Here's my question: When Kate returns to Sawyer's bedside, she speaks to him as if she were speaking to Wayne, even acknowledging that she may be crazy... She comes clean about why she killed him, but also says that every time she looks at Sawyer or has feelings for him, she can't help thinking of Wayne. When she says this, does she mean that Sawyer's "bad guy" image just generally elicits this memory of Wayne? Or does she just mean that only since Sawyer's cryptic "why did you do it" comment? I guess I'm confused because she certainly seemed happy enough to see that Sawyer had come to, not bothered by this association she now has with him and Wayne. Any thoughts?

I think she was happy that he came to and was clearly Sawyer and not Wayne. I think she knows she has feelings for Sawyer, and it hurts her that she knows this is because of her background. I don't know what this means for their relationship...

At first I was really bothered by her feeling guilty for liking him...it irked me that she felt sick because of her feelings for him. But the more I think about it, it has more to do with how she feels about HERSELF...than about him. She sees Sawyer as a reflection of herself...and then she knows how he's percieved by others...and she worries that she's become her father...If that makes sense...LOL

I think it was a relief for her to tell him...even if he was only half listening...I mean she was finally able to explain herself...

actually yeah that does make a lot of sense. I was particularly moved by the scene where her father basically implies that he lacks the killer instinct and yet he knew that kate possessed it. i guess she knew it too... still, it's sort of a bizarre twist to have her be with the one person who brings her back to the roots she wants to forget. and the whole kiss with jack, talk about let's see what it would be like to be with a good guy. i think jack would be better for kate as far as growing beyond this history of hers, but maybe she realizes she can't be with jack because she isn't as "good" as he is. sorry, i'm rambing......

At first I was really bothered by her feeling guilty for liking him...it irked me that she felt sick because of her feelings for him. But the more I think about it, it has more to do with how she feels about HERSELF...than about him. She sees Sawyer as a reflection of herself...and then she knows how he's percieved by others...and she worries that she's become her father...If that makes sense...LOL


That is exactly it. You have hit the nail on the head. Kate's entire character came into focus tonight. She is no different than any other person, any other woman. Deep down, she is insecure about who she is and she is worried allowing herself to feel for Sawyer would let the part of herself she doesn't like out. What she doesn't realize is, Sawyer is taking the exact same journey she is, exorcising those demons from himself, the same demons Kate had put in her by her father too.

Kate loves Sawyer because they understand each other but WANTS to love Jack because to her he represents the ultimate good on the island and thus her redemption. She kissed Jack because she was trying to force things and then backed away in realization that she had no true feelings for him.

Edited for more specific language.

wow... that sort of makes it totally clear, awesome. actually makes kate's character way more nuanced. i don't think i envisioned kate's character going in quite this direction but it definitely makes things more real... way to go writers!

Or does she just mean that only since Sawyer's cryptic "why did you do it" comment?

See, that makes more sense to me. I thought it was stupid when she's addressing her father's question of why she killed him and she starts going on about Sawyer. I mean really, what does that have to do with anything? It really took me out of the moment.

I think most of her feelings about Sawyer reside in sympathy, or even pity, more than anything. Obviously, she feels some kinship with him, but she hates that side of herself and seems to want to move on - I don't think she'd be able to do that if she was with him. Not that Sawyer can't be redeemed, too - I just don't know how helpful he'd be.

I think most of her feelings about Sawyer reside in sympathy, or even pity, more than anything. Obviously, she feels some kinship with him, but she hates that side of herself and seems to want to move on - I don't think she'd be able to do that if she was with him. Not that Sawyer can't be redeemed, too - I just don't know how helpful he'd be.

Why is it that people who overcome a problem often go back and help other people with that same problem? Because no one knows a path better than someone who has already walked it. In the same token, nothing makes a journey easier than to walk it hand and hand with someone else.

See, that makes more sense to me. I thought it was stupid when she's addressing her father's question of why she killed him and she starts going on about Sawyer. I mean really, what does that have to do with anything? It really took me out of the moment.

I think most of her feelings about Sawyer reside in sympathy, or even pity, more than anything. Obviously, she feels some kinship with him, but she hates that side of herself and seems to want to move on - I don't think she'd be able to do that if she was with him. Not that Sawyer can't be redeemed, too - I just don't know how helpful he'd be.


Well I see it a little differently...Because I think Kate is trying too hard to move on from something she hasn't faced yet. She's AFRAID to identify with Sawyer, because he's seen as 'the bad guy' (even though she knows he's not). She worries what's inside herself that makes her feel a connection to an outcast...to someone like Sawyer.

BUT it's a big part of who she is...and it's not necessarily a BAD part. She had a dark side. Let's face it...she killed someone...and I"m not entirely convinced she had a legitimate reason. Wayne was a bastard...but she killed him because she hated the idea that he was related to her. That's pretty calculating.

What Kate needs to do, is face up to she's done...and try to understand who she is...the good parts and the darker parts. And I think Sawyer is someone who has the same struggle. Once she's able to stop feeling guilty for connecting with him...I think they can really help eachother. And I think for her to vocalize her problems to him...it was helping her work through them in a way. Things were certainly sweet between them when they woke up...:). And it kind of seemed like a turning point to me. As if they were now going to be able to move forward in their friendship without all this STUFF hanging over them.

I thought there was lot of pain there when she was confessing to Sawyer. I agree w/QE she hates herself. I'm not entirely convinced there wasn't a lot more behind what Wayne did. Kate just seemed to despise him & herself beyond what he did to her mother. Not that that isn't abslutely horrific, but I've always thought she was was abused herself because it often makes you feel "unworthy" & thus you act out in ways that give credence to a negative looking glass self. Plus I thought it was odd the way she reacted to being locked in the hatch closet.

Re: the kiss she kissed Jack like she had Tom-gave into her feelings for him in spite of her knowing she probably shouldn't have vs.realizing she felt nothing for him imo. So she got embarrassed & "ran" because unlike Tom Jack didn't reject her & I think that scared her even more.

Howdy every body!!

I was so totally floored by the episode and it happened exactly as I felt it would. I knew Jack would keep quiet about "I love her." He won't say anything because as far as he knows, he wants to think Sawyer was just delirious. But if you looked closely at Jack's face, you could tell he knew Sawyer was telling the truth, and if you listen carefully you can hear him say he loved her twice.

Now, about Kate's revelations to Sawyer. I think it was more of her getting off her chest and I think now that she has she can go forward with the relationship with Sawyer. However, I don't this is something that's going to be "all golly eyes", hearts and flowers. I think it's going to be interesting to see how it plays out and I think it will take at least 2 more seasons to get him to confess it to her. Remember, he's only told Jack...Kate does not know he feels this way.

One thing I must say, it was so good to see our Sawyer back to his old, smart-a$$ self. I think things are going to get more intense as the weeks go by.

I am still trying to figure out the significance of the horse though. It brought back memories of when I was a kid....I was raised on a cattle ranch in central Texas and I had a black horse very similar to that one, though he wasn't quite as big. That was one very large horse, probably 17+ hands.

What'da y'all think?

Huggs,
Lisa

P.S. I still think Queen E is a genious!!

Here's my question: When Kate returns to Sawyer's bedside, she speaks to him as if she were speaking to Wayne, even acknowledging that she may be crazy... She comes clean about why she killed him, but also says that every time she looks at Sawyer or has feelings for him, she can't help thinking of Wayne. When she says this, does she mean that Sawyer's "bad guy" image just generally elicits this memory of Wayne? Or does she just mean that only since Sawyer's cryptic "why did you do it" comment? I guess I'm confused because she certainly seemed happy enough to see that Sawyer had come to, not bothered by this association she now has with him and Wayne. Any thoughts?


I see it a bit differently. When she said whenever she feels something for sawyer, something good, she can't help thinking of Wayne-I believe its not so much that he
reminds her of him, because he's a bad guy. I believe she see's wayne whenever anything good comes along, because she represents wayne in all her relationships.
That's why she killed him, she didn't want him to be an influence in her life. Didn't want to end up like him. I guess she thinks she already has. I don't know, maybe I make no sense. lol

I see it a bit differently. When she said whenever she feels something for sawyer, something good, she can't help thinking of Wayne-I believe its not so much that he
reminds her of him, because he's a bad guy. I believe she see's wayne whenever anything good comes along, because she represents wayne in all her relationships.
That's why she killed him, she didn't want him to be an influence in her life. Didn't want to end up like him. I guess she thinks she already has. I don't know, maybe I make no sense. lol


I don't know Los, I think you're pretty close to being on track with that idea.

P.S. I still think Queen E is a genious!!

Lisa, that is the second time you've been so kind! :)

And however untrue I believe it to be...I humbly thank you for those statements :hug:

Why is it that people who overcome a problem often go back and help other people with that same problem? Because no one knows a path better than someone who has already walked it. In the same token, nothing makes a journey easier than to walk it hand and hand with someone else.

Well, I get their redemptive journeys and all, but I've always seen a marked difference between them. While I love Sawyer, he's never had that twisted sense of righteousness that Kate does - many of his actions are just selfish and spontaneous. I guess I don't see them both being overcome with extremely similar emotional problems as a good sign for a relationship. All the qualities they seem to share are negative (plus the crushing regrets). Kate is manipulative, as is he, etc., etc. I just don't see it as a healthy combination, though I'd like to watch how it develops. If they can in the end up helping each other, well, as long as its realistic, I would certainly like to see it happen.

Frankly, Kate's too messed up to get involved with some other guy's baggage. If she can stop constantly running to these guys, she'll have taken a big step in the right direction. ;)

Well, I get their redemptive journeys and all, but I've always seen a marked difference between them. While I love Sawyer, he's never had that twisted sense of righteousness that Kate does - many of his actions are just selfish and spontaneous. I guess I don't see them both being overcome with extremely similar emotional problems as a good sign for a relationship. All the qualities they seem to share are negative (plus the crushing regrets). Kate is manipulative, as is he, etc., etc. I just don't see it as a healthy combination, though I'd like to watch how it develops. If they can in the end up helping each other, well, as long as its realistic, I would certainly like to see it happen.

Frankly, Kate's too messed up to get involved with some other guy's baggage. If she can stop constantly running to these guys, she'll have taken a big step in the right direction. ;)

See...I don't think the qualities they share are negative...I think the EXPEREINCES they share are negative. But out of those negative experiences comes an understanding that works somehow...SHRUG

I guess it's just that I don't see her running to sawyer as a negative thing...or an unhealthy pattern. I don't think she's ever really dealt with someone like him before. He's not asking anything of her...and she's not asking anything of him. They both have baggage YES...but in a wierd way, when they're around eachother it's almost like "okay, we both acknowledge that we have major issues...but so what?". When Kate lets her guard down...she knows she's free to be herself with Sawer. She's afraid of it at times...but I think it's positive.

See...I don't think the qualities they share are negative...I think the EXPEREINCES they share are negative. But out of those negative experiences comes an understanding that works somehow...SHRUG

I guess it's just that I don't see her running to sawyer as a negative thing...or an unhealthy pattern. I don't think she's ever really dealt with someone like him before. He's not asking anything of her...and she's not asking anything of him. They both have baggage YES...but in a wierd way, when they're around eachother it's almost like "okay, we both acknowledge that we have major issues...but so what?". When Kate lets her guard down...she knows she's free to be herself with Sawer. She's afraid of it at times...but I think it's positive.

Good points; I really think their relationship is interesting. I guess all I've ever seen with them is that understanding. But that's just me.

All I mean by the 'running to him' thing is that ... despite her attempts to isolate herself, she's never felt right about who she is. All the guilt and self-loathing has't helped either, so she always ends up attaching herself to someone, eventually manipulating them, and then again with the guilt and self-loathing. It seems to me that she needs to attempt to gain some sort of independence/working out of issues before she can be able to interact with people without falling on old habits... I hope that made some kind of sense, this is a really really complex and hard-to-explain.... but that's a good thing... ;)

I'm not sure why I'm so anxious about this ship; I guess I'm afraid its going to implode and hurt my beloved characters. :undecide: Hopefully not.

All that Sawyer shares with Wayne is being "white trash" and manipulating women. He's not a drunk and he's not someone whom we've ever seen harm women physically. But he's "no good" and thus represents the part of Kate that she wishes to blame on her genetic relationship to Wayne so that she can hold out hope that she isn't irredeemably bad. First she identifies with her legal father, seeing him as hope that she can be moral and heroic (he's a respected military man.) Then he rejects her. Next she clings to the vestiges of her friendship with Tom, because he's a doctor and healer. And she gets him killed. Meanwhile, the Marshal becomes the "other man" in her life on the run, and he too reminds her of her "Wayneness" as it were. And then she gets trapped on the island and the same two male choices manifest in Jack and Sawyer.

Cardie

Kate loves Sawyer because they understand each other but WANTS to love Jack because to her he represents the ultimate good on the island and thus her redemption. She kissed Jack because she was trying to force things and then backed away in realization that she had no true feelings for him.

Edited for more specific language.

I totally agree. Kate loves Sawyer. She is bothered that she loves Sawyer, because she sees him as a "bad boy", and she wants to be "good". She *wants* to love Jack, but she doesn't. She tried to force it with the kiss, but it's Sawyer that she loves and wants. I love Kate and Sawyer together.