He wanted Kate to recount the story he told her from the pilot eppy when she was stitching him up when she was safely away from the Others...a story only she would know...

But, couldn't they just force her to recount the story by holding a gun to her or Sawyer's head anyways? I didn't get that.

That's what I thought at first too, but she could just tell a different story. The others wouldn't know the difference, but Jack would.

Jack's entire plan wasn't that well planned out, he should have made more demands of the other instead of just telling Kate4 and Sawyer to run, he should have got them guns, and transport etc.

But even if she told a false story...and Jack realized it...what could he do about it? He's stuck in the OR...and they have guns to his buddies' heads.

Doesn't make sense.

Jack could let Ben die...by "accident"

If in one hour Kate checks back in with a false story...Ben will die.

The idea is that none of them would ever let Ben die. I think that's a pretty safe bet...except for Juliette. Jack then gets to leave because he saves Ben.

Jack could let Ben die...by "accident"

I think Jack loses one way or the other if Ben dies, either by "accident" or because there is no crash cart that works, or because Kate and Sawyer don't get away as he demanded. Personally, I saw this as a flaw in Juliette's plan. Jack would suffer even if Ben died because this surgery is so complicated. You know they'd blame him and accuse him of letting Ben die on purpose.



When Juliette said there is a flaw in Jack's plan in the preview, I think that she meant she couldn't protect Jack this way.

Another flaw in Jack's plan is that he doesn't know they are on a different island. He's assuming they are on the same island, and tells Kate she can get an hour head start.

Kate needs only tell Jack what James told her--they are on a different Island. Jack will then demand that someone who knows how to sail take James & Kate to safety. Remember--they have Desmond's boat. Sooner or later, someone will break down and admit that (probably Tom). So it's not just a matter of the sub or nothing.

Kate needs only tell Jack what James told her--they are on a different Island. Jack will then demand that someone who knows how to sail take James & Kate to safety. Remember--they have Desmond's boat. Sooner or later, someone will break down and admit that (probably Tom). So it's not just a matter of the sub or nothing.

That's true, I didn't think of that. But the only problem is they only have one hour to get to the shore, and an Other would have to sail it. They better give Kate and Sawyer guns for protection. And, as Charlie once said, "You better leg it, mate. Clock's ticking." :)

I think we have to give poor Jack a break. He had to make a plan very quickly while dealing with the Sawyer/Kate thing and getting ready to do surgery.

Flaws should be expected. I did wonder why Kate didn't mention being on a different island or, for that matter, why Sawyer didn't tell her they were on cameras. I mean when she first climbed out tonight? Small wonnder why he didn't mention it when she got, um, friendlies. :biggrin:

I really got a kick out of Benry agreeing to get Jack "off of this island" which, of course means they will put him back on the other one. Clever and evil.

I think the flaw is that he's still working under the assumption that the Others want Ben to live. If what juliet said on the cards is true, she and some others may be perfectly happy to let Ben die AND kill Sawyer, etc.

If Sawyer and Kate find the sailboat, they could escape because Kate does know how to sail. She told Michael that in BTR.

Who wants to bet that when kate repeats the story its in a situation where she's afraid, so some kind of tragic irony is applied to the retelling? Maybe where she thinks something bad is going to happen to Jack because he is being left behind, or her saying the story gives Jack the courage to do something extreme?

I think the flaw is that he's still working under the assumption that the Others want Ben to live. If what juliet said on the cards is true, she and some others may be perfectly happy to let Ben die AND kill Sawyer, etc.

I think there are some of the Others (Tom in particular) that want Ben to live, but then there are others who don't (Juliet? Alex?). There's also the possibility that Ben is acting outside of his authority where Jack and co are concerned and someone above him (Jacob?) could intervene and allow Ben to die, nullifying Jack's advantage. Whatever the case, something is going to happen happen quickly, because it appears Jack is telling the truth about Ben's situation. I wonder if someone steps forward (Juliet?) and fixes Ben?

The main flaw in Jack' plan is two fold.

1. Ben dies and Pickett/Tom kills Jack
2. Kate runs, calls Jack and tells the story, Jack completes the surgery on Ben and Jack dies becasue they don't need him anymore/Jack betrayed them.

I think there are some of the Others (Tom in particular) that want Ben to live, but then there are others who don't (Juliet? Alex?). There's also the possibility that Ben is acting outside of his authority where Jack and co are concerned and someone above him (Jacob?) could intervene and allow Ben to die, nullifying Jack's advantage. Whatever the case, something is going to happen happen quickly, because it appears Jack is telling the truth about Ben's situation. I wonder if someone steps forward (Juliet?) and fixes Ben?

I think its a possibility that Benry could be sacrificed for pushing his own agenda.

the two immediate issue with jacks plan are
-once jack saves benry-jack is dead
-jack assumes benry is ,worth saving to the others
if he isnt, game over man

ya might even say that the other ALREADY may have resigned themselves to benrys impending death, then jack is screwed

The main flaw in Jack' plan is two fold.

1. Ben dies and Pickett/Tom kills Jack
2. Kate runs, calls Jack and tells the story, Jack completes the surgery on Ben and Jack dies becasue they don't need him anymore/Jack betrayed them.

3. Jack doesn't know they're on a different island.

I think Kate and Sawyer are gonna get away.....
But Jack's plan, although impromptu, has a lot of holes.
I think, Kate and Sawyer take Des's boat, then they 'suit-up' to save the day!
That's my hope.... of course it would never be that easy.

It seems to me that Pickett already thinks Ben is out of his mind and as good as dead. So, I don't see him caring either way.
I don't know what to make of Juliet.... my instinct says "no".

I wonder what's up with the secrecy of that story anyway... It's just a silly story.. How could it help Kate leave the island?

I wonder what's up with the secrecy of that story anyway... It's just a silly story.. How could it help Kate leave the island?

Well I guess that Jack just thought that it might be the one thing that only Jack and Kate know, that the others don't know. So that way he would know that she is safe. That story is kinda lame in my opinion though. Hate to have to hear it again.

Am I the only one that never bought that line by Ben about there being another island?

When the plane crashed he told them to get to that side of the island, it wouldn't take them long & then to pretend they were passengers.

You guys know more about this than I do, but even the image of the other island looked bogus to me.

:)

What I dont get, is why didn't Jack bargin for their freedom when he had a gun pointed at Ben in his monitoring room. My thought would be to take ben hostage and get kate and Sawyer, and go. Why go through with the surgery?
100%
I guess he could have figured Ben wouldn't have done anything, since he feels he's going to die anyway, having nothing to lose. But I would have just left and at least tried to get out somehow. But obviously thats just me and at this point I have no clue what is going on in these character's heads.

As far as we know they keep there word (at least been) so Jack knowing this cannot be flawed if they are going to kill Sawyer then what he is doing is buying them time, and worst case sacrificing himself as well, Kate has some pull on them now she can take Sawyer and they can run, If Ben dies they all die, if Ben lives Jack lives for sure, Kate and Sawyer might be able to make it back if they f***ing move

Why doesn't he hold the others at gunpoint?

The Others know all about Jack and his psyche, I think pulling guns on everyone would be senseless and stupid. He wouldn't go through with it and everyone knows it.Jack took a gamble, pure and simple. He waited until the cards were in his favor (on the operating table) and he's playing them. The Others could call his bluff and try to force him to operate while holding Kate at gunpoint while he in turn threatened Ben's life... BUT they would only have an hour to diliberate.

Why doesn't he have the Others let Kate/Sawyer go? Or simply make a deal with them?

Also, Jack doesn't want their involvement in the escape and is asking for Kate to tell him when she's safe because he so completely distrusts the Others.

Another flaw in Jack's plan is that he doesn't know they are on a different island. He's assuming they are on the same island, and tells Kate she can get an hour head start.

I think we have to give poor Jack a break. He had to make a plan very quickly while dealing with the Sawyer/Kate thing and getting ready to do surgery.

Flaws should be expected. I did wonder why Kate didn't mention being on a different island or, for that matter, why Sawyer didn't tell her they were on cameras. I mean when she first climbed out tonight? Small wonnder why he didn't mention it when she got, um, friendlies. :biggrin:

I really got a kick out of Benry agreeing to get Jack "off of this island" which, of course means they will put him back on the other one. Clever and evil.That's the first thing I thought when Ben said, "Done." 'Sure Jack, I'll get you off of this island. But ... I'll put you back on the one you came over from. [evil laugh]'

I think Kate and Sawyer are gonna get away.....
But Jack's plan, although impromptu, has a lot of holes.
I think, Kate and Sawyer take Des's boat, then they 'suit-up' to save the day!
That's my hope.... of course it would never be that easy.

It seems to me that Pickett already thinks Ben is out of his mind and as good as dead. So, I don't see him caring either way.
I don't know what to make of Juliet.... my instinct says "no".I don't trust Juliet as far as I could throw her covered in rock-hard cement! She is evil, evil ... evil. I think she's more evil than Ben. She creeps me out more than Ben ever has! She has this real smug way of talking and looking at you that just makes my skin crawl.

The idea is that none of them would ever let Ben die. I think that's a pretty safe bet...except for Juliette. Jack then gets to leave because he saves Ben.

I dunno... in the preview stills


there is an image here. http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=1201&pos=19

That flannel shirt is Tom's... as in this scene from tonight's ep

http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=1196&pos=887

Maybe Tom finishes the job.

I think Jack's course of action was pretty much the best one he had. Juliette offered him nothing but a flash card saying she would protect him. Ben on the other hand offered him an escape from the island that Jack knew he could provide since Jack was there when Michael and Walt bailed.

As stated above, Kate and Sawyer can relay info to Jack as far as the two island problem and given the size of the island they are on, Jack could stich up the kidney and still have Ben under the knive and vulnerable until Sawyer and Kate were safely on the island with a boat.

The only real flaw I see in Jack's plan is that once Ben is sewn up and toumor-less, he is really going to be on the sh*t list as far as the rest of the Others are concerned until Ben recovers. I hope he has a plan for staying alive until Ben is functional enough to help Jack be on his way.

Hey when did Juliet say that there is a flaw in Jack's plan? Is it in a new promo?

I think that Jack will save Ben, Pickett will chase after S&K and try to kill Sawyer then Juliet shoots Pickett!

Good thinking Natalie. Anything can happen and of course Jack's plan is flawed. There is never going to be anything that happens on the island that isn't right? Something can go wrong at anytime and at any place. Personally I hope that Kate and Sawyer make it back to the beach. I miss them being there interacting with everyone.

It seems to me that Jack is testing the others.............he already knows they are lying but he not sure just how far the lies go. When he ask Kate did they hurt you? and she didn't answer I think Jack decided to put a plan in action......to see if Kate's been compromised or if she's just being lied to also.:confused:

I don't think Jack is kidding himself about the flaws in his plan. This doesn't change the fact that he feels like he must do SOMETHING to try and help them. He gave himself a chance to buy them some time, he did, really, the only thing he could short of shooting Ben and running around the complex haphazardly, which has already been proven a few times isn't the smartest way to go.

So Jack tried to turn the tables using his brain instead of force. It's a desperate plan to be sure, it's not a well thought out plan, but that doesn't mean it won't be effective.

I think Jack is also counting on Kate's ability to convey the truth to him beyond a simple story. I think he feels he will know if she is lying at gunpoint, and if they kill Kate or Sawyer I think Jack has every intention of letting Ben die.

As for making sense, no it doesn't make sense, but it's all Jack has to work with. He had to try something to get them out from under, and I think he feels he doesn't have a lot of chance to get out from under himself, or maybe he figures he can escape on his own later if they don't kill him, and they don't have any leverage.

If Ben recovers he will be told the story BUT he will also have to remember that Jack in the end did save his life. How Ben reacts to that will be interesting. It could be something that stops the rest of the others from Killing Jack.

I dunno... in the preview stills


there is an image here. http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=1201&pos=19

That flannel shirt is Tom's... as in this scene from tonight's ep

http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=1196&pos=887

Maybe Tom finishes the job.

Well, that still is from tonight's eppy (#6). The previews were a mix of what had already happened and what is going to happen. That scene was Tom when Jack wanted him to use the walkitalkie to get Kate.

I hope Kate and Sawyer escape unharmed!:scared:


Something tells me that they won't!:hide:

Jack probably assumes he is dead anyway. Kate blew it by not communicating to Jack that they were on a different Island. the Others obviously know how to move back and forth between the two by sub, boat, tunnel or however this important peice of the puzzle was not conveyed to Jack.
100%
I think the flaw is that he's still working under the assumption that the Others want Ben to live. If what juliet said on the cards is true, she and some others may be perfectly happy to let Ben die AND kill Sawyer, etc.

Tom seems to be in Ben's camp.
We think Julliet would like to see him dead but Jack thinks se wants to maintain the appearance of wanting him to live..
Picket seems to follow Ben's and Tom's orders despite REALLY wanting to kill Sawyer to avenge Colleen.
Ditto Picket's lieutenent.

All this being said. The whole (Alex?) intercom coming on, access to the monioring room and armory seems very convenient. The look on Ben's face when he was observing Jack and Kate makes me suspicious that Ben has ulterior motives.

flawed all the way around. Some things to consider though in regards to the big picture. The actor playing Benry is insanely popular on this show because, lets face it, he is really good. With his flexibility and range as an actor I cannot imagine that the creators have any intention of killing him off. He is now one of the key characters. I think that Jack will likely save him but might cripple him or somehow physically incapacitate him temporarily or permanently. In doing so Jack would help Kate escape and be able to save Ben and have an upperhand so that he might not be "dispatched". I honestly dont see Ben being written off right now. I am betting he will have a good season or two more. He is a relevant part to almost every question that we as viewers have.

Jack might handicap Ben so that Juliet could take over. Kate has nowhere to run but in the preview it looked like she was gonna put a whoopin on the guy behind her. I bet that they dont run. I bet that they fight there way out of their captive situation and become a bit more empowered. With their leader knocked out and crazy Pickett unconscious, the Others would be blind and benign. An empowered Jack, Kate and Sawyer could enable a situation that would bring the Others under their control. All you have to do is disable the leader (Ben) and knock out and tie up a few key secondaries, and you can take whats left of the Others. If only Sayid were nearby, it would all be over before it started.

Did I read where Ben was only slated to be in 3 or so epis originally? If so they could probally kill him off as he must not have been integral to the original story outline.

ok HOPEFULLY this will go through this time

I think the obvious flaw in Jack's plan is that Jack is unaware that they are on a smaller prison-island, so there is no way for Sawyer and Kate to really escape even if they get a head start.

If I were Sawyer and Kate, I would shoot (or depending on how much Sawyer cares that he's been the focus of Pickett's Sadism, torture) Pickett and the other guy, and go attempt to find and liberate Jack, shooting everyone I met along the way. Best defense is a good offense in this case, imo.

yeh but viewers would have a fit and the creators know it. benry is a solid character. to kill him off would be like trading in your bmw for an 82 skylark. his charisma and acting are top notch and bring some real depth to the storyline. You wouldnt wanna kill him off to soon, if at all. I think that the creators are invested in the character for quite some time.

yeh but viewers would have a fit and the creators know it. benry is a solid character. to kill him off would be like trading in your bmw for an 82 skylark. his charisma and acting are top notch and bring some real depth to the storyline. You wouldnt wanna kill him off to soon, if at all. I think that the creators are invested in the character for quite some time.

Well, if they went with my plan, they could just kill everyone who posed a threat to them (who was armed, essentially), and take Ben as a captor (now that they know who he really is).

What Jack is doing is much better than holding a gun to anyone's head...in essence, he's already fired the bullet. Question is, will it strike it's target or not. Jack's plan is actually pretty brillant..(minus the not knowing they can't get off the island) part. However, there is Alex...and she apparently knows how so that could work out in their favor, but surely Jack didn't plan on that.

If Jack completes the surgery...Ben gives him what he wants
If Jack doesn't, Juliet gets what she wanted.

Jack is playing two hands here and one is surely going to pay off for him.

Did anyone consider that Jack is sacrificing his own life in order to get Kate and Sawyer to safety? Jack figures he is going to be killed no matter how this whole situation turns out. He is giving up himself in order to save his friends.

The main flaw in Jack' plan is two fold.

1. Ben dies and Pickett/Tom kills Jack
2. Kate runs, calls Jack and tells the story, Jack completes the surgery on Ben and Jack dies becasue they don't need him anymore/Jack betrayed them.

some are missing the point in the context of the story

Secondary Theme of the story
SACRIFICE

Regardless of what Ben says the plan was to have Kate and Sawyer be together to alienate Jack. Thats why the cages are there..the pretty dress and all the games to draw them together.Thats why they let Jack go to the monitors to see the result.

Sawyer is willing to die to save Kate. Jack is presented by the writers to be "every man for himself. In essence..they switch roles

But Jack had a plan. Jack is going to be Jack..and Jack would die for his friends. There is no flaw on Jacks end... because sacrifice is not a plan of Logic..but of Love. Of course, on TV..this is always short lived and the hero has his cake and eats it too most of the time.

about the escape..I dont see any problem because the conversation with Kate isnt even over. They have the Walkies. They get away or Ben dies. The only reason an hour is mentioned is because thats when Ben bleeds out. The fact is..jack doesnt believe what any of the Others say..The episode made that clear by Jack screaming it out to them(alex also screams this out)

BTW The Primary Theme was " I only like bad boys". It was the conclusion of this theme that was developed through many episodes. Kate cant be with Jack for the same reason she cant be with Kevin and her other boyfriend. Too goodie goodie. Father/Step Father analogy.That was the reason for the strange look kate gave Jack when they kissed.

edit: I see one person agreed:)

How's this for a flaw... who but an idiot would believe that Ben would want Jack to do the operation if he had the power to leave the Island and go to a real hospital?

If I thought Jack was stupid enough to fall for that I wouldn't want him operating on my spine.



Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain...

Just because they are in contact with the outside world does not mean Ben has the ability to go to a real hospital and get insta-surgery. You don't just walk into a hospital and request a surgery.

The major flaw in Ben's plan is chemo. Even folks who have a tumor removed have to go through chemo to treat the cancer.

I mentioned earlier that even if Jack knew they were on a seconed smaller island, he'd still have done this. It buys them a chance to escape, it buys them a chance to make it, which is more than they had before.

Just because they are in contact with the outside world does not mean Ben has the ability to go to a real hospital and get insta-surgery. You don't just walk into a hospital and request a surgery.

The major flaw in Ben's plan is chemo. Even folks who have a tumor removed have to go through chemo to treat the cancer.

I mentioned earlier that even if Jack knew they were on a seconed smaller island, he'd still have done this. It buys them a chance to escape, it buys them a chance to make it, which is more than they had before.

Ben has known for close to three months about the tumor. That's "insta-surgery"? Plus Ben claimed more than just contact with the outside world. He said he would take Jack home.

And it's clear that the Others have significant resources. Arrangements could be made. Unless Ben prefers to have his spine operated on by a traumatized surgeon who hates his guts and hasn't touched a scalpel in three months, that's what he would do.

All nice thoughts...I do agree Jack is not that solid his plan will do much more than save Kate & Sawyer. I think he's confident he can patch up the intentional wound he created...and is MORE than confident he can safely remove Ben's tumor...I think he purposely "oversold" it's severity...he was just trying to rush the timing of the surgery.

But my original reason for starting this thread with regard to the flaw is: What if Pickett called Jack's bluff? What if he grabbed that walkie talkie outta Kate's hands and said "Jack...if you don't sew Ben back together THIS SECOND...I'm gonna shoot Kate in the foot...then her thigh...then her stomach...and you are gonna have to listen to her die."

Would Jack be able to sit there and listen to all that? It's as if he really doesn't have much hand at all, if the Others call his bluff....as much as the Other's (albeit Juliet) wanna save Ben...I think Jack would cave in an instant if he had to listen to Kate being shot over that walkie talkie.

By the way...as the OP...I feel obligated to re-hash the story Jack wants Kate to recount from the pilot:


KATE: I might throw up on you.
JACK [shaking his head]: You're doing fine.
KATE: You don't seem afraid at all. I don't understand that.
JACK: Well, fear's sort of an odd thing. When I was in residency my first solo procedure was a spinal surgery on a 16 year old kid, a girl. And at the end, after 13 hours, I was closing her up and I, I accidentally ripped her dural sac, shredded the base of the spine where all the nerves come together, membrane as thin as tissue. And so it ripped open and the nerves just spilled out of her like angel hair pasta, spinal fluid flowing out of her and I: and the terror was just so crazy. So real. And I knew I had to deal with it. (He's crying). So I just made a choice. I'd let the fear in, let it take over, let it do its thing, but only for 5 seconds, that's all I was going to give it. So I started to count, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. Then it was gone. I went back to work, sewed her up and she was fine.
KATE: If that had been me, I think I would have run for the door.
JACK: No, I don't think that's true. You're not running now.



Funny...that last line, now...Kate saying she would "run for the door"...After all her flashbacks...we now realize that's what she's the best at. I wonder where she'll run to now?

Who says Picket is somehow in charge of what happens to Kate, and hence Ben? Sure, he's mad as hell and probably got the ok from Tom (and perhaps Ben, but I doubt that) to kill Sawyer once Ben was out... but he sure as hell wasn't given the ok to put Ben's life in danger!

I think we're missing the point if we think it's as simple as Picket threatening to shoot Kate to get Jack to back down.. I don't think Tom and some of the rest would let Picket take charge and call the shots.. no way. In fact, in Ben's absence it's likely Tom will be the one who's looked at for answers or instructions... not Picket. And he can't defy his people, because he has nowhere to go.

So, yeah, I think Jack's covered that angle... no crazy Picket making threats, simply because he can't. He tries to pull a stunt like that, and I'm sure his people (Ben supporters) would have something to say about it. Like, "quit this s**t, you'll get Ben killed for sure!"

Besides, only Jack can fix Ben. No one else seems to know how... so that gives him a power position. For now.

I think we're missing the point if we think it's as simple as Picket threatening to shoot Kate to get Jack to back down.. I don't think Tom and some of the rest would let Picket take charge and call the shots.. no way. In fact, in Ben's absence it's likely Tom will be the one who's looked at for answers or instructions... not Picket. And he can't defy his people, because he has nowhere to go.

So, yeah, I think Jack's covered that angle... no crazy Picket making threats, simply because he can't.

Sorry, evan...I didn't realize that you had the whole Others Hierarcy of power all figured out! lol!

Actually...maybe it's because if this was "24"...and it was Jack Bauer...not Jack Sheppard...running this crazy gambit...I know his enemies would certainly start selectively perforating Kate to get him to back down!! Nobody does disgusted compliance better than Keifer Sutherland.

Btw...there's 3 great band names inside this post if you are thinking of starting a rock band:

1. Others Hierarchy
2. Disgusted Compliance
3. Selectively Perforating Kate

Well...if not band names, certainly great album titles!

But back to my point...Pickett has nothing left to live for...after the "losties" killed his best girl Colleen. He wants to kill a 815'er so bad he can taste it. Ben and his hierachy be damned...I think he'd be a fool NOT to test Jack's commitment to his "plan".

The fact that Tom is temporarily in charge is a pretty lucky thing for Jack.

We've seen in Tom's interactions with Kate and Sawyer that, in comparison with the other Others', he's pretty genial and considerate, and possibly a 'weak link' in terms of ruthlessness.

We've seen in Tom's interactions with Kate and Sawyer that, in comparison with the other Others', he's pretty genial and considerate, and possibly a 'weak link' in terms of ruthlessness.

Yeah, especially when he kidnapped Walt right out of Michael's arms, blew up the raft, and left three men to drown in the middle of the ocean. That was very genial and considerate of him. :rolleyes:

Seriously though, Tom's emotion when he spoke to Pickett through the walkie-talkie was that of fear. The situation scares him to death, and I doubt he will be able to make any rational decisions for the time being.

Consider that Tom wanted the kidnapping of Walt to go without any incident, and it was in fact Sawyer who first drew a gun. Not that kidnapping kids is therefore acceptable, but I have a feeling that if Tom had his way, he would have simply left them with their raft intact.

So Tom believed that Michael would simply hand over Walt without having to draw any guns?

I have a question about Jack's plan.

Didn't he only tell Kate to run? I don't recall him ever saying anything about Sawyer running away. Is this because he wants to spite Sawyer after he found out that Sawyer had slept with Kate? I don't think Jack would want to keep Sawyer captive, but why else would he only tell Kate to run away?

By the way...as the OP...I feel obligated to re-hash the story Jack wants Kate to recount from the pilot:



Funny...that last line, now...Kate saying she would "run for the door"...After all her flashbacks...we now realize that's what she's the best at. I wonder where she'll run to now?


Nice Ator :) Good find

I have a question about Jack's plan.

Didn't he only tell Kate to run? I don't recall him ever saying anything about Sawyer running away. Is this because he wants to spite Sawyer after he found out that Sawyer had slept with Kate? I don't think Jack would want to keep Sawyer captive, but why else would he only tell Kate to run away?

I've found it interesting that people have taken Jack's pleas for Kate to run to literally just mean for Kate to run. He is speaking to Kate, focusing on Kate, trying to get Kate to focus. He is assuming Sawyer is right there and will go with her.

It's amusing that no matter what Jack does its never good enough and people have to look for an ulterior motive. He's sacrificing his life for them and OMG, he didn't take the time to be specific about who should run? At least he's trying to do something and good heavens Sawyer is lucky the man cares whether he lives or dies because he's certainly never done anything to make Jack care.

I have a question about Jack's plan.

Didn't he only tell Kate to run? I don't recall him ever saying anything about Sawyer running away. Is this because he wants to spite Sawyer after he found out that Sawyer had slept with Kate? I don't think Jack would want to keep Sawyer captive, but why else would he only tell Kate to run away?

It's been confirmed somewhere ((looks under papers on desk)) that the original script included Sawyer. I think the intent of excluding him was to focus on that Jack was doing this for Kate.

Did anyone consider that Jack is sacrificing his own life in order to get Kate and Sawyer to safety? Jack figures he is going to be killed no matter how this whole situation turns out. He is giving up himself in order to save his friends.

That's exacty how I see it as well. I don't think Jack intends to survive this mess. In his mind, he's probably screwed regardless of whether Ben survives or not. If Ben dies, they are going to kill him, and if he lives, Pickett will want revenge against someone (since he doesn't have Sawyer), and Tom and Ben will not be pleased with Jack either.

Also, I don't understand why everyone is stating that simply because Kate and Sawyer are on another island that they can't possibly escape. Says who? They just need a boat, and boats tend to be found near the shoreline. The fact that both Kate and Sawyer are aware they are on another island saves time because they can easily threaten the life of whoever they meet at the shoreline and demand to know where a boat can be found. It's certainly not hopeless.

The one who's screwed either way, imo, is Jack. Even if they don't kill him, he's a permanent prisoner.

All nice thoughts...I do agree Jack is not that solid his plan will do much more than save Kate & Sawyer. I think he's confident he can patch up the intentional wound he created...and is MORE than confident he can safely remove Ben's tumor...I think he purposely "oversold" it's severity...he was just trying to rush the timing of the surgery.

But my original reason for starting this thread with regard to the flaw is: What if Pickett called Jack's bluff? What if he grabbed that walkie talkie outta Kate's hands and said "Jack...if you don't sew Ben back together THIS SECOND...I'm gonna shoot Kate in the foot...then her thigh...then her stomach...and you are gonna have to listen to her die."

Would Jack be able to sit there and listen to all that? It's as if he really doesn't have much hand at all, if the Others call his bluff....as much as the Other's (albeit Juliet) wanna save Ben...I think Jack would cave in an instant if he had to listen to Kate being shot over that walkie talkie.

By the way...as the OP...I feel obligated to re-hash the story Jack wants Kate to recount from the pilot: Quote:
KATE: I might throw up on you.
JACK [shaking his head]: You're doing fine.
KATE: You don't seem afraid at all. I don't understand that.
JACK: Well, fear's sort of an odd thing. When I was in residency my first solo procedure was a spinal surgery on a 16 year old kid, a girl. And at the end, after 13 hours, I was closing her up and I, I accidentally ripped her dural sac, shredded the base of the spine where all the nerves come together, membrane as thin as tissue. And so it ripped open and the nerves just spilled out of her like angel hair pasta, spinal fluid flowing out of her and I: and the terror was just so crazy. So real. And I knew I had to deal with it. (He's crying). So I just made a choice. I'd let the fear in, let it take over, let it do its thing, but only for 5 seconds, that's all I was going to give it. So I started to count, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5. Then it was gone. I went back to work, sewed her up and she was fine.
KATE: If that had been me, I think I would have run for the door.
JACK: No, I don't think that's true. You're not running now.


Funny...that last line, now...Kate saying she would "run for the



Funny...that last line, now...Kate saying she would "run for the door"...After all her flashbacks...we now realize that's what she's the best at. I wonder where she'll run to now? Somehow I think killing a posible child bearer would be a no-no

I think Jacks speech was a cliff hanger. Its about facing your fears and getting back to work in this case. In this case back to 'the plan' . It implies that Jack thinks Kate wont run away.
If she gets it and she is away from the others and the plan is leave no man behind the coolest thing she could say to Jack is 1-2-3-4-5 conveying she gets it and agrees. Also incorporating numbers (even if not the select ones) that we love so much

Also, I don't understand why everyone is stating that simply because Kate and Sawyer are on another island that they can't possibly escape. Says who? They just need a boat, and boats tend to be found near the shoreline. The fact that both Kate and Sawyer are aware they are on another island saves time because they can easily threaten the life of whoever they meet at the shoreline and demand to know where a boat can be found. It's certainly not hopeless.


Agreed. Or they could always, you know, swim. It's only about two miles off shore. If they get a one hour head start and swim as fast as possible I'm sure they'd make it to the shores of the Losties' island.

How far away can they get before the walkie-talkie stops working???

Not so sure Sawyer wants to get back into Dharma Shark infested waters too soon.

I was waiting for Sawyer to yell to Jack..."Nice plan...but we're not on OUR island, Marcus Welby"!

I wouldn't think those walkie talkies' reception would cover the entire Alcatraz island either. Too many loose ends in this plan for me.

Just because they are in contact with the outside world does not mean Ben has the ability to go to a real hospital and get insta-surgery. You don't just walk into a hospital and request a surgery.

The major flaw in Ben's plan is chemo. Even folks who have a tumor removed have to go through chemo to treat the cancer.

I mentioned earlier that even if Jack knew they were on a seconed smaller island, he'd still have done this. It buys them a chance to escape, it buys them a chance to make it, which is more than they had before.Chemo if the tumor is cancerous. Not all are and not all that grow are. Had a mother that got tumors like some catch colds and none were cancerous. But I think Jack made it look worse than it is, IMO.

I have a question about Jack's plan.

Didn't he only tell Kate to run? I don't recall him ever saying anything about Sawyer running away. Is this because he wants to spite Sawyer after he found out that Sawyer had slept with Kate? I don't think Jack would want to keep Sawyer captive, but why else would he only tell Kate to run away?That's what I think, too. He might assume Sawyer'll go with her but he didn't mention Sawyer because his prime concern is her.

I've found it interesting that people have taken Jack's pleas for Kate to run to literally just mean for Kate to run. He is speaking to Kate, focusing on Kate, trying to get Kate to focus. He is assuming Sawyer is right there and will go with her.

It's amusing that no matter what Jack does its never good enough and people have to look for an ulterior motive. He's sacrificing his life for them and OMG, he didn't take the time to be specific about who should run? At least he's trying to do something and good heavens Sawyer is lucky the man cares whether he lives or dies because he's certainly never done anything to make Jack care.

It's been confirmed somewhere ((looks under papers on desk)) that the original script included Sawyer. I think the intent of excluding him was to focus on that Jack was doing this for Kate.No ulterior motives. Just taking the show from its content. To do otherwise would be assuming.

And even if Sawyer was mentioned in the original script (as YellowTang mentioned here), the fact that it wasn't in the final show should lead us to believe that Jack was worried about Kate and Sawyer was ... well, on his own. If he got to go with her, ok, if not, ok. Surely the name wasn't cut due to time constraints. It must have been cut because using it would have given us the wrong impression of Jack's intent.

Not so sure Sawyer wants to get back into Dharma Shark infested waters too soon.

I was waiting for Sawyer to yell to Jack..."Nice plan...but we're not on OUR island, Marcus Welby"!

I wouldn't think those walkie talkies' reception would cover the entire Alcatraz island either. Too many loose ends in this plan for me.Love the Marcus Welby line and I'd have loved to have seen that, too! I was left wondering why Kate didn't tell Jack that they weren't on the main island and had no place to run to. Seems odd to me.

Surely the outlaw couple is bright enough to figure out that the Others are going back and forth from the big island to the small island some how and will use Jack's head start to force the issue. Jack knows they have a sub and has probably asked himself "now why would they have a sub". Hopefully the two people who are supposed to be such brilliant criminals will come to this conclusion and ask the question "where's the boat"?

Agreed. Or they could always, you know, swim. It's only about two miles off shore. If they get a one hour head start and swim as fast as possible I'm sure they'd make it to the shores of the Losties' island.


I'm a swimmer, and i've swam a few mile races (in practice, not competition) and i've finished them both in about 70 minutes. Kate and Sawyer could definately get to shore by then. And two miles is just an estimate by Sawyer. When i saw it i thought more like maybe one mile.

Let's just think of Jack's plan from his perspective alone. We - the audience - know far more than Jack (or think we do). We have been exposed to information and, possibly, also misinformation too. Jack has only the barest 'facts' to work from as he's been kept in semi-isolation.

Jack's seen Kate once. On that occasion Juliet (playing soft cop to Pickett’s hard cop) brings Kate in to see Jack and has briefed Kate to ask Jack to go along with Ben’s operation. Jack is pleased to see Kate but absolutely disgusted to find that Kate is being used as a lever and that he’s expected to go along with Ben’s plan, and if he doesn’t then the Others will kills Sawyer – and that Kate cares enough about Sawyer to beg Jack to comply.

I don’t think that Jack would actually have refused to operate in the end (as a responsible doctor) as it’s one thing to kill someone in a gun fight/in self defence, but quite another for a surgeon to knowingly refuse to operate on another human being who’s life is threatened – however bad the patient may or may not be. Jack is actually hoping that his apparent refusal and delaying tactics would improve his negotiating position, and that the Others would believe that he’d go against his Hippocratic Oath and let Ben die. That’s why Ben countered Jack’s ploy by making Kate believe that the Others were willing to kill Sawyer.

Jack knows that both Ben and Juliet are playing with his mind, and he doesn't know who to trust. He knows that the Others are violent, will kidnap people and hold them hostage/prisoner. He knows that the Others have more weapons than the Losties, and that they stage elaborate deceptions. Ben has admitted that he's been deceptive and that even after offering to shake Jack's hand he’s been caught out in another ruse - to get Jack to operate - even mentioning Juliet’s resemblance to Sarah (Jack's ex-wife) “We were hoping to get you invested"

If I were Jack I would hate all of these people with a vengeance, and I'd distrust Juliet as much as Ben, although as a man, Jack flirts with Juliet when it suits him! However although I hated and distrusted Ben, I'd at least see him as the main way to 'get out of jail'.

Jack knows that he’s being observed in his holding tank. He knows that the intercom occasionally seems to come to life and that he hears strange messages from it. Whatever we – the audience – might speculate about the source of those messages, surely Jack will simply see this as another method of the Others breaking him or messing with his head. Jack is such a ‘man of science’ character that we have to assume that he thinks that any intercom voices he hears are being put there by the Others. Anyone in captivity would try the door if told to. It’s not 100% clear if the door being open was a set-up, as when Jack opened the gun cupboard he checked to see if the gun he took was loaded. Having access to ammo and a gun would probably not have been part of a set up for Jack to see the monitors, or would it? From Ben’s perspective, Jack has two ways of killing him – pulling the trigger, or failing to operate. From Ben’s perspective he’s only got a week to live, so probably doesn’t much care if he dies from Jack’s bullet or from Jack not removing the tumour.

OK, we might believe from what we saw that Jack’s decision to tell Ben he’d operate was provoked by Jack seeing Kate and Sawyer in their loving embrace, on the monitor, and from Ben reinforcing the suggestion that he’d have predicted that Kate would have chosen Jack. This leads us to think that the Others were definitely playing on the love triangle aspect. What would Jack have thought – he likes Kate and doesn’t have much time for Sawyer. Is he sympathetic to Kate and her new lover? Is he pissed at what he’s seen, as he’s been edged out by Sawyer? Or is it a complex combination of factors? Or does Jack see though it all and opt to play along?

From where Jack is standing he has nothing to gain from letting Ben die. He tries to get Ben to give him his word that he’ll get him off the island. Ben gives his word – although he would, wouldn’t he? If, at that stage Ben told Jack that it was not his decision to make, or some thing similar, then Ben would only undermine the position that he’d worked so hard to get Jack into: agreeing to operate. So poor Jack has only hope to keep him going and has to trust Ben. Or has he started to hatch a plan? I think that he sees his duty to operate, and maybe also realises that getting out of the tank and in to the OR will place him in a stronger position.

Now Jack is in the operating theatre scrubbing up. His conversation with Juliet is very terse. In effect he tells Juliet that he’s in charge and to follow his orders: Juliet is to be a subordinate. Jack’s none too subtle about it and seems to show some antagonism to Juliet, probably following her plotting to kill Ben and her manipulation of Kate. Of course Jack may be conning Juliet and may hope that his aggressive stance towards her is taken by Juliet as a sign that he isn’t about to cooperate with her plan to see Ben die on the table.

In my view Jack hatches his final plan at the operating table. It’s on impulse, and is not thought through. If the Others had any sense they’d have had Kate and Sawyer in the observation area with guns held to their heads, where Jack could see them under threat. Fortunately they didn’t hold them as visible hostages and Ben has miscalculated Jack’s potential to rebel. In any event Ben has to trust Jack, and seems genuine in wanting Jack to want to do the operation

Jack will have no idea what Pickett and his mate are up to. Jack decides to make his kidney sack incision on Ben, and then tells a guy in the observation area (Tom) to get into the OR with his walkie-talkie. Jack knows little or nothing about Tom. Maybe enough to think he is one of Ben’s trusted lieutenants.

The scene switches to the cage action between Pickett, Sawyer & Kate. Meanwhile some more conversation happens between Jack and Tom, but we don’t get to hear this. When we go back to the OR we’ve already heard Tom tell Pickett to give the walkie to Kate. You get the impression that Tom is very concerned for Ben’s life; and Pickett…. well Pickett may have been about to execute Sawyer, but he finally gives in to Tom’s pleas and passes the walkie-talkie to Kate.

Jack is doing his noble JACK thing; he is trying to save people that he feels responsible for. Jack got them into this mess and Jack has to try to save them. In my view Jack is being entirely selfless, but is still “in love” with Kate.






So, here are some ideas to consider:1. Jack has rejected the plan that Juliet put to him as, after pulling the kidney-sack stunt on Ben, even Juliet would have a hard time protecting Jack if Ben were to die, especially as it can’t now look like an accident.2. As Jack’s not in any position to think he’s on a different island he assumes that Kate and Sawyer will have a fighting chance of getting away and back to their beach camp; Jack will inevitably sew Ben back up and ask Ben to honour his promise to get him off the island. In this scenario, Ben is asked by Jack to overlook the stunt he pulled during the operation as he will still have saved Ben’s life. Jack can even keep Juliet’s plan (to turn him against Ben) up his sleeve in case he needs to use this information to blackmail Juliet later on.3. They are not on another island at all. Ben was showing Sawyer another island that was visible from their own island, and the bit about being on an offshore island the size of Alcatraz is a part of the con, so that Sawyer won’t see any point in running. If the Pala Ferry jetty was in the logical place to take people to the other island, just two miles offshore, surely that island would be visible from the Pala Ferry jetty.:confused: Please critique any of these suggestions - after all we're here to discuss it for three months!!

Surely the outlaw couple is bright enough to figure out that the Others are going back and forth from the big island to the small island some how and will use Jack's head start to force the issue. Jack knows they have a sub and has probably asked himself "now why would they have a sub". Hopefully the two people who are supposed to be such brilliant criminals will come to this conclusion and ask the question "where's the boat"?I'm not positive that Jack heard Ben tell Juliet the sub had arrived. He said it very quietly, so much so that a lot of viewers didn't even catch it.

Am I the only one that never bought that line by Ben about there being another island?

When the plane crashed he told them to get to that side of the island, it wouldn't take them long & then to pretend they were passengers.

You guys know more about this than I do, but even the image of the other island looked bogus to me.

:)
When the plane crashed the others were on the main island, at their settlement. Now they're at the octopus hatch on a second island. Different places.

What a really great thread! Notfes53, really excellent post up there. I was a little annoyed with Jack when I first watched the show for his reaction to the Kate/Sawyer monitor moment, then I practically fell in love with him after he pulled his trick. But I was still uneasy, thinking that it was a kind of sacrifice for the girl he loves (lame!) But then, a coworker & I were talking (he's just a viewer, not a crazy on-line theorizer like us - he learns all the crazy from me)....as soon as he said it, it made total sense...here's my new pet theory for Jack...
Jack wasn't upset that Kate & Sawyer were "together", he realized fully in that moment what total, creepy manipulative &%*^@)!s these people really are, and he got pissed. He's playing their game now, and while he hasn't had the practice Ben et al have had, he shows true promise:
Theres been plenty of discussion about the Others wanting to disable the leadership of the Losties (for whatever their reasons may be). Jack knows through so many of his interactions with them now who is in charge, and just what kind of latitude the non-leaders seem to have (zero). Whether Juliet's video plan was a scam or not, it indicates Ben's power. Not only do they not have anyone to tell them what to do, they have very little time to figure out a plan now to foil him. He only has to stay one step ahead of them. (We've seen, although Jack hasn't, that there is some kind of twisted honor to Ben & his "word", so that could totally work in his favor as well)
I think he's also realizing that the manipulation only works as long as he reacts the way the Others are expecting (for example, he's a Doctor, he would never intentionally hurt/kill someone - especially a patient!) He's tired of being f'd with, and he's not gonna put up with it any more. :clap: Yay!Jack!

I've been pretty annoyed by whiny Jack for about...2.5 seasons now. If this keeps up, he may be my new favorite. Now we just have to get Sayid back in on the action!

I think another major flaw in Jack's plan is that it doesn't seem to be taking into account the duplicitous Juliet.

Juliet's a doctor (fertility doctor, sure, but still a doctor). Are they trying to tell us that she couldn't stitch up an incision in someone's kidney sack as well as Jack can? Why isn't she doing anything? Why isn't Tom expecting her to do something? If Juliet wants Ben dead, the flaw in Jack's plan is simply for Juliet to kill Kate or have Kate killed. If Kate's dead, she doesn't radio Jack and Ben dies.

This pre-supposes, of course, that Juliet really does want Ben dead and that the Others had no reason to take Kate or Sawyer other than for leverage against Jack. Since there is apparently, a "list" from Jacob, that Jack isn't on, it would appear that, at least Kate is not expendable. But Jack can't know that, can he?

Juliet's a doctor (fertility doctor, sure, but still a doctor). Are they trying to tell us that she couldn't stitch up an incision in someone's kidney sack as well as Jack can? Why isn't she doing anything? Why isn't Tom expecting her to do something? If Juliet wants Ben dead, the flaw in Jack's plan is simply for Juliet to kill Kate or have Kate killed. If Kate's dead, she doesn't radio Jack and Ben dies.

Yeah I was wondering why Tom didn't stop to ask Juliet if she could do anything, I guess he was too shocked at what was happening to risk Ben's life. Also, i made the assumption that Jack did some sort of tricky complicated incision that only a skilled surgeon could stitch up. Either way i am looking forward to see how Juliet reacts to the situation and what she does in episode 7.

All nice thoughts...I do agree Jack is not that solid his plan will do much more than save Kate & Sawyer. I think he's confident he can patch up the intentional wound he created...and is MORE than confident he can safely remove Ben's tumor...I think he purposely "oversold" it's severity...he was just trying to rush the timing of the surgery.

But my original reason for starting this thread with regard to the flaw is: What if Pickett called Jack's bluff? What if he grabbed that walkie talkie outta Kate's hands and said "Jack...if you don't sew Ben back together THIS SECOND...I'm gonna shoot Kate in the foot...then her thigh...then her stomach...and you are gonna have to listen to her die."

Would Jack be able to sit there and listen to all that? It's as if he really doesn't have much hand at all, if the Others call his bluff....as much as the Other's (albeit Juliet) wanna save Ben...I think Jack would cave in an instant if he had to listen to Kate being shot over that walkie talkie.

By the way...as the OP...I feel obligated to re-hash the story Jack wants Kate to recount from the pilot:



Funny...that last line, now...Kate saying she would "run for the door"...After all her flashbacks...we now realize that's what she's the best at. I wonder where she'll run to now?

Just as anyone holding Kate and trying to fake out Jack couldn't know if Kate is telling the real story or not, Pickett couldn't know if Jack really fixed Benry or if he is lying and the others being silent because Jack still holds the upper hand. As long as things are happening out of sight they can't know who is telling the truth.

About Kate running. She most certainly didn't run when she first climbed out of her cage even though Sawyer told her to. It would seem she is changing. They all are. They have to.

Someone said Jack holding a gun on someone was pointless since they know his profile and he wouldn't shoot. After what they have been through, he is not the Jack who worked in a nice modern hospital but one who knows that survival requires some pretty extreme actions.

I wouldn't trust that he wouldn't shoot.

Someone said Jack holding a gun on someone was pointless since they know his profile and he wouldn't shoot. After what they have been through, he is not the Jack who worked in a nice modern hospital but one who knows that survival requires some pretty extreme actions.

I wouldn't trust that he wouldn't shoot.


This point is made clear with Sun, Colleen seemed to know about Sun and her profile
and she was convinced Sun wouldn't shoot.

I don't think Jack is kidding himself about the flaws in his plan. This doesn't change the fact that he feels like he must do SOMETHING to try and help them. He gave himself a chance to buy them some time, he did, really, the only thing he could short of shooting Ben and running around the complex haphazardly, which has already been proven a few times isn't the smartest way to go.

So Jack tried to turn the tables using his brain instead of force. It's a desperate plan to be sure, it's not a well thought out plan, but that doesn't mean it won't be effective.

I think Jack is also counting on Kate's ability to convey the truth to him beyond a simple story. I think he feels he will know if she is lying at gunpoint, and if they kill Kate or Sawyer I think Jack has every intention of letting Ben die.

As for making sense, no it doesn't make sense, but it's all Jack has to work with. He had to try something to get them out from under, and I think he feels he doesn't have a lot of chance to get out from under himself, or maybe he figures he can escape on his own later if they don't kill him, and they don't have any leverage.

I agree with most of your thoughts, but would go one step further... I don't think Jack really cares about himself at this point. I think all he cares about is getting Kate to safety (knowing that Sawyer goes with her as well) and turning the tables on "the others" since he can't trust any of them.
100%
One additional thought I had on why Jack didn't include Sawyer in his instructions to Kate on the walkie...

Jack is the only one besides Sawyer who knows that Sawyer also had a sexual interlude with Ana Lucia. Jack's opinion of Sawyer at this point could very well be one of disgust...maybe even thinking that Sawyer is just using Kate for his own personal desires as well. Thus he wouldn't have much consideration, at this stage, for Sawyer...even though I'm sure he knows that Sawyer goes along with the deal if Kate escapes. He just doesn't care either way about Sawyer at this point, and probably doesn't trust him as well. Just a thought.

Ben has known for close to three months about the tumor. That's "insta-surgery"? Plus Ben claimed more than just contact with the outside world. He said he would take Jack home.

And it's clear that the Others have significant resources. Arrangements could be made. Unless Ben prefers to have his spine operated on by a traumatized surgeon who hates his guts and hasn't touched a scalpel in three months, that's what he would do.

These are all valid concerns but we have also been told that Jack is a "Miracle Surgeon "who fixed his (now ex) wife's inoperable spine and was sought out by the Italian man looking for hope when there was none.

I don't know if this has been said, but when Jack tells Kate to recount the story he told her on the beach when she's safe, I feel he is trying to remind her to face her fear and then after 5 to act.
This reply is to answer previous posters that have said that Jack doesn't know what her situation is with Pickett, etc.
100%
Surely the outlaw couple is bright enough to figure out that the Others are going back and forth from the big island to the small island some how and will use Jack's head start to force the issue. Jack knows they have a sub and has probably asked himself "now why would they have a sub". Hopefully the two people who are supposed to be such brilliant criminals will come to this conclusion and ask the question "where's the boat"?

The problem is not really in the fact there are two islands. It's about fighting vs. giving up. Jack has an amazing amount of fight in him. Two islands wouldn't stand in his way, he would find a way out even if it meant swimming to his death. Sawyer and Kate had given up hope and that was their "proverbial nail in coffin". Sawyer has little care for his own life and Kate had let fear take control of her. Jack's coming through for them, and his reminder of the conversation on the beach: "only let the fear in for 5 seconds" makes all the difference.

Sorry, I haven't read all of the posts here, but I can answer the question posed in the thread title:

The flaw in Jack's plan is that it was Jack doing the planning. He's shown time and time again that he's a total blockhead, getting people in to bad situations because of his God complex, short temper and compulsive need to fix things. Now that Hunter John is back and in fine form, maybe the Losties will actually get something done.

Sorry, I haven't read all of the posts here, but I can answer the question posed in the thread title:

The flaw in Jack's plan is that it was Jack doing the planning. He's shown time and time again that he's a total blockhead, getting people in to bad situations because of his God complex, short temper and compulsive need to fix things. Now that Hunter John is back and in fine form, maybe the Losties will actually get something done.

I like Locke, but he's hardly brilliant. No character on Lost is perfect, but Locke can be manipulated rather easily. He allowed himself to be manipulated by Sawyer and by Ben, and he tends to put the island and his belief in the island ahead of the lives of the other Losties. Locke does not want to lose his ability to walk again, and therefore, he does everything the island "asks" of him, up to and including sacrifices.

I'm guessing you don't like Jack, but a blockhead? Um - no. I think Jack's plan is pretty good. He's using emotional and psychological manipulation to keep all the Others in line. They can't hurt Jack (at the moment) because he's the only person who can fix Ben, and he won't fix Ben if they hurt Kate and Sawyer. As for getting off one island and onto the other island, I would expect Kate and Sawyer, with their con-artist/fugitive backgrounds, to get creative. Jack can't do everything for them to get them off the island. That's up to them.

Hurley to the rescue! He should save the day and get the girl. Hands up - who wants to see a Hurley-Kate love scene? er....ok....just me then...

I like Locke, but he's hardly brilliant. No character on Lost is perfect, but Locke can be manipulated rather easily. He allowed himself to be manipulated by Sawyer and by Ben, and he tends to put the island and his belief in the island ahead of the lives of the other Losties. Locke does not want to lose his ability to walk again, and therefore, he does everything the island "asks" of him, up to and including sacrifices

All true, and very well stated, but John has obvious tracking skills, abilities with a knife and the magic psychedelic paste, so he's my man for now. :)

I'm guessing you don't like Jack, but a blockhead? Um - no.

I actually like Jack --I actually like his very dry sense of humor when he shows it-- but he's a perfect example of someone in a leadership position who needs his opposite to balance him out, to neuter his worst tendencies. Hmmmm....his opposite......why, could it be John? :) They make a good team, to be honest, but they've got that ego/man of science man of faith thing going on.

I'm going on the "let's look at his body of work" theory--just because he's finally gotten a clue after 69+ days on the Island doesn't negate the previous stuff.

I think Jack's plan is pretty good. He's using emotional and psychological manipulation to keep all the Others in line. They can't hurt Jack (at the moment) because he's the only person who can fix Ben, and he won't fix Ben if they hurt Kate and Sawyer.

Yes, but as soon as he's informed of that teensy tiny bit of info that he's not aware of, that they're on a small rock, not the main Island, his plan is rendered null and void.

As for getting off one island and onto the other island, I would expect Kate and Sawyer, with their con-artist/fugitive backgrounds, to get creative. Jack can't do everything for them to get them off the island. That's up to them

Live together, die alone.

Let's not forget that Sawyer was about three seconds away from oblivion when Jack called on the walkie-talkie. Even if John does find them and help them all get off the island, Jack put himself in danger and saved them at least from their immediate situation.

By Jack opening up Ben on the operating table, instead of just shooting him or holding him at gunpoint, he insures that they can't really do anything (including force his hand or kill him -that is, Jack) until Ben dies or Jack stitches him up. And by the way, no matter what Ben learns after the surgery, Jack did remove the tumor, after all. He could have followed through with Juliette's plan. But of course, this is all speculation. We shall see...

Ben dies and Pickett/Tom kills Jack

I actually think the opposite will happen.

Kate/Sawyer escape. They walkie-talkie Jack, and Jack stitches Benry back up. Benry lives (Michael Emerson is just too valuable to the show).

However, while Benry is recovering, many of The Others are pissed at Jack's little stunt, and they want Jack dead. Juliet reluctantly knows she has to protect Jack because, even though Jack didn't go along with her plan, he's her only potentially ally in overthrowing Benry.

My guess is that, during Benry's recovery process, Tom/Zeke or Pickett (but probably Pickett) tries to kill Jack, but then Juliet kills Pickett in order to save Jack's life.

With Benry incapacitated, this leads to an impasse among The Others within their hierarchy. Tom/Zeke and Juliet call a summit meeting amongst their leadership, which will ultimately include Miss Klugh, Adam, Amelia, and additional Others. As a group, they decide what to do with Jack, and who to elect as their interim leader until Benry recovers completely.

Tom/Zeke and Adam will be loyal to Benry. Juliet and Amelia will want a permanent change in leadership. Miss Klugh (and Others whom we've yet to be introduced to) could go either way. But the main point is: I see a power struggle coming, with Jack in the thick of it.

It's also possible that Kate and Sawyer may get recaptured before they can swim off the island...and The Others, already divided amongst themselves over the next course of action, decide to return to the Losties' beach and capture MORE Losties as additional leverage against Jack.

So maybe we'll see some additional Lostaways abducted near the end of the season, via the ocean by the beach? What an episode another mass-abduction would make!

My prediction for likely candidates for abduction would be Sun, Claire, Rose, Nikki, and some of the other women (especially those closest to child-bearing age). This would mobilize Jin, Charlie, Bernard, and Paulo to take action against The Others to rescue the important ladies in their lives, with Sayid becoming the beach camp's new leader in Jack's absence.

Eventually, we could see a scenario where the Losties are more evenly divided between Craphole Island (Locke, Sayid, Hurley, Charlie, Bernard, Desmond, Jin, Paulo, other red shirts) and captivity on Hydra Island (Jack, Kate, Sawyer, Claire, Sun, Rose, Nikki, other red shirts).

I think another major flaw in Jack's plan is that it doesn't seem to be taking into account the duplicitous Juliet.

Juliet's a doctor (fertility doctor, sure, but still a doctor). Are they trying to tell us that she couldn't stitch up an incision in someone's kidney sack as well as Jack can? Why isn't she doing anything? Why isn't Tom expecting her to do something? If Juliet wants Ben dead, the flaw in Jack's plan is simply for Juliet to kill Kate or have Kate killed. If Kate's dead, she doesn't radio Jack and Ben dies.

This pre-supposes, of course, that Juliet really does want Ben dead and that the Others had no reason to take Kate or Sawyer other than for leverage against Jack. Since there is apparently, a "list" from Jacob, that Jack isn't on, it would appear that, at least Kate is not expendable. But Jack can't know that, can he?Only thing is ... so Juliet manages to sew up Ben's kidney and stop the bleeding. There's still the tumor and an open spinal column. Who's gonna' take care of that? Only Jack. They know that and he knows that. No one's going to do anything other than what he says or Ben dies.