that Kate's crime would be far more terrible than it was? Personally, I was hoping that she did something really, really bad. I'm not saying that killing a man you hate isn't bad, but still.... I had always assumed her crime would be unthinkable. Instead it was somewhat sympathetic. Thoughts?

Yeah I thought there would be more to it.

I figured it was something like that. But she DID kill her own father. In cold blood. Not to mention assualt a U.S. Marshal. And steal his car.

Well, they couldn't do something so serious that we would be alienated from Kate entirely. We've grown to love her, so switching over to Kate-is-really-evil mode wouldn't really be nice for the rest of the series. EV isn't really that kind of actor, so I don't think should would be able to carry out something like that.

I was hoping it was something more exciting than that.

I loved the eppy but I thought Kate's crime was just dreadful and inexcusable - absolutely no sympathy for her from me. I'm just glad she's not one of my favorite characters because I could never root for her after seeing this eppy.

She killed a man in cold-blood; frankly, I think she's a sociopath, something her dad (the military man; I consider him her father since he's the one who loved her) seems to think, too......since he knew she was the kind of person who could commit murder. I didn't see any remorse on her part - the man was drunk and helpless. Granted, he was an abuser and very probably tried to commit incest when Kate was younger, but we have the police for just such things. What kind of society would we have if people just decided to kill everyone who hurt them? I understand that Kate wanted to kill the bad part of her by killing her father but to put it lightly, this was the wrong choice.

Well, they couldn't do something so serious that we would be alienated from Kate entirely. We've grown to love her, so switching over to Kate-is-really-evil mode wouldn't really be nice for the rest of the series. EV isn't really that kind of actor, so I don't think should would be able to carry out something like that.

Hmm... see, I think that if you know how to write it thr right way, they could have had Kate kill orphans and still make her sympathetic and likeable. Plus, we already know that Kate is somewhat evil thanks to "Whatever the Case May Be." She didn't kill anyone then, but it proved that she was pretty crafty and more than willing to manipulate and hurt people for her own ends.

I understand that Kate wanted to kill the bad part of her by killing her father but to put it lightly, this was the wrong choice.

Well, of course it was the wrong choice: thus all the crazy.

And what could be more 'exciting' than *blowing up her own father*? International jewel thief? ;)

To be honest, part of me was thinking that it was going to be LESS than what it was. I thought that maybe she was pinned with a crime that she actually DIDN'T commit, so I was happy with the way that it happened. LOVED this ep.

Is what she did even illegal in the US? I mean the guy had it coming, right?

I was hoping it would turn out that the original "crime" wasn't even commited by her, and she was just framed which led to the other things happening.

When I saw the house explode, I said to myself "Well... I guess you can say goodbye to Juice: The Theory". That was... unexpected! Reminded me of how Arzt blew up in season 1. This was probably the best episode featuring Kate's backstory yet.

I predicted this ever since her last flashback episode, so I was a little disappointed that it wasn't something different, but beyond that it was very well done.

And what could be more 'exciting' than *blowing up her own father*? International jewel thief?

LOL -- I can just imagine it. Kate the international jewel thief :rolleyes:

I don't know if any crime could have been more 'exciting' exactly, but I expected her to commit a crime that had more consequence, if that makes sense. Something that effected people on a more massive scale. This crime did effect people -- her mom, herself, Wayne, her daddy, the marshall... but for some reason I expected her to commit the type of crime that would effect people she never met.

I didn't want to know what Kate did, but after seeing this, I love her even more. I thought the crime hit the perfect notes thematically- tragic, inevitable, the first step in a spiral of deceit, tragedy and death...

I loved the eppy but I thought Kate's crime was just dreadful and inexcusable - absolutely no sympathy for her from me. I'm just glad she's not one of my favorite characters because I could never root for her after seeing this eppy.

She killed a man in cold-blood; frankly, I think she's a sociopath, something her dad (the military man; I consider him her father since he's the one who loved her) seems to think, too......since he knew she was the kind of person who could commit murder. I didn't see any remorse on her part - the man was drunk and helpless. Granted, he was an abuser and very probably tried to commit incest when Kate was younger, but we have the police for just such things. What kind of society would we have if people just decided to kill everyone who hurt them? I understand that Kate wanted to kill the bad part of her by killing her father but to put it lightly, this was the wrong choice.

As per usual, not every thing was revealed as to the whole story, but from what I saw tonight...... KATE ROCKS!!!! The S.O.B. she killed obviously deserved it, ......Police? Maybe, most likely he was a cop himself. Kate was 24 years old , she was not a helpless child and knew where things stood, obviously, her mother would continue to be abused, The JERK would obviously continue to get away with it. In this day and time the victim is to often ostracized , while the perpetrator walks with the help of the law. Where is Justice? What happened to the time a person could defend theirself with fists or a gun?
Gone....Gone in the name of fair play and justice? What is the irony in that? .

Ok, I know I shall be stoned for my opionen, but I am just kind of rattling now!
Bring it on! let's tussle! I had 3 members of my immediate family murdered, .been there , done that!

that Kate's crime would be far more terrible than it was? Personally, I was hoping that she did something really, really bad. I'm not saying that killing a man you hate isn't bad, but still.... I had always assumed her crime would be unthinkable. Instead it was somewhat sympathetic. Thoughts?

Was deeply hoping it would be more terrible than it was. Was hoping for coldblooded sociopathic no reason at all murder. Or ecoterrorism. Yeah, I was kind of rooting for Kate to be an ecoterrorist. Knew she wouldn't be...rooted for it all the same. I think that's somewhat along the lines of my UC shipping. I dream unreasonable dreams.

Well, they couldn't do something so serious that we would be alienated from Kate entirely. We've grown to love her, so switching over to Kate-is-really-evil mode wouldn't really be nice for the rest of the series. EV isn't really that kind of actor, so I don't think should would be able to carry out something like that.

Er, no, many of us haven't grown to love her. I've grown to not hate her. That's about it. If her crime really had been unthinkable and she was really evil, I might have been more inclined to like her, actually, as she would've been more interesting to me. But they're not writing for me, sadly.

As per usual, not every thing was revealed as to the whole story, but from what I saw tonight...... KATE ROCKS!!!! The S.O.B. she killed obviously deserved it, ......Police? Maybe, most likely he was a cop himself. Kate was 24 years old , she was not a helpless child and knew where things stood, obviously, her mother would continue to be abused, The JERK would obviously continue to get away with it. In this day and time the victim is to often ostracized , while the perpetrator walks with the help of the law. Where is Justice? What happened to the time a person could defend theirself with fists or a gun?
Gone....Gone in the name of fair play and justice? What is the irony in that? .

Ok, I know I shall be stoned for my opionen, but I am just kind of rattling now!
Bring it on! let's tussle! I had 3 members of my immediate family murdered, .been there , done that!

Wow...Kate goes all vigilante and kills her own father,consensus so far is almost free pass, Ana Lucia goes all vigilante and kills the guy who shot her and killed her unborn child, mostly more hate for her from the Lage. Everybody doesn't hate Hurley, everybody loves to hate Ana :)

Is what she did even illegal in the US? I mean the guy had it coming, right?


You ARE kidding, right?

Is what she did even illegal in the US? I mean the guy had it coming, right?

Ummm...wow...ok...

yeah, killing is bad when the other person isn't trying to kill you. Is there a country where what she did isn't illegal?

As per usual, not every thing was revealed as to the whole story, but from what I saw tonight...... KATE ROCKS!!!! The S.O.B. she killed obviously deserved it, ......Police? Maybe, most likely he was a cop himself. Kate was 24 years old , she was not a helpless child and knew where things stood, obviously, her mother would continue to be abused, The JERK would obviously continue to get away with it. In this day and time the victim is to often ostracized , while the perpetrator walks with the help of the law. Where is Justice? What happened to the time a person could defend theirself with fists or a gun?
Gone....Gone in the name of fair play and justice? What is the irony in that? .

Ok, I know I shall be stoned for my opionen, but I am just kind of rattling now!
Bring it on! let's tussle! I had 3 members of my immediate family murdered, .been there , done that!


She killed a guy in cold blood and with absolute premeditation. Anyone who was ready to give Ana a lethal injection should not be now excusing Kate. Just because, well, you know, she's Kate.

She killed a guy in cold blood and with absolute premeditation. Anyone who was ready to give Ana a lethal injection should not be now excusing Kate. Just because, well, you know, she's Kate.

*raises hand* I think they're both sociopaths and would be happy if they both got eaten by the monster. Does that count for me or against me?

Was deeply hoping it would be more terrible than it was.


Yikes. It was pretty cold-blooded as it was. Would you have preferred to see Kate hack the guy to bits with a chain saw?

*raises hand* I think they're both sociopaths and would be happy if they both got eaten by the monster. Does that count for me or against me?

In my book, it counts for you. :smile:

Wow...Kate goes all vigilante and kills her own father,consensus so far is almost free pass, Ana Lucia goes all vigilante and kills the guy who shot her and killed her unborn child, mostly more hate for her from the Lage. Everybody doesn't hate Hurley, everybody loves to hate Ana :)

Funny how easy it is to rationalize what you want to rationalize. Kate could drown a sack of newborns in her bathtub and it would be A-OK for a lot of people. But let Ana sneeze and she's infecting the entire planet with some noxious airborne disease.

Ummm...wow...ok...

yeah, killing is bad when the other person isn't trying to kill you. Is there a country where what she did isn't illegal?

Actually depending on the jurisdiction in the United States, this is not necesarrily illegal. Self-defense has an "imminence" requirement in some areas, not in others. So she might not have to show that she was in imminent danger if there was a repeated pattern of abuse (she would to associate his being home with bodily harm).

Most juries probably would find her, but just pointing out it's actually not as simple as some think.

*raises hand* I think they're both sociopaths and would be happy if they both got eaten by the monster. Does that count for me or against me?

Works for me. :smile:

So. . . . you want Jack all to yourself. Is that it?

She killed a guy in cold blood and with absolute premeditation. Anyone who was ready to give Ana a lethal injection should not be now excusing Kate. Just because, well, you know, she's Kate.

I agree, the inconsistency bothers me. This is partly because I like Ana Lucia. I think she's interesting. I think Kate is interesting, too. In the real world, I would want them both (and Sawyer) to be behind bars. But on Lost... well, I am glad all of them are there. They are both interesting characters. :-)

Wow...Kate goes all vigilante and kills her own father,consensus so far is almost free pass, Ana Lucia goes all vigilante and kills the guy who shot her and killed her unborn child, mostly more hate for her from the Lage. Everybody doesn't hate Hurley, everybody loves to hate Ana :)
A-L killing Jason has been about the only thing she's done that I cheered for. That and her care of the children. In fact, it's the only thing that's kept me from totally hating her.
Kate killing Wayne was a case of "he needed killin'. Was it right? Since we didn't grow up in that house, who knows? To some who have never experienced that kind of thing probably wouldn't think so. I hope that with the horse, she was finally able to separate Wayne from Sawyer.

Actually depending on the jurisdiction in the United States, this is not necesarrily illegal. Self-defense has an "imminence" requirement in some areas, not in others. So she might not have to show that she was in imminent danger if there was a repeated pattern of abuse (she would to associate his being home with bodily harm).

Most juries probably would find her, but just pointing out it's actually not as simple as some think.


Um, not quite. She said Wayne never touched her. As far as we know that's the truth. She never exhibited that she was afraid of him. The mother wasn't even home, and certainly didn't exhibit fear, either. I think you'd have a pretty hard row to hoe trying to make that case.

Yikes. It was pretty cold-blooded as it was. Would you have preferred to see Kate hack the guy to bits with a chain saw?

:undecide: You're misunderstanding my use of the word "cold-blooded". I'm not talking about the violence level. That was fine. That was mildly disturbing. That was enough. I'm talking about her reasoning. Kate would have been more interesting to me if she had simply snapped and committed a crime rather than the tragic backstory he-deserved-it I-was-justified genetics-is-fate thing. But that's me and I'm psychologically twisted.

In my book, it counts for you. :smile:

:biggrin: Good to know! :biggrin:

So. . . . you want Jack all to yourself. Is that it?

Ew, and no. Although I know there are plenty around here who do.

:undecide: You're misunderstanding my use of the word "cold-blooded". I'm not talking about the violence level. That was fine. That was mildly disturbing. That was enough. I'm talking about her reasoning. Kate would have been more interesting to me if she had simply snapped and committed a crime rather than the tragic backstory he-deserved-it I-was-justified genetics-is-fate thing. But that's me and I'm psychologically twisted..

That's basically how I felt. I was like -- huh? but I thought she did something really sick? The crime was cold-blodded and bad, but it wasn't overly unique, and it was very sympathetic in a somewhat dull way. I agree, in the context of this crime, I would have rather seen her snap. However, I had gotten the impression she was smarter than this. I thought it would be pre-meditated and that it would be massive somehow, long-reaching effects worthy of sending someone to Australia.

Do you think her crime was "lets spend tax dollars to retrieve her from Australia" worthy? I am somewhat doubtful.

You ARE kidding, right?

Whatever helps you sleep at night

I had a totally different impression about kate's reasons...her reasons don't seem good enough to explain WHY she would go to such extremes to kill her biological father. I think there is more to the story becuase it just doesn't make sense.

The other thing that is really confusing is how did her mother's first husband know at age 5 she had murder in her heart. I thought THAT was really weird.

Totally convinced there is more to it or else I'm really disappointed in the writers.

A few pieces of evidence for this is how he keeping leering at her, calling her beautiful and how she reacted to his touch. not sure about the connection to age 5. I'm really mystified about the the age 5 comment.

I didn't get it. Why'd she do it? Because he was creepy and he twisted her mom's wrist? Wha? Because he turned out to be her biological dad? Huh? She didn't like being related to him sooo... she kills him? Eh?

She was 24, why didn't she just move out of her mom's house to get away from him?

And it's not like you can get any read on Kate from the performance. Angry? Sad? Crazy? Errrr????

Between that and the blasted little airplane, it's weak all around. I just can't muster up any interest.

We don't yet know exactly WHY she did what she did. We can only speculate. but she did what she did with conviction. If i felt that kind of conviction about taking his life, probably I'd do the same thing. No, first I would have shot him in the knees, then burned him in the house. He really did have it coming.

Yeah, you're right. I mean, she ONLY coldly and with premeditation blew a human being into little Arzt-sized chunks--not because he raped or shot or threatened or frightened her, not because he hurt her mother, not even because he broke up her family...but because he REFLECTED BADLY ON HER.

If she'd been protecting her mom or her own life she could have blown him up at any time in the previous nineteen years. But she didn't CARE that he was a brutal drunk until she found out that he was her bio-father.Then, and only then, she decided that he had to die.

Obviously, Kate has shown these sociopathic tendencies since she was a kid. How else would her dad-of-record know that she would kill Dad#2?

I didn't get it. Why'd she do it? Because he was creepy and he twisted her mom's wrist? Wha? Because he turned out to be her biological dad? Huh? She didn't like being related to him sooo... she kills him? Eh?

Well, I'm going to speculate. If Kate feels so strongly that because Wayne is her dad she has inherited his inate "evilness", then she has probably felt for a while that she is different, that she is darker than others. Perhaps she thought that she was going through a phase, that if she could get away from Wayne and her mom, she would be okay. Then, she finds out that Wayne is her biological father, and she realizes that she can never escape her nature. She blames it on him. She kills him. Not the most rational thing ever, but its only a speculation. We don't know everything yet. I have no problem with the fact that, to a point, it seems like weak reasoning. For Kate, it represents a great deal. And she has inheritted some of Wayne's personality. She does have a darkness to her. I really liked the speech she gave Sawyer when he was waking up concerning this. It was one of the things related to Kate's crime that I enjoyed (and also, seeing Beth Broderick; she was so cool as Zelda, but I like her in these sorts of roles even more).

Please also remember that one of the hallmarks of a person who's been abused whether physically or sexually and is still somewhat functioning in the world is denial. I'm not convinced yet that Wayne didn't sexually abuse her as well as physically abuse her mother. It might have stopped when Kate was old enough to fight back. Maybe she had been away for a while and came back and saw that her mom was bruised up again and decided to stop it once and for all.
Or she could just be a sociopath...
I'm wondering if she made her hatred for Wayne clear at the age of 5 and how that manifested itself. There had to be a reason her dad wouldn't tell her then.

Um, not quite. She said Wayne never touched her. As far as we know that's the truth. She never exhibited that she was afraid of him. The mother wasn't even home, and certainly didn't exhibit fear, either. I think you'd have a pretty hard row to hoe trying to make that case.
Actually in self-defense law there's a concept called "third-party defense" in which the requirements of self-defense for a person can be transferred to another you're defending. So touching her is actually not a requirement. And most jurisdictions tend to recognize Battered Woman Syndrome (in which battered wives tend to not show fear, and tend to feel helpless) as a mitigating factor, though transferring that wouldn't work. Regardless, my original post did say it would be hard, though not impossible. A decent number of cases (abusive husbands murdered in their sleep do happen, and BWS defense is normally used) have occurred in the U.S. It's not as open and shut as possible if she shows she was in a state of Extreme Emotional Distress.

Okay, but back to Lost... I don't feel as negative about the act, it definitely makes her look more sympathetic than i thought it would. But that being said, her justification for it seems off. She was quite quick to deny being touched by him too. Something to consider.

Okay, but back to Lost... I don't feel as negative about the act, it definitely makes her look more sympathetic than i thought it would. But that being said, her justification for it seems off.
I was wondering if she had the epiphany about why she actually killed Wayne after she killed and had been on the run for a while. There are a lot of times in life that you do something thinking you know why you did it and then, in retrospect, you realize that that wasn't the reason you did it at all. (Did that make sense??) :confused:

But let's not forget that Kate also committed insurance fraud. There's cold-blooded for you.:biggrin:

Kate seems to h ave a strangely dissociative personality in which she reacts to symbols of things rathr than the things themselves. For her, Tom's toy airplane so represents her love for him that she goes to absurd legths to get it back. And Wayne represents her hatred of herself. Many people in that state of mind would kill themselves; Kate kills Wayne.

So it's only natural that a horse who wandered by the scene of primal Kate car crash comes to represent her life on the run.

Cardie

Wow...Kate goes all vigilante and kills her own father,consensus so far is almost free pass, Ana Lucia goes all vigilante and kills the guy who shot her and killed her unborn child, mostly more hate for her from the Lage. Everybody doesn't hate Hurley, everybody loves to hate Ana :) Actually, I think that they are both cold-blooded murderers and despise both the characters. I mean, not *just* the murdering, but with Kate, its all the lying, resisting arrest, assaulting officers of authority, etc. And with Ana Lucia, its killing a person when the person *would* have gone to prison as law dictates, then the way she bullies others and takes out her frustrations by pushing around others. I hate them both.

I loved the eppy but I thought Kate's crime was just dreadful and inexcusable - absolutely no sympathy for her from me. I'm just glad she's not one of my favorite characters because I could never root for her after seeing this eppy.

Even if it had been cliche, I would have much preferred if she'd said that she did it because he was hurting her mom. The reason she gave just made her sound completely nuts. And I like Kate...I don't want her to be nuts. :ohwell:

I was wondering if she had the epiphany about why she actually killed Wayne after she killed and had been on the run for a while. There are a lot of times in life that you do something thinking you know why you did it and then, in retrospect, you realize that that wasn't the reason you did it at all. (Did that make sense??) :confused:

Yeah I get what you're saying, and I'm sure it happens a lot, but she confessed to Sawyer a seeming long time afterwards when she says that she just couldn't stand him being a part of her. I still feel like we're not getting the whole story here...

Wow...Kate goes all vigilante and kills her own father,consensus so far is almost free pass, Ana Lucia goes all vigilante and kills the guy who shot her and killed her unborn child, mostly more hate for her from the Lage.

I hadn't thought of that, but you're right.....and it sucks.

Good lord. Some folks are just never happy.

I will say I was expecting something different. Not worse or better. I mean she was freaking James Bond in her flashbacks last season, so I had figured she was a professional thief maybe. This season she's just a trailer trash with a motorcycle who blew up her Dad. Got no idea how she became so adept at being a criminal and being on the run.

Yeah I get what you're saying, and I'm sure it happens a lot, but she confessed to Sawyer a seeming long time afterwards when she says that she just couldn't stand him being a part of her. I still feel like we're not getting the whole story here...
My thoughts too...there's definitely more to the story....thank God! :smile:

Wow...Kate goes all vigilante and kills her own father,consensus so far is almost free pass, Ana Lucia goes all vigilante and kills the guy who shot her and killed her unborn child, mostly more hate for her from the Lage

At the end of the show I thought to myself, "Ok, now I'm officially a hypocrite. And I am! Still a Kate fan. Still NOT an AL fan.

Yeah I get what you're saying, and I'm sure it happens a lot, but she confessed to Sawyer a seeming long time afterwards when she says that she just couldn't stand him being a part of her. I still feel like we're not getting the whole story here...


I agree... a thank god. Okay, after reading through these posts and a few others I am not minding Kate's crime quite as much. The saving grace is that confession. It's nuts. It rules. I'm not sure if it makes Kate a sociopath, but is interesting.

Kate lived a very different life after that crime. I am lookign forward to learning just when she started using guns, what other crimes she has committed since (I am assuming the bank robbery we've seen was not her first), etc.

One kills to protect a loved one (Kate/Mother) and the other kills to avenge a loved one (AL/baby). They both feel justified in their actions. It seems they would both kill for someone they loved.

At the end of the show I thought to myself, "Ok, now I'm officially a hypocrite. And I am! Still a Kate fan. Still NOT an AL fan.

The difference, sadly, is that Ana-Lucia is a "bitch," a strong, assertive and abrasive woman, who's 180 degrees from girly. Kate is athletic but is always playing the traditional female with goo-goo eyes and blushing maiden smiles. So everyone looks for reasons to excuse what she does while creaming A-L. We're culturally conditioned to respond this way, even as we realize it's inconsistent and hypocritical.

Cardie

I think I expected more because the marshall really wanted to see her locked up. I assumed it was because she did something really awful, but now it seems he has a sort of 'vendetta' against her.

Is what she did even illegal in the US? I mean the guy had it coming, right?
Wow, de ja vu. So, are you just joking - again, right? Newsflash: If you are, it's impossible to tell. Just look at some of the other responses to your post.

(FYI to all, Kell asked same question (is it illegal?) regarding Ana shooting Jason in the last episode).

The difference, sadly, is that Ana-Lucia is a "vincent," a strong, assertive and abrasive woman, who's 180 degrees from girly. Kate is athletic but is always playing the traditional female with goo-goo eyes and blushing maiden smiles. So everyone looks for reasons to excuse what she does while creaming A-L. We're culturally conditioned to respond this way, even as we realize it's inconsistent and hypocritical.

Ain't that the truth? I think its also been said that if Ana Lucia were a man people wouldn't have as much of a problem with her. The whole you-killed-my-baby story would have been less convincing, but... :biggrin:

Actually, I have often wondered just why Kate is so girly. Until this episode, I was sure her big crime was much more clever and that she had had dealings with very bad people. I thought (and sitll think) she was the kind of person who could hold her own ground. But then, who is to say you can't hold your own ground and still be feminine? Stupid social conditioning.

Oh -- and I agree with what you said earlier. Insurance Fraud? The blood in my veins freezes.

That's basically how I felt. I was like -- huh? but I thought she did something really sick? The crime was cold-blodded and bad, but it wasn't overly unique, and it was very sympathetic in a somewhat dull way. I agree, in the context of this crime, I would have rather seen her snap. However, I had gotten the impression she was smarter than this. I thought it would be pre-meditated and that it would be massive somehow, long-reaching effects worthy of sending someone to Australia.

Do you think her crime was "lets spend tax dollars to retrieve her from Australia" worthy? I am somewhat doubtful.

Yeah, I'm pretty much on that same vein. If any of the writers are reading this for some reason, I do appreciate the show but I'm really questioning if they have done much research at all when it comes to law enforcement. From all the completely off things they gave us as far as Ana Lucia working under her mother (in a big city where she'd definitely have been put in a dept where her mom was NOT in charge), the way Ana doesn't follow any real police procedure, and now having people go on a global manhunt for Kate over this kind of crime (unless it's for something else but that remains to be seen I guess). I don't really find any of it believable or understanding. I've also been disappointed in how each of these people's crimes seem to be calculated in a way that seems too obvious that the writers are begging for us to sympathize with the characters. It's like they're telling us so and so is hardcore and then turning it around and saying but only because they are terribly hurt and abused inside. I mean granted they want us to like the characters or else why would we keep watching but these things are too obvious for me and I always find it hard to sympathize with people who go out for their own revenge which seems to happen with many of these people.

The difference, sadly, is that Ana-Lucia is a "vincent," a strong, assertive and abrasive woman, who's 180 degrees from girly. Kate is athletic but is always playing the traditional female with goo-goo eyes and blushing maiden smiles. So everyone looks for reasons to excuse what she does while creaming A-L. We're culturally conditioned to respond this way, even as we realize it's inconsistent and hypocritical.

Cardie

Honestly, for me I don't care much for either of them. However, I care for Kate slightly more than than Ana but not because one is more girly than the other. It's more to do with how they treat people on the island. I can't stand either of them in their flashbacks. But on the island, I've at least seen Kate be kind to people quite often and help out without beating on people or screaming at them all the time. I haven't seen Ana Lucia like that at all. Even when she tries to help, she does it in such an off-putting, mean way that I don't care for. So yeah, still don't have either of them as a favorite but Kate is still a bit ahead of Ana on the list due to island comparisons.

I wasn't in the least disappointed with her crime. After seeing her other flashbacks, I knew she had a reason for committing the crime and that on some level it was explainable. Tom tells her that the authorities might understand if she turns herself in and tells them what happens. Her mother's reaction to her at the hospital also clued me in to the fact it probably had something to do with her father/step-father.

Her explanation of why she killed him is just a part of it. When she talks to her mother and gives her the insurance policy, it shows that she WAS thinking about her mother. Otherwise she would have just killed the son of a "Vincent" and not bothered taking care of Mom.

When she talks to her non biological father, he stated that he wanted to take her with him when she was 5 yrs old but her mother wouldn't let him. The part that isn't clear to me is whether she lived her whole life with Wayne and Mom or if she lived the first 5 yrs with military Dad and Mom. She only found out recently that Wayne was her real father which leads me to believe she spent the first 5 yrs with military Dad. She definitely has a bond with military Dad since she hugs him and calls him Daddy prior to leaving and after he has told her he has to call the authorities on her.

Just because Kate says Wayne never touched her doesn't convince me that he didn't. He was trying the night she killed him. I doubt very much it was the first time. It makes a lot more sense if Wayne had done something and then Kate found out he was her real father. Couple that with the obvious physical abuse of her mother and Kate plans to take care of Mom because Mom not only won't leave but protects Wayne by lying about his abuse. Here's my speculation. Wayne has sexually harassed Kate for years whether he was successful in committing incest isn't even relative. He has physically abused Kate's Mother for years. Kate finds out that Wayne is her biological father and then decides to rid him from her mother's life for good.

Nothing in the show has ever been stated that the US Marshal was sent by the department to chase down Kate. Can you imagine the flak he caught not only from his superiors but from his fellow agents about not only losing this young little girl prisoner but of her beating him up and stealing his car. Now I wonder if that would be enough incentive for this guy to make it his life's mission to bring her in?

I loved the eppy but I thought Kate's crime was just dreadful and inexcusable - absolutely no sympathy for her from me. I'm just glad she's not one of my favorite characters because I could never root for her after seeing this eppy.

She killed a man in cold-blood; frankly, I think she's a sociopath, something her dad (the military man; I consider him her father since he's the one who loved her) seems to think, too......since he knew she was the kind of person who could commit murder. I didn't see any remorse on her part - the man was drunk and helpless. Granted, he was an abuser and very probably tried to commit incest when Kate was younger, but we have the police for just such things. What kind of society would we have if people just decided to kill everyone who hurt them? I understand that Kate wanted to kill the bad part of her by killing her father but to put it lightly, this was the wrong choice.


The thing is, the more the show goes on, the more it seems there are lots of murders in the pasts of our losties.

Directly responsible for someone's death - for sure:

Sayid, Sawyer, Anna, Kate

Indirectly responsible:

* Jack (his father), Hurley, Boone (Theresa falls upstairs...)

* Also, definately knows how to operate a gun (strongly implied practice and use of a gun)

*Charlie, *Locke, *Jin, *Shannon. For some reason, I want to add Michael to this list. :undecide:

Anyway, that's 11 out of 15 (17 main cast members really) of who is left. That leaves Sun, Walt and Claire from season one and we don't know enough about Ecko and Libby yet.

Guess what I am saying is, there were lots of cold blooded things done by our losties that have happened in the FB's. They have all made WRONG CHOICES.

That's basically how I felt. I was like -- huh? but I thought she did something really sick? The crime was cold-blodded and bad, but it wasn't overly unique, and it was very sympathetic in a somewhat dull way. I agree, in the context of this crime, I would have rather seen her snap. However, I had gotten the impression she was smarter than this. I thought it would be pre-meditated and that it would be massive somehow, long-reaching effects worthy of sending someone to Australia.

Do you think her crime was "lets spend tax dollars to retrieve her from Australia" worthy? I am somewhat doubtful.


That's what's been bugging me - Sure - she killed her father - but this sort of thing happens all the time! Is it normal to send a federal marshal after someone who's basically killed someone as a "crime of passion?" Maybe it was her "dad" being an Army recruiter
that got the feds involved.

That's what's been bugging me - Sure - she killed her father - but this sort of thing happens all the time! Is it normal to send a federal marshal after someone who's basically killed someone as a "crime of passion?" Maybe it was her "dad" being an Army recruiter
that got the feds involved.

Yep, I am with you guys on this one. It seems like we didn't get all of the story. What a surpise that would be. :o :rolleyes: :D

Kate's relationship with the marshal is based on that between Kimble and Gerard in The Fugitive (which is in turn based on that between Valjean and Javert in Les Miserables.) Because Kate escaped on his watch, the marshal is obsessed with bringing her in. He's quite capable of going to Australia on his own dime at this point I'm sure.

Cardie

The difference, sadly, is that Ana-Lucia is a "vincent," a strong, assertive and abrasive woman, who's 180 degrees from girly. Kate is athletic but is always playing the traditional female with goo-goo eyes and blushing maiden smiles. So everyone looks for reasons to excuse what she does while creaming A-L. We're culturally conditioned to respond this way, even as we realize it's inconsistent and hypocritical.

Cardie
Quite apart from their original "crimes", I think you have to factor the characters' personalities into why we might like or dislike them. If Kate had been one of the Tailies, can I picture her, under any circumstances, sneering at her pal Eko and telling him Cindy's disappearance is on HIS head? Or throwing Nathan in a pit and starving him for four days? Or treating the Raftaways like crap, even after she knew they were only stranded survivors, just like the Tailies? Or ordering everyone around like a mini-dictator? Or wanting to just leave someone wounded behind to die in the jungle like a dog? Or reacting to having shot an innocent person by waving her gun around, taking everybody hostage while she figures out how to save her own butt, and trying to guilt-trip Bernard into staying with her when he just desperately wants to get back to his wife who's now so nearby? No. Really, really not. I can't imagine her doing any of those things because under crisis condtions, we've seen her be resourceful, hard-working, effective, and considerate of others. The situation has brought out her capacity to be a decent human being. OTOH, it revealed Ana to be a nasty piece of work with on the inside.

You described Ana-Lucia as strong, assertive and abrasive. I think Kate is strong and assertive as well, abrasive is not really required. Ana, OTOH, is abrasive, aggressive, and just plain mean-hearted. Kate, I like, and I enjoy her in the mix. OTOH, Ana can stay exiled waaaay up there on the beach and have an occasional three-line conversation with Jack. That's fine by me, just keep her out of my face.

I loved this episode because it felt like "Lost" and we got to see a lot of different characters, not like "The Ana Lucia Show". I've had more than enough of Ana to last me a season already, thank you very much.

I had a totally different impression about kate's reasons...her reasons don't seem good enough to explain WHY she would go to such extremes to kill her biological father. I think there is more to the story becuase it just doesn't make sense.

The other thing that is really confusing is how did her mother's first husband know at age 5 she had murder in her heart. I thought THAT was really weird.

Totally convinced there is more to it or else I'm really disappointed in the writers.

A few pieces of evidence for this is how he keeping leering at her, calling her beautiful and how she reacted to his touch. not sure about the connection to age 5. I'm really mystified about the the age 5 comment.

This was PRECISELY my reaction. I'm kind of amused at the comments that this crime wasn't "bad enough"--even though Wayne was a drunk and abuser, seems to me there are OTHER solutions besides blowing him to pieces, especially since Kate was 24 at the time and not a kid trapped in a bad family situation. It was a pretty horrific thing to do. And the "murder in her heart" business was way bizarre.

I think there's a LOT more to the story; we are still going to see something down the line to change the perception of what happened. Whether it makes Kate look better or worse, I don't know. But there just has to be more.

That's what's been bugging me - Sure - she killed her father - but this sort of thing happens all the time! Is it normal to send a federal marshal after someone who's basically killed someone as a "crime of passion?" Maybe it was her "dad" being an Army recruiter
that got the feds involved.

I'm thinking Wayne may have been some bigshot either in the military or government - otherwise, why would federal marshall's have been after her in the first place?

I don't see how anyone can think that killing your father in cold blood and assualting a marshall is minor. Other then slitting his throat, what could she have done that would be more horrible. I think what she did was bad enough.

It's not minor - but it's also not US Marshall worthy - UNLESS he was also military or a government big shot.

I'm thinking that maybe there was a clue on the bookcase in the house - but I forgot to tape the show last night -so I can't go back & look.

What were some of you people hoping for? That Kate went off on a mass murdering spree and practiced cannibalism? Come one, she committed murder and is running from the law. There might be more to criminal record as she was on the run but her crime works with the sorry line of the show. I think some of you had crazy expectations and it’s clouding your view of how the show should be moving along. :rolleyes:

Is what she did even illegal in the US? I mean the guy had it coming, right?

Well, rape can be punishable by death in the US but nowadays you only recieve the death penalty for murder. In any case, I'm not a fan of the death penalty or vigilantism in general.. if Kate's dad did something really horrific (like his hobby was eating babies or something) then yea I'd supprt her decision but as it is she did the wrong thing.

The difference, sadly, is that Ana-Lucia is a "vincent," a strong, assertive and abrasive woman, who's 180 degrees from girly. Kate is athletic but is always playing the traditional female with goo-goo eyes and blushing maiden smiles. So everyone looks for reasons to excuse what she does while creaming A-L. We're culturally conditioned to respond this way, even as we realize it's inconsistent and hypocritical.

I agree completely. Somehow I knew all the AL haters would be hypocrites and try to find Kate's cold-blooded crime sympathetic. :rolleyes:

As usual, Kate's backstory makes no sense. All of her eps have bugged the heck out of me because they are so unbelievable.

I agree with those who feel disappointed with "what Kate did".

Frankly, when the writers let these "mysteries" build up for so long many people are going to be disappointed when things are finally revealed. I have a feeling that this is going to be the first of many disppontments for some people.

Even if it had been cliche, I would have much preferred if she'd said that she did it because he was hurting her mom. The reason she gave just made her sound completely nuts. And I like Kate...I don't want her to be nuts. :ohwell:


Kate would have been wrong even on the first count because, presumably, Wayne hadn't touched her in a long time. She also knew that he was hurting her mother, which she didn't seem to care about (she only cares about herself; Kate has a huge selfish streak in her). Yet, she kills him only now? That, in addition to her given reason for the murder, indicates clear pre-meditation. I'm glad her mother turned her in, and no wonder she was scared of Kate last time they met. The girl is a loose cannon.

That's what's been bugging me - Sure - she killed her father - but this sort of thing happens all the time! Is it normal to send a federal marshal after someone who's basically killed someone as a "crime of passion?" Maybe it was her "dad" being an Army recruiter
that got the feds involved.

That was not a crime of passion. Kate killed Wayne in cold-blood, with lots of thought beforehand. I think you could have made an argument for mitigating circumstances had Kate killed him after yet another cycle of abuse but that wasn't the case here. Kate blew up a house for the insurance money - in addition to murder, she committed fraud. I'm glad the marshall was sent after her.

I was, but now that her crime is up, I'm now hoping for more of a reason. (This is why I love flashbacks) For instances, why was Wayne so evil and dark? What did Kate see in him that made her need to kill him to purge herself of him? We only met Wayne for, like, TWO seconds, so I think the writers have TONS of stuff for Kate there.

The reason I can't let Ana Lucia off - I REALLY dislike her. She's angry and, in my opinion, she's got no real reason to be THAT angry. Angst, sure, but to completely ostracize herself on the island and at work bite back at people who try to help, that's both irritating and stupid.

Yes, Kate was also stupid to blow up her Dad (and a little sick) but I think there's more. Escpecially if you feel like you're at the end of the rope and can't do anything else. (I also have no real love for our judicial system. It just DOESN'T work) I like Kate because I have a soft spot for characters who run (partially because I understand it) and what she did, in a strange way, makes sense to me.

What Ana did makes sense, too, but I still don't like her.

Ta

Wow, de ja vu. So, are you just joking - again, right? Newsflash: If you are, it's impossible to tell. Just look at some of the other responses to your post.

(FYI to all, Kell asked same question (is it illegal?) regarding Ana shooting Jason in the last episode).

Yes. Sorry, I find it funnier without any tell on the joke. But the point is very interesting given how quickly some people are to forgive Kate, but not AL. Obviously, the crimes are very similar.

If thats all Kate's crime was, (and im not excusin it!) but why was the Marshall so hell bent on capturing her ? Hundreds of crimes are commited everyday but the perpetrators dont get an obsessive cop on their tail thats wiling to chase them from country to country etc. Mayb the 'Kates biological father is a cop' theory is correct, the Marshall was his best mate or mayb a fellow (alleged) abuser ?? I still think there is more to it...

I think that the marshall and his co-horts at the bus station were there to intercept what they considered a cold-blooded killer. Keep in mind, we don't know where Kate was leaving from in this scene. She may have already crossed the state line, thus it would involve the feds.

Since that initial arrest and escape we also know she was involved in the death of Tom, which would most likely been charged as her fault (i.e. that he died as her hostage which is what it would appear to be to the outside world). Her mother also reacted as if Kate was trying to kill her, so now we have her wanted for at least 2 deaths and one attempted. Then she goes and pulls that whole bank robbery thing where at least 3 more people were shot, not to mention she was identified to the bank manager as the leader of the heist. I'm sure the list of crimes continues to build including theft of automobiles and possibly merchandise (hair dye?) and hotel rooms.

Was there enough cause for a federal marshall to chase after her? I think so. Although I still think he was chasing her more because she got away from him ... and in pure speculation ... maybe was the only blemish on his record?

For what it's worth I was VERY dissapointed in the flashback story. I was waiting for an answer but this left me flat. I was wanting something less "traditional" something more bizarre.

How many movies/tv progs have included an avenging child/abusee killing the abuser ?

The only twist was that Kates mum is really cross about the fact that Kate killed Wayne and the cops are on her tail. Usually the person being abused is all happy and the cops let the killer off because they "saved the tax payer some money" or have a "he got what was coming" attitude.

As I said in a pre-episode thread yesterday I wanted her to be 'caught up in something that is now out of control', something she started by doing 'the right thing'. Which some would argue she did but I think the writers did not make Wayne hateful enough if they wanted us to approve of Kate -- they should have made him worse to make Kates actions appear better. Now Kate is the one we dislike -- perhaps that was the writers point.

I also wanted there to be a two string backstory, the reason the cops are after being seperate to that her mother hated her. This would have added to Kates character in a good way now she's a bad person.

In my opinion she killed Wayne as she could not bring herself to commit suicide. If she hated the 'bad part' of her that much she would have.

Before this I liked Kate, now it's not that I don't like her I just don't care about her.

The primary job of US Marshals is to carry out the directives of local, state, and federal courts, including serving arrest warrants and apprehending fugitives. So the marshal would have been tasked with bringing Kate in whether her crime were trivial or serious.

What doesn't work is that US marshals are generally assigned to a certain jurisdiction. After Kate made an "interstate flight to avoid prosecution," her apprehension would have passed to the FBI. I have to think that Marshal Mars is on some sort of private vendetta to recapture Kate because she humiliated him by escapting from him.

Cardie

The difference, sadly, is that Ana-Lucia is a "vincent," a strong, assertive and abrasive woman, who's 180 degrees from girly. Kate is athletic but is always playing the traditional female with goo-goo eyes and blushing maiden smiles. So everyone looks for reasons to excuse what she does while creaming A-L. We're culturally conditioned to respond this way, even as we realize it's inconsistent and hypocritical.

Cardie

"Everyone" looks for reasons to excuse Kate while creaming Ana-Lucia? Even me? I still dislike them both. There are no reasons (FOR ME) to excuse Kate or Ana-Lucia. Neither Kate nor AL does anything as a character for me. It has nothing to do with girly. It may have something to do with the apparent perception I'm now running into that the only way to be a "strong" woman is to commit first-degree murder. Or not. It might just be an emotional reaction.

And I know you didn't literally mean "everyone", but I'm culturally conditioned to flare up at being grouped into a classification I don't belong in. :p

What were some of you people hoping for? That Kate went off on a mass murdering spree and practiced cannibalism? Come one, she committed murder and is running from the law. There might be more to criminal record as she was on the run but her crime works with the sorry line of the show. I think some of you had crazy expectations and it’s clouding your view of how the show should be moving along. :rolleyes:

Yes. The mass murdering spree. Not the cannibalism--I don't think network TV's ready for that--but the mass murdering spree. Or a professional jewel thief. Or an ecoterrorist. Yeah, as I said before, ecoterrorism would have won her some major points with me. Although (as I also said before (was it in this thread?)) I knew all along she wouldn't be an ecoterrorist. I wanted her to be anyway.

I agree completely. Somehow I knew all the AL haters would be hypocrites and try to find Kate's cold-blooded crime sympathetic. :rolleyes:

ALL? See my response to Cardie--Not ALL the AL haters are trying to make Kate's crime sympathetic. Some of us hate Kate, too. And why does it have to be a comparison, anyway? They're both contemptible psychopaths. In My Opinion.

As usual, Kate's backstory makes no sense. All of her eps have bugged the heck out of me because they are so unbelievable.

That, we agree on, 100%.

Well, rape can be punishable by death in the US but nowadays you only recieve the death penalty for murder. In any case, I'm not a fan of the death penalty or vigilantism in general.. if Kate's dad did something really horrific (like his hobby was eating babies or something) then yea I'd supprt her decision but as it is she did the wrong thing.

You've obviously never been a victim of sexual abuse/incest if so you might feel quite differently. IMO I think what he did, if he in fact did molest or rape her (which I believe to be the case) is pretty darn horrific

I was pretty pleased with it, actually, especially the more I think about it. On the surface it's a bit cliched, but there's clearly a more complicated family situation there. I was so glad she didn't turn out to have been framed or misunderstood. Now what was this "story" that the Marshal "believed"? (Remember the Pilot?)

Yes, Kate was also stupid to blow up her Dad (and a little sick) but I think there's more. Escpecially if you feel like you're at the end of the rope and can't do anything else. (I also have no real love for our judicial system. It just DOESN'T work) I like Kate because I have a soft spot for characters who run (partially because I understand it) and what she did, in a strange way, makes sense to me.

I agree with you (mostly), and welcome to the Fuselage. Those who say, "Kate should have let the authorities handle things" are ignoring the fact that Kate's mom is a classic battered woman who will protect her abuser to the end. Nothing was going to happen to Wayne if Kate's mom couldn't or wouldn't testify against him. You're right, the judicial system doesn't work most of the time. Wayne is a dirtbag who deserves no sympathy. Ironically, Kate may have saved some lives by doing what she did - if Wayne always drives when he's that drunk, it was only a matter of time anyway.

But Kate did have another option, as far as we know - she could have walked away. At 24, and smart enough to have been a "straight A student", nothing was keeping her in that house. Kate's mom was plenty old enough to make her own decisions - if she wanted to stay with an abuser, she pretty much had the right to do that. And the fact that Kate's mother tolerated that behavior the whole time Kate was growing up there makes me wonder how much she deserved protecting.

Wow...Kate goes all vigilante and kills her own father,consensus so far is almost free pass, Ana Lucia goes all vigilante and kills the guy who shot her and killed her unborn child, mostly more hate for her from the Lage. Everybody doesn't hate Hurley, everybody loves to hate Ana :)
I don't think it was a coincidence that those two stories were told back-to-back. We're being encouraged to juxtapose the two murders and come to the realization that we're giving more slack to the more egregious sinner because she's a "sweetheart" whom we "know".


The other thing that is really confusing is how did her mother's first husband know at age 5 she had murder in her heart. I thought THAT was really weird.

Totally convinced there is more to it or else I'm really disappointed in the writers.

A few pieces of evidence for this is how he keeping leering at her, calling her beautiful and how she reacted to his touch. not sure about the connection to age 5. I'm really mystified about the the age 5 comment.
Sgt. Austen made two comments that were related, but each need their own context. He said, "I knew you would kill him" and "I don't have murder in my heart" (implying that Kate does). The second statement, as I recall, referred to why Sgt. Austen didn't take "action" against Wayne 20 years ago (or longer, since Wayne was obviously 'close to' Kate's mom long before Kate was 5).

The first statement doesn't necessarily refer to the 5-year-old Kate. Obviously Kate had kept in touch with her "dad", and he had many opportunities to tell her the truth about her parentage. By the time she was old enough to handle that revelation in other ways, Sgt. Austen could perceive her violent streak enough to know that divulging that information might be a bad idea.

Yeah, you're right. I mean, she ONLY coldly and with premeditation blew a human being into little Arzt-sized chunks--not because he raped or shot or threatened or frightened her, not because he hurt her mother, not even because he broke up her family...but because he REFLECTED BADLY ON HER.

If she'd been protecting her mom or her own life she could have blown him up at any time in the previous nineteen years. But she didn't CARE that he was a brutal drunk until she found out that he was her bio-father.Then, and only then, she decided that he had to die.

Obviously, Kate has shown these sociopathic tendencies since she was a kid. How else would her dad-of-record know that she would kill Dad#2?
Good points.


*Charlie, *Locke, *Jin, *Shannon. For some reason, I want to add Michael to this list. :undecide:

Probably because you saw last week's episode when Jack asked him if he knew how to handle the assault weapon from the arsenal and he said, "Yes". :)

I think the flashbacks only prove just how cold blooded she was. In her confession she said she didn't kill him because of the abuse of her mother, or the way she looked at him, or for driving her other dad away, she killed him because she didn't like the fact that she was part of him. That is insane! I have a very similar story to Kate growing up, my dad was an alcoholic, almost killed my mom more than once, but do I plan on killing him? No! That is ridiculous.And, that is not the reason she killed her dad either. She is just a cold blooded "vincent". I don't understand why everyone is thinking that the crime was justified and run of the mill, when obviously, she is a psychopath. I know she has such the "good girl" image on the island, where she can do no wrong, and this just proves that her crime was heinous and commited for no real reason. I liked it and I still like Kate, I just thinks this gives her more depth and makes her character more interesting.

You've obviously never been a victim of sexual abuse/incest if so you might feel quite differently. IMO I think what he did, if he in fact did molest or rape her (which I believe to be the case) is pretty darn horrific
Welcome to the Fuselage, and you're right - if Wayne had sexually abused or molested her (which she seemed to say he didn't), I could never be on a jury that convicted her. I would convict her for the armed bank robbery, though, which was a worse offense in my book.

I loved the eppy but I thought Kate's crime was just dreadful and inexcusable - absolutely no sympathy for her from me. I'm just glad she's not one of my favorite characters because I could never root for her after seeing this eppy.

She killed a man in cold-blood; frankly, I think she's a sociopath, something her dad (the military man; I consider him her father since he's the one who loved her) seems to think, too......since he knew she was the kind of person who could commit murder. I didn't see any remorse on her part - the man was drunk and helpless. Granted, he was an abuser and very probably tried to commit incest when Kate was younger, but we have the police for just such things. What kind of society would we have if people just decided to kill everyone who hurt them? I understand that Kate wanted to kill the bad part of her by killing her father but to put it lightly, this was the wrong choice.

I completely agree with you. Kate has been portrayed as immature, calculating, self-centered and completely unwilling to take any responsibility for her own actions. I liked the episode but I thought Kate's reason for ending her father's life and blowing up her mother's home was completely lame. If there are other reasons, like molestation of Kate or her mother's life in danger, I would have liked to have seen them clearly in last night's flashback. Then she would be a much more sympathetic character instead of a sociopath. I would be seriously afraid to be stranded on an island with her.

Police? Maybe, most likely he was a cop himself. Kate was 24 years old , she was not a helpless child and knew where things stood, obviously, her mother would continue to be abused, The JERK would obviously continue to get away with it. In this day and time the victim is to often ostracized , while the perpetrator walks with the help of the law. Where is Justice? What happened to the time a person could defend theirself with fists or a gun?
Gone....Gone in the name of fair play and justice? What is the irony in that? .

Yeah, I've seen the "Justice System" work in families with abuse. A good portion of the time, nothing is done - which leads the victim(s) to the belief that if they don't do something themselves to stop the abuse, it will just keep happening. So...while I believe it was a bad decision on Kate's part, I can understand where she's coming from.

Except she's not "coming from" the persepctive of someone protecting her abused mom. She admits that wasn't her motiviation at all.

QUESTION ONE: KATE'S MOTIVE
Let's get this straight:
> Kate did not kill Wayne to stop him from abusing her mom.
> Kate did not kill Wayne to stop him from abusing her.
> Kate did not kill Wayne for the insurance.
> Kate did not kill Wayne because he was evil.

Kate killed Wayne because she loathes herself (we don't yet know why) and discovering he was her dad gave her a scapegoat for her own self-loathing. Her actions are not jusitifed in any way. That's twisted. It's a lot more twisted, as well as being consistent with her character, than most of the so-called twisted crimes that people on this thread have proposed.

QUESTION TWO: WHY A US MARSHAL?
A US Marshal apprehends fugitives. Chances are, she had been arrested on federal charges and escaped (in between seeing her mom in the diner and buying a ticket to Tallahasse which, for all we know, could have been years apart). He was the Marshal sent to apprehend her. She pissed him off by escaping. He's on a vendetta.

It all works for me.

Except she's not "coming from" the persepctive of someone protecting her abused mom. She admits that wasn't her motiviation at all.

QUESTION ONE: KATE'S MOTIVE
Let's get this straight:
> Kate did not kill Wayne to stop him from abusing her mom.
> Kate did not kill Wayne to stop him from abusing her.
> Kate did not kill Wayne for the insurance.
> Kate did not kill Wayne because he was evil.

Kate killed Wayne because she loathes herself (we don't yet know why) and discovering he was her dad gave her a scapegoat for her own self-loathing. Her actions are not jusitifed in any way. That's twisted. It's a lot more twisted, as well as being consistent with her character, than most of the so-called twisted crimes that people on this thread have proposed.


Excellent summery of her motive. For me, her ultimate motive was the saving grace of her crime. Now that's it has been a while since the episode, I am giving the crime more of chance. I am now interested in just how Kate decided that she had a darkness inside her. Did she commit a crime before that she got away with? Hmm. I'm not convinced that she hates herself entirely. She might, but she also has powerful self-preservation instincts. I think there's a bit more to her than "I am bad and I hate it and its all because of my dad so I killed him" (though, wow, just writing that setence made her seem even crazier to me). I think that she likes herself a little. Or perhaps she has a strong sense of entitlement? I couldn't fault her in that sense. She feels her dad makes her inherently evil, but she feels she deserves a clean slate, a clean slate the island gave her incidently.... Well, that might not be it, but I definately think that there is something.

Small interjection here -- Great posts everyone! I've really enjoyed reading through the posts and all the speculation has given me a lot to think about. I really appreciate how much thought every has put into this. It's exciting! Thanks to everyone who looked up information about US Marshals. That clarified a lot.

Okay, end of my interjection. Happy posting!

I thought what she did was much worse than what I thought it would be. Plus the fact that I thought she would have more justification for her action, which there really wasn't. I wasn't sympathetic at all. Originally I thought perhaps she killed somone in self defense, or something along those lines, but she killed her drunk father after tucking him into bed by blowing up the house. Premeditated murder of her own father. Pretty severe in my opinion.

Idon't feel any sympothy for her... she murdered a man!!

I mean, I feel bad for the situation she was in, and everything that happened, but she could've dealt with it in a much better way!

I am now interested in just how Kate decided that she had a darkness inside her. Did she commit a crime before that she got away with? Hmm. I'm not convinced that she hates herself entirely. She might, but she also has powerful self-preservation instincts. I think there's a bit more to her than "I am bad and I hate it and its all because of my dad so I killed him" (though, wow, just writing that setence made her seem even crazier to me). I think that she likes herself a little.

Reading this gave me a suspicion that the writers may have made Kate with these tendencies so that she could really "identify" with Sawyer in more ways than just the "outlaw" similarity. But I think they went a little far, and made her seem just plain nuts in this episode. One irrational behaviour after another....I have always liked Kate, and don't like how she is turning out.

For me the breakdown is not quite as boiling it down to she murdered someone in cold blood therefore she's bad.

For one, I think there can be speculation if it really was in cold blood. It clearly was premeditated (faking a gas leak) but it does seem like something's missing. First the insurance to help her mom (while also being insurance fraud) I think shows some into her mind that she is doing it more for her mind that she lets on. You have to contrast this with her confession to Sawyer, in which she says she did it because she could not stand him being a part of her.

Personally, I take away that she was not really doing it to kill her biological father, that she was more attempting to help her mother, and that as smart as she is, she thought this would help.

I also am of the belief that we are supposed to take away the fact that she was sexually abused. Or at least can take it away, and I definitely did. Someone saying "he never touched me" doesn't make it true, especially not in the tone she said it.

Whoever asked about the Anna Lucia question last week, I think she would have a harder legal case than Kate (who seems to still be dealing with her father on a daily(?) basis), as Anna Lucia has had a long enough "cooling off period" which eliminates an extreme emotional distress defense (from the loss of a loved one, etc.).

Personally, I take away that she was not really doing it to kill her biological father, that she was more attempting to help her mother, and that as smart as she is, she thought this would help.

I also am of the belief that we are supposed to take away the fact that she was sexually abused. Or at least can take it away, and I definitely did. Someone saying "he never touched me" doesn't make it true, especially not in the tone she said it.

Whoever asked about the Anna Lucia question last week, I think she would have a harder legal case than Kate (who seems to still be dealing with her father on a daily(?) basis), as Anna Lucia has had a long enough "cooling off period" which eliminates an extreme emotional distress defense (from the loss of a loved one, etc.).

I agree that she was probably sexually abused, or at least lived in intense fear of it.

I don't think she was doing it just to help her mom. I trust her confession to Sawyer. She killed Wayne because she wanted him dead. Kate is very smart and she has self-preservation instincts. I think its entirely possible that she commited insurence fraud and talked to her mom before she ran just so that, if she was caught and could not escape, her lawyer could use this is court as evidence that Kate is a good person, in her own twisted way.

I'm not entirely sure that Kate did deal with abuse everyday. Now, when her father came home he made a comment like, "what are you doing here?" Based on that, I think it is possible that Kate has moved out, and she came back to visit. Her mom at the diner didn't seem surprised to ser her, but that could be because they have already seen each other. KAte's mom may have sent her back the the house to wait for her dad, knowing that she herself would be working. It's impossible to tell. Either way, I think both would have trouble in court. And I think the fact that Kate has been running for years would destroy her case.

I think Kate had moved out, had made straight As and was on the verge of creating a decent life for herself. As a child she always thought about running away, not stopping the abuse.

I think that Kate's psychology was set when Sgt. Austen left. She had to think that she didn't measure up to the standards of the one strong, decent and honorable person in her life. So she does develop self-doubt and self-loathing. But she also must have believed that since Sgt. Austen was her father, there was a 50/50 chance that she could be the kind of person he was, despite her mother's failings and Wayne's creepy love for her.

It is only when she finds out, apparently shortly before the murder, that Wayne is her biological father and she has none of Sgt. austen in her that she freaks out and kills Wayne, as if that will somehow eradicate the stain on her own blood. Then she keeps trying to be a good girl to make up for it and win the approval of men like Austen, but all she does is get involved with more sleazy types and cause more damage.

The Australian farmer is another stand-in for Austen. She respects him and feels that his affection could redeem her, but her turns her in, just as Austen did.

Cardie

This forum rocks! It is really interesting to see so much intelligent input! I agree there is a marked disrepency between the Kate and Ana fields. I don't like Ana yet, but I certainly sympathised with why she killed the man who shot her. I think Kate must have had a reason (other than the little voices telling her to) to kill Wayne as well. I just find it hard to get a handle around the fact that the writers would have made her a secret pyschopath. also, Ana was a trained police officer, and she should have been able to deal with the domestic argument guy, but instead was already to shoot a clearly un-armed man. That speaks volumes (to me) about her own instability. So.......good girl? with a huge chip on her (their) shoulder? Or pure unadultared , card carrying , bonafide member of the we are physco chick(s) , walk softly around us?

Honestly, for me I don't care much for either of them. However, I care for Kate slightly more than than Ana but not because one is more girly than the other. It's more to do with how they treat people on the island. I can't stand either of them in their flashbacks. But on the island, I've at least seen Kate be kind to people quite often and help out without beating on people or screaming at them all the time. I haven't seen Ana Lucia like that at all. Even when she tries to help, she does it in such an off-putting, mean way that I don't care for. So yeah, still don't have either of them as a favorite but Kate is still a bit ahead of Ana on the list due to island comparisons.

Kate is a criminal, a wanted killer on the run from the authorities. She HAS to play nice and and do her best to ingratiate herself with the group. Last thing she wants is to be outcast from the group. She needs to give others the impression that she's a "nice girl", a "helper" and "team player". She doesn't want them to see her as The Wanted Criminal (murderer, as we now know).

Ana Lucia is an officer of the law. She is used to giving orders and taking charge in dangerous situations. Police are used to telling people what to do. They don't have to play nice in order to get people to like them. They aren't trained or oriented that way to begin with.

They are coming from completely opposite ends of the social spectrum.

BTW. I can't stand either of them. One's a user and the other's a brute.

I was hoping Kate would be wrongly accused but obviously we've seen some of her backstory now which shows she should be arrested. I still think there's some holes in the whole story and with luck they'll be filled in over future eps.

Was deeply hoping it would be more terrible than it was. Was hoping for coldblooded sociopathic no reason at all murder. Or ecoterrorism. Yeah, I was kind of rooting for Kate to be an ecoterrorist. Knew she wouldn't be...rooted for it all the same. I think that's somewhat along the lines of my UC shipping. I dream unreasonable dreams.

Wow, I always thought that she was an ecoterrorist too. I thought was the only one! :)

Wow, I always thought that she was an ecoterrorist too. I thought was the only one! :)

Kate would've been an awesome ecoterrorist. And it would have broken up the monotony of OMGJustifiedHomicide. And it would have been more interesting than this was.

IMO.

:biggrin:

I'm sorry... I guess I was under the impression that blowing a man up was pre-meditated murder. Hmmm... Guess I was wrong.

Kate is a criminal, a wanted killer on the run from the authorities. She HAS to play nice and and do her best to ingratiate herself with the group. Last thing she wants is to be outcast from the group. She needs to give others the impression that she's a "nice girl", a "helper" and "team player". She doesn't want them to see her as The Wanted Criminal (murderer, as we now know).

Ana Lucia is a criminal now too since she killed that guy in cold blood. So why doesn't she have to play nice as well if Kate does? I mean maybe AL wants to be an outsider whereas Kate doesn't but that still doesn't excuse her island behavior IMO. I'd rather have someone be a team player when you're in a place where that could mean the difference between surviving and not even if they're doing it with semi-selfish reasons.

Ana Lucia is an officer of the law. She is used to giving orders and taking charge in dangerous situations. Police are used to telling people what to do. They don't have to play nice in order to get people to like them. They aren't trained or oriented that way to begin with.

Well actually that's not true. You may be surprised at some of the work shops police have to go through during training to ensure that they will treat people fairly and kindly. Now obviously if you're at the scene of a crime dealing with the suspect you're not going to be making nice with them and you don't care that you're the bad guy to the criminal but some of the Lost people may've been criminals before the island but all bets are off on the island and Ana's still treated them badly. As a police officer, she should be just as used to taking orders as giving them. As for taking charge in dangerous situations, more often than not, Ana Lucia doesn't behave as a good police officer would anyway so she hasn't convinced me she's any good at that either.

They are coming from completely opposite ends of the social spectrum.

Maybe but it seems like the writers are trying to play up the sympathy for them both in similar ways. The whole we're only cold blooded killers because other people hurt us excuse.

Except Kate didn't kill Wayne because he hurt her. In fact, the evidence is he never touched her and that she probably wasn't living there any more.

If Kate lived at home, she wouldn't have been surprised at the splint on her mom's arm, which her mom claimed happened at home.

Nor is Kate a psychopath. She may be crazy and murderous, but she's not a psychopath. She has a conscience. It's why she's an interesting character. Sociopaths are only interesting as grotesqueries (Hannibal Lecter, for instance).

Here's how I see Kate's motivation.

At the age of 5, her father -- who she adores and thinks is a white knight -- is kicked out of her house to make room for her mother's drunk abusive lover. She blames her mom (not unjustifiably) and hates Wayne (not unjustifiably). This makes her an angry, violent kid.

She sees her "father" ocassionally, although he now lives in Tallahassee (or wherever the army sends him) and not in Iowa. She watches Wayne abuse her mom and resolves to grow up to be like her "dad" and not her mom. She feels dark urges (her anger) and attributes them to her mom's genes. She works hard for straight A's and attributes them to her dad's genese.

She's 18. She moves out of her house and continues to excel at school. Obsessed with her "dad" she decides to make a scrapbook with pictures of him in the army. She deduces her dad is, in fact, Wayne.

Her world is shattered. She had built an identity around the idea that she was torn between two genetic impulses: Austen and Mom. Now she realizes her genetics is Mom and Wayne, both people for whom she has no disrespect (although she loves and pities her mom as a victim in an abusive relationship). Nor can she believe she can be good due to her upbringing, as Austen was around sporadically at best.

Everything she had convinced herself about human nature, which once gave her hope that she could overcome her genetics and upbringing now forces her to conclude that she is iredeemably evil. That she is unworthy of love and that she is doomed to be either an abuser or a victim. And it's Wayne's fault. Every time she sees Wayne she knows he's the reason she's no good. He's the reason Austen left. He's the reason her mom is so screwed up.

She doesn't just kill Wayne. She blows up everything dark and evil about her childhood. Wayne. Her house. Her bedroom. Her things. And because she loves her mom, she tries to see if her mom might profit from the death.

But she's irresistably drawn to good people, in the hope that their love might redeem her. She goes to Austen, but he "see murder in her heart" and turns her in. She doesn't blame Austen, because she knows he's right. She has murder in her heart. She's unworthy of love.

She goes back to her doctor boyfriend when her mom is hospitalized. Also an upstanding stalwart guy. And he gets killed. Everything she touches turns black.

She meets the Aussie farmer, her third Galahad-figure. He turns her in.

Now she meets Jack, Galahad figure number 4. When she kisses him in the jungle, she is hoping his love can redeem her, can make her good and "perfect" like him, like she once thought she can be. But she also knows her darkness corrupts. It corrupted her ex-boyfriend. The Aussie farmer. So she runs away.

She's a great character. I hate characters who have nothing but goodness and light inside them. It's why Jack and Michael are my least favorite characters in this show, so far.

I'm not entirely sure that Kate did deal with abuse everyday. Now, when her father came home he made a comment like, "what are you doing here?" Based on that, I think it is possible that Kate has moved out, and she came back to visit.

Good point, I did not remember the exact dialog, but you're right in that she probably wasn't at home all the time, though probably was sometimes, as her mom said.

As far as the whole Anna Lucia v Kate thing goes I think it's a good comparison and probably meant to stir up tensions between the two (as with the obvious Jack-Anna and Jack-Kate conflict which might become a problem). Either way, killing someone is bad, regardless of justification (and should only be done when absolutely necessary), so I seem to have problems with both characters, but I think I have problems with all characters on Lost. Then again, their fictional chracters... fictional characters.

Yes, thats a Jay and Silent Bob Reference.

I'm not so much disappointed that what Kate did wasn't terrible enough, but I am disappointed that what she did had a very stupid reason.

Great well thoughtout post, Marksman. You hit a bullseye. I think that is exactly what the writers were attempting to show. I don't think they ever imagined that people would be dissatisfied that her crime was horrible enough or that her reason wasn't good enough.

To be perfectly honest there isn't a good enough reason for murder. If there was it wouldn't always be a crime. Before I get my head handed to me killing (not murdering) in self defense doesn't count.