It was his idea to giver her the money. The first rule of conning, right?

I think it was a con. I think that was the parallel with the Benry storyline. Conning the con man.

I wouldn't be the least bit surprised.

I don't think so.... I believe his daughter is real and it was really sweet of him of setting up a bank account for her. And I don't know how Cassidy would know about the authority plans to get the money back. Has to be a secret for it to work no?

Yeah, I started to think that she and the warden were in on it together.

Although... it did seem like maybe Sawyer is sterile or something. He doesn't think the child is his. So maybe he really did love Cassidy (i.e. let himself get attached to her) and is just giving her what he owes from his con of her?

Absolutely. Cassidy conned the conman.
Although... it did seem like maybe Sawyer is sterile or something. He doesn't think the child is his. So maybe he really did love Cassidy (i.e. let himself get attached to her) and is just giving her what he owes from his con of her?Agreed, it is possible that he knew that it was a con but went along with it so that he could get out of jail.

He didn't care. He was feeling guilty about conning her in the Long Con. He felt he owedd her. Besides he told her he loved her.

Ack! It didn't even occur to me that she was conning him! I'm so dumb!

Yeah, I guess she might have been. I mean, I was saying that it was totally obvious that Munsen was being conned by Sawyer, because he was conned into asking Sawyer to do what Sawyer wanted. So I'm not sure how I didn't see what Cassidy was doing (or might have been doing).

Yeah, I started to think that she and the warden were in on it together.

Although... it did seem like maybe Sawyer is sterile or something. He doesn't think the child is his. So maybe he really did love Cassidy (i.e. let himself get attached to her) and is just giving her what he owes from his con of her?

Yeah, maybe they were in on it together.... I think if she was conning him, that he knew it. He's too smart for that.

Although... maybe he's not. Ben conned him, right? :confused:

Yeah, maybe they were in on it together.... I think if she was conning him, that he knew it. He's too smart for that.I don't think that they were in on it together, but he may have let her get away with it because he knew that it would get him out of jail and relieve his guilt.

I think it's highly possible that she was conning him to get back at him for what he did to her. I'm sure in six months she could have seen that he has a soft spot for children and figured out that would be the best way to push his buttons. Supplying a photograph and a name isn't very solid evidence, IMO.

it did seem like maybe Sawyer is sterile or something
I've read that comment in another thread and I can't buy into that. I think Sawyer doesn't believe that he deserves children or is capable of loving one so therefore he claimed the child wasn't his to get Cassidy and Clementine out of his life forever.

He didn't care. He was feeling guilty about conning her in the Long Con. He felt he owedd her. Besides he told her he loved her.

I don't think that they were in on it together, but he may have let her get away with it because he knew that it would get him out of jail and relieve his guilt.

I thought from the look on his face as he was walking back to his cell, that he believed her. I also think she might have been conning him but all he had to do was do the math - unless it was a really long con....

I'd like to think that he isn't sterile... BUT if it turns out that he is, and he knew there was no way she could be his daughter... then we're starting to see a pattern here, both Sawyer and Jin would be unable to father children, and the main doctor of the Others is a fertility doctor, hmm...

i think its a great theory that she conned him, but id like to think of sawyer as a father.

I think it's highly possible that she was conning him to get back at him for what he did to her. I'm sure in six months she could have seen that he has a soft spot for children and figured out that would be the best way to push his buttons. Supplying a photograph and a name isn't very solid evidence, IMO.


I didn't really think about Cassidy conning Sawyer until Benry told him that they only placed doubt in his heart. Like you said, Sawyer was with Cassidy for six months, I'm sure she learned a lot of things about him he didn't realize he was telling...for instance, a soft spot for kids. She turned him in, and despite the fact that she probably did love him, she may have been looking for some revenge herself. He did teach her how to con, and it's possible with pressing charges, she struck a deal with the feds to get her money back.

Whether Sawyer has a daughter out there somewhere or not, doesn't matter. In essence, Cassidy got her money back. She conned the con man, and the feds probably set him all along knowing he'd gain that guys trust and tell them where the money was hidden.

Sure were a lot of cons being ran in this episode. Excellent! :biggrin:

I agree with Darbi. There were a lot of con's in this episode so that made me look for con's in Sawyers flashback as well. What I'm wondering is how many other people were in on Cassidy's con.

Maybe we should start a Lost drinking game:

take a sip everytime you suspect a con
take a sip everytime Sawyer takes a punch
take a sip everytime Charlie gets close to dying
tale a sip everytime Jack cries
drink the whole bottle if you see the losties talk to each other about the island mysteries.

Oh, please, it was a TOTAL con!! First of all, Cassidy was just as into conning as Sawyer was. She got off on it and she worked hard at learning it. And now, after Sawyer got the drop on her, Cassidy shows up at the prison, having been conned out of some major money and angry enough to send him to prison, and says "Look, honey, here's your baby girl! Ain't she sweet? All I want is for maybe you to write her a letter sometime. :angelnot: " What woman would want the man who had duped her and then knocked her up to play daddy to their kid? Also, you'd think she'd be so angry if that did happen that she would have said something more along the line of "That's right, dude, can't con your way outta this one! Your a** is MINE now! For the next 18 years I get 20% of every con you bring in for child support!! HA HA HA!!! :evil: "

My guess is that the next Sawyer FB will have him show up at her house in Albuquerque bearing teddy bears and barbie dolls only to have Cassidy laugh in his face and say "Thanks for the nice fat bank account, babe! Did I forget to mention that my first name is really Clementine? That was a picture of my lover's niece! HA HA HA!! The only way to get con man's respect is to con him! :twisted: " Sawyer then turns and walks away, more bitter than ever.

I totally believed it hook, line and sinker the first time I watched the episode and then when I saw it again and Sawyer's speech to Costanza about the Warden using the wife to turn against him really foreshadowed the concept that Sawyer's mark turned him. There's nothing in that baby photo that explains anything.

Don

But how would Cassidy know about the 10 million dollars?

Of course Sawyer is the real father of Clementine. Women never, ever lie about who the real father of their babies are. :rolleyes:

But how would Cassidy know about the 10 million dollars?By working with the warden. Perhaps the warden felt better if Cassidy got the money, rather than letting one of his prisoners have it. He, too, wanted to con the conman.

I said this in the Sawyer section...but I'm lazy...so I'm repeating it here...

I don't think she was conning him. Because I think it should have been hinted at more from a writing perspective if it were true. The flashbacks usually have a 'revelation'...which allows us to understand why characters are behaving the way they are on the island. The revelation in this flasbhack was not so much that Sawyer had a daugther...but that he took a commisson from a con and set her up financially. It shows us that Sawyer's "Every man for himself" mantra...is not really the truth. He is a selfish person at times...but when he cares about someone...he'll put their needs above his own...make sacrifices. Which is exactly what he was doing for Kate by keeping her in the dark about what he thought Benry and friends had done to his heart. Both plot-lines...past and present were about a breakdown of the "every man for himself" theme. The flashback involved him giving up his money to a daugther...he didn't want to ever know he cared about her. And the island story involved him trying to get Kate so run away and save herself...leaving him behind...never telling her why. The parallels there make complete sense.

If in fact Cassidy was conning him...THAT would have been the revelation...and it would have had to match up with the island story somehow. They didn't give us any hints as to whether or not that was the case...which isn't the norm with flashbacks. We usually find out what is going on...and it mimics what is happening on the island.

I could be wrong...but don't think that was the point of the episode. Yes, Sawyer was being conned by Benry, but the reason that occured was to prove that he reacted most to them threatening Kate. To prove that he's kind of a fraud when it comes to "Every man for himself

Sidenote: Every time someone has been conned or messed with, etc...they've revealed that at the end of the flashback...or hinted at it VERY heavily. It's happened with Locke, Boone, Sawyer, Kate, etc. They've never just played out a flashback to it's conclusion...then revealed in another one that it was all bogus. I think that's pushing the "gotcha" button too far.

To take the conning a con man one step further, I always thought that in "The Long Con" that Cassidy was actually setting up Sawyer for something (her "I want to be a con artist too" seemed too pat for my taste), but there was no payoff during that episode. Is it possible the entire thing was a scheme from beginning to end, with Cassidy and the warden and Gordy (Sawer's "mentor") conning Sawyer so that he ended up in prison and could go after the big score for them? I think there are some real holes in this theory (probably the timing wouldn't work), but it would really be a "long con"!

Cassidy and Clementines even sound like names made up for a con ... maybe someone was a Grateful Dead fan?

i haven't seen anyone else discussing this, but i watched the episode again, and i am inclined to believe there is no clementine (sawyer's daughter). here's why:
the flashbacks always have a connection to the present day story line on the island. in this flashback, sawyer is enlisted into tricking a fellow prisoner by the evil warden, so the warden can get what he wants from the unsuspecting prisoner (money). too bad sawyer is too stupid to see that he is getting conned as well. he tells the fellow prisoner that the warden will first butter him up, then reach out to his wife and use her against him, etc. i think this is exactly what the warden did to sawyer. they reached out to sawyer's ex-girlfriend and got her to con sawyer back. so sawyer gets this prisoner's $10mil and ends up leaving his portion (unknown amount) to a person he doesn't even know exists.
in the present day island scenes, sawyer is again easily conned by the warden (ben) into thinking he has this pacemaker, and if he had half a brain, he's have seen right through it when he pulled off the bandage and there was no mark or nothing. but he was so wrapped up in worrying about kate and the threat ben made against her, that he didn't pay attention to the obvious signs. just like when his ex came and told him about the alleged daughter. it made him stupid and he forgot to be the skeptical con man that he is.
now the real question is which prisoner is ben using to con the others and for what purpose? he said they wanted sawyer's respect. is he going to use sawyer against kate and jack? this may explain the quote in the preview from next episode where pickett (or somebody) says to sawyer that he's only alive because they need him.
so what is it that ben wants from the other losties?

doesn't anyone else think that the daughter was really his and Sawyer reacted in such a way to protect his daughter from having anything to do with Sawyer since Sawyer was beyond redemption. Then, instead of taking the money from something otherwise unrelated, he does a good deed to try to redeem a portion of his soul, putting money in his daughter's name anonymously. This way, his daughter is provided for, he feels better about what he has done to get the money and to other people, and his daughter doesn't have to know anything about how bad her dad was.

I don't think Sawyer doubted the child was his for a minute, his protestations were simply to tell her mom that he wasn't going to have anything to do with the child because a child is something that would tie him down and limit his ability to con.

It was his idea to giver her the money. The first rule of conning, right?

I thought the same thing! Of course I'm suspicious of everything in this show. :biggrin:

I agree with QueenElessar completely.

It wasn't a con, it was to show that he's not only out for himself, even if it's in his own Saywerific sort of way. He wouldn't admit to the baby, but that didn't stop him from trying to protect her with the money, just like he didn't tell Kate that he was trying to protect her.

I think the baby scene was just to reinforce that he's tough on the outside, but his bark is tougher than his bite. Or whatever that saying is.

I agree with QueenElessar completely.

It wasn't a con, it was to show that he's not only out for himself, even if it's in his own Saywerific sort of way. He wouldn't admit to the baby, but that didn't stop him from trying to protect her with the money, just like he didn't tell Kate that he was trying to protect her.

I think the baby scene was just to reinforce that he's tough on the outside, but his bark is tougher than his bite. Or whatever that saying is.

I really like the idea that Sawyer was thinking of someone other than himself for once although I really think he was being conned. But that doesn't diminish the significance of what he did. What matters is that he believed Clementine was his and put her before himself.

Well good thing Sawyer put the money under his daughters name. You can never really con a con man.

She isn't conning Sawyer, that would be the most cheapest and obvious way to do a con.

But i do bet we will meet Sawyers daughter at some point of the serie.

I think it was pretty obvious she was conning him but he was aware of it. Just before she came to see her he was explaining that the warden would first try and break you with the wife and then right after that she shows up with the picture. Sawyer allowed the con to go through with the warden so he could be free and to relieve himself of guilt. I think that is the parallel to the Island. He sort of allowed himself to be conned by Ben and ultimatley gained some knowledge and understanding of the way the Others work.

Another thought: how do we know the "Feds" weren't just a gang of conmen that the warden hired for the purpose of getting the 10 mil? I also suspect that "Clementine" is Cassidy's real first name.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Sawyer didn't always practice safe sex with Cassidy. He knew that. He knew Clementine could be his daughter. The writers wanted us to know that despite what he said he has done something good in his life. No con here. No double cross.

He screwed over the corrupt warden, he ratted out a fellow inmate, he got his sentence commuted, he learned he had a daughter and he did something right--all in the same episode. That's it.