Gah!!! OK, there are a million ways Ben could have convinced Jack that they could send him home - a news broadcast from November, the Macy's Thanksgiving Day parade, a copy of the smegging New York Times!! Must he not only make reference to the Red Sox w... wi... - I can't say it - but show the darned video? OK, I'm convinced...truly the Others are devil-spawn.

This was the very last place I expected to be subjected to that eyeball-searing footage. Lost writers -- not nice! You've had your dig, now don't do it again, or I shall lead a Yankee fan revolution that will singe your quill pens! :nono:

recall jack and his father and what they said

Gah!!! OK, there are a million ways Ben could have convinced Jack that they could send him home - a news broadcast from November, the Macy's Thanksgiving Day parade, a copy of the smegging New York Times!! Must he not only make reference to the Red Sox w... wi... - I can't say it - but show the darned video? OK, I'm convinced...truly the Others are devil-spawn.

This was the very last place I expected to be subjected to that eyeball-searing footage. Lost writers -- not nice! You've had your dig, now don't do it again, or I shall lead a Yankee fan revolution that will singe your quill pens! :nono:

Bitter?

I understand the reference to Jack's father by showing the RedSox but I never need to see that again! I'll join you in your Yankee revolution, RamessesIX.

Other than the obvious fun connection to Jack's Dad, this really was one of the biggest events in America in 2004, and literally an event you'd have to see to believe. The only event that could possibly top it would be to have the Cubs win the world series... like that will ever happen. The whole nation knew about the curse being broken (even if you were a guy like me who hates the Red Sox and Yankees and would rather see an NL aka REAL baseball team win).

It was a great choice of event, and I got goosebumps watching it and seeing Jack's reaction to it. Awesome.

Hehe... Well, think about it. THAT made the most sense to show Jack. The Others obviously knew that Christian and Jack were Red Sox fans, and that piece of footage would be extremely difficult to recreate, so Jack HAD to know that Benry wasn't lying.

Well maybe the Yankees shouldn't have choked the way they did. GO SOX!

GO ASTROS. Woops wrong message board and wrong year (that was last year). I feel you pain.

Other than the obvious fun connection to Jack's Dad, this really was one of the biggest events in America in 2004, and literally an event you'd have to see to believe. The only event that could possibly top it would be to have the Cubs win the world series... like that will ever happen. The whole nation knew about the curse being broken


Good point. How often does a team that is down 0-3 in a best of four series come back to win that series and then sweep the World Series? It was big doings.

And also some of the best nights of my life. :smile: Go Sox!

Absolutely brilliant.

The Red Sox thing was a deal with Jack and his father. It brought a little tear to my eye.

It's it obvious why they put that there....it was a shout out to all of the baseball fans who are madly watching every minute of October ball.....and I must say, I'm happy to have moved back home to the Detroit area ;) I was away from the Tigers for too long.


I loved Jack's reaction...I knew he was going to say that too....I would have believed everything you said....if you had picked a different team! Classic!!!

Other than the obvious fun connection to Jack's Dad, this really was one of the biggest events in America in 2004...

It was a great choice of event, and I got goosebumps watching it and seeing Jack's reaction to it. Awesome.

I agree with the above! I just knew Jack would break down right then and there. At the same time, I was wondering if somehow they knew this would be something that would break him.

The Others obviously knew that Christian and Jack were Red Sox fans,
No. Benry doubtless figured that Jack, like a large percentage of males, was a sports fan. The World Series is a big sports event, that happened after the plane crash. Being able to cite who won it and how would be a good reference point for proving that The Others had contact with the outside world.

Remember, too, Benry was rather startled by Jack's hysterical laughing reaction to his news. But he had the clip of the game to show him to prove it. But he was definitely puzzled by Jack's laughing.

Having a file full of facts about Jack doesn't mean he knew every little detail about Jack's life. Christian doubtless used that "Red Sox" line on Jack all his life. Probably said it to colleagues, too. But Benry hadn't been looking for familiar Christian phrases--he was collecting data relating to JACK. The basic facts about daddy--respected surgeon, alcoholic, turned in by his son--Benry knew. But a fave catchphrase? C'mon!

Without a doubt, the worst moment of the show. When you watched the frist episode, did you really think that they would be watching tv two months later. What are the writers doing?

My condolences to all the bitter Yankee fans out there, especially in light of yesterday's tragic events. But Ben really did pick the perfect piece of tape to show Jack. It's obvious that he's trying to break Jack down mentally and emotionally. What better way than to show him something so emotionally resonant to him that he'd never believe it otherwise?

Its the Others way of continuing to re-inforce the theme of the need to be patient. Juliet & Ben keep hammering home the need for patience on Jack's part. He specifically chose that event not only to show Jack that they may have contact with the world, but as a reinforcement of "things come to those who wait" What better way to re-inforce that to a Red Sox fan (who BTW will not see a championship for another 86 years, or at least as long as Derek Jeter is a Yankee)

What was the actual quote that jack's dad used... I havn't had time to revisit season 1

Heaven forbid the Yankees not win for the millionth time. :rolleyes:

(I hate professional sports, by the way. I'm sure I wouldn't even know who won if I didn't live in Massachusetts...)

No, not really. The Red Sox were a big deal to Jack & his father. & who would believe any team would be down 3 games & then win 4 straight, let alone the red sox. yes it was a big deal & this coming from a Yankee fan.

Yes, it's about the Red Sox comment that was made at least twice last season. I love that it was referring to a curse . . . . now the curse has been reversed for the Red Sox - let's hope for the same for Jack and the rest!

Being a huge baseball fan and a big yankee hater, the Red Sox run to the championship was not just a wonderful thing to behold but a bonafide miracle. Even setting aside the stuff it brings up between Jack and his father, it was the ultimate reminder of the kind of wonderful, miraculous moments Jack is missing in the "real world"... as opposed to the kind of moments he has to deal with on the Island: deadly polar bears, monsters and Others. It was basically showing him a glimpse of Heaven, while trapped in Hell.

I know I would break if I were in Jack's position now. :-)

I think the Red Sox reference is deeper than we think. Perhaps the 2004 Yankees represent The Others -- full of talent, but held together by weak ties and can only dominate by subjigating others. Perhaps the greatest and most embarassing collapse in sports history (only to be matched by their performance this season) ties into a storyline of collapse within the ranks of The Others where all of the hyper-smart individuals forget that their perfect society was built on collaboration, not star-power.

Or perhaps I'm just a huge Red Sox fan :biggrin:

Gah!!! OK, there are a million ways Ben could have convinced Jack that they could send him home - a news broadcast from November, the Macy's Thanksgiving Day parade, a copy of the smegging New York Times!! Must he not only make reference to the Red Sox w... wi... - I can't say it - but show the darned video? OK, I'm convinced...truly the Others are devil-spawn.

This was the very last place I expected to be subjected to that eyeball-searing footage. Lost writers -- not nice! You've had your dig, now don't do it again, or I shall lead a Yankee fan revolution that will singe your quill pens! :nono:

:laugh: Ah yes, a little salt in the wound for Yankee fans, I know. We need another curse. ;)

The thing which impressed me most about that scene, however, where the two actors' reactions to it. Jack disbelief in Ben's assertion, and Ben's face afterward - frustration that, well yeah, sure he lied all the other times, but this time he really is telling the truth, gosh darn it. One of the best acting moments in the show, in my opinion.

Definately a writer's error....it never happened.....it never happened......it never happend......

Other than the obvious fun connection to Jack's Dad, this really was one of the biggest events in America in 2004, and literally an event you'd have to see to believe. The only event that could possibly top it would be to have the Cubs win the world series... like that will ever happen. The whole nation knew about the curse being broken (even if you were a guy like me who hates the Red Sox and Yankees and would rather see an NL aka REAL baseball team win).

It was a great choice of event, and I got goosebumps watching it and seeing Jack's reaction to it. Awesome.

oooh, ditto. This scene had so many feelings to it.... i loved it. ESPECIALLY because it was another reminder that the Sox did win the series. WOOT!!

Hehe... Well, think about it. THAT made the most sense to show Jack. The Others obviously knew that Christian and Jack were Red Sox fans, and that piece of footage would be extremely difficult to recreate, so Jack HAD to know that Benry wasn't lying.

I cannot believe I was so dense to not catch that!! The relation to Christian's saying and the ending...sheesh, I'm losing it! Thanks for enlightening my slow-witted brain, guys!

What was the actual quote that jack's dad used... I havn't had time to revisit season 1I believe it's "that's why the Red Sox will never win the series" or something to that effect.

If I was Ben, and trying to convince a guy that I could contact the mainland any time I wanted, I would have showed a video that mentioned the bloody date it was recorded.

If I was Ben, and trying to convince a guy that I could contact the mainland any time I wanted, I would have showed a video that mentioned the bloody date it was recorded.

If Jack's been on the island for only 2 months and he sees video of Keith Foulke and Jason Varitek hugging after winning the World Series, he doesn't need a date stamp to narrow the date down to late October 2004.

No. Benry doubtless figured that Jack, like a large percentage of males, was a sports fan. The World Series is a big sports event, that happened after the plane crash. Being able to cite who won it and how would be a good reference point for proving that The Others had contact with the outside world.

Remember, too, Benry was rather startled by Jack's hysterical laughing reaction to his news. But he had the clip of the game to show him to prove it. But he was definitely puzzled by Jack's laughing.

Having a file full of facts about Jack doesn't mean he knew every little detail about Jack's life. Christian doubtless used that "Red Sox" line on Jack all his life. Probably said it to colleagues, too. But Benry hadn't been looking for familiar Christian phrases--he was collecting data relating to JACK. The basic facts about daddy--respected surgeon, alcoholic, turned in by his son--Benry knew. But a fave catchphrase? C'mon!

Oh. :redface: You're probably right. Ben did seem confused with Jack's reaction. But I wouldn't put it past the Others to actually have that information about Jack, no matter how insignificant. It seems like they know most everything about him. And Ben did show Jack THAT specific tape... He could have shown him proof of George W. being re-elected, or something about Christopher Reeve's death, but he chose footage of the World Series (although, like I said before, that could have been the most convincing choice because it's be so difficult to recreate.)

rather see an NL aka REAL baseball team win).



I was completely behind you until I got to this statement. LOL! The NL looks like T-ball compared to the AL. Just look at who the Cardinals are starting for Game 1 of the NLCS...Jeff Weaver.

Not to mention the NL was dominated by the AL in interleague play this season, and it hasn't won an All-Star Game since the 90s.

very good insight. that could also mean something to the fans;)

Its the Others way of continuing to re-inforce the theme of the need to be patient. Juliet & Ben keep hammering home the need for patience on Jack's part. He specifically chose that event not only to show Jack that they may have contact with the world, but as a reinforcement of "things come to those who wait" What better way to re-inforce that to a Red Sox fan (who BTW will not see a championship for another 86 years, or at least as long as Derek Jeter is a Yankee)

Gah!!! OK, there are a million ways Ben could have convinced Jack that they could send him home - a news broadcast from November, the Macy's Thanksgiving Day parade, a copy of the smegging New York Times!! Must he not only make reference to the Red Sox w... wi... - I can't say it - but show the darned video? OK, I'm convinced...truly the Others are devil-spawn.

This was the very last place I expected to be subjected to that eyeball-searing footage. Lost writers -- not nice! You've had your dig, now don't do it again, or I shall lead a Yankee fan revolution that will singe your quill pens! :nono: That was something Jacks dad always said "thats why the red sock will never win the world series" Jack said that around Sawyer and Jacks dad said it to Sawyer also and thats how Sawyer knew he had met Jacks dad in Austrailia.

At first I didn't really like the use of the real TV clip. It sorta took me out of the show. But the more I think about it---and if we're looking for a deeper meaning in Ben showing this particular clip---I think the Red Sox clip was supposed to take you out of the show. It's a real event and it reminds us, and the Losties, that there's a real world out there where people are still sitting on their couches and watching sports. It's completely disconnected from the island. It was actually sort of unsettling to see Jack's reaction. Very well done, writers!!

just a quick suggestion. the team were 3 down and came back to win is it just coincidence that with kate jack and sawyer being held captive that the losties are 3 down. apologies if someone has already mentioned this

Ben, knows that Jack and his dad used to say that. I think Ben knows that Jack and his father, had a falling out, and that would be the best way to affect him.

Man, last night I started a Red Sox excitement thread and my post was moved to another thread. A Yankee fan gets to start anti-Sox thread? Boo... :(

(Slightly bitter but not actually upset, fyi.)

This scene was by far one of my favorite scenes of the entire series so far.

Definately a writer's error....it never happened.....it never happened......it never happend......

hahahaha

i go to college in mass, and all my friends that were watching who dont' watch obsessively like i do were instantly like "wow, this is my new favorite show of all time" and "see, i knew you liked this show for a reason", blah blah. soo funny b/c they're all avid Red Sox fans


i dont' really care about baseball... i'm from Buffalo where we don't have a pro team... and did you all know that today, October 12th, it snowed in Buffalo? my sister called me and was like "um... is it december and i just blacked out for 2 months?" hahahahaha

perhaps benry picked the bo sox clip because it was the most visually stimulating clip he could have shown. anyone notice the phraising on "your people re=elected GB" as if to say it was as improbable as boston winning the WS

Well, even though Ben personally selected the video segment to prove to Jack that the real world does exist and that he has er...connections...

Ben just didn't get the significance (and improbability) of the Red Sox winning. :eek: This just goes to show that Ben and the Others have led a very insular existence in spite of their seeming accessibility to SOME technology and information. I think someone is FEEDING the Others information. Maybe it is requested by the Others, maybe not.

Poor Ben - the Player has ben (pun intended) played.

I'm still laughing when I think of the reaction I saw when I looked at my two friends during the scene. It was just so blatant and odd that just by being shown something on the tv, it changed everything we thought the show/island/others,etc.... were ABOUT! Wow is all I can say!

don't do it again, or I shall lead a Yankee fan revolution that will singe your quill pens!
You're sooo making fun of yourselves, Yank-mee fans! :rolleyes:
Oh, and btw: www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showpost.php?p=1212261&postcount=45 (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showpost.php?p=1212261&postcount=45) :smile:

:rolleyes: jeez, get a real sport...

Okay, I'm English so I know as much about baseball as Americans probably know about Cricket, but I've had a really cool thought. I gather from reading the thread that their winning of the Series was pretty miraculous, well, think about this . . .

When Desmond confronted Jack in the stadium and asked "But what if you DID fix her?" a lot of people wondered if whoever or whatever is behind everything that is going on somehow "arranged" for the operation to have been a success - even though the Doctor hadn't been able to fix her, a miracle cure was given to her.
This idea is best presented and explained on the Fate (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=56757&highlight=Fate) thread.

What if, just like with the Lost Experience where TPTB try to intertwine the show with the real world, the writers are going to later say that the "miracle" of the Red Sox was also a part of the Lost conspiracy and as with Sarah's miracle cure this was another miracle to try and make Jack have faith. It was, after all, the supreme representation of Jack's pessimism, that the Red Sox would never win the Series. What better way to make him a man of faith?

Okay, I'm English so I know as much about baseball as Americans probably know about Cricket, but I've had a really cool thought. I gather from reading the thread that their winning of the Series was pretty miraculous, well, think about this . . .

When Desmond confronted Jack in the stadium and asked "But what if you DID fix her?" a lot of people wondered if whoever or whatever is behind everything that is going on somehow "arranged" for the operation to have been a success - even though the Doctor hadn't been able to fix her, a miracle cure was given to her.
This idea is best presented and explained on the Fate (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=56757&highlight=Fate) thread.

What if, just like with the Lost Experience where TPTB try to intertwine the show with the real world, the writers are going to later say that the "miracle" of the Red Sox was also a part of the Lost conspiracy and as with Sarah's miracle cure this was another miracle to try and make Jack have faith. It was, after all, the supreme representation of Jack's pessimism, that the Red Sox would never win the Series. What better way to make him a man of faith?

i actually hadf no idea if the Red Sox had won the series or not, or if the footage was manipulated. i thought it was a great ending, but i guess i was missing that extra punch from not having full knowledge.

itb be hillarious if TPTB did try and say that the Red Sox winning was down to Lost:biggrin: i think thered be some very annoyed baseball players...

I'd have to say GO SOX... just because I feel the pain of the fans... I'm a Mariners fan :redface: and we tend to throw Monopoly money everytime A-Rod comes up to bat!! The Yankees aren't too 'liked' around here :winkiss:

I have been lurking on LOST sites for a year or so. Nothing has been able to move me to post, until this. I haven't found it mentioned anywhere! Given the numerous Stephen King influences/themes and the fact that he's such a huge Boston fan (he has a book chronicling the 2004 season) - is this maybe another nod to King? I don't know enough about the creators - maybe they're huge Red Sox fans? I agree with the tie in to his father, but someone intentionally put that in there to lead to this moment. Given the tounge in cheek exchange between Jack and Ben about the feasibility of the Sox winning - this was sooo deliberate.

GO TIGERS!!!!!!!

itb be hillarious if TPTB did try and say that the Red Sox winning was down to Lost:biggrin:
I hope that's not what they intend to do because it'd take away from the actual achievement. In addition to that Stephen King'd probably curse them if they did! :biggrin:

The Yankees aren't too 'liked' around here :winkiss:
Where are they liked at all? ;) Even Yank-mee-fans only are loyal if Steinbrenner's boys are winning! :drowsy:

I have been lurking on LOST sites for a year or so. Nothing has been able to move me to post, until this.
That's awesome! Welcome justrouble!!! :smile:

I don't know enough about the creators - maybe they're huge Red Sox fans?
Good question. I only know Daniel Dae Kim is! :thumbsup:

This was one of the most brilliant and well written/acted/directed scenes in the episode.

Ben, having grown up on the island, has no idea what it is to be a 'long suffering' Red Sox fan' or Cubs fan, etc. So he is legitimately confused by Jack's laughter. Jack of course, is obviously very familiar with the history of the team, if not a geniune member of Red Sox nation himself. So when Ben tells him that they won the World Series, Jack (rightfully so) comes to the conclusion that he is lying.

The irony is subtle enough as to be thoughly enjoyable to baseball fans, but not detract from the enjoyment of casual viewers.

Brilliant.

recall jack and his father and what they said
Oh, I remember. And I grudgingly admit it was a nice tie back to Season 1. But I still think the writers have it in for Yankee fans. First Ben mentions the Unspeakable Event. Bad enough. Then Jack doesn't believe him, and he has to dredge up all the sordid details. Finally, he wheels out a TV and plays the footage!!! Talk about pouring salt in the wound, twisting the thumbscrews, kicking a man when he's down...

Bitter?
You better believe it.

Being a huge baseball fan and a big yankee hater, the Red Sox run to the championship was not just a wonderful thing to behold but a bonafide miracle.
Quickly OT - but that was not a miracle. Even I have to acknowledge that the Sox had a better team. The Yankees, not the Sox, were the underdogs going into that series. Coming back from 0-3 down is improbable, but the Yankees had basically run out of healthy pitchers at that point. Once they lost the 4th game, I knew they were toast and said so at the time. Got called a "bad fan" by a few people who had to apologize and bow to my perspicacity later.

Less OT - If Jack followed the Sox up until September 2004, it should have been perfectly plausible to him that they would have won the Series, because the Sox had a very good team that year and ran off an 18-2 run in August. (He didn't know they had been down 0-3 in the ALCS until Ben told him.) On 9/22, they were probably the odds-on favorites. But maybe Jack is only a lukewarm baseball fan and just expected them to lose because they always did.


Even setting aside the stuff it brings up between Jack and his father, it was the ultimate reminder of the kind of wonderful, miraculous moments Jack is missing in the "real world"... as opposed to the kind of moments he has to deal with on the Island: deadly polar bears, monsters and Others. It was basically showing him a glimpse of Heaven, while trapped in Hell.

Excellent way of putting it. It truly was a powerful scene...if only they hadn't stepped on my soul in the making of it.

:laugh: Ah yes, a little salt in the wound for Yankee fans, I know. We need another curse. ;)
Tell you what, 84 years from now, they can win it again. I'll be long dead and my grandchildren can deal with it. :)

The thing which impressed me most about that scene, however, where the two actors' reactions to it. Jack disbelief in Ben's assertion, and Ben's face afterward - frustration that, well yeah, sure he lied all the other times, but this time he really is telling the truth, gosh darn it. One of the best acting moments in the show, in my opinion.
He looked so offended that Jack didn't believe him! Gosh, can't imagine why. Kind of like a little kid. Yeah, that was a funny reaction.

I was completely behind you until I got to this statement. LOL! The NL looks like T-ball compared to the AL. Just look at who the Cardinals are starting for Game 1 of the NLCS...Jeff Weaver.
And doggoneit if he didn't pitch a heck of a game last night, albeit in a losing cause. If he's pitched like that for the Yankees, maybe the Sox wouldn't have won anything and the Lost writers would have had to think a little harder.

At first I didn't really like the use of the real TV clip. It sorta took me out of the show. But the more I think about it---and if we're looking for a deeper meaning in Ben showing this particular clip---I think the Red Sox clip was supposed to take you out of the show. It's a real event and it reminds us, and the Losties, that there's a real world out there where people are still sitting on their couches and watching sports. It's completely disconnected from the island. It was actually sort of unsettling to see Jack's reaction. Very well done, writers!!
Yes, if you put yourself in Jack's position, you can imagine what it must feel like after the trauma and isolation of the past two months to see 50,000 fans at Busch Stadium.

Where are they liked at all? ;) Even Yank-mee-fans only are loyal if Steinbrenner's boys are winning! :drowsy:

False. We all lived through the '80s and '90s when it looked like they would never win again. Yankee fans are the most loyal sports fans anywhere, in my experience.

My Yankee fan friend flipped out at that scene too while I sat back and loved every second.

The instant he brought the TV in I had a feeling it was gonna be the Red Sox because that was one of those things you needed to see to believe.

Gah!!! OK, there are a million ways Ben could have convinced Jack that they could send him home - a news broadcast from November, the Macy's Thanksgiving Day parade, a copy of the smegging New York Times!! Must he not only make reference to the Red Sox w... wi... - I can't say it - but show the darned video? OK, I'm convinced...truly the Others are devil-spawn.

This was the very last place I expected to be subjected to that eyeball-searing footage. Lost writers -- not nice! You've had your dig, now don't do it again, or I shall lead a Yankee fan revolution that will singe your quill pens! :nono:


Even though the RedSox had a difficult season this year I will still stand by them as a true fan and Bostonian: RED SOX RULE!!!!!! and you know how we feel about the Yankee's. :drowsy:

I absolutely loved the scene considering it mentioned the Red Sox eliminating both of my most hated baseball teams, the Yankees and the Cardinals.

I haven't seen this tidbit posted here, but I remember reading in an E.W. article last year that some of the writers are indeed big Yankee fans. The article claimed that the numbers were in fact chosen b/c they are the jersey numbers of retired Yankee players. I posted a question to TPTB on the VIP forum to confirm this, but never got any reply. Can anyone else here confirm or deny this? If true, it's more than a little ironic that the writers would have to choose a Red Sox clip for Ben to use to test Jack's faith.

Even though the RedSox had a difficult season this year I will still stand by them as a true fan and Bostonian: RED SOX RULE!!!!!! and you know how we feel about the Yankee's. :drowsy:
Indeed I do, I live here. I have to say I've never seen anything quite like it. My favorite example was driving into the city on the Mass Pike a few years ago and seeing a billboard that said, "Honk if you're a Yankee fan. (OK, everybody, there they are.)" But the Sox finished third in the division this year, so...nyah!

I haven't seen this tidbit posted here, but I remember reading in an E.W. article last year that some of the writers are indeed big Yankee fans. The article claimed that the numbers were in fact chosen b/c they are the jersey numbers of retired Yankee players. I posted a question to TPTB on the VIP forum to confirm this, but never got any reply. Can anyone else here confirm or deny this? If true, it's more than a little ironic that the writers would have to choose a Red Sox clip for Ben to use to test Jack's faith.
Well, it is true that the Numbers are all retired Yankee numbers.

4 - Lou Gehrig
8 - Yogi Berra and Bill Dickey
15 - Thurman Munson
16 - Whitey Ford
23 - Don Mattingly
42 - Jackie Robinson (MLB-wide) and someday Mariano Rivera

I don't have any inside information about whether the writers did this intentionally. Of course, the Yankees have had so many stellar players throughout their history that you might think you could almost pick 6 retired numbers out of a hat by accident. Let's apply a little probability theory just for fun.

Let's say the writers were choosing 6 numbers between 1 and 50 as Hurley's cursed numbers. Within that span, there are (by my quick count) 12 retired Yankee numbers. The probability of randomly choosing one number that matches a retired Yankee number is 12/50. Since we can't pick the same one twice, the probability of choosing the second Yankee number is 11/49, and so on. For for six numbers, we have (12/50)(11/49)(10/48)(9/47)(8/46)(7/45) = 0.000058, or about 6-thousandths of 1 percent likelihood of getting 6 retired Yankee numbers by chance. Now I'm sure they didn't pick the numbers completely randomly, and the Yankee numbers are skewed to the lower half of the range, but still...looks like we might have some Yankee fans in the writers' room!

Carlton Cuse is a huge Red Sox fan.
Damon Lindelof is a big Yankees fan.

It is true that Stephen King is a huge Red Sox fan and devoted member of Red Sox Nation, and it is also true that TPTB love Stephen King.
Boston Globe article (http://www.boston.com/news/globe/living/articles/2006/10/13/giving_themselves_an_out/)

Carlton Cuse is a huge Red Sox fan.
Damon Lindelof is a big Yankees fan.
The fact that these two men can work together so successfully and actually be friends with each other is the most impressive argument for overcoming one's differences in favor of a greater good IMO.
It also shows that they probably are greater men than I'll ever be ... I know there are Red Sox / Yankees-couples but this wouldn't work for me. :rolleyes:

Well, it is true that the Numbers are all retired Yankee numbers.

4 - Lou Gehrig
8 - Yogi Berra and Bill Dickey
15 - Thurman Munson
16 - Whitey Ford
23 - Don Mattingly
42 - Jackie Robinson (MLB-wide) and someday Mariano Rivera


And Thurman Munson died in a plane crash!

The article claimed that the numbers were in fact chosen b/c they are the jersey numbers of retired Yankee players.
As long as there's no official statement on the matter "claimed" is the most important word in this context IMO

42 - Jackie Robinson (MLB-wide) and someday Mariano Rivera
Not even the Yankees can retire the same number twice. I mean, that was the deal with MLB retiring 42 in honor of Jackie Robinson, wasn't it? They only let those guys already wearing that number (Mo Vaughn, anybody? ) keep it as far as I know.

Let's apply a little probability theory just for fun. ... about 6-thousandths of 1 percent likelihood of getting 6 retired Yankee numbers by chance.
Very well done!
On the other hand, I do believe that statistics mean nothing at all if applied to one singular event. In addition to that I strongly hope TPTB didn't base the complex concept that "The Numbers" are in the "'LOST'-iverse" on just a single real life-theme. There has to be more behind it, don't you think?!
Considering what we know about TPTB I'm almost certain that 42 is from "The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy", e.g.
Maybe Damon has a all-time favorite Yankee player whose retired jersey number became one of "The Numbers"?
Maybe 4 refers to J.J. Abram's wife and three children?
Maybe 8 refers to all the octagons (and vice versa! ;) ) in the show.
I'm not sure aboout 15 and 16, but 23 is my birthday, of course. :biggrin:
Anyway, there are so many great theories on the origin of "The Numbers" out there! I just cannot imagine it to be just some Yankees fan boy thing.
Talking of Yankees: Note to self: Rewatch "Faith Rewarded" tonight! :biggrin:

well, i'm in in Detroit, so you know how I feel about my team! Go Tigers!

Anyway, I thought this reference shows just how deep the other's surveillance is. the Red Sox reference was also notable, because that's how Sawyer realized that h
e had met Jack's dad at the bar. Jack made the Red Sox comment in the jungle and Sawyer, was all like, "what'd you say?" but he didn't reveal to Jack until a few episodes later that he had met Christian in an Ozzie bar. it was the Red Sox comment that made Sawyer realize he had met Jack's dead dad!

Well, it is true that the Numbers are all retired Yankee numbers.

4 - Lou Gehrig
8 - Yogi Berra and Bill Dickey
15 - Thurman Munson
16 - Whitey Ford
23 - Don Mattingly
42 - Jackie Robinson (MLB-wide) and someday Mariano Rivera



Thx, RamessesIX. The sad truth is I'm just too lazy to Google the info myself!

I know this is getting off-topic here, as there have been several other threads devoted to the numbers. But I'm curious now if the writers developed the entire mythology of the show from these numbers, beginning the story arc w/ the plane crash as a possible homage to Thurman Munson. What started out in reality as a simple nod and a wink to Yankee fans, became a springboard into a completely alternate reality. It's a deceptively simple idea, but I would not be surprised to learn that TPTB chose an original concept that meant something to them and then just ran with it. We all know by now that they are fans of writers like Stephen King, Charles Dickens, etc., and have made several references to these fine folks. What better way to honor your sports heroes than by using them as inspiration for an entire series? Oh, the tangled webs they weave! Okay, I'll go get caught up on the numbers threads now.

If the Yankees never play another game in MLB I would not be upset or sad. Talking about plane crashes, .... i don't want to say it.

your examples are pretty narrow "a news broadcast from November, the Macy's Thanksgiving Day parade, a copy of the smegging New York Times" check out the world map my friend

The fact that these two men can work together so successfully and actually be friends with each other is the most impressive argument for overcoming one's differences in favor of a greater good IMO.
It also shows that they probably are greater men than I'll ever be ... I know there are Red Sox / Yankees-couples but this wouldn't work for me. :rolleyes:
Good point. I work with hordes of Red Sox fans, and we get by OK, but I honestly don't know if I could have dated or married a Red Sox fan. I take baseball way too seriously, and I really, really hate that team.

And Thurman Munson died in a plane crash!
Spooky.


Not even the Yankees can retire the same number twice.

Sure they can! See #8 in my post above, retired for both Berra and Dickey, two catchers.


I mean, that was the deal with MLB retiring 42 in honor of Jackie Robinson, wasn't it? They only let those guys already wearing that number (Mo Vaughn, anybody? ) keep it as far as I know.
You are correct about that, but the Yankees can still ceremonially retire the number for Rivera as well, and give him his plaque out in Monument Park, which I certainly expect they will do once he hangs 'em up.


Very well done!

Thanks!

On the other hand, I do believe that statistics mean nothing at all if applied to one singular event. In addition to that I strongly hope TPTB didn't base the complex concept that "The Numbers" are in the "'LOST'-iverse" on just a single real life-theme. There has to be more behind it, don't you think?!

Well, that's the difference between probability and statistics, isn't it? To generate meaningful statistics, you definitely need a sufficient sample size, but one can predict based on probability based on pure math. What card did I just take from the deck? I only did it once. Will the answer change if I pull 10 cards?

I agree that intuitively, it feels unlikely that the Numbers were chosen solely based on Yankee jerseys. You do a good job presenting some alternative possibilities, and if we assume that the writers wanted for aesthetic reasons, say, two single-digit numbers, two more in the teens, and two more between 20 and 50 -- the likelihood I calculated of "no Yankee bias" goes up. That's what makes number-crunching such an art!


Considering what we know about TPTB I'm almost certain that 42 is from "The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy", e.g.
That would make a lot of sense.


Maybe Damon has a all-time favorite Yankee player whose retired jersey number became one of "The Numbers"?

Isn't he kind of youngish? If so, his favorite Yankee is/was probably Don Mattingly (#23). (Mine too!)

Anyway, there are so many great theories on the origin of "The Numbers" out there! I just cannot imagine it to be just some Yankees fan boy thing.
If I have time later, I'll come back and compare your alternatives with the Yankee hypothesis using Bayesian inference. That'll be a fun exercise.

well, i'm in in Detroit, so you know how I feel about my team! Go Tigers!
Good luck to them.


Anyway, I thought this reference shows just how deep the other's surveillance is.
I could be wrong, but I think the reference was more a nod to the fans (or a dagger to their chests, as the case may be). I don't think Ben knew that Jack was a Red Sox fan, or what his dad used to say (unless dad's somehow still alive there...), I think it was a natural thing to bring up.