It wouldn't be a bad idea to cool the debate. I find the poll here http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=64460 very interesting. While most ppl think she chose Sawyer, a significant (almost half) don't. So, both arguments are credible and if we are supposed to be convinced of either, TPTB didn't pull it off.

Kate is obviously not a Corellian princess with a twin brother trying to save the galaxy. :rolleyes:

But Leia is a rebel, going against authority enough that she's essentially seen as a criminal of the Empire, a fugitive. She's a spunky, compassionate and brave woman who constantly challenged Han to get off his EMFH tush and do something worthwhile. She resisted his advances for ages. Even did the same thing as Kate and kissed one guy to try to prove to herself that she didn't have any feelings for the scruffy looking nerfherder. Look how well that turned out. :rolleyes:

When people bring up the Leia/Han/Luke parallels, it's because their interrelational dynamic is superficially very similar. I agree that they are not a perfect match, but then again we aren't watching Lost Wars: The Others Strike Back, now are we? :biggrin:

Kate loves both Jack and Sawyer. I do not think she can choose between the two. Jack is what she want, he can offer her the life she always wanted. But Sawyer is what she is. Kate can be her true self around Sawyer. Sawyer will never make her feel bad about her past, nor do he question it like Jack tends to do.


Everyone wants to know , who do Kate love? but I want to ask the question, who truely loves Kate the most? Jack, or Sawyer?

we aren't watching Lost Wars: The Others Strike Back, now are we? :biggrin: No.... we're not.

It wouldn't be a bad idea to cool the debate. I find the poll here http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=64460 very interesting. While most ppl think she chose Sawyer, a significant (almost half) don't. So, both arguments are credible and if we are supposed to be convinced of either, TPTB didn't pull it off.

I find that very interesting too. More than half think her choice wasn't definitive or she chose Jack (if you combine those two options together) and I don't for one minute believe those people are all Jaters. If that were the case, then everyone who voted Sawyer, are all Skaters.

The Lost triangle of Sawyer/Kate/Jack has always reminded me more of Rhett/Scarlet/Ashley in Gone With The Wind much more than Han/Leia/Luke in Starwars, and Kate's flashbacks in *I Do* were a perfect illustration of how like Scarlet she really is.

Like Scarlet, Kate is the bad girl who desperately thinks she wants to be good, when in reality what she wants is to be seen as good by others. She is fiercely jealous of "normal" people who live ordinary lives and are respected by their neighbors. She sees herself as damaged and she mistakenly sees them as whole people. She has no idea that most of those "normal" people are actually not that different. They just manage to hide their imperfections and perpetrate the facade they live in.

Kate, like Scarlet, can't do that. It's not in her nature to be false for long enough at a time to live her life in a facade. She sees this as a weakness in herself and she beats herself up about it constantly. She doesn't get it. She doesn't understand that, if only she would allow herself, she doesn't need the facade to be happy. That if she would just give up her need to be one of "the Jones'" she could be happy.

She wanted Tom and his "Jones" life, butshe couldn't have it. She wanted Kevin, or did she? Was she really marrying him or was she marrying his life? The life she wanted. The normal life.

Then she crashes on an island and immediately she falls back into the same pattern. Jack represents everything good to her. But does she really love him or has she simply smashed him into her neat idea of perfection she fell in love with years ago and is still searching for?

Kate doesn't do "taco night". Can you really see her in the real world as a doctor's wife?

IMO, the only way to realistically want Kate and Jack together, is to want them to never be rescued from the island, because that's the only way they could possibly live happily ever after.

Consider this exchange from Gone With The Wind ...

Rhett- You know, l'm sorry for you and Scarlett.

Scarlet- Sorry for me?

Rhett- Yes, sorry for you because you're throwing away happiness with both hands and reaching out for something that will never make you happy.

Scarlet- l don't know what you're talking about.

Rhett- lf you were free and Miss Melly were dead and you had your precious, honorable Ashley, do you think you'd be happy with him? You'd never know him, never even understand his mind any more than you understand anything except money.

Eliminate the reference to Melanie and replace the word "money" with *running* and that exact exchange could realistically take place between Sawyer and Kate.

Sawyer sees who she is and he understands her, something Jack could never do.

I find that very interesting too. More than half think her choice wasn't definitive or she chose Jack (if you combine those two options together) and I don't for one minute believe those people are all Jaters. If that were the case, then everyone who voted Sawyer, are all Skaters.


Huh, I am confused. How is 36.53% (combination of Jack/no definite choice) greater than 53.46% (Sawyer)?

It's 46.36% actually. :biggrin: It's still not bigger but its nearly a balance, thats what whispervixen was getting at.

Oh dear, hehe and I was being so careful with the decimals. Hehe. But yeah, my point was to question the 'more than half don't think Kate chose Sawyer' comment *shrug* :biggrin:

And this latest from Damon is interesting, no?

Oh definitely not more than half...now that would be crazy maths. lol

Latest from Damon? More news? Or is it the same letter thing about the 'battle for affections...hasn't won the war' thing?

Yeah that one. Where it says Sawyer won the battle for Kate's affections for now, but he hasn't necessarily won the war. I personally think that just goes to show which way Kate is leaning heavily at present. Of course, it may well change in the future. But yeah, if you believe it's a real bonafide letter, isn't it a confirmation of who Kate romantically loves right now in the story?

Oh definitely not more than half...now that would be crazy maths. lol

Latest from Damon? More news? Or is it the same letter thing about the 'battle for affections...hasn't won the war' thing?

I think so... I don't know what to make of what he said... if it is legitimate, it seems hard to believe that he would be inspiring hope to a crushed fan if there was no hope.

I think so... I don't know what to make of what he said... if it is legitimate, it seems hard to believe that he would be inspiring hope to a crushed fan if there was no hope.

They wrote an episode where Sawyer holds back information in order to keep Kate from losing hope. That shows the act is in their heads. Why wouldn't they do the same thing in real life?

Who knows?

I think we've had too many foilers mess with our heads...now we just don't know what to trust. It's driving people crazy.

I think the triangle still continues.....I wanted Kate and Jack together so bad, but I still feel she doesn't think she's good enough for him.

Sawyer and her have a "connection". She has said it several times in the past two years. I do believe however, he is in love with her. Jack is too, he wouldn't of looked to sad when he saw the monitor. I felt sorry for him.

Friend or lover, she is NOT leaving without either one of them....espically Jack.

Can't wait unitl February!!!!

Cindy

More than half think her choice wasn't definitive or she chose Jack (if you combine those two options together)

When I looked at it, the combined Jack/not definite was 122 and the Sawyer was 140, which doesn't seem to my math that "more than half thought her choice wasn't definite or she chose Jack." And it really isn't fair to put the not definite in with the Jack votes anymore than it would be fair to put them in with the Sawyer votes.

When I looked at it, the combined Jack/not definite was 122 and the Sawyer was 140, which doesn't seem to my math that "more than half thought her choice wasn't definite or she chose Jack." And it really isn't fair to put the not definite in with the Jack votes anymore than it would be fair to put them in with the Sawyer votes.

Yeah I suppose, but I can hardly see many, if any at all, Skaters choosing not definitive.

When I looked at it, the combined Jack/not definite was 122 and the Sawyer was 140, which doesn't seem to my math that "more than half thought her choice wasn't definite or she chose Jack." And it really isn't fair to put the not definite in with the Jack votes anymore than it would be fair to put them in with the Sawyer votes.

I'm replying here since I originally brought up the poll, but I hope it applies. I was making a point that almost half didn't see Sawyer as the definite choice which explains the confusion. Very few people think she chose Jack, that isn't really the debate here, I don't think.
Hope I'm not stepping out of bounds..

Yeah I suppose, but I can hardly see many, if any at all, Skaters choosing not definitive.

I think you'd be surprised at how pragmatic many Skaters are about the choice.

almost half didn't see Sawyer as the definite choice
Absolutely true. But you can't extrapolate that because almost half didn't see Sawyer as the definite choice, that almost half saw Jack as the choice either. Right now a simple majority see Sawyer as the choice with the next largest segment seeing no choice.

Absolutely true. But you can't extrapolate that because almost half didn't see Sawyer as the definite choice, that almost half saw Jack as the choice either. Right now a simple majority see Sawyer as the choice with the next largest segment seeing no choice.

I said, "Very few people think she chose Jack, that isn't really the debate here, I don't think." Hmmmm... I think we're having a lack of communication here.

As morally ambiguous as this show is, I'd say Sawyer and Jack have differences, but theyre pretty even on the morality scale


That's the most amusing thing I've read on these boards for days.

Sorry, but when Jack spends his entire adult life screwing women to con money out of their husbands or when he spends his entire adult life selfishly thinking of no one besides himself and when he spends his entire adult life stealing, cheating, murdering and basically existing by taking what doesn't belong to him please feel free to place the two men on an equal morality scale.

Of course the writers could choose to assassinate Jack's character at any moment, but as he stands right now that statement is absurd and makes me wonder if we've been watching the same Sawyer for 2+ seasons.

Carry on with your debate. :)

That's the most amusing thing I've read on these boards for days.

Sorry, but when Jack spends his entire adult life screwing women to con money out of their husbands or when he spends his entire adult life selfishly thinking of no one besides himself and when he spends his entire adult life stealing, cheating, murdering and basically existing by taking what doesn't belong to him please feel free to place the two men on an equal morality scale.

Of course the writers could choose to assassinate Jack's character at any moment, but as he stands right now that statement is absurd and makes me wonder if we've been watching the same Sawyer for 2+ seasons..

Okay, was that a typo? Am I watching the right Lost? :o

EDIT: I get what you're saying ;)

I'd say Sawyer has grown alot in his character...but he's not on par with Jack.

his entire adult life screwing women to con money out of their husbands


Well, to be very technical here, there were also ATM scams in Vegas, a scam of Holocaust victims, the infamous "Tampa job" and several other things that didn't involve screwing women per se.
But I know what you are saying. LOL

Sheba, I thought your post comparing this triangle to the Rhett/Scarlett/Ashley one in GWTW was terrific. Kate's nowhere near as self-centered and limited as Scarlett. But Scarlett couldn't settle into the conventional role expected of her. And "I Do" does raise the issue about whether Kate, regardless of her feelings, could make a life with someone like Jack. Married to Kevin, Kate looked like a completely different person, wearing clothes that, we know now, she finds restrictive and uncomfortable. I realize that having a baby in her situation was impossible. But the "I don't do taco night!" sounded more heartfelt; perhaps Kate, at bottom, is just not suited for a more conventional life. She had the promise from the Marshal that he wouldn't pursue if she really settled down, and as for the passport? She had enough ID to get a marriage license. She could have come up with a passport. She may have loved Kevin, but perhaps she didn't love her life with him. She never did marry Tom...

And I think "I Do" has a nice visual which suggests this further. The scene with Jack in the tank is quite striking visually, and some see it as the two melting into each other. But what's melting is a pale, partial reflection of the real person, as if that's the most of the one that can ever get on the same side of the glass with the other. The next time we see Kate she's initiating the most intimate contact with a real, live, physical man--a man whose cage she literally has to break into to reach.

And now for the technical portion of our program: the poll on this site, interesting as it is, tells us nothing about what most viewers took away from the program. It tells us only what only a handful of members at this site (265 at last count), who cared enough to visit and then vote, felt. Any argument based on the poll isn't really much stronger than an argument based on one's own impressions. And now I've given you both types of relatively useless arguments, so I'll stop!

I would think that someone who is willing to date and be with someone for God knows how long just to get them to rob a bank for her wouldn't really have too big of a problem with telling some guy she's conning that she loves him if it wern't true. Especially if he were about to die.

And as far as the scene with Jack and Kate, no one is saying that Kate doesn't care for Jack. She hasn't seen him, she has no idea what the Others might have been doing to him, so of course she's glad to see him! Wouldn't anyone be? What slightly distracted me from the look on her face was how Jack asked the questions, she answered, and then begged him to do the surgery. No "What are they doing to you?" or "Guess what happened with some girl with a slingshot today!" just right to the point with "Jack, you have to do it!"

I would HOPE people realize how meaningless the poll here is. The audience is in the 17 millions for this episode. And even on the relatively tiny membership on this site - with multiple new registers just on Nov. 10 (so many!) - you could only get 265 to vote in the thing. It's what's called a "self selected poll" as well, meaning it only reflects the opinion of those who are obsessed enough to care. So it's just for fun - like most of what we do here - like fan letters and media interviews and pretty much everything about Lost except what actually shows up onscreen. That's what matters.

I LOVE that someone came up with the Gone with the Wind comparison because it's perfect. I always hear Kate's apparent fixation on normalcy being hailed as the only good thing she's got in her, and it's such a turn off for me to hear it described as proof of her future. Scarlett O'Hara thought all she wanted was the upright Mr. Perfect also, and he was attracted to her. But the man who really got her motor going and who she really belonged with was the no good charismatic scoundrel...In the end of course, no one ended up wanting Scarlett. She was a perfect example of a female character who was made a fool by a love triangle....Let's hope Kate retains a little more dignity and respect than that!

Simple as it is they have showed in Kate's flashbacks that she is able to say "I love you" pretty easily. If she didn't tell Sawyer she loved him after she slept with him, and couldn't say it even with him on his death bed, then well she probably isn't going to say it. lol Heck she even retracted it when she was forced to say it. I dunno, but I've got a feeling she doesn't LOVE Sawyer, and I think this episode was to give a certain ship a little bit of gratification before it's pulled out from under them. I'm not so much wanting Jack with Kate now. However, Kate and Sawyer have now done too much, too soon and well, you figure the rest out. Kate probably loves Jack as that's what her flashbacks would indicate. Everyone she's ever been in love with has been a good upstanding guy like Jack. You know doctors (Jack,Tom) Police Officer (Kevin) soo I think it stands to good reason that she's in love with the dear old doc and had comfort sex with Sawyer. I'm just not sure I want Kate and Jack together anymore because it (sex) took away the innocense. That's just my opinoin though.

But that's exactly the point. She's always in love with these 'good' guys...and it never works out for her. She tells them she loves them....she probably means it...but she continues to run...or complicate things. She's not happy and settled. Her flashbacks have shown us this.

And the flashbacks are usually the way that TPTB show us the ruts the characters were in in the past. They show us their continued mistakes...their personality flaws...etc. And often times the island scenes are contrasting those...to let us see that the characters are changing (particularly as the seasons progress). Kate said she loved Kevin many times...and then left him. And yet she stayed with Sawyer...even in the face of great danger. Perhaps with Kate, saying "I love you" isn't enough...The words don't mean anything, if they're not backed up by actions...and it seems like Kate was never able to do that. But time her actions showed love...even if she didn't say it. So it gets much more complicated. Personally I think that Kate has been scarred by telling people she loved them, but not being able to commit...or stay in one place. So she is scared to say the words to anyone else because she's afraid she'll back out again...hurt them...not be able to really show love for someone...be loyal.

If Jack is the same type of guy as the guys she's loved in the past...her flashbacks would seem to indicate that he's exactly the type who's not right for her. And I'm not saying that's the case...I'm just saying that to me her flashbacks don't make a good case for Kate settling down with the good guy. But I don't think this one was meant as a comparison to Jack though...I think they were meant to contrast her relationship with Sawyer. The stories were parallel.
100%
It wouldn't be a bad idea to cool the debate. I find the poll here http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=64460 very interesting. While most ppl think she chose Sawyer, a significant (almost half) don't. So, both arguments are credible and if we are supposed to be convinced of either, TPTB didn't pull it off.

Exactly. I believe TPTB wanted people to get the impression that she's with Sawyer...but that the door is still open for the future. And that poll (although obviously a small cross-section of Lost's audience) suggests that people either thought she chose Sawyer or that she hasn't DEFINITIVELY chosen yet. Which means that she hasn't chosen once and for all. And I would actually agree with that on some level. But if you asked how many people think she's chosen Sawyer for the near future...I think you'd get some different responses.

I think the TPTB absolutely intended to leave it a little open ended because they don't want to alienate any of their fans. Kate made a choice...she chose Sawyer...but it doesn't mean it's over. That's the point.

But that's exactly the point. She's always in love with these 'good' guys...and it never works out for her. She tells them she loves them....she probably means it...but she continues to run...or complicate things. She's not happy and settled. Her flashbacks have shown us this.
*de-lurking to touch on a point*

I was thinking about this earlier, and something that sorta ties in with this little tidbit about Kate's character is that, I believe we were allowed to see her actual "moment of realization" that she's fallen in love with Sawyer, and we saw her actually cease fighting her feelings for him. When she kisses him and buries her face against his chest, he asks her "What was that for?" Her reply was a quiet "I don't know", before raising her eyes to his and repeating tearfully "I don't know." In that second admission of "I don't know", it seems like she's saying to him: "I don't know why I kissed you...I don't know why I care. You're everything I've been running from for so long...you embody everything that I thought I didn't want or need. You're not the stereotypical 'good guy' that I've been blindly and pointlessly reaching for and running from my whole life...

...but you're The One."

IMO, you can see that in her eyes as she gazes up at him, the realization and acceptance becomes so clear on her face...and when he reaches for her and pulls her into the kiss, she's completely open to him. No resistance, no regrets. He's what she wants, she now knows and accepts that fact, and she's not running from it. :heart:

ETA: And a quick comparison point between Kate and Sawyer saying "I love you" to other people...I do believe they both meant it, on some level. Kate loved Kevin, but not enough to stop running. Sawyer loved Cassidy, but not enough to stop conning. :shrug:

*dives back into lurk-mode*

Aside from the breeding theory, Herk, what does this have to do with Kate loving Jack?

It has everything to do with Kate loving Jack...It is total evidence that her sex scene has nothing to do with her feelings...It was sex...lusty...sex...

Good job Herk!

I think Kate loves both Jack and Sawyer. It is possible for someone to love two people at once.

We'll have to see how it pans out.

Kate lusts Sawyer...which girl wouldn't!!!!!

All she did was have sex with nhim....sex does not equal love...

Kate loves Jack...

Kate lusts Sawyer...which girl wouldn't!!!!!

All she did was have sex with nhim....sex does not equal love...


Well, Kate's (http://gallery.lost-media.com/albums/ep-caps/season3/3x06-ido/3/normal_ido-cap0706.jpg) face (http://gallery.lost-media.com/albums/ep-caps/season3/3x06-ido/3/normal_ido-cap0700.jpg) in the post-coital cuddling (http://gallery.lost-media.com/albums/ep-caps/season3/3x06-ido/3/normal_ido-cap0697.jpg) scene would seem to suggest otherwise...and if it had been just sex, there would really have been no need for a cuddling scene at all...

...but that's just MO, of course! :smile:

Sawyer may be her McSteamy, but Jack is her McDreamy :mushy:
The last scene with the walkie-talkies said it all, IMO.
I for one don't find it odd for Kate to have sex with Sawyer and ultimately choosing Jack down the road. Why? Because I felt that these last 6 episodes they were forcing the S/K on us, and it made it feel like they gave us too much, too soon. I just can't see them skipping off to camp and living happily ever in their coupledom for the remainder of LOST. And (unfortunately) bouncing between the two guys keeps people interested.
Thing is, I just can't see how some people think that after 2 years of building a relationship between the 2 major characters of a show can really be extinguished in 6 episodes. It doesn't happen on TV in general, and it won't happen on LOST.
I believe they're following a "S/K first, J/K later" storyline. If Kate's choice really was final, they wouldn't have given us the walkie-talkie scene and the no-response-to-the-I-love-you (and of course Ben's little comment to Jack ;)).

Give me steam over a dream any day of the week and twice on Sunday. Steam is real you can touch it, feel it, and it takes your breath away. Dreams fade soon after you wake up.

Give me steam over a dream any day of the week and twice on Sunday. Steam is real you can touch it, feel it, and it takes your breath away. Dreams fade soon after you wake up.

AMEN, and pass the biscuits!! :wub:
100%
Thing is, I just can't see how some people think that after 2 years of building a relationship between the 2 major characters of a show can really be extinguished in 6 episodes. It doesn't happen on TV in general, and it won't happen on LOST.

They haven't extinguished Jack and Kate's relationship. Far from it. They illustrated, in one scene, how it's still very much there. They care for each other (though, IMO, are unbalanced to start a romance), and will continue to do so.

Jack still has her friendship and loyalty. But Sawyer has her heart.

I think Jack and Kate do have a sexless love. It's an important kind of love, it's the kind we have in our families, and maybe the deepest love in all our lives. But it's not a substitute for sexual, romantic love. I think the evidence is there in those pictures, for anyone who wants to understand, that that's the kind of love - and it is love - that Kate now has with Sawyer.

I think Jack and Kate do have a sexless love. It's an important kind of love, it's the kind we have in our families, and maybe the deepest love in all our lives. But it's not a substitute for sexual, romantic love. I think the evidence is there in those pictures, for anyone who wants to understand, that that's the kind of love - and it is love - that Kate now has with Sawyer.

I just don't see any kind of deep bond between Jack and Kate. They know virtually nothing about the other. Even the most basic of couples share basic info. Have you ever been married? What were you doing on the flight? Stuff like that. We've never seen Jack and Kate share those types of convos...versus Kate and Sawyer that know each other's darkest secrets.

Kate and Jack are very superficial...IMO.

Well, Kate's (http://gallery.lost-media.com/albums/ep-caps/season3/3x06-ido/3/normal_ido-cap0706.jpg) face (http://gallery.lost-media.com/albums/ep-caps/season3/3x06-ido/3/normal_ido-cap0700.jpg) in the post-coital cuddling (http://gallery.lost-media.com/albums/ep-caps/season3/3x06-ido/3/normal_ido-cap0697.jpg) scene would seem to suggest otherwise...and if it had been just sex, there would really have been no need for a cuddling scene at all...

...but that's just MO, of course! :smile:

Is that what that look on Kate's face was? All this time I thought she was having a bad case of fishbiscuit heartburn and turns out it's a look of love. Just MO of course. :)

I have no idea who Kate loves.

I just don't see any kind of deep bond between Jack and Kate. They know virtually nothing about the other. Even the most basic of couples share basic info. Have you ever been married? What were you doing on the flight? Stuff like that. We've never seen Jack and Kate share those types of convos...versus Kate and Sawyer that know each other's darkest secrets.

Kate and Jack are very superficial...IMO.

ITA. Perhaps in addition to superficial, too, is idealistic. Each seems to ultimately have an idea about the other that simply isn't realistic, and wouldn't be fair to either of them, if they tried to start a romantic partnership between them. How much do they really know about the other? Jack knows that Kate has killed a man...but he didn't try to find out details, and has been suspicious, untrusting and unaccepting of her at times. He knows nothing of her paternal issues. And early on, Kate put Jack up on a pedestel that he could never possibly live up to (not unlike Sarah had done). She knows nothing of his past disastrous relationship issues, or his issues with his own father and his feelings of "failure" in his father's eyes. They simply haven't shared that with each other.

If they do try and write a Jate romance into the story, later down the road, then I think both characters would need a major overhaul in how they relate to and interact with one another. There is no doubt that they shared a mutual attraction...but could it have possibly manifested into a realistic and equal romance? Jack seems more suited to someone like Juliet...stable, calm, grounded. Kate is wilder...and much more suited to someone like Sawyer.

Birds of a feather, and whatnot...

:twocents:

I think everyone sees what they want to see lol. However if you look in the scrips of the past two season's it's in black and white who the cannon couple is. Too much, too soon with Sawyer and Kate..........besides Sawyer will screw it up anyway. He's not that interesting of a character when he's pining over Kate. I guarantee you a good portion of the audience agrees on that last point at least.

Man, I'll be so glad when *mod edit* when Kate finally tells Jack that she's in love with him. *mod edit* Like KNJ said, it's been Jack and Kate in the scripts all along. They will be together. You can bet on that. *mod edit*

I just don't see any kind of deep bond between Jack and Kate. They know virtually nothing about the other. Even the most basic of couples share basic info. Have you ever been married? What were you doing on the flight? Stuff like that. We've never seen Jack and Kate share those types of convos...versus Kate and Sawyer that know each other's darkest secrets.

Kate and Jack are very superficial...IMO.

Well actually lostrocks you make a great point. I guess I feel like we HAVE to say Kate loves Jack for some reason. But it all stems from the odd definitions of love we end up in discussing this show.We end up discussing whether a man whose about to have his brains blown out into a rain puddle is actually distraught over his girlfriend's hearing another guys voice on the walky talky. It all gets so over the top.

You're right. They never laid out the basis for Jack and Kate having anything other than a superficial connection. And they definitely never developed a sexual connection. However at the end of this episode we clearly saw that Jack was putting himself on the line for Kate...and for Sawyer, as we now know (thanks ABC!). And she is grateful enough and cares enough to not want to abandon him. So that's a kind of love, forged in these survival circumstances, a sexless love closest to a family kind of bond.

There is no doubt that they shared a mutual attraction...but could it have possibly manifested into a realistic and equal romance? Jack seems more suited to someone like Juliet...stable, calm, grounded. Kate is wilder...and much more suited to someone like Sawyer.



Jack and Kate have a wonderful relationship whether it ever turns romantic or not, it's one based on mutual respect, trust, friendship and a strong emotional connection. It's a realtionship that is entirely too mature for Kate to wrap her brain around right now and may never be able to appreciate it for what it is/was. Jack will probably end up being the best friend she'll ever know and a person can never have too many genuine friends.

Kate and Sawyer have a wonderful future together robbing 7-Elevens, having raw sex and doing crappy things to one another when it is personally advantageous to do so. They are definitely birds of feather. JMO

Jandkforever, please keep things civil. Thanks.

I think everyone sees what they want to see lol. However if you look in the scrips of the past two season's it's in black and white who the cannon couple is. Too much, too soon with Sawyer and Kate..........besides Sawyer will screw it up anyway. He's not that interesting of a character when he's pining over Kate. I guarantee you a good portion of the audience agrees on that last point at least.
Not that the scripts should be counted as gospel, but that argument can most definitely apply to either couple, as they were both canon.

Confidence Man:

Kate: Water's cold, huh?

Ouch. But Sawyer GRINS - -

Sawyer: You bet. How 'bout you come a little closer and warm me up?

Okay, she reviles the guy, but damn if there isn't chemistry here. Not that she'd ever cop to it.

Confidence Man:

Kate: He says we have a connection.

And although he's probably not aware of this consciously, Jack might just be a little JEALOUS when he says:

Jack: Do you?

Kate: Please.

And as we can't help but notice this wasn't exactly a denial...
Confidence Man:

Kate approaches him. Squats down on her haunches. Gets close. Looks into his eyes. He looks back.

And here is the first kiss on LOST.

What makes it interesting is that even though it starts out as a chore -- a necessity -- somewhere about three or four seconds in, it becomes something ELSE. And just before it actually goes from something else to REAL...

Kate pulls away.

And we milk this delicious moment afterward for all it's worth. And despite the insanity of the circumstances under which it happened, both of them felt something.
Outlaws:

Sawyer (con't): (shrugs) It's just a boar. (as he goes) Let's get back to camp.

Kate takes this in then walks after him, drawn towards this complicated, troubled soul. Because she is one herself.
These are just a few examples of how they've illustrated a connection between Sawyer and Kate, as far back as Jack and Kate go. The love triangle began in S1...scripts support both couples, both had canon evidence through the first two seasons. With the "resolution of sorts" that we have been given in S3, Skate has now become canon. And though Jate seems to be on the backburner for now, it could, some day down the road, too become canon. :smile:

The friendship and loyalty that Jack and Kate share is perfectly intact, as of the end of episode 6. Whether or not it ever turns romantic...?

We'll see.

ETA: oh, and I thought this was interesting, perhaps in relation to the last episode...

Outlaws:

Kate and Sawyer trudge through the jungle - - Dirty and SWEATY (and on these two, somehow it looks GREAT), BREATHING HARD.
Outlaws:

Kate settles down next to the fire, Sawyer on the opposite side. Two outlaws, camped out under the stars. Hell, if we didn't know any better?

We'd think this was downright romantic.
:biggrin:

Okay, but I don't feel like going and finding all the scrips. lol I don't care enough. You seem to, so when you find all the ones that say Sawyer and Kate have a connection, but not a "deep emotional connection" as Jack and Kate, and some other blah blah blah stuff, then you will see. Remember try to see it all, just not what you want to see. I fear that for some it will be difficult when ahhh nevermind just watch next spring and I guarantee you at least by season four things will be a little different. Not because I want them to be, but hey it's TV, and well Sawyer and Kate don't have much between them but sexual tension, and well............that's gone.

Seriously? I see it like this:

Criminal + Criminal
Doctor + Doctor

Not very original. It's a known fact that opposites attract. I just remember what TPTB had said about the S/K relationship dynamic, how they're both cut from the same cloth, and back in What Kate Did where Kate tells an unconscious Sawyer how he represents everything from her past that she hates. In a S/K relationship, there's nothing to give or take from one another so they could each grow - they're too much alike, IMO. I just fail to see an evolution to their relationship - I just feel like they bring eachother down. I mean, don't get me wrong, I loved Sawyer and Kate's previous interactions. The mild flirting, the friendship dynamic - it was great to watch. But now with the S/K sex, I don't think things are going to be too peachy afterward. It's just how I see it, you know? :)

Sawyer may be her McSteamy, but Jack is her McDreamy :mushy:
The last scene with the walkie-talkies said it all, IMO.
I for one don't find it odd for Kate to have sex with Sawyer and ultimately choosing Jack down the road. Why? Because I felt that these last 6 episodes they were forcing the S/K on us, and it made it feel like they gave us too much, too soon. I just can't see them skipping off to camp and living happily ever in their coupledom for the remainder of LOST. And (unfortunately) bouncing between the two guys keeps people interested.
Thing is, I just can't see how some people think that after 2 years of building a relationship between the 2 major characters of a show can really be extinguished in 6 episodes. It doesn't happen on TV in general, and it won't happen on LOST.
I believe they're following a "S/K first, J/K later" storyline. If Kate's choice really was final, they wouldn't have given us the walkie-talkie scene and the no-response-to-the-I-love-you (and of course Ben's little comment to Jack ;)).
IMO, they started dismantling the intitial Jack/Kate relationship starting with WKD, and from then on they built up the connection that Kate had had with Sawyer from CM onward. Most of Season 2 Jate is about distance and tensions between them. IMO, of course.

Kate loves Sawyer!! Or she needs to make up her mind and choose one!! Little greedy girl!!:kiss: She want them both really!!

Seriously? I see it like this:

Criminal + Criminal
Doctor + Doctor

Not very original. It's a known fact that opposites attract. I just remember what TPTB had said about the S/K relationship dynamic, how they're both cut from the same cloth, and back in What Kate Did where Kate tells an unconscious Sawyer how he represents everything from her past that she hates. In a S/K relationship, there's nothing to give or take from one another so they could each grow - they're too much alike, IMO. I just fail to see an evolution to their relationship - I just feel like they bring eachother down. I mean, don't get me wrong, I loved Sawyer and Kate's previous interactions. The mild flirting, the friendship dynamic - it was great to watch. But now with the S/K sex, I don't think things are going to be too peachy afterward. It's just how I see it, you know? :)


Well, I don't find the hero gets the troubled girl to be too original either. Every pairing has been done before, what's going to make Jack/Kate or Kate/Sawyer original will be how the writers choose to carry out their story. I also don't find Jack and Kate to be opposites. I find Jack and Kate to have more in common than Kate and Sawyer. For example, they both grew up with abusive (emotional) fathers, whose mothers were distant from them. One feels they killed his father, and the other actually did. They were both made to feel that no matter what they did, they were never good enough or didn't measure up to the expectations of their fathers. Yes, Sawyer and Kate do have alot in common and are more than just sexual tension, but I think as far as growing up Kate and Jack are more similar.

Sawyer and Kate are not good for each other though. I mean they don't help each other, or are emotionally there for each other. I just don't see the whole I trust you, love you thing with Kate and Sawyer. I do see it with Jack and Kate. Jack and Kate have been building slowly. I mean in order for the writers to convince me that Kate and Sawyer are so in love and will be just a wonderful couple they need to show that they actually have some sort of moral ground together. It was clear in the last six epi's the two of them were living with very different ways of thinking. I dunno, I do try and see Sawyer/Kate for more than just sexual tension and outcasts, but I haven't seen it yet. Kate is coming into her own, and I think unless Sawyer changes pretty drastically then it's not a romance that will work. Kate has started to see herself differently and working as a team.......I dunno, I'm sure things can change.

Jack and Kate have a wonderful relationship whether it ever turns romantic or not, it's one based on mutual respect, trust, friendship and a strong emotional connection. It's a realtionship that is entirely too mature for Kate to wrap her brain around right now and may never be able to appreciate it for what it is/was. Jack will probably end up being the best friend she'll ever know and a person can never have too many genuine friends.

Kate and Sawyer have a wonderful future together robbing 7-Elevens, having raw sex and doing crappy things to one another when it is personally advantageous to do so. They are definitely birds of feather. JMO

I actually agree that the relationship between Jack and Kate is fairly strong. It would be strange if those experiences in the first few days (sewing him up, seeing the pilot eaten by the monster) didn't forge a bond. But it's hard to say that it's built on mutual respect or trust. In I Do, Jack quickly assumes that Kate's made some sort of deal with the Others, selling him out. Jack's rarely shown much respect for Kate's abilities. Despite initially (and generously) indicating no desire to know about her past, he's clearly been angry that she hasn't told him more ("Give me something real!" in All the Best Cowboys), though he hasn't reciprocated himself.

I know the presumption is that Kate can only grow if she's with Jack. I don't see why that's the only way for her to progress. Both Sawyer and Kate have good instincts and, I think, fundamentally good natures; they've been warped by their experiences, Sawyer far more than Kate. (Kate at least had some attention and direction from Army Dad while growing up, a good role model to follow; I get the impression that, after his parents died, Sawyer was rootless.) Neither has ever encouraged the other to do anything wrong or harmful on the island; the worst Sawyer's ever done was encourage Kate to leave off the fruit-picking to frolic at the waterfall. Both have done bad things on the island (Kate poisoning Michael, Sawyer taking the guns), but both acted independently and against the other in doing so. Perhaps it's overly romantic to think that for each, finding a real love than doesn't require lies, evasions, or masquerades will help each overcome the effects of bad education and let the good nature underneath come forward. I think we've seen some of that in this mini-season.

ETA:
KNJ, I think that's what we were supposed to see in this mini-season. Sawyer talked "Every Man for Himself," but he never put his own interests first; at worst he was planning on taking Kate with him, and at best he was urging Kate to go even though that would probably lessen his own chance of escape. And the idea that Sawyer and Kate function well as a team was established at least as early in LT,DA, when Kate turns to Sawyer for help in taking down their trackers.

All things considered Jack needs to Man up and Bow out Gracefully...

He couldn’t do it with Sara... I'm hoping he learned from his mistake.

Let Sawyer and Kate ride off into the sunset ... and lets all move on.

I for one am looking forward to seeing Jacks new life beyond the triangle mess.

People are missing the point that Kate already grew...through caring about Sawyer and putting all she had into trying to save him. She had no one to help her. She did it on her own. No mentor. Having love for another person is redemptive, and what Kate is feeling for Sawyer is making her find strength within. She doesn't need Jack for that. She has it in herself...and it's the love for Sawyer, not Jack, that is drawing it out of her. She's acting selflessly for another human being, who she loves.

That's a GOOD thing. It's a growth thing for Kate's character. I think all this talk about Sawyer being bad for Kate and Kate can only grow through Jack and all that...I think while everyone was arguing about it, all those ideas became irrelevant. Sawyer has already been good for Kate. Kate has already grown through loving Sawyer. In this story, it's not all about the perfect man who fixes the woman. In this story, the man NEEDS the woman also. It's a two way street.

As for opposites attracting, I think people should revisit that cliche. I've worked on a number of divorce situations. Let me tell you. Maybe sometimes opposites attract, but far more often they want to KILL each other! The only opposites that invariably attract are the kind Kate and Sawyer already are - man and woman.

Sawyer and Kate are not good for each other though. I mean they don't help each other, or are emotionally there for each other. I just don't see the whole I trust you, love you thing with Kate and Sawyer. I do see it with Jack and Kate. Jack and Kate have been building slowly. I mean in order for the writers to convince me that Kate and Sawyer are so in love and will be just a wonderful couple they need to show that they actually have some sort of moral ground together. It was clear in the last six epi's the two of them were living with very different ways of thinking. I dunno, I do try and see Sawyer/Kate for more than just sexual tension and outcasts, but I haven't seen it yet. Kate is coming into her own, and I think unless Sawyer changes pretty drastically then it's not a romance that will work. Kate has started to see herself differently and working as a team.......I dunno, I'm sure things can change.

This is soo true. Sawyer did not fight for Kate or give her any hope. Jack is the one who does...
100%
People are missing the point that Kate already grew...through caring about Sawyer and putting all she had into trying to save him. She had no one to help her. She did it on her own. No mentor. Having love for another person is redemptive, and what Kate is feeling for Sawyer is making her find strength within. She doesn't need Jack for that. She has it in herself...and it's the love for Sawyer, not Jack, that is drawing it out of her. She's acting selflessly for another human being, who she loves.

It's a growth thing for Kate's character. I think all this talk about Sawyer being bad for Kate and Kate can only grow through Jack and all that...I think while everyone was arguing about it, all those ideas became irrelevant. Sawyer has already been good for Kate. Kate has already grown through loving Sawyer. In this story, it's not all about the perfect man who fixes the woman. In this story, the man NEEDS the woman also. It's a two way street.


Jack's love is causing her to change and find the strength within herself. She is trying to be the same way with Sawyer, as she identifies strongly with Sawyer, but it is Jack who is the one who has shown her this.

Honest to God, I don't think there is a right couple or a wrong couple, a stronger couple or a weaker couple etc. That's what's so fun with Jate & Skate, its entirely subjective. It's what feels right to you and what speaks to you personally. Some people see their ideal couple in one pair, and others see it in the other.
And we all have to keep in mind that TPTB are in the exact same situation. They are Jaters AND Skaters. There are people who like one ship better than the other. I honestly think they're split right in the middle as well, which is why neither ship will ever sink, IMO. Damon did say, "You can't have Jate without Skate and Skate without Jate".
So there's no really any point in arguing about it. "I Do" was written in a way that spoke to both parties, and left a lot open to interpretation, IMO. They gave the Skaters what they wanted and gave the Jaters hope. Let's also keep in mind that this is LOST; 180 degree turnarounds are a common phenomenon on this show. Nothing should surprise us anymore ;)

Jack's love is causing her to change and find the strength within herself. She is trying to be the same way with Sawyer, as she identifies strongly with Sawyer, but it is Jack who is the one who has shown her this.

This is incredibly dismissive of Kate. Jack's "love" has NOT been a part of this story so far. She has survived this and helped Sawyer survive it on her own. She may have learned some lessons from him and be using them - and that's good, that's what all of us do from teachers and parents - but to say it's "Jack's love" that gave her this strength is to put something into the story that the writers did not write.

The point is love is not a magical game where one perfect person gifts the lesser being with power and strength and wisdom. Love is an ACTION. And Kate's love for Sawyer, her desperate need to save Sawyer, is where her strength has come from. It isn't enough. Without Jack's plan, Sawyer would die, and Jack is going to be the key that gets the lovers free. But Kate found her strength INSIDE HERSELF. By herself. Motivated by the need to save the man she loved.

This mini arc was all about Kate getting stronger. And Jack was nowhere to be found until the very last seconds. She may still need him as the story's white knight, but she doesn't need him to be a better person.

It wasn't Jack's love that taught Kate to pull that Australian farmer out of the burning truck, thus ruining her chances to escape from the marshal. She hadn't met Jack at that point. I wish the arguments for a Jack-Kate romance didn't tend to rest on the presumption that Kate is a morally stunted person who can grow only under the light of Jack. Shouldn't both people bring something to the relationship? If moral tuition is the basis of the Jack-Kate relationship, what is Kate bringing to Jack other than her own inferiority? If that's all Kate is, why would anyone who cares about Jack want that burden on his back? Kate's a grown woman. Why isn't her moral improvement her own responsibility?

Sawyer has fought for Kate and has brought her hope. Sawyer took a taser shot for her question back in TGB; he instigated a fight, took a few punches, and another taser shot testing their (their, not just his) escape chances. When she first appeared in ATOTC, obviously shaken, he comforted her with a little banter and the only food he had to offer. When she wept after Libby's death it was Sawyer's arms. Sawyer consoled her after she was taken hostage in THP. And Sawyer kept the secret of what had been done to him in EMFH, and thus alienated himself from the one sort of comfort he had--Kate--in order to keep her believing that she might be able to escape.

I don't mean to argue that only the Sawyer-Kate relationship was built up over the first two seasons; obviously both relationships were, or it wouldn't be called a triangle. Kate has emotional ties to both men. But those ties are different, and Sawyer does legitimately have things to offer Kate that Jack doesn't seem to have at the moment.

. I wish the arguments for a Jack-Kate romance didn't tend to rest on the presumption that Kate is a morally stunted person who can grow only under the light of Jack. Shouldn't both people bring something to the relationship? If moral tuition is the basis of the Jack-Kate relationship, what is Kate bringing to Jack other than her own inferiority?

.

I would LOVE to see some of these points addressed by those who remain convinced that Jack is Kate's true love. I seriously can't think of a single thing that is romantic about this premise - and it's pretty much the only one I've ever heard - that Jack and Kate would make a great romance because he's so much better than her and once she is sufficiently worthy, she'll be given to him. Sometimes it boggles my mind how offensive the concept is to women, but mostly it just baffles me that anyone finds it "romantic".

This is incredibly dismissive of Kate. Jack's "love" has NOT been a part of this story so far. She has survived this and helped Sawyer survive it on her own. She may have learned some lessons from him and be using them - and that's good, that's what all of us do from teachers and parents - but to say it's "Jack's love" that gave her this strength is to put something into the story that the writers did not write.

The point is love is not a magical game where one perfect person gifts the lesser being with power and strength and wisdom. Love is an ACTION. And Kate's love for Sawyer, her desperate need to save Sawyer, is where her strength has come from. It isn't enough. Without Jack's plan, Sawyer would die, and Jack is going to be the key that gets the lovers free. But Kate found her strength INSIDE HERSELF. By herself. Motivated by the need to save the man she loved.

This mini arc was all about Kate getting stronger. And Jack was nowhere to be found until the very last seconds. She may still need him as the story's white knight, but she doesn't need him to be a better person.

They did write it Duffy. They had Kate quote Jack when she said "Live together, die alone". She now espouses Jack's philosophy and, luckily, Sawyer is the benefactor. She could have left him behind. He practically begged her to. And she might have even though she has feelings for him if she hadn't changed. Sawyer's expressed (written by the writers) philosophy is "Every man for himself".

They did write it Duffy. They had Kate quote Jack when she said "Live together, die alone". She now espouses Jack's philosophy and, luckily, Sawyer is the benefactor. She could have left him behind. He practically begged her to. And she might have even though she has feelings for him if she hadn't changed. Sawyer's expressed (written by the writers) philosophy is "Every man for himself".

Dany, quoting someone's words does not equate to love. I personally quote Abraham Lincoln a lot...but don't feel his love shining down on me when I do it.

Is it even possible to look beyond words? Do you think "Every Man for Himself" is what Sawyer was thinking when he got down on his knees to be assasinated to save Kate? And where was Jack's love when Kate was screaming that she'd do ANYTHING! to save the man she had just made love to?

Is LOVE an action or just a word?

Is it even possible to look beyond words? Do you think "Every Man for Himself" is what Sawyer was thinking when he got down on his knees to be assasinated to save Kate? And where was Jack's love when Kate was screaming that she'd do ANYTHING! to save the man she had just made love to?
Is LOVE an action or just a word?

I don't see how Sawyer was trying to save Kate. He was the one whose life has been threatened, not Kate. Pickett has had it in for him. The only effort he made to save Kate was to tell her to leave. What does he think will happen to her after he is assasinated??

I don't see how Sawyer was trying to save Kate. He was the one whose life has been threatened, not Kate. Pickett has had it in for him.

Pickett (to Sawyer): Let go...or I do her, too!

Dany, quoting someone's words does not equate to love. I personally quote Abraham Lincoln a lot...but don't feel his love shining down on me when I do it.

Is it even possible to look beyond words? Do you think "Every Man for Himself" is what Sawyer was thinking when he got down on his knees to be assasinated to save Kate? And where was Jack's love when Kate was screaming that she'd do ANYTHING! to save the man she had just made love to?

Is LOVE an action or just a word?

I think it's both. We communicate our love for each other in what we do and in what we say. When either of those is missing, we become less sure of love. Sure he takes out the garbage but does he really love me? Sure, she irons my shirts but maybe it's just because she thinks it's what I expect? There are people who think Jack would lay down his life for anyone on the island just because he has a hero complex and can't let go, not because he genuinely cares for these people.

People don't say the words often enough in my opinion.

Thanks Dany but you're not addressing the point.

Kate's strength came from KATE. This need to diminish the woman at every turn by making her nothing but the vessel of Jack's godlike, almost magical, "love" is endlessly baffling to me. And it doesn't seem to emanate from anything they show on the screen. In fact, it seems you must IGNORE what they show on the screen - as Yellow Tang seems to have done - to keep seeing the characters in that light. What's the point of that?

Pickett (to Sawyer): Let go...or I do her, too!

Right, and Kate had a gun to her head, too. I do see that, but it was Sawyer who was the one in trouble here. I don't quite understand why he gave up so easily unless it was the "Sawyer death wish" thing going on. What did he think would happen to her after he was killed? IMO, he wasn't fighting for love. I do think he loves Kate, though and his actions are probably more a reflection on his personality than anything else.

Thanks Dany but you're not addressing the point.

Kate's strength came from KATE. This need to diminish the woman at every turn by making her nothing but the vessel of Jack's godlike, almost magical, "love" is endlessly baffling to me. And it doesn't seem to emanate from anything they show on the screen. In fact, it seems you must IGNORE what they show on the screen - as Yellow Tang seems to have done - to keep seeing the characters in that light. What's the point of that?

Actually I believe your argument is that Kate's strength comes from loving Sawyer. I don't see it that way.

Thanks Dany but you're not addressing the point.

Kate's strength came from KATE. This need to diminish the woman at every turn by making her nothing but the vessel of Jack's godlike, almost magical, "love" is endlessly baffling to me. And it doesn't seem to emanate from anything they show on the screen. In fact, it seems you must IGNORE what they show on the screen - as Yellow Tang seems to have done - to keep seeing the characters in that light. What's the point of that?

Duffy, You have a valid point, I think. that Kate needs to find strength in herself. but often it takes the love and belief of someone we love to bring that out. Sawyer is not fighting for Kate, Jack is. Jack has always been Kate's rock ever since Season 1. Watch the pilot episode.... Kate scared and weepy pitifully counting to five and yelling for Jack.
I don't think I am ignoring anything here, Duffy. It is simply a no win argument as we have seen different things and are convinced of what we see. There is nothing wrong with that... I hope you understand that I respect your opinion... it's just that I see things differently. Listening to you and showing you the way I see things (and visa versa) should enhance our perspectives not create frustration.

I understand Yellow Tang. And can you understand that NOWHERE in this episode did Kate need Jack's love to show the strenght she did? To try and rally Sawyer as he was giving up, to not let him out of her sight, to try and protect him from Pickett, to go with Juliet with a bag over her head when she had no idea where they were taking her, to plead for his life, to break him out of his cage, to throw her body between him and Pickett?

Can't you see that all of that was HER OWN strength? It didn't come from Jack - not in this episode. And that it wasn't done FOR the love of Jack? What love actually DID draw that out of her?

I wish the arguments for a Jack-Kate romance didn't tend to rest on the presumption that Kate is a morally stunted person who can grow only under the light of Jack. Shouldn't both people bring something to the relationship? If moral tuition is the basis of the Jack-Kate relationship, what is Kate bringing to Jack other than her own inferiority?


I've never really seen Jack and Kate's relationship that way. Jack has allowed Kate to be strong and independent while remaining protective, sometimes over-protective of her. He doesn't leer at her or make rude, tacky comments to her. He treats her with respect, like a person instead of a sex object that serves no other useful purpose. Yes, he gets mad at her, but he keeps it between them, keeps her secrets, puts his faith and his trust in her and all he asks in return is that she be honest with him.

Kate allows Jack to be human. He is her rock, but she also knows that he crumbles, that he's not super-human, that he's not perfect and she doesn't expect these things from him. She accepts him and his flaws and isn't afraid to strike back when he's acting jerky or call him out when he's beating himself up over things he has no control over. She knows which buttons to push and when and she, better than anyone else on the island understands the pressure he puts on himself. She admires that he cares so much and even though she doesn't see things the same way as he does all the time, she does her best to support him, to have his back, because she too has put her faith and trust in Jack and wants nothing from him in return except the same unconditional acceptance.

So in summary, Jack is helping Kate discover her sense of self-worth and Kate is helping Jack to understand and embrace the concept of unconditional love and acceptance.

I have no idea who Kate is or isn't in love with, but I have been able to pick up on the fact that she has been good for both men, that they get along as well as they do because of her and that both of them love her. That it took Jack being pulled completely away from her in order for Sawyer to finally win her affections leaves the whole "who is Kate in love with" wide open for debate. There is no right or wrong answer, it's all just opinions.

I understand Yellow Tang. And can you understand that NOWHERE in this episode did Kate need Jack's love to show the strenght she did?
On the contrary, I think as soon as she gets on the walkie she realizes he has come through for her. I think we will see her strength in the next episode. Jack reminder her of the beach conversation because she was so broken and is using the conversation to make sure she is safe but also to remind her to gather her strength.

Can't you see that all of that was HER OWN strength? It didn't come from Jack - not in this episode. And that it wasn't done FOR the love of Jack? What love actually DID draw that out of her?
No one can give another person strength, they can only show you the strength you have within you. I think the actions we see from Kate are from her own strength, but that Jack has always shown her that she has this strength: "You're not running now". I also see her quoting "Live together, die alone" as further evidence of this.

I know you think I'm blind, Duffy.. what can I say? I guess we just see two completely different things. I'm sure we both see that our sides are blatantly obvious... must be the work of genious writers!

Thanks Dany but you're not addressing the point.

Kate's strength came from KATE. This need to diminish the woman at every turn by making her nothing but the vessel of Jack's godlike, almost magical, "love" is endlessly baffling to me. And it doesn't seem to emanate from anything they show on the screen. In fact, it seems you must IGNORE what they show on the screen - as Yellow Tang seems to have done - to keep seeing the characters in that light. What's the point of that?

There's no need to be rude.

I enjoy reading Skater's arguement's against Jack-Kate.It's so hypocritical.Sawyer is the inferior partner in the Sawyer-Kate relationship.That entire episode was one big 'Pity Party.' Kate believes she is bad and can't save herself.She believes she can't fix herself.She can't erase her sin's.She can't get rid of the 'bad' she feels inside.So she takes Sawyer on as her 'project.' She feels bad for him because she know's how he feels.If she can make Sawyer into a better person than maybe there is hope for her.That's why I don't find anything Sawyer-Kate do romantic.Most of the scenes are like a Mother yelling at her son.Kate is always just annoyed at Sawyer when he fail's to act the way she want's him to.It's like she has to tell him to 'get up' or 'let's go Sawyer time for work' almost like a mother trying to get her lazy son up for school.That is not love.That is not sexy.That is not romantic.That is Kate battling her inner demons by controlling the one thing she has control over and that is Sawyer.But Sawyer feels he is just so worthless that he sit's there like a dog waiting for table scraps.That scene where he was looking for confirmation from Kate about the 'love confession' was sad,not romantic. She is trying to make ammends for her past sin's by changing someone who is like her.And that person is Sawyer.She knows what Sawyer want's from her because it's what she want's from Jack.

Wow, Streetz, another new poster, welcome!...You managed to make the Sawyer Kate thing sound pretty degrading, yet by the same token, you've degraded the Jack Kate thing as well. Kate sounds like such a nasty loser in your description. Having sex with that pathetic pile of crap. Yet somehow when Jack saves her from her disgusting self, we'll have a really fine romance I guess.

If you are interpreting what the writers showed that way - if that's what you make of all the romance and heroism they tried to write into that episode - then I doubt there's any point in them even bothering to write romance in the future. They just don't have it in them I guess.

Wow, Streetz, another new poster, welcome!...You managed to make the Sawyer Kate thing sound pretty degrading, yet by the same token, you've degraded the Jack Kate thing as well. Kate sounds like such a nasty loser in your description. Having sex with that pathetic pile of crap. Yet somehow when Jack saves her from her disgusting self, we'll have a really fine romance I guess.

If you are interpreting what the writers showed that way - if that's what you make of all the romance and heroism they tried to write into that episode - then I doubt there's any point in them even bothering to write romance in the future. They just don't have it in them I guess.

Wow what a mature response.

Oh I see how it is.So unless someone see's the 'Great Love Story' in this episode between Kate and Sawyer,which by the way was the most forced,contrived plot of the entire mini-series,than they must be a 'stupid' viewer who is incapable of seeing what the writers were doing.I don't recall calling Kate a 'nasty loser' as you put it.Kate has extreme emotional and psychological issues from a brutal past and does not have a very high opinion of herself.She does not see herself as deserving of anything good,as her flashback clearly showed.Her relationship with Sawyer will continue as long as Kate cotninues to feel she is undeserving of something good and she will continue to pity Sawyer a long the way.It is a mother-son relationship,based on Kate feeling an obligation to 'protect and care' for Sawyer because it turns the focus away from herself and on to Sawyer.Like I said,there is nothing 'sexy' or 'romantic' about Kate spending every episode talking down to Sawyer and giving him these sad looks because he continues to disapoint her.Once Kate learns to accept being happy and stop's believing she has this 'bad' inside her,she can grow out of Sawyer.

Streetz every last thing you said about Kate could be said about Sawyer.

The way I'm reading your logic is if a woman helps a man, that's pathetic. If a man (Jack) helps a woman, that's romantic.

I know you didn't use the term "nasty loser", but having sex with a man because he reminds you of all the "bad" in yourself ... that's pretty low. They didn't show that in this story, so I don't see Kate or any of the characters that way. But apparently you do.

Duffy and Streetz...stop the back and forth bait/flame war.

This thread will be closed if this continues.

She is trying to make ammends for her past sin's by changing someone who is like her.And that person is Sawyer.She knows what Sawyer want's from her because it's what she want's from Jack.

First off, welcome to the Fuselage! There have been a TON of new members in the last week...guess the mini-season garnered some attention! :biggrin:

Second, I'm trying to understand your point in the above statement...what exactly do you think Kate wants from Jack, or Sawyer wants from Kate (since you see them as one and the same thing)? Redemption? Sex? "Goodness"?

You mention 'making amends for past sins', but how can Jack offer that to Kate? He doesn't even know what she has done in her past (ie, blowing up her father), so how could he offer her amends? Jack's forgiveness, or absolution from him, is not needed...Wayne's was. And in Kate's mind, she received that (the black horse).

And in a similar vein, how could Kate offer that (amends) to Sawyer?

Unless I'm not understanding you correctly...?

Seriously? I see it like this:

Criminal + Criminal
Doctor + Doctor

Not very original. It's a known fact that opposites attract.

Actually, sociological studies show that while opposites do "attract," they don't tend to last. The healthiest and longest-lasting relationships are almost always between two people from similar backgrounds who share similar interests, values, and goals.

*goes back and reads everything*

Geez, this has turned into an all-out ship debate, hasn't it?!

I actually agree that the relationship between Jack and Kate is fairly strong. It would be strange if those experiences in the first few days (sewing him up, seeing the pilot eaten by the monster) didn't forge a bond. But it's hard to say that it's built on mutual respect or trust. In I Do, Jack quickly assumes that Kate's made some sort of deal with the Others, selling him out. Jack's rarely shown much respect for Kate's abilities. Despite initially (and generously) indicating no desire to know about her past, he's clearly been angry that she hasn't told him more ("Give me something real!" in All the Best Cowboys), though he hasn't reciprocated himself.

I know the presumption is that Kate can only grow if she's with Jack. I don't see why that's the only way for her to progress. Both Sawyer and Kate have good instincts and, I think, fundamentally good natures; they've been warped by their experiences, Sawyer far more than Kate. (Kate at least had some attention and direction from Army Dad while growing up, a good role model to follow; I get the impression that, after his parents died, Sawyer was rootless.) Neither has ever encouraged the other to do anything wrong or harmful on the island; the worst Sawyer's ever done was encourage Kate to leave off the fruit-picking to frolic at the waterfall. Both have done bad things on the island (Kate poisoning Michael, Sawyer taking the guns), but both acted independently and against the other in doing so. Perhaps it's overly romantic to think that for each, finding a real love than doesn't require lies, evasions, or masquerades will help each overcome the effects of bad education and let the good nature underneath come forward. I think we've seen some of that in this mini-season.

ETA:
KNJ, I think that's what we were supposed to see in this mini-season. Sawyer talked "Every Man for Himself," but he never put his own interests first; at worst he was planning on taking Kate with him, and at best he was urging Kate to go even though that would probably lessen his own chance of escape. And the idea that Sawyer and Kate function well as a team was established at least as early in LT,DA, when Kate turns to Sawyer for help in taking down their trackers.

Yup yup, I couldn't agree more. On my part, as the show progressed, I could see that Kate was becoming more and more attached to Sawyer. His laid back attitude and understanding nature made it easier for Kate to share certain things with him. Jack's treatment was okay too, but on certain things Kate knows that he just cannot understand her situation, hence she did not reveal much of herself to him.

I remembered in the earlier part of S01 Kate detested Sawyer; for his attitude and also for the way that he reminded her of Wayne (her irresponsible real father). But after knowing his sad past, she pitied him and made an effort to know him better. I guess the similarities she shares with Sawyer only made them closer, in ways that they could relate to each other. Their relationship in S02 is a testament to this, and Jack could sense it too and was angered with it (see S02E09; Jack chopping wood).

I wanted to say more but just don't know how to explain it. In a nutshell, Kate cares deeply about Sawyer and does not judge him until it is proven, as she knows that with Sawyer, what you see is not what you get. As for Jack, eventhough he cares for her (I'm sure Kate feels for him too, BTW), he does not know how to deal with her and gain her faith.

no one's gonna change his mind about this thing until we'll see her saying "I love you" to one of the guys uh? ;)

i think she loves sawyer,but she's in love with jack -

On the contrary, I think as soon as she gets on the walkie she realizes he has come through for her. I think we will see her strength in the next episode.

exactly!

Kate&Jack are each other's weakness and strength. (We saw a very vulnerable and weak Kate in these episodes,in EMFH,after have seen Jack she suddenly became WonderKate,she tried to escape,to do something)
They are too afraid of their feelings for each other for it not to be love.

The parallels to Star Wars are there for sure. What if Kate and Jack are biological brother and sister? The florida connection explanation. naaaaa.

I just think they are in love. Jack and Kate have a tight bond. Actions sometimes mean more than words. Just b/c juliet doesn't say, "I love you," doesn't mean she doesn't mean it. This is buttressed by her actions when she cries to Jack begging for Sawyer's life. This is sappy, for now. Wait till the confilict begins. Trust issues (Cons) between juliet, ben, kate, sawyer, and jack.

Yeah...Kate was high on emotions when she begged for Jack to do the surgery; she did it with the thought that it might be the only way to save Sawyer's life. To me, that shows her love for him. She might do the same for the others, that I am sure, but to see her choked with emotion when Jack mentioned Sawyer, that says something.
100%
no one's gonna change his mind about this thing until we'll see her saying "I love you" to one of the guys uh? ;)

i think she loves sawyer,but she's in love with jack -



exactly!

Kate&Jack are each other's weakness and strength. (We saw a very vulnerable and weak Kate in these episodes,in EMFH,after have seen Jack she suddenly became WonderKate,she tried to escape,to do something)
They are too afraid of their feelings for each other for it not to be love.

She became 'WonderKate', as you put it, to save Sawyer's life. She was certain that Sawyer's doomed to die when Jack refuses to do the surgery; that prompted her to free Sawyer eventhough she knew Sawyer was against it. She wasn't willing to see the man she love die, so she tried everything she can to save him.

i think she loves sawyer,but she's in love with jack -

It's interesting that in the last few weeks we've had mountains of arguments from Jate fans that Kate - despite not wanting Sawyer out of her sight, despite fearing for his life, despite protecting him, despite her heart breaking for his pain, despite risking her own life for him, despite making love to him and sleeping in his arms - is not "in love" with him....I think because she didn't say it. Apparently love is nothing but lip service.

Yet Jack, who she's never said anything close to "I love you" to....him, she is "in love" with. And there's no proof needed or offered.

The fact that in the moment of her lover's execution, he offers them a hope of escape and that she tells him he isn't being left behind either - is that being 'in love'? Wouldn't she respond the same way to ANY of her friends who offered her escape and who she wouldn't leave behind in hell? "In love" includes sexual passion, not wanting to be out of the other person's sight, not being able to bear the other person's pain, being willing to bear any burden for the other person - in short, all the things they showed her doing with/for Sawyer. And none of them shown with Jack.

This discussion sometimes reminds me of those Tshirts where all the color words are written in different colors - like the word "red" is written in the color blue. If you look at those tshirts long enough, they actually make you seasick.

It's interesting that in the last few weeks we've had mountains of arguments from Jate fans that Kate - despite not wanting Sawyer out of her sight, despite fearing for his life, despite protecting him, despite her heart breaking for his pain, despite risking her own life for him, despite making love to him and sleeping in his arms - is not "in love" with him....I think because she didn't say it. Apparently love is nothing but lip service.
I'm surprised you find it interesting, Duffy, because you've hit on one of the basic ideas behind the concept of Jate. There is a large contingent (no speculation on size comparable to any other groups) of fans who, to various degrees and at various long/short-term demands, prefer Jack to Sawyer as a romantic partner to Kate. This preference must fly in the face of what other viewers see, but it doesn't mean that they are viewing a different show or are missing some crucial element of comprehension. It simply means that YMMV.

I happen to be in the minority of that group that also sees a unique connection between Kate and Sawyer, sexual rather than romantic, but it doesn't take anything away from my determined belief that Kate and Jack are a romantic eventuality in the storyline of the show. My reactions to the scenes you've described above are bound to be different from yours. It's just the way it works - if we all saw the same things and came to the same conclusions, life would be very dull.

We, the aggregate of fans, tend to take ourselves quite seriously when it comes to interpretation of scenes, but even with all of those aforementioned "looks and touches," the lack of verbal reciprocity on the "I love you" is, I believe, significant. It's as significant as the "looks and touches" of the one scene between Jack and Kate of this entire mini-arc, wherein I could say I found it interesting that people could not see love in that scene...perhaps love is lip service there, as well?

If we allow for broad interpretation of the nonverbal behavior between Sawyer and Kate, we must also allow for broad interpretation of the same for Jack and Kate -- it's good manners. And Franci tried to be as generous as possible (some Jaters among us are not so conciliatory), by acknowledging that Kate loves Sawyer All we're saying is that we see a deep connection between Kate and Jack, one that is demonstrably non-familial. You had asked for proof, and I think that (in a LOST fan's typical "see what's not being shown" fashion) the utter lack of Jack/Kate interaction for five episodes in a row, followed by a single scene in which a book could be written about the subtext between them, speaks volumes about the strength of their relationship. It is easy to pile four episodes of evidence on top of one scene and claim a winner, but it's a difficult feat to ignore one scene's ability to keep such vocal Triangle discussion alive.
Yet Jack, who she's never said anything close to "I love you" to....him, she is "in love" with. And there's no proof needed or offered.
You'd asked once that I keep all proof to S3, which I thought a bit unfair, but alright. TPTB counted on developing the Jack/Kate dynamic enough, and counted on the fans believing it enough, that they could set it aside for five weeks, and have it still be as strong as ever. It didn't fade, it didn't sputter. For TPTB to consciously keep them separated but for one scene together and one scene in audio, they must have believed that their romantic undercurrent could survive the distance. Judging from this conversation, it did.

Ben claims that he always thought it would be Jack & Kate, and, mocking or not, their choice to keep them separated wreaked havoc on the psyches of both characters -- it gave them a chance to insinuate Juliet into Jack's life as a replacement for a wife who cheated on him, and it gave them a chance to break Kate and Sawyer by taking away her rock and putting her in a cage, and by forcing him to care about someone enough to put his life in jeopardy. It's a bold move, and it can't work unless the romantic ties are there and deeply embedded. Jack wouldn't break if he knew Kate was alive and could see her. Kate wouldn't break if she had Jack nodding assurance at her and knowing that he was OK. Sawyer wouldn't break if he didn't have Kate alone -- he spent far too much time in previous weeks/months teasing them about their "relationship," whether in Outlaws or about Ana-Lucia, or about the net. He wouldn't've dared make himself that vulnerable unless there was no one else around to stop him, no one else who could protect/reassure Kate. They made sure she was reliant on him for food, after all.

But all that aside (or perhaps including all that), that one scene between Jack and Kate speaks so much to their romantic connections. The looks on their faces when first recognizing each other, the way that each reached out to take a hand or hug, stopped by the glass, the way they each swallowed so many things for the sake of privacy and not letting the Others know they had hit on one of Jack/Kate's greatest weaknesses -- each other. Such great subtext doesn't happen between characters that are "in like" or characters who see each other as siblings.

As with all things, I know that many reactions are different from mine, but such is life and such is LOST.

Everblue, I do get that there is a determined group of fans that will see what they want in Jate no matter what. I have read their opinions at length, and they don't seem to feel that a sexual component is in any way critical to a heterosexual romance, whereas I can't imagine a love story without that as a bedrock. I think that is probably a key difference between Jate and Skate fans, and no amount of talk is going to convince fans that undervalue sexual expression in romantic relationships. I understand that.

However, my point - and those of others, here and in the media and on many other boards - is that the writers gave us the simplest of love stories. I think they absolutely diminished Jack and Kate's story by pushing it aside the way they did. I've read many opinions, on TWOP in particular, that the writers abandoned the romantic subtext in the Jate story mid season two (some think season one) and have been rebuilding them as family ever since. I think there was nothing but a father/daughter dynamic in the glass scene - and I find it amusing that so few reviewers (if any) have commented on that scene as the bombshell Jate fans found it to be.

I think there was an intentional power in that last scene - She was watching her lover be executed before her very eyes and then, when all hope was lost, there was Jack coming in on his white horse to save them. That was a powerful moment, but it was not a romantic moment. Love comes in many forms - I think maybe you even said that - but what differentiates romantic love from other forms is SEX. That is the dividing line. I don't think anyone is diminished by noticing this fact of life, and by noticing which man Kate chose as a sexual lover.

As for the kiss in place of words meaning less than the "I love you" she spouted emptily to her husband - I don't know why I would love that scene so much, and find it to be the most touching scene they've ever shared, if it didn't speak love to me as much as it clearly did to the lovestruck man she clearly convinced with that kiss.

Everblue, I do get that there is a determined group of fans that will see what they want in Jate no matter what. I have read their opinions at length, and they don't seem to feel that a sexual component is in any way critical to a heterosexual romance, whereas I can't imagine a love story without that as a bedrock. I think that is probably a key difference between Jate and Skate fans, and no amount of talk is going to convince fans that undervalue sexual expression in romantic relationships. I understand that.

However, my point - and those of others, here and in the media and on many other boards - is that the writers gave us the simplest of love stories. I think they absolutely diminished Jack and Kate's story by pushing it aside the way they did. I've read many opinions, on TWOP in particular, that the writers abandoned the romantic subtext in the Jate story mid season two (some think season one) and have been rebuilding them as family ever since. I think there was nothing but a father/daughter dynamic in the glass scene - and I find it amusing that so few reviewers (if any) have commented on that scene as the bombshell Jate fans found it to be.

I think there was an intentional power in that last scene - She was watching her lover be executed before her very eyes and then, when all hope was lost, there was Jack coming in on his white horse to save them. That was a powerful moment, but it was not a romantic moment. Love comes in many forms - I think maybe you even said that - but what differentiates romantic love from other forms is SEX. That is the dividing line. I don't think anyone is diminished by noticing this fact of life, and by noticing which man Kate chose as a sexual lover.

As for the kiss in place of words meaning less than the "I love you" she spouted emptily to her husband - I don't know why I would love that scene so much, and find it to be the most touching scene they've ever shared, if it didn't speak love to me as much as it clearly did to the lovestruck man she clearly convinced with that kiss.

Duffy, I understand your points, I think my difference of opinion on this issue with your statements rests with the text I've bolded. Your view, if I understand it, is that Jater tend to undervalue the sexual component of romantic love. I'd stay that they tend to put in the correct dynamic tension with other elements that make up a love romantic relationship. For example, in my romantic attachment to my husband there is a triad of values, emotions and sexual attraction. I would argue that all three are necessary to and contribute something that is essential for love to be and to endure. Sex is not a mere side issue, but neither are the other elements. There are seasons when one component is stronger, but its a dynamic thing. In a relationship where one element, especially the sexual is disproportionate, will diminish the overall relationship, often fatally. I'd say that SOME of those who value the Skate dynamic overvalue the role of sexuality in supporting a relationship. That's their right, just as is mine to frame my argument and not accept its framing by those who find it antithethical.

An interesting literary analysis of sorts that explores this dynamic tension is Austen's "Sense and Sensibility"... a very good and thoughtful treatment of the whole complex of issues.

I'm not overvalueing the sexual component, squid. It's just that without SEX, a love relationship is not a romantic relationship. It's friendship. Or family. Those are wonderful things, deep things. For many people, no sexual relationship will ever last as long or be as important in their lives as their family and friendships. It's not diminishing love to say it is nonsexual. It just defines it differently. There has not been a sexual element to Jack and Kate for a very long time, if ever. It has always been key to Kate and Sawyer's relationship. And now that they also love each other, looked in each others eyes and were each willing to die for the other - that's what distinguishes "in love" from "love".

I'm not overvalueing the sexual component, squid. It's just that without SEX, a love relationship is not a romantic relationship. It's friendship. Or family. Those are wonderful things, deep things. For many people, no sexual relationship will ever last as long or be as important in their lives as their family and friendships. It's not diminishing love to say it is nonsexual. It just defines it differently. There has not been a sexual element to Jack and Kate for a very long time, if ever. It has always been key to Kate and Sawyer's relationship. And now that they also love each other, looked in each others eyes and were each willing to die for the other - that's what distinguishes "in love" from "love".
Says who?

Call me a prude, but I've seen many a romantic relationship that doesn't (yet) have sex as part of the equation.

I'm not overvalueing the sexual component, squid. It's just that without SEX, a love relationship is not a romantic relationship. It's friendship. Or family. Those are wonderful things, deep things. For many people, no sexual relationship will ever last as long or be as important in their lives as their family and friendships. It's not diminishing love to say it is nonsexual. It just defines it differently. There has not been a sexual element to Jack and Kate for a very long time, if ever. It has always been key to Kate and Sawyer's relationship. And now that they also love each other, looked in each others eyes and were each willing to die for the other - that's what distinguishes "in love" from "love".

We'll have to agree to disagree, because I have seen evidence of physical attraction between Jack and Kate (just to name one, "you checking me out?" by Kate) -- that's not the only instance, just an example. Its definately an element of their relationship, but the relationship is not defined by that. I do think that you're right, some kinds of love are non-sexual (versus asexual - which is a different discussion) but we're talking about romantic love, which has the integral component of attraction -- just disagreeing about whether it applies to Jack and Kate

As a slight clairification I'm defining the sexual component to a relationship more broadly that the consumated act per se. It is an intregal component but does not entirely comprise it. The potentialty if you will must be there, but there is such a thing as a chaste romantic relationship. A good example of that is Jane Eyre and Rochester. She made her stand and stuck to it too, although she was very passionately in love -- almost the 19th century ideal of "romantic" - which has been re-defined over time from an emphasis on emotional attachment to the sexual component of that attachment. That's not parallel Jane/Rochester with Jack/Kate other than the chaste aspect, in general narrative terms Rochester probably parallels Kate and Jane parallels Jack

I think we've actually agreed on one of the key Jate/Skate differences, girls.

I'm not interested in "chaste" or sexless romances - in life or in my entertainment. I can't even begin to see the point of that, except as a tragedy - like when one of the people has had a terrible accident or is imprisoned or something like that. Still the sexual longing must exist for me to find any emotion in it, and the sexual chemistry for me to find any entertainment value. I've never seen it with Jate. I do find a fairly uniform consensus on this point, even it seems from Jaters.

You'd asked once that I keep all proof to S3, which I thought a bit unfair, but alright. TPTB counted on developing the Jack/Kate dynamic enough, and counted on the fans believing it enough, that they could set it aside for five weeks, and have it still be as strong as ever. It didn't fade, it didn't sputter. For TPTB to consciously keep them separated but for one scene together and one scene in audio, they must have believed that their romantic undercurrent could survive the distance. Judging from this conversation, it did.


I've tried to see that scene from the Jaters POV...honestly, I have!...and it simply escapes me. As Duffy said, there is nothing in that scene that couldn't have been played just as convincingly if Jack and Kate were father and daughter. It starts out sweetly enough...they have been separated for two weeks, not knowing what was happening to the other, so their happiness at seeing each other alive and intact was apparent. Had the glass not been there, they certainly would have reached out for physical confirmation of the others wellbeing, and shared a great big hug.

But it soon spiraled into mistrust and suspicion...Jack began yelling (rather unnecessarily, IMO) accusations in her face, and she began crying apologies for something that is not remotely her fault...and that's not the first time we've seen a similar Jate scene, with Jack spouting accusations or yelling irately, bringing Kate to tears. And the fact that Jack knew they were being watched there is irrelevant. He could see Kate's fear, her desperation, he knew how distraught she was...so I really would have liked to see him rein in his temper a bit there, and treat his friend with a little more gentleness.

So again, IMO, this scene perfectly illustrated how Jack and Kate are simply not compatible on a romantic level. They don't handle each other - or themselves - on a balanced level when emotions begin running high. And I think Jack knew from the moment Kate whispered "I have to" that she has fallen for Sawyer...his face there mirrors the look his gives the monitor as he sees them together...dropping his eyes, smiling sardonically, shaking his head...

:twocents:

I think we've actually agreed on one of the key Jate/Skate differences, girls.

I'm not interested in "chaste" or sexless romances - in life or in my entertainment. I can't even begin to see the point of that, except as a tragedy - like when one of the people has had a terrible accident or is imprisoned or something like that. Still the sexual longing must exist for me to find any emotion in it, and the sexual chemistry for me to find any entertainment value. I've never seen it with Jate. I do find a fairly uniform consensus on this point, even it seems from Jaters.

I believe my compadres were discussing the actual physical act of sex, not the desire or feeling for it. I see a lot of sexual chemistry and longing between Jack and Kate - I always have. It pulsated off the screen for me, in addition to the other emotions flying around, when Kate and Jack met in the fishtank. It's a gentler and more subtle type of sensuality which has its basis in care for the other person, as opposed to "raw" or "heated" which tends to be more about self-gratification and which characterizes, in my opinion, what Kate has with Sawyer.

I think we've actually agreed on one of the key Jate/Skate differences, girls.

I'm not interested in "chaste" or sexless romances - in life or in my entertainment. I can't even begin to see the point of that, except as a tragedy - like when one of the people has had a terrible accident or is imprisoned or something like that. Still the sexual longing must exist for me to find any emotion in it, and the sexual chemistry for me to find any entertainment value. I've never seen it with Jate. I do find a fairly uniform consensus on this point, even it seems from Jaters.

Chaste does not equal sexless, Duffy. You have a strong preference for the balance of a story, and that's entirely your right:) However I your characterization that there is a uniform consensus on the point or that there are alot of Jaters agreeing with you is in error -- there may be some, but imo they're the minority, not the majority.

Dany, my hats off to you if you saw sexual longing in that fishtank scene. It was a good scene, but there was nothing sexual in it...it would have been quite ridiculous had there been, even if they'd ever been lovers.

The reaction to the fishtank scene as a powerhouse has been almost entirely limited to Jate shippers, I'm afraid. Most reviewers brushed right past it.On TWOP even one guy who thought it proved Matt Fox is a genius of an actor had to admit he saw and felt nothing romantic from Kate in that scene. In fact, he felt nothing from Kate at all in that scene and had to admit, if it were being written as a love scene, it was entirely one sided. (Not that I can agree with him, given Jack's irritability and immediate disrespect for Kate, but that was about the only non Fuse reaction I've read about that scene that really lauded anything about it. )

Dany, my hats off to you if you saw sexual longing in that fishtank scene. It was a good scene, but there was nothing sexual in it...it would have been quite ridiculous had there been, even if they'd ever been lovers.

The reaction to the fishtank scene as a powerhouse has been almost entirely limited to Jate shippers, I'm afraid. Most reviewers brushed right past it.On TWOP even one guy who thought it proved Matt Fox is a genius of an actor had to admit he saw and felt nothing romantic from Kate in that scene. In fact, he felt nothing from Kate at all in that scene and had to admit, if it were being written as a love scene, it was entirely one sided. (Not that I can agree with him, given Jack's irritability and immediate disrespect for Kate, but that was about the only non Fuse reaction I've read about that scene that really lauded anything about it. )

of course by its very nature visual art and narrative are more subjective and open to interpretation than dialogue (which also must be interpreted in a greater context). "Critics" opinions from my perspective bear no more weight than that of other viewers because they are not privy to anymore information or wisdom than the general viewers and are just as prone to bias (for any ship) because they're regular old human beings just like us

of course by its very nature visual art and narrative are more subjective and open to interpretation than dialogue (which also must be interpreted in a greater context). "Critics" opinions from my perspective bear no more weight than that of other viewers because they are not privy to anymore information or wisdom than the general viewers and are just as prone to bias (for any ship) because they're regular old human beings just like us

I couldn't agree more squid. A critic is just a viewer, just like me and you and all Jaters and Skaters and non-shippers. I trust my own judgment and believe what I see - I've earned that right just as everyone else has. In the end, that's all you really have because otherwise who would be sure of anything. We'd be wishy-washy and at the mercy of developing our opinions based on what someone else decided we should think.

I would actually agree that the Jackquarium scene does show some romantic love--on Jack's part. Kate seems, to me, to be stiff and uncomfortable, undertaking a distasteful task--she knows he'll be angry and resentful--knowing she has no other choice. She reaches out a hand, not her arms, and then withdraws it. (And why would she put out her arms? Have these two embraced since The Moth? I don't think so.) Their hands never meet on the same level on the glass. Early in the scene she avoids his eyes, looking down and pushing her hair back. Her discomfort is obvious. If there is such love between them, and such confidence in that love, why is she uncomfortable?

Kate made an open bid for Jack's sexual attention all the way back in--well, it was a very early episode, I can't remember which. Jack didn't respond. I can't remember a subsequent scene where she made the same sort of bid. The shower scene in early S2 was another equivocal scene; Jack seemed interested, but her interest was hard to determine. I realize we won't agree on the net scene in SOS, but that did not appear to be a scene between two people eager to be at close quarters with one another. There seemed to be a great deal of writhing to avoid contact. I suppose you could argue that the discomfort just speaks to the greatness of their love and their shyness in the face of that love. But they are grownups, they've been at close quarters with other lovers and potential lovers before. Indeed, ID showed a Kate we hadn't really seen before, in love and quite at ease with her sexuality and her lover. Where was that Kate in the net?


You'd asked once that I keep all proof to S3, which I thought a bit unfair, but alright. TPTB counted on developing the Jack/Kate dynamic enough, and counted on the fans believing it enough, that they could set it aside for five weeks, and have it still be as strong as ever. It didn't fade, it didn't sputter. For TPTB to consciously keep them separated but for one scene together and one scene in audio, they must have believed that their romantic undercurrent could survive the distance. Judging from this conversation, it did.

Ben claims that he always thought it would be Jack & Kate, and, mocking or not, their choice to keep them separated wreaked havoc on the psyches of both characters -- it gave them a chance to insinuate Juliet into Jack's life as a replacement for a wife who cheated on him, and it gave them a chance to break Kate and Sawyer by taking away her rock and putting her in a cage, and by forcing him to care about someone enough to put his life in jeopardy. It's a bold move, and it can't work unless the romantic ties are there and deeply embedded. Jack wouldn't break if he knew Kate was alive and could see her. Kate wouldn't break if she had Jack nodding assurance at her and knowing that he was OK. Sawyer wouldn't break if he didn't have Kate alone -- he spent far too much time in previous weeks/months teasing them about their "relationship," whether in Outlaws or about Ana-Lucia, or about the net. He wouldn't've dared make himself that vulnerable unless there was no one else around to stop him, no one else who could protect/reassure Kate. They made sure she was reliant on him for food, after all.


But they expect us to remember Ethan, too, and he was only in a few episodes of S1 and one in S2. They do presume we remember a lot.

Jack is Kate's rock? Perhaps in the early days, though it's still a little insulting, given how independent Kate has been. But we've seen Kate estranged from Jack during a rather long stretch in S2, and it didn't result in any particular weakness from her. (Unless you count "hanging around with Sawyer a lot" as evidence of crumbling on Kate's part.) Instead she took on chores as Claire's protector and went off on a trek with Claire and Rousseau. I know Kate made that "If you weren't here, Jack..." statement all the way back in MOS,MOF (I think), but I think she was talking about Jack's importance to the group, not Jack's importance to her. After all, IIRC, right after making that statement she went off on her own, against Jack's wishes. So I think the argument that "Jack is Kate's rock" is no longer well-founded. If she's gotten that sort of emotional support from anyone lately, it's Sawyer. Sawyer was the one who consoled her after THP; it was in Sawyer's arms she wept after Libby's death; it was to Sawyer she turned when she needed backup in LT,DA.

And they didn't break Kate by keeping her away from Jack. The evidence shows that Kate can take quite a good deal of distance from Jack and keep on her own course. They broke her--and they did break her--by putting her with Sawyer rather than Jack, based on her own statements, and by subsequently brutalizing him. (Just as they broke Sawyer by threatening Kate.) It's the threat to Sawyer, not the reappearance of Jack, that spurs Kate to begin thinking aggressively about escape. (In EMFH she talks about escaping through the top of her cage before Jack is led by.) And it's the threat to Sawyer, not the sight of Jack, that makes Kate weep in the Jackquarium scene.

Jack, on the other hand, doesn't seem to have broken at all. Perhaps he always intended to do the surgery; perhaps seeing the Kate-Sawyer afterglow gave him a strategy. Hard to say, based on what we've seen. But there's no evidence that keeping Kate from Jack in particular weakened him, just as there's no evidence indicating that keeping Kate from Jack weakened her.

fly by comments.

i liked the scene with Jack and Kate. it was intense and very well done. the way i saw it/felt it was that Kate was torn by having to "choose". i dont think that she was ready to choose. while she was still in denial about her feelings for Sawyer, i think that she has/had feelings for Jack. like she wanted to give him a chance. even though she doesnt feel she deserves him.

at the glass, Kate gives him enough visual signs IMO that Jack should have softened to her pleas. she obviously was glad to see him, tried to reachout to him, show that she still cared for him. he basically rejected her. i dont think it would have mattered what she said or who they were going to kill. Jack would still have not moved to her requests. he cut off their line of communication. rather rudely.

Kate was on the fence really. Jack just pushed her over to Sawyer's side. not only that but her flashback was a clear interpretation of that. at least to me. the key was the very brief comments at the alter. the preacher is saying about his meeting with "Monica". and how she was what she was. nothing hidden (which we all know is a lie) Kevin had told the preacher why he loved her. he had said "what you see is what you get". that is exactly how Sawyer sees her. he knows her and sees her as she is, not as he wants her to be. Jack does not see her that way. IMO he cant take her as she is but wants her to be something else.

Kate may love Jack in way. and may end up with him one day. but for now she is with Sawyer. as long as he doesnt make her do "taco night". :biggrin:

fly by comments.

i liked the scene with Jack and Kate. it was intense and very well done. the way i saw it/felt it was that Kate was torn by having to "choose". i dont think that she was ready to choose. while she was still in denial about her feelings for Sawyer, i think that she has/had feelings for Jack. like she wanted to give him a chance. even though she doesnt feel she deserves him.

at the glass, Kate gives him enough visual signs IMO that Jack should have softened to her pleas. she obviously was glad to see him, tried to reachout to him, show that she still cared for him. he basically rejected h