I don't have a screen cap (but I watched it several times in slow motion so I know I'm not crazy) but when Kate went into Sawyer's cage to join him, before she even began hitting the lock, the lock was already unlocked. Check it out and you'll see. This can't be a mistake. It's too out in the open.

I haven't watched it in slow-mo, but I am thinking the same as you - the lock was already open! She banged on it a couple of times with a rock and when they showed the lock it appeared that it had BEEN open, not that she had beaten it open. I smell a set-up.

It was totally unlocked even before she picked up the rock. It was actually funny!

Yeah, because Ben wanted them to get it on, so Jack could see them cuddling in the cage later, when he got into the viewing room.
Remember how the alarm went off when Carl (the young boy) escaped? No alarms this time... you know someone (if not Ben) was watching those monitors, hoping that K and S would do exactly what they did...so that Jack could become distressed. Give him yet another reason to do the surgery. I think that darn near everything that happens on this Other island is controlled by the Others, and everything they say or do has an ulterior motive.

so yeah, I believe you guys are right when you say that lock was WAY too easy to open, and perhaps already open. They saw Kate climb out thru the bars the first time, so they could expect she'd do it again.

a long-winded way to say, "You're right!" :)

Ya know, I'm not sure if the lock was open or not, but even if it was, it took like a second to pick. But this is nothing new. We've known that the only thing keeping Sawyer there is his broken spirit, and the only thing keeping Kate is Sawyer.

But I agree, it seems to be part of the others plan all along, that the cages are not what hold them. Not so sure that it's only b/c of Jack though. It seems that there are a lot of factions/intentions amongst the others, and the cages have been 'escapable' way before the evening that Jack gets out of his holding tank. For me what was telling about tonight's epi with Kate and Sawyer was twofold. We learned that Jack was possibly not intended to be taken (implied since Pickett said that Jack was not on the list, Ben just wants to be fixed) and the build up of making Kate believe that Saywer was going to be killed ending in Tom's erie words that what ever Sawyer wanted to say, he better say them tonight.

Now I hate to postuate this b/c I'm not too fond of the idea, but maybe the lock was open (and all the other easy escape things like the open bars on Kate's cage) b/c getting Sawyer and Kate together was the whole purpose behind the abduction. Either to overcome their vices, or to reproduce (definately don't like that idea).

But with the new info this epi, I believe that Kate and Sawyer are the focus, and EVERTHING that has been done to them is no accident.

the only thing keeping Sawyer there is his broken spirit...

aww...that's so sad. I mean, I guess I knew it, but reading it like that just made me sad. His spirit is broken.

or...maybe it just seems that way? Maybe he is playing for the cameras? Cuz I'm sure he is aware of them, aware that he's being watched.
(and I'm not usually so optimistic. Hmmm....I must be gettin' soft.) :D

the lock was already open , the others made kate 'do' sawyer.

Maybe Jack's door had been unlocked for awhile, too.

None of them have made any real attempts at escaping since the first day. Whatever they (the others) are doing, its working.

the lock was already open , the others made kate 'do' sawyer.

Even if the lock was open, nobody made Kate "do" anything. She was eager on her own.

Also... appears to be locked here:
http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=1196&pos=537

Could be the force of the rock hitting it popped it open, though - I've been able to do it with a hammer on cheap locks...

Even if the lock was open, nobody made Kate "do" anything. She was eager on her own.

Also... appears to be locked here:
http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=1196&pos=537

Could be the force of the rock hitting it popped it open, though - I've been able to do it with a hammer on cheap locks...

Yea, it's locked in that pic, but when you watch the show and Kate walks over to the cage, pick up a rock and goes to hit the lock, it isi absolutely already unlocked.

so was she blind for those few seconds and just decided the rock MUST be used even though she could see that the lock was open? sounds like a filming error to me.

if they were really desperate to get out they could have broke out at night and used wood as a floatation device to get across the island gap. its not impossible. of course im not writing the story which has to be a continuous tow-along with writing mechanisms to shift leverage into the others favor.. cause succeeding at anything for the Losties would mean ending the show.


the lock was already open , the others made kate 'do' sawyer.

When I opened this thread I was confused and wondering when John Locke was closed in this episode. oops! Having the lock open fits in with the idea that the others wanted Kate and Sawyer to make love.

but it could have been a production decision to leave the lock open so that when Kate bangs on it with a rock it opens easily and quickly. if this is the case, they probably didn't mean to show the lock open and it's a production error.

Yeah, because Ben wanted them to get it on, so Jack could see them cuddling in the cage later, when he got into the viewing room.
Remember how the alarm went off when Carl (the young boy) escaped? No alarms this time... you know someone (if not Ben) was watching those monitors, hoping that K and S would do exactly what they did...so that Jack could become distressed. Give him yet another reason to do the surgery. I think that darn near everything that happens on this Other island is controlled by the Others, and everything they say or do has an ulterior motive.

Ben needed Jack to want to do the surgery. He needed Jack to want to leave the island. therefore Jack seeing Kate and Sawyer making love, would push any guy to want to leave. It was all a set up. Which would explain why everyone seem to clear out, giving Kate and Sawyer enough time to make love. How convenience was that? No one show up, no one interrupted them, until they were finished

Ben needed Jack to want to do the surgery. He needed Jack to want to leave the island. therefore Jack seeing Kate and Sawyer making love, would push any guy to want to leave. It was all a set up. Which would explain why everyone seem to clear out, giving Kate and Sawyer enough time to make love. How convenience was that? No one show up, no one interrupted them, until they were finished

Though saying that, I think when jack said he wanted to leave was just a plan to get ben under the knife, to then unleash his real plan of letting kate and saywer go free.

Yeah i defo think the lock was a set up by the others, perhaps for Jack to see and drive him to do the surgery and get off the island. Though Jack didnt fall for the trap and made one of his own.

Though saying that, I think when jack said he wanted to leave was just a plan to get ben under the knife, to then unleash his real plan of letting kate and saywer go free.

Yeah i defo think the lock was a set up by the others, perhaps for Jack to see and drive him to do the surgery and get off the island. Though Jack didnt fall for the trap and made one of his own.

Exactly. I think Jack is smart enough to realize that they WANTED him to see that. So he went with it. I think those who are so great at cons (according to Ben) are getting conned by the one they least likely expected it from--Jack. Of course, that would also make his plan all the more effective since they weren't planning on it.

This isn't the first time we've seen the Others miscalculate the Losties. The woman Sun shot was so sure she wouldn't shoot.

aww...that's so sad. I mean, I guess I knew it, but reading it like that just made me sad. His spirit is broken.

or...maybe it just seems that way? Maybe he is playing for the cameras? Cuz I'm sure he is aware of them, aware that he's being watched.
(and I'm not usually so optimistic. Hmmm....I must be gettin' soft.) :D

I think you are right, Lija. I don't think he's known for long but I think he realized they were being watched and listened to when Benry threatened Kate with the "pacemaker". He's hard headed as all get out but he's not stupid.
I think he's bumfuzzled because he can't figure out how to get off the island. He thinks the boat is with the Losties and has no idea there's a sub!

I doubt he even noticed that the lock wasn't locked or anything because he's thinking, "Where can I go? I hurt like hell. I'm tired of being beaten and having to haul rocks. I don't even get a bath and I'm eating fish biscuits!"

i think juliet set it up for her. what if ben or juliet came up with the "let jack see them" plan? juliet first let kate try to persuade jack in his cell but when it didnt work, juliet told kate on the way back that she would arrange for sawyer's cage to be unlocked so she could climb in and work her magic. then, jack would be lured out of his cell and blah blah blah.... i dont think that kate's silence when sawyer asked if she loved him meant that she does. she was going along with a plan and did what she needed to keep it going.

:) how was that shot in the dark about the unlocked lock?

Exactly. I think Jack is smart enough to realize that they WANTED him to see that. So he went with it. I think those who are so great at cons (according to Ben) are getting conned by the one they least likely expected it from--Jack. Of course, that would also make his plan all the more effective since they weren't planning on it.

This isn't the first time we've seen the Others miscalculate the Losties. The woman Sun shot was so sure she wouldn't shoot.

That is such a great point. Didn't it seem a little too convenient that the door was unlocked, he was told to try the door, the gun vault was OPEN, and and empty monitor room? I smelled setup the second Jack heard the voice and especially when I saw Jack look at that monitor. Jack is, imo, much too smart to not have suspected a setup with every turn.

And Ben just happens to walk in behind Jack, side with him ("I was surprised too"), remaining perfectly calm while Jack has a gun and is free from his "tank."

I remember back at Season 2's finale, everyone was wondering what Jack, Kate, Sawyer, and Hurley could have in common to be on Michael's list. More and more, this season is convincing me that the list was a (now in retrospect) fairly obvious forecast of the triangle between Jack, Kate & Sawyer to become a prominent cause to convince Jack to operate on Ben - Kate and Sawyer are only there as props with which to manipulate Jack's emotions. Hurley was merely a message delivery man and much too meek to chance any violent opposition.

I've watched it in slo mo a couple of times and the lock is closed in the shot just before Kate climbs out of the cage. It is also closed before she hits it with the rock, it comes open after the first hit. The problem is they cut to the cover shot from inside the cage and it shows her hitting it two more times when we know it is already open, but it is definitely closed before she hits it the first time.

Wether or not the cage is locked when she hits it, I definitely believe it was some kind of set up for Jack to see them getting it on. Ben, you are a nasty little devil! :twisted:

i'm not a shipper...

but going off the idea that people conning people by going along with the plan after realizing it's a set up... what if kate had sex with sawyer only to save him? she knew somehow that jack would find out... now it's not to say that kate doesn't like sawyer, just maybe she wouldn't have had sex with him otherwise at this point in their relationship.

annyway... any screen shots of when the lock was open would be great.

They are really good at trying to catch all mistakes.. but it certainly is possible that this is one (we are shown the lock - locked - and then unlocked) but as you said the lock being opened does fit with the idea that Kate and Sawyer are being manipulated into a bonding/intimite setting.

Sawyer has been told that there's nowhere to run (Alcatraz island) and he has lost his spirit to fight. Kate is struggling with seeing him this way and trying to give him hope.
Remember "Hope will set them free"!

I'd love everyone's thoughts on this...

For me the thing that stands out.. (and everyone seems to have forgotten) is what happened when Kate was taken to Ben.... remember when Kate came back her wrists were quite mangled and bloody.. she has never said what really happened to her during the time she was gone...and remember "you taste like strawberries" this seems to indicate she did eat some of the breakfast we saw on the table with Ben on the beach.

Was she really mistreated?... was she told that she had to keep Sawyer in line or under control to protect Jack? We really should be questioning her motivations in all her actions... not just related to the "Who will Kate choose" angle. Take away the focus on the triangle as being romantic and her motivation may be quite different.

And strawberries... were the bloody wrists just for show and we will all be shocked at some point to see (in flashback) Ben and Kate enjoying breakfast on the beach while they discuss their plans!

I don't really believe that.. but there's definately many ways to interpret everything that happens on Lost Island and it's fun to speculate... I have my favorite characters as we all do but I try to keep my mind open to all angles and not focus just on the shipper angles. It seems like everything that has happened, everything they have been told (even by overhearing) is a con/ they are being manipulated. The question is what's the end game?

When I opened this thread I was confused and wondering when John Locke was closed in this episode. oops! Having the lock open fits in with the idea that the others wanted Kate and Sawyer to make love.

but it could have been a production decision to leave the lock open so that when Kate bangs on it with a rock it opens easily and quickly. if this is the case, they probably didn't mean to show the lock open and it's a production error.

Sawyer has been told that there's nowhere to run (Alcatraz island) and he has lost his spirit to fight. Kate is struggling with seeing him this way and trying to give him hope.
Remember "Hope will set them free"!
And of course, Sayid's favorite line:

"Hope is a very dangerous thing to lose."

;)

When I opened this thread I was confused and wondering when John Locke was closed in this episode. oops! Having the lock open fits in with the idea that the others wanted Kate and Sawyer to make love.

but it could have been a production decision to leave the lock open so that when Kate bangs on it with a rock it opens easily and quickly. if this is the case, they probably didn't mean to show the lock open and it's a production error.

I saw what you saw. It opened with the first hit but it didn't twist so it wasn't supposed to be obvious. I would bet it was just to make the shooting of the scene go faster rather than stopping to open the lock and starting again.

If you want to see errors, watch the 1st indian Jones movie. When he brings the large book to the government people for the first meeting, one of the straps falls open when he drops it on the table yet a few moments later he is unlatching both straps.

I've watched it in slo mo a couple of times and the lock is closed in the shot just before Kate climbs out of the cage. It is also closed before she hits it with the rock, it comes open after the first hit. The problem is they cut to the cover shot from inside the cage and it shows her hitting it two more times when we know it is already open, but it is definitely closed before she hits it the first time.

I don't think we are supposed to notice it is open. I don't see a set up, just people with remotes and way to much spare time. Of course that does include me. :redface:

sillymom57....good points. we know that sawyer was told about the pacemaker, and that he shouldn't tell kate anything about it (for her sake). what has kate been told? i think she's been told what's really going on on this island (for whatever reason---but that's another conversation) and she's also been told not to tell anyone what she knows.

you're right. we are focusing too much on "who will she choose", which, i think, is what the writers want us to focus on. we really need to focus on why kate should choose either one of them. (remember, this isn't a soap opera!!)

just a few thoughts

this is likely just a prop issue. Evangeline likely cant smash open a real lock so a prop lock was set up to easily come undone and it likely came undone a bit too easy during several takes. Having worked in tv a bit I know how easy it is for props to work against you at any given time. With that said, there is credence to the ideas that the "unlocked" lock might be a part of a set up. The theories are clever but once again I think this is an issue where Kate can smash a lock open but Evangeline needed some assistance from a prop master.

All I have is a dime here. Can I get 8 cents in change cause that, my friend, is my two cents.

I really think this puts doubt on Kate. How could she not notice the lock is open. As for production problems with the shot, i dont think so. If we all saw it so easily, it is hard to believe all the editors missed it. IT WAS A CLOSE UP ON PURPOSE!!!!!!!!!
she is collaberating with the "others". I dont see any other way to look at this.

SHE IS A TRAITOR

I think you are right, Lija. I don't think he's known for long but I think he realized they were being watched and listened to when Benry threatened Kate with the "pacemaker". He's hard headed as all get out but he's not stupid.
I think he's bumfuzzled because he can't figure out how to get off the island. He thinks the boat is with the Losties and has no idea there's a sub!

I doubt he even noticed that the lock wasn't locked or anything because he's thinking, "Where can I go? I hurt like hell. I'm tired of being beaten and having to haul rocks. I don't even get a bath and I'm eating fish biscuits!"
aww, poor baby! I bet he hurts like hell--everyone who walks on the set beats him! Can't help but root for him and hope they all get out of there somehow.


That is such a great point. Didn't it seem a little too convenient that the door was unlocked, he was told to try the door, the gun vault was OPEN, and and empty monitor room?

And Ben just happens to walk in behind Jack, side with him ("I was surprised too"), remaining perfectly calm while Jack has a gun and is free from his "tank."
Whether or not the cage is locked when she hits it, I definitely believe it was some kind of set up for Jack to see them getting it on. Ben, you are a nasty little devil! :twisted:
Oh yeah, I think you're both right. I definitely thought "setup" too. Also, anyone who's spent even a short time w/ Jack knows he's not the killing type. Ben wanted Jack to see that video.

... How could she not notice the lock was open? If we all saw it so easily, it is hard to believe all the editors missed it.
Well, when ya put it that way...
LOL...yeah, how could Kate not have seen the lock was open?
Maybe it's like mikey said in the quote below...
it might be easy for "Kate" to break the lock, but not Evie herself.

This is likely just a prop issue. Evangeline likely can't smash open a real lock so a prop lock was set up to easily come undone and it likely came undone a bit too easy during several takes.
With that said, there is credence to the ideas that the "unlocked" lock might be a part of a set-up.

If it was easy for Kate and Sawyer to get free, it was no mere coincidence that at the same time Jack was given a much too easy way of escape - at least escape to the room with the monitors. This was obviously a set up. The question is, did Ben, Juliet, and co. wait for the right opportunity, hoping Kate would do what they anticipated, or did Kate work out a bargain with them ahead of time?