Did anyone notice that one of the slogans that flashed during the video montage that Carl was watching said "God loves you and he loves Jacob". Jacob = Patchy !

I think it said "as" not "and." That changes the meaning I think.

things in the brainwashing video that carl was watching included a note about God loves you like God loves Jacob, and also had a picture of who I think is Gerald Degroot doing some experiment. I remember this picture from one of the orientation videos I think. Anyone see anything else in the video?

Ok, again, I will complain about commercials every 5 minutes

you're right piceschick, it did say AS, and it does change the meaning. Hmm, who is jacob? I'm betting my golden retriever that it's NOT patchy

I also thought that was DeGroot in the very last frame seen in the 'clockwork orange' scene with Carl. Additionally, what stuck out for me was "We are the cause of our own suffering".

The first saying, as they were entering the room, will be the hardest to confirm.

Something about gardens, flowers, etc.

And as Jin told Hurley: Everything's going to change

Thank God for Tivo! I'll be going back over this episode!

I hated the commercials too, but the piano and the De Groots creeped me out.

Wow I can't wait to find out!

Nice catch on Jin saying the same statement as the video, we need some capss!

I can't wait to see screencaps of every image from that film!!

So I guess the big question is if that was Degroot, and Juliet says they are no longer Dharma, what the heck is going on???

things in the brainwashing video that carl was watching included a note about God loves you like God loves Jacob, and also had a picture of who I think is Gerald Degroot doing some experiment. I remember this picture from one of the orientation videos I think. Anyone see anything else in the video?

Ok, again, I will complain about commercials every 5 minutes


The Techies (All praise the Techies - PRAISE!) will need to squirral away for a while and "debrief" each other on that scene! I predict LOTS of pause and play will go on - freeze frames, etc. Just let me know when you folks get it done!!! I wait with LOST breath!!!

That scene reminded me of a documentary I once saw about the US Military and experiments that were conducted on Soldiers. Loud music, a hallucinogenic and subliminal pictures/phrases.

I LOVED when Sawyer was standing there Hypnotized!!! Hey!!! Hey!!1 Snap out of it!!! TOO FUNNY!!!
:biggrin:

And yes - too many commercials as usual... Wonder if we can get them hit by a bus...?

That was DeGroot in the final frame...

Some quotes/ images
"Plant a good seed and you will joyfully gather fruit" (flowers in background)

"Everything Changes" (coins through the ages switching to CDs...)

again...

"Everything Changes" ( what looks like and old stove ..then steam engine?...then architect's tool....then musical organs (could be a reference to changing human organs?)

then a sequence of dolls: mannequins... china dolls... buddha.... drawing of a face...

"We are the causes of our own suffering" with bugs in the background (reference to a virus?) then fish..

then what looks like an light bulb..... the moon... a nest... a glass eye (?)... speedometer..... inner workings of a watch.... a plate of pasta (or worms?)

"Think about your life" ... includes a quick shot of Hanso in the building...

bizaare stuff, but sure to be "pregnant" with meaning.. couldn't resist that..

Was it brainwashing or was it some sort of punishment?

It reminded me of U2's Zoo Tv Tour.

It seemed like conditioning, like Karl had been misbehaving and this was some kind of reeducation therapy to make him compliant again.

Did you see "God Loves You and He Loves Jacob" or something along those lines? It was a quick flash.

Seems pretty clear to me it was the "room" Walt was threatened with by Klugh in season 2... I'm sure other people have already thought of that though.

This gives the microanalysts something to look at, like the images in the smoke monster and the invisible map. :tongue1:

Once we see the images it will also be interesting to speculate why Sawyer was seemingly entranced while Alex and Kate were abel to shake it off and rescue Karl.

No one (PJ?!) has mentioned the baby doll imagery, as it appeared in other scenes: Charlie's dream of his butcher dad, bait in a trap of Danielle's.

.And as Jin told Hurley: Everything's going to change

Didn't Ben say something about everything changing right before he went into surgery as well?

I am certain that every. . .single. . .frame of that film is gonna be posted. So analysis can commence and continue until the end of time.

Oh, but time is ANOTHER thing we're gonna analyze ad nauseum, too, yeah? :71:



GOD
LOVES
YOU
LIKE
HE
LOVES
JACOB.


Why does that not make me feel better? :eek1:

No one (PJ?!) has mentioned the baby doll imagery, as it appeared in other scenes: Charlie's dream of his butcher dad, bait in a trap of Danielle's.

Sorry. :redface: I'm a little overwhelmed right now and not thinking too clearly. Yes, we've seen repeated images of some of these things in the Lostie's dreams and visions. Does it suggest that some of them may have undergone this type of conditioning at some point without remembering it? It will be easier to speculate with the screencaps but that was my initial thought when I saw the baby dolls.

The scene kind of reminded me of a scene in the 1st Lawnmower Man movie

I just pulled up my Tivo recording and the Jacob one read:

God loves you
as He
loved Jacob


I think the past tense usage there is pretty important.

I'm wondering if we'd get anything out of the audio if we slowed it down, sped it up, played it backwards.....

Once we see the images it will also be interesting to speculate why Sawyer was seemingly entranced while Alex and Kate were abel to shake it off and rescue Karl.

Perhaps Sawyer was only meant to show the entrancement of the videos? Otherwise it'll be interesting why he specifically was drawn in.

Sawyer's the reader of the group. Flash some text at him and he gets hypnotized.

Aldo was reading Stephen Hawking's A Brief History of Time.

Cardie

No one (PJ?!) has mentioned the baby doll imagery, as it appeared in other scenes: Charlie's dream of his butcher dad, bait in a trap of Danielle's.

Love the connections. I forgot about the baby doll with Charlie's butcher father.
100%
Sawyer's the reader of the group. Flash some text at him and he gets hypnotized.

Aldo was reading Stephen Hawking's A Brief History of Time.

Cardie

Case and point :)

Was it brainwashing or was it some sort of punishment?It definitely seemed like some sort of brainwashing to make him better conform... They had an IV in him which I'd guess had a sedative to make him more open to the treatment. Reminded me of Manchurian Candidate

Once we see the images it will also be interesting to speculate why Sawyer was seemingly entranced while Alex and Kate were abel to shake it off and rescue Karl.
Along with all the subliminal messages themselves, I think this observation is significant.
I don't know if it's a male/female thing or some other characteristic about the individuals that makes them more susceptible to being influenced by the "treatment". :39:

I also forgot to mention about the Jacob line (God loves you as he loved Jacob). It says in the Bible that God loved Jacob. After Jacob wrestles with an angel his name is changed to Yisrael (Israel) which literally means "struggles with God". Don't know if that adds anything but I thought I'd mention it. He represents mankind's struggle with faith.

Israel (Jacob) is the biblical father of the twelve tribes of Israel.

I am certain that every. . .single. . .frame of that film is gonna be posted. So analysis can commence and continue until the end of time.

Oh, but time is ANOTHER thing we're gonna analyze ad nauseum, too, yeah? :71:



GOD
LOVES
YOU
LIKE
HE
LOVES
JACOB.


Why does that not make me feel better? :eek1:

in the last episode before the season 3 break, one of the others says, we better hope that jacob doesn't find out about this.' who is jacob?

I'm just glad his eyelids weren't physically pulled back like in Clockwork. That's too creepy for me. The glasses were plenty weird though.

Was it just me or was there an image of spaghetti? heh.

I did notice Degroot right at the end there.

Sure, they might say they aren't a part of DHARMA anymore or whatnot, but we know in THP that Tom quoted Alvar Hanso, so.... there's still some connection, that's for sure.

Cool homage to A Clockwork Orange. What was with the funky psychidelic sunglasses though? Very 70s.

It's a method of torture, I think, to bombard someone's senses till their mind just can't take it anymore. Then a person can be questioned and they'll spill.

But brainwashing or torturing, what would make them want to do either to Karl? He's one of their own, right? They certainly have some derranged expariments set up.

I wonder what they are going to do with him now. Is he going to stay with them on the beach? It seems like a parallel seperation between Kate and Jack and Alex and Karl.

I don't understand what the goggles were for.

It creeped me out, but then I laughed because it reminded me of Zoolander. "Obey my dog!" "I'm a little girl, Derek!" "Kill the prime minister of Malasia!" Hahaha.

Biblically - Jacob was the father of Benjamin... a connection to Ben?

Do you think all Others had to view this film at some point? Nice music they had playing too, lol.. it was like an Others rave.

Thank God for Tivo! I'll be going back over this episode!

AMEN! I just rewatched the scene, the first sentence states, " Plant a good seed and you will joyfully gather fruit." HHHHHHHMMMMMMM??????:rolleyes:

Once we see the images it will also be interesting to speculate why Sawyer was seemingly entranced while Alex and Kate were abel to shake it off and rescue Karl.

I don't think Sawyer was sucked in. Remember, he is highly intellegent and has a nack for accurately recalling literature. He seemed to be absorbing it so he can try to use the info to decode some of the island's mysteries later on.:rolleyes:

AMEN! I just rewatched the scene, the first sentence states, " Plant a good seed and you will joyfully gather fruit." HHHHHHHMMMMMMM??????:rolleyes:

Sounds like a reference to fertility--be fruitful and mutliply. Wonder what is meant by "a good seed". Like good people?


I don't think Sawyer was sucked in. Remember, he is highly intellegent and has a nack for accurately recalling literature. He seemed to be absorbing it so he can try to use the info to decode some of the island's mysteries later on.:rolleyes:


Sorry. He was just mesmerized. I don't know about the "highly intelligent" thing either. I would say "reasonably intelligent".

did anyone else notice the shot of alvar handso standing in the window?

Once we see the images it will also be interesting to speculate why Sawyer was seemingly entranced while Alex and Kate were abel to shake it off and rescue Karl.

Maybe it was a "Male focused" conditioning video. Just a thought.

Love the connections. I forgot about the baby doll with Charlie's butcher father.


Also, all the dolls that Jack found after the crash near that wreckage in the jungle.

Maybe it was a "Male focused" conditioning video. Just a thought.

Nobody got the sense that Sawyer was familiar with the indoctrination video and that he was trying to recall where he'd seen it before?

oh, and I just noticed that when Karl was in the chair with the goggle/glasses on, his right eye (on our left) was crossing and closing somewhat. Notice on the beach, when Alex is told by Juliette that she can't leave, that her right eye seems a little crossed or twitchy. Not sure if it's just a coincidence or what, but maybe she was put through the same thing once.

Sorry. :redface: I'm a little overwhelmed right now and not thinking too clearly. Yes, we've seen repeated images of some of these things in the Lostie's dreams and visions. Does it suggest that some of them may have undergone this type of conditioning at some point without remembering it? It will be easier to speculate with the screencaps but that was my initial thought when I saw the baby dolls.

Yes it does seem like many things in that video have popped up in visions and dreams. Can't wait to see caps!!

I'm wondering if we'd get anything out of the audio if we slowed it down, sped it up, played it backwards.....

Will defintiely try and see what's there :smile:

Also, all the dolls that Jack found after the crash near that wreckage in the jungle.

Oh yeah, I forgot about those dolls.

Also, all the dolls that Jack found after the crash near that wreckage in the jungle.

Yeah, and why did Rousseau have so many baby doll toys to set traps with in the first place?!

Yeah, and why did Rousseau have so many baby doll toys to set traps with in the first place?!

I;m guessing she found them abandoned around the island. Remember how Locke found a toy truck in the polar bear cave? The toys might have been left behind by former islanders. Maybe infertility was a side effect of "the incident", such that at one time they had children on the island and now they don't.

Nobody got the sense that Sawyer was familiar with the indoctrination video and that he was trying to recall where he'd seen it before?

I didn't think that at the time, but now that you mention it, I think you can definitely take that reading of his reaction. I don't know if that's how we're MEANT to see it, though... but this is a very interesting thought. I definitely think it's significant that he actually seemed rather dazed by it himself, enough to focus on his moment of pause.

Nice music they had playing too, lol.. it was like an Others rave.

HA - I was thinking the same thing - I'm like they are making him bug out in the D&B room

I wonder what that was. That scene was pretty blood chilling. I wonder what that was all about. That was a pretty intense scene. The others and the Dharma initiative become creepier by the second. I wonder if this is how they make all their recruits join them.

I think this scene, coupled with Juliet's flashbacks and her Mitterlos contacts that it sheds more light on the fact that the dharma initiative is still going in some form or another...if Juliet says that she's been on the island for three years that would put her about 2001 of memory serves me which is around the year hanso went "missing" and mittlewerk took over? I'm rambling but maybe that will get people thinking about the possibility that the numbers and the Valenzetti Equation are going to figure prominently in this season, hence the number 23 on the door...maybe it was an easter egg or maybe it was a clue as to what value this room tried to manipulate. WOW! i just woke up from that daydream I was in...what do you guys think...

I had a chance to go back over this scene, both in regular speed and frame by frame in specific sections and I noticed 2 things.

1. There were two projectors on at the same time. One was in the back of the room, over Sawyers head projecting the image onto the screen. The other was in the front of the room, under the screen, projecting the image back up onto everybody in the room. I'm not sure if it was just for dramatic effect, or something else...

2. Going frame by frame through the later part of the video, where it starts to split up and refract into different images (right around the time where Saywer seems to get really into it) There are pictures of faces in there. My recording isn't HD, but I'm sure that somebody will be able to get a clear shot of who it is. It looks female to me though. This makes me think that the person who said that this may be a Male oriented video might have been onto something.

I2. Going frame by frame through the later part of the video, where it starts to split up and refract into different images (right around the time where Saywer seems to get really into it) There are pictures of faces in there. My recording isn't HD, but I'm sure that somebody will be able to get a clear shot of who it is. It looks female to me though. This makes me think that the person who said that this may be a Male oriented video might have been onto something. I went frame by frame almost immediately too... Noticed the face when Sawyer starts to help Karl. On the first time around it looked like Jesus, but in slo-mo it's actually DeGroot. He shows up on screen too, so I'm wondering if both projectors are just showing the same film.

hey guys just want to chime in and say loved the scene, as u can see by my new avarter. mabey what was really in the video was what Karl saw through the lenses with the drugs

also, do you think this is what walt ment by when he said he was made to take tests???

Biblically - Jacob was the father of Benjamin... a connection to Ben?

I think it is trying to show that it is someone above Ben (like a father to a son). I don't think it's Patchy...maybe someone we know...hmm...

did anyone else notice the shot of alvar handso standing in the window?

Yes!!!!! Crazy huh? What effect could his photo have on the person being brainwashed?

Yes!!!!! Crazy huh? What effect could his photo have on the person being brainwashed?
I think was for our part of the brainwashing!:)

Actually, I think this may refer to the Biblical story found in Genesis of Jacob and his TWIN Esau. I don't remember the exact quote, but I think it's something like "Jacob have I loved, and Esau I have hated."

(By the way, Jacob grew up to marry Rachel, the name of Juliet's sister.)

Once we see the images it will also be interesting to speculate why Sawyer was seemingly entranced while Alex and Kate were abel to shake it off and rescue Karl.

I'm speculating that possibly both Alex and Kate have been subjected to the film before maybe? Alex could've easily seen it in the past, while Kate did have those 2 weeks or whatever with Benjamin... Maybe she had to watch that film...

So they're immune or unsurprised by the film, whether consciously or not..

Sawyer, never exposed, was mesmerized.

In episode 6, as "picket" walks out to kill sawyer he says. "shephard wasn't even on jacobs list" as in jack.

Jacob--of Jacob's list fame! (Remember Pickett's line about Jack not being on Jacob's list, back in "I Do"?)

I'm speculating that possibly both Alex and Kate have been subjected to the film before maybe? Alex could've easily seen it in the past,
Even if Alex hadn't actually watched the film she probably knows about it.

Maybe Michael watched it, could explain his strange appearance and actions upon returning? (Sorry if someone else mentioned I missed a couple pages.)

Kate was watching, too--until Alex's cry of despair over Karl snapped her out of it and into woman-helps-woman mode. James is probably used to (and immune to) crying women! :D

Screencaps:

http://www.4815162342.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=33746&sid=d3b0fd7341dca35abfa10e4a39cc7494

Thanks Amber :smile: what kind of coins of those behind the phrase Everything Changes?

The we are causes of our own suffering phrase reminded me a bit like one of the Four Noble Truths of Buddhism...also Dharma=Buddhism, too!

I'm really intrigued by the shots after the navigational instrument and before the dolls. It's a series of 5 shots, with what looks like a sailboat with the sun as a backdrop, taken from different perspectives. Makes me think of Desmond's sailboat..

All I know is that this was NOT the Montage I was hoping and waiting for!!! There wasn't even any tunes...

For those w/o a TiVo and a pause button...here's a nice link that shows all the images in the Clockwork Orange movie Carl was enjoying...(with no popcorn!!)...

http://lost.cubit.net/forum/index.php?action=gallery;sa=view;id=215

Alvar & DeGroot both made an appearance as well. Enjoy!

I just pulled up my Tivo recording and the Jacob one read:

God loves you
as He
loved Jacob


I think the past tense usage there is pretty important.

Yes, I think it is a reference to the Bible, and possibly to the book Jacob Have I Loved. Again, the latter is juvenile literature, but in both cases it is a reference to twins and sibling rivalry. Interestingly, the book is set on an island during WWII. In the book one twin is clearly favored by her family and most everyone else, while the other feels mostly ignored. The grandmother clearly favors one and not the other, and cruelly quotes the Bible to the unloved twin, "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." The grandmother was intimating that God loved Jacob and hated Esau.

That scene totally reminded me of A Clockwork Orange. Not one of my favorite films, rather disturbing. I expected his eyes to be pinned open when they showed Carl (Karl? sorry) I was relieved when he had those freaky goggles on!

The same room that they threatened Walt with? Seems probable. I was freaked yet excited, had been waiting for that one for awhile.

Now why did Karl need the goggles and how did that change what he was viewing?

50 things i noticed in the video: (obviously there's much more but these are just 50 or so I could pick out)

1. "plant a good seed and you will joyfully gather fruit."
2. rectangles, squares
3. roman coins
4. "everything changes"
5. 1921 coin "pluribus unum" "everything changes"
6. compact discs?
7. a stove?
8. coal burning stove?? w/wheel thing
9. a metal protractor
10. piano to keyboard to synthesizer
11. round things and sailboats under moon
12. fireworks?
13. can't tell (in little boxes)
14. 4 or 5 different dolls eyes
15. buddha
16. weeping asian eyes painting
17. "... joyfully gather fruit."
18. rectangles
19. the moon
20. an insect of some kind... beatle?
21. "we are the cause of our own suffering"
22. insect dies, one eats the other??
23. fish
24. toothpaste? some type of cream coming out of a tube into round mound
25. moon
26. bird's nest
27. round glass ball; blue... glass eyeball w/iris?
28. speedometer - o mph
29. gears
30. linguine w/pesto
31. "god loves you as he loved jacob" walking down carpeted stairs
32. rectangles
33. warehouse with round steel things and boxes, swirly lines, ekg?
34. steel framework (for lights?)
35. pipes,
36. blue swirly lines
37. stones like in pathway or wall, blue squiggly lines
38. sort of wooden native carving? like 2 eyes, more squigglies
39. 2 white bars? man behind them off in background, squigglies
40. "think about"
41. faces come into frame; looks wooden native carving and smiling face mixed
42. stone carved face? comes into screen
43. images zoom in towards center rectangular patterns
44. black & white ying/yang like face
45. another sculpture, almost like a dog head?
46. "think about... your life"
47. man across the screen
48. fireworks
49. stars in universe?
50. man in goggles in a lab maybe?

http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=1251&pos=494

The caps are up at Lost-Media. Not for every pic but here's the one with Hanso
100%
50 things i noticed in the video: (obviously there's much more but these are just 50 or so I could pick out)

1. "plant a good seed and you will joyfully gather fruit."
2. rectangles, squares
3. roman coins
4. "everything changes" (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=1251&pos=466)
5. coin "pluribus unum" "everything changes" (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=1251&pos=4641921)
6. compact discs?
7. a stove?
8. coal burning stove?? w/wheel thing
9. a metal protractor
10. piano to keyboard to synthesizer
11. round things and sailboats under moon
12. fireworks?
13. can't tell (in little boxes) (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=1251&pos=467)
14. 4 or 5 different dolls eyes (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=1251&pos=470)another (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=1251&pos=471)
15. buddha
16. weeping asian eyes painting
17. "... joyfully gather fruit."
18. rectangles
19. the moon (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=1251&pos=484)
20. an insect of some kind... beatle?
21. "we are the causes of our own suffering" (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=1251&pos=481) #2 (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=1251&pos=482)
22. insect dies, one eats the other??
23. fish
24. toothpaste? some type of cream coming out of a tube into round mound
25. moon
26. bird's nest
27. round glass ball; blue... glass eyeball w/iris?
28. speedometer - o mph
29. gears (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=1251&pos=485)
30. linguine w/pesto
31. "god loves you as he loved jacob" walking down carpeted stairs
32. rectangles
33. warehouse with round steel things and boxes, swirly lines, ekg?
34. steel framework (for lights?)
35. pipes (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=1251&pos=493)
36. "blue swirly line
37. stones like in pathway or wall, blue squiggly lines
38. sort of wooden native carving? like 2 eyes, more squigglies
39. 2 white bars? man behind them off in background, squigglies (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=1251&pos=494)Hanso
40. "think about... " (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=1251&pos=496'] "think about"[/URL]
41. faces come into frame; looks wooden native carving and smiling face mixed
42. stone carved face? comes into screen
43. images zoom in towards center rectangular patterns
44. black & white ying/yang like face
45. another sculpture, almost like a dog head?
46.[URL="http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=1251&pos=496)your life (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=1251&pos=497)
47. man across the screen
48. fireworks (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=1251&pos=508)
49. stars in universe?
50.man in goggles in a lab maybe? (http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=1251&pos=509) Gerald DeGroot linking

The one after the empty birds nest is a Greek Evil Eye (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evil_eye)!

Looks like it's on a necklace or something. I have one just like it as a refrigerator magnet.

I'm really intrigued by the shots after the navigational instrument and before the dolls. It's a series of 5 shots, with what looks like a sailboat with the sun as a backdrop, taken from different perspectives. Makes me think of Desmond's sailboat..

I noticed the sailboat too. I thought of the boat that Kate and Sawyer sailed off on though.

Does anyone have any theories on why exactly Carl was being forced (I assume he was forced) to watch this video? Do you think all of the Others have seen it? Was it specifically for Carl? Have Kate, Sawyer, and/or Jack seen it and they just don't remember? The whole thing is so confusing! Any thoughts?

Now why did Karl need the goggles and how did that change what he was viewing?Pen, at first I thought the goggles sort of magnified what he was seeing. Mainly since Karl's eyes are magnified. But then your comment made me wonder if there are any subliminal messages in the video we can't see. You know, how there are those stories about how consumers are flashed a nanosecond of something during commercials and so you don't even see it....but then that particular idea that flashed by is suddenly in your unconscious? You see it in movies, read it in books. The brainwashing was so obvious in the flashing of that video...there could also be something hidden....not so obvious.

Now why did Karl need the goggles and how did that change what he was viewing?

Also, the goggles being blue reminded me of the cheesy 3D glasses that you have to wear to see "3D" movies. Lots of times those movies have scenes or pictures like the one in Karl's film with the multiple squares with sailboats (?) where unless you have the 3D glasses on the image doesn't really make sense to you.

Pen, at first I thought the goggles sort of magnified what he was seeing. Mainly since Karl's eyes are magnified. But then your comment made me wonder if there are any subliminal messages in the video we can't see. You know, how there are those stories about how consumers are flashed a nanosecond of something during commercials and so you don't even see it....but then that particular idea that flashed by is suddenly in your unconscious? You see it in movies, read it in books. The brainwashing was so obvious in the flashing of that video...there could also be something hidden....not so obvious.

I think that's exactly right. There's something going on inside the goggles.

The one after the empty birds nest is a Greek Evil Eye (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evil_eye)!

Looks like it's on a necklace or something. I have one just like it as a refrigerator magnet.

and not entirely unlike the Oceanic logo

also the shot of the pipes [just after God loves you...] with the squiggly line through it made me think of the broken helix thingy from Heroes.. a nod perhaps?

The scene as a whole reminded me of the Parallax View
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2jz_VTC3jxg

The "seed" line is from the Dhammapada

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhammapada

The Dhammapada (Pāli (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C4%81li) धम्मपद, translates as Path of the Dharma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharma). Also Prakrit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prakrit) Dhamapada, Sanskrit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskrit) Dharmapada) is a Buddhist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism) scripture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scripture), containing 423 verses (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verse) in 26 categories. According to tradition, these are answers to questions put to the Buddha (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gautama_Buddha) on various occasions, most of which deal with ethics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethics). A fifth century (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_century) commentary by Buddhaghosa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhaghosa) includes 305 stories which give context to the verses. Edit: I know the "jacob" line refers to the character we have heard about but it also to me has biblical connotations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob

Especially this:

Jacob is the only person in Old Testament (Jewish) Scripture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scripture) whom God said He "loved". (Malachi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Malachi) 1:2–3, "...I loved Jacob, and I hated Esau (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esau)...",

and not entirely unlike the Oceanic logo


Ah! Very true, very true! Funny how on the Evil Eye wikipedia page it shows a picture of the turkish airliner with the blue eye logo on the tail. creeeepppy!

Does anyone have any theories on why exactly Carl was being forced (I assume he was forced) to watch this video? Do you think all of the Others have seen it? Was it specifically for Carl? Have Kate, Sawyer, and/or Jack seen it and they just don't remember? The whole thing is so confusing! Any thoughts?

My take on this: drawing parallels to Clockwork Orange - in that book/film, the video was used to correct young criminals. So, what if Dharma was once very busy trying to produce a perfect human race, brought in a bunch of children to the island so they can be separated from the 'evil' world (hence dolls scattered throughout). Karl is one of those kids grown up and he is the rebellious one who wouldn't fit in so they have to use the video on him.
Further along - the biblical Jacob was one of Israel's patriarchs, and the most fertile one at that, he had 12 sons from whom the 12 tribes originated. Before Jacob, Abraham had a hard time producing even one son! So seeing how the bringing-children-in experiment failed, the 'New Dharma' (=Mittelos) is taking a different route going through fertility experiments and having children born ON the island. That's why they needed Juliet on the island and were so interested in Claire's baby. It's a fertility cult!
The X-rays of the womb were those of a woman on the island? What's her name, Pickett's dead wife's maybe? The island's magnetic anomaly or whatever causes premature aging so they wanted Juliet to fix that.

Maybe Hurley and even possibly Charlie were shown this before but they don't remember? Maybe that's why Hurley dreamt about Jin saying "Everything changes" and Charlie about dolls and pianos...

i'm really curious about the white squiggly lines that where superimposed on parts of the film - kinda looked like editing marks - but seemd a lot more freeform. anyone seen these shapes or squiggels before? in the show?

Okay, I know everyone's freaking out over the images in the "brainwashing" scene, but if this really is akin to A Clockwork Orange, then we must also take the music into consideration. After all, Alex (from Clockwork) was not only being trained to feel sick upon viewing images of violence and sex, but also whenever he would hear his favorite composer, Beethoven.

While it's true the Lost version of this scene doesn't have to imply everything that its inspiration did, I couldn't help but wonder about the music. At first, I was confused that Lost had started using a new means of scoring action scenes! XD Then, I realized it was music actually coming from the room they were headed towards, but honestly, why that music? Sure, it was nice and loud to block out any possibly interference, and it definitely has a frenetic and disorienting feel to it, but perhaps there is a larger purpose behind it?

Okay, I know everyone's freaking out over the images in the "brainwashing" scene, but if this really is akin to A Clockwork Orange, then we must also take the music into consideration. After all, Alex (from Clockwork) was not only being trained to feel sick upon viewing images of violence and sex, but also whenever he would hear his favorite composer, Beethoven.

While it's true the Lost version of this scene doesn't have to imply everything that its inspiration did, I couldn't help but wonder about the music. At first, I was confused that Lost had started using a new means of scoring action scenes! XD Then, I realized it was music actually coming from the room they were headed towards, but honestly, why that music? Sure, it was nice and loud to block out any possibly interference, and it definitely has a frenetic and disorienting feel to it, but perhaps there is a larger purpose behind it?Could be. Like I said before...subliminal messages. Anyone ever listen to a sublimal tape to quit smoking or lose weight? Same sort of thing, perhaps?

i'm really curious about the white squiggly lines that where superimposed on parts of the film - kinda looked like editing marks - but seemd a lot more freeform. anyone seen these shapes or squiggels before? in the show?

I've seen them before, but not on the show. It was on the Hanso site, and it appeared on the same photo of Alvar. If I remember it well, those lines appear on the photo when Persephone starts asking you stuff... It's significance, I don't know...

Now why did Karl need the goggles and how did that change what he was viewing?

To me, the glasses seemed to have lights all along the inside of the frame around the eyes. They looked to be shining right into Karl's eyes, perhaps in order for him to keep his eyes open? That way he can't stop looking at the film, while being kept hydrated and nourished via the I.V. and completely strapped down.

I also noticed that, once again, there seems to be alot of emphasis on 'eyes.' The greek evil eye thingy, the dolls' eyes, the fish eyes... What's up with the eyes??

Screencaps:

http://www.4815162342.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=33746&sid=d3b0fd7341dca35abfa10e4a39cc7494

Thanks. I also noticed the focus on the eyes in most images.

Now why did Karl need the goggles and how did that change what he was viewing?

I just thought they were for magnification but he could have been seeing other images as well.

The one after the empty birds nest is a Greek Evil Eye (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evil_eye)!

Looks like it's on a necklace or something. I have one just like it as a refrigerator magnet.

More eyes!

Maybe Hurley and even possibly Charlie were shown this before but they don't remember? Maybe that's why Hurley dreamt about Jin saying "Everything changes" and Charlie about dolls and pianos...

I noticed the baby doll connection. I like the theory that many of the Losties may have been subjected to this at some point when they were unaware. As an in flight movie before the crash? Immediately after the crash and before they awoke? Remember Mittelos = Lost Time. If the Losties are missing time then anything could have happened during it and the images they see in their dreams could be subconscious memories of the event.

I also noticed that, once again, there seems to be alot of emphasis on 'eyes.' The greek evil eye thingy, the dolls' eyes, the fish eyes... What's up with the eyes??

Eyes are the windows to the soul. If they are looking to change a persons "perspective" or to find out if a person is good or bad, the way to get to their essence is through the eyes, ie, through visual images. Think television. We are the true test subjects. We are judging everyone on the show based on what we see, and through them we seek to answer questions about ourselves. "Find yourself" is one of this year's themes. It doesn't matter who we were, only who we are.

When Sawyer was staring at the video I got the feeling that it seemed familiar to him. To me it looked like it triggered a memory of seeing it or something like before.

Perhaps when they were first taken? Or even before they got ther?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEA6UKssdtg

I think the music is hiding a hidden audio track that maybe Karl can only hear. Did he have any headphones on? Also, I noticed a needle in his arm...most likely a sedative I assume but any thoughts? I found the excess noise similar to when Mr. Eko listened to the psychics tape and the loud noises masked the whispers.

Sorry. :redface: I'm a little overwhelmed right now and not thinking too clearly. Yes, we've seen repeated images of some of these things in the Lostie's dreams and visions. Does it suggest that some of them may have undergone this type of conditioning at some point without remembering it? It will be easier to speculate with the screencaps but that was my initial thought when I saw the baby dolls.

I'm still working on the whole cloning thing...events in the past few episodes tend to argue against the original thought that the whole experiment was about cloning. But I still like the theory that these peoples' "flashbacks" may have been implanted memories, to give them a sense of a previous life (and as part of the whole experiment). The "smoke" that Eko saw may have been some kind of leaked implanting stuff...And the lines from the first few episodes of season one--Claire's "Has anybody seen a hairbrush? That's weird, right?" and Sayid's voicing of the thought we all had: "We survived a plane crash with barely a scratch."

But then Ben said there may have been survivors when they saw the plane break up over their village, so maybe that disproves it.

"Plant a good seed and you will joyfully gather fruit." HHHHHHHMMMMMMM??????:rolleyes:

For what it's worth, that phrase is taken from the Dhammapada. The Dhammapada consists of 423 verses in Pali uttered by the Buddha on some 305 occasions for the benefit of a wide range of human beings. These sayings were selected and compiled into one book as being worthy of special note on account of their beauty and relevance for moulding the lives of future generations of Buddhists. They are divided into 26 chapters and the stanzas are arranged according to subject matter.

I think the music is hiding a hidden audio track that maybe Karl can only hear. Did he have any headphones on? Also, I noticed a needle in his arm...most likely a sedative I assume but any thoughts? I found the excess noise similar to when Mr. Eko listened to the psychics tape and the loud noises masked the whispers.

I don't know...it seems pretty clear that Kate has to yell above the music for Sawyer to hear her, and when they first walk in Kate puts a hand to one ear, as if to block out sound.

The "sedative" probably is a hallucinogenic, such as those used by the military in the previoiusly-mentioned experiments.
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For what it's worth, that phrase is taken from the Dhammapada. The Dhammapada consists of 423 verses in Pali uttered by the Buddha on some 305 occasions for the benefit of a wide range of human beings. These sayings were selected and compiled into one book as being worthy of special note on account of their beauty and relevance for moulding the lives of future generations of Buddhists. They are divided into 26 chapters and the stanzas are arranged according to subject matter.

Great addition, Showboat. Goes along with the whole idea in this thread about reconditioning Karl.

Jacob is the only person in Old Testament (Jewish) Scripture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scripture) whom God said He "loved". (Malachi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Malachi) 1:2–3, "...I loved Jacob, and I hated Esau (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esau)...", also quoted in Romans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_to_the_Romans)).

I;m guessing she found them abandoned around the island. Remember how Locke found a toy truck in the polar bear cave? The toys might have been left behind by former islanders. Maybe infertility was a side effect of "the incident", such that at one time they had children on the island and now they don't.

I was thinking of something like that. The guy from Mittelos was very determined to get a fertility doctor to join their project.

Great addition, Showboat. Goes along with the whole idea in this thread about reconditioning Karl.

Not to mention the recurring references to Buddhism (i.e. Dharma, Namaste, etc).

IMOHO:
The glasses to keep the subject’s eyes open, a high-tech twist on the Clockwork Orange’s pins (no eye drops required).
The music is to keep him awake and disoriented. I read this is done in psychological warfare and torture all the time.
The IV may be drugs or could just be nourishment to keep the subject hydrated and feed without interruption of his treatment (or both).
While this is obviously a homage to Clockwork Orange, I was also reminded of a scene in Red Dawn of the prison camp video where the one kid’s father was being held.

In the Bible Jacob sees a ladder that goes from earth to heaven (hence the toy, Jacobs Ladder).
The following was from wikipedia.org, and I thought it was really relevant, esp. if the Others are trying to build a master race and/or a utopian community:

And Jacob left Beersheeba and went toward Haran. And he came to the place and stayed there that night, because the sun had set. Taking one of the stones of the place, he put it under his head and lay down in that place to sleep. And he dreamed that there was a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven; and behold, the angels of God were ascending and descending on it! And behold, the Lord stood above it [or "beside him"] and said, "I am the LORD, the God of Abraham your father and the God of Isaac, the land on which you lie I will give to you and to your descendants; and your descendants shall be like the dust of the earth, and you shall spread abroad to the west and to the east and to the north and to the south; and by you and your descendants shall all the families of the earth bless themselves. Behold, I am with you and will keep you wherever you go, and will bring you back to this land; for I will not leave you until I have done that of which I have spoken to you." Then Jacob awoke from his sleep and said, "Surely the LORD is in this place; and I did not know it." And he was afraid, and said, "How awesome is this place! This is none other than the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven."

anyone else think this was staged just to make Sawyer and Kate take Karl with them? Is Karl the new spy in the Losties camp?

anyone else think this was staged just to make Sawyer and Kate take Karl with them? Is Karl the new spy in the Losties camp?


I have been thinking the same thing this whole time. I mean Ben is a pretty smart guy. Maybe he knew that Alex would try to help K/S escape and take her tortured bf with them. I mean, Karl and Sawyer were already aquainted in the cages, that might be a set up, too. It will be interesting to watch how this plays out and if Karl is helping the losties or hurting them.

For Carl to be a "plant", would Alex have to be involved, or just fooled? Would Juliet have to be involved, or did she just happen to be there and kill Pickett so Carl could escape? Would the Others have to have known that Jack would use Ben's surgery to demand Kate & Sawyer's release, AND then have Alex waiting to rescue K&S?

This just seems too leave too many things to chance (like the plane crash) for it to have been planned.


Assuming Carl is not now going to be a spy:

To me the video/music was obviously an attempt to recondition Carl. We have already seen Carl in a cage where we assume he was put for punishment (again, assuming it is not a set-up). This was (maybe) showing us that Carl is a bad apple who needs "help" (reconditioning).

It was also obvious to me that there would be subliminal messags in the video. I would also guess that the majority of these messages can not be seen on any screen cap.

I also thought it would make sense if the music playing also contained these subliminal messages. I also wondered if this music might not be our infamous Geronimo Jackson? Wouldn't that add a nice twist?

For Carl to be a "plant", would Alex have to be involved, or just fooled? Would Juliet have to be involved, or did she just happen to be there and kill Pickett so Carl could escape? Would the Others have to have known that Jack would use Ben's surgery to demand Kate & Sawyer's release, AND then have Alex waiting to rescue K&S?
Pickett had become a loose cannon since Colleen's death, but he always seemed a little nuts IMHO.

Perhaps he had become too unpredictable for Ben & Juliet (and without Colleen, his "services" were no longer needed), so this was a good opportunity to eliminate him.

Ben is a very smart man. He let himself be captured by Rousseau, who would give him up to the Losties. He infiltrated their camp and then escaped. He planned all that. We already know he is a con man, because he conned Sawyer to earn his respect. I think he could plant Carl in with Sawyer, get him to try to escape, con Alex into helping Kate and Sawyer all to get Carl into their camp. I really don't think it is much of a stretch.

This is why Lost is so good. You never know what to take at face value and what's a conspiracy. :cool:

Personally, I don't believe that the whole Karl thing was staged. I think that Alex needed some help to free him, so when she found Kate and Sawyer it was a perfect opportunity for her to kill two birds with one stone. You help me, I help you.

And to the utopian society/perfect race piece... remember Locke's mother said that he had no father and he was immaculately concieved. Then we're introduced to Locke's "father". C'mon... would any real father treat their son like that? Maybe he is part of the whole Hanso/Dharma corp and Locke's mom is/was a test patient that needed the money and the real truth was what she told him in the beginning.

Also some parallels between the text in the video and the Latin phrases on the blast door map:

"Everything changes" = "It's a bad plan that can't be changed"

"We are the cause of our own suffering" = "I think, therefore I suffer"

Was Kelvin "conditioned" in this room?

I would love to see SKATE ask Karl what they were doing to him. The only problem I foresee with that, is that Karl didn't look like he'd slept in quite a while (and even mentions that it's time to go to sleep). What an oportune time for him to not be conscious to answer any questions about who he is and what the heck they were doing to him...

Carl was pretty much being subjected to some form of behavior modification. It may have been aversion therapy (this is what was used in A Clockwork Orange).

In A Clockwork Orange, the main character, Alex, is a rapist and murderer. He is sent to prison and undergoes a behavior modification experiment to "cure" him. This involves him being strapped down with his eyes forced open so he can watch violent movies or various acts of violence. He is also being drugged with a painful substance. Meanwhile, Beethoven's music (which was Alex's stimulus to commit extremely violent acts) is being played while he watches these scenes so he comes to associate Beethoven's music with pain, as well as violence with pain.

Since we do not know what was in Carl's IV it could have been a few different things ranging from simple nourishment to a drug that causes painful sensations.

If Carl was in any form of pain then what he was undergoing was Aversion Therapy. However, I personally do not believe he was undergoing this type of therapy because of the images the video contained did not seem of the Aversion type.

I think Carl was being forced to watch a film that basically stands for DHARMA's ideas. The video contained opinionated messages about fertility ("plant a good seed..."), evolution/industrialization/technology ("everything changes"), pain and misery ("we are the cause of our own suffering"), faith ("God loves you as He loved Jacob"). These messages accompanied by their images produce a certain perspective - probably DHARMA's perspective about life. The last message we're shown is "Think about your life". To me, Carl was being reminded of the groups message. If successful, it could make him behave and follow the group like a zombie. He'd no longer be a "rebel".

The music being played also seemed to contain some spoken messages - I couldn't make out what it was saying. I'm sure there is also some subliminal stuff in both the video and music which would aid in the behavior modification, but since they are subliminal it will either be impossible to ever see/hear, or very difficult to see/hear.


Remember, Behavior Modification is a part of psychology and psychologists Watson and Skinner were probably the biggest proponents of it. I believe Watson and/or Skinner were mentioned in the DHARMA Initiative orientation video. Since DHARMA seem to be fans of either Skinner and/or Watson, then it would be safe to say that they would use this form of behavior modification on people.

you're right piceschick, it did say AS, and it does change the meaning. Hmm, who is jacob? I'm betting my golden retriever that it's NOT patchy


I agree no way its patchy

http://www.parachutingtrees.co.uk/lost/se03ep07/brainwash_montage.jpg


^ I put together this for your reference. Can anyone help fill in the "?" gaps?

Carl was pretty much being subjected to some form of behavior modification. It may have been aversion therapy (this is what was used in A Clockwork Orange).

In A Clockwork Orange, the main character, Alex, is a rapist and murderer. He is sent to prison and undergoes a behavior modification experiment to "cure" him. This involves him being strapped down with his eyes forced open so he can watch violent movies or various acts of violence. He is also being drugged with a painful substance. Meanwhile, Beethoven's music (which was Alex's stimulus to commit extremely violent acts) is being played while he watches these scenes so he comes to associate Beethoven's music with pain, as well as violence with pain. .

Mabey this is why Juliet crys when she hears "Downtown".....??
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http://www.parachutingtrees.co.uk/lost/se03ep07/brainwash_montage.jpg


^ I put together this for your reference. Can anyone help fill in the "?" gaps?
? to the left of god loves one looks like a plate of pasta... ? next to the fish looks like a spinning record
the ? oven close up looks like a steam pipe mabey...ovens usualy dont have those vale hangles on them
the cartoon spiral thing looks like the milky way galaxy and a cartoon flower...

For what it's worth, that phrase is taken from the Dhammapada. The Dhammapada consists of 423 verses in Pali uttered by the Buddha on some 305 occasions for the benefit of a wide range of human beings. These sayings were selected and compiled into one book as being worthy of special note on account of their beauty and relevance for moulding the lives of future generations of Buddhists. They are divided into 26 chapters and the stanzas are arranged according to subject matter.

Yup.I noticed that too! :biggrin: I posted a link to the Wikipedia entry on page 9 of this thread to it where it has some extra detail.

The "seed" line is from the Dhammapada

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhammapada

Quote:
The Dhammapada ( Pāli (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C4%81li) धम्मपद, translates as Path of the Dharma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharma). Also Prakrit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prakrit) Dhamapada, Sanskrit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskrit) Dharmapada) is a Buddhist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism) scripture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scripture), containing 423 verses (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verse) in 26 categories. According to tradition, these are answers to questions put to the Buddha (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gautama_Buddha) on various occasions, most of which deal with ethics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethics). A fifth century (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_century) commentary by Buddhaghosa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhaghosa) includes 305 stories which give context to the verses.

http://www.parachutingtrees.co.uk/lost/se03ep07/brainwash_montage.jpg


^ I put together this for your reference. Can anyone help fill in the "?" gaps?

The one the you have marked "bomb" (after the empty nest) is actually a Greek Evil Eye (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evil_Eye). I think we mentioned it in this thread a few pages back, but the whole vid-yo seems to have "eyes" as a theme overall - and it was pointed out that the blue evil eye looks suspiciously like the Oceanic logo. The evil eye in the video has a hole drilled thru and what looks like a leather necklace or something. They are all over Greece, being sold as a tourist souvenier in all forms, which explains why I have one in my kitchen as a refrigerator magnet. :) To me the video one looks like an extreme close up, because the one that I own is about the size of a quarter.

Also, the image before the empty nest, after the dead fish, looks to me like a lightbulb with the picture taken from above. Not one of the regular bulb lightbulbs, but one of those new high-efficiency (the real name escapes me) lightbulbs. Someone will know what I'm talking about. All I know is that I buy them from IKEA for cheap.

http://www.parachutingtrees.co.uk/lost/se03ep07/brainwash_montage.jpg


^ I put together this for your reference. Can anyone help fill in the "?" gaps?

I think those worms are tapeworms

I think those worms are tapeworms

Where you see worms dude?

those noodle looking things...tapeworms???? they are not noodles

...eta...btw...I would be a dudette not a dude ...

Hanso was in there as well

Woah MVM....tapeworms? Gotta watch that one again. ;)


Some things are being mentioned over and over in this thread. Yeah, the thread is long, lol. Thought I'd post links to 2 very informative posts in this thread.

youtube video: http://thefuselage.com/Threaded/showpost.php?p=1364390&postcount=100

and 50 things noticed in the video: http://thefuselage.com/Threaded/showpost.php?p=1363880&postcount=80

Brain Washing video? what video? there was no video:confused:

I think I'll go join the Others:eek2:

bye now

The image with the Jacob comment is Accending Stairs. Jacob's Ladder?

The picture right after the fish is one of the new energy saving light bulbs... they have a swiggle formation and the picture looks like it was taken straight over the bulb.

I think that the "Clockwork Orange" Video orientation must be on line some where. Youtube.com, Break.com, or someplace. Has anyone been able to find it in its entirety?

On the other hand, I find this new time slot @ PM to be horrible. I get up at 4:30-4:AM and can not stay up. The replay on ABC is not in HD and not the same on TV. Some need to tell ABC to get it together, ASAP
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http://www.parachutingtrees.co.uk/lost/se03ep07/brainwash_montage.jpg


^ I put together this for your reference. Can anyone help fill in the "?" gaps?
The ? mark looks like noodles in a dish , but I don't know the relevance
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Did any one notice the Hieroglyphics in the video as well?

Also it started to hypnotize Sawyer as well.

I also noticed the glasses that were worn by the boy in the chair, they were magnified and flanked with florescent lighting possible meant to keep him awake and focused. The volume kept him focused as well.
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Gotta watch that one again.
youtube video: http://thefuselage.com/Threaded/showpost.php?p=1364390&postcount=100

I meant a video of the Video, not from LOST's TV angle if you know what I mean.
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The other ? is the top view of a florescent light bulb that replaces an incandescent light.

I Noticed the scaffolding during the show and work with it daily by why this type of scaffolding as it is not so common?
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Also checl this out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKULTRA

That was DeGroot in the final frame...

Some quotes/ images
"Plant a good seed and you will joyfully gather fruit" (flowers in background)

"Everything Changes" (coins through the ages switching to CDs...)

again...

"Everything Changes" ( what looks like and old stove ..then steam engine?...then architect's tool....then musical organs (could be a reference to changing human organs?)

then a sequence of dolls: mannequins... china dolls... buddha.... drawing of a face...

"We are the causes of our own suffering" with bugs in the background (reference to a virus?) then fish..

then what looks like an light bulb..... the moon... a nest... a glass eye (?)... speedometer..... inner workings of a watch.... a plate of pasta (or worms?)

"Think about your life" ... includes a quick shot of Hanso in the building...

bizaare stuff, but sure to be "pregnant" with meaning.. couldn't resist that..

Interesting that Karl Popper, a philosopher who was influenced by Edmund Burke, wrote about three worlds, the physical, the mental, and the products of the human mind, and the capacity of science to change things. According to Popper, the abstract has an undeniable effect on the concrete, scientific conjectures and theories have an impact on the physical. Everything changes. He also talked about magnetic fields, human suffering and the role of children (Taking Children Seriously).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Popper

http://www.tannerlectures.utah.edu/lectures/popper80.pdf

I interpreted "we are the cause of our own suffering" to mean "you did this to yourself by defying me/us."

Some random thoughts: Perhaps Ben is "God" here. Is Karl a negative influence on Alex in Ben's eyes? That treatment room looked more like torture than it did like brainwashing. The magnified lenses of the glasses; being strapped to the chair with the IV; the insane level of noise and the speed of the images. Totally controlling the environment. <shudder>

This is my first time posting on this or any thread, but I found something that I thought was really cool.
We were watching lost on a 5.1 sound system and one or two of the channels of audio were missing, which most of the time was annoying. During the brainwashing scene however instead hearing all the noise and loud music all we heard was some electronic feedback, a few creepy sounds and what sounded like a backwards recording.. I logged on to see if anyone else heard it and had posted what was said and couldn't find anything (I didn’t know at the time we were hearing a different audio track then everyone else was)...So recorded it using my iPod recorder and reversed it. Turned out it was a backwords clue: It was a woman’s voice and she said "Only fools are enslaved by time and space" about 6 or 7 times....i have the audio files but don't know where to post them...any ways does anyone have a theory or explanation for this?

holy crap, jl...what a find! opens up the whole "time warp" theory. way to go!

Super Sweet discovery. For a first time poster, you swung for the fences. Killer find. I hope you can find a way to post it.

Seems pretty clear to me it was the "room" Walt was threatened with by Klugh in season 2... I'm sure other people have already thought of that though.

I'm really pretty shocked that this isn't being discussed more. I thought that when I got on to the fuse today, I'd see tons of topics on it. I practically cried out "The Room!" as soon as I saw Carl strapped to the chair.

http://www.parachutingtrees.co.uk/lost/se03ep07/brainwash_montage.jpg


^ I put together this for your reference. Can anyone help fill in the "?" gaps?

Thanks for the montage!
What you are labelling "bomb" is really a nazar, an amulet to protect from the "evil eye". See Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazar_(amulet))

EDIT: Saw somebody corrected that already. :-(

I do recognize one of the pics on the site http://www.parachutingtrees.co.uk/lost/se03ep07/brainwash_montage.jpg that was provided by Elbonio. On the fifth column down, second picture in is an "eye". I have this same thing as a magnet on my fridge. It was given to me by a Turkish coworker, for protection, and for second sight (or a third eye thing). She said they are very common there. I thought that image is cool and was wondering how the third eye fits in.

Once we see the images it will also be interesting to speculate why Sawyer was seemingly entranced while Alex and Kate were abel to shake it off and rescue Karl.Because men focus on what they can see right in front of them and act upon that, and women focus on the whole task at hand!:)

This is my first time posting on this or any thread, but I found something that I thought was really cool.
We were watching lost on a 5.1 sound system and one or two of the channels of audio were missing, which most of the time was annoying. During the brainwashing scene however instead hearing all the noise and loud music all we heard was some electronic feedback, a few creepy sounds and what sounded like a backwards recording.. I logged on to see if anyone else heard it and had posted what was said and couldn't find anything (I didn’t know at the time we were hearing a different audio track then everyone else was)...So recorded it using my iPod recorder and reversed it. Turned out it was a backwords clue: It was a woman’s voice and she said "Only fools are enslaved by time and space" about 6 or 7 times....i have the audio files but don't know where to post them...any ways does anyone have a theory or explanation for this?

Wow! Great work. Since this is your first post, I'm not sure if you're familiar with the Whispers & Other Hidden Audio thread: http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?p=1365969

I think they would be very interested to hear from you.

They could have just show Prince's halftime show from the other night as the brainwashing video.

I haven't seen this mentioned yet...

I kind of doubt it's relevant, but I am very curious what the text on the screen was during degroot's appearance on the raver video. Any thoughts? I have posted a few screen caps here (http://gtf.org/dan/lost/degroot/). Can we piece it together?

Interesting that Karl Popper, a philosopher who was influenced by Edmund Burke, wrote about three worlds, the physical, the mental, and the products of the human mind, and the capacity of science to change things. According to Popper, the abstract has an undeniable effect on the concrete, scientific conjectures and theories have an impact on the physical. Everything changes. He also talked about magnetic fields, human suffering and the role of children (Taking Children Seriously).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Popper

http://www.tannerlectures.utah.edu/lectures/popper80.pdf

Also interesting to do with the name Karl (Carl? Do we have a confirmation on how his name is spelled?) is Carl Jung (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carl_jung), who came up with the theory of a collective unconciousness,

"In contrast to the objective material world, the subjective realm of archetypes cannot be fully plumbed through quantitative modes of research. Instead it can be revealed more fully through an examination of the symbolic communications of the human psyche — in art (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art), dreams (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreams), religion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion), myth, and the themes of human relational/behavioral patterns. Devoting his life to the task of exploring and understanding the collective unconscious, Jung theorized that certain symbolic themes exist across all cultures, all epochs, and in every individual."

Symbols, deams and whatnot...

It's definitely KARL.

http://www.parachutingtrees.co.uk/lost/se03ep07/brainwash_montage.jpg


^ I put together this for your reference. Can anyone help fill in the "?" gaps?

In this picture there is a bowl of noodle like things...they look like tapeworms....

Woah MVM....tapeworms? Gotta watch that one again. ;)


Some things are being mentioned over and over in this thread. Yeah, the thread is long, lol. Thought I'd post links to 2 very informative posts in this thread.

youtube video: http://thefuselage.com/Threaded/showpost.php?p=1364390&postcount=100

and 50 things noticed in the video: http://thefuselage.com/Threaded/showpost.php?p=1363880&postcount=80


thanks for thelinks!!!

Thanks for the comments re: http://www.parachutingtrees.co.uk/lost/se03ep07/brainwash_montage.jpg


I also think the "bowl of noodles" looks like tapeworms but i couldnt be sure. There's a very distinctive black/white (dark/light?) theme going on there?


Also I will correct the "bomb" picture tomrrow when ive had a little less to drink :p

This is my first time posting on this or any thread, but I found something that I thought was really cool.
We were watching lost on a 5.1 sound system and one or two of the channels of audio were missing, which most of the time was annoying. During the brainwashing scene however instead hearing all the noise and loud music all we heard was some electronic feedback, a few creepy sounds and what sounded like a backwards recording.. I logged on to see if anyone else heard it and had posted what was said and couldn't find anything (I didn’t know at the time we were hearing a different audio track then everyone else was)...So recorded it using my iPod recorder and reversed it. Turned out it was a backwords clue: It was a woman’s voice and she said "Only fools are enslaved by time and space" about 6 or 7 times....i have the audio files but don't know where to post them...any ways does anyone have a theory or explanation for this?

<Tosses JungleLocke a Fish Bisket> Nice find, can you upload the sound clip?

Thanks for the comments re: http://www.parachutingtrees.co.uk/lost/se03ep07/brainwash_montage.jpg


I also think the "bowl of noodles" looks like tapeworms but i couldnt be sure. There's a very distinctive black/white (dark/light?) theme going on there?


Also I will correct the "bomb" picture tomrrow when ive had a little less to drink :p

Not to be gross or anything but if you take the tapeworms out from a small intestine that could explain the brown stuff...That was my thought when I first sw the pic last night and same thing today....if it is noodles...I may never eat them again after this...lol

sometimes a bowl of noodles is just a bowl of noodles ;)

The first ? looks like a lightbulb to me, in case anyone didn't see that...

I thought the movie that was shown in the barn reminded me of Clockwork Orange. I looked it up on Wikiapedia>

Burgess wrote in his later introduction, A Clockwork Orange Resucked, that a creature who can only perform good or evil is "a clockwork orange — meaning that he has the appearance of an organism lovely with colour and juice, but is in fact only a clockwork toy to be wound up by God or the Devil or the almighty state."
In his essay "Clockwork Oranges"Burgess asserts that "this title would be appropriate for a story about the application of Pavlovian or mechanical, laws to an organism which, like a fruit, was capable of colour and sweetness". This title alludes to the protagonist's negatively conditioned responses to feelings of evil which prevent the exercise of his free will.

Sounds very Darmha like.

Hey everyone, I didn't see this posted anywhere so I thought I would throw it out there...but I just sat and watched the whole Clockword Orange/brainwashing video frame-by-frame and kind of analyzed it so we can pick it apart :) What I saw and what you guys saw might be completely different, but I think I got most of them...here goes:

When Kate/Sawyer/Alex first enter we see:
"Plant a good seed and you will joyfully gather fruit"

This is followed by a kaleidescope of shapes and colors, and I wasn't able to discern anything other than the trippy pattern :)

Next we see "Everything Changes", and there are several images that show behind these words:

1.) A group of really old coins (Greek perhaps?)
2.) One single coin with "E Pluribus Unum" showed prominently (Latin translation is "From many, one" or "Out of many, one"

3.) A wood burning stove
4.) a compass, or calipers
5.) piano/keyboards

Then we get a kaleidescope again, and this one has some discernable images:
1.) A blue flame, like from a candle
2.) A sailboat with a setting sun as the backdrop

Next, we get a flurry of images of a woman who appears to be Asian, with emphasis on her eyes; followed by an Oriental/Asian statue that looks like a monk. We then get several more images of what looks to be Asian artwork.

The scene cuts to Karl for a moment, and then shows a full moon with a shadow pulling away from it.

Next is the quote "We are the causes of our own suffering" with beetle-like insects as the backdrop, then changes to orange/red fish with emphasis on the eyes again.

Next is what looks like a top-down view of those spiral-like light bulbs

Next is another shot of the full moon, followed by what looks like a tunnel made of hair or maybe grass? It clearly conveys the sense of a tunnel though.

Then we get what looks like a bowling ball with a hole blown through the middle of it. It looked like to me that a small curl of smoke was rising from the middle of the hole...

Next is a speedometer, then a quick shot of some gears, then a shot of what looks like a plate of noodles? (not sure on that one)

Then we get the quote "God loves you as He loved Jacob" against a back drop of what looks like big rolls of carpet

Then is a shot of what looks like a warehouse of sorts, with metal scaffolds and beams all through the ceiling. There is also a blue swiggly line that is wiggling all over the screen.

Then there is a pile of pipes with that same blue swiggly wiggling around the screen
Next, a bed or rocks
Then, a piece of symmetrical artwork (it looks like it has Asian influence)
Then there is an image of Alvar Hanso's picture, with him standing in a window, just like the one we saw on the Dharma website so long ago. That same blue squiggly is still moving around.

Then we see another kaleidescope of shapes/colors. (I wasn't able to discern anything)

The scene cuts back to Karl, and there is a reflection of what looks like DeGroot on the right side of Karl's head (the right side as we are looking at it)

Then, we get shots of fireworks exploding
And the last thing we get before they leave the room is a shot of looks like DeGroot in a lab. The picture appears to be the same one we saw in the first orientation video.

If I missed something, or someone saw different things please let me know! I think that next to Locke's hallucination with Boone in the airport, this was the trippiest scene so far. Let me know what you all think!

the clockwork orange thread......

http://thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=68561


eta...and sometimes it is just much more fun to say the noodles are hookworms...even though I think they really could be...lol

Lots of asian doll faces, african or south american masks......

This is my first time posting on this or any thread, but I found something that I thought was really cool.
We were watching lost on a 5.1 sound system and one or two of the channels of audio were missing, which most of the time was annoying. During the brainwashing scene however instead hearing all the noise and loud music all we heard was some electronic feedback, a few creepy sounds and what sounded like a backwards recording.. I logged on to see if anyone else heard it and had posted what was said and couldn't find anything (I didn’t know at the time we were hearing a different audio track then everyone else was)...So recorded it using my iPod recorder and reversed it. Turned out it was a backwords clue: It was a woman’s voice and she said "Only fools are enslaved by time and space" about 6 or 7 times....i have the audio files but don't know where to post them...any ways does anyone have a theory or explanation for this?

I hope someone has directed you to the Whispers thread I still have 2 more pages to read.

http://thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?p=1366228#post1366228
100%
Did anyone notice that one of the slogans that flashed during the video montage that Carl was watching said "God loves you and he loves Jacob". Jacob = Patchy !

http://thefuselage.com/Threaded/showpost.php?p=1363861&postcount=79

ThePhoenix, please list this in your 1st post The List of 50. Yhis way people will be able to find it easily

In the film that Karl was being forced to watch if you look carefully in the eyes of the dolls
I think you can see images of people.Some are easier to see than others.

Also in the image showing pipes ,on one pipe it looks like there is a face ,it is sideways.

You can see the pictures I'm talking about ,as well as the rest of the film stills here:
http://lost.cubit.net/forum/index.ph...sa=view;id=215

I also think those swirls going through the film would make some kind of word if it was viewed correctly.

Macainickle

"Plant a good seed and you will joyfully gather fruit"

Hey, wasn't Locke joyfully gathering fruit in his flashback at the weed growing place with his "family"?

Some guesses at what the images mean...

The mannequins could be a reference to making "copies" of people. The final shot in that sequence looks like a buddhist statue, perhaps to question the morality of such actions.

The "everything changes" transition from coins (monetary currency) to CDs (data or information as power / currency).

I also forgot to mention about the Jacob line (God loves you as he loved Jacob). It says in the Bible that God loved Jacob. After Jacob wrestles with an angel his name is changed to Yisrael (Israel) which literally means "struggles with God". Don't know if that adds anything but I thought I'd mention it. He represents mankind's struggle with faith.

Israel (Jacob) is the biblical father of the twelve tribes of Israel.

To tie into this theme, Rachel is the name of Juliet's sister. Rachel was one of Jacob's wives.

was it jin and hurley who said everything is going to change? i remember Ben telling jack no matter what everything is going to change now right before he went into surgery...

Jin mentioned that to Hurley in Hurley's "dream" sequence that he saw Jin standing next to Mr. Cluck and speaking english...I think the epi was "Everyone Hates Hugo".

Some guesses at what the images mean...

The "everything changes" transition from coins (monetary currency) to CDs (data or information as power / currency).

That was pretty much immediately clear to me - surprised noone else said this before now.
The following pair isn't as obvious, but stove/heat followed by protractor could mean that once basic needs are fulfilled we can move on to the luxury of gaining knowledge. (A symbol of superstition followed by one of science would seem more appropriate).

- mnw

Yeah, the episode was Everybody Hates Hugo, the dream right in the beggining (with Jin and the Cluck Chicken guy). That's what it instantly reminded me of...although that was probably just for the episode...

When they are removing Karl's straps you can see DeGroot in the background - the scene when he is walking among the young scientists - there is a writing on the screen. What I could see was only a fragment *THER* . Can anybody come up with a picture or and idea what would that be?

That was pretty much immediately clear to me - surprised noone else said this before now.
The following pair isn't as obvious, but stove/heat followed by protractor could mean that once basic needs are fulfilled we can move on to the luxury of gaining knowledge. (A symbol of superstition followed by one of science would seem more appropriate).

- mnw
Good point.. I think we might have a reference to science following if you look closely:
The sequence of: Nest > Evil Eye > Speedometer at zero > Internal gears of a watch...
I think this could be a reference to theory of relativity....

nest = representation of a new habitat
evil eye = mass (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass)
speedometer at zero which represents rest energy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rest_energy)
Internal gears = kinetic energy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic_energy)

The whole scene was a lot like Baby Einstein on speed.

Nolan,

as far as I can tell there are no clean frames. I posted some grabs above, they were the best frames I could find. I'd love to know what they said, too.

I find the wording of the suffering quote to be a bit odd. Using "causes" instead of singular "cause" doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Also, while I haven't read the entire thread to see if anyone has made the connection, but could the message the brainwashing is trying to send here is that one shouldn't think for themselves and should instead be a good soldier? You know . . . I think therefore I suffer?

I find the wording of the suffering quote to be a bit odd. Using "causes" instead of singular "cause" doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Also, while I haven't read the entire thread to see if anyone has made the connection, but could the message the brainwashing is trying to send here is that one shouldn't think for themselves and should instead be a good soldier? You know . . . I think therefore I suffer?

http://www.zenguide.com/principles/causes_of_suffering.cfm

http://www.zenguide.com/principles/causes_of_suffering.cfm

So this is an attempt to draw attention to Buddhist principles? Interesting since the Others show no sign of exhibiting such principles.

Buddha said:

The kind of seed sown
will produce that kind of fruit.
Those who do good will reap good results.
Those who do evil will reap evil results.
If you carefully plant a good seed,
You will joyfully gather good fruit."
Dhammapada

Someone else posted this before

Carl was pretty much being subjected to some form of behavior modification. It may have been aversion therapy (this is what was used in A Clockwork Orange).

In A Clockwork Orange, the main character, Alex, is a rapist and murderer. He is sent to prison and undergoes a behavior modification experiment to "cure" him. This involves him being strapped down with his eyes forced open so he can watch violent movies or various acts of violence. He is also being drugged with a painful substance. Meanwhile, Beethoven's music (which was Alex's stimulus to commit extremely violent acts) is being played while he watches these scenes so he comes to associate Beethoven's music with pain, as well as violence with pain.


I don't know if this has been mentioned yet or not but this is known as the Ludovico Technique
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludovico_Technique

the book stated he watched violent crimes, but those images were far from violent..
they were peaceful ones, at least to me they were!

(I haven't made it all the way through all of these posts yet, so I apologize in advance if all of this has already been mentioned.)

Thanks for posting the screen caps. I wonder if part f the reason that Sawyer was so taken in by the images is because some of them seem oddly sexually suggestive. For intance, the dolls faces are not the faces of baby dolls or little girls. They have bright red lips and heavy eye make-up. To me, that re-enforces the idea that this particular film was geared more towards the male mind. It seemed to me that Sawyer became particularly entranced when the doll faces started popping up. And I think one of the doll's faces (the fourth one down shown here: http://www.4815162342.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=33746&sid=d3b0fd7341dca35abfa10e4a39cc7494) looks a lot like Kate. Whether he was aware of it or not, I am sure that that got Sawyer's attention.

the book stated he watched violent crimes, but those images were far from violent..
they were peaceful ones, at least to me they were!


Unless of course they were trying to accomplish the opposite of that theory. Thus making the prisoner sick when he/she thinks about positive peaceful things....just a thought. This would lend itself to the abrasiveness of the Others and the fact that they seem to be killers.

I am new but I had a few thoughts on the video that I had not read yet- the Jacob shot is going up stairs which is a reference to Climbing Jacobs Ladder in the Bible- after Jacob meets God his name is changed to Isreal which Ben is a son to Jacob(talked about earlier). Also the Juliets sister's name was either Rachel or Rebekah which was the two wives of Jacob. Also, could the sister of Juliet be the pregnant girl Jack's dad killed? Anyway- I hope i did this correctly.

Your good bro...and I had made mention of Jacob's Ladder and how that concept might pertain to the overall story of Lost. The parallels are uncanny...

I am new but I had a few thoughts on the video that I had not read yet- the Jacob shot is going up stairs which is a reference to Climbing Jacobs Ladder in the Bible- after Jacob meets God his name is changed to Isreal which Ben is a son to Jacob(talked about earlier). Also the Juliets sister's name was either Rachel or Rebekah which was the two wives of Jacob. Also, could the sister of Juliet be the pregnant girl Jack's dad killed? Anyway- I hope i did this correctly.

The two wives of Jacob were Rachel and Leah. Rebekah was Jacob's mother.

Not sure how much relevance this has, but someone played in reverse the audio for the video and it was a woman saying, "Only fools are enslaved by time and space."

hi, this is my first time posting :)

i think the moon pictured in the video may be significant because tides (pulled by the moon) have been said to have a connection with a woman's cycle.

"Lunaception is a form of birth control that depends upon the woman practicing it to align her menstrual cycle with the phases of the moon. The method was developed by Louise Lacey in 1974 through her book, "Lunaception : a feminine odyssey into fertility and contraception." The fundamental premise of the method is that nature and the universe are full of rhythms and cycles. Women can come into balance with their own fertility by paying attention to the evolutionary connection between menstruation and the moon. The method has never been tested under controlled scientific conditions and is therefore termed a pseudoscience"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunaception

maybe the moon image has to do with fertility? any thoughts on this?

You know what the squiggly blue lines reminded me of?

The lines surrounding the ABC logo.

Just go to www.abc.go.com (http://www.abc.go.com) and look at the squiggly blue lines surrounding the logo.

I'm sure they're playing to what's familiar to us, the exec. producers, and I bet they inserted that effect as either a nod to ABC and Disney, a cool random effect, or that corporations like ABC-Disney (as previously implied by Rachel Blake during TLE) and THF are connected in very seedy ways (like that they donated a brainwashing slide show to one A. Hanso).

oh, i just realized something else! there are no ocean tides at the equator. perhaps this is significant too! is the island thought to be located near the equator?

maybe the women of the island have trouble conceiving since there are no tides and that is why they need(ed) juliet. that would explain why the Others took the tailie children.. because they cannot conceive.

I'm speculating that possibly both Alex and Kate have been subjected to the film before maybe? Alex could've easily seen it in the past, while Kate did have those 2 weeks or whatever with Benjamin... Maybe she had to watch that film...
So they're immune or unsurprised by the film, whether consciously or not..
Sawyer, never exposed, was mesmerized.


I think just the opposite. I think Sawyer had to watch that film during the time he was taken away for being too rebellious (like Karl was), and he remembered it when he saw it again.


Now why did Karl need the goggles and how did that change what he was viewing?
The glasses to keep the subject’s eyes open, a high-tech twist on the Clockwork Orange’s pins (no eye drops required).



I agree...he started to close his eyes as soon as they were taken off. Possibly a mild electric current going through the glasses, could keep the muscles around his eyes contracted and open?

Definitely the most creepy and powerful scene in the show so far. You can see it got me thinking enough to start posting!

Not sure how much relevance this has, but someone played in reverse the audio for the video and it was a woman saying, "Only fools are enslaved by time and space."


Doing a search for that phrase the top result throws up this.....

http://www.dharmaweb.org/index.php/Buddhist_Perspective_on_Time_and_Space

From DarkUFO:
http://losteastereggs.blogspot.com/2007/02/only-fools-are-enslaved-by-time-and.html

I checked and nobody posted about this specific part of the video yet, so I hope I'm first.

I don't know if anyone figured this out, but there seems to be some backmasking in the brainwashing video. A woman, who sounds a little like Ms. Klugh, says, "Only fools are enslaved by time and space," many times when the audio is played backwards.

already a thread

my mistake.

already a thread

Link?

Holy schnikeeess!!!! That is crazy maan...

I don't know if anyone noticed but the brainwash video was in room 23 it said on the door and Im pretty sure it's a devil number or something?

No, the "Devil's Number" is 666. I've never heard of 23 having anything to do with that.

It would have been funny if it was room 101...

Yes but 23 is one of THE NUMBERS!!! Oh you are crazy Valenzetti Equation...

Has there been anyone who has possibly sketched all of the squiggly blue lines in the later portions of t