Generally in a premeditated murder, don't you want to create some type of alibi or something so you don't have to go to jail.

Kate not only placed herself near the scene of the crime, she went to the diner, putting her in the area at the time of the crime and then admitted the crime to her mother, putting Mom in a very akward position. She took out insurance on the house!!? If you get caught blowing it up...the policy won't pay. dumb..dumb..dumb..

Similarly AL hung out in a bar stalking Jason before she killed him in the parking lot. very easy to ID her. Plenty of motive. dumb..dumb..dumb.

Both of these crimes were thought out days if not weeks in advance...cold blooded

Kate not only placed herself near the scene of the crime, she went to the diner, putting her in the area at the time of the crime and then admitted the crime to her mother, putting Mom in a very akward position. She took out insurance on the house!!? If you get caught blowing it up...the policy won't pay. dumb..dumb..dumb..

Kate did not think for a second that her mother was gonna rat her out! She had the money to fly away and would have gotten away with it if she had a couple more hours, but since her mother told the police right away they were able to catch up with her.

It's true, a pretty bad lapse of judgment for Kate. However this episode pretty much proves that she is not a very nice person.

They're is a big line you cross when you murder someone in cold blood like that. I loved here step father though. "I don't have murder in my heart" I thought that was a nice line.

Poor Kate though, even if she is a murderer she's come a long way on the island. Hopefully she can continue in her quest for redemption and not die like Boone and Shannon.

And what a stupid reason to kill someone! Killing him because she hated him and didn't want to be related to him is whack! I really don't like Kate very much now.

And what a stupid reason to kill someone! Killing him because she hated him and didn't want to be related to him is whack! I really don't like Kate very much now.

yeah and i am sure that whole beating the crap out of her mom thing played a small part in that as well.

yeah and i am sure that whole beating the crap out of her mom thing played a small part in that as well.
Plus the way he looked at her. "you're beautiful " Ugh!

Yeah I don't believe Wayne was a good person for a second. But you know... he didn't murder anyone in cold blood. He was just an abusive pig to Kates mom so far... which is still pretty bad and leads me to believe they're is more

I don't think Kate intended to kill Wayne. I think she was about to kill herself when Wayne pulled up. That is why she was playing with the lighter like that.

Plus the way he looked at her. "you're beautiful " Ugh!

You know, i was kinda grossed out by this too, but then after I found out that he was Kate's father, maybe it could be looked at in another light...... he had to have also known that he was her father, and maybe he was just proud. I know that I dont think its wierd when my dad says I am pretty....... maybe it only sounded creepy because he was drunk and we didnt know that he was her father. He may have just been happy to have such a lovely daughter......

Are we saying Kate & Ana are dumber than Charlie who murdered someone in front of a group of witnesses who know him?

Are we saying they are dumber than Sawyer who was conned into killing the wrong person? At least Ana, Kate & Charlie identified their victims before killing them.

I don't think any of the crash survivors could make a living as a hit man. (Well maybe Locke or Sayid have the skills & talent but they lack the desire)However that is the point, they are not accustomed to murder as a way of life. They entered into it as amateurs who (correctly or incorrectly) felt they had cause.

And what a stupid reason to kill someone! Killing him because she hated him and didn't want to be related to him is whack! I really don't like Kate very much now.

I think that what a lot of people are missing with this whole Kate situation is something that her father said... he said that he knew that she would kill him. That implies that Kate had killed before.

You know, i was kinda grossed out by this too, but then after I found out that he was Kate's father, maybe it could be looked at in another light...... he had to have also known that he was her father, and maybe he was just proud. I know that I dont think its wierd when my dad says I am pretty....... maybe it only sounded creepy because he was drunk and we didnt know that he was her father. He may have just been happy to have such a lovely daughter......

Yeah, except for the whole part where he asked if she was going to take his pants off.

Well, smart people don't rob a bank for a toy plane, so I wasn't surprised at Kate's actions in this episode.


Are we saying they are dumber than Sawyer who was conned into killing the wrong person? At least Ana, Kate & Charlie identified their victims before killing them.


As far as he knew, Sawyer had identified his victim. Ana is the only one who committed murder without identifying the person.

And what a stupid reason to kill someone! Killing him because she hated him and didn't want to be related to him is whack! I really don't like Kate very much now.
I think that whole 'last straw' phrase is apropos here.

Unlike Kate, Ana Lucia didn't get caught. How does this make AL a dumb murderer?

Well, smart people don't rob a bank for a toy plane, so I wasn't surprised at Kate's actions in this episode.
As far as he knew, Sawyer had identified his victim. Ana is the only one who committed murder without identifying the person.Sawyer was told the shrimp cook was the con man who had swindled his parents, but he was not that person. Sawyer killed an innocent third party not the person he was after. So he did not in my opinion correctly id the man he killed.

Ana recognised and stalked the person she was after. She lied about recognising him at the police station in order to get him released so she could get at him.

Sawyer was told the shrimp cook was the con man who had swindled his parents, but he was not that person. Sawyer killed an innocent third party not the person he was after. So he did not in my opinion correctly id the man he killed.

Of course he didn't, but from his point of view, he believed he had. Ana-Lucia didnt make any effort at all to identify Shannon before ending her existence.

Of course he didn't, but from his point of view, he believed he had. Ana-Lucia didnt make any effort at all to identify Shannon before ending her existence.His belief was incorrect, so he thought wrong and shot the wrong person. With Ana she identified and murdered the perp who shot her. Killing Shannon was an accident, not the premeditated murder this thread is discussing.

His belief was incorrect, so he thought wrong and shot the wrong person.

Yes, I've said the same. It's well-established that Sawyer was wrong. I just thought it was worth pointing out, in response to what you said, that he did -- to the best of his knowledge -- identify his target, whereas Ana-Lucia did not make any effort to identify Shannon. It isn't relevant to this topic of pre-meditated murder, no, but it's relevant to the issue you brought up in comparing whether or not Sawyer, Ana-Lucia, Charlie and Kate identified their victims.

Yes, I've said the same. It's well-established that Sawyer was wrong. I just thought it was worth pointing out, in response to what you said, that he did -- to the best of his knowledge -- identify his target, whereas Ana-Lucia did not make any effort to identify Shannon. It isn't relevant to this topic of pre-meditated murder, no, but it's relevant to the issue you brought up in comparing whether or not Sawyer, Ana-Lucia, Charlie and Kate identified their victims.OK I will concede that point. I was trying to limit my comparison to deliberate killings. Accidents will happen no matter what your IQ is. I think the main thing I would bring out is that Ana & Kate were no dumber than Sawyer or Charlie - I really don't consider any one of the 4 as having thought it through once their emotions/desire for vengeance or what ever kicked in where the premeditated murders are concerned.

OK I will concede that point. I was trying to limit my comparison to deliberate killings. Accidents will happen no matter what your IQ is. I think the main thing I would bring out is that Ana & Kate were no dumber than Sawyer or Charlie - I really don't consider any one of the 4 as having thought it through once their emotions/desire for vengeance or what ever kicked in where the premeditated murders are concerned.

I agree. None of them planned it out well, although with Charlie, he probably felt he didn't need to, correctly anticipating he wouldn't be punished.

The difference between AL and Kate is the way that AL treated people once we got to see her - and that caused lots of dislike for her - just based on the way she treated people - commanded, dictated, etc.. Kate on the other hand, comes off as nice and caring -- however, we've seen her beat the crap out of people - throw the marshall out of the car, etc, etc.. all the way up to causing the house with her no good ewwy dad in it to blow up. BUT! Even if he was the worst person on earth - and regardless of what he did, that did not give her license to kill him. Intent and planning.

Kate's actions are no different than AL. I did like Kate - but I've lost almost all respect for her. I want to say that because she doesn't treat people as harshly as AL does, that she's more bearable - but something about feeling that way doesn't sit right with me. Actions speak louder than words - and both of their actions are pretty similar.

yeah and i am sure that whole beating the crap out of her mom thing played a small part in that as well.

Kate said that wasn't her reason for doing it. She said it was because she hated the fact that she came from him, was part of him.

I am not really totally trying to defend Kate, but you do have to look at the fact that maybe she isn't dumb, but mentally disturbed.

She obviously grew up in an abusive household. The man who she thought was her father, who she loved dearly left and was replaced by a jerk.. she then finds out that all along this jerk is her real father. All of that takes a toll and coping mechanisms break down. What seems logical to her may not be what we see as logical.

Where did she get this awesome ability to fight men? Well probably because she had to fight off her father many times. Self defense -

What she did was wrong, but I don't feel it was done just becasue she is mean. I think she is mentally disturbed... just like some or maybe most? people who grow up in abusive relations.

I am not really totally trying to defend Kate, but you do have to look at the fact that maybe she isn't dumb, but mentally disturbed.

She obviously grew up in an abusive household. The man who she thought was her father, who she loved dearly left and was replaced by a jerk.. she then finds out that all along this jerk is her real father. All of that takes a toll and coping mechanisms break down. What seems logical to her may not be what we see as logical.

Where did she get this awesome ability to fight men? Well probably because she had to fight off her father many times. Self defense -

What she did was wrong, but I don't feel it was done just becasue she is mean. I think she is mentally disturbed... just like some or maybe most? people who grow up in abusive relations.

I agree that Kate's not dumb. It's true that emotionally disturbed people don't always think or act straight. (It's also true that it's easier for those unfamiliar with living in an abusive household to dismiss the psychological damage it does, especially to children.)

Even if Kate didn't experience direct abuse from Wayne (and that's still open for discussion), she experienced secondhand abuse watching the parent she loved being abused. Witnessing this chips away at a person's "normalcy". It's very likely it would leave Kate with a seriously damaged self-image (especially her self-image as a woman) and a deep distrust of men, love and being loved. Just the fact that she felt that her worth as a human being was rooted in her parentage is a pretty good indication that she wasn't thinking straight.

It's a safe bet that because of her trust issues, she would find herself attracted to men yet backing off from them at the same time. She would adopt a persona that would make her likeable to others, but the real problems would still exist underneath, making their way to the surface and expressing themselves in manipulation of others and a certain ruthlessness in doing whatever she needed to do in order to protect herself.

I can see all these things in Kate. Especially in her relationships with Jack and Sawyer. My personal opinion about her relationship with Jack is that she's transferring the feelings she had for Tom, who accepted her totally for who she was and who grew up to be a doctor, to Dr. Jack. I think that's why she shouted at Jack that she was sorry she could never be good enough or as good as him. She may love Sawyer, but I think she's looking for approval and acceptance from Jack......

I can see all these things in Kate. Especially in her relationships with Jack and Sawyer. My personal opinion about her relationship with Jack is that she's transferring the feelings she had for Tom, who accepted her totally for who she was and who grew up to be a doctor, to Dr. Jack. I think that's why she shouted at Jack that she was sorry she could never be good enough or as good as him. She may love Sawyer, but I think she's looking for approval and acceptance from Jack......

Wow, you are so right, I didn't pick up on this. Jack is her Tom and Sawyer is the bad boy that she feels she can relate to or is only good enough for.

I am truly amazed at the deep character development of Kate.... No not dumb at all, just an extremely complex person. I give much kudos to the people responsible for Kate's character development. So much thought has gone into it.

I won't pretend that I am not biased towards the character of Kate, because I think she is endlessly deep and symbolic, and I could over-analyze her character for days!

But you know what really made me empathize with her so much more after this episode... is that she is truly alone... the guy she thought was her "good" daddy left her in the clutches of her real father who was a first class Jack-***, she had to grow up watching her mom be beaten by the guy she loved too much to leave even for her daughter's sake, then when she got her mom out of the horrible marriage she turned her in, she has no one, no one has ever been on her side, ever faught for her physically or emotionally, even Tom was a wimp and stood by watching her suffer... from the beginning she's had no one, she must have like zero self-esteem, and she's always believed that she has no chance for goodness, for redemption, what a hopeless way to live, my heart breaks for her... her kiss of desperation with Jack, trying to suck out his goodness, trying to be the girl that wants him, while she just can't deny her desire for Sawyer, for the bad... but then again he's had a crappy life too... when she killed her dad, although she said she did it because she didn't want to be like him, clearly she did it for her mother, for them both, to be free, or she just would have left and never looked back, she also didn't want to be her mother.... wow her character is just so deep, I could over-analyze her for days... her murder wasn't about revenge, it was about freedom, but ironically it trampped her into a life of running, a life of fear

I think Kate was purposely portrayed as a "dumb" murderer, because they wanted to emphasize that although she killed someone, she's not a murderer. The marshal termed it "amateur hour," and rightly so. A gas leak is the lamest excuse, especially after taking out insurance on the house, straight-up telling her mother, not buying her ticket beforehand, etc. The whole point was that she's not a hardcore, cold-blooded murderer. She killed Wayne in a premeditated way, yes, but she was an innocent "corn-fed farmgirl." Not a killer.

*climbs up on soapbox*

I think we should all keep in mind that as a species, we are the most violent creatures on Earth. Whether we choose to believe it about ourselves or not, given the right circumstances and motivation we are all capable of murder (or at least the attempt).

And sorry, but the *oh, but I would never do it for those reasons!* argument won't fly because then we digress into a conversation like the old joke that ends with, "We've established what you are ... we're just negotiating the price."

It seemed as tho kate lied when she said he (Wayne) never touched her.
Incest/pedophile dad that beat her ma.
ICK!

It seemed as tho kate lied when she said he (Wayne) never touched her.
Incest/pedophile dad that beat her ma.
ICK!

Why do you think she lied?

The look on her face when asked.
She had THAT look like she didn't reveal the truth.
Maybe I'm wrong, but it appeared that way.