Hurley knows Korean? [Archive] - { Flicks N Shows | Fringe Division

scubagert

10-13-2005, 11:28 PM

I think this is an oversight on the writers part. You can dream that you speak a foreign language but the words you dream would be gibberish unless you either spoke that language or were repeating something you had heard in real life.

Thank you Fogey. You're the only one making sense of this. I agree it might be an oversight. Otherwise, he knows Korean. There's no way to speak fluently in a language in a dream or an out of body experience or whatever without knowing the languange.

EXACTLY!
I can't believe whoever started this thread thought it was something more. It's a device for the writers for when Hurley meets up with Sun and she's all down about the raft but Hurley remembers; HIS DREAM!

Umm... Thats me. And everything happens for a reason on this show.

Robinhood56 I definitely agree with you there. Man I was cracking up reading this thread!
We wouldn't understand gibberish and Hurley is dreaming he IS speaking Korean but that doesn't mean he actually is in the dream. That put Korean in his mouth but as he doesn't speak Korean....he believes he is speaking Korean in his dream. If you get my meaning. He believes he is so therefore that's what we as the audience is seeing.

Is this Korean? Just kidding, I understand what you're saying and agree that the writers probably did this for our viewing pleasure. But it does leave questions in my head. I mean, Hurley was on Korean TV.

darkpiranha

10-14-2005, 02:08 AM

There is absolutely nothing significant about Hurley speaking Korean in his dream. The only reason he was on Korean TV was that they were showing him winning the Lotto. The video was of him in California being asked about winning. And THAT was only to foreshadow Hurley's backstory, which at that point we hadn't even gotten a whiff of.

In fact, as each week goes by, I think the producers and writers make a conscious effort to put in the show at least one sequence they intend to use in the promo that when taken out of context will completely blow everyone's mind. And it was probably a bit of Daniel Kim asking the producers "Hey.. can you write at least ONE scene this season where I can speak English so people can hear my regular accent and so they won't think I only speak Korean?"

Hurley's dream was just a cool twist on how we always see people that speak other languages speaking in English in dreams. They just twisted it and started making the dreamer speak the other language.

BTW, Locke doesn't ACTUALLY have one solid black eye and one solid white eye. And Walt doesn't speak backwards. :)

I'm just totally STUNNED that this is even up for debate. And I'm more stunned that I'm involved in that debate!

Gah!

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to return to my regular job of defending my Hanso = Hitler theories...

jericho73

10-14-2005, 02:48 AM

Thank you Fogey. You're the only one making sense of this. I agree it might be an oversight. Otherwise, he knows Korean. There's no way to speak fluently in a language in a dream or an out of body experience or whatever without knowing the languange.

Umm... Thats me. And everything happens for a reason on this show.

Is this Korean? Just kidding, I understand what you're saying and agree that the writers probably did this for our viewing pleasure. But it does leave questions in my head. I mean, Hurley was on Korean TV.

They showed a clip of him winning the lottery...it was a news station, stock ticker and all...perhaps an international news station. In any case, it didn't place Hurley as being in Korea.

RichardChesterton

10-14-2005, 07:30 AM

Dudes....seriously....

Artistic license anyone???

The whole scene would have been silly if he started talking gibberish and Jin understood it...

It was a dream.

scubagert

10-14-2005, 10:32 AM

Hurley's dream was just a cool twist on how we always see people that speak other languages speaking in English in dreams. They just twisted it and started making the dreamer speak the other language.

BTW, Locke doesn't ACTUALLY have one solid black eye and one solid white eye. And Walt doesn't speak backwards. :)

Now if you'll excuse me, I have to return to my regular job of defending my Hanso = Hitler theories...

You can dream weird stuff. That's believable. You can't dream in another language and actually speak that language fluently without really speaking that language fluently. It is totally a different subject to talk about other dreams like black and white eyes, or Claire getting stabbed with a knife. That is capable of being imagined and therefore dreamed. However, you can't just sit there and imagine yourself speaking Korean and actually start speaking sentences. That's the only point I'm trying to make on this thread.

The same could be said for the Walt on the milk carton deal... Hurley didn't know that Walt is missing either. But does Hurley have some kind of psychic powers or was that just for our entertainment as well? Right now, thats left for us to decide.

Now having said that... I agree that maybe the writers wanted to make it more entertaining than gibberish for us. If thats the case then so be it. But I'm left wondering. Thats all.

conspiricytheory

10-14-2005, 10:37 AM

ennui108

10-14-2005, 11:33 AM

Can't believe this is being argued. It is a dream and in a dream anything can happen. Whether is makes sense or not. I can't see this being significant. I do realize this is Lost, but I can't believe it really matters. I just think it was a way to have a nice teaser about Jin knowing English.

In a dream, anything can happen if you can imagine it. You cannot imagine a foreign language and have it come out correctly. I would agree with the artistic licence thing, except that Hurley also saw Walt on the milk carton. I think that the island gave him the vision of Walt as well as a few Korean phrases. The question is, what was the island trying to tell him with it? That Jin speaks English? Maybe, but I hope not.

Remeber, we've already seen at least one prophetic dream on this island. It's not a huge stretch to believe that this is one too.

darkpiranha

10-14-2005, 11:52 AM

scubagert

10-14-2005, 11:59 AM

Yeah! What this guy said!

I still think we're all getting our chains yanked by Scubagert. :)

You see, it's a DREAM, and in a dream.... eh... nevermind.

Dark, you're saying something different than Richard - the post you quoted. I agree with Richard that the writers might want to entertain us and show that Hurley's speaking. I'm willing to compromise with you guys on that. :biggrin: But outside of this show, the issue makes no sense. In a dream, you can't speak a foreign language (that you don't know) fluently. Otherwise, you should have that knowledge outside of your dream and should be able to speak it regularly.

Ok, you confused me. You edited your post while I was responding to it. :biggrin: I must have been dreaming the old post.

ennui108

10-14-2005, 12:15 PM

Okay.. I can grant that it might have been a dream induced by the island itself. I can buy that. But there's NO WAY that Hurley ever spoke Korean or that he's psychic.

I can handle the island-induced dream theory.

I agree with you here. I highly doubt that Hurley speaks Korean. Not only would it be too convenient, but why would he keep it a secret?
Prophetic dream is my best guess.

Noeland

10-14-2005, 12:16 PM

scubagert

10-14-2005, 12:21 PM

ennui108

10-14-2005, 12:33 PM

Of course, the writers are out for surprise. Right now, no one (besides me it looks like :) ) expects Hurley to be anything else than a Clucky guy winning the lottery.
I tend to lean towards Noeland's idea here. Hurley just might be a lot more into things than we know right now. Hurley doesn't have a twisted past so far. It would be fun to see his other side. For instance, what if Hurley bought the box company to fire his old boss - Randy? Hurley was getting into the corporate environment by the end of his first flashback eppy. He could easily be a world traveler and have some moderate proficiency in other languages.

I still think it would feel "too convenient" and therefore would fall under the catagory of bad writing. But I suppose that it's possible. Still, I can't think of any reason for Hurley to hide a language skill that could have helped him translate to Sun and Jin early on (before everyone knew that Sun spoke English). Hurley hasn't hidden his slightly "geeky" past, and several "geeky" people I know like to learn Asian languages (mainly Japanese, but Korean is possible). It wouldn't have to be explained though his lotto win.

fak

10-14-2005, 12:44 PM

Hurley repeatedly incorrectly referred to Jin and Sun as Chinese, and not as Korean. If he could speak Korean then he's working really hard to cover it up. He has a history of covering up facts about himself (his real name, how much he is worth, that he was in a psych ward) but the's also confided these things to people.

10-14-2005, 01:02 PM

Please don't reiterate " It's a dream" I know that.
As stated before if you do not know a language you can not dream that you speak it fluently
and Actually speak it. What Hurley was speaking was correct Korean.
He could dream that Jin spoke to him in English or even Spanish because he speaks these 2 languages. But if he has no knowledge of Korean than it would be an impossibility.
So there is some significance to this scene or the writer screwed up. Which I have come to believe does not happen often.

fak

10-14-2005, 01:08 PM

10-14-2005, 01:19 PM

fak

10-14-2005, 01:27 PM

Rhodaaaa

10-14-2005, 01:27 PM

While it is true that if you hear a language often enough you begin to pick it up yourself, it is HIGHLY unlikely that after only a little over a month Hurley suddenly knew enough Korean to be speaking it in a dream as he did.

The only reason he was on Korean TV was that they were showing him winning the Lotto. The video was of him in California being asked about winning.
My question here is why would a Korean television station care about an American winning the lotto?

j7hubbs

10-14-2005, 01:58 PM

scubagert

10-14-2005, 02:07 PM

I will repeat, you can think you are speaking a different language in your dream but it is imposable to do so correctly and or fluently.
People who speak other languages hardly ever dream in another language other than there native tongue.
So the writers either flubbed this or it has a specific meaning.

Thank you. My point exactly.

While it is true that if you hear a language often enough you begin to pick it up yourself, it is HIGHLY unlikely that after only a little over a month Hurley suddenly knew enough Korean to be speaking it in a dream as he did.

My question here is why would a Korean television station care about an American winning the lotto?
Again, thank you! I've wondered why they would have him on Korean TV from the beginning. It makes no sense. As an American, I don't remember ever seeing who won the Italian lottery. You?

I completely agree with Rhodaaaa that a Korean television station would not care enough to show an American winning the lotto, unless of course the American in question had some sort of tie to Korea. So far we have Hugo appearing on Korean television and also speaking Korean in a dream of his. Are there any other ways we can link him to Korea? I think many people may be wrongly overlooking this connection.

And finally, thank you. :biggrin: Where have you guys been this whole thread? I've been dying here. Thanks for coming to the rescue.

ennui108

10-14-2005, 02:08 PM

If the jackpot is big enough, other countries will cover it. I've heard about a 100 million dollar winner from Mexico and a powerball winner from Sweden (I think it was Sweden). If it happens to be a slow news day, I could see it happening.

scubagert

10-14-2005, 02:10 PM

Ok, so that maybe it. Still, not conclusive enough to rule out that he may have other ties to Korea.

creme

10-14-2005, 03:16 PM

I think this is an oversight on the writers part. You can dream that you speak a foreign language but the words you dream would be gibberish unless you either spoke that language or were repeating something you had heard in real life.

Why? Anything can happen in a dream. It's what the subconcious believes is happening that makes the dream seem real, not what the concious mind is actually capable of.

Hurley may not (and in my opinion does not) speak Korean, but in a dream world he would believe that he could both speak and understand it. Well, actually I think he didn't believe it in the dream. He was as astounded and confused as we are.

Anyway, are you all on the same island that I'm on?

creme

10-14-2005, 03:18 PM

I think if you read tha lastest Rolling Stones mag you will change your mind. they say that there is no master plan that detailed. Everything doesn't mean something.

It was just a writers devise to show things as stange for Hurley. If he spoke jibberish it would have confused the audience. People would be saying, "hey! that's not Korean!" :rolleyes:

Both JJ Abrams and Damon Lindelhof refused such statements made in the RS interview by former creatives co-worked David Fury. There are discussions about this and links to appropriate sources in the Oriention Forum, search Rolling Stone.

10-14-2005, 03:19 PM

5 days into a German exchange, I dreamt in German, I was even thinking in German and I'm not that fluent in the language. Freaked me out :) If you could post your back-up for it being impossible to speak languages they don't know, whilst dreaming, that'd be handy.

Please and thank you :)

Sorry did not mean to sound snippy - just doing a few things at once here and none of them well it would seem :drowsy:

The human language is a learned set of patterns. A few of the main things that distinguish human language from other animal communication is namely grammar and syntax. Those of us that speak English, German would be easier for us to learn. The two have a common base of grammar and the way sentences are structured.
The Asian languages such as Korean are very different in grammatical and syntactical structure that most westerner find it had to learn. Hurley would not be able to dream he speak Korean and actual really speak it.
The patterns of the language processors in his mind would not be able to randomly adjust to this totally different pattern of thought. If this was over looked by the writers then it is a pretty big ooops. If not it is a pretty big clue.

"Up through the Mists of Time", chapter 6 of Grooming, Gossip and the Evolution of Language. Harvard University Press, 1996.
Lewin, Roger. Human Evolution. Mass., Blackwell Science, 1999.

Foundations of Language: Brain, Meaning, Grammar, Evolution

creme

10-14-2005, 03:22 PM

BTW, Locke doesn't ACTUALLY have one solid black eye and one solid white eye. And Walt doesn't speak backwards.

I'm just totally STUNNED that this is even up for debate. And I'm more stunned that I'm involved in that debate!

This cracks me up. I'll one up you DP, I can't believe I'm still debating this same question 9 months later. (Refer to the arguments in the ...in Translation thread).

The context of the Korean television spot was very clear based on the news ticker, which identified Hurley as being in Los Angeles. He was not in Korea.

creme

10-14-2005, 03:24 PM

Okay.. I can grant that it might have been a dream induced by the island itself. I can buy that. But there's NO WAY that Hurley ever spoke Korean or that he's psychic.

I can handle the island-induced dream theory.

He could be psychic, he could have psychic dream elements and be totally unaware of the power.

creme

10-14-2005, 03:27 PM

Hurley is a coward. It was established very clearly that fear runs his heart. It was also established that he keeps everything to himself. I think that not only could he know several other languages, but he may well know why they are on this island.

Where do you get that it's been established that "he keeps everything to himself?"

Dr. Arzt said quite clearly, "If you want to keep a secret, don't tell the fat guy." Clearly, Hurley has shared confidences before. I think he was making an effort to "obey" Jack on this order, having been charged with a great responsibility. He's also really disturbed about the connection between the hatch and the numbers, which gives him good reason to try to keep things quiet until he can figure out more what's going on.

He has tried to share his numbers secret with Lostaways, and they have brushed him off as nuts or a liar.

creme

10-14-2005, 03:29 PM

Of course, the writers are out for surprise. Right now, no one (besides me it looks like :) ) expects Hurley to be anything else than a Clucky guy winning the lottery.
I tend to lean towards Noeland's idea here. Hurley just might be a lot more into things than we know right now. Hurley doesn't have a twisted past so far. It would be fun to see his other side. For instance, what if Hurley bought the box company to fire his old boss - Randy? Hurley was getting into the corporate environment by the end of his first flashback eppy. He could easily be a world traveler and have some moderate proficiency in other languages.

Dude,

Hurley didn't buy the box factory, his accountant/investors did. That is made very clear in context when his accountant reviews his holdings with him during the Numbers episode.

Seriously, you are really reaching on this whole thread.

sier

10-14-2005, 03:34 PM

If the dream is being interpreted by Hurley (which it is) and he is "speaking korean" in his dream then it only makes sense that he would be speaking it. If we were watching this from a pure unbiased narrators point of view and he started speaking it, that wouldn't sense. But we aren't. We are seeing this from Hurley's point of view so, right now, Hurley is the narrator. This is why the Korean is correct, but Hurley cannot actually speak Korean. This is all told from Hurleys point of view.

That's my take on it anyway. I dont think there is some big dark deep mystery as to why he suddenly knows Korean, especially when its in a dream sequence and it the narrator is the person having the dream.

But that doesnt mean I discount the "Hurley has ties to Korea" idea. I just think the Korean speaking segment is nothing but in Hurleys head, so him speaking jibberish that is supposed to be Korean doesnt make much sense. He can speak Korean in his dreams because its his dream. He could say anything and it should still be seen by us, the viewer, as Korean since he's the one determing the rules and laws of his own dream.

BrownEyedGrrl

10-14-2005, 04:09 PM

Don't know if this has already been stated in this thread or not, but I definitely think there is a connection of some sort between Hurley and Jin, possibly through Jin's father-in-law. I think that all the people in the dream sequences are important to the others in the same dream, in one way or another.

I would like to think that Hurley could speak Korean, just because that would be cool. :biggrin: But, this is also clearly another weird island dream. I mean, after all Walt is shown as "MISSING" on the milk carton, and Hurley has no idea that Walt has been taken yet. Also, the first thing he eats in the dream is a candy bar, and the implications of the scene with him and Rose doing the inventory, is that he seems to see them then, for the first time.

ETA: I agree with Sier- Hurley could have very well been speaking jibberish in his dream, but because it's HIS dream, to him, it's perfect Korean. Remember the Seinfeld episode where Jerry keeps having a dream with some alien spouting the most hilarious joke he's ever heard? But, he keeps forgetting it when he wakes up. So, he finally keeps a pen and paper by his bed, and records the joke as soon as he wakes up laughing. When he reads it the next morning, he realizes that's it's unfunny and nonsensical. But, in his dream it was hysterical. :lol:

scubagert

10-14-2005, 04:15 PM

Dude,

Hurley didn't buy the box factory, his accountant/investors did. That is made very clear in context when his accountant reviews his holdings with him during the Numbers episode.

Seriously, you are really reaching on this whole thread.

Ok, I forgot he was surprised when he found out he owned a box company. That was just my little theory any way about why Hurley's boss was the same as Locke's. No reason to be condescending. That still doesn't change the fact that Hurley can't speak Korean in a dream without knowing Korean. Now, if those subtitles are in his dream and he's really speaking gibberish but he knows what he's saying because of his English subtitles - that I might believe. But otherwise, its either a screwup by the writers or Hurley has a gift - a la the milk carton, knowing Korean, and the Apollo bars.

creme

10-14-2005, 04:16 PM

creme

10-14-2005, 04:18 PM

Ok, I forgot he was surprised when he found out he owned a box company. That was just my little theory any way about why Hurley's boss was the same as Locke's. No reason to be condescending. That still doesn't change the fact that Hurley can't speak Korean in a dream without knowing Korean. Now, if those subtitles are in his dream and he's really speaking gibberish but he knows what he's saying because of his English subtitles - that I might believe. But otherwise, its either a screwup by the writers or Hurley has a gift - a la the milk carton, knowing Korean, and the Apollo bars.

Accept my apologies for sounding condescending, that is not my intent. I'm just passionate and wordy. And I say dude a lot, for real.

I'll defend this issue from every angle possible though, because I feel strongly that you are wrong.

What you don't seem to understand here is that Hurley isn not actually speaking Korean in the dream. He is dreaming that he is speaking Korean. There is a big difference.

scubagert

10-14-2005, 04:20 PM

Aside from the fact that one would think if Hurley could speak Korean that he would not have gone through the painstaking communications faux pas during the infamous "Pee on It!" fishing scene.

Hurley was starving and wanted Jin to teach him to fish. That scene was one of the ones that started the whole "Jin speaks English" argument (later confirmed as a non-issue in in Translation) because of the look that Jin gave Hurley when he said, "Your wife is hot."

Still, there's no convincing some people.
Creme, this all makes sense. I'm not calling you out saying your ideas are dumb. BUT, that was the past. I'm just saying its impossible to dream in a foreign language and not speak that foreign language. Maybe Sun taught him some words. I'll accept that. Maybe he's psychic. I'll accept that. It does seem that he didn't know Korean in the timeframe you're quoting. I'll accept that. But that doesn't explain how he knows Korean now, and he HAS to know some Korean now for him to dream what he did.

creme

10-14-2005, 04:22 PM

That's cool. We can call a truce, and please know that I'm open to be convinced if you ever have concrete evidence that either one of them actually speaks the other's language. (I mean fluently; obviously Jin is starting to learn English now).

Karri

10-14-2005, 05:00 PM

creme: just wanted to point out the little blue multiquite button. Just so you don't have to post multiple times in a row in order to respond to everyone. :)

creme

10-14-2005, 05:05 PM

Thanks Karri,

Obviously I'm a notorious serial poster when I'm trying to catch up on threads. I didn't realize this was a function.

I just found the button, will try it next time.

sier

10-14-2005, 05:09 PM

And thanks for pointing that out to me as well..haha.

creme

10-14-2005, 05:10 PM

Yah, now I'll have 80 foot long posts.

Etienne_72772

10-14-2005, 05:50 PM

Just to throw another log on the Fire.

I am completely with Sier, Creme, DarkPirahna, and anyone else who says that Hurley cannot speak Korean, but he can in his dream.

First, from personal experience, I have had dreams where I spoke fluent (whatever), and woke up in the morning saying to myself, whoa--that was weird, I was speaking fluent (whatever). It doesn't mean I was actually speaking it, or understanding it. I just thought I was speaking it and understanding it. In my dream, that meant I could actually speak it and understand it. It doesn't matter if I actually speak the language in real life.

Hurley spoke it, and understood it because he thought he was speaking and understanding it. That's all. No big mystery here.

He actually did speak Korean for the benefit of the audience (remember, who isn't there in his dream), but we are meant to experience the scene from Hurley's perspective, which means that we are to believe that he believes that he can speak Korean, even though he can't. Got it?

blondefilmgirl

10-14-2005, 06:58 PM

First, from personal experience, I have had dreams where I spoke fluent (whatever), and woke up in the morning saying to myself, whoa--that was weird, I was speaking fluent (whatever). It doesn't mean I was actually speaking it, or understanding it. I just thought I was speaking it and understanding it. In my dream, that meant I could actually speak it and understand it. It doesn't matter if I actually speak the language in real life.

Glad I'm not the only one!!

scubagert

10-14-2005, 11:56 PM

I just don't understand how thats possible. I guess you could think you're speaking the other language in your dream, but in actuality its gibberish and you know what you're saying. But we see Hurley's dream. Its not gibberish.

darkpiranha

10-15-2005, 12:11 AM

(looks up from desk, blinks confusedly several times, looks around room to see if anyone else is hearing this...)

That's my little homage to the British version of "The Office" where the young guy, Tim Canterbury, has the most hilarious double and triple take whenever someone says something unbelievable.

I'm just baffled that an adult (I'm assuming scuba is an adult) can honestly believe that it's IMPOSSIBLE to dream in a foreign language. It's a DREAM. And not just a dream, but a MADE-UP dream. A dream concocted and scripted by writers. It's unequivocably just the writers and producers of the show coming up with a cool twist on a dream sequence.

Now don't make me go over there and open up a can...

(I'm just having some fun Scuba, don't take any of it seriously or personally. But that said, you are wrong wrong wrong wrong.)

Robinhood56

10-15-2005, 12:12 AM

Since most people rarely remember that much about a dream, it shouldn't seem too strange.

Like Etienne_72772 said, for our sake he is speaking acurate Korean but in a real dream he probably wouldn't remember any words, just that he was speaking Korean and Jin, English.

The dialog and translation was for us.

scubagert

10-15-2005, 12:44 AM

I might buy that as long as everyone agrees that in real life one cannot dream in a foreign language and not know that foreign language.

Etienne_72772

10-15-2005, 02:50 AM

Scuba--I would agree with that. As I think about it, I believe the dream that I spoke fluently in another language was Spanish (it was a while ago). I cannot speak Spanish. But in my dream, from what I remember, it sure sounded like Spanish to me. I could understand it and speak it. But the point is, I wasn't speaking Spanish. I can pretty much guarantee I wasn't, because I don't know Spanish. But I thought I was, and believed it--and in a dream, you don't need anything more.

The reason "we" (the audience) hear Korean is because we experience Hurley's dream as if we are Hurley. Hurley, in his dream, can speak Korean. It doesn't matter whether he actually was or not. When he spoke those words, his unconscious mind, or subconscious mind, or whatever, told him it was Korean, and he, in his dream state, believed it. So when he spoke, it sounded like Korean.

The point is--it does not matter at all whether he can actually speak Korean or not. His brain told him he could, so that's what he heard. That's what we heard, because we heard it and saw it from his perspective.

darkpiranha

10-15-2005, 05:11 AM

The final word on this argument is that at this stage in human development, to my knowledge we haven't created a device that can record the images and sounds of dreams. Dreams (the real kind, not the TV kind) are just neurons firing and fragments of memories of the day's events being categorized by the brain and compartmentalized.

Who's to say ANYthing one way or the other. Maybe we CAN speak fluent languages in our dreams. Prove to me we can't. Not with logic, with concrete PROOF. Over the course of my life I've heard lots of languages. I've learned lots of foreign words, and promptly forgot 99.999999% of them. But at some point, my brain heard them, so theoretically, they're still in there somewhere. Maybe I'm remembering fluent Spanish in my dream, but in my dream I'm creating entirely different meanings for those words. I THINK I'm speaking fluent Spanish. The reality is, in our dreams, we aren't doing or saying anything. Just like if I close my eyes and try to imagine something. It's not actuallly happening, and I'm not actually doing it. And the entire time I'm attempting to imagine ONE thing, say trying to remember a scene from Star Wars or something (something I have memorized forwards and backwards), the entire time, I'm having all sorts of OTHER memories and mental pictures and mental sounds intruding on that memory. I want to just remember the Death Star battle, but images of the Cloud City lightsaber battle keep popping in. As hard as I try, I can't MAKE my memories or daydreaming stay linear.

TV just makes an ATTEMPT at trying to simulate what a dream is KIND of like.

Now.. I'm outta here. It's late, I'm exhausted, and the minute I shut my eyes and fall asleep, I'm planning on performing a flawless rendition of Verdi's "Les Vêpres Siciliennes" opera. I'll be performing all the parts myself AND playing all the musical instruments. In the morning, prove to me I didn't.... :)

Good night, ya'll.

LostPack

10-15-2005, 06:12 AM

I will repeat, you can think you are speaking a different language in your dream but it is imposable to do so correctly and or fluently.
I disagree with that statement for several reasons. Whatever you think is true - is true in a dream within the context of your dream. If someone dreams they are speaking Korean in a dream, they are speaking whatever their subconscious interpretation is of doing so. Keeping in mind that a dream is a state of mind characterized by abstraction and release from reality, anything at all is possible in a dream. I will repeat, you can speak any language in your dream and in your mind, you do so correctly and fluently since its in your mind and whatever you interpret speaking that language to be is how you're doing it. In Hurley's case, there are several things to be considered.
1. He is a tv show character and therefore can have his dreams filmed and then shown on tv
2. He speaks fluently in another language and has convenient captions appearing on the bottom of the screen to have the audience viewing his dream understand what is going on.
3. There was no attempt at anytime to make the audience believe that this was not a dream or pure fantasy. There was similarly no attempt to make anyone think that Hurley could speak Korean outside of this dream.
If he had dreamt that he could fly by flapping his arms and that was captured by tv camera and shown to the audience, how many people would be debating if he's been keeping his secret ability to fly a secret?
People who speak other languages hardly ever dream in another language other than there native tongue. So the writers either flubbed this or it has a specific meaning.
I'd love to see your sources for this statement. Suffice it to say that it completely contradicts everything I've learned throughout my undegrad and graduate studies and plain old experience over the years as a counselor - where dream content was often discussed. So I really would like some specific source to see how the writers may have flubbed this.
I'm not trying to challenge you for the sake of doing so - but I think it's important to back up a statement with something concrete.

granulated

10-15-2005, 06:33 AM

He also ate (had choco-sex with !!) an Apollo bar in the dream, and it's clear from later events that he hadn't yet seen them.

http://img418.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dreamapollo9wj.jpg

10-15-2005, 01:17 PM

First off, one would ask, if referring to dreams what state of dreaming do you mean?
There are a few. Lucid dreaming would be different than REM dreams.
These are the languages that are spoken in my immediate family
English
German
French
Dutch
Spanish
Korean
And 2 dialects of Chinese
With most speaking more than 2 of these languages. We have had this discussion among ourselves a few times over the years and it has always been the same. (Almost always)
The dreams are in their native language.
Why I think this?
I stated my remarks here
http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showpost.php?p=545119&postcount=46

If you have research to show me that we have been mistaken all these years
Just point me in the right direction. I am always up for expanding my knowledge. :smile:

As for Hurley:
The reason I questioned the language issue in the first place is because it did not look,
to me, like the intent of the writers was, as a lot of people her keep saying, just a dream.
Not with Walt on the milk carton and the fact that Jin has the exact bruise on his face as he does on the other side of the island.

Edit: opps, I forgot Italian

Carolyn53115

10-15-2005, 01:34 PM

Still, I can't think of any reason for Hurley to hide a language skill that could have helped him translate to Sun and Jin early on (before everyone knew that Sun spoke English). Hurley hasn't hidden his slightly "geeky" past, and several "geeky" people I know like to learn Asian languages (mainly Japanese, but Korean is possible). It wouldn't have to be explained though his lotto win.

have you ever seen the Manchurian Candidate? You can do all sorts of things without knowing about it!!

ennui108

10-15-2005, 01:38 PM

Never seen it. How do you mean?

10-15-2005, 01:46 PM

have you ever seen the Manchurian Candidate? You can do all sorts of things without knowing about it!!

It is funny you mention this movie. I brought this up early in the first season and someone almost chewed my head off!
It would fit into the pseudo science theme.

Carolyn53115

10-15-2005, 01:51 PM

In the movie...

the whole crew of men are kidnapped and brainwashed in Korea. The government makes the ulitimate killin machine (Raymond Shaw) and all they remember is some supposed "attack" where a bunch of people died. In reality they were not in an attack where their men died, Raymond Shaw was asked to kill his own men to make sure he was brainwashed correctly. The only place they can remember what really happened is in their dreams.

It is hilarious-the original version with Frank Sinatra was banned for 30 years because it talked about Commies in the Senate. There is a whole scene with all the leaders of the Commie world, but from the soliders point of view they think they are attending a Ladies Garden Club meeting about roses or something. You HAVE to see it.

Nacho

10-15-2005, 01:55 PM

yeah...still never seen it...explain
anywho... we all know he is speaking korean or at least thinks he is right...ok... now lets stop arguing about wheter this is possible and think ... what does this MEAN? it cant have been in there just for the comedy when jin said "no your speaking korean"...which i must add was funny...
i have no idea what this could mean but if someone wants to get this started that would be great
EDIT: jk! you explained while i was posting...hehehe

Carolyn53115

10-15-2005, 01:55 PM

It is funny you mention this movie. I brought this up early in the first season and someone almost chewed my head off!
It would fit into the pseudo science theme.

Why would someone chew your head off? Prolly because what you were saying did not match up with what they were saying, not for mentioning the movie.

It is one of my favorites. I LOVE the mom!! Angela Lansbury is awesome!!

To anyone that has mommy/son issues you should see THIS movie LOL

darkpiranha

10-15-2005, 04:02 PM

Oh! And another thing. (this is fun)

In your dreams, you don't see yourself in third person or from other angles. You see your dreams as if through your eyes and your point of view. You know the only time you see other angles in dreams?

That's right. On TV. Because that's how TV works. TV distorts reality and takes massive creative license in order to get to the heart of what a particular moment is supposed to be showing.

scubagert

10-15-2005, 06:04 PM

If he had dreamt that he could fly by flapping his arms and that was captured by tv camera and shown to the audience, how many people would be debating if he's been keeping his secret ability to fly a secret?

Your point made sense (from the opposite side that I believe) until you said this. You can dream anything that you can imagine. I can imagine all I want that I can fly, but I can't in reality. I cannot - nor can anyone else - imagine themselves speaking a foreign language and actually be speaking real sentences in that foreign language (unless you know that language).
I was willing to compromise with some ideas, but you guys go back to this. YOU CANNOT ACTUALLY DREAM IN A FOREIGN LANGUAGE WITHOUT KNOWING THAT LANGUAGE. The only way that is possible is as mentioned in above posts - you think you're speaking the language but in actuality its gibberish.

scubagert

10-15-2005, 06:09 PM

darkpiranha

10-15-2005, 06:55 PM

Sigh.....

LostPack

10-15-2005, 07:06 PM

Sigh.....
Agreed. I'd say it was semantics, but its more of a need to argue the color of air. So I'm going to end my participation by saying..

OMG hurley knows korean - even 2 koreans!

darkpiranha

10-15-2005, 07:36 PM

Agreed. I'd say it was semantics, but its more of a need to argue the color of air. So I'm going to end my participation by saying..

OMG hurley knows korean - even 2 koreans!

AGREED!

I think we've all made our points (like, fifty times). The defense rests (because it's exhausted).

See you all in the other threads!

scubagert

10-16-2005, 09:46 AM

Oh well, I guess this will never be solved until we find out this season. Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't. I certainly agree it makes no sense up until now that Hurley knows Korean besides the fact that he was on Korean TV. But the dream....

Peacock Spring

10-16-2005, 07:31 PM

You can dream weird stuff. That's believable. You can't dream in another language and actually speak that language fluently without really speaking that language fluently. It is totally a different subject to talk about other dreams like black and white eyes, or Claire getting stabbed with a knife. That is capable of being imagined and therefore dreamed. However, you can't just sit there and imagine yourself speaking Korean and actually start speaking sentences. That's the only point I'm trying to make on this thread.

I'm sure this has already been said, but.....

There is no difference. If you can dream about being able to fly (and it's so real that you think, in your dream, "Oh, cool! Now I know what to do in order to fly; when I wake up I can go try it!"), or being able to run EXTREMELY fast for miles and miles without ever getting tired (two of my favorites), then why couldn't you dream that you were speaking a foreign language?

You're not actually flying in the dream, and you don't actually have to be speaking a foreign language in the dream, either...........you just have to think you are doing those things in the dream. You can be lying flat on your back in bed, and in your mind be soaring through the mountains, or you can be lying there with your mouth shut (or for sleep-talkers, be mumbling nonsense) and in your mind you're speaking perfect Korean. It's not what you're actually doing that counts, it's what you think you're doing. In the dream, you may have convinced yourself that the nonsense you're babbling is Korean. But of course, they would be a confusing concept for a scene on TV. They have to show us the dream as Hurley saw it, within the world of make-believe.

I think that's what people are trying to say. It may hold some meaning for the show, sure....but I don't think it necessarily means that we're going to find out that Hurley speaks Korean, and I don't think it's a goof, either.

Peacock Spring

10-16-2005, 07:57 PM

I will repeat, you can think you are speaking a different language in your dream but it is imposable to do so correctly and or fluently.

It seems as if a few people have recounted personal experiences on here that disprove this theory, but for the sake of argument, let's say it's true. You say that the dreamer believes that he is speaking another language, but if it were heard audibly, it would basically be gibberish. If a television producer were trying to get the message across to viewers that this was what was happening, how else would he do it without showing us the whole scenario from the dreamer's standpoint, where the fluent speaking is going on as if it were real? This is a real question; I'm not being argumentative.

(And btw, I know I'm late to the party on this thread and I apologize....it's that pesky "real life" thing that prevents me from reading everything as soon as it's posted.) :biggrin:

Peacock Spring

10-16-2005, 08:16 PM

In your dreams, you don't see yourself in third person or from other angles. You see your dreams as if through your eyes and your point of view. You know the only time you see other angles in dreams?

That's right. On TV

Hmmmm, sorry, gotta disagree with you there. A lot of mine are more third-person than first-person. One in particular that stood out to me because it was so scary: I woke up to find a strange man in my room, and it scared me so badly that I fell off onto the floor on my side. As soon as I did, someone else came into my room, so I hid under the bed. Some pretty scary stuff happened after that, and I was so terrified I couldn't breathe, hoping no one would find me under there, but I was seeing all the action in the room as clearly as if I were not under the bed.

I guess there are no hard and fast rules for dreams, lol.

LytaAlexander

10-16-2005, 08:29 PM

Um, one question. Does any of you in this "debate" speak Korean?

10-16-2005, 08:51 PM

In dreams you can dream of seeing yourself. Because you mind has a concept of what you look like. To imagine you can fly or run really fast is not a complex concept.

It seems as if a few people have recounted personal experiences on here that disprove this theory

It has nothing to do with theory it has to do with how the brain functions
You can dream you have preformed brain surgery and in your dream think you know all about brain surgery. That does not mean you are even close to really knowing a thing about it.
The concept of language is so complex that science still have no definite idea how it is accomplished. Different languages have vastly different complexity's to them, that unless we are taught then we can't even come close to comprehending them.
Therefore my post was addressed to the fact that people said that Hurley or anyone could dream in another language and do it fluently with out fluent knowledge of the language.
Even then the mind usually reverts to its most dominate language.

Then I addressed the post that said this is just the writers way of letting us know what was said in Hurley's, that might be true but I posted
it did not look, to me, like the intent of the writers was, as a lot of people her keep saying, just a dream.
Not with Walt on the milk carton and the fact that Jin has the exact bruise on his face as he does on the other side of the island.

creme

10-16-2005, 11:29 PM

It seems as if a few people have recounted personal experiences on here that disprove this theory, but for the sake of argument, let's say it's true. You say that the dreamer believes that he is speaking another language, but if it were heard audibly, it would basically be gibberish. If a television producer were trying to get the message across to viewers that this was what was happening, how else would he do it without showing us the whole scenario from the dreamer's standpoint, where the fluent speaking is going on as if it were real? This is a real question; I'm not being argumentative.

(And btw, I know I'm late to the party on this thread and I apologize....it's that pesky "real life" thing that prevents me from reading everything as soon as it's posted.) :biggrin:

The creators did the gibberish thing in ... in Translation to indicate that Jin didn't understand the English being spoken around him. The gibberish represented the confusion he actually heard.

People still insisted (probably do to this day) that he speaks English.

Really, Peacock Spring, take my advice and stop banging your head on this brick wall before you end up with welts the same size as mine.

10-16-2005, 11:46 PM

Peacock Spring

10-17-2005, 12:21 AM

I said more than that ( Hurley speaks English) in my post
I thought the purpose of the boards was to discus things.
Discussing means point and counter point.
Not, oh just don't pay any attention to them, they just don't think the way we do.
I have always been taught that that is the tactic taken by those with no basis for there point of view.

Humm...I guess I was wrong, the boards are really just for those with all the answers.

Well, I can tell you that they definitely aren't for the overly sensitive. ;) Of course the purpose is to discuss things. I think everyone here knows that, and I'm afraid that your last sentence above might be construed by some posters more as a bit of a pout than as a contribution to that discussion. But of course, without facial expressions and tone of voice, it's certainly sometimes hard to tell on here.

In your previous post, you did quite a bit of discussing about how the brain works, and although I have a friend who is a teacher who specializes in that, the few tidbits I'm able to retain when she tells me things, although fascinating, definitely don't make me anywhere near an expert. You sound as if you were possibly hinting that you are(?), but you never came right out and gave us much information where that was concerned, so it's a little hard to tell if that's what you were trying to say.

In your previous post, you also seemed to have a bit of a problem with the word I used, "theory", to describe another poster's assertion that it's impossible to see yourself in a dream. You refuted that by saying it wasn't theory, it was how the brain works. Yet in that same post, you implied that to see oneself in dreams was a common occurrence. Unless you totally misunderstood for what situation I was using the word "theory" (as in unproven assumption....and it sure can't be proven if it simply isn't true, as has been shown by several posters' personal experiences), then it seemed as if you were contradicting yourself there.

IMESHO (in my ever so humble opinion), I think probably it all boils down to the producers trying to figure out how to tell us something, or to pave the way for some future event(?), by putting it into a dream (which, as others have pointed out, isn't even a real dream, it's a TV dream...so it's probably not going to follow "dream rules", whatever those are, lol). Then they have to get that dream across to viewers without confusing the *bleep* out of all of us, and that can't be an easy task. I think if we expect this show to be an exact science, we're going to be in turmoil just about every week.

Am I being "discussy" enough for you? :biggrin:

darkpiranha

10-17-2005, 12:22 AM

I can't wait for the day on the show when someone has a dream where they speak Klingon or Elvish and everyone starts freaking out that they must be elves or Klingons, since, you know, they spoke that language in their DREAM.

And I just want to say once and for all, that I really believe that Hurley does speak English, and not just in his dream.

He also speaks Canadian, Australian, Irish and Scottish.* And he may not be fluent in Spanish, but I bet he's picked up a few words and phrases from his mom. Counting Korean, Hurley's Septlingual! (btw, I'm a bilingual illiterate... I can't read or write in two different languages...)**

And you know what else? I had a dream the other day that this thread no longer existed. But how could I have had a dream about this thread not existing if it does indeed still exist? How could I envision a world without the "Hurley Speaks Korean?" thread when it clearly exists in the world? The only way this could be is if this thread actually doesn't exist.

OH, and thanks for reminding me about the gibberish that Jin heard. So according to general line of theories on this thread (I'm not talking to the other rational ones out there, just the, um, less rational ones), everyone around Jin was literally speaking that gibberish. Those nonsense words were coming out of their mouths, so therefore, it HAD TO BE WHAT THEY WERE SAYING. Right? How could they be speaking in that gibberish language unless they had learned that other language and could speak it? And how do you explain they only spoke that other strange language for that one segment of time? The rest of the time they spoke regular English. How odd... It must mean something.....

Oh...wait. It was just a creative way to simulate on TV how something sounded and felt to a character. So Jin DIDN'T actually hear those words in gibberish-ese... that's just what it sounded like to him. I get it.... it was dramatic license.... how silly of me to insist otherwise.

ehem.

Stick THAT in your pipe and smoke it!

* (before I get any nitpicky posts 'correcting' me about the Irish or Scottish actually having their own language, you know what I meant in my joke, so please restrain yourselves.)

** (c) 1992 Steven Wright

blondefilmgirl

10-17-2005, 12:54 AM

darkpiranha

10-17-2005, 01:07 AM

I had a dream that I and the guy from FireFly were using AK-47s. But I've never used an AK-47 nor have I met the guy from Firefly.

I wonder if this means that I actually know the guy from Firefly and can use an AK-47. ;)

Seriously, I don't think there's anything to Hurley speaking Korean, guys. I'm amazed the thread has went this long.

I think it's due to the dilligence (stubbornness?) of those defending this thread past all point of logic. (lol... if THAT isn't an inflammatory statement...)

For the rest of us, it seems SO obvious that we just can't believe it, and we keep coming back to see if sanity has somehow been allowed to creep in.

Ultimately, it will be impossible for either side to reach a common ground. They are using strict literal interpretation to explain a creative decision on a TV show. And not just any creative decision, a creative decision about stuff taking place in a DREAM. A DREAM!! In a dream, ANY crazy old thing can and does happen, especially on TV. Why is this so hard?? Why???? (excuse me while I hyperventilate for a bit...)

C'mon people...

It boggles the mind that this has to be explained....

capemom77

10-17-2005, 01:24 AM

Ok, we all saw Hurley's dream where Jin speaks English. Then Jin says, "No Hurley you're speaking Korean" or something of that nature. Then Hurley starts speaking Korean!!! I realize this is just a dream but you can't speak a foreign language in a dream or anywhere else if you don't know the language.

If Hurley knows Korean, why hasn't he been talking to Jin and Sun this whole time?

Are you people really serious!?! O.K. yea, you think if Hurley spoke Korean, he'd be working at a fast food chicken place?

It was a dream!!! We don't know if Hurley was really speaking Korean or not(unless you know how to speak Korean). You can do all kinds of crazy crap in your dreams. I can't fly when I'm awake; but I can fly like its nobody's business when I'm dreaming! I can even walk around nude in department stores without getting arrested in my dreams. My point is you can do whatever you want in your dreams. Yes, you can even speak a foreign language in your dreams. Obviously, it is not going to be correct. But that wouldn't matter, the only one you are convincing that you are speaking that language is you in your state of sleep!

(In Napoleon Dynamite's voice): GOSH!!!

Barrister

10-17-2005, 01:32 AM

darkpiranha

10-17-2005, 01:33 AM

(In Napoleon Dynamite's voice): GOSH!!!

lol... amen to that.

darkpiranha

10-17-2005, 01:47 AM

Humm...I guess I was wrong, the boards are really just for those with all the answers.

I fully admit I don't have all the answers. But I DO have THIS answer...

capemom77

10-17-2005, 01:51 AM

If this has been said already, I apologize.

I think the fact that Hurley hears Jin speaking English when he is, in reality, speaking Korean, proves that Hurley doesn't understand Korean.

If he did, then Jin could've spoken actual Korean and Hurley would have understood it.

No offense, I understand what you are saying but........

It was a dream!!!!!

(In Napoleon Dynamite's voice): This is the worst post ever. You guys are retarded. IDIOT!

(In the Voice of Kip): Your mom speaks Korean. :)

darkpiranha

10-17-2005, 01:53 AM

Please stop.. you're making me spray diet coke all over my monitor.

Peacock Spring

10-17-2005, 01:59 AM

No offense, I understand what you are saying but........

It was a dream!!!!!

(In Napoleon Dynamite's voice): This is the worst post ever. You guys are retarded. IDIOT!

(In the Voice of Kip): Your mom speaks Korean. :)

"What are you gonna dream about tonight, Napoleon?"

"Whatever I feel like dreaming about! GOSH!"

:biggrin:

I'm going to bed now and probably dream about ligers, cause they're pretty much my favorite animal......

Ok, enough silliness. I'm going to go check my dream manual one more time before I turn in so I don't accidentally dream something I'm not supposed to.

JUST kidding.....g'night all.

creme

10-17-2005, 11:52 AM

CaseyGP

10-17-2005, 12:08 PM

I hope you're kidding. How do you speak real words from a foreign language in a dream or out of a dream if you don't know that language? You might can make up stuff, but he was speaking real Korean. Not possible unless he knows Korean.

I think you may be reading just a little too much into it. Of course with 'Lost' anything is possible...but I'm fairly certain it was just a dream. Think about it--there's no way Hurley can know that Walt is missing (again...you never know with this show), but Walt's face is on the milk carton he drinks from. Explain that.

Get_LOST_17

10-17-2005, 12:14 PM

I believe Walt is on the Milk cartoon b/c it is Walt using his "abilities" to try to alert everyone that not only he has been taken but that Jin, Mike and Sawyer are also in danger... the same way Shannon saw him in the woods...

10-17-2005, 12:44 PM

I love this thread.

Me, there's been a lot of marvelous discussion and point-counter point on this thread. Just because you can't convince others of the rightness of your argument doesn't mean we aren't reading and trying to comprehend.

creme

It is not that.
I was really not trying to convince just discuss. After all I watch Lost because it is intelligent TV.
Something Very Rare!
Sarcastic, condescending and smarmy remarks are not a discussion and I guess I was annoyed. It seemed that was all people were coming up with." It was a dream, get over it"
I really object to the "Idiot." reference
I get the idea that it was a dream. I had said as much in another post.
I was not saying Hurley speaks Korean I was not arguing Hurley speaks Korean but no one seemed to hear that point.

What I was trying to put forth was:
If the writers wanted us to just get the fact that it was a dream, why not use Swayer, Micheal or for that fact Jack or Kate. ( I think the guy in the chicken suit gave this point away nicely)
Why use Jin?
Why was Walt's picture on the carton and how did Hurley dream of Jin's bruise.
I added into my discussions why these things stood out as oddity's. To bring up what they might mean and why they chose these things in particular.
But all that came of it was the above posts.

In your previous post, you did quite a bit of discussing about how the brain works, and although I have a friend who is a teacher who specializes in that, the few tidbits I'm able to retain when she tells me things, although fascinating, definitely don't make me anywhere near an expert. You sound as if you were possibly hinting that you are(?), but you never came right out and gave us much information where that was concerned, so it's a little hard to tell if that's what you were trying to say.

I did a bit more than discuss. I also posted articles to read to back up my thoughts.
It does not take an expert to grasp the basics of the Physiology of the Brain 101.
It is taught at many schools on many levels of education.

So with that I will take my leave.

darkpiranha

10-17-2005, 12:45 PM

Hurley never acknowledged that there was a picture of Walt on the milk carton. That was in there entirely for the audience to get a chuckle from.

creme

10-17-2005, 05:22 PM

Hurley had become particularly close to both Jin and Walt. This episode shows that he is pathologically afraid of change, and the departure of Jin and Walt present a major change on the island, a big loss of close friends of Hurley and a gaping unknown future.

It makes perfect sense to me that they'd show up as representatives of his subconcious fears and obsessions.

To him, Walt is missing, it makes total sense that there would be a subtle reference to that in the subconcious.

Jin has had the crap beaten out of him more than just about anybody else on the island, it's totally in context that he shows up bruised in the dream. Heck, Hurley probably saw him bruised up more often than not IRL.

HurleyBurley

10-17-2005, 05:36 PM

Oh! And another thing. (this is fun)

In your dreams, you don't see yourself in third person or from other angles. You see your dreams as if through your eyes and your point of view. You know the only time you see other angles in dreams?
Which brings up another point that I'm not totally sold on. You guys say that we see Hurley's point of view in his dream and that is how we understand what he's speaking when he speaks Korean. If we saw Hurley's point of view, we wouldn't actually see Hurley at all. We're not seeing what Hurley's seeing in his dream. We're in a 3rd person view of the dream, meaning we should be hearing gibberish if that was actually what he was speaking in the dream. How do you like that? :biggrin:
I do, actually. My point of view is always shifting. Sometimes I see things from my perspective and sometimes I see me. And I'm always editing as the dream goes on. So I might speak in Korean but then later decide that it was really Spanish I was speaking. Or sometimes what I perceived to be me earlier turns out to be someone else. Or vice versa. Dreams are weird.

MightyFulkron

10-17-2005, 05:47 PM

I completely agree with Rhodaaaa that a Korean television station would not care enough to show an American winning the lotto, unless of course the American in question had some sort of tie to Korea. So far we have Hugo appearing on Korean television and also speaking Korean in a dream of his. Are there any other ways we can link him to Korea? I think many people may be wrongly overlooking this connection.

I don't know if someone already said this, but they might have shown Hurley out in front of his house because his grandfather dropped dead in the middle of the interview?

I know this sounds cruel, but how many times have you seen a video of someone getting hit in the nuts in America? Or like one of those clips from around the world show. I can picture the Bob Sagget voice saying in the background, "Wooohooo, who would have thought the fat guy wasn't the one that had a heart attack?"

Its just a dream people, Hurley does not speak Korean.

HurleyBurley

10-17-2005, 05:49 PM

What I was trying to put forth was:
If the writers wanted us to just get the fact that it was a dream, why not use Swayer, Micheal or for that fact Jack or Kate. ( I think the guy in the chicken suit gave this point away nicely)
Why use Jin?
Why was Walt's picture on the carton and how did Hurley dream of Jin's bruise.
I added into my discussions why these things stood out as oddity's. To bring up what they might mean and why they chose these things in particular.Maybe

Hurley never acknowledged that there was a picture of Walt on the milk carton. That was in there entirely for the audience to get a chuckle from.Maybe

I believe Walt is on the Milk cartoon b/c it is Walt using his "abilities" to try to alert everyone that not only he has been taken but that Jin, Mike and Sawyer are also in danger... the same way Shannon saw him in the woods...Maybe.

HurleyBurley

10-17-2005, 05:50 PM

I don't know if someone already said this, but they might have shown Hurley out in front of his house because his grandfather dropped dead in the middle of the interview?

I know this sounds cruel, but how many times have you seen a video of someone getting hit in the nuts in America? Or like one of those clips from around the world show. I can picture the Bob Sagget voice saying in the background, "Wooohooo, who would have thought the fat guy wasn't the one that had a heart attack?"

Its just a dream people, Hurley does not speak Korean.Or maybe they were watching CNN. Can you not get CNN in Korea? Wait a minute are we talking North Korea or South Korea?

scubagert

10-26-2005, 06:08 PM

Etienne_72772

10-26-2005, 08:36 PM

I still stand by my original thoughts. You cannot speak a foreign language fluently in a dream. Maybe it was for our viewing pleasure. Maybe it was a mistake that the writers wouldn't think anyone would notice. Maybe we find out later that Hurley does speak Korean. I don't know. I just know that my first speculation here (you cannot speak a foreign language fluently in a dream) is true.

And I stand by what I was saying--that you can do anything you want if its your dream. It doesn't matter whether you really can do it ir not.

I dont' know if I posted yhis earlier, but soon after I posted my last statement on this a week or so ago, I dreamt I could play a very complicated piano piece that I simply can't play. It sure sounded like the right music. And my fingers felt like they were hitting the right notes. So in my dream, I could play the music. In reality, I can't. What's so hard to figure out about this?

scubagert

10-27-2005, 10:18 AM

You are missing the point. You can imagine playing the piano and hearing the music because you CAN imagine the music. You can imagine that you can fly, or kill a boar, or eat a cardboard box. That doesn't mean you can do it in reality but these are all dreamable. Thats what makes them dreams. What you cannot dream about things that you can't imagine. It is impossible to imagine (or dream) something that you don't know. Like, you could not imagine or dream that you proved a complicated calculus theory and actually have the details of that proof of theory in your dream, because you can't in reality solve that theory (I'm assuming you can't - you get my point). Likewise, you cannot imagine or dream that you speak a foreign language and actually speak that foreign language with actual fluent words in your dream because you have no knowledge of that foreign language in reality.
The concepts that you are referring to are imaginable and therefore dreamable.
I've figured this out from the beginning of the thread. Its others (like you) that seem to be getting confused.

darkpiranha

10-27-2005, 10:46 AM

Dude.... ...... sigh....

fak

10-27-2005, 10:51 AM

scubagert

10-27-2005, 11:48 AM

I am saying that Hurley either is psychic or has an island vision (makes sense with the Walt on the milk carton thing) or he knows Korean. I don't know which of these 3 but I know that it HAS to be one of these 3 because you can't just dream in a foreign language.
DarkPirahna, I'm sorry you hate me, but I'm only speaking the truth. I don't know any other way to put it.

sier

10-27-2005, 12:57 PM

The only real problem I have with the "it's not possible" argument is that many times I have "read" signs and papers in my dream, but it has been stated over and over again that you actually cannot read anything in your dreams due to the part of your brain that does the dreaming not having that function. I believe it is entirely impossible to actually "read" anything, but my brain had obviously coneverted whatever the hell I was dreaming about into me thinking I was actually reading.

I remember waking up from these types of dreams and thinking "what the hell?" because I know that reading text is impossible in dreams. But in my dream, I simply *knew* that I was reading, whether I actually could or not. My brain simply filled in the gaps that were impossible for it to do because I wasnt really doing it in the first place. This doesnt mean I was reading anything at all (because my brain is incapable of it), but in my head, in my perspective, I was reading.

I find this answer to be 100 times more probably than making Hurley psychic or having him learn korean the entire time. We are not seeing his dream from a perspective of reality. We are seeing the dream as Hurley sees it (and no, this doesnt mean that because we can see Hurley that proves we arent). Hurley is speaking Korean in his dream because its his dream and he sets the rules for what is real and whats not. The korean in his dream is NOT to be treated as "Korean". It is Hurley. Plain and simple. The fact that we, the viewers, hear Korean is simply to show that *thats what he was dreaming about*. Nothing more.

At this point I'm almost tempted to find some boards with psychologists and/or people who specialize in Brain Sciences (like K Channels, etc) because this "this is how the brain works - period" argument is wearing thin. We hardly know how the brain works in its entirety.

I understand you are adamant about your point of view, but its the science that you are bringing into the mix here that confuses me.

fak

10-27-2005, 01:15 PM

I We are not seeing his dream from a perspective of reality. We are seeing the dream as Hurley sees it (and no, this doesnt mean that because we can see Hurley that proves we arent). Hurley is speaking Korean in his dream because its his dream and he sets the rules for what is real and whats not. The korean in his dream is NOT to be treated as "Korean". It is Hurley. Plain and simple. The fact that we, the viewers, hear Korean is simply to show that *thats what he was dreaming about*. Nothing more.

That's exactly what my feelings are. We are seeing the dream from Hurley's perspective (sorta). All that is important is that Hurley dreams that he is speaking Korean. The fact that actual Korean is used is for the viewer's benefit, so that we understand that Hurley is dreaming that he can speak Korean.

Ooh, 100th post - go me :)

ApolloBear

10-27-2005, 01:28 PM

Originally Posted by sier http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/images/FuselageGreen/misc/backlink.gif (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?p=569280#post569280)
I We are not seeing his dream from a perspective of reality. We are seeing the dream as Hurley sees it (and no, this doesnt mean that because we can see Hurley that proves we arent). Hurley is speaking Korean in his dream because its his dream and he sets the rules for what is real and whats not. The korean in his dream is NOT to be treated as "Korean". It is Hurley. Plain and simple. The fact that we, the viewers, hear Korean is simply to show that *thats what he was dreaming about*. Nothing more.

Yep.

Totally agree.

Glad I don't do everything I dream!

EEEEK!

hehe

Namaste

:cool:

scubagert

10-27-2005, 05:18 PM

fak

10-28-2005, 06:36 AM

But he is actually speaking Korean and we see him in 3rd person. Is this just a dream?

I often see myself in my dreams - a sort of out-of-body experience. But then I've been known to be other people in my dreams (as have friends of mine), so maybe it's not even Hurley's dream. I think it is though as otherwise whoever was dreaming it would have to know a lot about Hurley's life to date.

If it isn't a dream/hallucination, what else could it be?

scubagert

10-28-2005, 09:42 AM

I was thinking more on the lines that maybe it was a vision or something.

fak

10-28-2005, 09:59 AM

I was thinking more on the lines that maybe it was a vision or something.
Do you mean a premonition? Otherwise I think it falls into dream/hallucination.

scubagert

10-28-2005, 10:08 AM

Yes thats what I mean. Otherwise, how do you explain Walt on the milk carton, or Jin bruised up, or his fluent Korean? There's too many things that he couldn't possibly know otherwise.

darkpiranha

10-28-2005, 02:36 PM

One thing that has never been brought up in this... debate... is: Do you really think that the writers and producers had this debate when they were creating this? Of course not! They're writing a TV show and they make up the rules! They were using their imaginations and WRITING a story. And not just writing a story, but writing a dream sequence. In a dream sequence, ANYTHING goes. I can't recall the last time EVER in relation to any dream experience, be it in a book, TV show, movie, or actual dream that there was any room for questioning if something that occurred in a dream was possible or not. Ever.

If someone came up to me and said "Hey.. I had the weirdest dream that I was speaking Korean," never in a million years would I ever say, "Nope.. not possible...UNLESS you really know Korean, you can't possibly have dreamed it. Just not possible."

It's a dream! (at this point, I'm close to passing out from the trauma to my head from banging it against the wall)

I think what's got me and everyone else riled up (and keeping this thread going long past its 'use by' date) is the assertion that something is 'possible' or 'not possible' or that there are hard and fast RULES to what can or cannot occur in a dream. That's just the silliest thing I've ever heard.

And no, I don't hate you, I've just never seen anyone so stubbornly defend a defenseless and unprovable opinion before.

I can guarantee the writers at NO POINT debated what was or was not possible in a dream sequence, and as such has NO bearing on the plot.

(THUMP THUMP THUMP... nope.. banging my head isn't helping.... sigh.....)

scubagert

10-28-2005, 04:12 PM

Apparently we're not the only one's who disagree on this topic. I've looked up "dreaming in different languages" and there are several philosophers and foreign language professors who disagree with each other on this case. Most say that to dream in a foreign language is a good sign that you are fluent in that language. Others have opinions that you can just dream in that language by just being familiar with the language. Who knows. At least we're carrying on a discussion of a much higher philosophical question that I thought I would never consider on a thread of a TV show.

I would like to throw this in the mix though. I still think his dream means more than just being a dream... Here is the interpretation of the Korean TV show that was playing last season when Hurley was on Korean TV.

TV audio:
Woman's voice - "Tomorrow..."
Man's Voice - "...is going to get rich... He was living an ordinary life up till now... But everything is going to change now. Most people dream the numbers...
Woman's voice "Tonight..."

Sound familiar? It was in Hurley's dream....

Peacock Spring

10-28-2005, 10:53 PM

I agree with you guys. It could possibly be that Hurley is speaking actual Korean for our viewing pleasure. If thats the case, ok... As long as everyone acknowledges that its not actually possible to speak actual Korean in a dream when you don't know Korean.

I've said, and I still think, that if a person dreams they are speaking in a foreign language, it very well could be that they only THINK they are, and therefore it seems like the real thing to them, and that that may be the difficult-to-convey message that the producers were trying to get across.

But having said that, I do believe that there are just too many unexplained things in this life for this issue to be so cut-and-dried. I've heard of much, MUCH weirder things happening than people speaking in a language that they don't know, and having other people understand it, while they were awake (and we can choose to believe it or not, but I know that at least one person has claimed that that has happened to them), so why couldn't something that freaky happen while we're dreaming? No offense at all, but it seems to me as if you're almost trying to force people to confess that you are right........and they might confess it, but really, what difference would it make? Who can ever really know for sure? Life is full of things we can't understand, and that don't fit the rules, in wakefulness and in sleep.

But he is actually speaking Korean and we see him in 3rd person. Is this just a dream?

I'm not sure how else they would have shown us Hurley's dream, besides 3rd person, since we're not him (assuming that you believe people can only see their dreams from their own POV, although that's been disproven on here by several of us).

Do you mean that if it was really his dream, they should have shown it from the point of view of the cameraman, and let us know that we were seeing the dream through Hurley's eyes? That would be very confusing; I don't think I've ever seen that done in a dream sequence on TV before. Usually they let us know it's a dream by showing us the dream, and then letting us see the dreamer waking up......and that's what they did with Hurley.

scubagert

10-29-2005, 11:54 AM

No offense at all, but it seems to me as if you're almost trying to force people to confess that you are right........and they might confess it, but really, what difference would it make? Who can ever really know for sure? Life is full of things we can't understand, and that don't fit the rules, in wakefulness and in sleep.
No offense taken. I'm trying to defend my opinion. Everyone jumped on me like they couldn't understand my opinion and that it was stupid. I think its perfectly logical to wonder how a person could speak a foreign language in a dream when his/her brain doesn't actually have the knowledge of that foreign language. I STILL don't understand that, even if you do give me cases of that happening. Your opinion is a bit different than mine or that I was just referring to. I tend to acknowledge your opinion with mine because I do believe you can think you're speaking the language in a dream but it actuality its gibberish and you just THINK you're speaking that language. (But we saw Hurley's dream and what he said wasn't gibberish)

Do you mean that if it was really his dream, they should have shown it from the point of view of the cameraman, and let us know that we were seeing the dream through Hurley's eyes? That would be very confusing; I don't think I've ever seen that done in a dream sequence on TV before. Usually they let us know it's a dream by showing us the dream, and then letting us see the dreamer waking up......and that's what they did with Hurley.
Point taken... It would be confusing. As would be the case if Hurley just spoke gibberish. I admit that both of these things might be done for our viewing pleasure. I am being a lot more compromising than you guys, but you fail to agree with me it seems out of spite.

darkpiranha

10-30-2005, 12:06 AM

Okay... I'm going to boil this debate down to one point, and I'm going to go out on a limb and say that I speak for everyone on my side of the argument.

Scuba, here's what I want you to state unequivocally:

Are you saying that if I say I dreamed something, regardless of what it is, (but let's say in this case, I say I dreamed I spoke fluent Korean, but I can't actually speak Korean), are you telling me that you can 100% say that I didn't dream what I say I dreamed? That scientists have dream science down to such perfection that it can be stated without question that something is or is not possible in a dream? You know this for a fact, and can offer rock-solid proof that something in a dream is possible or not.

You can tell me that if I claim I dreamed something, you can tell me that no, I didn't dream it because it's impossible.

I think this is what we are all arguing over. You are saying that something is impossible, and we are saying that it either is possible, or can't be proven one way or the other.

If you can offer up PROOF of your claim, then we will all shut up (can I speak for all of 'us' here?). If you can't, then all we ask is that you acknowledge that what you are arguing is just an opinion you have, one that is based on your own logic.

Just to sum up, we say that ANYthing is possible in a dream and to claim that someone did or didn't dream something or couldn't possibly dream something is a totally baseless claim. We believe you are claiming that, without a doubt, there are certain things that are impossible in dreams and that it is impossible for someone to imagine certain things.

What say you to this?

(With that mighty challenge, Dark Piranha removes his black leather glove and with a stinging Korean profanity*, tosses it at the feet of Scubagert.)

* (I know it's a profanity because that's what the subtitles in my imagination tell me I said)

Peacock Spring

10-30-2005, 12:57 AM

I tend to acknowledge your opinion with mine because I do believe you can think you're speaking the language in a dream but it actuality its gibberish and you just THINK you're speaking that language. (But we saw Hurley's dream and what he said wasn't gibberish)

Point taken... It would be confusing. As would be the case if Hurley just spoke gibberish. I admit that both of these things might be done for our viewing pleasure. I am being a lot more compromising than you guys, but you fail to agree with me it seems out of spite.

I just want you to know, I completely understand what you've been trying to say, and although I've gotten a little silly about this a time or two, I really have not disagreed with some of what you've said out of spite at any time (that's just me speaking for myself here). It's so hard to get nuances across effectively on here, so I apologize if it seemed as though I was being stubborn for the sake of being stubborn!

I think we can agree that, as you said above, the way that this dream sequence was done was probably for our benefit; to make us understand what was going on in the least confusing way possible. Without a direct word from the producers, or barring any future revelation to the contrary on the show, that's probably about as good as we can hope for right now. :)

scubagert

10-30-2005, 09:38 AM

Dark, I think you just like being confrontational. I don't have rocket science hard proof that you can't dream things you have no knowledge of. If you read my last posts I acknowledge that philosophers disagree with this point just like we are doing now. It seems that the majority agree with me though. I think I am perfectly logical to wonder how its possible though. It really makes no sense to be able to dream something that your own brain has no knowledge about. I don't think you could dream you're flying an F-15 Strike Eagle and actually visualize the actual flight panel and actual buttons you need to push and the correct order you need to push them, because most people have never seen this panel and surely don't know what buttons to push to get it off the ground. Maybe you're right - if so, I don't understand (and I think I'm right for not understanding) how thats possible unless its some kind of psychic power thats within your dream.

Ok, to a much less confrontational and more trying to have a civilized conversation - Peacock. Thank you for clearing that up and for talking to me without trying to pick an argument. Maybe the case is that the Lost team made this dream sequence like they did just to make it easier to understand for us. I can understand that. It makes sense that we saw Hurley in 3rd person view and that we could hear both Korean and English, when Hurley apparently doesn't know Korean. I guess the Walt on the milk carton thing, and Jin bruised up thing, and Apollo candy bar foreshadowing was just for our entertainment too? Just easter eggs on the show for our viewing pleasure you think? I don't know... The whole dream sequence still seems kind of fishy to me. I'm 50/50. I hope the writers do eventually explain some of this at least.

LostPack

10-30-2005, 11:14 AM

I'm going to give it one more shot here and try to clarify what some of us are trying to say (or at least what I've been trying to say).
I think at this point we all agree that what we saw was a dream. We can say that because at the end of the scene the chicken guy had Kate's voice and we saw Hurley waking up.
We can also say that seeing the chicken guy was part of that dream. Jin was there with chicken guy - and we can safely say that Jin too was part of the dream.
Going one step further, everything that was said during the time period in question was part of that same dream.
This dream is different than our personal dreams because it was filmed and shown on tv. Since there hasn't been any method created yet for people to have the content of their dreams filmed or the conversation within their dreams documented, we can say that whatever we saw was a combination of a writer, director, actor, producer and editor - or multiples of such who created a fantasy segment to entertain us. It is in fact part of a tv show that has a specific goal of wanting to entertain its viewers.
While everything may be important and may be significant on the show, not everything can or should be taken literally and not everything has underlying meaning. Using an example - thinking of the show as a whole pecan pie; each and every pecan doesn't necessarily have it's own message or meaning. Many pecans are just there to make it look good and taste good. Some might be there just to remind us that it is a pecan pie. Others may have accidently fallen out of the bag by the baker and don't fit the continuity of the other pecans. SO its important to keep in mind that overall it is a whole pecan pie and is the sum of all of its parts - not just one pecan or one slice.
Having hopefully established that we're discussing a dream, and that this dream is an artistic creation and not reality, we move ahead to the content of the dream.
I've mentioned chicken guy and Jin. In the dream, chicken guy was in the hatch. I think we can come to the conclusion that at no point was he ever really there. Nor were any of the food items or Walt on the milk carton since the milk carton was part of all of this. In the dream, Jin is speaking very clear English. We know this because the camera has filmed it - which we also know isn't possible since we don't have a real way of having a dream filmed by camera or by other means. However, it was entertaining to see this and nice to hear Jin say something that non-korean speakers could understand from him. However, that doesn't mean that the character Jin can speak english.
We saw Hurley eating all sorts of food and stuffing his face with things that probably don't exist in the hatch (and we're talking about the hatch as it exists within the show) It is unlikely that there's a box with a prepared meal ready to eat or an entire bowl of frozen ice cream with whipped cream. However, within his dream Hurley can come up with any combination of things to eat and using that dream camera, the viewers see that.
The most important part of this entire post is the dream camera and the viewers. Whatever the viewers see is 100% a result of the creative efforts of all the people mentioned before - from the writer to the editor. Since we can really not film dreams or what is said in dreams, we know that anything can be done in front of our dream camera. Just because we see Hurley pulling a complete MRE from a box, doesn't mean he is a magician or part of the military. Or that there are MREs there - or Walt milk cartons.
In our own dreams, we can dream anything and think what we are dreaming is actually correct. It is our own perception of things within the dream and there is no way to ever see what it is we're really seeing in our dream once we wake up. There is no dream capture camera capable of showing us the content - either visual or audio content outside of that dream. If I dream I am flying an F-15 Strike Eagle and visualize the flight panel - in my dream that would be what I thought that panel looked like. If I dreamed about flying, whatever I thought I was feeling would be representative of what I thought flying would be. If you centered a camera on me while I was dreaming, it would look to you like I was laying comfortably on my bed fast asleep. I might make some odd movements - but you'd have no idea what my dream mind was experiencing. If you viewed what I was seeing or hearing and saying in my dream, it could likely be nothing at all even close to what an F-15 was really like. But if I thought that was what I'm dreaming about - then thats what I'm dreaming about. And if a creative team wanted to convey that to its viewers, they'd probably show me dreaming about a real F-15 - even though I've never seen a real F-15 in my entire life and if I did outside of my dream would have no idea what I was seeing. If in my dream for whatever reason I believed that I was speaking Korean - it would be whatever Korean is to me having no knowledge of it - and I would think I was speaking it in my dream. And again, if a creative team wanted to convey this to my dream viewers, it would make me speak Korean for the camera - that doesn't mean that I can speak it or have any real knowledge of it.