She is not leaving the island without Jack...
She didn't say it to SAwyer...he said it to her....

She smiled than...
She was about to say it to Jack but stopped herself

YES! I agree with ya here. I would love to see it pan out this way. Right when you think she loves Sawyer...BAM

Mystery still prevails around the "Triangle" !!!!!!
Sawyer has professed his love to Kate, but she never did answer him when he asked her if she meant what she said, that she loved him when Sawyer was getting a whooping from Pickett!

i think kate's just overall afraid to say it period after what happened with her past husband. i thikn thats what the point of her flash back was. that and she cant stay still. well she seems to be staying still now.

I think the point of the flashback was that Jack=Kevin. Jack is the really nice too perfect guy that she doesn't think she deserves, so she chooses danger. A life on the run = Sawyer. Look at the dispicable things he's done and how he's lied to her- like in the episode where he steals the guns and uses her?
Kate definitely loves Jack, but doesn't think she deserves him. That's why at the end she won't leave without Jack.

I think the point of the flashback was that Jack=Kevin. Jack is the really nice too perfect guy that she doesn't think she deserves, so she chooses danger. A life on the run = Sawyer. Look at the dispicable things he's done and how he's lied to her- like in the episode where he steals the guns and uses her?
Kate definitely loves Jack, but doesn't think she deserves him. That's why at the end she won't leave without Jack.

First off, Kate manipulated both Jack and Sawyer to get her toy plane, so let's not act like she's the only one that's been dumped on this triangle. She's given as much as she's gotten.

Second, she loves them both and essentially won't choose one over the other without some outside pressure. Did Kate just sleep with Sawyer because she thougth he was going to be killed? Maybe, but I think that while she's been written as damsel in distress, she's also been the one that's been keeping these two going (or at least that better be what the writers are telling her to keep her into the character) through out the series.

Kate won't leave without Jack, because these people are MANIACS. They've got a gun to Sawyer's head, and have gone to these incredibly extreme lengths to get Jack to cooperate in a surgery...would you leave your friend at the hands of these mad-men?

Of course Kate cares about Jack. Of course she doesn't want to leave without him. She wants to get herself, Sawyer AND Jack away from these crazy people, and get the hell outta dodge.

But IMO, what TPTB are telling us is quite clear, from this episode...Kate has fallen in love with Sawyer. She willingly and completely gave herself to him when she finally realized how much he means to her, and how much he loves and wants to protect her.

You don't gaze at a man with your heart in your eyes the way she did, and NOT be in love with him. It's simply not possible. Unless you are a damn good actress, which Evie is. ;)

Kate definitely loves Jack, but doesn't think she deserves him. That's why at the end she won't leave without Jack.

Yeah, for such a Skate-heavy episode, having it end with Kate screaming desperately that she won't leave Jack if nothing else shows that she at least has strong feelings for them both. And she very pointedly did not say I love you to Sawyer, though from the fb we know she has no problem saying that to a guy if she means it. I don't know. Evi said in an interview recently that this choice would be temporary, and I think she's dead on.

She won't run anymore. She's not that bad, she will never let Jack behind her because she really cares about him. After two seasons being close, you'd think she'd let him behind?

But her choice is Sawyer. And you'll be highly disappointed if you expect something else in February. She slept with him because she wanted to and the L word?...she said it to her hubby but she left him. Her actions are more important than her words concerning Sawyer and that's why they wanted to point out.

Making a choice doesn't mean to stop caring or being friends with the other one. They have no twelve years old anymore.

I agree...I still think she's in love with Jack.

It's just interesting we never saw the conversation that transpired between Kate/Juliet en route to the Hydra. Then the look on Kates face when she saw Jack spoke volumes.

I think she is conning Sawyer paralleling it to her FB's. Juliet told her she had to play Sawyer or Jack would die.... I just noticed she kissed Sawyer to distract him & never said I love you. And then obviously in the end scene she couldn't leave Jack like she couldn't her husband.

Something else is going on imo because Kate's behavior in sleeping with Sawyer is contradictory to how she's rejected his advances this season in addition to the confession withdrawal.

Well, I'll just have to say that I disagree. I think she cares very deeply about Jack but her choice was clear and definitive tonight.

I think it's important that she won't leave without Jack. This shows how much she's grown. It's the 'live together, die alone" thing. All 3 of them need to escape.

But; I really think tonight her choice was clear.
I guess you can think it was a con... certainly there's lots of conning going on... I just don't think it's as likely as what came at us at face value. Shrug.

OK, Kate maybe in love w/ Jack, but Jack doesn't know that. Jack saw S/K together on the monitors and saw Kate's expression when she said "if you don't do it they will kill Sawyer" and called the meeting off. My question is why did Jack not mention Sawyer when he told Kate to run? Jack knows K/S are together; he should have said Kate take Sawyer and run or you and Sawyer run....something to that effect. Does Jack really not give a sh*t about Sawyer? Is he jealous?

Evi had said choice is an "ambiguous" word and I'd agree with that because sex doesn't necessarily equal love. Kate has used her sexuality in the past to get what she wanted such as with Jason & she was able to even "get to" the Marshal of all ppl.. I believe she genuinely cares for Sawyer, but due to her past if the Others put her in a Sophie's choice situation, she wouldn't view it as a big deal to use her body if it meant life or death. I think we'll be surprised in Feb to see how everything changes.

I just think it was a poor decision to handle everything this way.

Yeah, for such a Skate-heavy episode, having it end with Kate screaming desperately that she won't leave Jack if nothing else shows that she at least has strong feelings for them both. And she very pointedly did not say I love you to Sawyer, though from the fb we know she has no problem saying that to a guy if she means it. I don't know. Evi said in an interview recently that this choice would be temporary, and I think she's dead on.

I agree, for now it's Sawyer, I really think a testing time for Kate will be how she copes with Jack and Juliet together .

OK, Kate maybe in love w/ Jack, but Jack doesn't know that. Jack saw S/K together on the monitors and saw Kate's expression when she said "if you don't do it they will kill Sawyer" and called the meeting off. My question is why did Jack not mention Sawyer when he told Kate to run? Jack knows K/S are together; he should have said Kate take Sawyer and run or you and Sawyer run....something to that effect. Does Jack really not give a sh*t about Sawyer? Is he jealous?

Actually, Jack asked Kate about Sawyer when she came to see him in the Hydra cell. Sawyer has never asked about Jack. I would actually like to see a friendship develop between Jack and Sawyer rather than the back and forth between the three of them.

OK, Kate maybe in love w/ Jack, but Jack doesn't know that. Jack saw S/K together on the monitors and saw Kate's expression when she said "if you don't do it they will kill Sawyer" and called the meeting off. My question is why did Jack not mention Sawyer when he told Kate to run? Jack knows K/S are together; he should have said Kate take Sawyer and run or you and Sawyer run....something to that effect. Does Jack really not give a sh*t about Sawyer? Is he jealous?Jack got very upset when he heard Sawyer was being hurt. And we can't forget in the past how he's never refused to help even an enemy in dire circumstances-Sawyer (2x CM, COL) & at Kate's asking w/the glasses, Ben, & Colleen. Kate should have seen through what he was doing-it was obvious imo with how much Jack looked up at the camera that he was putting on a show to try to convince them he wouldn't do the surgery. It was his only bargaining chip. That's been set up for the last several eps.If they were really going to kill Sawyer they would have done it already but Jack knew they would eventually. It was Pickett who was rogue & took his personal vendetta out on Sawyer. Juliet just used it to her advantage.

ETA: Not to mention Jack got mad before Sawyer was ever even mentioned. Kate said "You have to do it" , & Jack looked down rather unaffected, looked up at the camera & then suddenly got all angry.

I agree...I still think she's in love with Jack.

It's just interesting we never saw the conversation that transpired between Kate/Juliet en route to the Hydra. Then the look on Kates face when she saw Jack spoke volumes.

I think she is conning Sawyer paralleling it to her FB's. Juliet told her she had to play Sawyer or Jack would die.... I just noticed she kissed Sawyer to distract him & never said I love you. And then obviously in the end scene she couldn't leave Jack like she couldn't her husband.

Something else is going on imo because Kate's behavior in sleeping with Sawyer is contradictory to how she's rejected his advances this season in addition to the
confession withdrawal.

lol id expect nothing less from you banshee faith till the end ^.^

though when did juliette tell kate she had to play sawyer or jack would die? I think it was quite the opposite...she told kate to go get jack to do the surgery or sawyer would die. i dont see where you got that other idea unless you think that this was done off screne in which case what would have been the point of the scene where juliet scared kate over sawyer? i mean...sawyer didnt exactly hear it. and it seemed to me to be the first time kate and juliet ever actually SPOKE. (pointing a gun doesnt count ^.^)

uh...my take on the flashback was that either kates i love yous dont mean too much...or that shes afraid to say it after that experience. it seemed to me that when she says i love you she has to run away. maybe thats why she hasnt said it yet is she doesnt wanna get that clamped feeling. although you thikn that she DIDN'T leave her husband? she totally did leave her husband...watch that part again...heh.

when did kate reject sawyer's advances this season?....never! thats when. lol she kissed him bk passionatly and flirted with him in the cage after. the only time she said anything that could even remotly be considered that is when she said "stop staring at my ***" (and my girlfriend says that to me all the time! ^^) (though if you have a tiem i missed lemmie kno)

and yes she couldnt leave jack. she prolly still has some romantic feelings for him, though even if it was just firendship, would you leave a friend of yours in that prediciment? i wouldnt.

Jack got very upset when he heard Sawyer was being hurt. And we can't forget in the past how he's never refused to help even an enemy in dire circumstances-Sawyer (2x CM, COL) & at Kate's asking w/the glasses, Ben, & Colleen. Kate should have seen through what he was doing-it was obvious imo with how much Jack looked up at the camera that he was putting on a show to try to convince them he wouldn't do the surgery. It was his only bargaining chip. That's been set up for the last several eps.If they were really going to kill Sawyer they would have done it already but Jack knew they would eventually. It was Pickett who was rogue & took his personal vendetta out on Sawyer. Juliet just used it to her advantage.

ETA: Not to mention Jack got mad before Sawyer was ever even mentioned. Kate said "You have to do it" , & Jack looked down rather unaffected, looked up at the camera & then suddenly got all angry.

I agree w/everything you're saying..that's why it bugs me that he knows Sawyer is with Kate and yet he says run Kate run but does not mention Sawyer.

Edit: If Jack would have said "Kate you take Sawyer and run" this would imply that Jack has conceded, he would give himself up for the benefit of the both of them, thus spurring Kate's affection for Jack. Kate's affection for Jack was implied by the way it did unfold, I just think this would have made it more definite.

lol id expect nothing less from you banshee faith till the end ^.^

though when did juliette tell kate she had to play sawyer or jack would die? I think it was quite the opposite...she told kate to go get jack to do the surgery or sawyer would die. i dont see where you got that other idea unless you think that this was done off screne in which case what would have been the point of the scene where juliet scared kate over sawyer? i mean...sawyer didnt exactly hear it. and it seemed to me to be the first time kate and juliet ever actually SPOKE. (pointing a gun doesnt count ^.^)yep that's me ;)

When did juliette not tell Kate? We didn't see their conversation en route to the Hydra. And they left Kate's ep with a cliffhanger it was not a stand alone with full resolution. Why even have a cliffhanger that way if her choice was clear?

She couldn't leave w/o Jack but she could leave her husband which I would say was supposed to parallel Sawyer' in this ep. But she also conned her husband thus where is the final FB/real island time juxtaposition that a Lost ep always ends with were she not conning Sawyer as well?

when did kate reject sawyer's advances this season?....never! thats when. lol she kissed him bk passionatly and flirted with him in the cage after. the only time she said anything that could even remotly be considered that is when she said "stop staring at my ***" (and my girlfriend says that to me all the time! ^^) (though if you have a tiem i missed lemmie kno) She told Sawyer to stop checking her out which is in contrast to how she wanted Jack to be. She rolled her eyes at Sawyer repeatedly, glared & was offended at his dress comments, he kissed her, in the past she was forced to kiss him, was forced to say she loved him to stop the beating & here again tonight did not retract her retraction by saying I love you back...Also we haven't seen Kate initiate sexually based physicality with Sawyer until suddenly tonight.

Re:the kiss, she had been defensive about it until Sawyer revealed that he had done it as part of a plan. Then she relaxed & made a joke out of it like when she told Jack "I only made out with him because torturing didn't work."
and yes she couldnt leave jack. she prolly still has some romantic feelings for him, though even if it was just firendship, would you leave a friend of yours in that prediciment? i wouldnt.When she wouldn't leave Sawyer & climbed back in the cage it was viewed in some opinions as confirmation of her being in love w/him despite her retraction. As I mentioned above I would have thought Sawyer would have been the one she'd have told Jack she couldn't leave without not him. It was in contrast & a direct parallel imo to her being able to leave her husband.

yep that's me ;)

When did juliette not tell Kate? We didn't see their conversation en route to the Hydra. And they left Kate's ep with a cliffhanger it was not a stand alone with full resolution. Why even have a cliffhanger that way if her choice was clear?

She couldn't leave w/o Jack but she could leave her husband which I would say was supposed to parallel Sawyer' in this ep. But she also conned her husband thus where is the final FB/real island time juxtaposition that a Lost ep always ends with were she not conning Sawyer as well?

She told Sawyer to stop checking her out which is in contrast to how she wanted Jack to be. She rolled her eyes at Sawyer repeatedly, glared & was offended at his dress comments, he kissed her, in the past she was forced to kiss him, was forced to say she loved him to stop the beating & here again tonight did not retract her retraction by saying I love you back...Also we haven't seen Kate initiate sexually based physicality with Sawyer until suddenly tonight.

Re:the kiss, she had been defensive about it until Sawyer revealed that he had done it as part of a plan. Then she relaxed & made a joke out of it like when she told Jack "I only made out with him because torturing didn't work."
When she wouldn't leave Sawyer & climbed back in the cage it was viewed in some opinions as confirmation of her being in love w/him despite her retraction. As I mentioned above I would have thought Sawyer would have been the one she'd have told Jack she couldn't leave without not him. It was in contrast & a direct parallel imo to her being able to leave her husband.

Banshee, this is good stuff! I think you are right on. I think Jack is her "good guy" and all of the flashbacks seem to parallel him. It was made obvious that Kate thought Sawyer would die... I think that was her goodbye.

The purpose of Kate's flashbacks in this episode (and arguably all of the flashbacks this season) have been to contrast, not parallel their current situations. Jack in his TOTC flashbacks was having trouble letting go. Yet by the end of the episode we feel that he has gotten the closure he needed regarding his marriage and is finally able to let go. Sawyer's flashbacks in EMFH show him acting selfishly and being unable to make himself emotionally vulnerable. Yet in island time we see how very much he loves Kate, how vulnerable he is with her, and that because of her he now acts unselfishly.

In light of that, Kate's flashbacks in this episode are very important. She repeatedly told Kevin that she loved him but her words were hollow. With Kate, her actions always speak louder than her words. Lies come easily to her, the truth does not. She didn't need to vocally say "yes, I love you" in order to make him understand that she does. They've never needed to spell things out for each other like that.

Frankly, as a Skater, I'd be much more worried if she had said I love you because that would have made her relationship with Sawyer seem analogous to her relationship with Kevin, and we see how that ended. I think we were meant to see the two relationships are contrasts to each other, however. I really don't see how you can read it any other way.

If the music, the kisses, the looks, the tears, the tenderness, and the mutual concern shown between Kate and Sawyer in this episode didn't convince you that these are two people very much in love, nothing will.

yep that's me ;)

When did juliette not tell Kate? We didn't see their conversation en route to the Hydra. And they left Kate's ep with a cliffhanger it was not a stand alone with full resolution. Why even have a cliffhanger that way if her choice was clear?

well what was the point of her origional conversation then? about SAWYER and not jack? when juliette said SAWYERS life was in danger. what shes just gonna say that for whatevers sake? even tho you kno theres the psycho guy wanting to kill sawyer...i guess that must be fake, because the real threat is on jack if kate doesnt play sawyer. play sawyer HOW? what benefit could the others have by kate getting with sawyer?

(and before you say walking in and seeing them together...it was alex who was on the intercom)

im sorry, but I think thats wishful thinking, because there has been no proof or even HINT at that.

what they clearly showed in the episode with meaning was that kate was afraid of SAWYER dying NOT jack and therefore went to beg JACK for sawyer's life basically.

She couldn't leave w/o Jack but she could leave her husband which I would say was supposed to parallel Sawyer' in this ep. But she also conned her husband thus where is the final FB/real island time juxtaposition that a Lost ep is always ends with?

I dont think thats the parallel at all. I think the parallel was that Kate settled with someone she thought she was happy with but couldnt stay in one place and that all she did all her i loves yous all of her affection meant nothing cuz she still ran.

so you think the parralel is that she COULD leave sawyer (hr husband) but NOT jack? .....she's clearly stayed for sawyer before and did it again in this ep. So it might be for BOTH of them shes staying with. but she has shown absoutly NO willingness to leave either of them...so i dont see how shes willing to leave sawyer like she did her husband. if anything i found it way more interesting she told her husband she loved him but then drugged him and left where she is so resistant to tell sawyer she loves him but is right there with him.

She told Sawyer to stop checking her out which is in contrast to how she wanted Jack to be. She rolled her eyes at Sawyer repeatedly, glared & was offended at his dress comments, he kissed her, in the past she was forced to kiss him, was forced to say she loved him to stop the beating & here again tonight did not retract her retraction by saying I love you back...Also we haven't seen Kate initiate sexually based physicality with Sawyer until suddenly tonight.

how she wanted jack to be what? when did she want jack to check her assout? or are you saying that she wanted jack to be a gentlemen? either way, id have to ask, can you read minds? ^.^ cuz other than that i see nowehere were you may have gotten that. again if im missing something fill me in.

she rolled her eyes in that "oh sawyer" type way that sometimes was out of frustration yet other times clearly out of affection. i dont think she was offended by the dress comment as much as she wanted him to know it wasnt her choice to wear it.

and ture we havebt, but we saw her kiss jack once....what did she do then? she ran away. she went all the way with sawyer tonight, and what did she do? she stayed right next t ohim, till morning.


Re:the kiss, she had been defensive about it until Sawyer revealed that he had done it as part of a plan. Then she relaxed & made a joke out of it like when she told Jack "I only made out with him because torturing didn't work."
When she wouldn't leave Sawyer & climbed back in the cage it was viewed in some opinions as confirmation of her being in love w/him despite her retraction. As I mentioned above I would have thought Sawyer would have been the one she'd have told Jack she couldn't leave without not him. It was in contrast & a direct parallel imo to her being able to leave her husband.


she wasnt defensive about it, she enjoyed it very much, which was obvious in how she kissed bk. but she wanted to know what the heck he was thinkign because hwo would do that randomly in their sutation especially knowing he would get beat.

um i dont think when she said that to jack about torturing it was meant to be a joke, i think that was a underlying way of saying "i still havent goten over the fact that you actually approved of torturing someone yo uknow. " and i get that form the EDGE to ehr voice when she said that. it wasnt a joke at all.

and kate still hasnt told sawyer she couldnt leave without jack. she asked what about him, and told jack she didnt wanna leave him. tho from the previews it looks like kate and sawyer are gone a RUNNING and jack is still left behind. so all in all, she leaves jack behind
100%
Banshee, this is good stuff! I think you are right on. I think Jack is her "good guy" and all of the flashbacks seem to parallel him. It was made obvious that Kate thought Sawyer would die... I think that was her goodbye.

yes, people always have passionate sex with friends as a way of saying goodbye :rolleyes: ESPECIALLY when you think theyre going to be murdred. *muffled laughter*:hypocrit:

yes, people always have passionate sex with friends as a way of saying goodbye :rolleyes: ESPECIALLY when you think theyre going to be murdred. *muffled laughter*:hypocrit:

I never said she doesn't have feelings for Sawyer. Obviously, she does. But love? I think it is unsatisfying that it's left open, personally. I would kind of like to be done with the triangle for a while.

Personally I think Kate loves both men just in different ways. I think she cares deeply for Jack and would have his back in a second. I think she's still leary about Sawyer but she does love him and is attracted to him.

she definatly loves Sawyer, you can see it in her eyes when pickett was going to kill him.

not to mention the fact that kate was willing to leave jack earlier, until she talked to him. when she said "sawyer, you dont want jack to save your life, then your going to save your own, we're getting outta here right now!" so she was gonna leave.

If it's not clear to you after this episode that Kate loves Sawyer, I don't think you're smart enough to be watching a show of this calibre.

The purpose of Kate's flashbacks in this episode (and arguably all of the flashbacks this season) have been to contrast, not parallel their current situations. Jack in his TOTC flashbacks was having trouble letting go. Yet by the end of the episode we feel that he has gotten the closure he needed regarding his marriage and is finally able to let go. Sawyer's flashbacks in EMFH show him acting selfishly and being unable to make himself emotionally vulnerable. Yet in island time we see how very much he loves Kate, how vulnerable he is with her, and that because of her he now acts unselfishly.

In light of that, Kate's flashbacks in this episode are very important. She repeatedly told Kevin that she loved him but her words were hollow. With Kate, her actions always speak louder than her words. Lies come easily to her, the truth does not. She didn't need to vocally say "yes, I love you" in order to make him understand that she does. They've never needed to spell things out for each other like that.

Frankly, as a Skater, I'd be much more worried if she had said I love you because that would have made her relationship with Sawyer seem analogous to her relationship with Kevin, and we see how that ended. I think we were meant to see the two relationships are contrasts to each other, however. I really don't see how you can read it any other way.

If the music, the kisses, the looks, the tears, the tenderness, and the mutual concern shown between Kate and Sawyer in this episode didn't convince you that these are two people very much in love, nothing will.Insulting ppl's intelligence is not conducive to selling your opinion just because someone doesn't agree with you. I am not going on the KS sex thread and reducing you for your views.

As I said previously what was the point of the cliffhanger? If her "choice" was clear-she would have told Jack she couldn't leave without Sawyer. She stood there dumbfounded with a gun to his head when she had the advantage since Ben was being held hostage. Jack was fine-he had the upperhand & Kate knew it. It should have been a no brainer vs "I can't I can't" go. Some folks proported she was never even going to bother w/Jack in EMFH when she climbed out of her cage. And her being unable to leave without Sawyer proved she was in love w/him. Thus I think the same logic could be said here given not being able to run=digging in=loving someone too much to leave them.

There were also looks, swelling music, & Kate reached out to touch Jack in the Hydra scene. She did not do that the first opportunity she had to do so w/Sawyer.

ETA^

Insulting ppl's intelligence is not conducive to selling your opinion just because someone doesn't agree with you.

As I said previously what was the point of the cliffhanger? If her "choice" was clear-she would have told Jack she couldn't leave without Sawyer. She stood there dumbfounded with a gun to his head when she had the advantage since Ben was being held hostage. Jack was fine-he had the upperhand & Kate knew it. It should have been a no brainer vs "I can't I can't" go. Some folks proported she was never even going to bother w/Jack in EMFH when she climbed out of her cage. And her being unable to leave without Sawyer proved she was in love w/him. Thus I think the same could be said here since not being able to run=digging in=loving someone too much to leave them.

There were also looks, swelling music, & Kate reached out to touch Jack in the Hydra scene. She did not do that the first opportunity she had to do so w/Sawyer.

ETA^

um i think the cliffhanger is more what the heck is going to happen to all of them rather than who kate chooses.

see...something people are still overlooking is jack didnt tell them to let kate and sawyer go, he just told her to run. picket and the unnamed other still both have guns to our heros heads. thats a bit of a problem. hehe. plus she OBVIOUSLY doesnt wanna leave jack now that she knows he has the upper hand and CAN get away. friends dont leave friends. and potential romances dont either.

and i would agree with your theory about that equalling that if she hadnt earlier in the episode yet AGAIN been willing to leave with sawyer without jack. thus far thats two times she willling to leave with sawyer WITHOUT jack yet no tiems shes willing to leave with jack without sawyer.

as for the looks swelling music ect...remember...when she first saw sawyer it was barely a day since their seperation whereas here its been what, a week now? since she saw jack? and didnt even know if he was ok. and considering what shes SEEN happen to sawyer im sure she was owrried to death about him. that doesnt nessicarily mean shes in love with him tho.

If it's not clear to you after this episode that Kate loves Sawyer, I don't think you're smart enough to be watching a show of this calibre.



Completely unnecessary. Please keep things civil. Thank you.

Insulting ppl's intelligence is not conducive to selling your opinion just because someone doesn't agree with you.

I apologize if I offended anyone and I certainly was not aiming it at anyone in particular. But I do believe that Carlton and Damon made it very clear in this episode who Kate loves. They said themselves that it was a "definitive and emotional and physical choice" and I think it's grasping at straws to look at that choice as in any way ambiguous. This isn't a show that needs to drop anvils on your head to get a point across, but I believe that Damon and Carlton came as close to that as possible in tonight's episode without insulting the viewers' intelligence.

Completely unnecessary. Please keep things civil. Thank you.

Duly noted. My apologies.

If it's not clear to you after this episode that Kate loves Sawyer, I don't think you're smart enough to be watching a show of this calibre.



Okay, you know what...that was totally uncalled for. Just because Banshee doesn't agree with your point of viewer doesn't give you the right to insult her intelligence. That's unclassy and rude. Nice way to represent your ship, honey!

Things are in your favor right now shipwise, why not just go enjoy it on your thread. You've said your piece here and frankly you're just looking to start wars when you come on a thread called "But Kate Loves Jack" and start insulting people for thinking differently. Jeez...

Okay, you know what...that was totally uncalled for. Just because Banshee doesn't agree with your point of viewer doesn't give you the right to insult her intelligence. That's unclassy and rude. Nice way to represent your ship, honey!

Things are in your favor right now shipwise, why not just go enjoy it on your thread. You've said your piece here and frankly you're just looking to start wars when you come on a thread called "But Kate Loves Jack" and start insulting people for thinking differently. Jeez...

he was already moded and he apologized for his mistake alreqady. how about we DROP IT now huh?

and please...dont start talking about representing ships because one person with a rude comment is from it. THAT is trying to start a war if you ask me. he didnt bring any ship itno it at all. so why dont we leave the ships out of it if we want this to keep peaceful?

But I do believe that Carlton and Damon made it very clear in this episode who Kate loves. They said themselves that it was a "definitive and emotional and physical choice" and I think it's grasping at straws to look at that choice as in any way ambiguous.

Well, I think you should try reading the posts. A lot of Jack/Kate supporters are confused and rightly so... there are many places where they could have closed the door on Kate's relationship to Jake and didn't. Why didn't she say "I love you"?? If she is choosing Sawyer, it is frustrating to me that she didn't because I feel I am being strung along. I can say that after talking intelligently to ppl who want Sawyer and Kate together, the flashback parallel really could work with either man.

I apologize if I offended anyone and I certainly was not aiming it at anyone in particular. But I do believe that Carlton and Damon made it very clear in this episode who Kate loves. They said themselves that it was a "definitive and emotional and physical choice" and I think it's grasping at straws to look at that choice as in any way ambiguous. This isn't a show that needs to drop anvils on your head to get a point across, but I believe that Damon and Carlton came as close to that as possible in tonight's episode without insulting the viewers' intelligence.

Duly noted. My apologies.Thanks for your apology.

You mentioned not dropping anvils, but in the pre-ep debate over Jack/Kate's scene I saw a lot of harshness toward Jack for how he was with Kate even though it was made clear through the subtext in the ep he was paying a lot of attention to the cameras. Which simply wouldn't matter if he wasn't putting on a show. Many ppl disagreed with me even though I thought it was clear. So there can be different interpretations to things someone else may take as fact. Kate cares about Sawyer loves him as a friend imo, I just don't believe she is in love.

Damon said "more" definitive emotional and physical choice suggesting there were 2 aspects of the choice. Not to mention Kristin said of J/K/S that one of their intentions was sincere, & one was insincere. It's debatable who was who.

It could be she physically chose Sawyer because she got caught up on the emotionality of the moment. That happens & so does sex w/o love which is why the lack of her saying I love you back is curious. She did say it to her husband.
On the contrary I did find tonight's ep very insulting to the way Jate was used & handled after the 2 yrs build up to justify something I feel was done just for ratings & not because Kate is genuinely in love w/Sawyer.

I think the picture will be different in Feb & the roles will be reversed which I think is insulting to Skate as well.

ITA^

Well, I think you should try reading the posts. A lot of Jack/Kate supporters are confused and rightly so... there are many places where they could have closed the door on Kate's relationship to Jake and didn't.

Well, most importantly, Kate and Jack obviously have developed a bond and care a lot about each other, and to "close the door" on that would simply not make any sense. I do believe that this episode "closed the door" on any romantic aspects of Jack and Kate's relationship, however. That being said, the concern they showed for each other is touching and appropriate and anything less would have been a discredit to their history together. I believe that this episode showed that yes, Jack and Kate still care a lot about each other, but no, it isn't love in the way that Kate and Sawyer love each other.

I personally believe that the writers are through with "the triangle" and done with jerking us around emotionally, and that Damon and Carlton saying that this choice is "definitive" means something. For that reason alone I believe we are most definitely supposed to gather from this episode that Kate loves Sawyer and Sawyer loves Kate. I can understand how a disappointed shipper might want to see things otherwise, but I don't think what's on screen really supports any other reading.


Thanks for your apology.

You're welcome, and let me reiterate it again. I think we just all get frustrated when we feel like the way we see things is so obvious and it seems that other people just don't get it. I apologize for letting my frustration get the best of me.

Kate cares about Sawyer loves him as a friend imo, I just don't believe she is in love.I just don't believe that "friends" have sex -- not like that. Damon and Carlton referred to the sex as a consummation, and if Kate doesn't love Sawyer, there's nothing to consummate. You don't "consummate" a friendship.

That happens & so does sex w/o love which is why the lack of her saying I love you back is curious. She did say it to her husband.She said it to her husband, but she didn't show it to her husband through her actions. By initiating physical contact with Sawyer and staying with him, I believe Kate is showing that she loves Sawyer and that she doesn't need to say it.

Princeex86, I love that you said this because I can lead into my point with it. From the second Kate saw Jack he was back on her mind. You could tell Juliett wasn't happy about taking Kate to see Jack. What could the reason possibly for them separating Jack from Kate and Sawyer and constantly throwing out suggestive comments to both of them? For whatever reason, they don't WANT Kate with Jack, they want her with Sawyer. If they'd have put Jack in that cage all season, the same thing would have happened. Kate tried to free Sawyer because she knew they were going to kill him...she knew Jack was safe, not only that, but that they needed him so they weren't going to hurt him. They never got to it, but I'm betting she wouldn't have left him if Sawyer had chosen to run for it.

This entire mini season, the Others have been throwing Sawyer at Kate, from the first time Ben implied that she loved Sawyer because she said his name first at the breakfast table. They have created situation after situation to bring Kate and Sawyer together...she would have never said I love you if it wasn't for Sawyer constantly getting the crap beat out of him, regardless of whether or not she meant it. Why would they be okay with Kate being able to get out of her cage? These others are not nice people, why would they let Kate stay with the person she "loves" and separate her from the one she doesn't? Not very othery. They wanted Jack to form a connection with Juliet...how would that happen if Jack and Kate were around each other? Ben knew full well that the only way Jack would give up and operate on him is if he had no other hope...which I think is why they NEEDED Kate to choose Sawyer...and manipulated her into it.

I'd give in on this if she thought that both of them were gonna die and she chose Sawyer, but thats NOT the way it happened. Looking at the words and the exposition, itd be very easy to think that Kate loves Sawyer, and she does on some level, but if she definitively chooses him, she'll be settling because she doesn't think she deserves Jack. Jack is the good guy that she always hurts (her HS sweetheart, Kevin) and she doesn't want to hurt Jack. But she does love him. Dialogue aside, if you really look at Kate during these last 6 eps...it couldn't be more obvious that she loves Jack.

-When Sawyer wants her to leave, RIGHT after she tells Sawyer she loves him so Pickett will stop, she throws a total Jack comment in his face.
-she refuses to work until she knows if Jack's okay.
-Kate and Sawyers kiss in TGB greatly mirrored Kate and Jack's kiss in WKD, only Kate is the one who initiated it that one, and this one had to be contrived by the Others. Without manipulation, its Kate and Jack.
-and last but not least...why the HELL would they go through all the trouble of making Kate and Jack have an obviously HUGE moment at the end of last season, with Sawyer doing nothing but looking on, if she was going to REALLY choose Sawyer?

I think the point is...that look said she loved Jack all by itself...and her "picking" Sawyer just proves how good at manipulation the others are.

aww come on. not trying to be insulting here and sorry if icome off that way but, its just hitting below the belt to blame one of the two possible ways that a romance could go on rating.

the whole point of a love triangle is that its a TRIANGLE and it can go either way and be completly genuine. your interpretation of it not being genuine doesnt nessicarily mean the writers and the producers wanted it to be so. it could be that you misinterpreted what they were showing. (i could be misinterpreting my feelings in favor of skate so it could go both ways) but the truth is that ONE of those two pairs is what they have in mind and our interpretations and guesses are only that. (even tho I think tonuight was PRETTY obvious, i could be completly wrong (doubt it tho)) but either way, just because something ends up not the way you expected it is NO reason to blame it on the ratings and try to take away from the opposite side being genuine. alot of jaters have been doing that latly, and to me it sends of the message of "sore loser" (as if thisis even a competition *rolls eyes*) its a TV show, for starters and therefore the characters are how the writers write them, not how we interpret them. if the writers deem it that she loves sawyer, then the characters does, if they deem she loves jack she loves jack and blaming it on the ratings or saying its not genuine and not the way its suppose to be is just not right.

aww come on. not trying to be insulting here and sorry if icome off that way but, its just hitting below the belt to blame one of the two possible ways that a romance could go on rating.

the whole point of a love triangle is that its a TRIANGLE and it can go either way and be completly genuine. your interpretation of it not being genuine doesnt nessicarily mean the writers and the producers wanted it to be so. it could be that you misinterpreted what they were showing. (i could be misinterpreting my feelings in favor of skate so it could go both ways) but the truth is that ONE of those two pairs is what they have in mind and our interpretations and guesses are only that. (even tho I think tonuight was PRETTY obvious, i could be completly wrong (doubt it tho)) but either way, just because something ends up not the way you expected it is NO reason to blame it on the ratings and try to take away from the opposite side being genuine. alot of jaters have been doing that latly, and to me it sends of the message of "sore loser" (as if thisis even a competition *rolls eyes*) its a TV show, for starters and therefore the characters are how the writers write them, not how we interpret them. if the writers deem it that she loves sawyer, then the characters does, if they deem she loves jack she loves jack and blaming it on the ratings or saying its not genuine and not the way its suppose to be is just not right.You can say as wish about us, but believing it wasn't done for the same reasons you think is my opinion & is neither right nor wrong. I don't believe it was genuine & I'm certain the same would be felt the other way if the situation was reversed. Lost is always written with room for interpretation, that's why there is a triangle. I found there to be things questionable tonight that does not convince me a choice was made is the sense of whom she is in love with.

Well, most importantly, Kate and Jack obviously have developed a bond and care a lot about each other, and to "close the door" on that would simply not make any sense. I do believe that this episode "closed the door" on any romantic aspects of Jack and Kate's relationship, however.
\

Point taken! I think there's a good chance you are right but they'll do a romance between Kate and Jack after Kate's character fleshes out more.

Princeex86, I love that you said this because I can lead into my point with it. From the second Kate saw Jack he was back on her mind. You could tell Juliett wasn't happy about taking Kate to see Jack. What could the reason possibly for them separating Jack from Kate and Sawyer and constantly throwing out suggestive comments to both of them? For whatever reason, they don't WANT Kate with Jack, they want her with Sawyer. If they'd have put Jack in that cage all season, the same thing would have happened. Kate tried to free Sawyer because she knew they were going to kill him...she knew Jack was safe, not only that, but that they needed him so they weren't going to hurt him. They never got to it, but I'm betting she wouldn't have left him if Sawyer had chosen to run for it.

and what reason could they possibly have for wanting sawyer and kate together? i mean i find it funny how you try to bring up a logical point of why would they when you bring up and even more illogical and not even hinted at point about the others playing match maker. is there a direct benefit from this? i think not. so why would the writers waste the time of putting that in there? locke: theres a fine line between really cleaver writing...and wishful thinking ^.^

and betting she wouldnt have chosen to run for it is still a bet, and contray to what she said both times.

This entire mini season, the Others have been throwing Sawyer at Kate, from the first time Ben implied that she loved Sawyer because she said his name first at the breakfast table. They have created situation after situation to bring Kate and Sawyer together...she would have never said I love you if it wasn't for Sawyer constantly getting the crap beat out of him, regardless of whether or not she meant it. Why would they be okay with Kate being able to get out of her cage? These others are not nice people, why would they let Kate stay with the person she "loves" and separate her from the one she doesn't? Not very othery. They wanted Jack to form a connection with Juliet...how would that happen if Jack and Kate were around each other? Ben knew full well that the only way Jack would give up and operate on him is if he had no other hope...which I think is why they NEEDED Kate to choose Sawyer...and manipulated her into it.

they were ok with it cuz they didnt know it. no one was watching the moniters except ben for one second who i dont think really cared because he was more owrried about staying alive. and the others kept kate and sawyer together cuz they werent as important hostages as jack. they needed jack in isolation to break him to get him to do the surgery, has nothing to do with the love triangle why they seperated them.

I'd give in on this if she thought that both of them were gonna die and she chose Sawyer, but thats NOT the way it happened. Looking at the words and the exposition, itd be very easy to think that Kate loves Sawyer, and she does on some level, but if she definitively chooses him, she'll be settling because she doesn't think she deserves Jack. Jack is the good guy that she always hurts (her HS sweetheart, Kevin) and she doesn't want to hurt Jack. But she does love him. Dialogue aside, if you really look at Kate during these last 6 eps...it couldn't be more obvious that she loves Jack.

well again this whole thing about its cuz shes settling is all opinion. and also a low blow hit which seems to be happening alot latly. icould jsut as easily say "if she chooses jack its only cuz the writers went with the whole hero heroine idea!" i mean come on. and sawyer isnt the con man and jerk he once was, he's becoming a hero himself. and is willing to sacrifice himself to save kate.

i think it could be way more obvious she loves jack if thats what they were going for. at least aknowledge that fact that your a jater and everythign you see will make you think so. (no offense intended)

now on the other hand i watch lost with people who arent either, and not ONE of them even picked up there was a love triangle in the last few episodes until i told them. they all immediatly saw that she was going with sawyer. i think if you put the biasys aside, its more obvious to the average person who her choice is.

also...if you put all dialoge aside...youve got nothing but looks. and she looks at sawyer ALOT more than jack. ^.^

-When Sawyer wants her to leave, RIGHT after she tells Sawyer she loves him so Pickett will stop, she throws a total Jack comment in his face.

well...we see how well that comment held up tonight ^.^ not to mention tonights flashback obviously showed why she is afraid to say that to anyone

-she refuses to work until she knows if Jack's okay.

you think it wouldnt be the same if situations were reversed? sides any friends would want to know were their friends were.

-Kate and Sawyers kiss in TGB greatly mirrored Kate and Jack's kiss in WKD, only
Kate is the one who initiated it that one, and this one had to be contrived by the Others. Without manipulation, its Kate and Jack.
actually without manipulation its kate hollucinating, kissing him because hes comforting her,...realizing what she did and running away. when its kate and sawyer, its her spending the whole night in his cage. ^.^


-and last but not least...why the HELL would they go through all the trouble of making Kate and Jack have an obviously HUGE moment at the end of last season, with Sawyer doing nothing but looking on, if she was going to REALLY choose Sawyer?

all jaters interpret that as a look of love when 9 out of 10 random viewers (i have actually recorded this) think of that as a "what the hell did you get us into" or "whats going to happen to us" look. especially considering how jack suppose to make her feel safe...yet he gets her captured cuz he lied? i think that could have been a look of "way to go" and sawyer was looking on cuz he was not to happy either.

I think the point is...that look said she loved Jack all by itself...and her "picking" Sawyer just proves how good at manipulation the others are.

uh...looks dont say anything definatly, EPSECIALLY for fans on this show. *rolls eyes* theyre up to interpreations. and until you have further proof or evidence on that point the others wanted them together, i dont think you have a case there at all.

uh...looks dont say anything definatly, EPSECIALLY for fans on this show. *rolls eyes* theyre up to interpreations. and until you have further proof or evidence on that point the others wanted them together, i dont think you have a case there at all.Those same things are what are being said to prove the choice. The looks, the music, the touches. Kate did not say I love you. She slept with him & there's a distinction imo. She is as worried about Jack as she is Sawyer. So if sex is the "proof" I don't find that definitive except for physically.

You can say as wish about us & call us names, but believing it wasn't done for the same reasons you think is my opinion & is neither right nor wrong. I don't believe it was genuine & I'm certain the same would be felt the other way if the situation was reversed. Lost is always written with room for interpretation, that's why there is a triangle. I found there to be things questionable tonight that does not convince me a choice was made is the sense of whom she is IN love with. Sex just doesn't mean love to me.

imnot calling you names. but its getting a tad bit below the belt when people go out of the realm of the show because they arent happy with the love triangle and blame the writers, the ratings or the situations on how the characters end up. (unless theres actual cause for it like with AAA and eko)

and if the same would be felt then my comment to them would be the same. dont blame the fact your interetation was wrong on the ratings! ^.^

and your right there is always room for interpreation as there is in a book, but it gets to a point when the interpreatation is WRONG for exampe, if at the end of the series kate and sawyer got married and as she was walking down the isle and gave jack a passing glance and peoples interpreations of that were "OMG That look said she really doenst love sawyer and is only doing it because she feels bad and will divorce him in a year and marry jack" then thats when the interepation is obviously wrong.

because the real RIGHT and WRONG answers of interpreation come along with EVENTS. and when events are set in stone (NOT SAYING tonights were) but when they are set in stone, and you still try to argue it, then your wrong.

the other thing is that even after its set in stone, or some people think its set in stone then they go off on "well thats not genuine or theyll never be truley happy or its a wrong choice yadda yadda" all because they think their view is the onyl vriew. if the writers put it there with an intended happy ending...then its right. PERIOD.

How happy am I to be back in this thread again? :frown: You all are not here to talk about each other, or each other's ships. Can I make that any clearer? The namecalling and insults are to stop now.

Those same things are what are being said to prove the choice. The looks, the music, the touches. Kate did not say I love you. She slept with him & there's a distinction imo. She is as worried about Jack as she is Sawyer. So if sex is the "proof" I don't find that definitive except for physically.

yes well while many people say i love you but done, just as many dont say i love you but do.

and sex doesnt mean love to me either.

but if you wanna go with looks, shes had way more "interpretive" looks with sawyer than with jack for obvious reasons but still so. you can take that scene with jack any way you wish, but to me, (and all the people watching the show with me) it was like she was crying cuz she was begging for the life of the man she loves.

and i think thats what the writers wanted the average viewer to see, because thats what at least from what ive seen. the average viewer took it as.
100%
How happy am I to be back in this thread again? :frown: You all are not here to talk about each other, or each other's ships. Can I make that any clearer? The namecalling and insults are to stop now.

i dont know if you were referring to me or not, but im sorry if i came off in any way as instulting, it was not my intent.

imnot calling you names. but its getting a tad bit below the belt when people go out of the realm of the show because they arent happy with the love triangle and blame the writers, the ratings or the situations on how the characters end up. (unless theres actual cause for it like with AAA and eko)

and if the same would be felt then my comment to them would be the same. dont blame the fact your interetation was wrong on the ratings! ^.^

and your right there is always room for interpretation as there is in a book, but it gets to a point when the interpretation is WRONG for exampe, if at the end of the series kate and sawyer got married and as she was walking down the isle and gave jack a passing glance and peoples interpreations of that were "OMG That look said she really doenst love sawyer and is only doing it because she feels bad and will divorce him in a year and marry jack" then thats when the interepation is obviously wrong.

because the real RIGHT and WRONG answers of interpreation come along with EVENTS. and when events are set in stone (NOT SAYING tonights were) but when they are set in stone, and you still try to argue it, then your wrong.

the other thing is that even after its set in stone, or some people think its set in stone then they go off on "well thats not genuine or theyll never be truley happy or its a wrong choice yadda yadda" all because they think their view is the onyl vriew. if the writers put it there with an intended happy ending...then its right. PERIOD.Princee, this thread is called "But Kate loves Jack". Which is questioning the decision that was made to have Kate sleep with Sawyer. That includes examining the motives for the reasons the writers made that choice. So I do not think it is below any belt or outside the realm of the show to discuss the points I made. The same would be true on the rate the ep thread on which ppl talk about the show AND creative decisions.

Your interpretation of the material feels a choice was made, Mine does not. Time will tell but there are other ppl aside from declared Jaters on this thread who feel the same as I do. Are they wrong too because they're sore losers since their interpretation of the material is different from your own?

ETA^

Since there's more boys than girls on this show, and people are capable of loving more than one person at a time.... why can't Kate love BOTH Sawyer & Jack?

I think Kate's feelings for each man are complicated. She's attracted to both and they all have been through a lot together which creates a bond. So she had sex with Sawyer and there's definitely a sense of deep caring for one another. But she still cares for Jack too. I don't think she wants to hurt him romantically and of course she has no idea that Jack has seen her with Sawyer all cuddly in the cage.

I've argued over a lot of ships, and I think this whole 'average viewer' thing is crap. I'm an average viewer, and I saw love between kate and jack. I think jaters (as well as skaters) are intelligent people, and we're gonna know it if the writing's on the wall. I think the biggest indicator that it IS still up in the air is that SO many people are still talking about it. normally what you get after the definitive end of a triangle is a lot of insulting the winner. In this case, that would be sawyer, but thats not what's happening here. What's happening is a lot of people presenting very VALID arguments from both sides. I totally understand people arguing for their ships....but if it was supposed to be so obvious...this many people wouldn't be making valid points.

Summertime, you bring up a fair enough point that the Others have manipulated the circumstances in a way that was very much in favor of Sawyer and Kate growing closer. That being said, I don't think that cheapens what has since happened between them in any way. I wouldn't be surprised if the Others have their reasons for wanting Sawyer and Kate to "hook up," so-to-speak, but even if they have ulterior motives in separating them from Jack, I don't think that really has anything to do with who Kate chose or why. I think it's a detriment to the character to suggest that Kate was "manipulated" into choosing Sawyer. She is a strong person who is capable of making a decision about who she loves and who she wants to be with, regardless of the circumstances of her current physical location. I don't think that mere proximity had anything to do with Kate choosing to consummate her relationship with Sawyer, and that if you're assuming that, you must not have a very high opinion of Kate! The circumstances were stressful enough to force her feelings to the forefront, but they didn't create them out of thin air.

I'd give in on this if she thought that both of them were gonna die and she chose Sawyer, but thats NOT the way it happened. Looking at the words and the exposition, itd be very easy to think that Kate loves Sawyer, and she does on some level, but if she definitively chooses him, she'll be settling because she doesn't think she deserves Jack.I don't think Kate is "settling" by choosing Sawyer. I think he's more than proven himself to be worthy of her love. He might not be conventionally "noble" in the sense that Jack is, but he'll do absolutely anything for her, and I think that makes him more than deserving of all the affection she has to give.

-and last but not least...why the HELL would they go through all the trouble of making Kate and Jack have an obviously HUGE moment at the end of last season, with Sawyer doing nothing but looking on, if she was going to REALLY choose Sawyer?If you're talking about the so-called "look," I think it's a moot point. If you're going to place huge amounts of significance on mere eye-contact, I don't think you can reasonably assign some deep and important meaning to the look between Kate and Jack at the end of LT,DA and completely brush aside the numerous very deep looks exchanged between Sawyer and Kate in this episode. That's a double standard, is it not?


Your interpretation of the material feels a choice was made, Mine does not.


So, with all due respect, what do you make of Damon and Carlton saying that this episode was about Kate's choice between the two men? I'm not under the impression that they just toss words about, so I believe them when they say that Kate made a definitive, emotional, physical choice in this episode.

the other thing is that even after its set in stone, or some people think its set in stone then they go off on "well thats not genuine or theyll never be truley happy or its a wrong choice yadda yadda" all because they think their view is the onyl vriew. if the writers put it there with an intended happy ending...then its right. PERIOD.

Well, if we have more Jack and Kate touching scenes, kisses or camera tricks with their profiles overlapping I'll bet we'll question the conclusion. Truly, if Kate had told Sawyer she loved him and the scene with she and Jack was stale, we would be singing a different tune.

Since there's more boys than girls on this show, and people are capable of loving more than one person at a time.... why can't Kate love BOTH Sawyer & Jack?

I think Kate's feelings for each man are complicated. She's attracted to both and they all have been through a lot together which creates a bond. So she had sex with Sawyer and there's definitely a sense of deep caring for one another. But she still cares for Jack too. I don't think she wants to hurt him romantically and of course she has no idea that Jack has seen her with Sawyer all cuddly in the cage.


I agree with this. And I'm about tired of Kate wanting her cake and eating too. I don't think she's ever going to really choose until someone gives her an ultimatum, which sucks, but right now, its the way it is.

I've argued over a lot of ships, and I think this whole 'average viewer' thing is crap. I'm an average viewer, and I saw love between kate and jack. I think jaters (as well as skaters) are intelligent people, and we're gonna know it if the writing's on the wall. I think the biggest indicator that it IS still up in the air is that SO many people are still talking about it. normally what you get after the definitive end of a triangle is a lot of insulting the winner. In this case, that would be sawyer, but thats not what's happening here. What's happening is a lot of people presenting very VALID arguments from both sides. I totally understand people arguing for their ships....but if it was supposed to be so obvious...this many people wouldn't be making valid points.

It's good to have a non-biased viewpoint. :)

Summertime, you bring up a fair enough point that the Others have manipulated the circumstances in a way that was very much in favor of Sawyer and Kate growing closer. That being said, I don't think that cheapens what has since happened between them in any way. I wouldn't be surprised if the Others have their reasons for wanting Sawyer and Kate to "hook up," so-to-speak, but even if they have ulterior motives in separating them from Jack, I don't think that really has anything to do with who Kate chose or why. I think it's a detriment to the character to suggest that Kate was "manipulated" into choosing Sawyer. She is a strong person who is capable of making a decision about who she loves and who she wants to be with, regardless of the circumstances of her current physical location. I don't think that mere proximity had anything to do with Kate choosing to consummate her relationship with Sawyer, and that if you're assuming that, you must not have a very high opinion of Kate! The circumstances were stressful enough to force her feelings to the forefront, but they didn't create them out of thin air.

I don't think Kate is "settling" by choosing Sawyer. I think he's more than proven himself to be worthy of her love. He might not be conventionally "noble" in the sense that Jack is, but he'll do absolutely anything for her, and I think that makes him more than deserving of all the affection she has to give.
If you're talking about the so-called "look," I think it's a moot point. If you're going to place huge amounts of significance on mere eye-contact, I don't think you can reasonably assign some deep and important meaning to the look between Kate and Jack at the end of LT,DA and completely brush aside the numerous very deep looks exchanged between Sawyer and Kate in this episode. That's a double standard, is it not?

thanks angela! I appreciate this response:) I agree that there have been many looks between both skate and jate, but personally, I place more meaning on this particular look because it was the very last time we saw them last season, and it was probably the most intense position they had been in, up to that point. And when it came down to it, she looked at Jack for comfort instead of Sawyer. But thats just my interpretation...you're is valid too.

I absolutely think it cheapens their hookup to have it manipulated so much. Honestly, if I was a skater, or it was the same situation with Jack and Kate, I'd be pissed. To me, for either couple, it doesn't do justice to the build up over the last two seasons.

I also think there are a lot of other situations and scenes that make the others look way smarter than they actually should be by lessening our losties characters....manipulating Kate is just one of them.

Princee, this thread is called "But Kate loves Jack". Which is questioning the decision that was made to have Kate sleep with Sawyer. That includes examining the motives for the reasons the writers made that choice. So I do not think it is below any belt or outside the realm of the show to discuss the points I made. The same would be true on the rate the ep thread on which ppl talk about the show AND creative decisions.

Your interpretation of the material feels a choice was made, Mine does not. Time will tell but there are other ppl aside from declared Jaters on this thread who feel the same as I do. Are they wrong too because they're sore losers since their interpretation of the material is different from your own?

ETA^
i never once said my interpeation is right and yours is wrong. i said that its folly to assume the show has midigating circusmatnces that must have compromised it in the event that your interpretation doesnt seem to be the one they go with.

aka if they write out skate to be the one "well they only did that cuz people wanna see sawyer topless" or if they choose jater eople saying "well they did that cuz they felt the hero heroine typical plot would get better ratings!" cuz it could go either way and would never hold any ground to anyone and also can get insulting if not treated very carefully.

and note that im not even saying skate is set in stone after tonight, of course it isnt, this is lost. but i think its where its at right now and where its gonna be for awhile. but if my interpreation turns out to be worng, im not gonna blame the ratings.

heh but yo uknow after seeing tonights ep maybe your all right. maybe jate is fate!! not jate as in jack and kate but jate as in JAMES and kate!!! =jate!! ^.^ (she did call him james for the first time. hehehe)

Truly, if Kate had told Sawyer she loved him and the scene with she and Jack was stale, we would be singing a different tune.

I doubt it. When it comes to shipping, people on both sides are always going to see things how they want to. Even if Kate had came out and said "I love you," there are still people who would not be convinced and I'm sure people would be making the argument that Kate said that to her husband and we see how well that turned out.

It seems like the writers can't win any way you slice it; short of killing off one of the three of them I don't suppose there will ever be a consensus about who loves whom, and I don't think even that would end it. :drowsy: There'd still be people arguing that even though so-and-so is dead, she's still in love with him, etc.

I doubt it. When it comes to shipping, people on both sides are always going to see things how they want to. Even if Kate had came out and said "I love you," there are still people who would not be convinced and I'm sure people would be making the argument that Kate said that to her husband and we see how well that turned out.

It seems like the writers can't win any way you slice it; short of killing off one of the three of them I don't suppose there will ever be a consensus about who loves whom, and I don't think even that would end it. :drowsy: There'd still be people arguing that even though so-and-so is dead, she's still in love with him, etc.

I disagree. I love the show as a whole and there are many who can live with a decision and move on. I'm not saying I wouldn't be upset, but there are real indicators both ways,

I agree...I still think she's in love with Jack.

It's just interesting we never saw the conversation that transpired between Kate/Juliet en route to the Hydra. Then the look on Kates face when she saw Jack spoke volumes.

I think she is conning Sawyer paralleling it to her FB's. Juliet told her she had to play Sawyer or Jack would die.... I just noticed she kissed Sawyer to distract him & never said I love you. And then obviously in the end scene she couldn't leave Jack like she couldn't her husband.

Something else is going on imo because Kate's behavior in sleeping with Sawyer is contradictory to how she's rejected his advances this season in addition to the confession withdrawal.

Whuh?

When did Juliet tell her to play Sawyer? When did Kate kiss Sawyer to distract him? And ...she DID leave her husband....Something is "going on" because she maybe didn't mean her confession withdrawal ( as in the tender way she stared into his eyes, cupped his face and kissed him so sweetly he fell back smiling in satisfaction)...or because she not only stopped rejecting his advances, but made advances of her own? I can say this because I've been shipping too, but this shipping thing really doesn't let anyone take a show for what it's worth. This was NOT a question to any of the six actual non shippers I saw the show with . (All of whom found it very annoying for other reasons, sad to say, though nothing to do with the sex.)

Love isn't just a word. It's an action. The love for Sawyer was everywhere on Kate's face the entire episode, and in all her actions. But she does love Jack too, in the way one loves a father or friend. She couldn't leave without him either.

I know the writers were throwing a piece of coal into the shipper wars by having her say "I can't leave you" to Jack while crying hysterically over Sawyer and staring straight at Sawyer. Apparently this is a fun game for them.

But it just makes me tired. Anyone who can spin these hamster wheels until February has my respect for their stamina. I'm just happy they gave us such a tender love scene, with emotions as simple and pure as could be. TPTB laughing at us by throwing shippers a bone in the last second? I'm not playing. It's too exhausting.

I agree w/everything you're saying..that's why it bugs me that he knows Sawyer is with Kate and yet he says run Kate run but does not mention Sawyer.

Edit: If Jack would have said "Kate you take Sawyer and run" this would imply that Jack has conceded, he would give himself up for the benefit of the both of them, thus spurring Kate's affection for Jack. Kate's affection for Jack was implied by the way it did unfold, I just think this would have made it more definite.
I think a small thing that folks are overlooking here is that we, the viewers, know that Kate and Sawyer and near each other at the moment Jack talks to Kate on the walkie-talkie, but Jack doesn't necessarily. He talks to Kate who for all the knows is by herself at that point, Jack certainly doesn't know that Sawyer is in danger right then either.

There is a big thread discussing the promo where they showed the Jack/Kate scene in the spoiler section. There was a big debate over Jack yelling at Kate after he found out that she was brought there to convince Jack to operate. Many people were upset that he yelled at her so harshly and how could she ever love him when he treats her that way, etc. The one thing I noticed last night was that right before the Skate scene, Sawyer was saying horrible things to Kate. I dont think there can be an arguement anymore that Kate is too sensitive to what people say to her.

I agree...I still think she's in love with Jack.

It's just interesting we never saw the conversation that transpired between Kate/Juliet en route to the Hydra. Then the look on Kates face when she saw Jack spoke volumes.

I think she is conning Sawyer paralleling it to her FB's. Juliet told her she had to play Sawyer or Jack would die.... I just noticed she kissed Sawyer to distract him & never said I love you. And then obviously in the end scene she couldn't leave Jack like she couldn't her husband.

Something else is going on imo because Kate's behavior in sleeping with Sawyer is contradictory to how she's rejected his advances this season in addition to the confession withdrawal.
I think the confession withdrawal needs to be put into context. She pleaded with Sawyer several times to be open with her and he kept refusing. They're usually honest with each other so that confused her. Knowing he was scared by whatever they'd done was scaring her more than anything that had been done to them so far... in her own words. When she was trying to break the lock, and pleading with him one more time, asking tearfully, "What did they do to you?" Sawyer literally, pysically pushed her away from his cage. Kate was hurt and angry, and she lashed out to reject him by taking back her earlier words.

She is through running, and she is through leaving the people she loves and cares about behind. The man she loves in on his knees in dire peril, and the one she admires and cares for is somewhere else, also at the mercy of these maniacs. Both are telling her to save herself and leave them behind, and she's standing tall and refusing to do that. She's determined to save both of them, Sawyer out of love, and Jack out of loyalty. It shows how much her character has grown that she's so determined to make a stand and not run, IMO.

Angela, you're right. And I think the writers realize this too.

having it end with Kate screaming desperately that she won't leave Jack

I kind of thought that as Kate was yelling, she was looking at Sawyer. She may have been talking to Jack, and I'm sure the character doesn't want to leave Jack to the hands of the Others, but I think she meant she wouldn't leave without Sawyer.

I write romance novels and I'm totally into the Kate/Sawyer shipping news.

I've been unimpressed with Jack--until this episode. He was a cold-hearted SOB to Benry and that rocked. I think I read on a thread: Jack is back. I agree.

Can I just point out to everyone that when the writers said Kate would make her choice, they never said they'd tell us what it was.

yep that's me ;)

When did juliette not tell Kate? We didn't see their conversation en route to the Hydra. And they left Kate's ep with a cliffhanger it was not a stand alone with full resolution. Why even have a cliffhanger that way if her choice was clear?

She couldn't leave w/o Jack but she could leave her husband which I would say was supposed to parallel Sawyer' in this ep. But she also conned her husband thus where is the final FB/real island time juxtaposition that a Lost ep always ends with were she not conning Sawyer as well?
Everything about the FB was set up in contrast to what's happening on the island IMO, and that played all the way through. However much she loved her husband, he didn't know the real her so it was all built on sand. No matter how many times she said she loved him, it couldn't change that fact and in the end, she left him. Sawyer does know her and what they have is real. She already said she loved him, several times in HIS episode. It was Sawyer's turn to tell her he loves her in HER episode. She's the one who inititated everything, the kissing and the lovemaking. And she gave him her answer with her eyes and her kiss, when he tentatively raised the subject of what she'd said about loving him. She looked so content, she had to rouse herself mentally and pysically to give him that response, then she tucked her head back under his chin and nuzzled him till she found just her right spot again. And Sawyer was real and vulnerable with her as we've never seen him before, he's stopped protecting his heart from her and put it all out there with his "I love you too." Both characters have grown so much in this mini-series, as have Jack and Locke for that matter.

She told Sawyer to stop checking her out which is in contrast to how she wanted Jack to be. She rolled her eyes at Sawyer repeatedly, glared & was offended at his dress comments, he kissed her, in the past she was forced to kiss him, was forced to say she loved him to stop the beating & here again tonight did not retract her retraction by saying I love you back...Also we haven't seen Kate initiate sexually based physicality with Sawyer until suddenly tonight.
Again, context is being omitted. She was flirting with Jack in the "Are you checking me out?" scene, way back in early season 1. She's chopping rocks in the hot sun when Sawyer is checking her out, but that's Sawyer and she's not remotely bothered by him. She didn't even have to turn around to know that's what he was doing when Pickett told him to get moving again. LOL! She's flirted plenty with Sawyer as at other times. And as for physciality between them check out WKD because from that episode onward - after resolving her Wayne transference issues - she is totally relaxed with Sawyer physically. The whole haircut scene is about her having a chance to be near and touch him, and she's just about giddy with how happy she is with him. She threw a banana in his lap, for Pete's sake! She knew exactly what kind of innuendo was in that gesture and she flirted with him and stood very close when he stood up. The physicality is there if you're willing to see it. Relationships aren't linear. Just because she flirted with Jack in S1, it doesn't imply a promise of some kind if her feelings take a different turn later. And the cage scene after the kiss is all about flirting. She was worried that he was just courting trouble by having kissed her and then relieved and impressed when she realized he had his head on straight and actually had a plan. Her expressions during that strawberries/fish biscuit exchange are all about flirting... and thinking about other kisses in other circumstances.

When she wouldn't leave Sawyer & climbed back in the cage it was viewed in some opinions as confirmation of her being in love w/him despite her retraction. As I mentioned above I would have thought Sawyer would have been the one she'd have told Jack she couldn't leave without not him. It was in contrast & a direct parallel imo to her being able to leave her husband.
I really don't know where you're seeing that because she wouldn't even let Sawyer out of her sight through this entire episode. The only time she did was to go with Juliet because she said she had a way to save Sawyer's life. When Pickett came, she placed herself in front of him, still holding his hand. She was going nowhere without Sawyer at any time in this episode.

I just can't see where you think this "con" of hers started. Their whole argument was about needing to run. She broke that lock on his cage and said "We're getting out of here." Yet with the cage door wide open, she chooses to kiss him and initiate lovemaking with him. Right there and then, she is free emotionally with this man that she's fallen in love with, that we've been seeing her falling in love with - and resist - over the last two years. As they're cuddling, she is lying there naked, with just his shirt to cover her. There are no pretenses between them. Their scenes are full of symbolism about their feelings for each other.

I think the confession withdrawal needs to be put into context. She pleaded with Sawyer several times to be open with her and he kept refusing. They're usually honest with each other so that confused her. Knowing he was scared by whatever they'd done was scaring her more than anything that had been done to them so far... in her own words. When she was trying to break the lock, and pleading with him one more time, asking tearfully, "What did they do to you?" Sawyer literally, pysically pushed her away from his cage. Kate was hurt and angry, and she lashed out to reject him by taking back her earlier words.

She is through running, and she is through leaving the people she loves and cares about behind. The man she loves in on his knees in dire peril, and the one she admires and cares for is somewhere else, also at the mercy of these maniacs. Both are telling her to save herself and leave them behind, and she's standing tall and refusing to do that. She's determined to save both of them, Sawyer out of love, and Jack out of loyalty. It shows how much her character has grown that she's so determined to make a stand and not run, IMO.

I couldn't agree with you more. While it is exciting to have lots of plot developments, this show is largely about character development. And Jack, Kate, and Sawyer have all grown and strengthened as the story has progressed. For Sawyer, to kneel down, not fight back, and sacrifice himself to appease Pickett and save Kate is a noble, unselfish, brave act that, up until now, Sawyer was not capable of. For Kate to not run is a big change for her. And for Jack, to know Kate and Sawyer were together and still take a bold step to protect them all, was strength he has not shown recently.

Kate can 'love' Jack and want him out safe and still be 'in love' with Sawyer. The two things aren't mutually exclusive.

I'm not saying a definite yes she is or no she's not in love with this one or that one...just saying she gives a crap and wants both of them to escape.

I couldn't agree with you more. While it is exciting to have lots of plot developments, this show is largely about character development. And Jack, Kate, and Sawyer have all grown and strengthened as the story has progressed. For Sawyer, to kneel down, not fight back, and sacrifice himself to appease Pickett and save Kate is a noble, unselfish, brave act that, up until now, Sawyer was not capable of. For Kate to not run is a big change for her. And for Jack, to know Kate and Sawyer were together and still take a bold step to protect them all, was strength he has not shown recently.

Excellent summary!

It did seem like Jack came to a kind of acceptance and peace with Kate and Sawyer. Unlike what I'd assumed from yesterday's spoilers, he was clearly trying to get them both out. And he had to have cooperated with someone (likely Juliet) to know that Pickett would be heading towards the cages with the walky talky...Not the best plan. Would have been better to do a more traditional negotiation. As in, let them go, and when I see they're out, I'll do your operation. Would have made much more sense. But wouldn't have let them toy with shippers like dingle bunnies.

The more I think about it, the more I realize how inane this debate will be. She made love to the man. Lovingly. She looked into his eyes and kissed him as tenderly as anyone ever has when he asked if she loved him. And she wasn't leaving his side unless one or both of them was dead. As in "I'll do anything" "Get your hands off him" etc. They even had her stare at Sawyer while she spoke into the phone to Jack about not leaving "you".

It's good she wouldn't leave Jack either. He deserves that loyalty. But I really can't believe this is going to be considered as a serious open question who Kate actually chose. I can tell you for sure, no one I watched with had any doubts. It defies common sense.

Kate can 'love' Jack and want him out safe and still be 'in love' with Sawyer. The two things aren't mutually exclusive.

I'm not saying a definite yes she is or no she's not in love with this one or that one...just saying she gives a crap and wants both of them to escape.

Nicely sums it up, elfdream.

Of course Kate isn't going to want to leave Jack behind, at the hands of maniacs...he's her friend, she cares about him!

However, it looks like she is going to choose to run with Sawyer. For a time, anyway. The promo gives us the answer. She FINALLY takes a stand against the Others, her face hardening, her teeth gritting, right before she makes a move to turn the tables on the Other with a gun to her back. Next shot shows her running through the jungle with Sawyer in tow, aiming Pickett's gun behind him.
I really can't see how it's even a debate. She does love Jack, no question. But she fell in love with Sawyer. And she doesn't want to leave EITHER of them behind at the mercy of those crazy, gun-toting Others. :smile:

It did seem like Jack came to a kind of acceptance and peace with Kate and Sawyer. Unlike what I'd assumed from yesterday's spoilers, he was clearly trying to get them both out. And he had to have cooperated with someone (likely Juliet) to know that Pickett would be heading towards the cages with the walky talky...Not the best plan. Would have been better to do a more traditional negotiation. As in, let them go, and when I see they're out, I'll do your operation. Would have made much more sense. But wouldn't have let them toy with shippers like dingle bunnies.

The more I think about it, the more I realize how inane this debate will be. She made love to the man. Lovingly. She looked into his eyes and kissed him as tenderly as anyone ever has when he asked if she loved him. And she wasn't leaving his side unless one or both of them was dead. As in "I'll do anything" "Get your hands off him" etc. They even had her stare at Sawyer while she spoke into the phone to Jack about not leaving "you".

It's good she wouldn't leave Jack either. He deserves that loyalty. But I really can't believe this is going to be considered as a serious open question who Kate actually chose. I can tell you for sure, no one I watched with had any doubts. It defies common sense.
Spoilers didn't do Jack justice at all, IMO. He was awesome. I think he simply figured out that because he was was doing the surgery, i.e. the thing they brought him there for, that both Kate and Sawyer (the bait) would be redundant and could be killed off. Hence his somewhat desperate strategy.

What I loved about the episode is that it showcased how much all three of these characters have grown. Jack, who was obsessed over Sarah's new man, is able to take in Kate's choice and let go of any jealousy, instead going so far as to put his own life on the line to let her and Sawyer get to safety. Sawyer, who has been the most selfish of men all his life, has had every drop of selfishness wrung out of him by his love for Kate. His determination to keep people at a distance has finally crumbled and he has let Kate in and told her that he loves her. He won't risk them hurting her and he surrenders himself to be executed. Kate, who has been running since she was a girl is making her stand for the man she's in love with and for the friend that she admires and loves. She's not leaving anyone she cares about behind again... as she left Diane and Tom at a young age, and as she has continued to do until now. It's poignant and powerful that this god-forsaken island in the middle of nowhere has become the crucible for so much personal growth for these three complicated and engaging people. I can't wait to see what happens next!

Right there and then, she is free emotionally with this man that she's fallen in love with, that she's been falling in love with for two years
Except that it's only been, what, a couple of months in their world? Not that it would not be possible, especially given the circumstances, but hardly the same thing.

Someone mentioned that the word "consummation", as given by the authors, was only fitting in the context of love as opposed to friendship, but it seems to me that it could also be the climax (as it were :biggrin: ) to a profound sexual tension.

I don't doubt that Kate's feelings for Sawyer are as strong as any she has had for a man before...and maybe even more intense, seeing as how they are sort of cut from the same cloth as opposed to the "nice" guys we have seen in her flashbacks...And I don't doubt that their "consummation" was something inevitable. I just am not convinced that the fact that she made that choice under those circumstances means that Sawyer is "forever". Plus which, it shows that the men she seems to truly fall in love with when left to her own devices ARE the nice ones. Yeah, she runs away from them, but part of that was thrust on her in the wake of a couple of bad decisions.

The scenario WAS just about completely manipulated by the Others, and if the tables had been turned, it would be just as easy to imagine her making the same decision in response to Jack. She has definitely developed a bond...maybe love...with both of them, and is attracted to them both. Her reaction to Sawyer is, admittedly, more intense, but that's also the sort of thing that often burns itself out...

Maybe I'm just projecting because I would personally have gone with Jack. Then again, I would personally have gone with Locke, so I should probably just shut up.
Anyway...just my two cents.

Maybe I'm just projecting because I would personally have gone with Jack.

Sad to say, that's what most of us do. Which makes us such easy prey for TPTB to play with us like little shipping monkeys. I'm glad there's a break coming up because it begins to feel like a kind of insanity at times.

What's funny about Lost is it's really mostly very simple. There are rarely hidden plots. Like the way people have been desperately trying to imagine what happened at Ben's breakfast with Kate. What happened? Nothing! But no one will give up on it. Somewhere along the line Lost got a rep as a "twisty" show, and if it ever was, it isn't anymore. It's actually very straightforward.

A woman makes passionate love to a man and then tells their mutual friend that she won't leave without him being able to escape as well...And the ships are off to the races. There's no twist here, just common sense emotions, but TPTB, laughing behind their hands, lurking at the Fuse, knew exactly how it would play with this rareified end of their fanbase. Most fans never even took note of it, nor most critics who've so far reviewed the episode.

i agree that kate does choose sawyer here, but in the long run i think that this will be a good thing for jaters as its been said many times that this choice is TEMPORARY which leaves me thninking that later she does realise that she ma love sawyer to pieces and everything, but in the long run shes IN LOVE with jack.
think about it, imagine if she was placed with jack, i meen under the curmumstances kate would have been feeling extra close to whicher guy she was placed with. she wasnt given equal curcumstances with each guy to make a fair choice.
it kate chooses sawyer now then its only temporary, as soon as she sees jack closer to julliiet good old jelouse kate will be back and will relise how much jack means to her.

Kate may have feelings for Jack but does it really matter...... If I'm jack do I want second scraps?

Kate made her choice when she slept with Sawyer... I'm just happy Jack saw it with his own eyes. Now he can move past it (if he lives).

This EP only proved to place Jack in the "eveyman" part. How many of us men can Identify with Jack about now? In the end it will be a good thing for jack... The Kates and Anns choose the sawyers and Jack will have his Juliet.

I totally agree. I started a thread about the play on words going on this season (home, this island, love).

We were told that Kate loves Sawyer - and the spoiler was true - if you define "love" as a simple physical act.

We know that Kate doesn't want Sawyer killed. She does love him in a familial way. I think she also feels responsible to love him for some reason.

I believe we saw LOVE - the metaphysical type - in Jack's eyes when he saw Kate. I absolutely loved that scene.

We have the triangel we where promised. We know for a fact that Jack loves Kate and that Sawyer loves Kate. We know that Kate made love to Sawyer and that Jack feels betrayed by this and wants to leave the picture while securing her safety. We also know that Kate loves both men. She will not leave without either one.

How does Kate define "love" maybe that's her big question. When she finds the answer, I bet she dies!!

I totally agree. I started a thread about the play on words going on this season (home, this island, love).

We were told that Kate loves Sawyer - and the spoiler was true - if you define "love" as a simple physical act.

We know that Kate doesn't want Sawyer killed. She does love him in a familial way. I think she also feels responsible to love him for some reason.

I believe we saw LOVE - the metaphysical type - in Jack's eyes when he saw Kate. I absolutely loved that scene.

We have the triangel we where promised. We know for a fact that Jack loves Kate and that Sawyer loves Kate. We know that Kate made love to Sawyer and that Jack feels betrayed by this and wants to leave the picture while securing her safety. We also know that Kate loves both men. She will not leave without either one.

How does Kate define "love" maybe that's her big question. When she finds the answer, I bet she dies!!

You all have very strange definitions of familial love.

If Kate loves Jack, then why did she let Sawyer smash it up?

You all have very strange definitions of familial love.

No kidding! I'm glad I don't have THAT kind of family!

What's "metaphysical love" btw? Sounds kinky ;)

No kidding! I'm glad I don't have THAT kind of family!

What's "metaphysical love" btw? Sounds kinky ;)


OK, the accused is not me - it's Kate. Didn't we already see that Kate has a history of problems with the man that she blew up. Ya think? Who's ya daddy?

We have evidence that Shannon had a bit of this problem too.

"Metaphysical love" is just my way of saying "in love" or "love love".

And really, I used the term familial love just to have a word to use instead of "well, she loves him but doesn't love love him".

See words are tricky

Who knows? Kate may love both Jack and Sawyer.

Evie has already said Kates "choice" is "temporary" It's only a matter of time when Kate returns Jacks' love. He showed us that he loves her last night.

I just am not convinced that the fact that she made that choice under those circumstances means that Sawyer is "forever". Plus which, it shows that the men she seems to truly fall in love with when left to her own devices ARE the nice ones. Yeah, she runs away from them, but part of that was thrust on her in the wake of a couple of bad decisions.


So are you going on the assumption that Kate only chose to give herself completely, body and soul, to Sawyer because she was under duress and had no other male options?

Her way of dealing with the situation was to have sex with whichever man was closest?

The circumstances were intense, absolutely, but they did not breed any feelings or actions that were not already in place between S/K. All the circumstances did was bring those feelings out into the open, and cause both of them to at last acknowledge and act on those feelings.

To suggest otherwise is to suggest Kate's reasoning as: "oh, no, they're gonna kill Sawyer, and maybe me and maybe my true love Jack, who I am secretly pining for this entire time I've been making out with Sawyer and professing love for him and flirting with him, it's all me acting out under duress because I really love Jack, but Jack isn't here and Sawyer is, so I may as well have sex with him."

Um...

:confused:
100%
"Metaphysical love" is just my way of saying "in love" or "love love".


If you're counting "metaphysical love" as the look in Jack's eyes, then may I suggest you watch Kate's eyes carefully before she and Sawyer make love, and in the scene just after when he asks about her "I love you". She certainly does seem to be looking at him with her heart in her eyes, stripped utterly bare of all pretenses (metaphysically speaking, I mean... ;) )
100%
Evie has already said Kates "choice" is "temporary" It's only a matter of time when Kate returns Jacks' love. He showed us that he loves her last night.

The actors are given scripts two or three days in advance of shooting, so I wouldn't go by their words...they simply do not know where the story is ultimately headed. Only TPTB do. :smile:

So are you going on the assumption that Kate only chose to give herself completely, body and soul, to Sawyer because she was under duress and had no other male options?


Well, see, that's the problem. They left it open to interpretation. Of course all the Skaters will see it as Kate being madly in love with Sawyer. Which is their opinion they are more than entitled to have.

But by presenting Kate with the opportunity to say she loves Sawyer and having her not taking that opportunity and then having her obviously still care very very much for Jack, TPTB left it open for interpretation. Of course it seems like an open and shut case for the Skaters, and I don't mean that in a negative way or anything, but it's not the only interpretation of those scenes.

I guess I just don't buy that, figuring five seasons, Kate and Sawyer are going to be go and be happy and together for over two and a half seasons. Their relationship was fueled by sexual tension and with that gone... I don't know. We will see. But I don't think it's so ridiculous to think that Sawyer and Kate won't last.

You mean to tell me you don't KNOW that it's temporary? Kate had sex with Sawyer. What more do you think they can do with these two? They had sexual tension. Now that that's gone, there's nothing left. She couldn't even tell the guy that she loved him when she had the chance. We waited for that and it didn't happen. There is a reason. Even though Skate "happened" for now, there were so many Jate things going on in this episode.

Zoewashburn- I agree with you totally. Read what I just said.

So are you going on the assumption that Kate only chose to give herself completely, body and soul, to Sawyer because she was under duress and had no other male options?

Her way of dealing with the situation was to have sex with whichever man was closest?


No...I'm not suggesting it was anything that shallow. I said, and I maintain, that she DOES have deep feelings for both men, and that the Others' manipulation of this had the intended effect. I think her feelings for Sawyer have always been more explosive, but her feelings for Jack may run a little deeper in the long run. As for which, if either, might be her one, true, forever love I don't think it's been long enough to really know how that will play out.

You mean to tell me you don't KNOW that it's temporary? Kate had sex with Sawyer. What more do you think they can do with these two?
Is this rhetorical? If not, then I can see VOLUMES of stories for Sawyer and Kate. The Island's Bonnie and Clyde, kicking a$$ and taking names? Surely!

Just as I can see stories for Charlie and Claire. They're the "sugary-sweet" couple. Skate is the volatile, heated, passionate, combative couple...the possibilities are endless. :smile:

They had sexual tension. Now that that's gone, there's nothing left. She couldn't even tell the guy that she loved him when she had the chance. We waited for that and it didn't happen. There is a reason. Even though Skate "happened" for now, there were so many Jate things going on in this episode.

I'm still somewhat surprisingly amused that people are interpreting Kate's silence as somehow less than a confirmation of her love for him.

She had already used the "L" word. I know that some folks actually believed her "retraction", but the fact is, she never denied her words in EMFH. She never told Sawyer "I was lying, and I DO NOT love you."

And in answer to his question last night, she raised her head, looked lovingly at him, kissed him gently at first, then more playfully, while smiling into his eyes and nuzzling her face contentedly back against his chest, still smiling. All the while, gentle, romantic music is swelling around them, and Sawyer replies with an "I love you, TOO". If that's not confirmation of their feelings for one another, then I simply can't imagine what else they could have done there to portray them...maybe put subtitles over the scene, stating "Sawyer Loves Kate Loves Sawyer"? :confused:

Kate had both spoken aloud and shown Sawyer that she loves him. To have her repeat it with words would have been unnecessary, and personally, I loved the way they chose to illustrate it...with her SHOWING him that she loves him. It was his turn to speak the words...and he did. :smile:

:twocents:, as per usual.

Evie has already said Kates "choice" is "temporary" It's only a matter of time when Kate returns Jacks' love. He showed us that he loves her last night.


Did Evi say that exactly, and when did she say it?

may I suggest you watch Kate's eyes carefully before she and Sawyer make love, and in the scene just after when he asks about her "I love you". She certainly does seem to be looking at him with her heart in her eyes, stripped utterly bare of all pretenses (metaphysically speaking, I mean... ;) )

See this is where we see things differently with our Skater and Jater glasses, because I didn't see that what you saw ;).

I think the confession withdrawal needs to be put into context. She pleaded with Sawyer several times to be open with her and he kept refusing. They're usually honest with each other so that confused her. Knowing he was scared by whatever they'd done was scaring her more than anything that had been done to them so far... in her own words. When she was trying to break the lock, and pleading with him one more time, asking tearfully, "What did they do to you?" Sawyer literally, pysically pushed her away from his cage. Kate was hurt and angry, and she lashed out to reject him by taking back her earlier words.

She is through running, and she is through leaving the people she loves and cares about behind. The man she loves in on his knees in dire peril, and the one she admires and cares for is somewhere else, also at the mercy of these maniacs. Both are telling her to save herself and leave them behind, and she's standing tall and refusing to do that. She's determined to save both of them, Sawyer out of love, and Jack out of loyalty. It shows how much her character has grown that she's so determined to make a stand and not run, IMO.


I love your take on this eppy and this thread is wonderful. I could be convinced either way by all the persuasive arguements in here. :rolleyes:

TPTB were very smart to leave loose ends for the cliffhanger. What else would we do for the next FOREVER if they didn't leave things open for interpretation.

Ben's comment to Jack about being a betting man supports the Jaters cause, and Kates rant that she doesn't do Taco night supports the Skaters. I love this show.

...because Kate's behavior in sleeping with Sawyer is contradictory to how she's rejected his advances this season
Maybe she was just hot for him (he is quite the hunk), and thought this might be her last chance.

Okay several things...

First of all I do think Kate still has strong feeling for Jack. I think she loves both Sawyer and Jack on some level...but I do feel like she's chosen Sawyer (at least for the near future) and that she IS in love with him..

Just because Jack isn't her romantic choice...obviously she still wouldn't LEAVE him with the others. Her saying "I won't leave without you...I can't" doesn't mean she loves him more than Sawyer. Just seconds earlier she was screaming that she'd do anything to stop Pickett from shooting Sawyer. She was clearly desperate and incredibly emotional. Jack is her friends...and she has a deep connection with him. She's still not going to leave him.

And as for why she didn't say "I won't leave without Sawyer"...that was never needed because of course she's not leaving without him. I think it was pretty clear that if Kate leaves...Sawyer is leaving with her. That's part of the deal. Jack is essentially throwing himself on the sword to give them a chance to get away. He doesn't trust that they'll all be let go...so this way even if he's right...at least Sawyer and kate can get away. He was making a sacrifice because HE'S the one they need for the operation.

I think the reason Kate was so upset while talking to Jack because was because she knew he was essentially sacrificing himself for her....and her happiness. Even though she doesn't know what he saw on the monitor...I think she could tell that he feels he's lost her from their conversation in his cell. She was brought in to persuade him to do something...and was convinced to do it because of her fear for Sawyer's life. She knew that hurt Jack. But Jack was being incredibly selfless in spite of that...making this huge gesture for her and her happiness...and she knew that. And it broke her heart and she did not want him to have to do it.

As for her not actually TELLING Sawyer that she loved him. I think that happened for two reasons. 1) The writers DO want to leave it a little ambigious...2) Actions speak louder than words. I don't buy her retraction of "I love him" last week...and I think the smile and the kiss was her admitting that...but maybe being unable to say it. Plus the title of the episode "I do" could have a double meaning there. In any event...she may not be ready to fully admit her love right now...but I don't think it means she's conning him. I have to admit I was worried the first couple of episodes. She was acting strange, but there has been no evidence to support conning at all. It's been written very straightforward...and I think it's on the level at this point.

I also don't think she slept with him just because he was going to die. Because that's the kind of thing you do when you've come to terms with that. Kate did not at all seem like she was ready to let go of him. She was frantic...desperate pleading. I think it happened because of the intensity of the moment...and their shared desire to connect...as well as escape from their own pain. It probably wouldn't have happened so quickly back at the beach...if at all...but that doesn't mean the emot