I am sooo glad they had Sawyer using his conning talents in this episode. He played the clown, and tested his captors limits. Got info on who were the threats and who weren't. And got himself some nice smoochin' while he was at it. Just loved his moment of defiance. Sooo Sawyer and yet also just plain exciting and making you want to holler in support.

Fantastic to show him not soft, but clever. Letting everyone underestimate his smarts.

Pity he was on camera though. Damn Benry!

i love that about ben, think he is one the greatest character on this show. cuz while our losties are planing somethin, he is 3 steps ahead of them. sawyer is kinda showing how soft he is at the same time this season, and how he can snap as well.

I am sooo glad they had Sawyer using his conning talents in this episode. He played the clown, and tested his captors limits. Got info on who were the threats and who weren't. And got himself some nice smoochin' while he was at it. Just loved his moment of defiance. Sooo Sawyer and yet also just plain exciting and making you want to holler in support.

Fantastic to show him not soft, but clever. Letting everyone underestimate his smarts.

Pity he was on camera though. Damn Benry!

I have to disagree on the soft thing though. I thought it was very sweet. He knew he was going to get the cheesewhiz knocked out of him. He did it because Kate was exhausted. Yes, it was clever, but also sweet.

that scene was the best i have seen in awhile. he just cant help himself from kissing kate, does it, has that little smile then immediatly from smoochie woochie to awesome action. Glad we got that scene in there now with all those people who were thinking sawyer was a wimp. And the ending when he's planning shows that he knows WAY more about combat and fighting than anyone ever gave him credit for. I always knew he had that in him. And I'm glad it finally came out.

I'd say this episode puts to rest any doubts about Sawyer's "fightin" abilities. Man took out half a dozen others by himself.

Speaking of Gambit, you know Josh was offered the role right?

Kate needs to learn to start running from situations if she's not going to grab a gun and help. The only thing she's good for is being a hostage so our heroes bravery was for nothing.

Kate needs to learn to start running from situations if she's not going to grab a gun and help. The only thing she's good for is being a hostage so our heroes bravery was for nothing.

Yeah that was effing suspicious. I was like, let's go Kate, take that bitch down!!! Could she have been threatened with Sawyer's death if she too fought back?

Clever like a fox, that's our James!

But with Benry on to his every word, he's gonna get it. Big time. :sob:

He should have shot...

Sawyer's got 'em all sized up...but then can't keep his mouth shut. The Losties have GOT to assume they are being watched...or, at least listened to at all times. I can't wait until the element of surprise is on the Losties side for once.

yeah, kate seems to lose ALL of her uberness when shes in that dress. I mean the old kate i know from season 1 would have ripped that gun right out from juliet's hand and started pwning along with Sawyer.

Sawyer's got 'em all sized up...but then can't keep his mouth shut. The Losties have GOT to assume they are being watched...or, at least listened to at all times. I can't wait until the element of surprise is on the Losties side for once.

I think he knows he's being watched and is conning them somehow.

Kate needs to learn to start running from situations if she's not going to grab a gun and help. The only thing she's good for is being a hostage so our heroes bravery was for nothing.
You noticed that too? Apparently Kate is only combative is "she" has the opportunity to escape. JK. Anyway, loved that scene. It's now my favorite scene of the series. So far, Lost is 2 for 2 this season.

I think that Sawyer should have shot Juliet. If he knew in his heart that she would have shot Kate, he should have killed her first and then shot that guy that beat him. What does he have to lose? I'm glad that Colleen got gut shot, she deserved it. She's Ben's friend and that jackoffs girl (the one that kept beating Sawyer) I'd like to see the look on his yap when he finds out his girl was target practice, even if Sun didn't really mean to shoot her.

I have a feeling that if either Lostie had been alone and not concerned over each other, some Other would have died, most likely more than one of them. Kate may not be my Fave charactor, but she kicks *** when she needs to, and Sawyer, well, he aint afraid of anyone!(except Kate). :biggrin: Being tied down with concern over a friend or loved one's safety can really put a crimp in your ability to do what needs to be done.

Yeah I think that was why we had that dialogue of Sayid's about how having two prisoners means you get one to cooperate so the other doesn't get harmed.

As much as it would be cool if Sawyer have gone 'to hell with it' and sprayed some bullets, the reality is Juliet is a new regular whom the PTB seem to want to use as a major player (and apparently the media adores), so there was really not gonna be any chance the writers would've allowed Sawyer to shoot her.

I'd say this episode puts to rest any doubts about Sawyer's "fightin" abilities. Man took out half a dozen others by himself.
So true. Hee Hee. I think he broke Pickett's nose too. I love kickass Sawyer.

Sawyer's got 'em all sized up...but then can't keep his mouth shut. The Losties have GOT to assume they are being watched...or, at least listened to at all times. I can't wait until the element of surprise is on the Losties side for once. You will be waiting a LONG time, my friend. If there's one thing I have come to accept about this show, it's that our protagonists are chronic losers. As someone else said, the 'others' are, always have been, and always will be three steps ahead of the losties. They absolutely can't win. Especially considering they behave like total fools most of the time...

I think he knows he's being watched and is conning them somehow.

Yeah, I am getting the feeling, and I am HOPING that he is more than a match for Ben's big con. Which I have a feeling is what this is all going to prove out to be, Ben is trying to pull the wool over the losties, and the others in some way.

He just oozes evil.:dgrin:

It was GREAT to see Sawyer actually dish out some pain this time. That was great.

I think he knows he's being watched and is conning them somehow.

I agree. He's always running a con, that's his nature. That and being stubborn. Cool Hand Sawyer. :biggrin:

Was a great episode giving credit to Sawyer's Con Man skills!!!

However, I kept yelling at him to let Kate carry the wheelbarrow and he could BUST ROCKS!!

Liked the way he immediately was able to assess the situation with his "con", but felt bad that Benry knows his plan...:undecide:

Was a great episode giving credit to Sawyer's Con Man skills!!!

However, I kept yelling at him to let Kate carry the wheelbarrow and he could BUST ROCKS!!

Liked the way he immediately was able to assess the situation with his "con", but felt bad that Benry knows his plan...:undecide:
All Ben knows is what any prison guard should know, if you slip up the inmates will cut your throat.

I thought it was one of the best parts of the episode. I liked that he actually took some of them out instead of getting knocked out with one hit like people usually are on this island.

I agree with whoever it was who said they were glad to see clever Sawyer again. I was too, he's tons of fun to watch. :biggrin: I'd rather see that then his "dumb hick" persona any day, although I recognize that he can use both to his advantage.

I did find it kind of odd that Kate didn't jump in to help as much as she could have. Makes me wonder what's going on with her....
100%
I think he knows he's being watched and is conning them somehow.

But, why would he think that? He never saw the Pearl hatch, and so he wouldn't necessarily assume that the Others have surveillance capabilities.

However, I cast my vote for "con" as well. :smile:

Does anyone just consider that Kate realized that they weren't gonna get very far, so why waste energy?

But it was a slick move on James' part. And Kate "got it" once they were back in the cages. Knows him too well. When he puts on that crack-a-joke persona, it's cuz he's trying to distract people from something. Last week, it was distracting Tom from Kate. This week, it was trying to distract Kate from his pain, and not having her feel sorry for him. But she could see that it was more than even that. So he dropped the act and started rattling off to her what he'd learned from the fight.

And I'm not as sure as you folks that James IS aware that Benry can hear his every world. After all, the two of them are in cages in the jungle. But yeah, cameras and sound in open areas is a common thing. So who knows?

But if he's that sharp, he's GOT to know that he's asking for it! Is that the "mistake" he's hoping they'll make? If so, the "mistake" may turn out to be his own. . . .:eek:

It would take some time to do the research, but I'm almost positive that this is the first time someone's been hit in the head and not fallen unconscious in Lost. The island really does have healing powers! :rolleyes:

But yes, it was nice seeing Sawyer using his grape again. Too bad he absolutely forgot how to when he fell for Ana Lucia's oldest trick in the book of confidence tricks. For that matter, he became stupid again at the end of this episode: he doesn't have to be aware of surveillance equipment to think someone might be listening. He's in a cage, yelling his brilliant plan to Kate who's in another cage. All the Others would have to do would be to stand 15 feet away out of their field of vision. But whatever, you don't have to be smart when you've got 5-o-clock shadow all day long!

I am not sure if he is aware of them being under surveillance, but he might have gotten a clue when Carl escaped. Immediately the klaxons sounded with 'Inmate escaping' on the PA. It was pretty sudden, so maybe he will have put two and two together.

I am not sure if he is aware of them being under surveillance, but he might have gotten a clue when Carl escaped. Immediately the klaxons sounded with 'Inmate escaping' on the PA. It was pretty sudden, so maybe he will have put two and two together.

Yeah, that's true. I just figured that they had some kind of sensors on the cage doors that went off when they were opened suddenly. :shrug: I didn't necessarily take it to mean that they were being watched, although we obviously know now that they are.

It was good to see Sawyer up to his conning ways. That's the Sawyer I love - cool con man Sawyer and I hope we get to see more of that!

At the same time though, I love Henry and think he will totally pawn Sawyer. As someone said, he's just three steps ahead of Sawyer already.

Sawyer v. Henry would be pretty sweet :smile:

I am sooo glad they had Sawyer using his conning talents in this episode. He played the clown, and tested his captors limits. Got info on who were the threats and who weren't. And got himself some nice smoochin' while he was at it. Just loved his moment of defiance. Sooo Sawyer and yet also just plain exciting and making you want to holler in support.

Fantastic to show him not soft, but clever. Letting everyone underestimate his smarts.

Pity he was on camera though. Damn Benry!

All I can say is that the whole Sawyer/Kate sequence tonight...was absolutely delicious! :tongue1:

Sawyer is just one of the most complex, interesting, and FUN characters to watch. He is extremely smart and I think a lot of people underestimate that about him. Does he make mistakes? Sure, he's human. But a lot of times when he gets smacked around over something he says, I don't think he says it out of stupidity - he knows full well what the consequences will be and expects it. I could go on and on with my analysis of Sawyer, but suffice it to say, I loved watching him doing his thing tonight.

I am definitely concerned about him "seeming" to not know they are being watched and listened to. Poor Sawyer's got more suffering to do, I'm afraid. :frown:

I do. I do.
Sawyer's not stupid. He sees the intercoms and speakers and all their little technical devices. I bet his little talk with Kate was just to lead the Others on. Sawyer knows the Others are listening. He's had one too many run in's with them before.

I just find it awesome that the writers saw fit to have Sawyer use his skills to benefit himself and Kate. I love that they are letting him work to his strengths, even if it looks like he's still going to get the short end of the stick (if Benry's watching and listening to everything is any indication). It was great to see him play the Others with his jokey act. Kate sure seemed impressed when he finally revealed his strategy behind the kiss distraction. Although I think it was also obvious that he was aware Kate was exhausted and flagging, and he wanted to give her something to boost her spirits and not give up totally.

best move of the episode...not kissing kate (although that would be nice)...it was dumping the h2o out in juliet's face. sawyer's little f-u to the others. he's the most defiant thus far and, as a result, the most fun to watch this season.

I dont know, he probably didnt know he was being heard. But I dont think it really matters because even if they start being more careful, they will still slip up somewhere and he will be watching them for that.

I'm not so sure. If he knew his conversation was being heard, wouldn't he be more likely to inflate his perception of the others' strength? What purpose would he have in letting them hear that he thinks they're weak?

Sawyer the con-man ought to be smart enough to know he's being watched and listened to. The cameras are right there for him to see.

I think he's suspicious of Carl, and I think Kate is suspicious of Alex. Watch out for those two. The gang thing might have been a set-up to get Kate to put her trust in Alex and spill something. There's no other purpose for it that I can see.

Clever like a fox, that's our James!

But with Benry on to his every word, he's gonna get it. Big time. :sob:
I don't think so . . . he has to have suspected someone could be listening, or that cameras would be involved at an "observation facility". Bears aren't gonna act normal with people staring at them right there outside the cage. I'm leaning toward the notion he's conning them, but also that Kate's in with the Others, by threat, most likely, and Sawyer won't see it coming.


Gotta say I loved seeing him get the upper hand for once as well, although that short victory was shot down with Juliet's threat to shoot Kate.


And loved that it was sparked by his concern for Kate - love it when that soft side peeks out. And LOOOVVVED that second kiss!! :8: Passionate and tender at the same time, and that grin he gave her, when he knew he was about to get whacked. Thanks to whoever wrote that. :kiss:


And kudos to shootfire for finally finding a use for this smilie --> :fish:

If you watch the episode again, watch Sawyer right before he starts his little run down of the guards. He looks in the direction of the camera that Ben is using to watch him.

I think he knows exactly what he's doing.

The ironic thing is, I bet if they offered to make him an other, he'd take it.

I've wondered if they wouldn't have Sawyer take what they offer, citing "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" as his reason, only to have it be the ultimate con.

He might take it for the advantage the Others have over the castaways, but he hasn't seemed like the type who would let anyone tell him what to do.

Oops, got flashbacks of the "don't tell me what I can't do" line . . .

I think it's possible that Sawyer knows they were listening to him at the end. But if he does, it doesn't seem very smart of him to size up The Others and reveal his plan. He totally gave up his advantage by doing that. Unless he has another plan. If he is conning, then he made The Others believe that he is going to wait for them to slip up. Maybe he knows a way to escape and is fooling them into thinking he doesn't have any plan except to muscle his way out when they let their guard down.


Unfortunately, I think his plan is going to backfire. From the little we know of ep 4, Sawyer gets a beating, possibly a pretty bad one. I wonder if The Others are going to take make an offensive move to beat him up before he can escape. If this is the case, he should not have revealed any plans at all to escape, nor let them in on how strong he really is at sizing them up.

Sawyer is a smart and clever guy and they finally showed it on the island. He's so much more fun and interesting to watch that way.
A real Han Solo!

Hope they learned from the tree frog squishing tragedy. :mad:

Love it when they show Sawyer having a brain! That fight sequence was a blast, and that last bit... when he knows he's going to get zapped at waayyyy more than 1/4 strength and he just stands there with a "Bring it!" look on his face. Excelllent!

And the ending when he's planning shows that he knows WAY more about combat and fighting than anyone ever gave him credit for. I always knew he had that in him. And I'm glad it finally came out.

That also proves that he has self-control. He doesn't resort to physical violence unless there's a strategy behind it. Very smart. He has an incredible mind.

I'd rather see that then his "dumb hick" persona any day

Sawyer is in no way a "dumb hick". Never has been! Sometimes that's a stereotype of people from the South. Being beligerant doesn't mean "dumb"! ;)

If you watch the episode again, watch Sawyer right before he starts his little run down of the guards. He looks in the direction of the camera that Ben is using to watch him.

I think he knows exactly what he's doing.

I noticed him observing the details all around, but I missed the camera! I'm going to watch that again!

That was a really awesome fight! Pickett looked pretty bad after they were done. I hope Sawyer didn't break his ones. :p

Sawyer is in no way a "dumb hick". Never has been! Sometimes that's a stereotype of people from the South. Being beligerant doesn't mean "dumb"! ;)

Oh, I completely agree, I in no way think that he is dumb, he's actually very intelligent. What I meant was that I think that he utilizes the facade of being a "dumb hick" to his advantage. When he cultivates that image to others, they underestimate him and so he is able to take them all by surprise, much like he did last night. I was simply stating that I would like to see more of "clever Sawyer" than "dumb hick" Sawyer.

I really did think it was great to see Sawyer back up to his conning ways :)

I think I forget sometimes how good he is at it, because he hasn't always employed them on the island. Except during The Long Con of course ;). He just seems more upfront and more in your face in the island. LIke he'd rather fight about it than come up with plans. Interestingly enough he used the fighting to formulate a plan in this episode ;). I have to admit that I didn't think he was sizing them up or anything. I really just thought that he wanted to start some crap. That he knew he'd get beat down, but he saw Kate getting exhausted and he just felt like it was time for an insurgance...LOL. I was surprised when it turned out he was trying to gage their operation.

Unfortunately I don't think that he knows they were being listened to. I think that the losties keep underestimating what 'the others' are capable of. That's probably just a writing tool, because 'the others' need to keep besting them to progress the story ;)

I think Sawyer is smart, but in this case I think the Others, and specifically Benry may just be more skilled at manipulation and mind games than he is. At this stage, I think Sawyer will probably end up getting any escape attempts foiled.

Then again it's still possible that an opportunity will arise where the Others will slip up, and Sawyer and Kate take advantage of it. It just depends on what contingency measures Benry as put in place since he is aware of Sawyer's plans.

I think Sawyer thinks Sawyer is outsmarting the others.

Sawyer is definiately the most injured Lostie. Shot twice, stabbed, tortured, shocked twice, darted,

I think Sawyer thinks Sawyer is outsmarting the others.
lol, I just wrote exactly the same thing, word for word, then looked up and saw your post!

I think Sawyer's comments can be read on many levels. First and foremost, I think he needed to let Kate know that he's not out of control and that she can trust him. He told her enough to get that point across.

As to what he said, nothing would be damaging if the "others" knew what he was thinking. When someone is weak and you are strong, there isn't much harm in letting them know you are aware of that fact. If I were to fight a professional boxer, he could tell me that I'm slow, out of shape, and can't defend myself, but it wouldn't provide me with anything useful to defend myself from the inevitable beating. He would win whether or not I knew what he thought of my fighting skills.

The most damaging thing he said was revealing that the stun guns have safety switches. Even that could be beneficial to him, though. Suppose they realize that the stun guns won't be as effective because Sawyer might be able to prevent the shock. That would mean they couldn't use the stun guns. What's left? Shooting them? Perhaps if there were an outright mutiny, they might shoot him or Kate, but odds are they wouldn't shoot him just for kissing her, talking or taking a break from the work. So, in effect, by telling them that he knows about the stun gun safety, it decreases the likelihood of him getting shocked in the future.

I think the ultimate goal, however, was to let Kate know that she can fight back the next time he tries to scuffle. Sawyer knows Kate is a hoodlum at heart, and that she can handle herself in a fight. If he can get her to feel safe in doing so, then he will have her fighting alongside him next time instead of standing there playing hostage. I think he's hoping that Kate will take out the blond chick, because she appears to be most willing to kill, and because Kate would be more evenly matched against her.

He conveyed that point to Kate without saying anything that would cause the Others to know what he was really saying.

I agree Curly. At this stage I think the writers want the Others to pretty much have the upper hand, but with some wrinkles in terms of organization and leadership squabbles. Hopefully it will all come to a head and there will be a window of opportunity when chaos erupts and the captives are underestimated and Sawyer and Kate make their decisive move. I can't wait.

I actually think you are right that he was motivated to start something because Kate looked so exhausted and desolate. He wanted to give her something to rally her flagging spirits, and wanted to get in some licks and also wanted to assess the situation in terms of chances of escaping. In the shots leading up to the kiss, you see him notice Kate and really feel for her being so tired and helpless, then you see his face grow more calculating as he realises he can also create a diversion and get more intel WHILE cheering up his freckles and planting on on the woman he's clearly been smitten with. So yeah, I think he took advantage of the situation to achieve multiple goals.

I don't see what Sawyer would achieve by his converstion with Kate if he knew the others were listening. who knows though, we could get a surprise. That's what the show is all about!!

The most damaging thing he said was revealing that the stun guns have safety switches. Even that could be beneficial to him, though. Suppose they realize that the stun guns won't be as effective because Sawyer might be able to prevent the shock. That would mean they couldn't use the stun guns. What's left? Shooting them? Perhaps if there were an outright mutiny, they might shoot him or Kate, but odds are they wouldn't shoot him just for kissing her, talking or taking a break from the work. So, in effect, by telling them that he knows about the stun gun safety, it decreases the likelihood of him getting shocked in the future.

In the scene where Sawyer realized that the tasers have safety switches.....do you think that the heavy guy purposely set it on safety? Sawyer had the taser in his hand....could it be that Sawyer still has it?

I think Sawyer thought he was outsmarting the others but Ben and Juliet are much smarter and are better at taking advantage of situations. sense Ben heard them id say he is prepared for the eventuality of escape attempts my guess is we will see what they are willing to do to Kate and Sawyer in epi4

some of the others arent very careful there seems to be different levels of integllegence among the group. i think something is wrong with Carl but Alex is trying to help she let Claire go after all

I do think that Sawyer is making progress creating an advantage over the others. The fact that he took notice of each of them and judged their strengths shows that he really is thinking. I don't think that he knows about the camera (although he probably should suspect) but if the others hear him talking about their weakness i think they are just going to try to keep their guard up as best they can. Eventually they will make a mistake (i think it will be in episode 6 at the end of this "miniseries").

The fact that he told Kate that Juliet would have killed her no problem i think showed kate that she needs to take the others seriously but Kate is a tough girl so she could handle a confrontation.

Sawyer the con-man ought to be smart enough to know he's being watched and listened to. The cameras are right there for him to see.

Totally. he knows.... and it would be uncharacteristically stupid of him to not figure there are cameras everywhere and that the others are listening to everything they say.

On a side note, i agree with sawyer pouring out the water as being one of the best scenes in last night's epi. I just thought Sawyer was brilliant all around in this episode. Just enough "yes sir, boss" comments in there for it to seem like he's in total control -- and then the water thing. perfect.

This is Lost we're watching, guys. The show of the terminally incapable protagonists. Sawyer is most certainly not outsmarting the Others. Oh, he thinks he is, but he's not.

This is Lost we're watching, guys. The show of the terminally incapable protagonists. Sawyer is most certainly not outsmarting the Others. Oh, he thinks he is, but he's not.

I'm afraid I have to agree. He would've kept quiet otherwise and we would get another "new sherrif in town" moment.

Sawyer knows the others are listening. I think the reason Kate was so easily subdued by Juliet is because she is cooperating with them as a result of whatever happened at breakfast with Ben.

I think Sawyer knows that Kate could have easily defeated Juliet and now realizes that she is working with the Others, but does not want to let on. This is why he said that he knew Juliet would have shot her. He wants to make sure the Others don't think he is on to them.

Sawyer knows.

I LOVED the fact that Sawyer is back to bieng scarilyu intelligent con artist sawyer! It has always fraustrated me the way the writers don't seem to uterlise this aspect of his personality much, but I was so happy they used it in that episode and hopefully we will see more of it in future episodes!

Those two main scenes just defined all I love aout skate and I am just so pleased :biggrin:

I also think that sawyer doesn't realise they are ebing listened in on, I would love it if he is conning them, but I also think that for the moment the others are going to have the upper hand!

I also think that this i setting up

sawyer getting tortured in episode 4

Looks like we see less jack kate and sawyer and more of the other losties next episode which I am glad and not glad about if that makes any sense, just because the others and the whole situation is so damn intriguing! It will be good to see the other losties though and I think the eppy looks pretty awsome!

I agree. He's always running a con, that's his nature. That and being stubborn. Cool Hand Sawyer. :biggrin:

BEN; " What we have here,...........is a...faaiiluure ,,,,,,,,,,to communicate" Sawyer is running a con, and laughing like hell whilst doing it.:biggrin:

i loved that scene too. it was a great sawyer moment. i'd take a zappin' to be manhandled by sawyer. ;)

i am thinking that they are actually pulling one over on benry (what's the word i'm looking for? sherlock holmes used to do it.. anyways) instead of what some of you think (that benry is outsmarting them).

i mean, sawyer and kate together are as cunning as they come, and i thought it was odd too that kate didn't do anything, so that makes me think that they are playing with benry, knowing that they are always being watched. they would have to put 2 and 2 together right? i mean they are in cages with contraptions what shoot out fish biscuits as rewards, so i would think that they are smart enough to think that they are being watched 24/7. whereas ben thinks he's so smart that he can't be outsmarted, and that will be to his detriment imo.

I think big part of Sawyer's strategy is just to get under their skin. He's kindof like the trouble-making kid in the classroom that drives the teacher to her wit's end. Maybe he thinks if he's a big enough irritating smart-*** they'll beg him to just leave. Regardless, he has shown that he gains at least a form of power when he makes the Others lose their cool. Just like my 8 year old son (whose happens to be named Sawyer) does to me on occassion. I feel their pain... :strngsad:

...

I think the ultimate goal, however, was to let Kate know that she can fight back the next time he tries to scuffle. Sawyer knows Kate is a hoodlum at heart, and that she can handle herself in a fight. If he can get her to feel safe in doing so, then he will have her fighting alongside him next time instead of standing there playing hostage. I think he's hoping that Kate will take out the blond chick, because she appears to be most willing to kill, and because Kate would be more evenly matched against her.

He conveyed that point to Kate without saying anything that would cause the Others to know what he was really saying.

Interesting. I didn't give the writers that much credit for Kate's behavior. There was no evidence given to show what she was thinking about, other than annoyance/disgust at the Others and their predicament as prisoners. Kate's behavior in this episode was so removed from the character that they built in Seasons 1+2 that I felt she must have been injected with a kind of virus used to alter the Valenzetti equation.

If we see in episode 4(?) that she's changed her behavior then great, otherwise, this concept of Kate as not-Kate isn't working. When you take spicy chili and water it down so that Jack is not superman, Sawyer isn't evil anymore, and Kate has no "running" left in her, well then, you're left with a bland soup.

Don

I do. I do.
Sawyer's not stupid. He sees the intercoms and speakers and all their little technical devices. I bet his little talk with Kate was just to lead the Others on. Sawyer knows the Others are listening. He's had one too many run in's with them before.




I'm not with you on this. If sawyer knew about the cameras and recorders he wouldn't have revealed all the "intelligence" he gathered by his littlle ploy. He gains nothing by babbling to Kate like he did.

Sawyer is a con man. He should be able to read people like a book and use their weaknesses against them. He was testing them. Remember, he knows who taser guy's gal is. Although, his gal, Colleen, could be gone for good now. He's sizing them up.

I find it interesting that no one has brought up the fact that although Sawyer confided in Kate, she's told him nothing about her experiences. We know nothing about what transpired during her breakfast with Ben, other than she was wearing handcuffs, and was obviously quite upset afterwards. Wouldn't she think that sharing any information at all that she had about the Others with Sawyer would be helpful? I think that's kind of odd ...

I think Sawyer is smart, but in this case I think the Others, and specifically Benry may just be more skilled at manipulation and mind games than he is.

not to mention, Ben can listen to everything he says and watch everything he does. Definite advantage.

Sawyer might have just been trying to upset them, but, I doubt they would take what he said to heart. Unless they move Kate, and Sawyer away from each other because the Others know they have been talking.... Maybe Sawyer will try something then...

He gains nothing by babbling to Kate like he did.


To the contrary. By letting them know what he learned about them, he could force them to change their game plan. THAT is what could lead to them making a mistake--by forcing them to scramble to formulate a new plan that isn't as well rehearsed or whatever.

This is an old school method of playing mind games with an opponent. Let the other side know you got their number and force them to try to make the best of it or adapt.

I agree with most of you here. Seeing Sawyer back on his ways was great. I also believe he knew he was listened/watched. He's had clues -Carl's escape attempt, that they knew how long took the bears to find the trick for the fish biscuit therefore they were somehow observed-
as for an upcoming beating, I think he knows and he's willing to endure it, just like he endured Sayid's torture

Finally! Action Sawyer with Kung Fu Grip! Hi-yah!
Others -------> :stretchr:

I think that Sawyer's streetsmarts and survival skills are kicking in. But I also agree with those who think he blabbed to Kate because he can't stand looking like stupid in front of her.

Sawyer didn't really reveal anything that The Others probably don't already know about him. They know he is a pain in the *** and a loose canon. They know he wants revenge against them and will probably try to escape. I'm starting to think now that Sawyer probably knows The Others are watching, but what does he have to lose? They have him and Kate at every advantage. K&S are outnumbered, outmuscled and outpositioned. Even if they do escape, where would they go? They would have to live like Danielle in order to avoid capture.

I think Sawyer's main goal is to impress and win over Kate at this point. He is willing to fight, get beat up/shocked - whatever it takes. The Others are secondary to him at this point. Captivity gives him the chance to be with her 24/7. When else would he get such great views of her behind? Sawyer is loving captivity:biggrin: .

We've seen Kate take out a U.S. Marshal, but she cowers when Sawyer starts a fight with the others? Something's not right here.
Either she's compromised to allow the others to "lab-rat-test" Sawyer or she's in on it with Sawyer to keep the Others off balance. (Is there anyone who believes that an experienced con-man like Sawyer wouldn't think the Others have cameras recording them?)
My 2 cents...

I agree with most of you here. Seeing Sawyer back on his ways was great. I also believe he knew he was listened/watched. He's had clues -Carl's escape attempt, that they knew how long took the bears to find the trick for the fish biscuit therefore they were somehow observed-
as for an upcoming beating, I think he knows and he's willing to endure it, just like he endured Sayid's torture

Huh...I hadn't thought about those little tid bits of information that have been dropped, but you're right. "Cha-Chi" got out of that cage pretty easily, and that apology he was made to give Sawyer was disconcerting and unnecessary to say the least.

Whether Sawyer knows they're being watched and listened to or not remains to be seen, but I wouldn't be surprised if he is aware of that, and in his own way is forcing the "Others" to deal with him differently. I'm also not completely convinced that he isn't suspect of Kate and her listless demeanor. Kate's a fighter like he is, and this give up attitude she's exuding isn't something he's used to seeing. Truth be told, neither am I...and I hope there's some explaination soon for it. Although, a part of me fears the answer.


As an aside, I'm glad to see the writers remembering that Sawyer is an intelligent, shrewd, cunning, perceptive, yet diabolically selfish character. Like the kiss/fight/beatdown scene, the audience had no reason to believe Sawyer kissing Kate had more to do than giving her a much needed break, and his getting off on kissing a hot chick he had been eye-balling all day. ;) It was nice to see the man throwing some punches, but I had no idea that the kiss held a two-fold purpose.

We don't always need to know what he's thinking, or planning until he speaks or acts. However, in portraying the character this way, it doesn't drop an anvil of unsuspecting information concerning the character, or some new found skills that we're supposed to swallow hook, line and sinker as being a part of the characters make-up just because you know, that character has to have something cool about him or her that the audience will find cool. :rolleyes:

Sawyer knows the others are listening. I think the reason Kate was so easily subdued by Juliet is because she is cooperating with them as a result of whatever happened at breakfast with Ben.

I think Sawyer knows that Kate could have easily defeated Juliet and now realizes that she is working with the Others, but does not want to let on. This is why he said that he knew Juliet would have shot her. He wants to make sure the Others don't think he is on to them.

Sawyer knows.

:clap: I wondered why he said that line, it didn't seem to fit the scene, but I think you hit the nail on the head and it's part of his con.

I'm not with you on this. If sawyer knew about the cameras and recorders he wouldn't have revealed all the "intelligence" he gathered by his littlle ploy. He gains nothing by babbling to Kate like he did.

If Sawyer knows he's being listened to maybe he's given Ben false info. What if he said the one guy has heavy hands, because he was really one of the weakest? Or the guy with the shaggy hair doesn't have any martial arts skills? This might force Ben to change the guards and open an opportunity for Sawyer to get the upper hand again.

Sawyer is a con man. He should be able to read people like a book and use their weaknesses against them. He was testing them. Remember, he knows who taser guy's gal is. Although, his gal, Colleen, could be gone for good now. He's sizing them up.

Did you notice how Sawyer took in that scene when Colleen and Danny kissed? I thought he was seeing a situation to exploit later.

Walt!! Glad to see you again! :hug:
:clap: I wondered why he said that line, it didn't seem to fit the scene, but I think you hit the nail on the head and it's part of his con.I took it at face value, but even if he did know she was working with them, maybe he said it to point out to her she's in cahoots with people who she cannot trust.


If Sawyer knows he's being listened to maybe he's given Ben false info. What if he said the one guy has heavy hands, because he was really one of the weakest? Or the guy with the shaggy hair doesn't have any martial arts skills? This might force Ben to change the guards and open an opportunity for Sawyer to get the upper hand again.
If it is part of his con, which I hope it is, he'd HAVE to give good info or the Others would be suspicious. I think the Others would put heavier guards around him next time, regardless of whether he sized the others up or not, just for the fact he tried to escape.


Did you notice how Sawyer took in that scene when Colleen and Danny kissed? I thought he was seeing a situation to exploit later.
YES! I thought the same thing! :biggrin: I wonder if Colleen survived . . . .


Love it when they show Sawyer having a brain! That fight sequence was a blast, and that last bit... when he knows he's going to get zapped at waayyyy more than 1/4 strength and he just stands there with a "Bring it!" look on his face. Excelllent!I LOVED that too!!



Finally! Action Sawyer with Kung Fu Grip! Hi-yah!
Others -------> :stretchr:
:lol2:

If Sawyer knows he's being listened to maybe he's given Ben false info. What if he said the one guy has heavy hands, because he was really one of the weakest? Or the guy with the shaggy hair doesn't have any martial arts skills? This might force Ben to change the guards and open an opportunity for Sawyer to get the upper hand again.

I was thinking something similar to this. If Sawyer's conning, then he would have to be providing some misdirection, not just say, "Well I can take this one and they'll make a mistake," etc. I think the things he said about the ones you mention might have been true, but what if the lie was about Juliet? It makes sense to me that if trying to plant a lie you start with some truths to build momentum with the listener, then slip the lie in unsuspectingly. So Sawyer figures that she is the weakest link, and now he could have his listener thinking, "Hmm, he's intimidated by Juliet. I'll use that." Now as you are saying, maybe they change up the guard to include Juliet more - or even better, get her alone with Sawyer working her psycho-babble. Now he has gained an advantage based on misdirection...conned.

Of course, the question then becomes - If he feels Juliet is the weakest link and would not have actually shot Kate, why did he give up the fight? I think that it's for the same reason that he started the fight in the first place. It has been posted, and I agree, that besides just wanting to open up a can on them, he thought Kate was tired from busting up rocks and needed a break. She might not be in the best shape right then to make a run for it. So he played it well given the circumstances.

Sawyer is,has been, and always will be a con man. He is running the con game of his life, and the stakes are his and Kate's lives. She knows or understands Sawyer better than anyone on the island, and I think she picked up rather quickly on his "game".

At least I hope so! :biggrin: Neither one of them has ever been so afraid of someone, they did not fight back. But they do know enough to choose their battles. What went on between Ben and Kate?, who knows, but I think she is quicker witted than the scary, creepy, subliminally physco Ben, Sawyer will be proud of his "freckles", I have no doubt!

*echo jumps up and down, waving excitedly* Walt!!!!!!!!! "HEY YA! Walt!!!!!!!!"
* lands on tree root while jumping up and down, stumbles, falls on *** *
"damn!" *much cursing and mumbling: sheepish grin, waves*

"hey, walt, miss you!"

I was thinking something similar to this. If Sawyer's conning, then he would have to be providing some misdirection, not just say, "Well I can take this one and they'll make a mistake," etc. I think the things he said about the ones you mention might have been true, but what if the lie was about Juliet? It makes sense to me that if trying to plant a lie you start with some truths to build momentum with the listener, then slip the lie in unsuspectingly. So Sawyer figures that she is the weakest link, and now he could have his listener thinking, "Hmm, he's intimidated by Juliet. I'll use that." Now as you are saying, maybe they change up the guard to include Juliet more - or even better, get her alone with Sawyer working her psycho-babble. Now he has gained an advantage based on misdirection...conned.

Of course, the question then becomes - If he feels Juliet is the weakest link and would not have actually shot Kate, why did he give up the fight? I think that it's for the same reason that he started the fight in the first place. It has been posted, and I agree, that besides just wanting to open up a can on them, he thought Kate was tired from busting up rocks and needed a break. She might not be in the best shape right then to make a run for it. So he played it well given the circumstances.
Oooh, I like that theory - he's on to Kate, and conning her, too. Interesting . . .

that last bit... when he knows he's going to get zapped at waayyyy more than 1/4 strength and he just stands there with a "Bring it!" look on his face. Excelllent!

That really stood out to me. He knew that was the price to pay and held open his arms. I was breathless.

Close to the beginning of the episode when the others throw sawyer into the cage we see him look up and the cameras pan out to the cameras and the listening device. Do you think he knows that the cameras are on him frequently??? If so do you think hes going to try to trick them by setting up a plan, knowing the others will be listening to the whole thing. Don't forget he is the con master.

I think its certainly possibly. Especially if it were Locke or Eko in his situation because of their discovery of the Pearl. Its gonna be interesting!

loved that scene.
i think he knows about the cameras but he's in doubt about the listening,that's why he talked about the Others' weakness/strenght with kate,maybe to see if they'll react to that.he's on a long con again,remember: it's getting someone to do something like it's their idea...

Yup, the good con man is always at work!

Just to amplify on my earlier post, I think there is a good reason for Sawyer to put down all the men. I think he's trying to make sure that Kate is left alone with Juliette and all the guys focus on Sawyer. Whether he's right or not, he probably assumes that the Others think Kate is docile and helpless. He also understands chivalry. So, if all the men jump Sawyer and then Kate gets the drop on Juliette, Kate can use her as a hostage to gain control of everyone. It's really the only viable way that Kate and Sawyer could gain an edge over that group of "guards."

I don't believe for a second that Sawyer was oblivious to the fact that he and Kate were being watched and listened to at the end of the episode when he was talking about the Others' fighting abilities. There's no way his history of con artistry would allow him to be so naive...

I think he had one of two reasons for his apparently unguarded comments:
a.) He wanted the Others to know that they weren't getting anything past him, and wanted them to be slightly afraid that he had them figured out -- he knew most of them didn't have experience with guns, he knew he could get the better of most of them, etc.
OR
b.) He was totally lying through his teeth. Of course Kate wouldn't know he was feeding her a bunch of untruths, but he could have made comments to her that were completely off-base to make the Others think he was a fool and didn't have them figured out. Then maybe they'll relax a little, thinking they've outsmarted him, which would give Sawyer the chance to take advantage of them.

I think the other's actually did outsmart him. Though he's a con man I don't think there was any way he could have anticipated the others listening in on him, I mean he's being kept in an animal cage after all.