Add one more 18th century thinker to the list of folks referenced: Edmund Burke (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmund_Burke):


Edmund Burke (12 January (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/January_12) 1729 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1729) – 9 July (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_9) 1797 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1797)) was an Anglo-Irish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Irish) statesman, author, orator, political theorist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_theorist), and philosopher (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy), who served for many years in the British House of Commons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_House_of_Commons) as a member of the Whig (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Whig_Party) party. He is chiefly remembered for his support of the American (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States) colonies in the struggle against King George III (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_III_of_the_United_Kingdom) that led to the American Revolution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Revolution) and for his strong opposition to the French Revolution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Revolution). The latter made Burke one of the leading figures within the conservative (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservatism) faction of the Whig party (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Whig_Party) (which he dubbed the "Old Whigs"), in opposition to the pro-revolutionary "New Whigs", led by Charles James Fox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_James_Fox). Burke also published philosophical work on aesthetics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aesthetics) and founded the Annual Register (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annual_Register), a political review. He is often regarded as the father of Anglo-American conservatism.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmund_Burke#_note-0)

Any thoughts on why he's being referenced here, especially in the form of Juliet's smarmy ex-husband?
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmund_Burke#_note-0)

There's a thread comparing Ben and Edmund Burke here: http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=68405

And I was saying on there that one of his famous quotes sounds exactly like something Ben would say..

"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is that good men do nothing."

Good men.

Add one more 18th century thinker to the list of folks referenced: Edmund Burke (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmund_Burke):



Any thoughts on why he's being referenced here, especially in the form of Juliet's smarmy ex-husband?
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmund_Burke#_note-0)

I think that's a great find - a nice juxtaposition by the writers. If Ed stands for conservativism....take that to modern end...conservatives = capitalists...and that's certainly what Ed seemed like, before his demise.

The Others, by contrast, seem to subscribe to a more liberal/socialist school of thought, based on phrases like "we are the cause of our own demise" and their commune living and all.

Don't know what it means, but it feels very poetic.

those darn writers....always thinking up something cool to look up

Add one more 18th century thinker to the list of folks referenced: Edmund Burke (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmund_Burke):



Any thoughts on why he's being referenced here, especially in the form of Juliet's smarmy ex-husband?
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmund_Burke#_note-0)

Hey T,

Knew you'd catch that. I jumped up out of my chair when I saw the name Edmund Burke. Not quite sure of the connection yet. Here's a sorta-funny idea, though: Isn't it kinda ironic that a guy named for the head of the Old Whig party is bald? *lol*

I really wouldn't be surprised if that were also meant as a shoutout to executive producer Bryan Burk, it wouldn't be the first time they used the name of a crew member in an episode...

(BTW, one of the characters on J.J. Abrams' old show Felicity was Brian Burke, modelled after Bryan Burk. :grin:)

I think that's a great find - a nice juxtaposition by the writers. If Ed stands for conservativism....take that to modern end...conservatives = capitalists...and that's certainly what Ed seemed like, before his demise.

The Others, by contrast, seem to subscribe to a more liberal/socialist school of thought, based on phrases like "we are the cause of our own demise" and their commune living and all.

Don't know what it means, but it feels very poetic.


I'm not sure it's that clear cut. Burke's conservatism favored the traditional values of the 18th century landed gentry and aristocracy. He opposed the economic reforms coming out of the industrial revolution. In his day, a capitalist would have been considered a liberal. Left wing socialism (by our definition) hadn't yet emerged.

That having been said, I havn't quite figured out reasons for the use of philosophers names for characters yet. It seems like there should be a connection, but is it really there?

I'm not sure it's that clear cut. Burke's conservatism favored the traditional values of the 18th century landed gentry and aristocracy. He opposed the economic reforms coming out of the industrial revolution. In his day, a capitalist would have been considered a liberal. Left wing socialism (by our definition) hadn't yet emerged.

That having been said, I havn't quite figured out reasons for the use of philosophers names for characters yet. It seems like there should be a connection, but is it really there?


I do think there's a purpose: most of the philosophers who have been referenced have been Enlightenment thinkers. And the Age of Enlightenment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment) (based on my very limited understand of philosophy) was notable for the rise of Reason--the idea that science and reason could lead to the betterment of humanity in all spheres.

So, then we have The Hanso Foundation, whose original mission statement was :

"The Hanso Foundation stands at the vanguard of social and scientific research for the advancement of the human race. For 40 years, the Foundation has offered grants to worthy experiments seeking to promote world peace through improved health, prevention, vitality and longevity. The Hanso Foundation. Reaching out to a better tomorrow."THF seems to be placing faith that science can better humanity...Now I don't know how it's all going to shake out in the end with DHARMA and THF and so on. But regardless of which organizations are in control and so on, there certainly seems to be an exploration in the show's mythology of the struggle between faith and science. A struggle that began in the age of the Enlightenment.

So, that's my take on the importance of the names. I was just wondering how Burke falls into this scheme. I don't really know enough about him as a thinker to figure it out... Perhaps it isn't the indivudal thinkers themselves, as much as it is an effort to focus our attention on the period in general?

I think you also have to think why it was necessary to "rub-out" Edmund so that Juliet could be free.

Doesn't ABC already have a Dr. Burke?

Ha! I knew there was a connection - thank you for sparing my poor addled brain... ;)

Here's a sorta-funny idea, though: Isn't it kinda ironic that a guy named for the head of the Old Whig party is bald? *lol*
:biglaugh: :rotflmao2:

That having been said, I havn't quite figured out reasons for the use of philosophers names for characters yet. It seems like there should be a connection, but is it really there?
I suppose it follows the line of thinking that they are all LOST souls - so using the philosophies of history's deepest thinkers could help us understand them and their divisions better?

In Season 1, I would have blithely supported some general vague vision connecting these ideas - affirming that the writers KNEW what they were doing and their miraculous thought process would all be revealed in the end. Now though, I'm starting to feel as you do - is there really a vision behind this, or is this just a pedantic device to make us think the show is smarter than it really is???
:confused:

I do think there's a purpose: most of the philosophers who have been referenced have been Enlightenment thinkers. And the Age of Enlightenment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment) (based on my very limited understand of philosophy) was notable for the rise of Reason--the idea that science and reason could lead to the betterment of humanity in all spheres.

So, then we have The Hanso Foundation, whose original mission statement was :

THF seems to be placing faith that science can better humanity...Now I don't know how it's all going to shake out in the end with DHARMA and THF and so on. But regardless of which organizations are in control and so on, there certainly seems to be an exploration in the show's mythology of the struggle between faith and science. A struggle that began in the age of the Enlightenment.

So, that's my take on the importance of the names. I was just wondering how Burke falls into this scheme. I don't really know enough about him as a thinker to figure it out... Perhaps it isn't the indivudal thinkers themselves, as much as it is an effort to focus our attention on the period in general?


I agree with you that there is an ongoing struggle in the series between opposed forces (good/evil, science/religion) and the addition of Enlightenment philosophers certainly helps to spotlight that aspect of the plot. It is interesting that Burke died, since Burke (the philosopher) took the more traditional road during the Enlightenment and was opposed to many ideas proposed by Rousseau and Locke - particularly concerning the role and power of government.

I think we can add medical ethics and morality to the discussion, particularly after last night. Artificial incemination was touched on, but I think that cloning might be an issue as well. Ben is Alex's 'father,' but there is no mother in the picure. Could she be a clone? Where is the DNA for Juliet's experiments coming from? Juliets been on the island for over three years. Could Alex be experiencing rapid aging? The discrepency between the ages of the woman and the uteris in the x-rays that Juliet examines in her interview support the idea. This also ties in with the notion of lost time and could explain the presence of the skeletons in the cave.

There is also a big ethical dilema suggested by the psychological experiments conducted on Carl. Why else would a medical research colony need to be seperated from the rest of the world and protected by numerous high tech "security systems."

Ben is Alex's 'father,' but there is no mother in the picure. Could she be a clone?

Mountcashel,

I think we're supposed to believe that Alex is Danielle's daughter.

I didn't copy everything they said, just the highlights. Can anyone fill in the blanks?


Edmund mentions "ethical" and "criminal collaboration" while talking to Juliette about "getting in" on her research.

Later her sister says "bastard ex husband ... do with ethics"


I was under the impression he wouldn't approve of her research, but somehow could convince himself that if it results in "good" he could justify it as cutting edge science.

He mentions his "reputation" being beneficial to Juliette, but he seems like a player.

It seems ethics, reputation and good are all black and white issues.

Why wouldn't Edmund allow Juliette to take the other job? What is he holding over her head?

I think that Edmund knew that Juliet is a brilliant scientist and wanted to keep her around because he thought that sooner or later, she would come up with something incredible and he wanted the credit - or most of it. If she left his company, he wouldn't be able to grab any of it. I think if someone outed Juliet in terms of her research and said that what she was doing (Testing her ideas on her extremely ill sister; trying to get a very sick person pregnant that might not be too long to parent the child; some people might say that she was just using her sister as a vessel to further her research - I think that she was using her research to help her sister fulfill a lifelong wish of becoming a mother.) was unethical and that she should go to jail, Edmund would have steared clear of her. If she finished her work and was successful, he wanted her to do that under his company's name so that he could cash in on her brilliance and success...
100%
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aesthetics

It's interesting that the real Edmund Burke was interested in ""the science of how things are known via the senses". It's also interesting that, according to this link, he's connected to David Hume (Hume, as we know, is Desmond's last name.). I wonder if someone that was a modern day thinker that followed Edmund Burke's philosophies would get into investigating paranormal investigantion?

Doesn't ABC already have a Dr. Burke?

LOL thats why he had to the axe so soon

Mountcashel,

I think we're supposed to believe that Alex is Danielle's daughter.

But should we? If so, was she a "partner" or a "donor"? Were "husband and wife" helping each other with the "trap"?

But should we? If so, was she a "partner" or a "donor"? Were "husband and wife" helping each other with the "trap"?Yes, I think that Alex is Danielle's daughter. No, I don't think that Danielle and Ben were helping each other out with the trap. I think that Ben and whomever else wanted a baby, so they kidnapped Alex when she was an infant and raised her like she was born in Otherville. Who knows what Ben told her when she was younger regarding her mother. I don't think that Danielle and Ben have a relationship (or had one) other than Ben kidnapped her daughter. I think that Ben wanted to continue Otherville on the Island, but he and everybody else is infertile due to possible life extension projects that might extend the length of your life, but destroy your reproductive abilities. I think that Juliet was brought to the Island to try and parlay some of her mice experiments with human reproduction experiments.

Doesn't ABC already have a Dr. Burke?

yep, greys anatomy

anyone else find it funny how he had problems with his mom (talking on the phone with her) "your mean..."

The conversation with his mom can't be a throw away. I suspect Ed's mom will show up in future eps and we will see just how mean she is.

But should we? If so, was she a "partner" or a "donor"? Were "husband and wife" helping each other with the "trap"?

Hey TMS,

It's always been my belief that Alex was Danielle's child, the father was that Robert (Was it Robert?) fella mentioned in season 1 and Alex was taken from Danielle after she gave birth. I think Danielle says that the baby was taken a week later. Don't quote me on that, though.

Hey TMS,

It's always been my belief that Alex was Danielle's child, the father was that Robert (Was it Robert?) fella mentioned in season 1 and Alex was taken from Danielle after she gave birth. I think Danielle says that the baby was taken a week later. Don't quote me on that, though.Yep...that's what I remember, too. What I want to know is does Alex know that her real mother is on the Island and that Ben isn't her biological father?

my t dux...that's a very cute and creative avatar! I love it!