That's what Pickett said about Sawyer and Kate to Juliett.

Yet Pickett was going to kill Sawyer anyway - and I'm sure that Ben knew this.

So, WHY?? Nothing? Everything??

What I didn't get about that statement is why? What did Ben need Kate and Sawyer for at that point if he got Jack to do the surgery? I thought their only purpose was to manipulate Jack into doing the operation. Once that was underay, why were Kate and Sawyer still needed? What did they plan to do with them at that point?

This really brings me back to...... What in the world did he say to Juliet in the Operating Room?!!! Wasn't there another quote that he said--- he wanted to let them go?

I mean, really, when it comes down to it, there HAS to be a reason beyond Ben's surgery that's motivating the Others.

Well, according to Pickett, Jack wasn't on this list of Jacob's. What is this list for...who knows? But maybe we can infer that Sawyer and Kate WERE on the list. In which case, Kate and Sawyer were taken for another reason entirely. And that Pickett says that Ben would rather die than let them go also leads to having a larger motive to take Sawyer and Kate. So right why take them? Well, what is the list? I don't think that we will get any answers on that anytime soon.

As far as Ben knowing that Pickett wanted to kill Sawyer, Ben was most concerned with saving his own life. Shows the split, or conflicting feelings within the Others, preservation of one's own life and happiness, or preseration of the 'project'. Like Juliet choosing to help Sawyer and Kate escape in turn for happiness off the island, Alex wanting to save her love Carl.

I took that "Ben would rather die than let them go" = "Screw off and get out of my way." Pickett wanted them dead for his own personal reasons and Juliet was trying to stop him. Pickett didn't give a damn about what Ben wanted. He just wanted to kill Sawyer.

Just posted these thoughts on a different thread but thought I'd weigh in here too.

Why would Ben rather die than let Kate and Sawyer go if he needed them to help prevent him from dying? I think what Pickett was saying was, 'I know you're full of it Juliet--Ben would never say that because Kate and Sawyer are too important to Ben'. (Emphasis on: to Ben). Pickett hated Sawyer and wanted him dead out of his grief for Colleen, but knows that Ben feels differently (which is why he waited for him to go under anesthesia before he went on his rampage).

Kate and Sawyer are important beyond getting Jack to do the surgery, and we can presume they are on Jacob's list, and we just watched this whole episode with heavy fertility themes, so I'm back to my theory that the Others wanted to breed Kate and Sawyer, or maybe just impregnate them (yeah, Sawyer too maybe!).

I took that "Ben would rather die than let them go" = "Screw off and get out of my way." Pickett wanted them dead for his own personal reasons and Juliet was trying to stop him. Pickett didn't give a damn about what Ben wanted. He just wanted to kill Sawyer.

I agree - we all know he was out to get Sawyer.
The fact that Sawyer kicked his *** and zapped him in the head just gave him further motivation.

I still don't understand why Pickett hated Sawyer so much. It's not like Sawyer killed Colleen. His anger for him never sat with me.

he didnt kill her no,but he sure as hell looked better than danny!whats a better reason to hate somebody than that?and maybe the fact that he slept with kate played a small role!
anyhoo,he most likely needed a scape goat ..a fall guy to personify his distress..nothing personal whatsoever!

This really brings me back to...... What in the world did he say to Juliet in the Operating Room?!!! Wasn't there another quote that he said--- he wanted to let them go?

At the end of the episode, that's what Jack wanted to know too! I'm surprised you missed her telling Jack that Ben said he'd let her go home if she helped Sawyer & Kate go free - thus meeting the conditions for Jack to finish the surgery and save Ben's life.

Maybe the others want to do a study on the rehabilitation of convicted fellons. I'm not really sure why they would want Kate and Sawyer.

When Pickett said that to Juliet, it made me wonder if what Ben said to Juliet was that it would kill him to find out that the prisoners escaped. I am sure it isn't what was said, but I sure don't trust Juliet, either.

I mean, really, when it comes down to it, there HAS to be a reason beyond Ben's surgery that's motivating the Others.

I don't think that they knew Ben had a tumor when Jack got there. He shed light on the situation. They knew something was wrong, hence the xrays, but not what. They thought that with a doctor of Jack's caliber around he could fix it. Cancer is tricky. It can come back. Keeping Jack around is smart to help treat Ben when needed. I wouldn't be surprised if they invite Jack to stay like they did Juliette. They are both doctors that are extremely talented at what they do.

I still think they want to breed Kate and Sawyer because of some incident that caused all of the women to become sterile. This may be why they recruited Juliet and why they're obsessed with kids and pregnant women.

Maybe the others want to do a study on the rehabilitation of convicted fellons. I'm not really sure why they would want Kate and Sawyer.

Kate was never convicted. She ran during her extradition, that's why the Marshal was taking her back to LA.
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I don't think that they knew Ben had a tumor when Jack got there. He shed light on the situation. They knew something was wrong, hence the xrays, but not what. They thought that with a doctor of Jack's caliber around he could fix it. Cancer is tricky. It can come back. Keeping Jack around is smart to help treat Ben when needed. I wouldn't be surprised if they invite Jack to stay like they did Juliette. They are both doctors that are extremely talented at what they do.

I'm mostly talking out of my butt here, but doesn't cancer have to be malignant to come back? I heard Jack say that they would want to test the tumor to see if it was, in fact, benign or malignant. There's a medical possibility that once the surgery is done, Ben will be completely cured, and I'm almost sure that's the road TPTB are going to take in the aftermath of the surgery.

This line is kinda odd. I think it may just be poorly written. Perhaps it should have been, "If they get away, and Ben dies..." as Ben was prepared to let them go, without really knowing if Jack would complete the surgery. All he had was Jack's word. Plus, are we to believe Ben wouldn't want them to go if he died, but it was ok for one of them to be killed if he lived? Makes no sense...

I agree that this line was supposed to show that Pickett wanted to kill Sawyer. End of story. I'm not sure one needs to read further into it than that. Possibly Pickett actually thinks that what he says is true, but then what that shows is that he doesn't know Ben that well. Because Ben would much rather save his own life!

I agree that this line was supposed to show that Pickett wanted to kill Sawyer. End of story. I'm not sure one needs to read further into it than that. Possibly Pickett actually thinks that what he says is true, but then what that shows is that he doesn't know Ben that well. Because Ben would much rather save his own life!

Yes. We know that Pickett was itching to kill Sawyer anyway, but after Sawyer had beaten him up and escaped there was no way he was NOT going to kill him. So killing Pickett was the only way to stop him.

I don't believe that Kate and Sawyer were important at all, apart from use as leverage to get Jack to operate.

*BUT* I do think that it was important to kill them rather than to allow them to escape - and I think this was what Pickett was saying. After all, at this moment in time the Losties back at beach camp don't know about the existence of the Hydra or Alcatraz or know where it is. Once Kate and Sawyer get back to camp then they know everything and the Others are exposed.

So under normal circumstances, Ben *would* rather die than let them go, to prevent the Others from being discovered.

Except when it comes down to it he wants to live - but given that situation, wouldn't we all?

That's what Pickett said about Sawyer and Kate to Juliett.

Yet Pickett was going to kill Sawyer anyway - and I'm sure that Ben knew this.

So, WHY?? Nothing? Everything??
Consider this:
They (The Others) are all brainwashed to a certain degree (do you think the brainwashing room was made especially for Carl?). You don't question the logics of brainwashed people.

I think Pickett was brainwashed a little too good. I don't think he was a conventional Other. We haven't seen an Other that is as mean as him. Yet anyway.

I think Pickett was brainwashed a little too good. I don't think he was a conventional Other. We haven't seen an Other that is as mean as him. Yet anyway.

Maybe not an Other, but I think that Sayid is just as brutal as Pickett.

Consider his torture of Sawyer, his treatment of 'Henry Gale'. Maybe not (outwardly) as angry as Pickett, but certainly as brutal, and very similar motivation - he's punishing another person for the death of a loved one.

Sawyer and Kate are important - well beyond leverage to get Jack to perform surgery on Ben. This seems clear to me after Danny's line of "Shephard wasn't even on Jacob's list." Jack was brought because Ben wanted him for his own personal reasons. Kate and Sawyer were brought there for other reasons that we aren't clear on yet. Reasons quite important considering the statement "Ben would rather die than let them go."

I took that "Ben would rather die than let them go" = "Screw off and get out of my way." Pickett wanted them dead for his own personal reasons and Juliet was trying to stop him. Pickett didn't give a damn about what Ben wanted. He just wanted to kill Sawyer.


I agree...that was just a total bluff by Pickett. For one thing, there really is no "letting them go". The Others seem to be in total control...they seem to be able to travel over to the other island and kidnap people any old time they want. In fact, Juliet even made a statement that if Alex ran, that they would not let Karl live, and that really scared Alex. Implying that they could go to the other island and pick Karl off quite easily at any time. I think that they are so powerful, that it would just be a mere annoyance to them to recapture Kate and Sawyer, if they really wanted to.

Maybe the others want to do a study on the rehabilitation of convicted fellons. I'm not really sure why they would want Kate and Sawyer.


YES that definitely fits the whole Clockwork Orange thing. A study of convicted felons, or just a study of criminal behavior. Maybe they've brainwashed Kate and Sawyer, and they're going to observe how they act when they return to their island.

I agree...that was just a total bluff by Pickett. For one thing, there really is no "letting them go". The Others seem to be in total control...they seem to be able to travel over to the other island and kidnap people any old time they want. In fact, Juliet even made a statement that if Alex ran, that they would not let Karl live, and that really scared Alex. Implying that they could go to the other island and pick Karl off quite easily at any time. I think that they are so powerful, that it would just be a mere annoyance to them to recapture Kate and Sawyer, if they really wanted to.

I don't think Pickett was bluffing to Juliet at all. In fact I think Juliet was the one bluffing to Pickett. Ben didn't tell Juliet to let them go, she decided this on her own. That makes the most sense. So Juliet was doing the bluffing when she tried to convince Pickett that Ben wanted Kate and Sawyer to go free, but Pickett calls Juliet's bluff by saying, 'ha! there's no way Ben would want that!' Juliet doesn't even argue it. They both know how important Kate and Sawyer really are. And considering the argument was a whole two sentences, it seems clear to me that Pickett was speaking the truth, and Juliet was the one trying to deceive. And when her efforts failed, she has to take it a step further and pop a round or two into Pickett. Pickett wasn't going to kill them, if he wanted to, he would because he certainly could have. He had plenty of chances. He was just making sure that they didn't get away. His allegiance lies with Ben, which at the moment, isn't completely aligned with Juliet. I'm a believer that the Others are not killers, and Pickett was never going to kill Sawyer, only scare him and put on theatrics like they do with everything else. So to me, it seems that Juliet's allegiances aren't with Ben. She's doing her own thing - killing Pickett and letting Kate and Sawyer both go.

Pickett is an angry guy, but not conniving. Juliet is conniving. Ben never told her to let Sawyer and Kate go.

Kate and Sawyer were brought there for other reasons that we aren't clear on yet. Reasons quite important considering the statement "Ben would rather die than let them go."


Actually I don't think that Sawyer and probably Kate, are important to the Others at all. If they are this episode was riddled with plot holes.

We know Ben was awake for several minutes, it's very likely he heard the fight between Juliet and Jack. He probably heard Juliet's order to bring Kate and Sawyer OR if they have to, to kill them. Ben said nothing to stop this. Neither did Tom. Wouldn't Tom and Juliet be in on Kate and Sawyer's supposed importance?

There's proof even before this Sawyer at least was dispensable. Tom said Pickett wanted to kill him (Sawyer). Ben said Pickett would wait. It doesn't look like Pickett was warned to leave Sawyer alive.

Then when Juliet tells Pickett, Ben wants to let Kate and Sawyer go. 'Pickett responds 'Ben would rather die than let them go'. This makes perfect sense with Pickett then trying to kill Sawyer seconds later. :drowsy:

The emphasis wasn't on Kate and Sawyer being so important or that they even needed to be kept alive.

The emphasis was on them not leaving the island, whether they were dead or alive, as long as they didn't leave the island. Why? Remember Ben's agitation about Sayid possibly finding them on Desmond's boat. Maybe Ben just doesn't want Kate leading a rescue party back.

The emphasis was on them not leaving the island, whether they were dead or alive, as long as they didn't leave the island. Why? Remember Ben's agitation about Sayid possibly finding them on Desmond's boat. Maybe Ben just doesn't want Kate leading a rescue party back.

My thoughts exactly. They don't want the Losties to know where they are.

... Tom said Pickett wanted to kill him (Sawyer). Ben said Pickett would wait...

That scene is exactly what I thought of when Danny said "Ben would rather die than let them go..."

I can't seem to decide what the list means or whether people on the list are supposed to be kept alive for some greater purpose, or to be killed or indoctrinated, for me it is just too soon.

But the quote and flashing to that earlier scene started me thinking on two tracks about why they had Danny say that in this episode and Juliet killing him:

Track one: that Danny is a "worker-bee" he is not as "in the know" with Ben, like Tom is, and only gets told certain things. It made me think that the exchange between Tom and Ben was to show us that and to show us that they are manipulating Danny and also barely keeping him in check at the same time, (important to note that it also that made it seem like that at some point it was a given to kill Sawyer eventually too.) The others fervently believe in the importance of their mission, whatever that is, and Danny believes that he must carry out his orders because they are greatly important to that mission - that doesn't mean the orders as he understands them are truly related the real bigger mission he doesn't know about. If that was true, even given that Juliet and Ben are odds often, it seems she is more in the know than Danny too. She also clearly knows that Danny wants to kill Sawyer (though I agree with someone that posted earlier that his hatred of Sawyer didn't add up for me either) So maybe when she killed him it was because she knew there wouldn't be a way to stop him - he's a believer of the lies they use to keep him in line, the tension had reached the point of no return - he wasn't going to be talked down quickly enough and he isn't as important as some of the other - others, so she shot him...

Second track: If Danny's reasons for believing that Ben would rather die were true, why would Danny so fervently believe that Kate and Sawyer returning back to the other island is such an awful thing? I think that could be important, especially if Juliet knew that and shot danny and helped them escape anyway - I think it could be important whether or not Ben gave her the ok to help K&S escape and/or to kill danny if necessary to make that happen.

So, why? Well, the Others seem to have no problem island hopping, so it can't be that they are afraid they will somehow really escape being that they're just going back to the same island they took them from before and so far everyone thats tried to leave has just ended up magically back - so thats seems out...it's not like the losties back home don't know anything about the others, so it's not like K&S are bringing back that much new info and certainly nothing that seems potentially damaging that I can think of: there is another small island, there is another station, the others are still weird, mean and dangerous - not much there...then I thought, well maybe it is because they don't want the losties coming after them, but the losties have already been planning to do that and likely would have eventually - so that seems out too...their leverage with Jack was about to be over anyway, so thats out too...is it just that their orders were to capture and keep them and possibly kill or indoctrinate them or that Danny believed that and Danny simply could not fathom not following those orders...somehow that seems more likely and feels like foreshadowing - maybe hinting that Ben might not be following the big Others orders to the letter either especially when it comes to his own survival or that Ben knows they are so powerful they just don't need to worry about re-capturing K&S since they can at any time again, but didn't share that with Danny.

But that just made think that what I really want to know is why Juliet did help K&S - did Ben tell her to? Somehow I just don't think so. And it seems connected in my mind to the idea that I can't shake the feeling that Ben told Juliette to tape that message telling Jack to kill him for reasons we can't know yet in the first place. Because it seemed like Juliet was pretty sure Jack wouldn't let Ben die no matter what and she supposedly wanted him to die anyway, it just doesn't add up - and that throwing her head in her hands when Ben & Juliet were talking sure didn't seem like it was at all related to K&S and sure didn't seem like good news, like I am going to let you go home news...so when did Juliet really betray the Others, if she ever has, because that feels like one of those game changing moments...man it makes my head spin. If it was at that moment - shooting Danny and letting K&S escape that could be very interesting indeed - how I love this show...and that goes right back to track 2 - why would letting K&S go back to the island be such a bad thing...

Actually I don't think that Sawyer and probably Kate, are important to the Others at all. If they are this episode was riddled with plot holes.

We know Ben was awake for several minutes, it's very likely he heard the fight between Juliet and Jack. He probably heard Juliet's order to bring Kate and Sawyer OR if they have to, to kill them. Ben said nothing to stop this. Neither did Tom. Wouldn't Tom and Juliet be in on Kate and Sawyer's supposed importance?

Okay let's break this down: Juliet gives orders to kill Sawyer and Kate if need be. Ben hears this talking. Ben wakes up and talks privately to Juliet. Immediately following, Juliet says that she is going to help Jack's friends get away. Hmmm... You really think "Ben said nothing to stop this?" The blatant fact that Juliet changes her mind immediately after speaking with Ben tells me that he, in fact, did say something to stop their murders.

There's proof even before this Sawyer at least was dispensable. Tom said Pickett wanted to kill him (Sawyer). Ben said Pickett would wait. It doesn't look like Pickett was warned to leave Sawyer alive.Actually, there's better "proof" that Sawyer was not dispensable. He's still alive.

And the fact that Ben said Pickett could wait just means that they needed Sawyer.

Then when Juliet tells Pickett, Ben wants to let Kate and Sawyer go. 'Pickett responds 'Ben would rather die than let them go'. This makes perfect sense with Pickett then trying to kill Sawyer seconds later. :drowsy: It makes perfect sense that Pickett went after Kate and Sawyer... to make sure that they didn't escape. As we saw, he did not kill either of them, nor did he try. If he wanted to shoot and kill Sawyer, he could have. He certainly was there, unnoticed, with a gun.
It seemed to me like he was there to stop their escape and return them to the cages.

The emphasis wasn't on Kate and Sawyer being so important or that they even needed to be kept alive.

The emphasis was on them not leaving the island, whether they were dead or alive, as long as they didn't leave the island. Why? Remember Ben's agitation about Sayid possibly finding them on Desmond's boat. Maybe Ben just doesn't want Kate leading a rescue party back.I completely agree that Ben wouldn't want them to get away because of the fact of their knowledge of the Others. However, they brought them there. You think it was important to bring them there so that Ben could say, "Hey, we're bringing you here and keeping you here so that you don't escape and come back here!" No. They had to bring them there because they were important for other reasons. Otherwise.... they would have just left them back on their island...

Something tells me that when there is bloodshed inside one's own group (Juliet killing Pickett) that the people directly causing these actions (Kate and Sawyer) are quite decidedly important.

I have a feeling that we will find out about the List and so on in due time...this is something we just have to wait for. Easter eggs are always more fun to discuss and I don't consider this an easter egg at all.
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This is to Kevns post...I think that Pickett was still very angry about his wife's death and wanted to take his anger out on one of the captives. He saw this as thier fault and he thought that if he killed Sawyer he would be punishing the beach dwellers and the person that shot his wife...

This is to Kevns post...I think that Pickett was still very angry about his wife's death and wanted to take his anger out on one of the captives. He saw this as thier fault and he thought that if he killed Sawyer he would be punishing the beach dwellers and the person that shot his wife...



Pickett wanted to kill Sawyer, I agree completely. However..... Pickett, did NOT kill Sawyer.

Pickett wanting to kill him does not prove that Sawyer isn't important.

I believe that Ben, and possibly Juliet, are doing an elaborate con here. His about-face with wanting to let them go is *highly* suspicious . . .

Perhaps Kate was brainwashed during her "missing" time between the breakfast with Ben and her move to the cage with Sawyer. It was unlear how long she was "missing", but she seemed very fuzzy about what had gone down. She was either reluctant to talk about it, OR couldn't (repressed by brainwashing?).

Perhaps Kate is a "sleeper agent" who will somehow do Ben's bidding once back at the beach. Perhaps Ben *wants* her to return to the Losties, and made it look like he was "giving in" to Jack. Not sure if Juliet was in on the joke, or if he is conning her, too, though.

We've seen Ben get Michael to do his bidding. We've seen him con Sawyer with the whole heart-rate-bomb thing. Is this such a stretch that he is conning them again?

As far as the anger that Pickett feels towards Sawyer, do we know if Pickett knew Sawyer off the Island? Maybe Sawyer robbed or cheated a friend or relative of Pickett and the friend or relative gave a picture of Sawyer to Pickett. Then Pickett gets a job with DHARMA and goes to the Island. Pickett is at peace until the man he has wanted to kill for years shows up on his Island??

Pickett wanted to kill Sawyer, I agree completely. However..... Pickett, did NOT kill Sawyer.

Pickett wanting to kill him does not prove that Sawyer isn't important.

Im pretty sure he was about to shoot Sawyer just as Juliet shot him. How important could he have been...

Danny seemed to believe it was unthinkable that Ben would allow him to leave, for Hydra security or whatever reason, but apparently it wasnt because he was needed alive...

I always wondered why Danny hated Sawyer so bad, I know some people think it was to do with his wife, but he already was clearly hating Sawyer before that had happened. All I could guess was that he knew Sawyer had shot the tracker in the forest in LTDA, and this really pissed him off?

But now there's more to this story, with Karl being certain if they returned to Hydra, they'd be killed. Hydra is still 'sacred' ground, it seems.

I'm pretty sure that Danny was just pissed off at the world in general, and Sawyer just happened to be a convenient target. If it hadn't been him it would have been somebody else.

Perhaps Kate was brainwashed during her "missing" time between the breakfast with Ben and her move to the cage with Sawyer. It was unlear how long she was "missing", but she seemed very fuzzy about what had gone down. She was either reluctant to talk about it, OR couldn't (repressed by brainwashing?).

Perhaps Kate is a "sleeper agent" who will somehow do Ben's bidding once back at the beach. Perhaps Ben *wants* her to return to the Losties, and made it look like he was "giving in" to Jack. Not sure if Juliet was in on the joke, or if he is conning her, too, though.

I agree with the first paragraph here. Those marks on her wrists may have been made from restraints in the chair in Room 23 rather than the cuffs we might presume were responsible.

A sleeper? *nods* I've been expecting one. I thought Kate an assassin placed on the Island to get to 'Him'. John crossed my mind as a Sleeper candidate too - and not entirely based on his choice of drive or Woody Allen movies either ;) - military record first expunged... although his spymaster would need a replacement after John's disablement.

Kate then then?

Gosh. If Kate were rumbled, then Ben would know more than she did herself! lol.

Okay I'm done speculation now. :lipsseal: :)

WHAT IF...

Danny hated Sawyer, because they knew of his disavowal of his daughter, and with these guys' obsession with fertility, Danny thought a guy who could bear a child, then calously walk away...(bank trust acct notwithstanding)...must be scum?:cool:

Watch EMFH again...Danny's hate for Sawyer really only became obvious at the same time that Sawyer's f/b revealed this daughter news...

Watch EMFH again...Danny's hate for Sawyer really only became obvious at the same time that Sawyer's f/b revealed this daughter news...

I'm not so sure about that.
Danny had a good go at him at Pala Ferry in LTDA.

well, he did just shoot the guy tailing them...