I got the distinct impression from Colleen, who isn't as a sincere or earnest as Ben or Juliet (and when I say earnest I mean she's not as good a liar), that the others really are the enemy, and will use any tactic to try and gain the upper hand. They seem to have a weak "story" or "partyline" that is all about "we're not your enemy" but they won't tell them (us) the reason why. The more they say it, the less I believe it.

I'd have shot her too, then got a bead on the door and shot anyone else who stuck thier face down. Wouldn't you? Sun could have popped two of those suckers tonight! ;)

Set the boat on FIRE but don't let the others have it!

I think their arrogant attitude toward Jack last season about "Cross this line and it goes from misunderstanding to somethin' else" is becoming reality for the others a little more slower than it should!

Like, they don't get it. I don't think the others really understand that it WAS "somethin' else" all along for the Losties. They never saw the others as anything but a threat.

And short of a thanksgiving style feast with the others, what in the hell were they supposed to think?

Ben wants to talk "perspective" to Jack without seeing Jack's first, and I don't mean in the conversation, I mean in the grand sense of how could they expect anything less from the survivors? If you're going to have a conversation with Jack, you can't bend his will, so dangle a carrot. If that doesn't work, bring Kate in and put a knife to her throat. Flood the hallway with water.

Would Ben slit Kate's throat right in front of Jack to prove a point or as a way to express his power over thier lives?

Because it's going to stop being about control at some point. Ben truly seems intent on controlling the situation as best he can. And obviously they are working to protect something beyond just thier gazebo and book club lifestyle. Unless the rock breaking is nothing more than a way to keep thier prisoners busy, which I doubt.

They are after something there. Probably somehting very valuable.

It will be very interesting to see if "we're not the enemy" will become "THEY are the enemy" for the others before episode 6. Because right now, I'm not sure the others view the losties as a true threat. They are playing the "divide and conquer" game with them, but:

What will happen if the others decide the losties ARE an enemy?

We have a war? :eek:

I don't think a war is coming. That's my point, the others seem like, if they wanted to, they could just kill all the castaways and be done with it. If the producers really want to go that route, they could have last season.

I think if they start seeing the castaways as a real threat, and as true enemies, as somehting they could not control, they would get them off the island.

Don't count out the Island. The turtle will awaken. Beware what is below.

The turtle will awaken.

Yeah, I've been thinking about that. It goes back to a George Carlin joke about the earth shaking us off, after watching the preview for next weeks show, I gotta wonder if the island is going to tell Locke how to rid it of the others!! The island wants the others gone!

Well, it IS their island, isn't it?
I mean, at LEAST one of them grew up on it.
So, maybe the Losties are really the invaders.,

So, maybe the Losties are really the invaders.

The term "invade" implies a choice. The losties crashed on the island. There was no invasion.

And Ben could be lying. He does that.

A lot.

I still firmly believe that the group we've been calling the Others really AREN'T the enemy. We'll have to wait and see, I guess...

I was also in interested in Colleen's comment to Sun on the boat . . . "We're not the enemy, but if you shoot me, that's exactly what we'll become". I need to read through the Colleen thread that's out there today, but my first impression was that she was a bit expendable, so why retribution if she's shot? Despite the appearances of Danny being her significant other, and that maybe Danny and Colleen have a higher place in the 'Others' hierarchy, they both seem like mere henchwomen and henchmen to me.

It seemed like a weak threat. I'm with Sawyer - the Others have their hands full with our Losties.

What baffles me, and I am starting to think is a key to the entire Others mystery, is why the Others bothered the Losties at all. Here are the Others, living miles away in a practically hidden community, having book club meetings. The plane crashes. Odds are the plane crash survivors would've never found the Others. The Others instead went to them. Someone kidnapped (and possibly murdered) tail section survivors (but why not Fuselage survivors?). Others infiltrated the Losties camps and pretended to be survivors, gathering information on the Losties to be used to hurt/manipulate them at a later time.
Why? The Others took the initiative, made the contact, started the attacks. And the Others are saying they're not the bad guys?

Obviously they want something from the Losties, otherwise they would've just left them alone, right?

i doubt the Others are "good" or "bad" sense those words nowadays seems to depend on society it will be great to find out there motives and why there are doing what they are doing i dont believe that Ben or Juliet are messing with Jack anymore especailly at the end of the 2 epis

It is baffling . . . I still get freaked out by the fact that they had lists of names to capture.

I think that a war is definitely brewing. Basically it has since last season when Jack wanted to train an army. I think fate/destiny has brought these people together -- The Losties that is -- in order to wage a war with the others because they're well-suited for the job.

If you examine all the Losties they have all the skills and character necessary to fight anyone and anything as a collective force.

I was also in interested in Colleen's comment to Sun on the boat . . . "We're not the enemy, but if you shoot me, that's exactly what we'll become". I need to read through the Colleen thread that's out there today, but my first impression was that she was a bit expendable, so why retribution if she's shot? Despite the appearances of Danny being her significant other, and that maybe Danny and Colleen have a higher place in the 'Others' hierarchy, they both seem like mere henchwomen and henchmen to me.

It seemed like a weak threat. I'm with Sawyer - the Others have their hands full with our Losties.

But it is interesting when you think about that "threat" in light of what happened to Ana Lucia. "Henry" attacked her...and his line right before he attacked was "you killed two of us." He never attempted to go after Sayid, Locke, or Jack.

Eko is the only one who doesn't fit the bill. He killed two of them on the first night with his bare hands, and when he went in to talk, 'Henry' didn't say anything about killing two of his people. But then again, that whole scene had a sort of confession/repentance feel to it...so maybe his actions won't be held against him the way Ana Lucia's and potentially Sun's were/will be.

This does open so many more can's of worms. I completely agree, the Losties would most likely never have found them. It's like they wanted to be found. At the same time, they REALLY wanted Aaron.

I think like at lot of other people here, that we could be in for a war between the two groups, but the reason we haven't gotten one yet is because we hadn't really been introduced to the Others yet. Last season, if there was a big battle, plenty of Others could have been wiped out without us knowing what they were up to. Whatever their plot is must be important enough to us to learn it first, and then we'll see some real conflict.

About the Others' involvement with the Losties, we still don't know why they are so interested in them yet, but the main reason they seem to have infiltrated camps was to collect a list of names on who they are. We now know for sure that the Others can contact the outside world; they must have needed to know who the survivors were so they could dig up dirt on them, or figure out who met their needs, so they could decide who to take.

I think they took the Tailies first because that camp was closer to their little community. In that scene in the first episode of season 3 it appears that way. Remember the Tailies never have seen anything about the "security system" as far as I know. So maybe the Fusies were far enough way where the "security system" would keep them away.

They want the losties for experiments. They take blood from them for a reason. They think they are saving the world so the end justifies the means. They can't have all of the losties confront them at the same time because they do not have that much manpower. They have been picking them off in groups.

Dude, the Udders are TOTALLY good people. Kidnapping pregnant girls, snapping necks like chickens, abducting people from lists, using false aliases, beating the snot out of people, having Michael resort to murder, and neglecting to help plane crash survivors? All just a big misunderstanding. Once you see things from their perspective, I'm sure you'd have done the same thing if put in their place.

Give me a break...

This is probably the most simplistic explanation, but it seems to me that the Others have some secret to protect. That would explain why they infiltrated the groups, didn't direct them back to mainstream soceity, and have killed or kidnapped anyone who got too close. They wanted to ensure that these new castaways didn't stumble upon anything they shouldn't and identify who within the groups would be liable to do so in the future. The lists may have served to perhaps weed out and/or kill anyone too "curious," and anyone liable to organize the group in a way that might lead to further exploration of the island or compromise of their "secret." This doesn't really explain why they wouldn't take or kill Locke, Eko, or Sayid, though.

I do not believe that Ben can be trusted to send anyone "home." The first thing anyone would do is tell everyone about the island. I suppose calculated threats might keep someone silent, but that would seem like a major gamble for a group who clearly wants to keep themselves invisible to the rest of soceity. If Jack trusts this "deal" Ben is proposing, he is signing his own death warrant. So, where are Michael and Walt?

The term "invade" implies a choice. The losties crashed on the island. There was no invasion.

And Ben could be lying. He does that.

A lot.:grin: :D

Yes, he sure does. I really like this whole thread. The key problem is what the first person stated. WHY? How are the Losties supposed to believe them when all they have reference to is deception and violence. "We are good, but we aren't going to tell you why we are doing these seemingly bad things" just doesn't cut it. I guess it keeps the show going, but it's really unrealistic. That is if the Others don't want the tailies to defend themselves, (ie Sun shooting Colleen, etc).

I personally think that the others (these others;)) are good. They may be a bit shady, but they likely have a big reason to do so, one of which we're soon to find out.

In all the things that have happened, in the previous series, it's down to representation of how it was done. You watch Lost from the Losties point of view, so you'll side with them, and think that they're automatically the good guys and the others are 'evil'.

Whereas, the phrase "Humans fear what they do not understand" comes into mind, and the Losties confused, and unknowing in their intentions have acted in a somewhat impulsive and erational fashion, taking the others actions as bad, because they simply dont understand.

The kidknappings? They must of had a special reason to do so. And it's not like the others are going to pop up from nowhere on a seemingly deserted island and go "Hey guys, can we borrow these children?" - The losties would go nuts.

But, I'm sure all will come clear this season.:)

What baffles me, and I am starting to think is a key to the entire Others mystery, is why the Others bothered the Losties at all.Suppose that it's just not possible to get off the island. Then the gene pool becomes really important. And who "gets together" with whom is elevated from a matter of personal attraction to one of long-term survival.

My take on this is that the Others are probably trying to behavioralize the three Losties into a change of a...perspective. Breaking rocks may just be a way to condition Kate and/or Sawyer. Isolating Jack from the other two takes away his opportunity to make decisions for them and "help" them. That leaves him incredibly useless, in his eyes. He has nothing to "fix" other than his own situation.

Very possibly the early guesses that this is an experiment gone awry are correct. This probably belongs in the "theories" section, but what the heck: The experiment gone awry wasn't a physics experiment, but a psychological experiment. Benry living on the island this whole time (and possibly some of the other Others) would tend to warp his humanity. While they may very well believe they are NOT enemies or even dangerous, in the eyes of the rest of the world they might seem VERY dangerous. Psychological testing without oversight, without external ethical limits being imposed and enforced, is truly scary!
100%
Breaking rocks in the hot sun (I can't get that song out of my head today!) is a nice metaphor for trying to break the wills of the three Losties.

The Others seem to belong to some kind of highly structured (if not downright dogmatic) organization or society. I think that they believe that are the "good guys" because of their fervent belief that what they are doing is not only important, but neccessary. The Others seem to think that they know the best way to be, and are taking the steps to ensure that way is preserved. To them their work/society it is more imporant than a single person's life, maybe that is the perspective that Ben wanted Jack to consider?
Maybe they have been living that way for so long that they cannot lower themselves to consider anyone else's views? If, say, they needed Claire's baby to continue their "important" work then who cares if a washed up rock star and a teenage mother have to die?

I don't know about the "protecting a secret" theory. Why attack/kidnap the survivors if you didn't want them to know about or find you? Though Colleen was only concerned about the sail boat because it mean the Losties could find them. Did anyone else find it interesting that Juliet said that all the Losties could do with the boat was "sail around in circles"? Does she know about the snowglobe effect that kept Desmond from getting away?

I told my wife after the very first episode that IF the writers have a clear plot line and objective from beginning to end, this could be the greatest show in history. However, they most likely have a great idea and will eventually just start trying to create the storyline as they go. The latter is appearing to be the case. Unfortunately, if all the cool clues don't really ever lead to any clear, logical end, then the viewers will not only be bored, but resentful for leading us on a path to no where. There will be all sorts of questions with no answer other than, "we thought it was really cool and mysterious". Which, coincidentally is very much like most of King's novels. Weird stuff for weird sake. Not really a clue to lead you somewhere. Having no real meaning. I sure hope this isn't what's happening. I hope there is a real clever connection with what's going on with the Others, the Island, why all the losties are interconnected, and electromagnetism. I'd hate for this to fade out the same way The X-files did for the same reason.

My take on this is that the Others are probably trying to behavioralize the three Losties into a change of a...perspective. Breaking rocks may just be a way to condition Kate and/or Sawyer. Isolating Jack from the other two takes away his opportunity to make decisions for them and "help" them. That leaves him incredibly useless, in his eyes. He has nothing to "fix" other than his own situation.

Very possibly the early guesses that this is an experiment gone awry are correct. This probably belongs in the "theories" section, but what the heck: The experiment gone awry wasn't a physics experiment, but a psychological experiment. Benry living on the island this whole time (and possibly some of the other Others) would tend to warp his humanity. While they may very well believe they are NOT enemies or even dangerous, in the eyes of the rest of the world they might seem VERY dangerous. Psychological testing without oversight, without external ethical limits being imposed and enforced, is truly scary!
100%

Wow. (clap,clap,clap) Kudos to you for a very intelligent, insightful response. I'm impressed!:)

It is baffling . . . I still get freaked out by the fact that they had lists of names to capture.


Yeah this makes me think about early in the first season, may have been the 2nd epi i can't recall but Hurley asked Jack if it would be a good idea if he made a list of everyone's names who survived so they could at least know who each other is called. Or was it more than this? The others did let Hurley go... why? Hmmmmm?

I find this very frusterating, the others continue to allude to the idea that they are good and doing something important but don't really offer any info and then are surprised that the losties are freaking out and resisting them!!

if the others really believe in whatever their cause turns out to be, why all the secrecy and attacks?

why all the psychological games?

Its actually beginning to annoy me beyond my suspension of disbelief, its becoming like a bad horror movie (in this regard only) in that you find yourself shouting at the screen for the dumb teenager not to run into the dark woods -

if what you are doing is so important, then why not just tell the people you need for some reason, what is going on

all the drama and killing is because of the way the others have handled their introduction and interaction with the losties - and they are apparently geniuses of human behavior and psychology, it doesn't add up

I truly hope that the writes come up with a plausible excuse for the others not just coming clean...

all that said, I still love lost!!

No, maybe the others are facing an enemy of their own...

Remember that in the last scene of last seson the arctic science station (?) warned someone (cant remember who) about the seismic/electromagnetic reading they discovered. Obviously someone is watching the watchers here...

I told my wife after the very first episode that IF the writers have a clear plot line and objective from beginning to end, this could be the greatest show in history. However, they most likely have a great idea and will eventually just start trying to create the storyline as they go. The latter is appearing to be the case. Unfortunately, if all the cool clues don't really ever lead to any clear, logical end, then the viewers will not only be bored, but resentful for leading us on a path to no where. There will be all sorts of questions with no answer other than, "we thought it was really cool and mysterious". Which, coincidentally is very much like most of King's novels. Weird stuff for weird sake. Not really a clue to lead you somewhere. Having no real meaning. I sure hope this isn't what's happening. I hope there is a real clever connection with what's going on with the Others, the Island, why all the losties are interconnected, and electromagnetism. I'd hate for this to fade out the same way The X-files did for the same reason.
I am in complete agreement of this and could not of said it any better. The scraps tossed to the viewers are discussed to exhaustion and I either find that these scraps are: A) forgotten about. B) answered in such a convoluted way that making 2+2 =4 a headache. C) Nothing at all. "Weird for the sake of being weird".
This episode pissed me off. Not because of the typical one thing answered 2 or 3 new things popping up dynamic, but because our crash survivors just can't get an edge. An incredible amount of time is spent building up how our losties are going to get over on the "others" just to have it knocked down in a millisecond. Even Sawyer's assessment of the "others" was one upped by "ben"
Gahh!!

Maybe shes trying to tell them that they arent attacking them, but really are just protecting themselves with self-defense. She also did say that she couldnt let sun go because she has to do what shes told and has no control over it. And they didnt bother to ambush saiyd(whos a big risk to them) and jin. Why not kill 2 birds with one stone, get the boat and get rid of a liability to the others.(also why did ben want sayid to find the fake camp?)
Im lookin at it as when they have killed someone, we dont know why goodwin snapped nathans neck and why he was a bad person. Maybe he was another group who lived on the island who are the bad guys and gots rid of him because of that. Did ethan really kill sceve or hang charlie, we never saw him do it. they didnt kill our losties in the hunting party. I think that they have a prupose to what they doing and they need it done maybe for survival and they did let michael go, as ben said micheal kept his word, so he kept his. lets not forget s1 finally others shot at our losties cuz sawyer shot at them first, for all we know they were gona tazer gun them until sawyer shot at them and they reacted rash. just some thought into this subject. but also what im thinking is dont assume something until we actually see it, for a long time we thought the others were hillbillie natives on the island. and look at them now.

also producers have said that this season its "them vs us"...but whos them and whos us?

What confuses me is that , until now we've been spoonfed all of this "predetermination" stuff: the Losties are all connected....they're here for a reason (as Locke is fond of saying).....they all fit a specific profile for the Others' supposed tests----something like that. The Losties' connected flashbacks, the hatch station, the Swan, all seemed to point to the theory that the Others brought all of these people together for whatever reason.

But now, from what we learned in epp. 1, it appears that the Others didn't plan for the Losties to be there. Which begs the question: why are the Others even ON the island?? They have a social order, work facilities, etc that appear to be just waiting for "test subjects" like the Losties to show up. They are even prepared to sent two people to infiltrate the tailies and the fusies. So WHY were the Others there in the first place if they weren't expressly waiting for the Losties to crash???

I definately think the Others have been waging some sort of warfare from the beginning, though the questions remain: Why don't they just kill all of the Losties if they're protecting something and don't want outsiders on the island? Why do they go through all the trouble of putting up a front of being "the good guys" or being "uncivilized" if the crash was a surprise??

I agree 100% noeland, she should have popped Coleen in the head though and then the next mug that looked down the hatch.

Maybe the Others are "not the enemy you seem to think we are" but no way in hell are they "good." As pointed out before, they've done nothing to help the Losties. Claim whatever they like, when their reaction to a plane crash they observed was "you infiltrate this group, you infiltrate the other" rather than "let's all get down there and see if anyone survived so we can help" then they're morally ambiguous to say the least. It doesn't matter what their "secrets" might be, they have food, tools, and contact with the outside world (at least in some way).

Good people help others in trouble, they don't investigate them and make lists of their names. Even if they had never killed or kidnapped a single survivor of the crash, they're not good guys. I for one am very interested in learning exactly what the Others' definition of "Good" is.

I don't think that the Others feel threatened by the Losties (even though they do) as much as they want to do something with them. It's less about protecting secrets and more about doing experiments, or so it seems.

I find this very frusterating, the others continue to allude to the idea that they are good and doing something important but don't really offer any info and then are surprised that the losties are freaking out and resisting them!!

if the others really believe in whatever their cause turns out to be, why all the secrecy and attacks?

why all the psychological games?

Its actually beginning to annoy me beyond my suspension of disbelief, its becoming like a bad horror movie (in this regard only) in that you find yourself shouting at the screen for the dumb teenager not to run into the dark woods -

if what you are doing is so important, then why not just tell the people you need for some reason, what is going on

all the drama and killing is because of the way the others have handled their introduction and interaction with the losties - and they are apparently geniuses of human behavior and psychology, it doesn't add up

I truly hope that the writes come up with a plausible excuse for the others not just coming clean...

all that said, I still love lost!!

Maybe the Others are "not the enemy you seem to think we are" but no way in hell are they "good." As pointed out before, they've done nothing to help the Losties. Claim whatever they like, when their reaction to a plane crash they observed was "you infiltrate this group, you infiltrate the other" rather than "let's all get down there and see if anyone survived so we can help" then they're morally ambiguous to say the least. It doesn't matter what their "secrets" might be, they have food, tools, and contact with the outside world (at least in some way).

Good people help others in trouble, they don't investigate them and make lists of their names. Even if they had never killed or kidnapped a single survivor of the crash, they're not good guys. I for one am very interested in learning exactly what the Others' definition of "Good" is.


Two posts where I find myself in complete agreement!

Colleen was caught in the act of breaking into an occupied boat and faced an armed occupant. She was willing to say anything it took to defuse the situation and to avoid being shot. I place no weight on her disclaimer - the Other's are the agressors and without their actions/inactions the Lostees would not have killed anyone and might even have become willing members of the Others community or at least in lived in a state of peaceful co-occupation of the island. The Other's are persuing ulterior goals that harm the Lostees.

What a great thread! You know, with what little we know of The Others, none of their actions make any sense at this point. However, one thing to consider is that as militant as they come across, they must have a reason to behave that way. I mean, it seems to almost be their way of life. But since our Lostees are relatively new to the island, and there's no evidence of other mass "invasions" other than flight 815, the only thing I can think of is that there is another enemy out there.

i think the predetermination theme is still there and going strong, even though the others didn't predetermine it... locke didn't say "The others brought us here" he said "The island brought us here"
100%
oh, and PS: the others are evil

i think the predetermination theme is still there and going strong, even though the others didn't predetermine it... locke didn't say "The others brought us here" he said "The island brought us here"
100%
oh, and PS: the others are evil


And who says Locke is the psychic knower of all?

well locke is definitely not the psychic knower of all, seeing as how he was very very wrong (at least we think this now) about the button. but i used it as an example that just because one group of people didn't predetermine anything, it doesn't mean that something else couldn't be doing it. i think we give the others way too much credit for things and we should separate them from our thoughts about the island and even dharma at this point

I think either:

1.) The Others are there to train, condition, and preserve other humans in preparation for a potential doomsday scenario, isolated away from the rest of the world (after all, Australia is the safest part of the world to be in during a nuclear holocaust). Therefore, they view themselves as the "saviors" of humanity rather than its enemies.

2.) The Others are indeed part of an experiment gone awry (having infiltrated DHARMA), and they have decided that whoever is pulling the strings from the outside world (most likely Widmore/Paik) is the real enemy...and they are gradually recruiting the Losties to help undermine their common enemy, and ultimately, to fight that enemy. In this scenario, the big question would be: if DHARMA was dissolved at some point, then why don't Widmore and Paik send operatives to the island to say, "Okay guys, it's over." UNLESS Widmore/Paik actually want The Others to continue to live in isolation...

What baffles me, and I am starting to think is a key to the entire Others mystery, is why the Others bothered the Losties at all. Here are the Others, living miles away in a practically hidden community, having book club meetings. The plane crashes. Odds are the plane crash survivors would've never found the Others.

Odds are the Losties wouldn't have found them? I would argue the exact opposite. What is the likelihood that the Losties wouldn't have ventured all over the island at some point? Especially when you consider the existence of signs of civilization that is the hatches?

I personally think that the others (these others;)) are good. They may be a bit shady, but they likely have a big reason to do so, one of which we're soon to find out.


I don't know why this is so hard to understand from a plot perspective and why people insist on suggesting the Others could be "good" in any sense of the word. I think it is safe to make the following statements:

1) The Others have their own agenda driven by who knows what.

2) They are willing to protect that agenda at all costs by any means necessary--even killing any Losties that threaten learning too much.

3) Truth is a very abstract idea to the Others.

4) Human life is a means to an end.


I'm not sure where anyone expects "good" or "ethical" behavior to fit in there, but I don't see it.

we should be also looking at what else colleen said when sun asked to be let go."its not my choice to make".as in she has orders and she has to do what she has to do, no questions asked. The others are just following orders, maybe even for their safety, theres still alot of things that havent been answered about the others.Until i see them kill sceve or hang charlie, im still convinced they didnt do it and if they did it was because maybe one of their own has gone rogue or they were told to do and have to listen to their leader.
some examples of things that happened we dont know why or that makes us question whos the good guys.

Michael killed ana and libby, was he told to? no it was his choice. he did it cuz of fear and same time love for his son.does it make him evil or just scared.

did charlie really have to kill ethan, plenty of losties with weapons who had him where they wantd. and ethan came alone and unarmed.ethan was prob scared cuz someone threatened him if he didnt get claire.
they could knocked claire out and just taken the baby out at any moment and kille her, instead gave her a story about what they were doing and took their time before they were gona her baby out.
goodwin killed nathan prob just out of fear if he failed his mission, ben would do something to him.
sayid has tortured sawyer. does that make sayid evil?
ana had sayid tied up because of fear.
ana killed godwin as well oout of fear.
whats not to say the others are doing things out of fear.

i just see the others on a mission that they have no choice in completing because they are being told by a higher power to do it.
As well as that they couldnt help our losties,because if the island is really hidden like weve been told it is, since even ben himself said ,"even god cant see this place". then why would they help our losties get off the island and tell the whole world about the mysterous island they found.Its hidden for a reason.
And once again producers have said its us vs them, but whos us and whos them. as in whos the good guy and whos the bad guys.

ethan admitted to killing steve. how would letting nathan live make goodwin's mission fail? it wouldn't, but he killed him. they were going to kill claire, which is why alex intervened. they kept her drugged up while they were prepping the baby with those shots and things, not because they were being nice to her. they stole walt viciously and blew up their raft...

ethan admitted to killing steve. how would letting nathan live make goodwin's mission fail? it wouldn't, but he killed him. they were going to kill claire, which is why alex intervened. they kept her drugged up while they were prepping the baby with those shots and things, not because they were being nice to her. they stole walt viciously and blew up their raft...


when did ethan ever admit to killing sceve, next time we saw him after sceve died he was shot like 5 times and didnt really gets to say anything.
goodwin told ana that he had to because once ana would start cutting off his fingers like she said. so goodwin was scared she would finally start believein nathans word and figure out who goodwin was.
Claire was there for 2 weeks and she was drugged up, whats not to say alot of the stuff was all in her head. Last time i checked whn people are that drugged up as she was, its very hard to remember things as good as she did.

it's when he meets up with charlie again isn't it? he's like "i'll do it again and again and you'll be the last one" or something along those lines... i could be wrong

goodwin told nathan that she was going to get violent and said not to return. he could have let him go.

even if claire couldn't remember properly, alex freed her because she was going to be killed... at least that's what alex said, she could be lying.

ethan admitted to killing steve.

To quote Hurley, "Dude, that was Scott" ;)

And not only was he killed but according to Kate, both his arms were broken as well as all the bones in his hands. To me that sounds like something a mafia button guy would do. Even if Ethan was being coerced, I don't think he would have been that brutal.

Anyway you slice it, the "others" have little to no regard for human life other than their own. They see the Losties as either resources to be used or as obstacles to be dispensed with. This I think fits in nicely to the theory the others are trying to achieve a kind of utopia on the island. Utopianism has at its core a sense of utilitarianism when it comes to human beings.

I keep viewing it through the prism of B.F. Skinner and his "Walden Two" idea of utopia. They want children so that they can be raised using operant conditioning (similar to the cage Sawyer is in but a bit more subtle I imagine). I suppose all of the trials and tribulations the others are putting the Losties through could also be some attempt at behavioral modification as well.

They very well may think they are not the enemy but they are operating on a completely different ethos from us and the Losties.

it's when he meets up with charlie again isn't it? he's like "i'll do it again and again and you'll be the last one" or something along those lines... i could be wrong

goodwin told nathan that she was going to get violent and said not to return. he could have let him go.

even if claire couldn't remember properly, alex freed her because she was going to be killed... at least that's what alex said, she could be lying.

Im not home s cant look at the dvd, but i think he just threatens charlie and says that if he"charlie" doesnt return claire to him each day he will kill one of the losties for each day that goes by and then when charlie gets back to camp he tells jack and they have people watching the jungle for ethanin case he shows up to kill them and then thats when someone yells and they run to see sceve dead.but by charlies look on his face i wouldnt be suprised if he did it.he could have been pissed since claire couldnt remember charlie and that no one was looking for ethan,which is why he killed him when they caught him.

Nathan prob went rogue since ben it was said to ana that goodwin convinced the others to let ana be on the good listen(think goodwin said it or ben said it to her when he attacked her)becasue the others didnt want her, but you could tell he liked her and didnt want her to do somethin like cutting fingers off cuz the others wouldnt want her.

I think alex may not have been lying because she asked micheal if claire was ok, but still something fishy about them just taking the baby and killing her. they took alex from her mother but yet let her live. danielle was prob drugged up and thougt she killed her crew, hallucinating. and they prob told alex her mother died when she was born. just dont c why let danielle live n yet kill claire.

I think the one thing that should be clear to everyone watching the show:

Regardless of how "good" the Others think they are, they met with the Losties through total deceit, kidnapped Claire and attempted to kill Charlie.

Yes, Ana Lucia was bloodthirsty and inexcusable. Yes, Charlie killed Ethan. But if you step back for a second you can come up with at least 4 or 5 alternate plans for ways the Others could have kept the Losties at bay, including having people take them on a boat, home to get them off the island they wanted to protect. If they had Dharma resources it could have been done with the smokescreen of, oh yeah, we're the coast guard of some country and no one would have known. No, the Others are the enemy because they have manipulative reasons for doing what they're doing and sometimes it's too late to change.

Don
100%
To quote Hurley, "Dude, that was Scott" ;)

And not only was he killed but according to Kate, both his arms were broken as well as all the bones in his hands. To me that sounds like something a mafia button guy would do. Even if Ethan was being coerced, I don't think he would have been that brutal.
....

Right, and that brutality (and strength) makes me think there's no way around it not being committed by the others.

Don

they let danielle live because alex had already been born. they didn't have to surgically remove a baby like they were going to do with claire and aaron

Someone kidnapped (and possibly murdered) tail section survivors (but why not Fuselage survivors?).

Someone kidnapped the tail section survivors but probably it was not the Others. Benry told Ethan and Goodwin to make lists and come back in three days. I think whoever attacked the Tailies camp that first night was a different group from the island. My guess is Nathan was a spy from the attacker's group (bad ones) and Goodwin knew it. I think the "bad ones" are scruffy and that's why the Others dress scruffily when travelling. Not to confuse the Losties, but to blend with the "bad ones" so they won't be attacked. I think the "bad ones" are the people Kelvin referred to as "hostiles". The Others didn't know about Desmond, or the boat, or the Swan Hatch, so probably didn't know about Kelvin either. Why weren't the Fusies attacked? I would say because the "monster" is protecting that end of the island.

Others infiltrated the Losties camps and pretended to be survivors, gathering information on the Losties to be used to hurt/manipulate them at a later time.

We know the Others infiltrated to gather information. We do not know that they wanted the information in order to hurt/manipulate them.

But it is interesting when you think about that "threat" in light of what happened to Ana Lucia. "Henry" attacked her...and his line right before he attacked was "you killed two of us." He never attempted to go after Sayid, Locke, or Jack.


Eko is the only one who doesn't fit the bill. He killed two of them on the first night with his bare hands,

Henry may well have been talking to Ana Lucia about Goodwin and Ethan and using the word "you" collectively meaning the entire Lostie group. He may not have known about the "bad ones" she killed or cared. They weren't part of "us". Eko essentially apologized for killing. Again, Benry may have been thinking of Goodwin and Ethan and not the people Eko really killed. The difference between Ana and Eko is that Eko had remorse.

if what you are doing is so important, then why not just tell the people you need for some reason, what is going on

Because they don't trust them. I believe that the Losties have been Dharma subjects all their lives. That's why they keep showing up in each other's flashbacks and why the same people keep showing up to influence the course of events in their lives. The Others somewhere along the line, split from or came into conflict with the Dharma people or perhaps are Dharma subjects themselves that were kept behind for study rather than sent out into the world. At any rate, it seems to me that the lists and blood tests and all, are an attempt to identify who is who and having done that, they then need to determine how deeply indoctrinated in Dharma the Losties actually are.

I have posted elsewhere that the Others led by Ben are not good, and no amount of justification can explain their actions.

That being said, I firmly believe there are two groups of Others, and that they are opposed to each other. I think there is an ongoing rivalry between the two, and they are both on the lookout for potential new recruits. Like Mona Murray said in her post, maybe a lot of what we contribute to 'our' Others was really the work of the other Others. In times of war, in hostile territory, trust would be a hard thing to come by, hence all the 'tests' Ben keeps putting the Losties through. Just something to think about! :undecide:

Cool thread, as usual.

The Branch Davidians thought they were the good guys.

Jim Jones's people believed in him enough to drink the Kool-aid, at there place in Guyana, which looks like the Other's little colony.

The Others, under Ben's direction, have a game and from their actions it's a game they've played before in the past with anybody unfortunate enough to end up on the island (Henry Gale, ballonist).

The one factor that they cannot control is the Island itself, which is true unknown variable in our little story.