If Jack put a small incision in Ben's Liver Kidney sac to get the advantage, he said Ben has a hour to live

That gives K and S time to get away and tell J by radio they are safe..

I can not wait till Feb 2007 to see

I think Jack has outsmarted Ben

Your thoughts and feelings?

Jack doesn't know they are on a different island and this will not work

I did not think that the OR was very sterile looking, but I am no doctor...No pun intended

Skate steals the sub!

...I hope...

I thought he said "kidney sac"????

Yes, he said kidney sac.

started an (unanswered) thread last week, so i will try again.

the x-ray jack has been looking at appears to be of a neck, and the symptoms he asked ben about were related to a spinal tumor in the neck area.... so why was he cutting into his lower back ?

seems too obvious to be a writing mistake, no?
or should i just shut up about it ?

I thought the same thing about the neck/lower back thing. What gives?

I think it was a prop mistake actually. Hubby is a doctor, and he said the vertabrae in the X-ray were not the ones referred to in the dialogue. But, I'm suspending my disbelief on this one. The writers aren't doctors, after all.

started an (unanswered) thread last week, so i will try again.

the x-ray jack has been looking at appears to be of a neck, and the symptoms he asked ben about were related to a spinal tumor in the neck area.... so why was he cutting into his lower back ?

seems too obvious to be a writing mistake, no?
or should i just shut up about it ?


Hmm I don't remember the x-ray being of a neck.. I thought it was on the spine in the middle or lower back. That's why Jack was asking Benry how his neck felt, because for sure it would be tense, and sore. (I think).

I think that the area of the spine thing is a very unfortunate oversight with the X-ray prop.

As for Jack's plan, Glad to see that he had one, but they really do have troubles ahead to get off Alcatraz in an hour, especially since Pickett doesn't seem to be so much of a Ben backer.

And Jack's plan wasn't quite as exciting as I wanted it to be. I wanted Juliet exposed to Ben. I wanted him to play Juliet and Ben against one another. And what, seeing Kate and Sawyer on the surveillence system is what made him decide to devise such a plan?

I think it was a prop mistake actually. Hubby is a doctor, and he said the vertabrae in the X-ray were not the ones referred to in the dialogue. But, I'm suspending my disbelief on this one. The writers aren't doctors, after all.

Right, that kind of thing happens all the time on medical shows. I've heard they make errors like this on ER and that show is supposed to be all about medicine.

It was kidney sac..

I was confused too when they've been talking about his neck, but he cut into the back. They said L-4 vertebrae. That's the lower back; my sister had a spinal fusion in the L 3-4 area, and it's her back. I think Cervical or C-# would indicate neck, but I'm not a doctor...

(from every man for himself)
JACK: Who's x-rays are those? Outside? Those are spinal x-rays. They belong to a man about 40 years old. And whoever he is, he has a very large tumor on his L-4 vertebrae. And I just happen to be a spinal surgeon. So, you tell me, Juliet, who am I here to save?

He was reacting the way Juliet and Ben were EXPECTING him to react to what he saw on the TV screens. Though it must've hurt him, I'm sure that Jack had probably figured out Kate's feelings for James before that moment. He was just playing Juliet and Ben so he could get into that O.R. and set up the kidney-sac blackmail!

:clapping: to Jack for such a clever plan!

Kate knows they are on a separate Island--remember, James told her that. But you forget, not only do they have a sub, but they have Desmond's boat! I can see Jack ordering someone who can sail a boat (Tom, maybe?) to take James & Kate to safety.

Jack WILL stay with The Others. He's a doctor, he won't leave his patient--certainly, he won't commit murder (unless his hand is forced). We knew that when we saw his reaction to Juliet's tape. And, of course, Juliet can't just say, "Fine, I wanted him dead, anyway." Not with Ben's adherents surrounding her. Not with the convenient "story" of an "accidental" death during surgery gone out the window. But Jack will stay. Complete the operation. They'll all return to Otherville at that point, where Ben can recover, and Jack can oversee that recovery, to Juliet's chagrin.

But THIS was a BRILLIANT ploy on Jack's part! I've never admired him more!

I thought the OR scene was fantastic! Did you notice how Juliet kept looking at Jack as if to say "Are you going to do what I asked and kill him but make it look accidental?" She kept trying to meet Jack's eyes with her own, but he never looked at her. I couldn't tell what Jack was planning to do. THAT'S what made it such a great ending.

The Others have been mistreating J/K/S for days (or weeks), and Jack took control of the situation - at least long enough for Kate and Sawyer to get away. Also, just because they are on a different island, doesn't mean that Kate and Sawyer can't get to a boat. We've already seen that the Others do have access to boats. I would just grab a gun and head down to the shore line. It's better than being locked in a cage.

Way to go, Jack!

Well Jack is a man of his word now isn't he? He fixed the tumor on his spine, and then cut open Ben's kidney! Or maybe he didn't even cut open the kidney, just made a slice in the blood pressure/heart monitor, or what ever was alerting the others to Ben's problem.

Also, re: the island, why did they put the bag over Kate's head to move her (and same thing with Jack before that)? There's some kind of a surprise there--something that would destroy the illusion if we/they could see it.


He was reacting the way Juliet and Ben were EXPECTING him to react to what he saw on the TV screens. Though it must've hurt him, I'm sure that Jack had probably figured out Kate's feelings for James before that moment. He was just playing Juliet and Ben so he could get into that O.R. and set up the kidney-sac blackmail!

:clapping: to Jack for such a clever plan!

Kate knows they are on a separate Island--remember, James told her that. But you forget, not only do they have a sub, but they have Desmond's boat! I can see Jack ordering someone who can sail a boat (Tom, maybe?) to take James & Kate to safety.

Jack WILL stay with The Others. He's a doctor, he won't leave his patient--certainly, he won't commit murder (unless his hand is forced). We knew that when we saw his reaction to Juliet's tape. And, of course, Juliet can't just say, "Fine, I wanted him dead, anyway." Not with Ben's adherents surrounding her. Not with the convenient "story" of an "accidental" death during surgery gone out the window. But Jack will stay. Complete the operation. They'll all return to Otherville at that point, where Ben can recover, and Jack can oversee that recovery, to Juliet's chagrin.

But THIS was a BRILLIANT ploy on Jack's part! I've never admired him more!

Jack's plan accomplished at least one thing: It bought him time. Ben has one hour to live, which gives Jack some breathing room and leverage, not to mention Kate and Sawyer a chance to run. The question is whether one hour is enough time to provide some long term safety for Jack. Juliet doesn't seem to think so, but she could just be pissed that Jack deviated from her plan.

Well Jack is a man of his word now isn't he? He fixed the tumor on his spine, and then cut open Ben's kidney! Or maybe he didn't even cut open the kidney, just made a slice in the blood pressure/heart monitor, or what ever was alerting the others to Ben's problem.

Maybe I missed something (I was kindof dying) but I don't think Jack has removed the tumor yet.

I'm sorry, are you looking for a heavy dose of realism on Lost? Maybe we should bring in Stephen Hawking to explain the Smoke Monster.

It's television, drama. Deal with it. Who cares if the medicine isn't out of a textbook?

Edit: damnit, i got page 3ed

Can we get a scrub nurse or surgeon or someone to come in here and explain:

1) The Hippocratic Oath;
2) Surgical Anatomy; and
3) Sterile technique

and illuminate how utterly LUDICROUS this whole sequence was?????

I suppose we're going to have some "save the day moment" exactly 59 minutes after Jack Sliced Benry's Kidney Sac (sic), then Jack will stitch it all up and everything will be hunky-dory.

The advertising bucks they're raking in on this show, they can't afford a couple hours with a medical consultant?

1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocratic_Oath

2. The "kidney sac" would be what is called the renal fossa. Obviously too technical a term for most TV viewers. It just means, where your kidney is in your body.

3. http://64.78.42.182/sweethaven/MedTech/Surgery/coursemain.asp?whichMod=module0105

:clapping: to Jack for such a clever plan!

Kate knows they are on a separate Island--remember, James told her that. But you forget, not only do they have a sub, but they have Desmond's boat! I can see Jack ordering someone who can sail a boat (Tom, maybe?) to take James & Kate to safety.



Yes but it was Jack's plan, and HE doesn't know they are on another island. Also NONE of them know about Desmond's boat or the sub...let alone know how to drive one.

Maybe I missed something (I was kindof dying) but I don't think Jack has removed the tumor yet.

I don't think that it was clear either way, if he removed it or not.

I was just trying to postulate a way that Jack might have saved Ben,and maybe not even "did any harm" (that is if he didn't actually slice his kidney), all the while getting Kate and Sawyer to safety, and even maybe getting himself off the island.

I don't read X-rays, but I know that the ribs are located on the last thoracic vertebrae (T12) and below that are the lumbar vertebraes. They get counted from the top down, so below the ribs is L1, then L2, L3, etc.

The funky thing looks like it's on L2 imo:
http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=1189&pos=504
But yeah, the tumor is supposed to be in that general area, which would be the lower back. I'm actually shocked that Ben let Jack cut into him. I was so sure that those were actually Locke's xrays and that Ben and Juliet were just playing a head game on Jack! Oh well.

Not sure why they threw in the lateral xray of the skull/cspine (neck), though.
http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=1196&pos=866
Maybe they just thought it looked cool. :p

Also, re: the island, why did they put the bag over Kate's head to move her (and same thing with Jack before that)? There's some kind of a surprise there--something that would destroy the illusion if we/they could see it.

that's true we don't know what is inbetween the hallway to Jack's cell and the entrance outside the cages.

started an (unanswered) thread last week, so i will try again.

the x-ray jack has been looking at appears to be of a neck, and the symptoms he asked ben about were related to a spinal tumor in the neck area.... so why was he cutting into his lower back ?

seems too obvious to be a writing mistake, no?
or should i just shut up about it ?

Sorry I missed your thread last week. I thought it was a spinal tumor on the neck area too. I figured it was going to spread to his brain and thats why he only had a week or so to live. In the episode with the Italian father/daughter( I think it was this epi) there was an X-ray, when people on the board looked into it the x-ray was completely wrong. If anyone remembers this please help me:redface: , I'm too lazy to look it up right now. Anyway, I'm thinking faking x-rays might be an expensive prop and the crew has to get whatever tumor x-ray they can from Hawaii General.

BTW Was it ever said if this tumor was malignant? I would think if it was on the lower spine it would cripple you and maybe not kill you? Is there a doctor in the house to explain this stuff?

2. The "kidney sac" would be what is called the renal fossa. Obviously too technical a term for most TV viewers. It just means, where your kidney is in your body.

Actually, the renal fossa is the bilateral depression and space provided for the Kindneys and the Renal sac, which IS the correct term

btw, in this episode, while Jack and Juliette were scrubbing in, there was a glimpse of the original X-ray of the Lumbar region, and beside it was a lateral Cervial radiograph. So, unless I missed it in the other episode, TPTB were able to cover their butts in this case. Though, if the carcinoma had metasisized into the other vertebrae including the cervicals, then Jack would have had to have removed that as well, including a dramatic post surgerical regiment of chemo/radiotherapy.

Actually, the renal fossa is the bilateral depression and space provided for the Kindneys and the Renal sac, which IS the correct term

btw, in this episode, while Jack and Juliette were scrubbing in, there was a glimpse of the original X-ray of the Lumbar region, and beside it was a lateral Cervial radiograph. So, unless I missed it in the other episode, TPTB were able to cover their butts in this case. Though, if the carcinoma had metasisized into the other vertebrae including the cervicals, then Jack would have had to have removed that as well, including a dramatic post surgerical regiment of chemo/radiotherapy.
after further review the x-rays do appear to be lower spine.

fourth... if i'm not mistaken your field would know a good deal about my previous question. if there was a tumor on L4 it would be affecting lower extremities and possibly genital area. however, jack asks questions about neck pains and numbness in his hands, more consistent with a tumor in the cervical region ? am i mising something or was this just the wrong question for jack to be asking ?

fourth... if i'm not mistaken your field would know a good deal about my previous question. if there was a tumor on L4 it would be affecting lower extremities and possibly genital area. good thought. Normally, when extremeites are involved whether motor or sensory, and specifically if it follows the path of one or two dermatomes, then it is a nerve root that is being compressed via DDD or soft tissue/osseous tumor. However, if it effects BOTH limbs and may involve gentials and urinary/bowel functions, it is likely that the tumor would be above or near the S2 nerve roots and or a stenosing tumor that would cause your mentiond Cauda equina signs and symptoms, mind you... Cauda equina is a medical EMERGENCY!

however, jack asks questions about neck pains and numbness in his hands, more consistent with a tumor in the cervical region ? am i mising something or was this just the wrong question for jack to be asking ? You would be correct here. Unless the carcinoma had metastisized to other vertebrae, which could happen, then it is possible that a cervical vertebra had also begun to show signs of an osteoblastic tumor, causing the compression of lower cervical nerve roots just above the brachial plexus and lead to the mentioned 'pins and needles' jack asked about.

If Ben's cancer metastasized to other portions of his spine, then its unlikely Jack's surgery will do any good...

good thought. Normally, when extremeites are involved whether motor or sensory, and specifically if it follows the path of one or two dermatomes, then it is a nerve root that is being compressed via DDD or soft tissue/osseous tumor. However, if it effects BOTH limbs and may involve gentials and urinary/bowel functions, it is likely that the tumor would be above or near the S2 nerve roots and or a stenosing tumor that would cause your mentiond Cauda equina signs and symptoms, mind you... Cauda equina is a medical EMERGENCY!

You would be correct here. Unless the carcinoma had metastisized to other vertebrae, which could happen, then it is possible that a cervical vertebra had also begun to show signs of an osteoblastic tumor, causing the compression of lower cervical nerve roots just above the brachial plexus and lead to the mentioned 'pins and needles' jack asked about.

My guess is that ABC preferred that Jack ask Ben about sensations in the neck rather than if he had problems urinating or how his genitals were doing :blushing:

If Jack put a small incision in Ben's Liver Kidney sac to get the advantage, he said Ben has a hour to live

That gives K and S time to get away and tell J by radio they are safe..

I can not wait till Feb 2007 to see

I think Jack has outsmarted Ben

Your thoughts and feelings?
Ben said that the losties island was a swim like from alcatraz. People swim that all the time. Why can't Skate try it????

Ben said that the losties island was a swim like from alcatraz. People swim that all the time. Why can't Skate try it????

Sharks?

wait a second - did anyone ever say that this tumor was cancerous? I don't seem to recall, which in of itself doesn't really mean anything, anyone ever saying the tumor was cancerous. I do recall Jack saying that the location of the tumor made it almost inoperable and that the longer Ben took before having surgery the less operable the tumor would become. That doesn't necessarily mean cancer, though. A benign tumor growing rapidly in the wrong place can be life threatening on it's own.

dave

....The advertising bucks they're raking in on this show, they can't afford a couple hours with a medical consultant?

I agree, although in the end it isn't relevant to tell the story. . Tumor isn't where Jack says. Symptoms aren't -part of- what Jack described. First I thought it was part of 'I am Jack's Master Plan' but no, they were a mistake, it seems :undecide:
Anyhow, I was surprised with Jack's move. I must say I'm impressed, actually. The writers made something good with his character, gave him an edge. I suspect, though, he hasn't really caused a potentially lethal lesion. I'm no Surgeon so I don't really know, it's just a guess more based on the show than anything else.

Someone commented that Jack had fixed Ben's spine but I don't think he even gets to the spine yet. It takes quite a while, the vertebral bodies are placed much deeper than one would imagine -not a Surgeon here, but I do remember a few surgeries I watched while in Med School-. Anyway I think it's better to allow this...suspension of disbelief cause otherwise, the whole 'medical' sequences are almost always laughable. I rather not look at them anymore, it's difficult but I'll try...

it's a surgery that may take hours, so my guess is there will be a sequence with a sweaty, full surgeon mode Jack with cuts to Kate and Sawyer escaping and getting back to the island...who knows, maybe even swimming :lol:

I thought this was pretty simply explained. Ben's tumor was not in his neck. It is located on the L4 vertabrae of his spine. Jack says so in Every Man for Himself when Juliett comes back into the OR and he is chained to a dead Connie.

Symptoms of Ben's tumor we a pins and needles feelings in his feet and his neck hurting. The Lostpedia trancspritps haven't been updated for the last two shows, or I would paste in verbiage directly.

It seemed to make perfect sense to me. I am not very medically inclined, but I thought the L4 was toward the middle/bottom of your spine.

wait a second - did anyone ever say that this tumor was cancerous? I don't seem to recall, which in of itself doesn't really mean anything, anyone ever saying the tumor was cancerous. I do recall Jack saying that the location of the tumor made it almost inoperable and that the longer Ben took before having surgery the less operable the tumor would become. That doesn't necessarily mean cancer, though. A benign tumor growing rapidly in the wrong place can be life threatening on it's own.

dave

Unless I'm way off, all malignant tumors are cancers and a benign tumor by definition would not be life threatening.

as for the tumor being on the lower half of the spine and jack asking ben how his neck is: i have lots of problems with my body being a catcher and division 1 athlete, and the specific sites of injury almost always end up in a residual pain somewhere. for example lower back pain, in my experience, lead to knee pain.

my doctor explained it with the song "the hip bone's connected to the... knee bone! the knee bone's connected to the..." haha anyone remember that song?? so, it makes sense that ben's neck is really tight or something.

haha, i hope that made sense...?

Jack doesn't know they are on a different island and this will not work

They could hijack a boat or something. Surely the Others have a few more boats on their island.

Also, Kate and Sawyer could just be held a gunpoint saying they're alright. There are a few holes in Jack's plan but this is the only way to use his leverage with Ben.

If I remember corectly, Jack told Ben he had a malignant tumor. That would mean that the tumor is not cancerous. Still, since it is on his spine and growing, it is going to effect most of the basic life functions and eventually kill him.

If I remember corectly, Jack told Ben he had a malignant tumor. That would mean that the tumor is not cancerous. Still, since it is on his spine and growing, it is going to effect most of the basic life functions and eventually kill him.

No, a malignant tumor IS cancerous. But yes, it will eventually kill him.

No, a malignant tumor IS cancerous. But yes, it will eventually kill him.


lol, definately not a good thing. I think modkittn, you're thinking of "benign"

good thought. Normally, when extremeites are involved whether motor or sensory, and specifically if it follows the path of one or two dermatomes, then it is a nerve root that is being compressed via DDD or soft tissue/osseous tumor. However, if it effects BOTH limbs and may involve gentials and urinary/bowel functions, it is likely that the tumor would be above or near the S2 nerve roots and or a stenosing tumor that would cause your mentiond Cauda equina signs and symptoms, mind you... Cauda equina is a medical EMERGENCY!

You would be correct here. Unless the carcinoma had metastisized to other vertebrae, which could happen, then it is possible that a cervical vertebra had also begun to show signs of an osteoblastic tumor, causing the compression of lower cervical nerve roots just above the brachial plexus and lead to the mentioned 'pins and needles' jack asked about.
yeah i guess jack's question could be taken as more of a diagnosis than a statement. he see's the x-ray and inquires about the other areas to determine if there is possible spreading... i don't know it just bothered me. thanks for the info, i knew you were the right source.

They could hijack a boat or something. Surely the Others have a few more boats on their island.

But Kate & Sawyer don't know that for sure - AND wouldn't the others go after them & execute them?

Also, Kate and Sawyer could just be held a gunpoint saying they're alright. .

No they couldn't. Kate has to tell Jack the story from the 1st day when they are safe.