When Jack asked why they didn't just take Ben off the island, Tom's response was the "ever since the sky turned purple..." and then they were interrupted. That seems to imply that since the hatch imploded and sky turned purple they have lost contact with the outside world and/or are unable to leave !

But if Ben knew he had cancer 2 (I believe it was 2) days before the plane crashed, he could have left then. Or did the sky go purple during the crash (ie Desmond's little screwup which caused the plane to go down)?

The sky only went purple back Des used the failsafe key and imploded the hatch. So, they did still have connection to the outside world post-crash of flight of 815 but not since the hatch imploded. This is confirmed by the fact that they had the footage of the 2004 World Series, which was after the crash of fl. 815.

They also mentioned it when they did the fake operations on Sawyer. They said that ever since the purple sky their COMMS went down. You'd think someone from the outside would come looking for them after a while.

Ok, but what doesn't make sense to me is that, if they didn't get him help from the outside world because of the sky turning purple etc., it doesn't explain why, at the TIME OF THE SKY TURNING purple, they already had Jack, Kate, Sawyer and Hurley kidnapped and on the dock.

The plan to get Jack was already underway, so the purple sky thing and losing connection to the outside world doesn't fit. :undecide:

They also mentioned it when they did the fake operations on Sawyer. They said that ever since the purple sky their COMMS went down. You'd think someone from the outside would come looking for them after a while.

Yeah, that's what I was remembering. And, in theory (I suppose, Penelope is supposed to come looking for them sometime soon. ;)

Ok, but what doesn't make sense to me is that, if they didn't get him help from the outside world because of the sky turning purple etc., it doesn't explain why, at the TIME OF THE SKY TURNING purple, they already had Jack, Kate, Sawyer and Hurley kidnapped and on the dock.

The plan to get Jack was already underway, so the purple sky thing and losing connection to the outside world doesn't fit. :undecide:


that occured to me, but that also supposes that Ben's intentions were to have Jack operate on him, where as we may be able to suspect that getting Jack to operate was part of a scheme to get Jack under their thumb. not to say Ben didn't need the surgery, but perhaps he chose not to go elsewhere to use his ailment to help turn Jack.

Possibly Bens original plan was to go off the Island for surgery somewhere else, and in fact they had other plans for Jack, Kate and Sawyer, but then since no more outside contact was possible he decided he could use him (Ben is a quick thinker, after all)

Yes, this troubled me as well. I think I agree with Cproton, however. If they were being taken already because of "Jacob's list" then there was already a plan for the three of them. As discussed many times, "2 weeks" etc etc...and how "Ben would rather die than see them go." They need to be there for some reason, something other than surgery. but something Picket obviously doesn't care enough about to kill them.

But, now that they are all stuck there, maybe Ben used Jack for the surgery.

Still, he could have left a long time ago. So it doesn't quite make sense.

Ben said that he lived his entire life on the island, maybe he can't leave the island. Maybe the island is keeping Ben alive in the same way that it cured Locke's paralyisis, and Ruth's cancer.

The other thing that didn't make sense is Tom was about to say they couldn't go off the island to have surgery because the sky went purple. Ben already captured Jack kate and Sawyer before the sky went purple so this doesn't make sense in the timeline.

I took it like more useless conversation, such as the "by the way I'm Tom' comment, maybe he was not answering Jack's question. Or maybe I have no idea what I am talking about.:)

When the sky turned purple, didn't that open them up to world? The magnetic shield was lowered? It allowed Penny's watchmen to see the island for a few seconds.

Possibly Bens original plan was to go off the Island for surgery somewhere else, and in fact they had other plans for Jack, Kate and Sawyer, but then since no more outside contact was possible he decided he could use him (Ben is a quick thinker, after all)

Didn't one of the Others say (in a previous epi) that Jack wasn't on Jacob's original list? I assumed they included him themselves in order to operate on Ben. This doesn't answer the question of why they didn't send Ben off the island, but it does seem that originally they had plans only for Kate & Sawyer (if I'm remembering this right!).

if they don't have communication with the outside it must mean that the promises that they made jack and now juliet were a lie.
however, you would think that juliet would be one of the ones that would know whether they can still communicate with the outside world and based on that she would either accept or reject what ben said to her in the operating room..
so i'm thinking that they can still leave

Just thinking outloud...

1) Ben decides to betray or force his fellow others to STAY on the Island.
2) While captive, creates a sense of doubt in Locke about the Button.
3) Knows, Locke will at some point NOT push it (as he does)
4) Ben, takes Jack as his "insurance" policy while KNOWING that the discharge would knock out communications with the outside World.
5) Has manipulated EVERYONE Losties and Others all while making sure that Jack would be able to save him from his tumor...

Thoughts?

-KNX

As far as Ben not leaving the Island goes, it is entirely possible that he had no idea that he was that close to dying.
Maybe he thought he had enough time to deal with the lostie situation, which he may have thought was more important and immediate of a problem. He could deal with the tumor later.

Just a thought... maybe Ben really HAD been on the island for his entire life, and him leaving to get the surgery now, would've raised too may red flags. As in who the hell are you? Where id you come from? Why is there ZERO rcecord of who this 40-something man is?

But I also like the idea (Bosshog) of Ben having no idea he was that close to dying, in fact maybe he just wanted Jack to check him out and he'd only leave the island as a last result. Then when he got the news, "the sky already turned purple" and it was too late for him to leave, for whatever reason, and surgery needed to happen immediatley. Actually, I like that better,

Just a thought... maybe Ben really HAD been on the island for his entire life, and him leaving to get the surgery now, would've raised too may red flags. As in who the hell are you? Where id you come from? Why is there ZERO rcecord of who this 40-something man is?

But I also like the idea (Bosshog) of Ben having no idea he was that close to dying, in fact maybe he just wanted Jack to check him out and he'd only leave the island as a last result. Then when he got the news, "the sky already turned purple" and it was too late for him to leave, for whatever reason, and surgery needed to happen immediatley. Actually, I like that better,

I am having the same issue with the timeline that others are having here, but I think that could potentially explain it... If Henry just wanted Jack to check the X-rays, without knowing what they actually showed (essentially, the X-rays were taken, clearly show something, but they want Jack to tell them what it is, how bad it is, etc.), then this would all still flow. They go fetch Jack for the 'consult', thinking that if it's bad, they'll just head to the mainland. If it's not, no worries. But then, bam, sky goes purple, comms go down, no one can leave. And on top of that, it's a tumor that will kill Ben in a few weeks and needs immediate surgery. So, they're forced to use Jack (what luck!).

But if that's the case, then Juliet would never believe Ben's offer - if she knows they can't get off the island to save Ben, what makes her think he's going to somehow figure out a way to get her off the island? Unless they think they'll be able to fix the comms issue eventually, or that a boat will eventually come, but wouldn't have come in time to save Ben...

I suppose it could be explained that way.

When Ben came to Jack to ask that he do the x-rays, he told Jack they had other plans for him. But once he saw the x-rays, everything changed. That tells me Ben was going to get treatment elsewhere while they tortured Jack. But once Jack knew, Jack could wait it out until Ben died. Ben took control back by using Jack for the surgery. It's all about the mental control with these guys. Oh, and guns too.

Unless they think they'll be able to fix the comms issue eventually, or that a boat will eventually come, but wouldn't have come in time to save Ben...

I suppose it could be explained that way.

Yep, that's where I'm at to. I think they receive their shipments, supplies, etc. but without outside communication they wouldn't have come in time.

i agree that the timeline is confusing, but ben said that '2 days after i found out i had a tumour, a spinal surgeon dropped out of the sky', so i imagine that the plan from that point on was to get jack to operate,
toms comment may have been regarding the situation after jack refused to operate.

i think that the swan hatch ( which turned the sky purple when it imploded ) was a primary power source for the island, including the radio tower ( which danielle said the others controlled ) - remember sayid's comment about Chernobyl ( which was a power station )
the radio tower may what allowed the other's communications.
and maybe now the radio tower is inoperable - no power

so if im right then danielle's distress call would no longer be playing on it's loop.

I do think that Ben was always planning on using Jack to operate on him. I think that Ben didn't realize the urgency of the condition and was planning on indoctrinating Jack much more. Why else would have hold Jack seperate from Kate and Sawyer?

Just thinking outloud...

1) Ben decides to betray or force his fellow others to STAY on the Island.
2) While captive, creates a sense of doubt in Locke about the Button.
3) Knows, Locke will at some point NOT push it (as he does)
4) Ben, takes Jack as his "insurance" policy while KNOWING that the discharge would knock out communications with the outside World.
5) Has manipulated EVERYONE Losties and Others all while making sure that Jack would be able to save him from his tumor...

Thoughts?

-KNX

Makes sense to me!

Ok, at the risk of sounding real stupid here.... What about Michael and Walt? Wouldn't they be back if no one could really leave the island? Didn't they leave after the sky turned purple? So how would that figure in with the not being able to leave theory?

I'm operating off of memory here...so I'm not 100%
I apologize ahead of time if I'm really missing something.

I like your idea BlackLotus. The Swan Station had something to do with power generation and/or communication with the outside world. Once it blew (the purple sky), it also took out everything else with it.

However, it still does not explain how come he did not leave BEFORE Desmond blew the failsafe. :undecide:

Just thought I'd throw this into the mix:

Re: Prince's song: Purple Rain:

It is a theory that "Purple Rain" is a metaphor for heaven, inspired by the testimonies of a woman who died on the operating table that the afterlife is full of falling purple rain. :shock:

I think somebody alluded to it before, but here's what I think Ben's original plan was.

First, he's not leaving the island, nor has he ever signified in any way that he would ever need or want to.

Second, Pickett said that 'Shepard wasn't even on Jakob's list' or something to that effect.

Third, it's hard to tell when Ben is lying and when he is telling the truth, however, his speech to Jack when he said "We had such a great plan to break you," "Our plan went out the door as soon as you saw my X-rays" and his proof of God, spinal surgeon fell out of the sky speech showed his desperation about the tumor, leading me to believe he was telling the truth.

Now, with these pieces of information it seems as if Sawyer and Kate were kidnapped because of the wishes of the infamous unseen Jakob, but Ben added Jack to the list because of his tumor and Jack's ability as a spinal surgeon.

These are all connected in their own right, so i guess the real question here is if the others still have electricity, running water, walkie talkies, other forms of power..etc, what effects did the "sky turning purple" have on the others?

I was thinking that maybe Ben needed permission from someone (Jacob?) to leave the island. Maybe he was told he could leave after Sawyer and Kate were captured, or could not even ask to leave until Sawyer and Kate were captured, but then the hatch implosion screwed everything up. Jack was an insurance policy.

If Ben has lived his entire life on the Island, then he is not a citizen of any country of the world. It is therefore reasonable to assume that he does not have the health insurance to pay for spinal surgery, ergo he could not leave the Island for surgery. Whatever healing properties the Island posseses, they are evidently not up to the task of helping Ben, and so he is relieved to discover that a spinal surgen just fell out of the sky. Hence, the kidnapping.

None of which has anything to do with the sky turning purple.

None of which has anything to do with the sky turning purple.


Right, so what effect did the blast/sky turning purple have on the Others? Do we know that yet?

Possibly Bens original plan was to go off the Island for surgery somewhere else, and in fact they had other plans for Jack, Kate and Sawyer, but then since no more outside contact was possible he decided he could use him (Ben is a quick thinker, after all)

Yes! I thought everyone would be talking about this. I'm surprised.



It looks to me like Jack, Kate and Sawyer were taken for some other reason. When Juliet comes to the mind washing hatch (for lack of a better name) and tells Pickett that Ben says to let them go, Pickett says he knows Ben would never let them go (makes you wonder what Ben would have done to Picket when he found he's shot Sawyer). If all Ben wanted Jack for was the surgery, why wouldn't he want them to go? Sawyer and Kate had served their purpose by being bait.

I've been perplexed by Ben's expression as he watched Jack operate on Colleen from the observation room. What if it was only then he realized Jack could remove the tumor? I had thought Ben's "we had such a wonderful idea to break you" speech didn't ring true. Plus why did Ben want to earn Sawyer's respect so much? Just to keep him in his cage for a day doesn't make sense?

Ben never promised to bring Jack home if he removed the turmor. He hasn't told Jack what he has to do

I'm betting this all has something to do with the big project. I’m also betting that Ben wins Jack over and the big guy switches sides.


I might not be expressing myself well. Was pre-migraine during Lost and I'm post migraine now.

It looks to me like Jack, Kate and Sawyer were taken for some other reason. When Juliet comes to the mind washing hatch (for lack of a better name) and tells Pickett that Ben says to let them go, Pickett says he knows Ben would never let them go (makes you wonder what Ben would have done to Picket when he found he's shot Sawyer). If all Ben wanted Jack for was the surgery, why wouldn't he want them to go? Sawyer and Kate had served their purpose by being bait.

Ben probably didn't want them escaping because then they'd be able to lead the other survivors of Flight 815 back to Alcatraz and also supply the other survivors with information about them which they've gone to great lengths to conceal from the 815 survivors.

why did Ben want to earn Sawyer's respect so much? Just to keep him in his cage for a day doesn't make sense?

I think Ben is kind of a control freak and he needs to have everyone agree with his way of thinking. Remeber when he was talking to Jack in his cell and he almost told Jack that he needed an attitude adjustment before catching himself. Ben strikes me as an overbearing father whose losing control of his children

I’m also betting that Ben wins Jack over and the big guy switches sides.

I doubt that this will happen but you never know. If Lost has taught us anything it that with the proper motivation people are capable of anything.

I think the plan all along was to have Jack operate. Here's the transcript:
[The door opens and Ben walks in.]

BEN: I'd like to talk to him.

JULIET: Ok. So talk to him.

BEN: Alone. Please.

JACK: I'm fine with her being here.

BEN: And I'm thrilled that your fine, Jack, but it's private. Doctor-patient confidentiality.

JULIET: Sure. Of course.

[Juliet leaves the room.]

JACK: Mind if I eat?

[Jack takes a bite of the burger.]

BEN: We had such a wonderful plan to break you, Jack.

JACK: Break me?

BEN: Wear you down till you were convinced we weren't your enemies. Get you to trust us. And then of course we'd lead you to believe that you were choosing to do... whatever we asked you to do. All of this of course assumed that you would get... invested.

JACK: Invested in what?

BEN: Has it not occurred to you that Juliet bears a striking resemblance to your ex-wife?

JACK: Why are you telling me this?

BEN: I'm telling you this, Jack, because my wonderful plan... got shot to sunshine when you saw my damned x-rays and figured out I was dying.

JACK: All of this... you brought me here to operate on you. You... you want me to save your life?

BEN: No, I want you to want to save my life. But we're beyond that now, so... all I can ask is that you think about it. Do you believe in God, Jack?

JACK: Do you?

BEN: Two days after I found out I had a fatal tumor on my spine, a spinal surgeon fell out of the sky. And if that's not proof of God, I don't know what is.

In other words, they wanted Jack to fall for Juliet, thinking he then would do as she asked, which would be to operate on Ben. They seem rather naive in the romance department. ;)

That's the thing right there; Ben knew Jack was a spinal surgeon from day one so he has had this plan of using Jack for the surgery ever since Jack crashed. So the fact that Tom mentions when the sky went purple is just out of place and illogical as an answer to Jack's question about why Ben didn't go to a doc beforehand. The question is, do the writers know that this is a huge mistake or are they just messin with us on purpose to see if we're awake? lol

My theory is that when Desmond triggered the failsafe, it caused a time distortion that took down The Others' communication system.

For everyone on the island, it has only been a matter of days since the sky turned purple. To the outside world, it has been two years.

Ben said that he lived his entire life on the island, maybe he can't leave the island.

I think it's more to do with Ben being unable to leave. In those circumstances they would need to bring a surgical team to the island to remove the tumour, rather than take Ben to the mainland.

As they had contact with the outside world, it would probably be a simple matter to get a professional opinion on the x-rays and they would know that Ben didn't have long to live. Maybe it would take too long to get the right people to the island to do the op? Or maybe they can only bring people to the island under certain circumstances, and unfortunately for Ben, this wasn't one of them.

So Ben had to go with the only other option of attempting to engage the services of the island's resident spinal surgeon.

Okay here's my take on this...

On the island it appears that Juliet is the only 'doctor' so her knowledge of spinal tumours might be sketchy to say the least. She may have seen the x-ray and a) thought it wasn't too bad or b ) realised it was bad but decided not to tell Ben as she wants rid of him anyway. There's also the fact that Jack said to Tom that the tumour would need a biopsy to see if it's malignant - if even a spinal surgeon doesn't know that with the actual tumour in front of him, then how much could really e told from the x-ray as to the severity of the problem.

Then they find out that one of the losties is a spinal surgeon and so his name is added to the 'list' that Jocob ordered so that he could have alook at the x-rays. BUT they wanted him to look at them willingly so concocted a plan to get Jack to fall for Juliet so he would be more 'objective'. (Don't forget the 'I want you to WANT to help me' line)

When Jack sees the x-rays (possibly 'planted' possibly not - they couldn't know Coleen would get shot and need Jack's help!) and sees how serious the situation is, Ben sudddenly realises he needs treatment urgently but since the sky 'turned purple' they have been unable to get off the island or commuicate with the outside world so they're stuck with getting Jack to operate!

Mind you - added into all this is the 'time dilation' theory...if time really does move fater off the island then perhaps Ben knows if he's got 3 months to live ON the island, he'd be dead before he reached a doctor elsewhere.

When the sky turned purple, didn't that open them up to world? The magnetic shield was lowered? It allowed Penny's watchmen to see the island for a few seconds.
It also created a huge EMP, which ruins comunication devices.

Didnt Benry say when Michael was leaving the island "you wont be able to come back, once you leave you will never find it again" or something to that effect.

Maybe Ben cant leave to have surgery as he wouldnt be able to return, just like Michael

I think it's still confusing because of the time line. It isn't hard to see a tumor that big on a film if you have any medical training. Juliet would have known that Ben's life was in jeopardy before Jack saw the films. I am still not sure where Tom was going with is cut-off statement.

Maybe Ben cant leave to have surgery as he wouldnt be able to return, just like Michael

That could be one reason.


But I'm thinking of the exchange between Jack and Ben in TGB:
JACK: If you could leave this island why would you still be here?
BEN: Yes, Jack, why would we be here?

There's obviously an important reason why the Others can't leave the island, and I'm pretty sure that it ties in with why Ben can't leave to have the op.

That could be one reason.


But I'm thinking of the exchange between Jack and Ben in TGB:
JACK: If you could leave this island why would you still be here?
BEN: Yes, Jack, why would we be here?

There's obviously an important reason why the Others can't leave the island, and I'm pretty sure that it ties in with why Ben can't leave to have the op.

That makes sense, but what would that have to do with the sky turning purple event?

That makes sense, but what would that have to do with the sky turning purple event?

We know that it knocked out their communications. Who knows what else?

My guess is that at the moment there's no way to get anyone on or off the island, so there's no alternative course of action for Ben - he has to enlist Jack's help by some means, or die.


Of course, although Walt and Michael set off before the purple sky event, my guess is that they never made it in time and they'll be circling the island until S4 or 5. :rolleyes:

Maybe Bens cancer is moving at a slow rate on the Island but it he gets off the Island for treatment then he would die and maybe thats why he stayed. Or maybe JACOB doesnt want Ben to leave

That's the thing right there; Ben knew Jack was a spinal surgeon from day one so he has had this plan of using Jack for the surgery ever since Jack crashed. So the fact that Tom mentions when the sky went purple is just out of place and illogical as an answer to Jack's question about why Ben didn't go to a doc beforehand. The question is, do the writers know that this is a huge mistake or are they just messin with us on purpose to see if we're awake? lol

Yeah I agree Tom's comment does not makes sense in the timeline for the show. They had months to get Ben off the island to have surgery, if they wanted to, the sky turning purple wouldn't have stopped them for the 2-3 months since the plane crashed.


My guess is that at the moment there's no way to get anyone on or off the island, so there's no alternative course of action for Ben - he has to enlist Jack's help by some means, or die.

but there was an alternative, Ben could have left the island to get surgery the minute he found out he had cancer, but instead he waited months for no apparent reason. If he was so concerned about getting rid of the tumor he would have taken action immediately.

Gregg seemed to imply that this will be addressed in upcoming episodes

It reminds me of the movie "Field of Dreams..." When Archie Graham the young ballplayer steps off the field....he ages about 70 years. And after he saves the little girl...he can't go back again.

''ever since the sky turned purple ''isnt a line that d be used by someone who knows a lot about the thing he talks of..so its implied that the others prolly arent the same others that controll the hatch ,and henry really hadnt been in there before..as for the button they migh as well never seen it...or know its use...
one more thing that secONDS this is a hidden audio clue ,in the explosion epi,where whispers seem to say ''Apparently they have done this before' when the countdown hits zero,which clearly implies that they dont know much..that,or the whispers come from different others..after all carlton and damon ve already confirmed the existense of more than one kind of others...

perhaps the incident turned the sky purple too and Tom was talking about the first time

Yes, this troubled me as well. I think I agree with Cproton, however. If they were being taken already because of "Jacob's list" then there was already a plan for the three of them. As discussed many times, "2 weeks" etc etc...and how "Ben would rather die than see them go." They need to be there for some reason, something other than surgery. but something Picket obviously doesn't care enough about to kill them.

But, now that they are all stuck there, maybe Ben used Jack for the surgery.

Still, he could have left a long time ago. So it doesn't quite make sense.

DIDNT PICKET SAY THAT JACK WASNT ON JACOB'S LIST?

I also agree with Cproton....

I am beginning to think that Tom has been on the island for awhile. He may be referring to the first "incident" that caused the end of the Dharma Initiative as we know it from the films.

perhaps the incident turned the sky purple too and Tom was talking about the first time

I am beginning to think that Tom has been on the island for awhile. He may be referring to the first "incident" that caused the end of the Dharma Initiative as we know it from the films.

I'm convinced that both Tom and Ben have been there a long, long time. Maybe even as part of the original Dharma people - note that little "namaste" bow that they both do from time to time.

I'm pretty sure that he's referring to the "incident".

I'm convinced that both Tom and Ben have been there a long, long time. [...]

Didn't Ben tell Jack that he spent his "entire life on this island"?