In the opening scenes, Juliet is shown apparently trying to compose herself. She seems upset about something and trying to take comfort in the music ("Downtown") that she just put on. It looks like she goes back and forth a few times between being upset and focusing on the song. She's obviously getting ready for the Book Club meeting.

It looks like whatever happened just prior (or that she thought of/remembered) upset her enough to forget about the muffins in the oven.

We know that there appears to be tension between her and Fenry-Ben, and we saw their exchange after everyone gathered outside (his comment about being out of the book club). Maybe she was antsy about holding a book club meeting where Fenry-Ben had been left out, and worried about his reaction to it. And then there was her comment about "free will" at the meeting...

Then again, it might not have anything to do with Fenry-Ben.

Any thoughts on this scene?

In the opening scenes, Juliet is shown apparently trying to compose herself. She seems upset about something and trying to take comfort in the music ("Downtown") that she just put on. It looks like she goes back and forth a few times between being upset and focusing on the song. She's obviously getting ready for the Book Club meeting.

It looks like whatever happened just prior (or that she thought of/remembered) upset her enough to forget about the muffins in the oven.

We know that there appears to be tension between her and Fenry-Ben, and we saw their exchange after everyone gathered outside (his comment about being out of the book club). Maybe she was antsy about holding a book club meeting where Fenry-Ben had been left out, and worried about his reaction to it. And then there was her comment about "free will" at the meeting...

Then again, it might not have anything to do with Fenry-Ben.

Any thoughts on this scene?

I've been thinking about this too. But my impression was that possibly Juliet and Ben were a couple and they just broke up?? That would fit with his comment about not being in the book club anymore. But she was certainly rattled at the beginning there and I'm not sure why she would be acting that way over a breakup unless there were more serious repercussions than usual.
And I was DYING for her to be able to finish the "free will" comment. That was SO frustrating!!
I guess we'll have to wait for more tidbits on this. :undecide:

Yeah, I was wondering about this scene as well! Why did she seem so distraught? Maybe we will find out in a flashback some time. Also, I noticed that there was tension between her and Benry. Maybe people's theories of two Other factions is really just those who are on either Julliet or Ben's side.

She was combative in general, not just with Fenry but with the other guy in the book club.

Her listening to the music and seeming to be upset in the very beginning just made me think she was Penny, I didn't have a chance to think of anything else until I realised she wasn't.

My first reaction was that this was her beginning-of-the-day routine (given the resemblance to the opening sequence last season with Desmond in the Hatch) -- she wakes up in the morning and realizes that it's yet another day in "paradise" or whatever warped reality the Others live in, and this is how she composes herself to face yet one more day in Stepford Village.

But as someone pointed out, she was in the middle of cooking muffins, so you have to ask: what caused her to lose her composure?

Assuming it was an hour or so before the plane crash, the only thing I can think of is the following: she just learned that Desmond had killed Kelvin.

It looks like whatever happened just prior (or that she thought of/remembered) upset her enough to forget about the muffins in the oven.

Am i the only one who is curious why she has a "muffin-burned-to-coal-timer" because, her timer rings and the muffins are gone... O_o

My first reaction was that this was her beginning-of-the-day routine (given the resemblance to the opening sequence last season with Desmond in the Hatch) -- she wakes up in the morning and realizes that it's yet another day in "paradise" or whatever warped reality the Others live in, and this is how she composes herself to face yet one more day in Stepford Village.
Reading this makes me wonder if "Manic Monday" will open Season 4. ;)

If she was upset enough about something, she may have forgotten to set a timer. Or maybe they don't have timers in Stepford Village.

Assuming it was an hour or so before the plane crash, the only thing I can think of is the following: she just learned that Desmond had killed Kelvin.
That would be interesting...we haven't seen anything yet on The Others discovering what happened to Kelvin.

Someone on the "Wrong CD" thread thought that maybe she was surprised to hear "Downtown"; i.e., perhaps someone else misplaced the CD in the case.

Maybe misplacing CD's in their cases is a pet peeve with Juliet!:biggrin:

As usual, shall we repeat together: "I'll have to watch that again"... ;)
100%
Am i the only one who is curious why she has a "muffin-burned-to-coal-timer" because, her timer rings and the muffins are gone... O_o
Just saw this...if a timer rang, then I would wonder if "there's something about Time" on The Island. IOW, Time doesn't always "progress forward" at a normal, regular pace.

Then again, if she was upset or in a hurry, she might merely have mis-set the timer.

Am i the only one who is curious why she has a "muffin-burned-to-coal-timer" because, her timer rings and the muffins are gone... O_o

Ya, I noticed that as well, thought it was kind of weird, but figured it doesn't mean anything in the grand scheme.

Then again, if she was upset or in a hurry, she might merely have mis-set the timer.
if this is true, then she wouldn't have had a reason to run to the oven... that pretty weird to me, probably the muffins arent burned, and just brownie-all-choclate-style and just look like burned

My immediate impression of Juliet was that she was definitely nervous about something. Probably had to do w/ hosting the book club, maybe the first time w/out Benry in attendance. I love the Petula Clark song, but it seemed an odd choice for the emotional resonance of the moment. Throughout the epi. TPTB seemed to hint at some serious history between her and Benry. I guess we'll find out in due time, as usual. How messed up was it that he was willing to sacrifice her to drown w/ Jack in the Hydra hatch? The guy is seriously cold blooded and ruthlessly calculating. And how symbolic was it that Juliet's plumbing was not working properly in Stepfordtown? Could that have something to do w/ The Others predilection for kidnapping children? Makes you go "Hmmm ..."

Hello, chiming in for... what is this one? like the 3rd one ever for me on this board?
After my second veiwing of the show, and being oriented to the time and place as it were. My thoughts about the opening scene changed quite abit from when I watched it the first time. You see, Julliet was in the moment of that song, and Petula Clark's 'Downtown' was what she wanted to hear. It was if she was picturing herself in another time and place. Downtown is not only the song title but where she wanted to be. IMO, if there is an "other" that can be turned, it's her. She wants off the island.
Now where is the thread that talks about why Sarah is smiling as she walks out on Jack in the lawyers office?

My first reaction was that this was her beginning-of-the-day routine (given the resemblance to the opening sequence last season with Desmond in the Hatch) -- she wakes up in the morning and realizes that it's yet another day in "paradise" or whatever warped reality the Others live in, and this is how she composes herself to face yet one more day in Stepford Village.

But as someone pointed out, she was in the middle of cooking muffins, so you have to ask: what caused her to lose her composure?

Assuming it was an hour or so before the plane crash, the only thing I can think of is the following: she just learned that Desmond had killed Kelvin.

She wasn't in "the middle" of cooking muffins, though. She was wearing a diiferent shirt, maybe pajamas, than what she wore when she got the muffins out. It was like they made it obvious that she was going through a routine, and you can even see the bathtub in the mirror (lower left hand of mirror.) I like the idea that she is realizing that she is still "here" on this island with a bunch of nuts who won't even let her read a Stephen King novel for their book club.

As far as the timer going off, I thought it was just the smoke alarm. It stops when she starts fanning the smoke away.

That or if was a timer, then maybe it had just been going off for a while? Remember, it took her a while to even realize it was going off because of the music. SO maybe it had been dinging for a few min.

if this is true, then she wouldn't have had a reason to run to the oven... that pretty weird to me, probably the muffins arent burned, and just brownie-all-choclate-style and just look like burned
If she mis-set a timer for "too long", that could cause burnt muffins.;)


As far as the timer going off, I thought it was just the smoke alarm. It stops when she starts fanning the smoke away.

Excellent! Then we just need to figure out why she didn't set a timer. I am still liking the idea of her setting a timer, but Time doesn't flow normally/consistently...but that's just me.;)

Methinks TPTB are just too good at leaving "open doors" (to interpretation).;)

My immediate impression of Juliet was that she was definitely nervous about something. Probably had to do w/ hosting the book club, maybe the first time w/out Benry in attendance. I love the Petula Clark song, but it seemed an odd choice for the emotional resonance of the moment. Throughout the epi. TPTB seemed to hint at some serious history between her and Benry. I guess we'll find out in due time, as usual. How messed up was it that he was willing to sacrifice her to drown w/ Jack in the Hydra hatch? The guy is seriously cold blooded and ruthlessly calculating. And how symbolic was it that Juliet's plumbing was not working properly in Stepfordtown? Could that have something to do w/ The Others predilection for kidnapping children? Makes you go "Hmmm ..."

Woah on the plumbing. This is why I love the Fuse.

As far as the timer going off, I thought it was just the smoke alarm. It stops when she starts fanning the smoke away.

That or if was a timer, then maybe it had just been going off for a while? Remember, it took her a while to even realize it was going off because of the music. SO maybe it had been dinging for a few min.

This was my take on the scene as well.

My take on "Downtown" is in relation to the episode title. I don't think it's coincedence that "Downtown" was played at the beginning of "A Tale of Two Cities." I don't quite have anywhere to go with that... but "downtown" and "city" are words that go together.

Excellent! Then we just need to figure out why she didn't set a timer. I am still liking the idea of her setting a timer, but Time doesn't flow normally/consistently...but that's just me.;)
.

It could be something so simple as just not setting a timer. I know I dont sometimes, I just look at the clock...

After my second veiwing of the show, and being oriented to the time and place as it were. My thoughts about the opening scene changed quite abit from when I watched it the first time. You see, Julliet was in the moment of that song, and Petula Clark's 'Downtown' was what she wanted to hear. It was if she was picturing herself in another time and place. Downtown is not only the song title but where she wanted to be. IMO, if there is an "other" that can be turned, it's her. She wants off the island.
I came back to your post after reading the ones below.

I think you're onto something about "Downtown (http://www.lyricsxp.com/lyrics/d/downtown_petula_clark.html)"...
When you're alone and life is making you lonely
You can always go - downtown
When you've got worries, all the noise and the hurry
Seems to help, I know - downtown

Juliet in the mirror, and the song's lyrics relate to and foreshadow the theme of "escape" in this epi.
My immediate impression of Juliet was that she was definitely nervous about something. Probably had to do w/ hosting the book club, maybe the first time w/out Benry in attendance. I love the Petula Clark song, but it seemed an odd choice for the emotional resonance of the moment. Throughout the epi. TPTB seemed to hint at some serious history between her and Benry. I guess we'll find out in due time, as usual. How messed up was it that he was willing to sacrifice her to drown w/ Jack in the Hydra hatch? The guy is seriously cold blooded and ruthlessly calculating. And how symbolic was it that Juliet's plumbing was not working properly in Stepfordtown? Could that have something to do w/ The Others predilection for kidnapping children? Makes you go "Hmmm ..."
Woah on the plumbing. This is why I love the Fuse.

This was my take on the scene as well.

My take on "Downtown" is in relation to the episode title. I don't think it's coincedence that "Downtown" was played at the beginning of "A Tale of Two Cities." I don't quite have anywhere to go with that... but "downtown" and "city" are words that go together.
Before the airing, I had assumed it meant a city off-Island (FB) and the Others' camp/home. And I still think that after seeing it.

I agree with Buck on the symbolism; recall that the plumber (unseen but speculated to be Ethan) said (somewhat paraphrasing) "it's a work in progress".

She wasn't in "the middle" of cooking muffins, though. She was wearing a diiferent shirt, maybe pajamas, than what she wore when she got the muffins out. It was like they made it obvious that she was going through a routine, and you can even see the bathtub in the mirror (lower left hand of mirror.) I like the idea that she is realizing that she is still "here" on this island with a bunch of nuts who won't even let her read a Stephen King novel for their book club.

I noticed that too after watching the scene again. So I'm back to thinking that the opening sequence in front of the mirror was Juliet beginning her day with the realization that she's still stuck on this godforsaken island, and going to her "happy place" by playing the song "Downtown" -- and I agree that it's no coincidence that the song is "Downtown" and that it's in the CD case for "Speaking in Tongues". And the burning muffins sequence is much later in the day.

One slightly darker possibility is that there's some kind of psychological training or brainwashing going on here, and that the song is a "trigger" that helps her supress her anxiety.

I love the way the writers are able to introduce a brand new character and make her riveting right away. Her favorite book is "Carrie"? That opens some frightening possibilities for the future!

I thought after the mirror scene was her flashblack to the burnt muffin/book club/ plane crash scene. the last day she was with live Ethan, the man who liked to go downtown.

I think the reference to the ongoing plumbing problem was just to show that they have normal problems, just like everybody else.

ie a move to bring them down to be more like normal people, not superhuman, superintelligent, supercapable beings.

It certainly leaves the door open for back story on the "others". Already I get the sense that things are not well in otherville and will take us into the history of the island as we've been told we would see.

I think the reference to the ongoing plumbing problem was just to show that they have normal problems, just like everybody else.

ie a move to bring them down to be more like normal people, not superhuman, superintelligent, supercapable beings.

I think you're exactly right about the plumbing -- this was an effort to show that while they have this pretty nice Stepvillage, they're still surviving on a mostly uninhabited island, with jerry-rigged equipment left over from a time when the DHARMA research facility was more fully staffed. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the last time they've had contact with the outside world was in the early 80s, before the "incident" referenced on the Blast Door Map. I don't think it's an accident that the Talking Heads "Speaking in Tongues" album came out in 1983 ... however the CD version didn't come out until 1990, so unless that's a television production error this muddies things up a bit.

To me the jury's still out on whether the Others have any extraordinary characteristics (strength, speed); the idea that Goodwin could run hard for an hour and reach the tail section may suggest this, plus Juliet's KO of Jack. But there was a definite attempt to put them in a more "normal" setting -- which to me just highlighted what a strange little community it really is. I'm in the camp with those who think they were not expecting the plane crash at all, but have seen similar things happen and are opportunistic about taking advantage, either to gain new recruits or test subjects, it's hard to know.

I think she was living the words to the song. She was longing for "before" Otherville

The lights are much brighter there
You can forget all your troubles, forget all your cares
So go downtown, things'll be great when you're
Downtown - no finer place, for sure
Downtown - everything's waiting for you

She wants to go "Downtown" and leave the island. :cool:

I think you're exactly right about the plumbing -- this was an effort to show that while they have this pretty nice Stepvillage, they're still surviving on a mostly uninhabited island, with jerry-rigged equipment left over from a time when the DHARMA research facility was more fully staffed. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the last time they've had contact with the outside world was in the early 80s, before the "incident" referenced on the Blast Door Map. I don't think it's an accident that the Talking Heads "Speaking in Tongues" album came out in 1983 ... however the CD version didn't come out until 1990, so unless that's a television production error this muddies things up a bit.

To me the jury's still out on whether the Others have any extraordinary characteristics (strength, speed); the idea that Goodwin could run hard for an hour and reach the tail section may suggest this, plus Juliet's KO of Jack. But there was a definite attempt to put them in a more "normal" setting -- which to me just highlighted what a strange little community it really is. I'm in the camp with those who think they were not expecting the plane crash at all, but have seen similar things happen and are opportunistic about taking advantage, either to gain new recruits or test subjects, it's hard to know.

Regarding the running and strength. Judging from the distance the plane crashes were 2-4 miles away from Othersville.. Even if it was 6 miles at 1 hour you'd only have to run a pace of 1 mile per 10 minutes (6 mph or slightly more then a brisk jog).. I'm in shape now and I can heartily run 4 miles in 30 minutes(at 8mph).. Marathon runners run nearly 27 miles for 4-5 hours in a row. I think its very easy that Goodwin or Ethan could have made it to the crash sites quickly (not to mention they are both are healthy and tall/long legged). They know the Island and I am sure they could have sped through trails/beaches that they were very accustomed too.. I think the others in general live very active lifestyles. I would also imagine that they keep sensible diets (not a lot of processed crap junk food to eat i'm sure). Therefore they are not superhuman.. They are in very good shape, keep good diets and know the island backwards and forwards. And I’d also like to point out when the others have engaged the stronger losties they have lost in hand to hand combat almost every time. Jack was able to best Ethan. Eko easily demolished 2 people and Ana Lucia was able to take Goodwin and another.

Regarding the running and strength. Judging from the distance the plane crashes were 2-4 miles away from Othersville.. Even if it was 6 miles at 1 hour you'd only have to run a pace of 1 mile per 10 minutes (6 mph or slightly more then a brisk jog).. I'm in shape now and I can heartily run 4 miles in 30 minutes(at 8mph).. Marathon runners run nearly 27 miles for 4-5 hours in a row. I think its very easy that Goodwin or Ethan could have made it to the crash sites quickly (not to mention they are both are healthy and tall/long legged). They know the Island and I am sure they could have sped through trails/beaches that they were very accustomed too.. I think the others in general live very active lifestyles. I would also imagine that they keep sensible diets (not a lot of processed crap junk food to eat i'm sure). Therefore they are not superhuman.. They are in very good shape, keep good diets and know the island backwards and forwards. And I’d also like to point out when the others have engaged the stronger losties they have lost in hand to hand combat almost every time. Jack was able to best Ethan. Eko easily demolished 2 people and Ana Lucia was able to take Goodwin and another.

But we're not talking about running on a STREET or sidewalk or other nicely smooth and open surface - we're talking about trekking through the jungle and at times somewhat hilly or mountainous terrain. That is not the same thing as a sprint. It took the tailies a few DAYS of hiking to get the the Fusies beach. Originally, the Swan hatch was supposedly a couple hour hike into the jungle from the camp at the beach - but now they seem to have turned it into just a 20 minute stroll. Nothing has been said specifically as to how long it takes them, but considering the seeming ease with which they go back and forth, they seem to have made it out to be a shorter distance than it was originally. My feeling is that the writers and production team just aren't worrying so much about all these little distance details etc. I think that as the story has evolved they have just written things a certain way, without really worrying about the minor discrepancies of what has been either shown or said before (at least to a degree). Not to say that they are being careless - just that it probably isn't that important in the grand scheme of things.

Just my :twocents:

I'm thinking that the answers lie in the Music... The sone is about listening to "City Noise" and it making you feel better.... I'm thinking that Juliet wants to be in the City and off the Island.....

This could be why she helps Jack and the Losties.

Others Jeep.

How messed up was it that he was willing to sacrifice her to drown w/ Jack in the Hydra hatch? The guy is seriously cold blooded and ruthlessly calculating.

Is he? Or is Benry a man of faith too?


however the CD version didn't come out until 1990, so unless that's a television production error this muddies things up a bit.

I don't think these people make errors, particularly in light of the first orientation film being 8mm, the second being video tape and now a CD - this was absolutely intentional.

After my second veiwing of the show, and being oriented to the time and place as it were. My thoughts about the opening scene changed quite abit from when I watched it the first time. You see, Julliet was in the moment of that song, and Petula Clark's 'Downtown' was what she wanted to hear. It was if she was picturing herself in another time and place. Downtown is not only the song title but where she wanted to be. IMO, if there is an "other" that can be turned, it's her. She wants off the island.

Juliet's changing emotions in the mirror as she listens to the song were interesting..she was, in the end, working on putting on a mask (face) that was appropriate for her day....she seemed to come to the "I'll wear my happy mask" moment

I'm thinking that the answers lie in the Music... The sone is about listening to "City Noise" and it making you feel better.... I'm thinking that Juliet wants to be in the City and off the Island......

I agree Juliet could be sick of Stepford Othersville and want out....or maybe she is the Queen of the Stepford woman and is like Ben, manipulative and controlling....I dunno yet but she is certainly intriguing

First let me say, great theories and ideas everybody. It's always a treat to do the weekly lost 'read-up' here at the Fuselage.

My take on Juliet's behaviour that very morning is that she is in the grips of a dilemma. She had apparently previously made the decision to have the book club without Benry. Whilst looking in the mirror, maybe she is realizing that her gesture of defiance (and rebellion perhaps) against the apparent leader might have been a tad ill-advised.

I'm thinking that the answers lie in the Music... The sone is about listening to "City Noise" and it making you feel better.... I'm thinking that Juliet wants to be in the City and off the Island.....

This could be why she helps Jack and the Losties.

I've been thinking that the details of the first scene are telling us that Juliet is very angry about something, and perhaps anger isn't an acceptable emotion in Otherville. They're all so supremely rational and cool-headed, regardless of the circumstances - maybe anger is frowned upon in their evolved view of themselves.

In any case, I wondered if the fact that she chose the Talking Heads CD (case) was perhaps a clue to her mood. If she thought that the Speaking in tongues CD was in its rightful case, she would have expected to hear the first song, "Burning Down the House." That fits with her conflict over trying to express/compose herself, as essentially in the scene she does kind of burn down the house. It's interesting that instead, the CD in the case was Petula Clark's "Downtown," a much more civilized, mellow scenario for dealing with feelings of upset- just go downtown (or host a book group), listen to the city, be civilized. A dramatically different approach from Burning Down the House. So she adjusts her mood to the song (with some effort, it seemed to me), mellows out, and ends up burning the muffins, and herself regardless. It would be interesting to know why that CD was in that case, and who put it there.

Also, the book Carrie goes with this well, I think. Carrie essentially gets so angry that her rage sets the whole town on fire. And it's Juliet's favorite book?
Yikes. I think she's angry.

In his book Walden Two B.F. Skinner had a community where behavior modifications were used to get rid of negative emotions like anger and jealousy. Maybe they didn't work on her and she is just 'pretending' to fit in because the alternative would be...bad?

In his book Walden Two B.F. Skinner had a community where behavior modifications were used to get rid of negative emotions like anger and jealousy. Maybe they didn't work on her and she is just 'pretending' to fit in because the alternative would be...bad?

Very, very bad?:eek2:

I've been thinking that the details of the first scene are telling us that Juliet is very angry about something, and perhaps anger isn't an acceptable emotion in Otherville. They're all so supremely rational and cool-headed, regardless of the circumstances - maybe anger is frowned upon in their evolved view of themselves.

In any case, I wondered if the fact that she chose the Talking Heads CD (case) was perhaps a clue to her mood. If she thought that the Speaking in tongues CD was in its rightful case, she would have expected to hear the first song, "Burning Down the House." That fits with her conflict over trying to express/compose herself, as essentially in the scene she does kind of burn down the house. It's interesting that instead, the CD in the case was Petula Clark's "Downtown," a much more civilized, mellow scenario for dealing with feelings of upset- just go downtown (or host a book group), listen to the city, be civilized. A dramatically different approach from Burning Down the House. So she adjusts her mood to the song (with some effort, it seemed to me), mellows out, and ends up burning the muffins, and herself regardless. It would be interesting to know why that CD was in that case, and who put it there.

Also, the book Carrie goes with this well, I think. Carrie essentially gets so angry that her rage sets the whole town on fire. And it's Juliet's favorite book?
Yikes. I think she's angry.

Totally agree with what you have said re Burning Down the House and Carrie analogy....I feel Juliet is a cauldron of suppressed emotions and its coming out in passive/aggressive overtures...tossing the muffins, aggressive stance in bookclub, and in her interviewing of Jack....gentle but aggressive at times i.e. nibbling on the cheese sandwich as she walks away after Jack has just bared his soul....quietly tazering Sawyer (how cute was he as he gazed at this beautiful blonde apparition before she zapped him :biggrin: )...then of course she is so sweet to Jack as she gets him stop the water etc and then punches his lights out once they are safe....This woman is a mystery and dangerously quiet on the surface....don't really know whats going on underneath her mask

My take on Juliet's behaviour that very morning is that she is in the grips of a dilemma. She had apparently previously made the decision to have the book club without Benry. Whilst looking in the mirror, maybe she is realizing that her gesture of defiance (and rebellion perhaps) against the apparent leader might have been a tad ill-advised.

Juliet is taking her own Leap of Faith here, probably a tentative first step of rebellion against Benry's strong-armed control of their group. Perhaps it was ill-advised, but perhaps she's been left w/ no other choice. They've been there for a long time, and I think Juliet's been chaffing at the bit under Benry's control. She's obviously a very intelligent, quick-thinking, and strong independent personality. And she seems to enjoy a certain level of leadership within their group, albeit in deference to Benry. It will be very interesting to learn the history of their group as this season progresses, b/c I think we're going to see a lot more friction between Benry & Juliet. The question will be if any of the "other" Others feel the same way she does. Because if she is trying to get out from under Benry's thumb, will she be able to garner support for any real rebellion from anybody else? I suspect that more of them are ready to be out of the Book Club too.

My money is on Juliet defecting to the 'good' side before this season is over. Perhaps even earlier.

I find it very hard to imagine the imprisoned Lostee's making for their own escape without the help of some-one on the other's side.

I suspect that's where they are heading w/ this subplot too. The Losties are definitely going to need some help to get out of the hell they are in. It will be interesting to see how many of the Others are ready to go over to the good side too. I think TPTB are setting up for a pretty intense power struggle.

My money is on Juliet defecting to the 'good' side before this season is over. Perhaps even earlier.

I find it very hard to imagine the imprisoned Lostee's making for their own escape without the help of some-one on the other's side.


Maybe Carl??? He mightve been an "bad" Other and was somewhat of a rebel.

Am i the only one who is curious why she has a "muffin-burned-to-coal-timer" because, her timer rings and the muffins are gone... O_o

That wasnt a timer. it was a smoke detector.

Sorry, didnt notice if someone else had corrected this.

My theory is that the leader of the Others recently died. Juliet and Ben are bro and sis, and the leader was their father. Their father chose Ben to run the group instead of Juliet, and she's bitter about that. She doesn't agree with the way Ben runs things, and think he is too controling.

Maybe Carl??? He mightve been an "bad" Other and was somewhat of a rebel.

I might be wrong here, but I belive that, in an other thread, some fans have established Carl as a bona fide Other and that the entire escape was but a carefully designed charade. Others-style.

My theory is that the leader of the Others recently died. Juliet and Ben are bro and sis, and the leader was their father. Their father chose Ben to run the group instead of Juliet, and she's bitter about that. She doesn't agree with the way Ben runs things, and think he is too controling.

There is a definite history between them. If they are not related, they may have been husband-wife (or whatever substitutes for a civil union in their wacko culture). Juliet was intentionally vague when Jack asked her about Dharma, saying "that was a long time ago." That leads me to believe they are probably descendents of the original Dharma scientists, or maybe of the test subjects. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that some of them are the grown children of the DeGroots, or maybe even of old man Hanso himself.

I might be wrong here, but I belive that, in an other thread, some fans have established Carl as a bona fide Other and that the entire escape was but a carefully designed charade. Others-style.

Yeah, that whole lock-picking escape was way too easy. Carl seemed like a plant from the first moment we saw him. I didn't believe for a second that he was a real captive.

Interesting discussions, but back on topic:) :

Some really good theorizing about Juliet in the mirror has been going on in other threads, such as the ones about the CD. Sorry, but I don't have time right now to give proper credit.

My favorite version right now is that Juliet intended to play the Talking Heads CD "Speaking in Tongues", which was the case she opened. The first cut on that CD is "Burning Down the House", and that was what she was expecting to hear. But alas, Benry had placed the CD with Petula Clark's "Downtown" in there.

So Juliet was reacting to the realization that Benry was still attempting to exert his control.

It's also possible (in the story, and it's on the to-do list for the Whispers Gurus) that the CD has subliminal messages on it, and thus Juliet was being manipulated/conditioned by listening to it. So perhaps what we saw of her in the mirror was the real Juliet transforming into the Stepford-Juliet, so to speak.

Here's what I posted about it on the Tiberius thread:


I don't think she expected to hear Petula! I think this was a message from Ben. And quite a spiteful one, because the lyrics of "Downtown" as innocent as they are, are actually quite hurtful to a person who can't get away from the "problems" that "surround you". Look at her face. She has conceded, Ben won again. Free will does not exist on this island. It's an interesting idea that I thought y'all might like. I, personally, like that idea.


Me too. Especially when the first cut on the Talking Heads CD is "Burning Down the House", which would be what she expected to hear, if she didn't select a particular cut.

And finally, she burned the muffins, which might be another clue to her thoughts about "Benry rebellion", or just a clue to us that she meant to play the TH CD (and not that she had hidden "Downtown" in the TH case). Remember, at the book club meeting, she said "Carrie" is her favorite book...

This couple of scenes could also further support the theories that cover "bringing thoughts/dreams to life", and "mind/thought blending" amongst those on The Island.

Jeesh, I just realized that this could be related to Kate (allegedly) burning down Wayne's house.:eek2:

And if we need any more food for thought, there's speculation about Kate and Juliette being twins/sisters...


Sorry to quote myself, but I really would like us to get back to analyzing and speculating about Juliet in the mirror.:redface:

Interesting discussions, but back on topic:) :

Some really good theorizing about Juliet in the mirror has been going on in other threads, such as the ones about the CD. Sorry, but I don't have time right now to give proper credit.

My favorite version right now is that Juliet intended to play the Talking Heads CD "Speaking in Tongues", which was the case she opened. The first cut on that CD is "Burning Down the House", and that was what she was expecting to hear. But alas, Benry had placed the CD with Petula Clark's "Downtown" in there.

So Juliet was reacting to the realization that Benry was still attempting to exert his control.

It's also possible (in the story, and it's on the to-do list for the Whispers Gurus) that the CD has subliminal messages on it, and thus Juliet was being manipulated/conditioned by listening to it. So perhaps what we saw of her in the mirror was the real Juliet transforming into the Stepford-Juliet, so to speak.

Here's what I posted about it on the Tiberius thread:



Sorry to quote myself, but I really would like us to get back to analyzing and speculating about Juliet in the mirror.:redface:

Tabby, I've been thinking the exact same thing. Did you see my post at the top of page 4? Pretty much what you've said above, but also adding the Carrie reference as support (Carrie basically burned down her whole town when her rage became out of control). I think you're exactly right about the transformation in the mirror - pulling herself together into what she's expected to be.

Tabby, I've been thinking the exact same thing. Did you see my post at the top of page 4? Pretty much what you've said above, but also adding the Carrie reference as support (Carrie basically burned down her whole town when her rage became out of control). I think you're exactly right about the transformation in the mirror - pulling herself together into what she's expected to be.
Ohmygosh, lucky4me8! YES, I did read it, but at the time, I did not agree that Juliet was angry. I kept thinking that she was hurt/sad/upset, and trying to compose herself.

I typically read and read and read and read, and often never get back to acknowledge important posts. Your post was one of many that melded into what I now think was going on with Juliet.

And you're oh so right, she was (maybe still is) angry! She has a lot of potential to be one of Todell's Rebellious Rabbits!

I'm dying to know what happened in the days 1-~67 (from the mirror scene to the dolphin room with Jack).

I think she was upset from being isolated and under Ben's dictatorship. Maybe because her life makes no sense anymore. She was trying to pull it together. The CD was the last straw of irony. Anyway, the timer. Maybe, just maybe she set up the timer wrong. I don't think that was significant. I think her emotional turmoil does.

I'm dying to know what happened in the days 1-~67 (from the mirror scene to the dolphin room with Jack).

Me too! Especially if Ethan and Goodwin are killed along the way. At the very least, she was friends with Ethan.
And LOL, sorry, I didn't mean to be pushy - I just wanted to pipe in and say that I agreed with you.:smile:

Me too! Especially if Ethan and Goodwin are killed along the way. At the very least, she was friends with Ethan.
And LOL, sorry, I didn't mean to be pushy - I just wanted to pipe in and say that I agreed with you.:smile:
Gosh, no! I didn't think you were being pushy at all. I felt bad not to have replied to your and others' posts, so I appreciate your reminder! And yeah, wonder what her relationship was with them, and how/when she found out (if she did), that they died?

Actually though:redface: , I need to make sure that Buck Dharma and others come back, because I didn't intend to run anyone off/out of this thread. :) A lot of recent discussion did speculate about Benry and Juliet, and that might actually explain Juliet's demeanor in the mirror. I just didn't want to get sidetracked too much.

two thoughts--
she was expecting to hear the talking heads. watch it again. as far as burning down the house goes, maybe juliet is filled with rage just like 'carrie'. maybe juliet caused the earthquake when she was getting so angry and that's how they all know to get in the doorway. yes, it's easy to think that desmond crashed the plane because of the button. but...after the earthquake, they all come running out of the house and look up. why look up?? they knew something was about to happen.
my second thought is about time. maybe time doesn't move accurately on the island. remember the scene (forgive me for not knowing which) but there is a scene with charlie with his watch not moving in sync with the scene. same with jack. i think the producers and staff are too anal to let a flub like not setting a watch in a scene.
i have thought the use of watches was very interesting from the beginning. they are on an island yet so many of them have watches... plus, jin was going to take a watch to an associate of sun's father. the watches have something to do with all of this.

I'm dying to know what happened in the days 1-~67 (from the mirror scene to the dolphin room with Jack).

Nice!!! Maybe we'll get an 'the Other other 67 days' episode in much the same manner as 'the other 48 days' episode they did for the tailies.

Jumping in kind of late on this thread...

Perhaps Goodwin & Ethan are traveling by tunnel and not through the jungle. A smooth straight path would be considerably faster.

I think the plane was meant to land on the island, but not crash. They were chosen, and expected. They are now being captured or culled. The Others are breaking down the wills and brainwashing the three prisoners to prepare them for whatever purpose is planned for them.

I get the feeling that Juliet really doesn't like her job holding Jack prisoner. She seems to care about him. And I also wonder if she was once in his position - captured and brainwashed. Or maybe just a member of the team with different ideas on how to conduct experiments.

Perhaps in the opening scene when she was so upset, she knew that Flight 815 was arriving shortly and the next group of subjects would have to be broken down and trained. It might have been a point of contention between her and Ben - with him insisting that the prisoners be treated like animals, while she fought for free will.

That Benry...he is one cold and soulless dude.

If someone is convinced they are saving the world there is not much anyone can do to shake them out of that mindset. Its usually 'religious' or 'political' people who get that way (and heaven help us if its a mixture of both). Whether its Henry's idea or if he is someone's faithful disciple we don't know. We just know that whatever it is..Henry really really believes it.

Actually though:redface: , I need to make sure that Buck Dharma and others come back, because I didn't intend to run anyone off/out of this thread. :) A lot of recent discussion did speculate about Benry and Juliet, and that might actually explain Juliet's demeanor in the mirror. I just didn't want to get sidetracked too much.

No worries, Tabby. The thought had occurred to me that we had gotten a bit off topic on this thread. Some interesting discussions, nonetheless.

Another thought: even though the CD case was clearly labelled "Speaking In Tongues," wouldn't Juliet have noticed it wasn't the same CD when she put it in her CD player? I think she fully intended to play "Downtown" to take her to her happy place, before she had to put on her game face for the book club. Maybe she intentionally hid her favorite CD in the Talking Heads case to keep it away from Ben. She was psyching herself up for a possible confrontation with him over her choice of books. But then, what happened to the Talking Heads CD? Is it considered acceptable to Ben, while Petula Clark is not? But there's no denying the huge significance of "Burning Down The House" with respect to her choice of "Carrie." Also, if my memory's not too hazy, I think the first lyric in that song is: "Watch out, you might get what you're after."

Am i the only one who is curious why she has a "muffin-burned-to-coal-timer" because, her timer rings and the muffins are gone... O_o
I thought it was more of a smoke detector ringing rather than a timer since there was smoke coming out of the oven

I thought it was more of a smoke detector ringing rather than a timer since there was smoke coming out of the oven

Me too. I don't think she set a timer, and she forgot about the muffins while trying to compose herself, until the smoke alarm went off because she burned them.

My impression of that opening scene with Juliet is that the CD was her choice, perhaps she hides it in the case because it's her secret song from the old days, the past - maybe Ben doesn't like such things.

She's trying desperately to maintain a sense of normalcy by baking muffins, heading up book clubs. But there's an elephant in the room that can't be avoided or stepped around. So she bakes muffins but burns them, holds book clubs and sets up confrontations with the guests.. She's a non-conformist being forced to conform and it/she is backfiring and firing back.

My impression of that opening scene with Juliet is that the CD was her choice, perhaps she hides it in the case because it's her secret song from the old days, the past - maybe Ben doesn't like such things.

She's trying desperately to maintain a sense of normalcy by baking muffins, heading up book clubs. But there's an elephant in the room that can't be avoided or stepped around. So she bakes muffins but burns them, holds book clubs and sets up confrontations with the guests.. She's a non-conformist being forced to conform and it/she is backfiring and firing back.


I agree with those who believe Juliet chose "Downtown" ....it looked like she used the song to compose herself (get to that happy face)......I think Juliet may be about to "implode" or "explode".....it could be scary to watch :biggrin: (Carrie sure was)

I agree with those who believe Juliet chose "Downtown" ....it looked like she used the song to compose herself (get to that happy face)......I think Juliet may be about to "implode" or "explode".....it could be scary to watch :biggrin: (Carrie sure was) Yup, Ben better watch it or Juliet will open up a can of whoop a** pig's blood on him.:eek2: The song does seem to be Juliet's natural form of Prozac doesn't it? And my bet would be on Juliet exploding, as she's held enough in already it seems.. :biggrin:

I've been thinking about this too. But my impression was that possibly Juliet and Ben were a couple and they just broke up?? That would fit with his comment about not being in the book club anymore. But she was certainly rattled at the beginning there and I'm not sure why she would be acting that way over a breakup unless there were more serious repercussions than usual.
And I was DYING for her to be able to finish the "free will" comment. That was SO frustrating!!
I guess we'll have to wait for more tidbits on this. :undecide:


Yes, I think they were romantically involved too. This was my feeling with Ben's "I guess I"m not in the book club anymore" comment. I'm sure anything contrary to Ben's will brings about repercussions. He seems like a little "Napoleon." Or maybe it's like Bono said: "He's too small to be a despot, but watch him closely." LOL.