IN MOS/MOF, didn't Shannon's dad come in to Jack's OR with another woman who was also quite seriously injured?? I remember Jack sacrificing the man to save the woman. Maybe I was high that day, but the woman has to be of some significance.


1. Was Sarah in Rutherford's car or her own?

The woman was Sarah........Jack married her.

Shannon's Dad was hit by the SUV that Jack's future wife Sarah was driving. He was alone in his vehicle. Jack worked on Sarah and in a way let Mr. Rutherford die. There was speculation that this would be a motive in Shannon's death, but she doesn't seem to know anything about Jack's involvement, having not noticed him walking by as another doctor informs her and her stepmother about Adam Rutherford's demise.

Cardie

Shannon's Dad was hit by the SUV that Jack's future wife Sarah was driving.
--but did someone else hit HER?
Do we know who actually caused the accident? Who ran into who in the first place? Or was there a third car in the accident? You know, someone who hit Sarah and caused her to run into Adam's car.
Many times, the person who causes the accident gets to walk away uninjured, or with minor injuries...if caught, they go to jail, not hospital.

So, were Sarah and Adam the only two involved in that accident? Do we know?

I thought Jack was told that Sarah's car blew a tire and hit the man in the SUV. I don't think Sarah was driving the SUV but the man identified as Adam Rutherford was.

thanks for the reminders. I editted my original post.

hmm... wasnt kate in some sort of a car crash when tom got shot, and kate ran??? could it have been the same accident? if it is, then kate could be blamed for adam rutherford's death, and sarah's injury and even jack's marriage to sarah... pretty cool if that happened.

I was thinking the same thing. Kate crashed into some cars. So she could have hurt Sarah and caused Adam to get rammed by the force of two cars.

Shannon's Dad was hit by the SUV that Jack's future wife Sarah was driving.
--but did someone else hit HER?
Do we know who actually caused the accident? Who ran into who in the first place? Or was there a third car in the accident? You know, someone who hit Sarah and caused her to run into Adam's car.
Many times, the person who causes the accident gets to walk away uninjured, or with minor injuries...if caught, they go to jail, not hospital.

So, were Sarah and Adam the only two involved in that accident? Do we know?


Perhaps someone losing the use of there legs in the accident? Hmmmmmm

I was thinking the same thing. Kate crashed into some cars. So she could have hurt Sarah and caused Adam to get rammed by the force of two cars.
One problem with this is that Kate's crash happened in Iowa and Sarah's was in California.

EMT: Her tire blew, car jumped the divider, went head-on with an SUV.

NURSE: BP's dropping.

JACK: Pericardial's pierced. Was she driving?

EMT: Yes, alone.

JACK: Where's the driver of the SUV?

[A man is wheeled in on a gurney.]

EMT #2: Adam Rutherford, 57, chest trauma, no breath sounds.

EMT: Her tire blew, car jumped the divider, went head-on with an SUV.

NURSE: BP's dropping.

JACK: Pericardial's pierced. Was she driving?

EMT: Yes, alone.

JACK: Where's the driver of the SUV?

[A man is wheeled in on a gurney.]

EMT #2: Adam Rutherford, 57, chest trauma, no breath sounds.

Perhaps someone losing the use of there legs in the accident? Hmmmmmm
Excatly! Adam Rutherford (the one in the ER) was said to have been hit by an SUV. But Adam Rutherford (the one that his wife and Shannon were told about) was said to be driving an SUV. I am still believing that there is mistaken identity with the Adam in the ER and the Adam that was married to Shannon's step-mother.

I'm holding onto the belief that the Adam Rutherford in the ER was Locke.

If I remember the scene right, isn't Sarah trying to talk when she is on the gurney in the ER after the accident? Jack leans down to listen to her, and one of the nurses asks what she is saying. Jack replies that "she said she has to dance on her wedding day", or something very similar. Does anyone else remember this?

Locke could not have been crippled in this accident.He said he had been in a wheelchair for 4 years. According to last night's episode this accident took place 2 or 3 years ago at the most.

From the discussion in the ER, it sounds like the only 2 people involved in the accident were Adam and Sarah. If Locke was involved, wouldn't he have been brought to the ER also. And every discussion I've heard said that Adam was driving the SUV and Sarah was hit by it.

Excatly! Adam Rutherford (the one in the ER) was said to have been hit by an SUV. But Adam Rutherford (the one that his wife and Shannon were told about) was said to be driving an SUV. I am still believing that there is mistaken identity with the Adam in the ER and the Adam that was married to Shannon's step-mother.



Hi all,
Just wanted to note that this is backwards. Adam Rutherford (in ER-MOS/MOF) is implied to be the driver of the SUV (Jack says "Where's the driver of the SUV" and the EMT is shown wheeling in a gurneyw/ Adam rutherford on it ..etc. In Abandoned...the Dr. tells Shannon & Sabrina that Adam was in a head on collision with an SUV. In Sarah's toast to Jack at rehearsal dinner she states she was driving her convertable, the tire blew out and she hit and SUV. If this is the case it seems there where 3 cars involved..2 SUV's & a convertable. Who was in 2nd SUV? Locke perhaps? Any thoughts?

Locke could not have been crippled in this accident.He said he had been in a wheelchair for 4 years. According to last night's episode this accident took place 2 or 3 years ago at the most.

Dang..forgot about this very good point...But I still think there was a 3rd car..Unless the writers just goofed on the continuity

Timing would suggest that is was not Locke. Locke was in a wheelchair by his own admission before the accident that involved Adam and Sarah.

"Sarah

Thank you. Wow, can I get another microphone? I think this one's been drinking. I little over two years ago, I blew a tire out - flipped over the center divider into oncoming traffic, and was hit head-on by an SUV. My back was broken. They all said it was irreparable. And then there was Jack. And he promised he would fix me, because that's the kind of guy he is. Because you are the most committed man I have ever known - because you fixed me, I will dance at our wedding. To Jack, my hero, Jack."

As you can see there is no mention of a convertible. This seems rather straight forward. She blew a tire her car flipped over into on comming traffic and an SUV driven by Adam Rutherfordhit her head on. The result was Adam died because Jack chose to save Sarah. I don't think there is anything else here. This was only done to show the indirect connection between Jack and Shannon. Of course this is only my opinion.

Or maybe they were both driving SUV's.

Look at the context. Jack doesn't care what Sarah was driving, he's already working on her. He doens't know anything about the other person except that he was in an SUV.

Shannon and Boone's mother don't care what Adam was driving, they already know.

I don't understand why people think Jack "chose" to save Sarah over Mr. Rutherford, thereby killing him. Jack's attention was on Sarah, and another team was working on Rutherford. No ER doc is responsible for TWO critically wounded patients at the same time. (And it certainly seems as if by the time Rutherford got to the ER he was pretty much beyond saving.) Some posts make it seem as if the two were brought in, equally injured, and Jack made a decision that Sarah would get care and Rutherford would get none. Rutherford was being attended to, just not by Jack.

Who was in 2nd SUV? Locke perhaps? Any thoughts?

I don't know about Locke being in an SUV because doesn't he drive the little VW bug? (Correct me if I'm not remembering this accurately.) I don't really see Locke as being an SUV driver, he could have been a passenger though.

I don't understand why people think Jack "chose" to save Sarah over Mr. Rutherford, thereby killing him. Jack's attention was on Sarah, and another team was working on Rutherford. No ER doc is responsible for TWO critically wounded patients at the same time. (And it certainly seems as if by the time Rutherford got to the ER he was pretty much beyond saving.) Some posts make it seem as if the two were brought in, equally injured, and Jack made a decision that Sarah would get care and Rutherford would get none. Rutherford was being attended to, just not by Jack.

Exactly, thank you for saying that. Lost has got prople thinking so critically, they see things that never happened.

"Sarah

Thank you. Wow, can I get another microphone? I think this one's been drinking. I little over two years ago, I blew a tire out - flipped over the center divider into oncoming traffic, and was hit head-on by an SUV. My back was broken. They all said it was irreparable. And then there was Jack. And he promised he would fix me, because that's the kind of guy he is. Because you are the most committed man I have ever known - because you fixed me, I will dance at our wedding. To Jack, my hero, Jack."

As you can see there is no mention of a convertible. This seems rather straight forward. She blew a tire her car flipped over into on comming traffic and an SUV driven by Adam Rutherfordhit her head on. The result was Adam died because Jack chose to save Sarah. I don't think there is anything else here. This was only done to show the indirect connection between Jack and Shannon. Of course this is only my opinion.
BUT that's my point! The Adam Rutherford in the ER was said to be the driver of the SUV but the Adam Rutherford that his wife was told about was said to have been hit by an SUV. I don't believe that the writers would have made that kind of mistake!
Locke could not have been crippled in this accident.He said he had been in a wheelchair for 4 years. According to last night's episode this accident took place 2 or 3 years ago at the most.
Where does it say this all happened 2-3 years prior to the crash?
From the discussion in the ER, it sounds like the only 2 people involved in the accident were Adam and Sarah. If Locke was involved, wouldn't he have been brought to the ER also. And every discussion I've heard said that Adam was driving the SUV and Sarah was hit by it.
See what some are doing is taking what we've been shown as "all there is." But the fact that the Adam in the ER was driving the SUV and the Adam that his wife was told about was hit by the SUV should tell us that something is missing. To me it still backs up my theory that the Adam in the ER was not the Adam that his wife & Shannon were told about. And that we only saw Jack darting down the hospital hallway does not tell us if that Adam (who his wife was hearing about) was the same Adam as Jack was later told about. And we don't have proof yet as to whether Jack ever knew about this Adam that his wife was hearing about. For all we know, and it makes sense, when Jack saw the man that was ID'd as Adam Rutherford in the ER he may have never seen or heard of anyone else being involved in the accident as he went off to attend to Sarah. A third victim could have been brought in after he left or before he came into the ER.
Hi all,
Just wanted to note that this is backwards. Adam Rutherford (in ER-MOS/MOF) is implied to be the driver of the SUV (Jack says "Where's the driver of the SUV" and the EMT is shown wheeling in a gurneyw/ Adam rutherford on it ..etc. In Abandoned...the Dr. tells Shannon & Sabrina that Adam was in a head on collision with an SUV. In Sarah's toast to Jack at rehearsal dinner she states she was driving her convertable, the tire blew out and she hit and SUV. If this is the case it seems there where 3 cars involved..2 SUV's & a convertable. Who was in 2nd SUV? Locke perhaps? Any thoughts?
I got them switched around? Sorry! :smile: Thanks. But that is my point ... two different ways that the SUV was said to have been used with the same man ... not possible. Also, remember the doctor told Mrs. Rutherford that her husband stopped breathing at the scene of the accident. The Adam Rutherford in the ER was still breathing when he arrived. I still say there are 2 different men here and a bad case of mistaken identity.

Actually, when they bring Adam Rutherford in, he isn't breathing (MOSMOF):

EMT #2: Adam Rutherford, 57, chest trauma, no breath sounds.

The accident is 2-3 years ago because Shannon is 18 (20 on the island), and Desmond was on his Solo Race Around the World about 3 years ago.

I don't understand why people think Jack "chose" to save Sarah over Mr. Rutherford, thereby killing him. Jack's attention was on Sarah, and another team was working on Rutherford. No ER doc is responsible for TWO critically wounded patients at the same time. (And it certainly seems as if by the time Rutherford got to the ER he was pretty much beyond saving.) Some posts make it seem as if the two were brought in, equally injured, and Jack made a decision that Sarah would get care and Rutherford would get none. Rutherford was being attended to, just not by Jack.

EMT #2: Adam Rutherford, 57, chest trauma, no breath sounds.

JACK [to Intern]: Tube Mr. Rutherford while I...

INTERN: I can't intubate, you've got to.

NURSE: Dr. Shepard, her BP's 80 over 60.

NURSE #2: Dr. Shepard, his breathing's deteriorating.

JACK [deciding to work on the woman]: Okay, need a syringe -- big one. You, hold pressure. [He pulls the piece of the steering column out of the woman's chest.]

NURSE: 88 over 52, no radial pulse.

JACK: I know. I know -- sac's flooded. Where's that...

NURSE [handing him a syringe]: Right here. Got it?

JACK: Yep.

NURSE #2: Doctor, we're losing him.

[Jack continues working on the woman as we hear the sound of Adam Rutherford's heart monitor flat-lining.]

NURSE: BP stabilizing.

NURSE #2: Time of death 8:15am.

Jack did have to make a choice. Adam may have died even if Jack tried to work on him but he still made the choice to continue working on Sarah. The intern working on Adam Rutherford was not qualified to do the procedure. Jack was in charge. I don't think it's Jack's fault but he still did make the decision.

The 3rd car theory: 1st; Sarah is told her tire blew out, and the she hit an SUV head on.
2nd: When Jack asked where is the other driver, the gurney comes in and Adam Rutherford, age 57, is ID'd. They never actually say he was driving the SUV, it's set up so that we ASSUME IT.
3rd: Last night, the doctors clearly tell "Cruella Caryslie" that Adam was hit by an SUV.
That's 3 different cars!! It happened 2 years ago. Shannon said she's 18 last night, earilier says she's 20 and living on 'craphole island'. It could not have been Locke.
Who could it be in the SUV?
How about the marshall? He's the only one who's been seen driving an SUV. (although in Aussie) Agents are often seen driving SUV's, as standard issue vehicles. Since his SUV was bigger than the other cars involved, it's likely he wasn't badly hurt, so was not at the Hospital.

There was only 2 cars. Adam was driving the SUV that hit Sarah head on when her car jumped the center divider flipping into on comming traffic. There are only 2 people in the ER being treated. There is never any mention of another person or car being involved.

I don't understand why people think Jack "chose" to save Sarah over Mr. Rutherford, thereby killing him. Jack's attention was on Sarah, and another team was working on Rutherford. No ER doc is responsible for TWO critically wounded patients at the same time. (And it certainly seems as if by the time Rutherford got to the ER he was pretty much beyond saving.) Some posts make it seem as if the two were brought in, equally injured, and Jack made a decision that Sarah would get care and Rutherford would get none. Rutherford was being attended to, just not by Jack.
Couldn't agree more. Jack had committed himself to caring for Sarah at that point and since the other patient was already not breathing and there were other medical staff there, he didn't have a choice to make. He stayed with his patient. If the other doctors or ER staff were incapable of giving care - that's on their heads, not jack.

I'm also a bit confused about the obsession regarding this accident. There was a car accident. 2 victims were brought to the ER. One died. One lived. Quite frankly - it doesn't have any bearing at all on whats happening to the losties. The only significant parts are that Jack and Shannon crossed paths - Desmond and Jack crossed paths, Shannon's dad died, Sarah had a miraculous recovery, Jack met Sarah.. everything else -- at least for now-- is filler. It is what it is.

lostbylost! Whenever you get all 3 clues call me, I have a 'thinking chair', and since we are very smart, we can figure out 'lost' clues!

I might be a bit slow on the uptake here- hell, ill be the first to admit it, but can someone explain to me how the theory that 'Adam Rutherford' in the ER might have actually been Locke? I just dont get it? Whoever it was dies right there and then, and well, lets face it, Locke is quite clearly alive and kicking (no pun intended, well maybe a little). IF it was Locke in the ER whom they thought was Adam Rutherford, how can we explain that Locke is still alive? Maybe I have missed something big here...

I might be a bit slow on the uptake here- hell, ill be the first to admit it, but can someone explain to me how the theory that 'Adam Rutherford' in the ER might have actually been Locke? I just dont get it? Whoever it was dies right there and then, and well, lets face it, Locke is quite clearly alive and kicking (no pun intended, well maybe a little). IF it was Locke in the ER whom they thought was Adam Rutherford, how can we explain that Locke is still alive? Maybe I have missed something big here...

here's my explanation, no offense to anyone.

Some one just hit their crack pipe, then started typing babble! Locke is not Rutherford.

lostbylost! Whenever you get all 3 clues call me, I have a 'thinking chair', and since we are very smart, we can figure out 'lost' clues!

Can I be Orange Kitten?

Since we don't know what kind of car Sarah was driving, it is possible that they were both SUVs and Adam was hit by an SUV while he was driving an SUV.

You can. Join the club.

Since we don't know what kind of car Sarah was driving, it is possible that they were both SUVs and Adam was hit by an SUV while he was driving an SUV.

As rare as SUV's are, the chances of two in the same accident, just incomprehensible :biggrin:

I don't know about Locke being in an SUV because doesn't he drive the little VW bug? (Correct me if I'm not remembering this accurately.) I don't really see Locke as being an SUV driver, he could have been a passenger though.
Well, since it's said that Sarah hit an SUV head on and then Jack asks where the other driver is, it's more than assumption that it's the man on the gurney since he's the one they "introduce" to Jack in reply to Jack's question.
Actually, when they bring Adam Rutherford in, he isn't breathing (MOSMOF):

EMT #2: Adam Rutherford, 57, chest trauma, no breath sounds.

The accident is 2-3 years ago because Shannon is 18 (20 on the island), and Desmond was on his Solo Race Around the World about 3 years ago.
But that still doesn't prove that he's the man that was the one that stopped breathing at the scene of the accident ... it only proves that once in the ER, the man on the gurney had stopped breathing.
The 3rd car theory: 1st; Sarah is told her tire blew out, and the she hit an SUV head on.
2nd: When Jack asked where is the other driver, the gurney comes in and Adam Rutherford, age 57, is ID'd. They never actually say he was driving the SUV, it's set up so that we ASSUME IT.
3rd: Last night, the doctors clearly tell "Cruella Caryslie" that Adam was hit by an SUV.
That's 3 different cars!! It happened 2 years ago. Shannon said she's 18 last night, earilier says she's 20 and living on 'craphole island'. It could not have been Locke.
Who could it be in the SUV?
How about the marshall? He's the only one who's been seen driving an SUV. (although in Aussie) Agents are often seen driving SUV's, as standard issue vehicles. Since his SUV was bigger than the other cars involved, it's likely he wasn't badly hurt, so was not at the Hospital.
Everyone is taking the ages as if they were from one birthday to the next ... 3 years apart. IF Shannon was 18 (which she said she was) BUT she was just 18 and now she's 20 on the island but close to 21 ... that would be closer to 4 years than three. And by Locke saying he'd been in the wheel chair 4 years does not mean that he meant it literally. Not many people account for exact time spans (unless you have a baby and then we tend to count every month until they're about 3). So, if Locke had been in the wheel chair, let's say 3 years and 10 months, I don't think it would be odd for him to round it up to 4 years since he was telling this to the tour guide to try and persuade him to understand that he'd been in that chair long enough to be able to know what he could and couldn't do. I still think it's Locke in the ER and that there are 3 cars.
There was only 2 cars. Adam was driving the SUV that hit Sarah head on when her car jumped the center divider flipping into on comming traffic. There are only 2 people in the ER being treated. There is never any mention of another person or car being involved.
There doesn't have to be a mention of a third car in the ER. If Adam Rutherford was pronounced dead at the accident scene (meaning "time of death ... " stated and recorded at the accident site) he would not have been brought to the ER, he would have been taken to the morgue. If he was already in the morgue when the Dr. told Mrs. Rutherford and Shannon of his death, then the Jack we see dart down the hall was (most likely) enroute to the ER to take care of the other 2 victims and would have known nothing of the man that was in the morgue.

I am for the crack pipe theory.

Adam is Adam.
Locke is Locke
Sarah is Sara.
2 SUV's not 3
I am going to bed!
Goodnight!

But why make such a fantastic explanation when things seem so simple? Rutherford and Shannon were in an accident, and Rutherford died.

There's no reason to try and tie Locke into this. We have three accounts of the accident, and all three of them only mention two vehicles being involved. We know Sarah was alone, and there was no mention of a passenger with Rutherford. There's simply no reason at this point to try and force Locke into this scenario.

Everyone is taking the ages as if they were from one birthday to the next ... 3 years apart. IF Shannon was 18 (which she said she was) BUT she was just 18 and now she's 20 on the island but close to 21 ... that would be closer to 4 years than three.

You need to check your math.

Let's assume she has just turned 18.

She lives through her 18th year, and that is 1 year.
She lives through her 19th year, and that is 2 years.
She turns 20, and let's say she is toward the end of her 20th year on the island, that would be approaching 3 years. 21-18 = 3. In order to get 4 years in there to force your Locke theory to fit, Shannon would need to be approaching 22 years of age on the island.

You are trying too hard to force something that just isn't there.

Every episode this season, there's one head-scratching thread like this. There's no third vehicle, and even if there somehow happens to be a third vehicle, it's definitely not being driven by a guy named Adam who is actually Locke.

I have to think that this is a thread started just to elicit all of the comments like the ones that have appeared on this thread.

The simple fact of this is that everything conncted to this crash of any relevance has now been shown. Jack obviously has no memory or recognition that it was her stepdad in the other vehicle (and how would he remember, since he sees hundreds of patients a year, with thousands of family members, and the last thing he is going to remember is the relative of someone that he didn't work on that died immediately after being brought to the hospital.

Since Jack doesn't remember and won't remember, there is no one else to corraborate with. Boone is dead, and Shannon is dead. No one left alive that can say "hey... were you in the emergency room that day my stepdad died?" There's no more flashbacks for Shannon or Boone.

Unless they have Ghost flashbacks, and the ghosts of Shannon or Boone coming back from the dead to have a conversation with Jack to make him remember the time that her step dad died...

Let this thread go, people... I can guarantee you that the producers of this show will not spend another moment on this sub-story. We saw there was a pre-crash connection between Jack and Shannon. Mission accomplished.

Please.... I beg you....

^ Agreed 3 years at the most from the time Shannons dad dies/ Jack meets his fiance to the crash landing. If Locke was involved in the car crash, we would've had some clue by now, and there's none.

Jacks future wife hit and killed Shannons father. Between Jack and Shannons flashbacks we are given all the clues to piece that together. Cut and dry.

I think all of these past connections are just put in there to mess with our heads. They are just put there like those little deadends in mazes that seem to be going somewhere and then slam into walls. So you then have to backtrack and figure out just exactly how far back you have to go....

But why make such a fantastic explanation when things seem so simple? Rutherford and Shannon were in an accident, and Rutherford died.

There's no reason to try and tie Locke into this. We have three accounts of the accident, and all three of them only mention two vehicles being involved. We know Sarah was alone, and there was no mention of a passenger with Rutherford. There's simply no reason at this point to try and force Locke into this scenario.
Facts: The man in the ER was driving and SUV. The man talked about to Mrs. Rutherford was said to be hit by an SUV. How can these 2 be the same person? Can't be.
You need to check your math.

Let's assume she has just turned 18.

She lives through her 18th year, and that is 1 year.
She lives through her 19th year, and that is 2 years.
She turns 20, and let's say she is toward the end of her 20th year on the island, that would be approaching 3 years. 21-18 = 3. In order to get 4 years in there to force your Locke theory to fit, Shannon would need to be approaching 22 years of age on the island.

You are trying too hard to force something that just isn't there.
No. Year 18-19=1 yr. Year 19-20=2 yrs. Year 20-21=3 yrs. Year 21-approaching 22 (we don't know how close she is to 22) = nearly 4 years. My math is fine. :smile:

Not forcing anything. Just taking the facts and the possible years into consideration. As long as one Adam was driving and one Adam was hit by an SUV ... they cannot be the same person.
Every episode this season, there's one head-scratching thread like this. There's no third vehicle, and even if there somehow happens to be a third vehicle, it's definitely not being driven by a guy named Adam who is actually Locke.

I have to think that this is a thread started just to elicit all of the comments like the ones that have appeared on this thread.

The simple fact of this is that everything conncted to this crash of any relevance has now been shown. Jack obviously has no memory or recognition that it was her stepdad in the other vehicle (and how would he remember, since he sees hundreds of patients a year, with thousands of family members, and the last thing he is going to remember is the relative of someone that he didn't work on that died immediately after being brought to the hospital.

Since Jack doesn't remember and won't remember, there is no one else to corraborate with. Boone is dead, and Shannon is dead. No one left alive that can say "hey... were you in the emergency room that day my stepdad died?" There's no more flashbacks for Shannon or Boone.

Unless they have Ghost flashbacks, and the ghosts of Shannon or Boone coming back from the dead to have a conversation with Jack to make him remember the time that her step dad died...

Let this thread go, people... I can guarantee you that the producers of this show will not spend another moment on this sub-story. We saw there was a pre-crash connection between Jack and Shannon. Mission accomplished.

Please.... I beg you....

^ Agreed 3 years at the most from the time Shannons dad dies/ Jack meets his fiance to the crash landing. If Locke was involved in the car crash, we would've had some clue by now, and there's none.

Jacks future wife hit and killed Shannons father. Between Jack and Shannons flashbacks we are given all the clues to piece that together. Cut and dry.
How can both of you say that we've seen all there is to see on this? There is no way anyone but the writers and producers can know that. To make that claim is simply unfounded. As the saying goes, "It ain't over 'till the fat lady sings." So, until the show ends ... there is always a place for more info to be brought in.

And I don't think this thread was started to do any more than get the input of what others here think about the death. I've had this same discussion on other threads here so it's not a new theory for me. Until we find out exactly how Locke got in his wheel chair, I'll stick to this theory. For me, and others here at the 'Lage, it makes perfect sense. If it doesn't to some others, that's fine, but it's not wrong or right until it's spelled out one way or the other.

(Hands covering ears. Gollum voice)

Not listening... not listening.... not listening....

Facts: The man in the ER was driving and SUV. The man talked about to Mrs. Rutherford was said to be hit by an SUV. How can these 2 be the same person? Can't be.

Not forcing anything. Just taking the facts and the possible years into consideration. As long as one Adam was driving and one Adam was hit by an SUV ... they cannot be the same person.

Anam Rutherford was driving an SUV that was hit by another SUV. We have no idea what Sarah was driving and we know she was in another car involved in the accident with Rutherford so the most obvious explanation is that she drove the SUV that hit him.

Let me ask you this, why do you think Locke was involved, that any other driver was involved. There is absolutly no evidence to support that other then that Locke was paralyzed wich could have happen any of 1,000 different ways.

yikes! Never mind. after reading thru all of this thread, my head hurts. This is too complicated for me.

Anam Rutherford was driving an SUV that was hit by another SUV. We have no idea what Sarah was driving and we know she was in another car involved in the accident with Rutherford so the most obvious explanation is that she drove the SUV that hit him.

Let me ask you this, why do you think Locke was involved, that any other driver was involved. There is absolutly no evidence to support that other then that Locke was paralyzed wich could have happen any of 1,000 different ways.

Because every episode there is a thread where someone makes some sort of nitpicky observation and when it's pointed out that it's irrelevant or just a continuity error or whatever, they refuse to say "Oh... I see", and instead defend their theory to the ends of the earth.

They spend way too much time on something like this, when they could be helping OJ find the real killer, or helping me prove that Alvar Hanso is actually Adolph Hitler.

And every thread there is someone who shoots down any observations made because it injures their ego or spars with their personal agenda.

You don't need to attack every observation or theory you read, just because you find it "repetitive", "trivial", or "annoying".

You failed to see the humor in my post, as I also made fun of one of my own crackpot theories. You really need to read someone's entire post before jumping up in arms. :) (does anyone know if there is an emoticon for an insincere smiley?)

Anam Rutherford was driving an SUV that was hit by another SUV. We have no idea what Sarah was driving and we know she was in another car involved in the accident with Rutherford so the most obvious explanation is that she drove the SUV that hit him.

Let me ask you this, why do you think Locke was involved, that any other driver was involved. There is absolutly no evidence to support that other then that Locke was paralyzed wich could have happen any of 1,000 different ways.
That could be an explanation but they did describe her vehicle as a car and what she hit as a SUV. Now, that might seem trivial to some but not to me. If both were SUVs and both were being discussed at the same time, I find it odd that Sarah's would be called a car and the one she hit a SUV. Either both would be cars or both would be SUVs. It's those little things that are the clues.

I believe the man in the ER was Locke because of this pix: Man in the ER (http://www.lost-theseries.com/screencaps.php?view=cap&ep=35&id=NONAME_008_000_077.jpg).

Nurse says car jumped the divider and hit head on with an SUV. Nurse may not have been specific about what jack's wife was driving whcihc ould therefore mean a SUV even though she uses the generic word "Car" or was actually driving a car.

The man in the accident, mr. Rutherford died in the ER, how could he be Locke??

Nurse says car jumped the divider and hit head on with an SUV. Nurse may not have been specific about what jack's wife was driving whcihc ould therefore mean a SUV even though she uses the generic word "Car" or was actually driving a car.
But that's my point. When using the term "car" in the same sentence as "SUV" it seems odd that both would be SUVs. Why would someone start out calling a SUV a "car" and then, in the same breath nearly, call the second SUV a SUV? SUVs are not cars ... they're motor transportation but not cars; just like trucks are not cars.
The man in the accident, mr. Rutherford died in the ER, how could he be Locke??
Died in the ER ... then we see him no more. What's to say he didn't come back after Jack left the ER? It does happen in normal life ... that's not Sci-Fi. It happens quite a bit actually ... more than many know. I've worked in hospitals and have heard many, many stories of this happening.

mm it has happened, but most people that come back from the dead in an ER dont have an open casket funeral full of family and friends...

mm it has happened, but most people that come back from the dead in an ER dont have an open casket funeral full of family and friends...
Well, I didn't think that the guy in the casket looked like the man in the ER. Haven't been able to find a cap. If anyone has one ... I'd love to see it because, while some may doubt me, I will give up a theory if I can see proof that I'm wrong. But so far ... it's just opinions.

Hey, wasn't Kate running FROM the hospital that her mom was at? So, she COULD have been the one to cause the accident - I just don't remember what town she was in ...could it be...??

From the episode transcripts as transcribed by Spooky.


EMT #2: Adam Rutherford, 57, chest trauma, no breath sounds.

JACK [to Intern]: Tube Mr. Rutherford while I...

INTERN: I can't intubate, you've got to.

NURSE: Dr. Shepard, her BP's 80 over 60.

NURSE #2: Dr. Shepard, his breathing's deteriorating.

JACK [deciding to work on the woman]: Okay, need a syringe -- big one. You, hold pressure. [He pulls the piece of the steering column out of the woman's chest.]

NURSE: 88 over 52, no radial pulse.

JACK: I know. I know -- sac's flooded. Where's that...

NURSE [handing him a syringe]: Right here. Got it?

JACK: Yep.

NURSE #2: Doctor, we're losing him.

[Jack continues working on the woman as we hear the sound of Adam Rutherford's heart monitor flat-lining.]

NURSE: BP stabilizing.

NURSE #2: Time of death 8:15am.



also from the transcript by Spooky.


[FLASHBACK to Jack in the hospital looking at Sarah's chart as she comes to.]

SARAH: What happened to him?

JACK: Just try to relax, okay?

SARAH: The car that I hit -- the other driver was older.

JACK: He died in the ER.
************************************************** *************
IN episode 6 we see Shannon and Boone's mother being told that Adam Rutherford died in a car accident. We then witness his wake. I think there is a pretty strong case that Adam Rutherford hit the vehicle Sarah was driving and died as a result of it. He was not only pronounced dead in the ER, Jack confirms it to Sarah.

JB: These are not opinions but facts from the episodes themselves. I know the terms of car and SUV are what bothers you, but if you just replace those terms with vehicle it all makes perfect sense. I'm just trying to help because I've gone down the road with theories that didn't pan out and only wish I'd have had the proof sooner so I could have gone on to something else. LBL

From the episode transcripts as transcribed by Spooky.




also from the transcript by Spooky.


[FLASHBACK to Jack in the hospital looking at Sarah's chart as she comes to.]

SARAH: What happened to him?

JACK: Just try to relax, okay?

SARAH: The car that I hit -- the other driver was older.

JACK: He died in the ER.
************************************************** *************
IN episode 6 we see Shannon and Boone's mother being told that Adam Rutherford died in a car accident. We then witness his wake. I think there is a pretty strong case that Adam Rutherford hit the vehicle Sarah was driving and died as a result of it. He was not only pronounced dead in the ER, Jack confirms it to Sarah.

JB: These are not opinions but facts from the episodes themselves. I know the terms of car and SUV are what bothers you, but if you just replace those terms with vehicle it all makes perfect sense. I'm just trying to help because I've gone down the road with theories that didn't pan out and only wish I'd have had the proof sooner so I could have gone on to something else. LBL
I see what you and everyone else that doesn't agree is saying but I don't feel that they are the facts but clues to what happened. Facts would be without any room for speculation. Fact would be: Sarah's car hit Adam Rutherford's SUV and he died in the ER. But instead we have the man in the ER as driving a SUV and Adam Rutherford (to Mrs. R. & Shannon) as being hit by a SUV. These two conflicitng accounts leave room for speculation. And I still feel that someone talking about 2 SUVs in the same sentence would not call one a car if it were a SUV and yet call the other a SUV. This with the image of the Adam Rutherford in the ER looking so much like Locke and the Adam Rutherford at the wake hardly being shown at all.

For what it's worth, I don't mind if my theory is proven wrong. I won't mind it at all. But so far I've read no more "proof" that other's theories are right and mine is wrong than the other way around.

So JB, are you saying that the man in the ER identified as Adam Rutherford didn't die and isn't Adam Rutherford but is Locke?

If that's truly the case then nothing that happened in the ER can be believed, including Jack and Sarah's interactions.

We know that Adam Rutherford died. We hear the nurse pronounce time of death at 8:15am. We also hear another doctor tell Shannon and her Stepmother that Adam Rutherford died as a result of the accident and then we see the wake.

The biggest errors I find in this line of reasoning is that we can't believe anything shown and if we can't then the show makes no sense whatsoever. The writers have gone to great lengths to show us that there is a connection between Jack and Shannon/Boone because of this accident.

Let me ask a couple questions.

1. Is Adam Rutherford dead?

2. If the man in the ER identified as Adam is actually Locke, Why do they think he is Adam Rutherford and how does he come back to life? Especially since hours later Jack tells Sarah that the driver of the other vehicle died.

3. Why show Adam Rutherford at all in Jack's flashback if it was actually Locke?

I think I am going to nominate this theory for the "Mr. Fantastic Award". That is, the biggest stretch.

And people all the time call any vehicle a 'car' regardless of what sort of vehicle it is. They mean 'vehicle', but the use car as the generic term. Just like people will say "Coke" when they mean 'soft drink'. On the news, when they say "15 car pile-up", do you think they really mean that all 15 vehicles were cars? It's because they don't want to say "8 car, 3 truck, 1 semi-truck, and 3 van pile-up"

Yes, the producers of this show like to have hidden clues planted in the show, but if you look back at all of them, none of them were all that convoluted. If it was anything of import, like Adam Rutherford being involved in the crash, they make it an obvious point and draw attention to it. If it's just a throwaway easter egg, like the soccer team in the airport all wearing the Numbers, then it's just a visual bit.

If Locke was supposed to be involved in this crash in ANY way, they would have made it far more obvious, because otherwise viewers would be all angry that this thing came out of nowhwere. If Locke was there, they would have said something like "And this other guy sustained a back injury....he may not be able to walk again." If it was important (and the cause of Locke's paralysis certainly qualifies as one of the most important unsolved Lost mysteries), they would have alluded it to it more than just as a continuity error or a guy on the table that might have kinda looked like Locke if you squint hard enough and believe in your heart strongly enough that it might be him.

Look back when we see Sawyer in whoever's flashback. He makes a big commotion so that we, the audience, can know it's him. When Jin's in Jack's flashback, the camera lingers on him to make sure we see him. Even though they put sneaky stuff in for us, the sick hyper-fan, they have to make things obvious enough for people that only watch the show once a week, and don't think about it until the next episode airs.

If there were three vehicles involved, they would have said three vehicles. They only mentioned two vehicles, over and over and over. Ergo, two vehicles.

Darkpiranah, i agree with you totally.
First of all, yes, many people call SUV's cars when they are not specific about it. For example: If it ask you what you drive, you will say "an SUV". But if i ask you how you got here you will say "I drove my car" even if you own an SUV(with the exclusion of trucks, generally people dont call pickup trucks cars). Just the way us americans talk(sorry non-americans, i cant generalize this becuase I wouldn't know if you guys do this or not).
Second of all, for the people who think the first adam rutherford may have been locke....THAT GUY DIED right in front of us.

That could be an explanation but they did describe her vehicle as a car and what she hit as a SUV. Now, that might seem trivial to some but not to me. If both were SUVs and both were being discussed at the same time, I find it odd that Sarah's would be called a car and the one she hit a SUV. Either both would be cars or both would be SUVs. It's those little things that are the clues.

I believe the man in the ER was Locke because of this pix: Man in the ER (http://www.lost-theseries.com/screencaps.php?view=cap&ep=35&id=NONAME_008_000_077.jpg).

OK, i know this may sound stupid. But compare these two screen caps. The first one you will recognize as the ER with the "alledged locke".

http://www.lost-theseries.com/screencaps.php?view=cap&ep=35&id=NONAME_008_000_077.jpg


The second is the episode where locke gets his legs back and he is lying down. Similar angle on the pics. I draw SPECIAL ATTENTION to his nose which seems to be completely different. Now i admit, the guy in first pic looks like locke but i do not believe it is him.

http://www.lost-media.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&album=22&pos=2

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v336/elpack/dead.jpg

here's 3 images. the nose knows.
hurley doesn't know how to speak korean. there was an accident. there were 2 victims. one died. one lived. the term car/suv/vehicle/coach/ride/truck/bus are irrelevant. how it happened is irrelevant. one lived and married jack. one died and was shannon's father. jack passed shannon in the hospital. jack met desmond.

I think this theory is based on two real world production issues. First, I think the writers got mixed up and forgot that Sarah was said to be hit by an SUV not (necessarily) driving and SUV. Secondly, they may have used Terry O'Quinn's stand-in to play Rutherford on the gurney, rather than hire an extra for that part.

Is jbdean saying that this was a three-vehicle accident, however? I read her theory as referring to two separate accidents. That is, we know from "Abandoned" that Adam Rutherford, Shannon's father, was struck by an SUV, brought to St. Sebastian's hospital, never resuscitated, and was dead enough to have a funeral. It could be possible that at some other time when Jack worked in that emergency room, Sarah had a head-on collision with a guy driving an SUV whose driver's license identified him as Adam Rutherford, 57, but who was actually John Locke and the accident left him paralyzed. We'd still have to figure out why this Rutherford was pronounced dead in the ER, and was still apparently dead hours later, when Jack informed Sarah that he didn't survive. But the two-accident theory isn't quite as much a stretch and does clear up some of the timeline confusions.

Cardie

I believe the info lostpack and myself presented is evidence enough to disprove the theory.

So JB, are you saying that the man in the ER identified as Adam Rutherford didn't die and isn't Adam Rutherford but is Locke?

If that's truly the case then nothing that happened in the ER can be believed, including Jack and Sarah's interactions.

We know that Adam Rutherford died. We hear the nurse pronounce time of death at 8:15am. We also hear another doctor tell Shannon and her Stepmother that Adam Rutherford died as a result of the accident and then we see the wake.

The biggest errors I find in this line of reasoning is that we can't believe anything shown and if we can't then the show makes no sense whatsoever. The writers have gone to great lengths to show us that there is a connection between Jack and Shannon/Boone because of this accident.

Let me ask a couple questions.

1. Is Adam Rutherford dead?

2. If the man in the ER identified as Adam is actually Locke, Why do they think he is Adam Rutherford and how does he come back to life? Especially since hours later Jack tells Sarah that the driver of the other vehicle died.

3. Why show Adam Rutherford at all in Jack's flashback if it was actually Locke?
I've never said that the man in the ER didn't die. He was pronounced dead at 8:15am. But I feel it's a case of mistaken identity and that, yes, somehow he did come back to life ... later and unknown to Jack when he tells Sarah that the man whose car she hit died. Just how the identies were mistaken, I don't know. But, again, since the man in the ER was said to be driving a SUV and the Adam Rutherford that Mrs. R and Shannon were told about was said to be hit by a SUV, I beleive that this supports the possibility of a third vehicle and opens up the possibility of mistaken identity. Perhaps it's because of the one driving and the other being hit by a SUV.

As to your 3 particular questions:
1: Yes, I do believe that Shannon's father is dead.
2: I believe that he's Locke mainly because he looks just like Locke and, to me, does not look like the man in the coffin at Rutherford's wake (who does not look like Locke). As to how he came back to life, that I don't know but I do know that it's more than possible.
3: So that, further into the story, we can make the link to Locke and Jack and explain how Locke got into the wheel chair.

As to our not being able to believe anything in the ER because of this one thing ... I can't see how you can come to that conclusion. Mistakes happen in ERs just like they happen anywhere else. And since the show seems to be far from over, there is lots of time to explain this ER mixup.

This isn't a theory that I came up with just from seeing the eppy with Shannon & her father's death. I've been working on this one since the first eppy of season 2. And when the Dr. told Mrs. R that Mr. R was hit by a SUV, it gave me more reason to feel I am on the right track.

It's my theory and I'm sticking to it until it's clearly shown that I'm wrong. Too many loose ends just yet for me to conceed defeat. :biggrin:

I believe the info lostpack and myself presented is evidence enough to disprove the theory.
Sorry but what you're presenting are not facts but opinions. It's your opinion that a SUV is referred to as a car in this case. Yet the fact is that the nurse called one a car and the other one a SUV. It's your opinion that the driver of the SUV was the same as the man in the ER. Yet the facts state that the man in the ER was driving a SUV (note: not a car) and that AR, when told to Mrs. R, was said to have been hit by a SUV (again, note: not by a car).

These obvious differences of facts ... not opinions ... is what I'm basing the main part of my theory on. It is my opinion that the man in the ER looks like Locke and the one in the casket does not. But the fact that the nurse called on a car and the other a SUV does tell us they were different kinds of vehicles and then when the dr. tells Mrs. R that AR was hit by a SUV ... one cannot drive the SUV and be hit by the SUV. Making the point of identifying one as a car and one as a SUV is not throw-away dialog.

FTR, I'm not trying to convince anyone. I'm just sticking to facts as they've been presented and my opinion that the man in the ER looks like Locke.

You guys- I think this episode was meant to finalize what most of us guessed after MOS/MOF - that Sarah hit and killed Shannon's father. We are pretty much done with Boone and Shannon now. I'm leaving this thread- let's move on.

You guys- I think this episode was meant to finalize what most of us guessed after MOS/MOF - that Sarah hit and killed Shannon's father. We are pretty much done with Boone and Shannon now. I'm leaving this thread- let's move on.

Agreed.

Move along people, nothing more to see here :)

Sorry but what you're presenting are not facts but opinions. It's your opinion that a SUV is referred to as a car in this case. Yet the fact is that the nurse called one a car and the other one a SUV. It's your opinion that the driver of the SUV was the same as the man in the ER. Yet the facts state that the man in the ER was driving a SUV (note: not a car) and that AR, when told to Mrs. R, was said to have been hit by a SUV (again, note: not by a car).

These obvious differences of facts ... not opinions ... is what I'm basing the main part of my theory on. It is my opinion that the man in the ER looks like Locke and the one in the casket does not. But the fact that the nurse called on a car and the other a SUV does tell us they were different kinds of vehicles and then when the dr. tells Mrs. R that AR was hit by a SUV ... one cannot drive the SUV and be hit by the SUV. Making the point of identifying one as a car and one as a SUV is not throw-away dialog.

FTR, I'm not trying to convince anyone. I'm just sticking to facts as they've been presented and my opinion that the man in the ER looks like Locke.

Dude, I posted pictures side by side with locke and the guy on the table and there are obvious facial differences which prove (i think beyond a reasonable doubt) that locke is not the man on the table

Dude, I posted pictures side by side with locke and the guy on the table and there are obvious facial differences which prove (i think beyond a reasonable doubt) that locke is not the man on the table

as mentioned earlier on.. this is another thread like the hurley speaks korean thread -- no matter what is shown theres just people who want to believe otherwise - in this instance it seems to be all about the cars/suvs..
ironically the only car we've known locke to have was that little tiny car.. certainly no SUV - which I'd think right there would eliminate any link to him. we know that mr. rutherford does not even vaguely look like locke when we compare the pictures. so I guess at this point we just shrug, nod in agreement, and give up :ohwell:

as mentioned earlier on.. this is another thread like the hurley speaks korean thread -- no matter what is shown theres just people who want to believe otherwise - in this instance it seems to be all about the cars/suvs..
ironically the only car we've known locke to have was that little tiny car.. certainly no SUV - which I'd think right there would eliminate any link to him. we know that mr. rutherford does not even vaguely look like locke when we compare the pictures. so I guess at this point we just shrug, nod in agreement, and give up :ohwell:

lol, yeah, i suppose you are right!

Did all that I could

Dude, I posted pictures side by side with locke and the guy on the table and there are obvious facial differences which prove (i think beyond a reasonable doubt) that locke is not the man on the table
And that's an opinion ... we're both entitled to ours.
lol, yeah, i suppose you are right!

Did all that I could
I'm not trying to convince anyone that my idea is right ... just stating it. Why do you feel a need to convince me your's is right? (And that's a rhetorical question, by the way.)

See ya in another thread, yea? ;)

Ok, i realize that everyone is completely entitled to their opinion. I apoligize if i have offended anyone. While I know this is a place for expressing you opinions and "theories", i believe it is also a debates ground. A debate leads to a logical answer if it is possible. However, I realize that my "logical answer" is simply my opinion in the end and cannot force it upon anyone so i simply apoligize and will handle things more delicately in the future.
Most of all, I just want to keep it fun. After all that is why we all are here. To simply entertain ourselves because we know that it is not real (right guys, we all know that right? lol).

Does the fact that Terry O'Quinn posted on this very board that he was NOT the actor in the ER help anyone out with this theory? Seems at the very least they would have used Terry if we were in any shape, form, or fashion supposed to conclude that was Locke.

See his posting board on this site.

My first post!! Yay me!

Just checked a clip of that scene - she hits the cop car and then a parked gold car - no SUV - she did make someone swerve and honk their horn but we do not hear any "crash" because of it.

OK, i know this may sound stupid. But compare these two screen caps. The first one you will recognize as the ER with the "alledged locke".

http://www.lost-theseries.com/screencaps.php?view=cap&ep=35&id=NONAME_008_000_077.jpg


The second is the episode where locke gets his legs back and he is lying down. Similar angle on the pics. I draw SPECIAL ATTENTION to his nose which seems to be completely different. Now i admit, the guy in first pic looks like locke but i do not believe it is him.

http://www.lost-media.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&album=22&pos=2 First, I never even considered that the man in the ER is Locke & I'm not sure that it is him, however if you compare the screencap of the man in the ER with these two of Mr. Rutherford in his coffin it looks to me that the hair is not the same. Looks like the guy in the ER has dark hair (but it could be blood) but the man's hair in the coffin looks gray to me. :undecide:

http://www.lost-media.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&album=775&pos=289

http://www.lost-media.com/modules.php?name=coppermine&file=displayimage&album=775&pos=290

No. Year 18-19=1 yr. Year 19-20=2 yrs. Year 20-21=3 yrs. Year 21-approaching 22 (we don't know how close she is to 22) = nearly 4 years. My math is fine. :smile:


No, your math is still wrong.

We are led to believe Shannon is 20 on the island. Now, you are going ahead and adding some to that by making her 21, saying she may have turned 21 on the island. However, she would, at most, be about 40 days into her 21st year, nowhere near approaching 22. SO, at most, the accident can be placed 2-3 years before the crash.

Once again...
18-19 is one year
19-20 is two years
20-21 is three years
21-40 days into 21st year is three years and 40 days (not close to the 4 years needed for Locke to be involved)


You are right, you are not trying to force the issue. To get Locke into the accident, all you are doing is:

1) Adding a year to Shannon's known age
2) Ignoring Terry O'Quinn's own statement that he didn't know the person, and didn't play the person, portraying Rutherford's charcter in the ER
3) Adding a third car to the accident or adding a whole second accident
4) Ignoring the EMT's delcaration that Adam Rutherford is the name of the man in the ER, and that later Sabrina and Shannon show up and confirm his identity

Now, you may be right, and you are certainly entitled to your own theories, but at this point, it goes against the evidence, and requires some bending of known facts.

It was Hurley in his Hummer.

His eight piece bucket of chicken flew out and caused the accident.



Namaste

:cool:

Exactly. And did you notice that the pieces of chicken were Ethan and Desmond?

You mean PIECE of chicken. Ethan and Desmond are the same person. The person that Hurley and Charlie bury isn't really Ethan, that was Jack's dad's body.




Sorry, I couldn't resist contributing to the lunacy.