It wasn't because they were "bait", as Sawyer suggested, was it?

Kate maybe, but the "spies" should have known they couldn't threaten Jack with Sawyer - there's no love lost there,

So why are those two there?

I don't know either. My guess is that they are only pawns in an elaborate plan to get Jack to want to operate on Ben. The plan was for Sawyer and Kate to fall in love so that Jack would be freed up to fall for Juliet. Juliet could then convince Jack to save Ben. The Others put together the plan to capture J/K/S while Ben was still in captivity. I suppose Ben could have communicated to The Others on the Hatch computer during Lockdown and told them the plan.

I guess Ben was going to approach Jack to be honest with him and ask him to save him. But then he got captured by Danielle and beaten to a pulp. He realized that the losties hated The Others and simply asking Jack wouldn't work. So he tried to manipulate them.

Why does he want Sawyer's respect? Or was the whole episode with Sawyer simply a way to get Sawyer to listen to his speech about being lonely so Sawyer would go with Kate?

here what i think:

they want jack, so they needed kate, to convince jack to ultimately do whatever they really need him for. after watching and observing our losties they might have realized as a back up plan, they may need to use sawyer, to convince kate to do the. convincing. so i think that the two really are just very very unlucky. but,.. what do i know?.

They can use Sawyer to make Kate convince Jack to do the surgery. :shrug:

here what i think:

they want jack, so they needed kate, to convince jack to ultimately do whatever they really need him for. after watching and observing our losties they might have realized as a back up plan, they may need to use sawyer, to convince kate to do the. convincing. so i think that the two really are just very very unlucky. but,.. what do i know?.
See, that's what I don't get. There have been two interesting lines so far - one was Alex telling Kate she wasn't even SUPPOSED to be in that cage (where was she supposed to be, then?), and the other was from last night - "the doctor wasn't even on Jacob's (Ethan's) list".

If Kate and Sawyer were only on the list to be "convincers" for Jack, and Jack wasn't even supposed to be on the list, there would have been NO list.



Why does he want Sawyer's respect? Or was the whole episode with Sawyer simply a way to get Sawyer to listen to his speech about being lonely so Sawyer would go with Kate?
I wondered about that too - if Sawyer was on the original list before Jack got on, WHY did they want him? Did they hope to "convert" him?

Can't see Sawyer falling for that.

I don't know either. My guess is that they are only pawns in an elaborate plan to get Jack to want to operate on Ben. The plan was for Sawyer and Kate to fall in love so that Jack would be freed up to fall for Juliet. Juliet could then convince Jack to save Ben.
I think that's almost it...my take was that Jack's first week in captivity was meant to wear him down, and the TV showing the unfortunate events of October 2004 to give him a shred of hope. The final blow would be Jack's witnessing of Kate's and Sawyer's intimacy -- I believe he was let out of his cage for that reason. (Though I don't know why they would let him loose in an arsenal...) The effect the Others would expect that to have on him would be, "Screw this! I just want to get the heck out of this place, so hop on the table, Ben." Which was apparently the reaction they got. Jack is just at the same time more upright and a little sneakier than they bargained for.


I guess Ben was going to approach Jack to be honest with him and ask him to save him. But then he got captured by Danielle and beaten to a pulp. He realized that the losties hated The Others and simply asking Jack wouldn't work. So he tried to manipulate them.
Interesting thought. Although it wouldn't take a genius to figure out that a representative of a group that's kidnapped and killed the survivors might not be 100% welcome in their camp. You raise an excellent question -- what was Ben doing all the way over there by himself?


Why does he want Sawyer's respect? Or was the whole episode with Sawyer simply a way to get Sawyer to listen to his speech about being lonely so Sawyer would go with Kate?
I think you've hit on it. That way, Jack's got nothing to stick around for. There might be another reason we don't know yet, because I don't think Ben would have approved of Pickett executing Sawyer. Notice that he took off on his mission of murder the moment Ben went under.
See, that's what I don't get. There have been two interesting lines so far - one was Alex telling Kate she wasn't even SUPPOSED to be in that cage (where was she supposed to be, then?), and the other was from last night - "the doctor wasn't even on Jacob's (Ethan's) list".

What makes you think that Jacob and Ethan are the same person? Ben called him "Ethan" when he sent him on out.

I think there are two lists -- the list of 'good' people that Ethan made (and Goodwin on the other side) and the list Ms. Klugh sent Michael back with. The two had entirely different purposes.

What makes you think that Jacob and Ethan are the same person? Ben called him "Ethan" when he sent him on out.

I think there are two lists -- the list of 'good' people that Ethan made (and Goodwin on the other side) and the list Ms. Klugh sent Michael back with. The two had entirely different purposes.
Interesting. I thought someone said Ben had called Ethan "Jacob". My bad.

Don't know if I buy the "two lists" thing though - hasn't been alluded to, though they did try and snatch Claire. If there were another list, she'd have been on it.

Still, why Sawyer? He would only serve to antagonize Jack. And I don't buy the "they took him for leverage with Kate", because Ben himself said he was surprised by what happened with Kate and Sawyer, and would have placed his money on Jack.

A wild guess is Kate and Sawyer were the only names on Jacob's list that were "must haves" in whatever the Others' original plan consisted of. Since Juliet is a fertility doctor, perhaps Kate and Sawyer were to be her test subjects, which could be related to the comment Alex made about Kate not originally supposed to being in that cage. Perhaps she to was supposed to be in a controlled (read: more comfortable) environment. Ben is the one who threw a monkey wrench in the works when he found out he had a tumor and that Jack is a spinal surgeon. He took it upon himself to change the original plan/list and also to change the way the Losties were handled upon arrival at the Hydra Station.

Still, why Sawyer? He would only serve to antagonize Jack. And I don't buy the "they took him for leverage with Kate", because Ben himself said he was surprised by what happened with Kate and Sawyer, and would have placed his money on Jack.
Didn't he say that to Jack, though? He's trying to gain Jack's sympathy. I think Sawyer's there to take away Kate, who the Others have calculated is the only reason Jack wouldn't jump at their offer of a ride.

What I found strange about Picketts statement is even if Shephard wasn't on the list, why does that justify shooting Sawyer?

Ben is the one who threw a monkey wrench in the works when he found out he had a tumor and that Jack is a spinal surgeon. He took it upon himself to change the original plan/list and also to change the way the Losties were handled upon arrival at the Hydra Station.

This sounds very reasonable and likely what happened.

What I found strange about Picketts statement is even if Shephard wasn't on the list, why does that justify shooting Sawyer?



This sounds very reasonable and likely what happened.

That was an odd bit of dialouge, but I don't think a connection should be drawn between Jack's name NOT being Jacob's list and Pickett going after Sawyer to kill him. IMO, Pickett has been looking for a chance to exact revenge for the death of his wife (Colleen) and Sawyer happens to be the (irrationally labeled) scapegoat. I think Pickett went lone wolf and was acting outside of his authority.

Hmm another possibility could be that Pickett was thinking, "damn we wasted all this time on these Losties, instead of our master plan, Shepphard wasn't even on the list, Ben took things into his own hands and changed the plan, so now I'm going to make my own decision and shoot Sawyer"

It would seem that the K/S pairing up was intentional in that they wanted them to eventually hook up. They placed them in side by side cages the way they do with animals when they want them to accept each other. Their pairing wasn't random nor was the placement of the cages or the fact that it was all being monitored.

K/S were used to make Jack do the operation out of his own free will just like Ben had hoped for. With Jack's cell door conveniently left open, along with the monitor room's door, at the same time K & S were naked in the cage was not a coincidence either. Ben meant for Jack to see them so that he could exploit Jack's feelings about Kate. Ben didn't count on Jack trying another escape in the middle of the operation.

It seems that the Others had no other use for K/S other than to influence Jack's decisions which isn't to say that that won't have a use for them in the future.

Do we know that Kate and Sawyer were on Jacob's list?

I think what happened was that Goodwin and Ethan were sent to the crash sites to compile lists for Jacob. Jacob then decided who he wanted and sent the Others to collect them. Jack wasn't on that list. Then Ben gets a tumor and wants Jack. But he also takes Kate and Sawyer to use to convince Jack to do the surgery.

If that's true, they really are excellent con . . . people?

That's a lot to leave up in the air - that Kate and Sawyer will profess their love, and that Jack just might see it, and that he would actually act in a manner that would seem contrary to a man scorned. And to let him get a gun, and HOPE that he wouldn't shoot you, before you could convince him to put it down.

Dunno.

Didn't ben originally set out by himself to bring Locke back? So why Locke left off of Michael's list.

That was an odd bit of dialouge, but I don't think a connection should be drawn between Jack's name NOT being Jacob's list and Pickett going after Sawyer to kill him. IMO, Pickett has been looking for a chance to exact revenge for the death of his wife (Colleen) and Sawyer happens to be the (irrationally labeled) scapegoat. I think Pickett went lone wolf and was acting outside of his authority.

Yeah it was very odd. That's why when I first heard it in the episode I thought they were talking about Sawyer and not Jack (what I heard was "Sawyer's not even on Jacob's list") which would've made a lot of sense. But now that I read they said "Shepard" I have no idea wtf they were talking about.

The point about Sawyer and Kate being subjects for the fertility doctor is a very poignant angle. They must have a fertility doctor for a reason, and using the "losties" as test subjects would be appropriate.

Jack was not needed at all, except by Ben.

Pickett: "Shephard was not even on Jacob's list."

Sawyer and Kate are the the two that Jacob evidently wants. For what reason, I can't guess. In the mean time they are used by Ben to help Ben's personal side-project: to get Jack to save him.

Whatever con game we have seen from Ben towards Jack, Kate, and Sawyer, is most likely mostly/all about helping his side project: himself. Not sure how Jacob would like that, especially with the effect it is having on Kate and Sawyer.

Jacob must be the "not a forgiving man" that Ben spoke of back in hatch as prisoner. Jacob might be the man with the eyepatch, yet unseen, or some future big reveal.

Ms Klugh made the final list of who to bring to Others. Jack would have been on Ethan's list.

Alex saying that Kate should not have been in that cage might mean Kate is supposed to be elsewhere, for Jacob, but is instead being held for Ben's purposes to get Jack's help.

. IMO, Pickett has been looking for a chance to exact revenge for the death of his wife (Colleen) and Sawyer happens to be the (irrationally labeled) scapegoat. I think Pickett went lone wolf and was acting outside of his authority.

Slightly off topic, even though I agree with you, I hate this story-line. It doesn't make ANY sense. First, when Colleen dies Jack was right there, if he was just looking for a scapegoat, it would have been Jack. Now, that he's had a bit of time to dwell, if he wanted to make someone suffer like he did, wouldn't it be Sawyer he wanted to suffer? Sawyer loves Kate, Pickett loved Colleen - so wouldn't it make more sense to kill Kate? He's always not liked Sawyer, but wouldn't him having to live after seeing Kate die be the vengance he's after?

Basically, Pickett wanting to kill Sawyer makes NO SENSE. But, unlike all the other things on Lost that don't make sense (ie. the smoke monster) they are giving the answer, the answer is just illogical and drives me crazy.

Slightly off topic, even though I agree with you, I hate this story-line. It doesn't make ANY sense. First, when Colleen dies Jack was right there, if he was just looking for a scapegoat, it would have been Jack. Now, that he's had a bit of time to dwell, if he wanted to make someone suffer like he did, wouldn't it be Sawyer he wanted to suffer? Sawyer loves Kate, Pickett loved Colleen - so wouldn't it make more sense to kill Kate? He's always not liked Sawyer, but wouldn't him having to live after seeing Kate die be the vengance he's after?

Basically, Pickett wanting to kill Sawyer makes NO SENSE. But, unlike all the other things on Lost that don't make sense (ie. the smoke monster) they are giving the answer, the answer is just illogical and drives me crazy.

If Pickett was a "rational" killer he would hunt down Sun and make Jin watch him execute her, but he's not, so we're left with who he can "pick on", and that's Sawyer. Sawyer was trouble for Pickett from the start, and he was able to observe a certain amount of affection between he and Kate. IMO, that gave Pickett the ideal person to get his revenge with, even though Sawyer had NOTHING to do with his wife's death.

Strangley, it sounded like Alex's voice letting Jack out of door, but that lead nowhere except (intentionally?) into Ben's hands. If intentional, what does that say about Alex?

I think the Others are playing the love triangle to its full potential. They know Sawyer loves Kate, they know Kate loves Sawyer, and they know Jack loves Kate. The only way to "break" Jack is to use Kate, and the only way to break Kate is to use Sawyer. I think Kate was broken in the first episode. I really can't think of other feasible reasons why the Others would want Sawyer and Kate around, but I also don't think that it was an accident that they ended up being captured - Michael had specific instructions, and the Others had been studying these people.

I've been trying to figure out how Juliet fits into my theory though...that's a toughie. I can certainly see how she was being used to break Jack as well. But did they expect that he'd grow to trust one of "them" completely? Maybe she was there to help things along.

Strangley, it sounded like Alex's voice letting Jack out of door, but that lead nowhere except (intentionally?) into Ben's hands. If intentional, what does that say about Alex?
YES, and yet she wasn't there, and voices that were not intended to go through that intercom (including Alex, who they had dragged away) have found their way through it. Like it was meant to be - he was meant to see what he saw. I don't think Ben planned it.

I think the Others are playing the love triangle to its full potential. They know Sawyer loves Kate, they know Kate loves Sawyer, and they know Jack loves Kate. The only way to "break" Jack is to use Kate, and the only way to break Kate is to use Sawyer. I think Kate was broken in the first episode. I really can't think of other feasible reasons why the Others would want Sawyer and Kate around, but I also don't think that it was an accident that they ended up being captured - Michael had specific instructions, and the Others had been studying these people.

I don't want to give the Others that much credit. :71: But you never know . . .


I've been trying to figure out how Juliet fits into my theory though...that's a toughie. I can certainly see how she was being used to break Jack as well. But did they expect that he'd grow to trust one of "them" completely? Maybe she was there to help things along.
Ben did imply it was no accident that Juliet looked so much like Jack's ex-wife. :23:

Jack was not needed at all, except by Ben.

Pickett: "Shephard was not even on Jacob's list."

Sawyer and Kate are the the two that Jacob evidently wants. For what reason, I can't guess. In the mean time they are used by Ben to help Ben's personal side-project: to get Jack to save him.

This is why I have to believe that Kate and Sawyer isn't on Jacob's list either. If we are to assume that Jacob is relatively high up the chain of command, would Danny kill Sawyer if Sawyer was on that list and wanted by Jacob?
100%
Slightly off topic, even though I agree with you, I hate this story-line. It doesn't make ANY sense. First, when Colleen dies Jack was right there, if he was just looking for a scapegoat, it would have been Jack. Now, that he's had a bit of time to dwell, if he wanted to make someone suffer like he did, wouldn't it be Sawyer he wanted to suffer? Sawyer loves Kate, Pickett loved Colleen - so wouldn't it make more sense to kill Kate? He's always not liked Sawyer, but wouldn't him having to live after seeing Kate die be the vengance he's after?

Basically, Pickett wanting to kill Sawyer makes NO SENSE. But, unlike all the other things on Lost that don't make sense (ie. the smoke monster) they are giving the answer, the answer is just illogical and drives me crazy.

Well, he can't pick on Jack b/c I have a feeling that Ben has made it clear to everyone that Jack is off-limits. Jack's purpose is very important, he's there to save Ben's life. So yeah, it makes sense that Pickett didn't go after Jack.

Pickett is a bully-pure and simple. Even worse, he's a bully who's grieving the loss of his wife. So he's just taking it out on whoever's there. That's how bullies act, it doesn't matter if the person did anything to you or not, you just pick on them b/c you can, and b/c you're a bully. He already had a bone to pick with Sawyer b/c Sawyer has pushed his buttons a few times, and now PIckett's hurting and just wants to take it out on someone.

I think there are two lists -- the list of 'good' people that Ethan made (and Goodwin on the other side) and the list Ms. Klugh sent Michael back with. The two had entirely different purposes.

Again, good thought Ramesses...

I believe there is "The List" and there was a list Ben/Mrs. Klugh sent Michael with back to the camp to gather. Those folks were strictly to get Jack to do the surgery. They sent Hurley back to camp. Hurley was strictly the messenger.

It was Goodwin that told Ana Lucia that the children were included on the list because they were "good". Implying that anyone not on the list were "bad".

I need to go back and check the comment Alex said to Kate about not being in the cage.

I feel something happened at that breakfast with Ben that changed his mind about how he was going to persuade Jack to do the surgery.

I wonder if we will actually see an episode of the Breakfast Club this Season??? It would sure clear some things up...

Even if they were mostly "bait" I think they were doing psych profiling on them. They really messed with Sawyer's mind, and well, you saw what they did to Kate in "I Do".
It's possible there is another purpose but I doubt it.

See, that's what I don't get. There have been two interesting lines so far - one was Alex telling Kate she wasn't even SUPPOSED to be in that cage (where was she supposed to be, then?), and the other was from last night - "the doctor wasn't even on Jacob's (Ethan's) list".

If Kate and Sawyer were only on the list to be "convincers" for Jack, and Jack wasn't even supposed to be on the list, there would have been NO list.




I wondered about that too - if Sawyer was on the original list before Jack got on, WHY did they want him? Did they hope to "convert" him?

Can't see Sawyer falling for that.

im not so sure she said "she" ..........did she?

Just because Jack wasn't on Jacob's list doesn't mean that Sawyer and Kate were on the list.

I think it's within the realm of possibility that they are there to manipulate Jack into doing what they want him to do. This is Ben's operation, his plot.

As for Pickett taking out his aggression on Sawyer, he knows that he'll be able to watch Kate suffer because she's more emotional. He wants to see it. Sawyer would mourn, but would probably do so silently and Pickett wouldn't get to revel in the grief like he wants to.

There might be more to the whole deal than we are seeing but it's explainable within the context of what we have seen.

Also, I don't think Ben was every coming for Locke. I think he was telling Locke that to manipulate them. We haven't seen Ben do anything but lie through his teeth constantly. Everyone seems to throw around his assertion that "We're not the killers" despite it being shown clearly Goodwin snapping someone's neck, Sawyer's assertion that Juliet wouldn't hesitate to kill Claire, and Pickett wanting to kill Sawyer. They are killers, and they are liars. Nothing that comes from any of the Others should be taken as evidence of anything including what Ben tells Locke.

We are told that the lists from Goodwin and Ethan were supposed to be the "good" ones and those were the ones to be dragged off. If that is to be taken at face value why would they try to drag off Eko? How in the world would he ever make the good list? Everything they say or do is a lie. Yet another example of information we have been fed that is easily disproved.

Eko gave a reasoning which I felt was reasonably plausible (at least in the Tail section parts) that perhaps the strongest where taken first to make extraction of the ones they really wanted easier? My guess is those would have been killed or quickly carted off to some holding place?

Or the other idea is that Goodwin doesn't really have a proper 'radar' to decide who is good and not good, and only went by what was presented to him. Eko actions did point to a man who was pious, and intent on helping people.

Still, I'm hoping that at some later date it will become more clear what 'critieria' the others have been using to select their abductees.

Didn't ben originally set out by himself to bring Locke back? So why Locke left off of Michael's list.


chitizzler, if you're still reading-- I thought I'd address your post. :)

IMO, Ben just told John that in order to manipulate him. he was probably
there (like someone posted) to talk to Jack. After being tortured, he most
likely decided to do things differently.

I think Kate and Sawyer are being imprisoned not only as leverage to force Jack to do the surgery, but The Others are prodding Skate together romantically to push Jack into deciding to become "one of them" (an Other).

Im not very good at theories and speculating, but i'll have a go! I believe that theres a connection between kate not being pregnant in her flashback and the fact that Juliette is a fertility doctor. Sawyer and Kate were put in the cages together. Why not Kate and JacK? Sawyer obviously has no fertility problems as her fathered a child but Jack has never fathered a child.
Further back in the season there was mention of bears being able to get the fish biscuit quicker than Sawyer. Were the bears involved in a fertitily experiment (e.g) entering the females cage?) What's their plan? Could they actually be using Kate and Sawyer as as scientific experiment to produce more offspring for the others??

Anyone get where i'm coming from??

Hey mattey11, I have been a believer in the fertility theory, and a lot seems to be pointing to that direction. Clearly the Others have an interest in children, and the fertilities of Sawyer, Kate, and Jack have been duly, if subtly, noted in their flashbacks.

There are so many holes in the theory, though, and I can't tell if it's because it's not true, or not completely true, or if the writers are just using their creative license to do things differently. i.e, why would they put Kate under such duress if they wanted her to bear children? I guess I can see the stressful conditions causing her and Sawyer to bond, and perhaps once they got her to conceive they would give her a plush pad to incubate. :)

And, how do we explain why Pickett wanted to kill Sawyer so badly? Maybe he wanted to get rid of their chances of conceiving, because he'd know that any offspring would constantly remind him of Colleen's death.

THe more I think "NAAAAHH that's not it..." the more I think, "WEEEELLL could be!!" I really don't want it to be about "fertility, cloning, Gentics" etc. because it seems so "done". Kate pregnant - I don't know... But then again, Kate pregnant with Sawyer's baby?!? (LUCKY GIRL!)

yeah, and why put her in the lovely dress and make her get changed in front of Sawyer. Also remenber the nursery they had set up for claire before Aaron was born. Maybe their plan is to have Kate in there next. Also when they were threatening to kill Sawyer they were told to say whatever they had to each other before they did. Therefore I beleive it was a ploy to get the deed done ASAP!!

Also, The Others probably observed some of Kate/Sawyer's interaction through the cameras in the hatch, and they believed that bringing those two together might make Jack more likely to jump ship.

A few thoughts too if I may ...
This whole mini-season has had me bamboozled from start to finish (although I've enjoyed it plenty!).

The most obvious reason for bringing Kate, Sawyer and Jack to the Others' camp was surely because of the media hype which was surrounding Skate v Jate at the time, and now the love triangle is resolved (for now anyway - this is LOST after all!). That seems to me the transparent reason for this otherwise strange plot device.

First of all, how could the Others have known that there was a love triangle in the offing anyway? Henry/Ben was locked up in the hatch and Michael was given the names of J/K/S and Hurley by Ms Klugh, independently. So, Henry/Ben could not have offered his own observations when this list was compiled, (and I don't recall his witnessing too much Kate/Sawyer interaction during his confinement), and he did say to Locke that he was coming for HIM - no mention of Jack though, which is also strange, seeing as he knew at this point that Jack was very necessary for his potential survival.

And of course, there is the unanswered thorny question of how could Kate and particularly Sawyer persuade Jack to operate on Ben? Kate makes some sense of course. Jack is very fond of her and would fear for her welfare. But he has no love for Sawyer - and Sawyer is his main rival for Kate's affections. It would have been more sensible if the Others had kept Hurley as a victim to threaten Jack into action, and dispatched Sawyer back to the Losties with the news that Jack and Co. had been captured.

As for Jacob's list: it's obviously not the same list as Ms Klugh's list, by virtue of its omitting Jack. Was Ms Klugh's list pre-prepared before Michael's arrival, as a possible exchange for Walt? Or was it prompted by Ben's capture? This doesn't then match Ben's own claim to have come for 'Locke'. Although he might well have been lying of course.

Maybe Jacob's list was purely about who could literally SURVIVE out of the Losties. (Omitting Jack - maybe too powerful a character for the Others to cope with). While Ms Klugh's small list is either to ensure Jack operates on Ben (which seems unlikely in view of the odd choice of personnel involved here), or, which I see as more likely, it was part of a research programme, probably fertility-related. Juliet's presence cannot be a mere coincidence?

The problem with the fertility argument however is the conditions in which Sawyer and Kate are kept. Bear-cages are hardly ideal mating conditions. And Sawyer's ill-treatment in particular would hardly inspire his libido - the fact that Kate and Sawyer do actually have sex is almost IN SPITE of their prison environment, even though they have bonded even closer as a result of their incarceration.

First of all, how could the Others have known that there was a love triangle in the offing anyway?

There was presumably someone always watching them through the cameras in the hatch, and I'm sure they were able to pick up on the subtle glances between Kate/Jack and Kate/Sawyer, as well as offscreen conversations that we didn't see.

A more far-fetched addendum to the theory: maybe Walt and/or some of the other psychic captives possessed remote viewing powers, so they have been able to observe the Losties even when they aren't in the hatch? (i.e. Kate and Jack's steamy jungle kiss, at the end of WKD).

Well, remote viewing would be icky...

theres a connection between kate not being pregnant in her flashback and the fact that Juliette is a fertility doctor.

I have heard this theory before. Someone actually stated Kate could not have children and it was fact. But I don't understand...a false pregnancy test doesn't mean you are infertile.

Now if Juliet has done something to Kate BEFORE she went into Sawyer's cage...that would be interesting
100%
What I found strange about Picketts statement is even if Shephard wasn't on the list, why does that justify shooting Sawyer?


Thought i should reiterate that statement...if they went through all the trouble to get James Ford then why is his life so dispensable?
Perhaps Pickett hated something he knew about James before he met him...

...if they went through all the trouble to get James Ford then why is his life so dispensable?
Perhaps Pickett hated something he knew about James before he met him...

I thought that since the Others seem to have different opinions about how things should be run, maybe Pickett doesn't want the original plan involving Sawyer to follow thru. Looking thru the eyes of the fertility theory, maybe he doesn't want to have offspring from these castaways around, because it would remind him of what he lost in order to get them.

Or looking thru the eyes of the "double-faction" Othersville, maybe he just wants to spite whoever's side he isn't on.

'Course he did say, "This is for Colleen," right when he was getting ready to do the deed. Can we buy that it's just that simple?

I thought it was to make sure jack would do the opperation, but i dont really kknow...

Oops, my post above is a little confusing...

I meant it to be an explanation of why Pickett wanted to kill Sawyer, not why the Others wanted Kate and Sawyer in the first place.

Using them to get Jack to do the surgery seems right now to be the reason they were taken, but I want to think that there was something more to it.

remember when Jack, kate, hurley, sawyer and michael were heading to the others 'camp', sawyer fired a shot across the river and we assumed he killed one of them?? Was there anything else that i'm forgetting about that? I don't seem to recall that it has been mentioned since? Was Coleen shot by sun on the boat?

remember when Jack, kate, hurley, sawyer and michael were heading to the others 'camp', sawyer fired a shot across the river and we assumed he killed one of them?? Was there anything else that i'm forgetting about that? I don't seem to recall that it has been mentioned since?


I've been wondering about this as well, I'm surprised the others haven't brought this up with Sawyer.

Exactly, they have talked about Ethan and Goodwin, but no mention of who was shot at that time......

One possible explanation is that the person Sawyer shot does not belong to Ben's groups and is part of a possible third group of people.

One possible explanation is that the person Sawyer shot does not belong to Ben's groups and is part of a possible third group of people.

Yes because they've made no mention of this person being shot since Sawyer has been captive of the Others...

I think some people were thinking the person shot was Candle/Wickman from the orientation videos. If that's true then I think that means both Dharma (through the stations, food drops and maybe the Others) and Hanso (Videos, unknown man that was shot and maybe the Others again) have a current presence on the island

wouldn't that make candle like 70 or 80. I can't see a man that old running through the jungle like that.

one of the experiments by Hanso was on longevity (hence Joop is over 100 years old, far older than any normal Orangutan) so it's not inconceivable that he could be physicly fit at that age. There is also talk of Ben being a subject of the same experimentation.

Could it be as simple as the Others wanting the strongest of the bunch? To me it seems like simple logic.

You have a person that is in dire need of medical attention. The Losties have a doctor that can fix the problem.

How do you get the doctor..simple, challenge him.

How do you keep the doctor...threaten him.

With what...the people he cares about. He likes Kate and he likes Sawyer more than most of you give credit.

Bonus...Jack / Kate / Sawyer are the best the Losties have to offer. They are the strong ones..the defiant ones. They hold the group together and provide comfort and security.

So in one little plan of attack you land the very much needed doctor as well as the heart and sole of the Losties camp.

I don't buy all that furtlity crap and who says that Sawyer and Kate actually did what most think they did? We are speculating. If they did..so what, an act of passion.

The Others needed Kate to convince Jack to perform the operation if all else failed. The Others needed Sawyer to convince Kate to do what she needed to do.

This is a very simple tactic. basically the same one that the US government used on Sayid to find the explosives. They held Nadia as the leverage point. No different here, Kate is the leverage point.

Jack will not allow Kate to be hurt or killed and if he actually knew what Sawyer was going through it would be the same.

So the Others win....or so it seems...until Jack spoils everything.

Pickett is friends with Tom. We can assume that Tom told Pickett about the adventures on the boat. We know that Pickett knows about Sawyer when they did the "exchange". Pickett is very familiar with Sawyer. He hates Sawyer on many levels, not just because Colleen was shot by Sun.

I think the Others just played the tactical cards properly. The got the man that they needed and the hostages required to provide the needed leverage.

Just good decisions being made...nothing more. Ben's team (whoever that is) made the correct calls.

Could it be as simple as the Others wanting the strongest of the bunch? To me it seems like simple logic.

With what...the people he cares about. He likes Kate and he likes Sawyer more than most of you give credit.

Bonus...Jack / Kate / Sawyer are the best the Losties have to offer. They are the strong ones..the defiant ones. They hold the group together and provide comfort and security.

The Others needed Kate to convince Jack to perform the operation if all else failed. The Others needed Sawyer to convince Kate to do what she needed to do.

This is a very simple tactic. basically the same one that the US government used on Sayid to find the explosives. They held Nadia as the leverage point. No different here, Kate is the leverage point.



I agree that the Others knew somewhat about the Triangle and used Kate, Jack and Sawyer to get Jack to do the operation.

I also agree they underestimated Jack. It doesn't matter who it going to be killed - Sawyer, Kate, Michael...if Jack can save a life he will. He is a doctor. The Other MUST have known this! So again.....WHY DID THE OTHERS PICK THESE THREE?
Possibly they picked The Triangle for security.

But I don't agree they are the three "strongest" Lostees. In fact, this emotional triangle gives them another weakness.

Sayid, Locke, and Desmond (if they know about him) could easily be on the list of Strongest as well.

"Sayid, Locke, and Desmond (if they know about him) could easily be on the list of Strongest as well."

Both Locke and Desmond would fold like a newspaper if someone used mind games with them.

I don't know about Sayid anymore either...I don't think he is nearly as strong as most think. I think he has a lot of emotional baggage.

Sawyer and Jack would survive the best in a game of the minds I think. Poor old Eko would have done good here also.

"Sayid, Locke, and Desmond (if they know about him) could easily be on the list of Strongest as well."

Both Locke and Desmond would fold like a newspaper if someone used mind games with them.

I don't know about Sayid anymore either...I don't think he is nearly as strong as most think. I think he has a lot of emotional baggage.

Sawyer and Jack would survive the best in a game of the minds I think. Poor old Eko would have done good here also.

Eko would have done well.
But what would the Others take "the strongest" for? So no one could track their Alcatraz while they had them? So no one would be able to find them? And if they bring the brainiest in wouldn't they have a clearer idea of what is going on? I suppose that would work with the game theory.

In that case, they were stupid not to take Locke or Sayid. Locke's the best at tracking and Sayid has military training.

You take the strongest to demoralize the rest. Create unrest, create confusion, create leadership issues.

This is a general tactic.

Someone from the Losties now needs to step up to the plate and assume the role of leader. That person is not Locke...he is a lone wolf, so scratch him.

Who is left? Sayid

That is why you attack leadership.

Now Sayid needs to take the ball and run. Problem is they are now very shorthanded. Ana was strong and is gone. Eko was strong and is gone. Michael was a piece of crap but was strong..he is also gone. Charlie and Hurley can't lead themselves. The Losties could be in for a heap of hurt if the Others decided to attack.

Locke will try to save the world and will have success, poor old Sayid is left holding the ship together....I can't wait!

Sayid, Locke, and Desmond (if they know about him) could easily be on the list of Strongest as well.

I don't think I'd put Locke and Desmond in the "three strongest" categories. Desmond already proved he will cave under pressure, regarding Penny (and he seems to drink alot). Locke has also proved consistently that he's easily manipulated.

Sayid, on the other hand, IS a strong willed man. He's allowed to make a bad decision or two or misjudge a strategy. The man is human, afterall.
100%
You take the strongest to demoralize the rest. Create unrest, create confusion, create leadership issues.

This is a general tactic.

Someone from the Losties now needs to step up to the plate and assume the role of leader. That person is not Locke...he is a lone wolf, so scratch him.

Who is left? Sayid

That is why you attack leadership.

Now Sayid needs to take the ball and run. Problem is they are now very shorthanded. Ana was strong and is gone. Eko was strong and is gone. Michael was a piece of crap but was strong..he is also gone. Charlie and Hurley can't lead themselves. The Losties could be in for a heap of hurt if the Others decided to attack.

Those are really good points. Also, with leadership (imo), it's also about creating a sense of "safety" and trust among your people. What have your past actions conveyed to the other survivors? Can you be trusted? Do you believe what this person is telling you? Do you feel safe that they will protect you when danger arises? Will they put you first? You want to be able to look at your "leader" and know and feel that your best interests are being considered.

I'm not sure if anyone on the beach, at the moment, possess these abilities. Sayid is my choice, but he's also a bit of a loner. Locke? No. He will sacrifice someone for his "island beliefs," and he is also a loner. Desmond? No. Kate? She may be an option no one is looking at, but she does have a tendency to run.

It's going to be an interesting season come February.

I am so glad someone else has brought this up! :) The mysterious man that Sawyer shot has been the basis for my "more than one group pf others theory". That combined with the fact that Ben made mention of Ethan and Goodwins death but not the deaths of those that Ana and Eko killed when they were attacked on the beach.
100%
I've been wondering about this as well, I'm surprised the others haven't brought this up with Sawyer.

I'm still wondering but both Kate and Sawyer are Outlaws...