly clear.
The incident did occur in the Swan.
These two paragraphs were in Lost Wikia.

The original purpose of The Swan was to be a sort of laboratory for DHARMA's research on electromagnetism. According to Chang, The Swan was conducting its initial experiments when the aforementioned "incident" occurred. When questioned about the incident, Kelvin describes the material behind the wall as "electromagnetism, geologically unique". The incident mentioned in the orientation filmstrip caused a leak, which necessitates the release of built-up charge every 108 minutes. The aftermath resulted in the regular button-pushing procedure.

An unspecified "incident" early in the station's experiments resulted in a change of focus: a two-member crew, replaced every 540 days, is now under orders to enter a code (4, 8, 15, 16, 23, 42) into a microcomputer terminal every 108 minutes. The film stresses the importance of adhering to the procedure by entering the code quickly and accurately, but gives no reason or potential consequences. At the end of the film, a copyright date of 1980 is shown.

I am not saying that the incident happened at the Orchid.

Back in the premier Chang ordered the Orchid construction workers not to drill further into the chamber or "God help us all." That sounds pretty dire.

I am suggesting that somehow, Widmore's turning of the wheel released some of the negatively charged exotic matter from the Orchid, which interacted with the electromagnetic energy at the Swan. Since Widmore was tricked by Ben into turning the wheel, he probably didn't have proper guidance, and may have knocked it off its axis like Ben did.

By the time Ben turned the wheel, the EM energy wasn't being contained anymore. So there is no telling what could have happened back when it was, and what effect it would have had on the entire island.

Screwing up the wheel caused the whole island to jump erratically through time. Screwing up the wheel with a reactor chocked full of EM energy just a few miles away... no telling.

Also worth noting is the fact that the discharge after the key was turned and the blinding light/sound after the wheel turned, were very similar.

Could Widmore know about Jacob by then??
Did Jacob already exist by when Widmore was the leader? And was he already the leader of the leader??
Did Jacob order the Purge????


Did Jacob kick Widmore away from the Island not Ben??

I think that while Widmore may or may not have caused the incident, Hawking was definitely involved, i still firmly believe that the incident was a massive release of electromagnetism and that Hawking was in the swan at the time. This would most certainly explain her apparent ability of foresight and could suggest that she, like Widmore started their association with DHARMA after defecting from the others, or infultrating the DI.

I've got a feeling, though, that "The Incident" will involve our castaways during their time among the DHARMA Initiative. Don't know why, but I do.

Yes, I've got that feeling, too, definitely. I think that our Losties' time travel generally wreaked all sorts of havoc.

The timeline's beautifully laid out, MPmom, well done. I also agree with your line of thinking that Ben likely used some incident and its possible repercussions to exile Widmore.

But I cannot make up my mind, which incident. The Swan incident (late 70es, 1980) and the AH/MDG incident (1985) are two different incidents, in my mind. Heck, I cannot even make up my mind, if Widmore did turn the Wheel or not.

WIDMORE: Because that's the exit. I was afraid Benjamin might fool you into leaving the Island, like he did with me. I was their leader.
LOCKE: The Others?
WIDMORE: They're not the "Others" to me. They're my people. We protected the island peacefully for more than three decades. But then I was exiled by him... just as you were

I'm so confused by those lines. "We protected the island peacefully for more than three decades." sounds wrong on so many levels. It's more like something a Dharma leader with all their utopian ideals would say. The way the Others and specially Widmore protected the Island certainly wasn't "peacefully" at all (snap your comrade's neck, kill all soldiers, kill the timetraveling redshirt Losties). Sounds more like protect it at all costs!

So Widmore was fooled into leaving the island - at least this one bit seems to be true. I guess, we can also be fairly certain that around 1985 there is some "incident" which makes Widmore leave the Island, Ben take leadership of the Others, and the Wheel was turned in order to make it impossible for Widmore to return.
100%
Well, strike the "Ben takes leadership" off my list - he could not have done so until the Purge in 1992, at least not "officially". Or could he? It's a complete mystery to me, still, that we did see Ben as a Dharma workman as late as 1992. Where was Alex? Could he have pulled off a double life as Other leader and Dharma workman?

Good point. "The Incident" in The Swan orientation was pre-1980 by the dating on the film. Widmore didn't leave until possibly 1985.

Was there ever a date given to the "Purge"? Or even an approx. one? I don't remember. It would seem that Widdie would leave before it, or perhaps he left via the FDW as a result of it. It did seem to me he did use the FDW before.

Benry always said he didn't order "The Purge" of the Dharma's; we've thought that meant that Jacob or Alpert did. Is there a chance that Widdie, as leader of the Others did?

I'm so confused by those lines. "We protected the island peacefully for more than three decades." sounds wrong on so many levels. It's more like something a Dharma leader with all their utopian ideals would say. The way the Others and specially Widmore protected the Island certainly wasn't "peacefully" at all (snap your comrade's neck, kill all soldiers, kill the timetraveling redshirt Losties). Sounds more like protect it at all costs!

Not to be nit picky, but we have yet to see the Others under Widmore's leadership. For all we know Widmore really did keep the island peaceful for those three decades as part of the "Golden Years" of the island. Maybe they kept it peaceful as opposed to the dark ages of Ben leadership present day and (Richard?) leadership back in the 50's.

Could Widmore know about Jacob by then??
Did Jacob already exist by when Widmore was the leader? And was he already the leader of the leader??
Did Jacob order the Purge????


Did Jacob kick Widmore away from the Island not Ben??

I think it was implied that Jacob was already a 'major player' on the Island, at least as early as in 1954. When Locke appeared to Richard Alpert and the 1954 Widmore Others, he represented himself as having been "sent by Jacob". And given that Locke's statement held gravity with Alpert and convinced him to have Widmore stand down from holding a rifle to Locke's head, then yes - I would have to conclude that Jacob was already existent back then too.
As well, given that Jacob seems to be "calling the shots" as far as looking after the best interests of the Island, I don't think it would be too far of a stretch to presume that ultimately it was Jacob's wish that the Purge be enacted.

As for Jacob kicking Widmore away from the Island, it doesn't appear that he did - at least not from Widmore's perspective. Or did he? It's interesting to note after reading the following dialogue excerpt, Widmore's reference to "him" can be construed as being ambiguous:

WIDMORE: Because that's the exit. I was afraid Benjamin might fool you into leaving the Island, like he did with me. I was their leader.
LOCKE: The Others?
WIDMORE: They're not the "Others" to me. They're my people. We protected the island peacefully for more than three decades. But then I was exiled by him... just as you were

By "him" it might seem that Charles is directly referring to Ben....but could it just as well be that Widmore is referring to Jacob instead? To a certain degree, Jacob also 'exiled' Locke from the Island and the statement can still be true even if interpreted in this alternate context.

But in retrospect, the easier explanation is that Ben was responsible for Charles' expulsion from the Island since Widmore has all this pent-up animosity towards Ben all this time.

Was there ever a date given to the "Purge"? Or even an approx. one? I don't remember. It would seem that Widdie would leave before it, or perhaps he left via the FDW as a result of it. It did seem to me he did use the FDW before.

Benry always said he didn't order "The Purge" of the Dharma's; we've thought that meant that Jacob or Alpert did. Is there a chance that Widdie, as leader of the Others did?

It think the generally accepted notion of when the Purge occurred was in 1992. This date was derived from the dream that Locke had in which Horace Goodspeed revealed to him that he had been dead for 12 years ("Cabin Fever"). Since we've seen that Horace died during the Purge with eyes wide open and sitting on a park bench, we can conclude that the Purge occurred in (2004 - 12yrs =) 1992.

Could Widmore have been behind the Purge? If you just go logically by doing the math, it would appear that he didn't. Using the year 1954 as the starting benchmark and Widmore's statement that he 'peacefully' protected the Island for 30 years, this places the end of his reign as the Others leader at about 1984-1985. Corroborating this reference year of 1984-1985 is Miles' statement that Widmore had been on a 20 year search of the Island. With that said, 1984+20 years = 2004 - and this is the time when the Kahana finds the Island, so this whole hypothesized timeline pretty much is in agreement with the reported sequence of events.

So if we hold the above to be pretty much accurate, we would thus end up placing Widmore's departure of the Island at around 1984-1985 - which is a good 7 years before the Purge itself. It would then stand to follow that Charles would not have been involved in the decision-making behind the carrying out of the Purge.

But with all this said, it's also been generally accepted that Ben only came into power as the Other's leader as a result of the Purge - which is to say that Ben became the leader only as of 1992. Hence, if this is held to be true, then wouldn't this mean that there is a void in Other leadership between 1985 (when Widmore left) and 1992 (when Ben came on board)?

This disparity in time between Widmore's departure and Ben's resumption of power is further complicated by Charles' statement that he was exiled from the Island by Ben and his consequent resentment of Ben as a result of the expulsion. Because of this 7 year time difference between when one leader left and the other comes in, it makes it all the much harder to reconcile how and why Widmore could harbor such ill will towards Ben when it seems that the two occasions seemingly occurred independently of each other and not necessarily in such a way that Ben's ascension into leadership was the cause of Widmore's expulsion from the Island.

Does anyone follow this? Or am I missing something here?

Not to be nit picky, but we have yet to see the Others under Widmore's leadership. For all we know Widmore really did keep the island peaceful for those three decades as part of the "Golden Years" of the island. Maybe they kept it peaceful as opposed to the dark ages of Ben leadership present day and (Richard?) leadership back in the 50's.

I've been long a fan of the "Widdie's really the good guy" theory. Most of what we knew of him, had come from Ben, and Ben's a pathological liar. But seeing Widmore as a teenager really ruined it for me :drowsy:. Obnoxious behaviour all around.

Dharma built a whole station, The Arrow, for the alleged purpose of development of defensive strategies against the Hostiles. The schoolchildren routinely had to take cover during incursions of the Natives of the island. No, peaceful, I don't believe it. Widdie Golden Years of the Island, nice phrase, though. I like it. And so would Widmore, I suspect. You're recruited. :biggrin:
100%

Does anyone follow this? Or am I missing something here?

Oh, I sure follow. If our theories were right- Widmore leaving Island aournd 1985 - Purge 1992 - we not only have a weird leaderless timespan of around 7 years. I also just can't see Ben posing as Dharma workman for 7 years, after he pulled off a stunt like tricking the Other's former leader off the Island. But who knows. Ben is patient. It all might have been part of a greater Ben plan.

But what the heck did he do with Alex? Did he live with her in Dharmaville for four years, then they moved to Otherville - ah, I forgot, the Others joined their leader family in the Barracks.

Pity it's not 17 years. Then Hurley's father could fit in nicely as intermediate leader.

I think it was implied that Jacob was already a 'major player' on the Island, at least as early as in 1954. When Locke appeared to Richard Alpert and the 1954 Widmore Others, he represented himself as having been "sent by Jacob". And given that Locke's statement held gravity with Alpert and convinced him to have Widmore stand down from holding a rifle to Locke's head, then yes - I would have to conclude that Jacob was already existent back then too.
As well, given that Jacob seems to be "calling the shots" as far as looking after the best interests of the Island, I don't think it would be too far of a stretch to presume that ultimately it was Jacob's wish that the Purge be enacted.

As for Jacob kicking Widmore away from the Island, it doesn't appear that he did - at least not from Widmore's perspective. Or did he? It's interesting to note after reading the following dialogue excerpt, Widmore's reference to "him" can be construed as being ambiguous:

WIDMORE: Because that's the exit. I was afraid Benjamin might fool you into leaving the Island, like he did with me. I was their leader.
LOCKE: The Others?
WIDMORE: They're not the "Others" to me. They're my people. We protected the island peacefully for more than three decades. But then I was exiled by him... just as you were

By "him" it might seem that Charles is directly referring to Ben....but could it just as well be that Widmore is referring to Jacob instead? To a certain degree, Jacob also 'exiled' Locke from the Island and the statement can still be true even if interpreted in this alternate context.

But in retrospect, the easier explanation is that Ben was responsible for Charles' expulsion from the Island since Widmore has all this pent-up animosity towards Ben all this time.



It think the generally accepted notion of when the Purge occurred was in 1992. This date was derived from the dream that Locke had in which Horace Goodspeed revealed to him that he had been dead for 12 years ("Cabin Fever"). Since we've seen that Horace died during the Purge with eyes wide open and sitting on a park bench, we can conclude that the Purge occurred in (2004 - 12yrs =) 1992.

Could Widmore have been behind the Purge? If you just go logically by doing the math, it would appear that he didn't. Using the year 1954 as the starting benchmark and Widmore's statement that he 'peacefully' protected the Island for 30 years, this places the end of his reign as the Others leader at about 1984-1985. Corroborating this reference year of 1984-1985 is Miles' statement that Widmore had been on a 20 year search of the Island. With that said, 1984+20 years = 2004 - and this is the time when the Kahana finds the Island, so this whole hypothesized timeline pretty much is in agreement with the reported sequence of events.

So if we hold the above to be pretty much accurate, we would thus end up placing Widmore's departure of the Island at around 1984-1985 - which is a good 7 years before the Purge itself. It would then stand to follow that Charles would not have been involved in the decision-making behind the carrying out of the Purge.

But with all this said, it's also been generally accepted that Ben only came into power as the Other's leader as a result of the Purge - which is to say that Ben became the leader only as of 1992. Hence, if this is held to be true, then wouldn't this mean that there is a void in Other leadership between 1985 (when Widmore left) and 1992 (when Ben came on board)?

This disparity in time between Widmore's departure and Ben's resumption of power is further complicated by Charles' statement that he was exiled from the Island by Ben and his consequent resentment of Ben as a result of the expulsion. Because of this 7 year time difference between when one leader left and the other comes in, it makes it all the much harder to reconcile how and why Widmore could harbor such ill will towards Ben when it seems that the two occasions seemingly occurred independently of each other and not necessarily in such a way that Ben's ascension into leadership was the cause of Widmore's expulsion from the Island.

Does anyone follow this? Or am I missing something here?


I'm not sure of the benchmark starting date. When you say "...Using the year 1954 as the starting benchmark and Widmore's statement that he 'peacefully' protected the Island for 30 years, this places the end of his reign as the Others leader at about 1984-1985.", that supposed that Widmore took control away from Richard in 1984. Who is to say Charles didn't become king of the others until later? And he didn;t say he was the Others leader for 30 years, just that he WAS their leader, and they protected for 30 years.

Now, on the other hand, if Penny really is his daughter, and was not born on the island, I agree he had left the Island by 1984 to father her, and even that is a squeak.

I'd sum up by saying I think Charles was there for 30 years, ws their leader for less than 30 years, and left before 1984.

I think that while Widmore may or may not have caused the incident, Hawking was definitely involved, i still firmly believe that the incident was a massive release of electromagnetism and that Hawking was in the swan at the time. This would most certainly explain her apparent ability of foresight and could suggest that she, like Widmore started their association with DHARMA after defecting from the others, or infultrating the DI.

Interesting. Maybe she was assigned to sabotage the Swan, or to study it or something.

I've been long a fan of the "Widdie's really the good guy" theory. Most of what we knew of him, had come from Ben, and Ben's a pathological liar. But seeing Widmore as a teenager really ruined it for me :drowsy:. Obnoxious behaviour all around.

Dharma built a whole station, The Arrow, for the alleged purpose of development of defensive strategies against the Hostiles. The schoolchildren routinely had to take cover during incursions of the Natives of the island. No, peaceful, I don't believe it. Widdie Golden Years of the Island, nice phrase, though. I like it. And so would Widmore, I suspect. You're recruited. :biggrin:
100%

Me too!

And I'd like to point out that we've never actually *seen* an incursion by the hostiles. Perhaps the DI was aware that the "hostiles" have much more utopian a society than they do, and it would be easy to convince someone to leave the DI's comfy colony for a life with Richard. The lie about the hostiles being violent could have been perpetuated to maintain the ranks of the DI, not because they actually were Hostile. In fact, it was the DI that built the electric fence, the DI who had all the guns, the DI that had the gas that was ultimately used to purge them. Looks like a huge attempt at indoctrincation to me.

The Others were quite hostile to the US Army, so I doubt they were any more accepting of the heavily armed, very driven Dharma Initiative.