Don't see this being discussed here--maybe it's being discussed in a Jate or Skate shipper thread.

I was rather startled when Damon said that "Jack is the man Kate should be with," but she's also attracted to Sawyer, although he "doesn't treat her right."

So the polar-bear-cage lovin' wasn't real? How has Sawyer mistreated Kate lately? Is Kate still destined to end up with Jack? WHY? They have absolutely nothing in common.

I know different viewers see different things and interpret them differently, and I know TPTB were planning to play around with the triangle practically 'til the end of time, but--this seems like rather a bald-faced statement rather than the usual tease.

I'd like to hear what others thought!

I like it because they put emphasis on the fact that Kate thought Sawyer was about to die.

I had the same thought about how they made such a bold statement! But then, I changed my mind, and I think they just meant "should be with" as in. . . he's the "good guy", and someone's mother would want their daughter to be with him. I don't think they were referring to her true feelings, or who she felt a bigger connection with, or anything like that; they wouldn't givea way that much info without playing with us a little more!

I always thought that Jack and Kate were the pairing of the show, that they where intended to be where their journies ended. I think that is what they are saying, that at the end of the day it is going to come down to this because that is the emotional basis of the show. The first Jack/Kate scene was the first emotional connection with the audience, and it is probably going to come back to that.
That's just the way television works.

LostMyMarbles ; I think the same here ,J and K have absolutely NOTHING in common, except the fact that both are stranded on a mysterious island.;)
TPTB are trying to keep J and K shippers-watching.JMO .

This may be a controversial statement here, but Kate and Sawyer together is kinda like two Alcoholics together...in the long run (con) they would bring out the worst in each other, whereas, I think that Kate and Jack would tend to bring out the best in each other.

That's not to say I don't enjoy the Kate & Sawyer scenes, it's so fun to go for the guy who has the edge of darkenss about him and will let you get away with your own indiscretions.

Eventually, Kate will have to quit getting into trouble and running from her past. ;)

This may be a controversial statement here, but Kate and Sawyer together is kinda like two Alcoholics together...in the long run (con) they would bring out the worst in each other, whereas, I think that Kate and Jack would tend to bring out the best in each other.

That's not to say I don't enjoy the Kate & Sawyer scenes, it's so fun to go for the guy who has the edge of darkenss about him and will let you get away with your own indiscretions.

Eventually, Kate will have to quit getting into trouble and running from her past. ;)

you are 100% correct... this is what the writers are telling us.

Jack and Kate are the story book ending we will see.

It never ends.

I always felt that what TPTB said during the show was true and rather obvious (to me): Jack is the kind of guy Kate should be with, but as usual the woman also has a thing for the "bad boy." There's nothing wrong with that, and it doesn't mean there are no real feelings involved in a Kate and Sawyer pairing...to me, it's just like if Kate were your own daughter or a close friend of yours; you'd probably think Jack would be better for her, but you know she's going to be tempted by Sawyer.

Also, I can't believe I'm posting anything remotely shippy :eek2:

I know they say Kate should be with Jack, but it seems like they put more effort into keeping her with Sawyer. It's not like she can avoid him on such a small island.

I also was a little taken aback by that statement. Don't get me wrong, I'm definitely thrilled K is with S (for now :frown:) , but this show is about nothing if not about personal growth, right? Like they said on the Survivor Guide or whatever it was called last night, on the island the characters are running into the same situations that got them in trouble off the island. Someone once said to me, you will keep on running into the same problems, disguised with different names and places, until you learn the lesson you were meant to learn.

I agree with you Dezdemona, Kate needs to stop running away from her past. I also think they gave something away last night with that statement. I think Kate, like all the Lostaways, needs to grow emotionally and part of that growth will be allowing herself to be with someone who is also willing to grow. Hopefully, Sawyer loves Kate enough to take a leap of faith and learn to like himself. Josh Holloway has said Sawyer's gonna be screwing up a lot with Kate. The triangle is by no means over.

I always felt that what TPTB said during the show was true and rather obvious (to me): Jack is the kind of guy Kate should be with, but as usual the woman also has a thing for the "bad boy." There's nothing wrong with that, and it doesn't mean there are no real feelings involved in a Kate and Sawyer pairing...to me, it's just like if Kate were your own daughter or a close friend of yours; you'd probably think Jack would be better for her, but you know she's going to be tempted by Sawyer.

Also, I can't believe I'm posting anything remotely shippy :eek2:

EVERYBODY'S mom wants her to marry the doctor. Even my mom had those kinds of dreams for me. Fat chance.

But what if you were Jack's mother? Kate isn't exactly who you'd have in mind for your brilliant neurosurgeon, is she?

I don't know why I'm even jumping in again here . . . this triangle has been discussed to death, and we'll never see it the same way. I was just surprised that Damon seemed to side with the Jaters in such a bald way.

I see what you're saying. I think the reason I overlooked that is because I was focusing so much on her choice between the two guys instead of how suitable she was for them.

Well, it's important to remember this is supposed to catch people up who haven't been watching. I think it's a very general kind of overview. So, Damon isn't going to lie to new viewers, but we should take all that they say with a grain of salt.
As for it never ending (the love triangle), I think the triangle is Damon and Carlton's favorite toy. :10:

I think the triangle is Damon and Carlton's favorite toy. :10:
:rotflmao2:

LostMyMarbles ; I think the same here ,J and K have absolutely NOTHING in common, except the fact that both are stranded on a mysterious island.;)
TPTB are trying to keep J and K shippers-watching.JMO .

Yes, I agree with you sk8.

Jack is driven by his need to have the control. Kate is a free spirit who cant be corralled in. A good couple they do NOT make.

Think Sawyer is a much better fit for her. He gets her. He loves her. They have passion and chemistry.

And I think that they are dragging out this triangle just to keep both ships happy.

you are 100% correct... this is what the writers are telling us.

Jack and Kate are the story book ending we will see.

And who wants a fairy tale...that's no fun...love is messy, it's difficult, it makes things very very hard, and it's absolutely perfect.

Fairy tales are just that...fairy tales.

Yes, I agree with you sk8.

Jack is driven by his need to have the control. Kate is a free spirit who cant be corralled in. A good couple they do NOT make.

Think Sawyer is a much better fit for her. He gets her. He loves her. They have passion and chemistry.

And I think that they are dragging out this triangle just to keep both ships happy.

You got it right GS, Jack has this idea that he had to fix everything and everybody, and having Kate "on his arm" would elevate her to match his wonderfully heroic side and show how the heroic doctor changed the life of the wayward girl from the wrong side of the tracks. Can't you just see Kate tryin' to fit into the role of "doctor's wife". Talk about "I don't do taco night!!"

But, on the other hand, Sawyer is Kate's equal. Both of them come with a lot of baggage that they can work through together. She loves him and he loves her. There is a bond between them that cannot be broken. They are kindred spirits. Sawyer does not need to elevate Kate with some lofty notion of who he thinks she should be. All he wants to do is love her, and all she wants to be is loved and accepted.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist, or even an heroic doctor to see who she belongs with.

Every guy my friends and family felt I should be with was wrong for me. I can see why Kate feels she should be with the good doctor. On the surface he's the sensible choice and (barring his yelling fits at her) would try to take care of her and treat her like a princess. To the point of being overbearing IMO. And since when did the heart ever listen to the head when it came to matters of being in love?

And Kate is not doctor's wife material. She doesn't do taco night. Can you imagine Jack being impressed by her threatening to kneecap someone and it not being a joke? Jack does not understand the real Kate. The tough ruthless Kate we saw last night. I remain unconvinced that he would ever accept or appreciate that very real and dark side of her. And I don't believe she has to completely strip away that side of her to become a better person.

Kate and Jack will always have a bond, but I never really found it particularly romantic or sexual in nature. I think it's possible for her to love Jack platonically, but be in love with Sawyer. Again, just my opinion.

The walkie talkie scene was a perfect story book ending to a story book romance that never quite got a chance to sail. And it paved the way for a new chapter of a new story book romance to begin. That of Jack and Juliet. :)

I think for new viewers the Lost Survivor was well done.

I think there was lots to chew on for long-time fans, and a way for new fans to get "sortof" up to speed on the show. There were some scenes in there I didn't expect to see. The flash of Kate's torn up wrists. The patient that Jack's Dad killed in the first season. Lots of Christian (which makes me very happy)

As to the question that this thread asks, does Kate belong with Jack? My answer to that is a resounding yes. Let's see, what were Damon's actual words? Kate loves Jack. Kate is drawn to Sawyer. Both Damon and Carlton indicated that at different times Kate is more emotionally attached to one man or the other. They weren't talking about simple friendship with either man. So, I'm speculating we will see the triangle for the rest of the series. In some shape or form. Like YellowTang said above, it's Darlton's favorite toy. :)

Now Darlton also talked about redemption and that every person who is on the island was somehow personally LOST, and they need to become found. Should Kate seek to "find herself" with a man like the type from her past? A con-man, tiger-don't-change-his-stripes, abuser of women (via his cons) kind of guy? I hope not. I hope she grows all on her own, and finds that she deserves the best man she can find. And I hope that means Jack. I believe it will be.

Again, I thought the show was a good lead-in to the eppy.

Peace!!

Kate should not be seeking to find herself with any man. Period. I agree she should grow and change on her own terms and for herself not to gain absolution or forgiveness and therefore acceptance from an external source.

Is Sawyer genuinely in love with Kate? I believe he is. Wholeheartedly. She's not one of his past cons, obviously. She's the woman he was willing to give up his very life for. So...yes, he has a terrible past and has things to be ashamed of. But so does Kate.

And how does this relate to the situation now we we have seen him going out on a limb quite literally to protect her or take a bullet for her, and she is doing the same for him? Doesn't Sawyer also deserve a second chance to grow into someone better than who or what he was before? Whether he will make his own changes though remains to be seen and to play out.

I don't need Darlton to spell out whether Kate loves Sawyer for me. It's in the show. It's canon. She's declared it, and she's reaffirmed it in many ways, proved not just in her words but in her actions. And she's discussed her feelings in actual text. As has Sawyer. When have Jack and Kate ever articulated anything close to the love confessions we've had this season?

I don't need everything spelled out to me outside of the show for me to get the message loud and clear in the show. :)

It never ends.

Seriously! Its like the song that never ends, :yawn: it goes on and on and on.

Seriously! Its like the song that never ends, :yawn: it goes on and on and on.


There are some pretty good singers on both sides. ;)

Peace!!

Now Darlton also talked about redemption and that every person who is on the island was somehow personally LOST, and they need to become found. Should Kate seek to "find herself" with a man like the type from her past? A con-man, tiger-don't-change-his-stripes, abuser of women (via his cons) kind of guy? I hope not. I hope she grows all on her own, and finds that she deserves the best man she can find. And I hope that means Jack. I believe it will be.

Again, I thought the show was a good lead-in to the eppy.

Peace!!

I think the type of men from Kate's past were like Jack, actually. We can't consider Wayne as a man in her past. She knew him as her step-father. She was never even remotely drawn to him of all people. Tom the doctor and Kevin the police man fit the professional, straight-laced type. She did taco night because she thought that's what love required. But it didn't work. She lied and ran.

In her past, has she ever been drawn to anyone else besides these two men?

Kate should not be seeking to find herself with any man. Period. I agree she should grow and change on her own terms and for herself not to gain absolution or forgiveness and therefore acceptance from an external source.

Is Sawyer genuinely in love with Kate? I believe he is. Wholeheartedly. She's not one of his past cons, obviously. She's the woman he was willing to give up his very life for. So...yes, he has a terrible past and has things to be ashamed of. But so does Kate.

And how does this relate to the situation now we we have seen him going out on a limb quite literally to protect her or take a bullet for her, and she is doing the same for him? Doesn't Sawyer also deserve a second chance to grow into someone better than who or what he was before? Whether he will make his own changes though remains to be seen and to play out.

I don't need Darlton to spell out whether Kate loves Sawyer for me. It's in the show. It's canon. She's declared it, and she's reaffirmed it in many ways, proved not just in her words but in her actions. And she's discussed her feelings in actual text. As has Sawyer. When have Jack and Kate ever articulated anything close to the love confessions we've had this season?

I don't need everything spelled out to me outside of the show for me to get the message loud and clear in the show. :)


From reading these posts, it would appear that Darlton once again have fueled the on-going debate re: the said triangle. Maybe we will finally get the opportunity to witness Jack and Kate articulate their feelings for each other sometime this season. Afterall, they were interrupted by Michael's appearance in TFTR last season and that seems to be the crux of the matter. They all need to resolve their karma on the island and each one of them will deal with that in their own way. No one can do it for them. And, if in the end, Kate realizes she truly does not need a man in her life, hopefully, she will also articulate that to both men. They all have different degrees of difficulty and not all will be making the same progress.

I know I will get skewered by saying this, but it didn't surprise me when Damon stated that Kate loves Jack. For me, this goes back to the pilot episode when they first meet. All I am going to say is that everyone of the Losties have made bad choices, like us, and hopefully they will come off the island with a better understanding of their inner self.

Okay, I am going away now.

Kate should not be seeking to find herself with any man. Period. I agree she should grow and change on her own terms and for herself not to gain absolution or forgiveness and therefore acceptance from an external source.
:)

Zoriah, I think I understand what you mean and i agree in part, but I don't think we can truly grow outside of significant relationships with others, whether those relationships are romantic, platonic or deep friendship. Deep and unconditional love is simply transformative -- it evokes response precisely because it is given and does not demand change.

In my experience when there is real guilt, real forgiveness almost always involves others (and asking for forgiveness or choosing to forgive as the case may be) Our selfish or wrong choices, almost by definition, always involve others. I don't think there is a black and white answer (nor do I think you're implying that) because human relationships are fraught with nuance in every respect.

That statement without additional context is what I disagree with, if that makes sense... i.e. the part about "external source" because I also believe in forgiveness as a part of our need in relationship to God and it doesn't get any more external than that(although I know there are many who will disagree, to each his own :) )

Maybe we will finally get the opportunity to witness Jack and Kate articulate their feelings for each other sometime this season.

:105: :rotflmao2: :105:

There will be a ferry from Craphole Island to LA loooong before any of the lostaways actually "articulate" anything to anyone. Articulating simply isn't done on Lost. :biggrin:

As for it never ending (the love triangle), I think the triangle is Damon and Carlton's favorite toy. :10:

Like a cat with a dead mouse... :biggrin:



I guess I think about it in terms of when they leave the Island. When they get "rescued". What scenerio is going to "work"?

Kate - Murderer
Sawyer - Murderer
Jack - Not. ( - yet that we know of! Maybe some questionable ethical issues - might get his Medical License pulled)

So, it either means they are NOT ever getting rescued (by choice or by death) or Jack's gonna have a hard time at the Hospital Gala explaining "my wife is doing time at Attaca for murder".

you are 100% correct... this is what the writers are telling us.

Jack and Kate are the story book ending we will see.


I wonder how many viewers they will have left by the time that this plays out?
100%
LostMyMarbles ; I think the same here ,J and K have absolutely NOTHING in common, except the fact that both are stranded on a mysterious island.;)
TPTB are trying to keep J and K shippers-watching.JMO .

Them and the current president of ABC perhaps? Afterall, isn't that man a big time Jack fan.

From reading these posts, it would appear that Darlton once again have fueled the on-going debate re: the said triangle. Maybe we will finally get the opportunity to witness Jack and Kate articulate their feelings for each other sometime this season. Afterall, they were interrupted by Michael's appearance in TFTR last season and that seems to be the crux of the matter. They all need to resolve their karma on the island and each one of them will deal with that in their own way. No one can do it for them. And, if in the end, Kate realizes she truly does not need a man in her life, hopefully, she will also articulate that to both men. They all have different degrees of difficulty and not all will be making the same progress.

I know I will get skewered by saying this, but it didn't surprise me when Damon stated that Kate loves Jack. For me, this goes back to the pilot episode when they first meet. All I am going to say is that everyone of the Losties have made bad choices, like us, and hopefully they will come off the island with a better understanding of their inner self.

Okay, I am going away now.

I won't skewer you haha :) It's ok, that's what I believe too. I've seen taht from the beginning of the show also. I never even thought of Sawyer and Kate as a possible couple until I found this website *shrugs*
:105: :rotflmao2: :105:

There will be a ferry from Craphole Island to LA loooong before any of the lostaways actually "articulate" anything to anyone. Articulating simply isn't done on Lost. :biggrin:

LOL. ahahaha totally accurate...

I wonder how many viewers they will have left by the time that this plays out?
100%


Them and the current president of ABC perhaps? Afterall, isn't that man a big time Jack fan.

Ok..............

And who wants a fairy tale...that's no fun...love is messy, it's difficult, it makes things very very hard, and it's absolutely perfect.

Fairy tales are just that...fairy tales.

You took words from my mouth, could not agree more!



You got it right GS, Jack has this idea that he had to fix everything and everybody, and having Kate "on his arm" would elevate her to match his wonderfully heroic side and show how the heroic doctor changed the life of the wayward girl from the wrong side of the tracks. Can't you just see Kate tryin' to fit into the role of "doctor's wife". Talk about "I don't do taco night!!"

I think the flashback in I Do was great example of why kate and jack would never work. She did love kevin and tried to be with a man she "should" be with, but c´mon kate in those flashbacks, that was not kate! Desperate housewife outfit is not her style and it didn´t fit her at all. And she ran away from it.

But, on the other hand, Sawyer is Kate's equal. Both of them come with a lot of baggage that they can work through together. She loves him and he loves her. There is a bond between them that cannot be broken. They are kindred spirits. Sawyer does not need to elevate Kate with some lofty notion of who he thinks she should be. All he wants to do is love her, and all she wants to be is loved and accepted.

Ans thats all a woman need :hypocrit: Love love love, and from a guy like sawyer, eeks.. lol

It doesn't take a rocket scientist, or even an heroic doctor to see who she belongs with.

icam again!

Every guy my friends and family felt I should be with was wrong for me. I can see why Kate feels she should be with the good doctor. On the surface he's the sensible choice and (barring his yelling fits at her) would try to take care of her and treat her like a princess. To the point of being overbearing IMO. And since when did the heart ever listen to the head when it came to matters of being in love?

Never, and thats not the way to deal love life.

And Kate is not doctor's wife material. She doesn't do taco night. Can you imagine Jack being impressed by her threatening to kneecap someone and it not being a joke? Jack does not understand the real Kate. The tough ruthless Kate we saw last night. I remain unconvinced that he would ever accept or appreciate that very real and dark side of her. And I don't believe she has to completely strip away that side of her to become a better person.

Nope. Jack will always want to change her to fit better his lifestyle and kate is not the kind to sit nicely beside her husband.

Kate and Jack will always have a bond, but I never really found it particularly romantic or sexual in nature. I think it's possible for her to love Jack platonically, but be in love with Sawyer. Again, just my opinion.

And mine :) Icam!

The walkie talkie scene was a perfect story book ending to a story book romance that never quite got a chance to sail. And it paved the way for a new chapter of a new story book romance to begin. That of Jack and Juliet. :)

I thought about it as the endig as well. Ended like it begun, with the story. Sure, kate will fee quilty over leaving a friend behind, who wouldn´t. And relatioship with sawyer ain´t the easiest road I´m sure but that doesn´t make jack any better choise for her. She never took the easy way in life anyway. And this is not just the skater in me talking. I´ve seen what everyone else has seen. Sure there are always different ways to look at things but not everything has to involve a grand mystery and theory. kate loves sawyer and he loves her back, they said it, they did it, they´re it!

I guess I think about it in terms of when they leave the Island. When they get "rescued". What scenerio is going to "work"?

Kate - Murderer
Sawyer - Murderer
Jack - Not. ( - yet that we know of! Maybe some questionable ethical issues - might get his Medical License pulled)

So, it either means they are NOT ever getting rescued (by choice or by death) or Jack's gonna have a hard time at the Hospital Gala explaining "my wife is doing time at Attaca for murder".

:laughing: I liked it, that's what I often think! If they get rescued and poor Kate is arrested, it will be no difference who she is with, Jack or Sawyer! And if she starts running from the law again, Sawyer can be really helpful to her..:rolleyes: Just kidding, I root for Jack.

You know, I have been thinking a lot about this and I think that the final outcome of the triangle will probably boil down to which role Kate feels the most comfortable filling her her love life.

In college, some of the guys I hung out with had a really crude, yet probably very accurate way of describing how to treat the women in their lives in order to keep them interested. They would say "if she is trash, treat her like a princess; if she is a princess, treat her like trash." Not that I think either Jack or Sawyer treats Kate like trash, but in some ways this still relates to this triangle. It seems to me that 90% of the time Kate has to be the one to chase after Jack with their relationship. And in her relationship with Sawyer, I think that he is usually the one who is chasing after her. So I think that it all really comes down to whether or not Kate prefers the role of being the pursuer or the pursued (the trash or the princess). Does she want to be the one up on the pedistal or the one down below looking up at it with admiration? I think that everyone of us knows the role that we personally would be the most comfortable fullfilling, but it is a personal choice--one that Kate must determine for herself (as the writers would have her do).

Anyway in this context, I think that it is easy to see how Sawyer might compare to the men in Kate's past. While most of them may have been on a more moral high ground like Jack, they also tended to treat Kate like a princess more like Sawyer.


just my 2 cents

Anyway in this context, I think that it is easy to see how Sawyer might compare to the men in Kate's past. While most of them may have been on a more moral high ground like Jack, they also tended to treat Kate like a princess more like Sawyer.

Sawyer treats Kate like a princess? :huh: :eek2: I can tell you right now if I were with a guy like Sawyer and he treated me the way he treats Kate, I'd leave.

So when Sawyer is making lewd comments, forcing kisses, outing her in front of the entire camp, questioning the condition of her loins in regards to Jack and using her to get what he wants he's treating her like a princess? Man, I'd hate to see his trash treatment.

When Jack treats her like a princess, tries to protect her, tries to keep her safe, tries to treat her the way a gentleman treats a lady he's accused of being condescending and chauvinistic. Jack's done his fair share of pursuing and flirting, he just not a pig about it.

I would agree that Kate has most likely used her sex appeal to get what she wants or needs from men and that she has not been able to use that with Jack.

"Are you checking me out?"

"Trust me, if I were checking you out you'd know it."

(Disappointed Kate face)

"If I didn't know any better Jack, I'd say you're worried about me."

"If I didn't know any better Kate, I'd say you have a hard time staying in one place for very long."

(Disappointed Kate face)

She doesn't quite know how to handle a man that doesn't want to be around her because he wants to jump her bones so in that regard I would guess Sawyer is like most of the men Kate has known.

I understand what you mean lostnthesoutheast.
100%




So when Sawyer is making lewd comments, forcing kisses, outing her in front of the entire camp, questioning the condition of her loins in regards to Jack and using her to get what he wants he's treating her like a princess? Man, I'd hate to see his trash treatment.

When Jack treats her like a princess, tries to protect her, tries to keep her safe, tries to treat her the way a gentleman treats a lady he's accused of being condescending and chauvinistic. Jack's done his fair share of pursuing and flirting, he just not a pig about it.

And Sawyer has never yelled at her or given her the cold shoulder. He doesn't impune her when she thinks she should go along with the rest if danger might be involved.

And what you think are lewd comments - she likes them.

And Sawyer has never yelled at her or given her the cold shoulder. He doesn't impune her when she thinks she should go along with the rest if danger might be involved.

And what you think are lewd comments - she likes them.

No Sawyer just grabs her and manhandles her.

Kate likes his comments so much she replies with:

"You try to be a pig or does it just come natural?" OR

"(Sarcastic) You sure know how to make a girl feel special."

The last one I think she really was annoyed. The rest was sarcasm or tounge-in-cheek.

He's the man she fell in love with.

.

No Sawyer just grabs her and manhandles her.

Kate likes his comments so much she replies with:

"You try to be a pig or does it just come natural?" OR

"(Sarcastic) You sure know how to make a girl feel special."
Don't forget when she caught Sawyer staring at her as opposed to her comment when Jack was.

"Stop staring at my ***" to Sawyer in annoyed tone

"Are you checking me out?" to Jack in flirtacious tone

She seems to expect pig headed stuff when it comes to Sawyer.

Don't forget when she caught Sawyer staring at her as opposed to her comment when Jack was.

"Stop staring at my ***" to Sawyer in annoyed tone

"Are you checking me out?" to Jack in flirtacious tone

She seems to expect pig headed stuff when it comes to Sawyer.

you say potato . . .

Sawyer treats Kate like a princess? :huh: :eek2: I can tell you right now if I were with a guy like Sawyer and he treated me the way he treats Kate, I'd leave.

I've been with a guy a no. of years ago that now reminds me of Jack - and I have to say that because of that experience I realise now that he never loved me & although I thought so at the time, I guess I didn't really love him. It certainly wasn't or isn't the type of love I want or need from a partner. This makes me so much more aware of men like Sawyer is with Kate i.e. the ones that I see everyday with their wives & girlfriends and treat them as if they'd do anything for them & that they'd die for them if it ever came to that and in return, I have heard those wives & girlfriends say that they don't know what they'd do without them. Even when these couples argue, as all couples do at times, they don't lose sight of the bigger picture. They know exactly what they mean to one another. These couples to me really just 'fit' together.

I'll never be able to believe that Kate belongs with Jack because of my experience. I think there has to be someone that is for his character, just like there is someone for all or most of us in this world, but Kate's character doesn't fit with Jack. They don't gel together in any way that really matters. Jack may love Kate to a degree and Kate may love Jack to a degree, but it isn't the type of love that can withstand time.

Jack may love Kate to a degree and Kate may love Jack to a degree, but it isn't the type of love that can withstand time.
But Sawyer and Kate's "love" is? Two criminals? :o I'm sorry, but I'm having a hard time believing Kate and Sawyer's relationship would be able to withstand a month let alone time.


BTW, I'm not trying to be mean, it's just really what I feel. I hope you don't take offense to it. :)

Oh, I don't take any offense to it at all. I understand that we all think differently on the subject. I just don't understand how Kate & Jack type love can be seen to be a potentially real longlasting love in the way Sawyer & Kate could be. Of course, it is up to TPTB whether they think the same thing or not... that remains to be seen.

As for Sawyer & Kate being two 'criminals' - what has that to do with loving & belonging with one another? They certainly make more sense as a pair if you think of it that way, than a criminal & a generally law-abiding doctor - in the real world anyway they would.

None of the characters on this show appear to be faultless - if the idea of this island being there to redeem their characters in some way, then I would think that it shouldn't matter what their characters were to begin with. However, for me it still wouldn't make Jack & Kate an ideal pairing, because they never have convinced me that their love is the real, head-over-heels type of love that they have for each other. Whereas, Kate & Sawyer have.

But Sawyer and Kate's "love" is? Two criminals? :o I'm sorry, but I'm having a hard time believing Kate and Sawyer's relationship would be able to withstand a month let alone time.


BTW, I'm not trying to be mean, it's just really what I feel. I hope you don't take offense to it. :)

Two criminals have a lot more in common than a (usually failing) hero & a criminal. Besides Sawyer & Kate can read each other, they know when the other is telling the truth etc, just think about ep 3.04 EMFH, the scene when Kate climbed out of her cage etc. And please don't pull TLC (ep 2.13) on me, they've moved on since then.

It did shock me when Damon said that Jack was the man she genuinly loved, i think I actually did something like this :surprise: *WTF?!*
And I tried to convince myself that he meant from season 1 since the clips were from then.
Also, as for kate's reactions to Sawyer's comments, it does depend on the single viewer's interpretation to a certain extent, but I think she enjoys them, she has fun with Sawyer (among other things :naughty: ) and all she can say to Jack (with regards to fun) is "Fun's not bad, you should try it sometime".

Anyway, yeah I don't mean to offend either :biggrin:

Originally Posted by flyer61055 View Post
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No Sawyer just grabs her and manhandles her.

Kate likes his comments so much she replies with:

"You try to be a pig or does it just come natural?" OR

"(Sarcastic) You sure know how to make a girl feel special."

Don't forget when she caught Sawyer staring at her as opposed to her comment when Jack was.

"Stop staring at my ***" to Sawyer in annoyed tone

"Are you checking me out?" to Jack in flirtacious tone

She seems to expect pig headed stuff when it comes to Sawyer.

At least he WAS checking her out. He makes it known finds her attractive and distractingly so.

Kate reminds me so much of Princes Leia - she's so disparaging of Han in the first two movies, and with good reason because of his self-professed mercenary ways:

Princess Leia: If money is all you love, then that's what you'll receive.

Princess Leia: Why you stuck up, half-witted scruffy looking nerfherder!

Han Solo: Afraid I was gonna leave without giving you a goodbye kiss?
Princess Leia: I'd just as soon kiss a Wookiee.
Han Solo: I can arrange that. You could use a good kiss.

Princess Leia: Let go.
Han Solo: Shh.
Princess Leia: Let go, please.
Han Solo: Don't get excited.
Princess Leia: Captain, being held by you isn't quite enough to get me excited.
Han Solo: Sorry sweetheart. I haven't got time for anything else.

Han Solo: That's a good story. I think you just can't bear to let a gorgeous guy like me out of your sight.
Princess Leia: I don't know where you get your delusions, laser brain.

Sound familiar? Ever heard of the saying 'Methinks the lady doth protest too much?'. It's another way of saying the person is in denial of their strong passionate romantic feelings for someone.

These kinds of combative romantic male-female dynamics have been written about in literature and featured on screen since...forever.

Beatrice and Benedick? Katherine and Petruchio? Scarlett and Rhett? Cleopatra and Marc Antony.

These relationships had moments where they hated each other, or insults and even furniture were thrown about. They sometimes hurt each other with their cutting remarks or selfish actions and yet, noone can deny they were also some of the greatest romantic couples ever portrayed. :biggrin:

I feel you, MidnightSawyerfan. I have long been married to a work-aholic-Jack type and there are many, many times that I wish he was a little more interested in me and a little less interested in all of his assumed responsibilties.

While some people may think that Sawyer's comments are lewd, at least he is willing to put forth the effort to let her know that he finds her very attractive and that he is indeed interested in her. Sawyer seems to me to always be aspiring to deserve Kate's love. With Jack, it is Kate that has to work hard in order to feel worthy. Who is to say which scenerio she prefers. Perhaps she thinks that being with Jack will make her feel like (and therefore act like) a better person. Or maybe she enjoys being with Sawyer and being appreciated for the person she already is. It all boils down to Kate's sence of self worth and what she needs in order to be fullfilled.

Clearly we all have our own reasons for preferring one man over the other. But, lets not forget that these are all very personal reasons. Kate will also have her own reasons and whether we like it or not, none of us can say for certain what the ulimate outcome of this triangle will be. Both men are very attractive and have a lot of good qualities. Maybe Kate isn't actually worthy of either of them......remember how she has destroyed all of the other men in her past!

ETA: In case you are all wondering if I just added that last part because I am really jealous of Kate and her predictament. You bet your bunnnies I sure am!!! Although, I doubt that I would have nearly as hard a time as she has had making that choice! ;)

These relationships had moments where they hated each other, or insults and even furniture were thrown about. They sometimes hurt each other with their cutting remarks or selfish actions and yet, noone can deny they were also some of the greatest romantic couples ever portrayed. :biggrin:

Those lines from Princess Leia and Han Solo gave me a good laugh again Z. Definitely sounds like Sawyer & Kate have been at times to me. Seems like flirting to me too. I've never seen that type of interaction with Kate & Jack anyway. They never flirt with one another.

4815WaitingforDisaster16234 - I don't think Damon actually used those words either - I can't remember the exact quote, but I think it was along the lines of "Jack being the man she should genuinely be with/want to be with" - it came across as having a different meaning to me anyways than Jack being the man she actually loves. I think he very much left it open to interpretation anyways - just like TPTB always do. ;)

Guys, you know the rules: no shipper wars! If it doesn't stop now, we will have to close the thread. It's up to you...

LostMyMarbles ; I think the same here ,J and K have absolutely NOTHING in common, except the fact that both are stranded on a mysterious island.;)
TPTB are trying to keep J and K shippers-watching.JMO .

Don't be so sure. I don't think TPTB pander to the audience that way. Whether or not Damon meant something by the comment remains to be seen.

(Regardless, I hope the people watching are mature enough to not abandon ship just because their ship isn't setting sail... I'm a Jater, but Jack and Kate's relationship isn't as important to me as the show as a whole.)

I think Kate is going to be with Sawyer until he gets killed off or something that could make her forgget abvout him and go for Jack,....But Kate does looks more like sawyer and they understand eachother better...

I don't think Damon actually used those words either - I can't remember the exact quote, but I think it was along the lines of "Jack being the man she should genuinely be with/want to be with" - it came across as having a different meaning to me anyways than Jack being the man she actually loves. I think he very much left it open to interpretation anyways - just like TPTB always do. ;)
Nope, he actually said she "loves Jack, but is drawn to Sawyer"

I feel you, MidnightSawyerfan. I have long been married to a work-aholic-Jack type and there are many, many times that I wish he was a little more interested in me and a little less interested in all of his assumed responsibilties.

While some people may think that Sawyer's comments are lewd, at least he is willing to put forth the effort to let her know that he finds her very attractive and that he is indeed interested in her. Sawyer seems to me to always be aspiring to deserve Kate's love. With Jack, it is Kate that has to work hard in order to feel worthy. Who is to say which scenerio she prefers. Perhaps she thinks that being with Jack will make her feel like (and therefore act like) a better person. Or maybe she enjoys being with Sawyer and being appreciated for the person she already is. It all boils down to Kate's sence of self worth and what she needs in order to be fullfilled.

Clearly we all have our own reasons for preferring one man over the other. But, lets not forget that these are all very personal reasons. Kate will also have her own reasons and whether we like it or not, none of us can say for certain what the ulimate outcome of this triangle will be. Both men are very attractive and have a lot of good qualities. Maybe Kate isn't actually worthy of either of them......remember how she has destroyed all of the other men in her past!

ETA: In case you are all wondering if I just added that last part because I am really jealous of Kate and her predictament. You bet your bunnnies I sure am!!! Although, I doubt that I would have nearly as hard a time as she has had making that choice! ;)

Your post certainly does point out that it is often our own experiences that make us choose one pair over another. It seems like I'm the lucky one then lostnthesoutheast, as at least I realised it before we did end up marrying. I'm sorry to hear that you experience it now with your husband. That must be difficult to bear.

You're right too about Kate - as a character, she does choose as a result of her experiences and what she thinks she needs too. I won't be able to help but think that if TPTB do make Kate go for Jack in the end, that it will be in some way because they feel she hasn't yet experienced what I did or what you currently do either - that she doesn't realise that there's much more to love & life than some attempt to have a fairytale romance. It's the real type of love in life than I think has so many more good stories & endings to it than the fairytale variety, and it's so much more appealing as a result too. I can't see Jate being anything other than such an attempt to have that fairytale ending. If it happens beforehand, they can't make us generally believe it because the actors don't work as well together on screen as Josh & Evie do, so it may just happen in the end with Jack & Kate, so that they don't have to show the supposed love between the two. Now I know that some people think differently on this, so this is just my opinion. Having to "work hard to feel worthy" of someone is just so tiring for someone to continually have to do, so for this reason, if Kate has any sense, then she should realise that before too long if she should go for Jack.

Heck, I think if Kate remains with Sawyer (or goes back to him if they end up splitting up in the meantime) - then I think they could even go with a spin-off show for them, with all the potential that's there! :biggrin: (Then again, perhaps she'll remain independent at the end too - neither man may end up thinking she's worthy of them as you said too.)

The survival guide wasn't made to have a lot of "hidden meaning" or ambiguous, make-what-you -will-of-it statements. It was made to get people up to speed and into the show who would otherwise not be able to make sense of the show. TPTB are aiming to make the show accessible to new viewers. I think we can take the Survivor Guide as a kind of history toward that end.

Zoriah, with all due respect, this is Lost, not Star Wars. Star Wars didn't have Leia flashing back to her abusive father after Han made some kind of comment. Also, Leia didn't have the foundations a of relationship set up that was in direct contrast to the abuse she was used to. I'm actually a huge Han Solo fan, I love him :wub: !! If I felt the analogy worked, maybe I would ship Sawyer and Kate. Anyway, that's totally my opinion alone, obviously. Just adding my .02. :lipsseal:

MidnightSawyerfan and lostnthesoutheast, I'm truly sorry to hear about your experiences. I wish you all the happiness. It's interesting how the characters that appeal most to us speak to us in a personal way. My husband is far from perfect (hope he doesn't read that, lol) but I can relate to the soul connection I feel that Jack and Kate have. So, I think you are onto something there!

The sad thing is, the way they set up this love triangle, one ship will likely be disappointed. I've resolved personally to to try to watch how all three of the characters grow and to try to let that be more of my focus than let myself be sucked into the roller coaster ride of the triangle. Whoever Kate chooses, I want to see that it's believable. Show me, TPTB!! Less ambiguity please and more Kate sharing with the audience how she feels.

You guys are making it sound like being dedicated to your job, or rather being a workaholic is a bad thing. Jack was doing what he did best and there is nothing wrong with that. Sure, he made the mistake of marrying Sarah for the wrong reasons, but as we saw in "the hunting party" Jack did fall in love with her and wanted to save their marriage. Unfortunately, by that time it was too late. So Jack made a mistake. Is he not allowed to make a mistake? I admit that he does need to lighten up, but his heart is usually in the right place. I also think it takes an incredibly self-confident woman to date and or marry a doctor simply because of their profession alone.

Having said all of that, Jack has changed since being on the island. I think he now has realized that he can't always "fix" everything and has finally learned to let go. Kate and Jack do belong together, because as characters on our TV screens, they are able to capture the viewers hearts and like Gregg mentioned, they make us want to step in between them and make everything all right.

Nope, he actually said she "loves Jack, but is drawn to Sawyer"

Oops, apologies. Just shows the feeling I was left with after I listened to those comments - I obviously never took it up as meaning Kate loves Jack in that way! Actually, neither of those statements are in dispute. Kate does love Jack...but is she IN LOVE with him? No. She's IN LOVE (and drawn to) Sawyer

You guys are making it sound like being dedicated to your job, or rather being a workaholic is a bad thing. Jack was doing what he did best and there is nothing wrong with that.

No, there is absolutely nothing wrong with being dedicated to your job, it's just when the job means that a man is more dedicated to it than the woman in his life, that's when problems can arise. To me, the people & family in my life will always be more important than any job at the end of the day & I should hope that any man I happen to love would feel the same way about me! Doctors often do have to have an extra dedication to their job than most people do to their's - it is a way of life for them. Perhaps this does mean that it is harder to be a partner with a medic too, but I think certain types of people do have that security & stability around them in order to be able to deal with that & not let if affect their love lives significantly too. Would Kate belong with Jack then if that is the case? I don't think so, she doesn't have that type of life for one thing if they were ever to return to their worlds back 'home'.

Oops, apologies. Just shows the feeling I was left with after I listened to those comments - I obviously never took it up as meaning Kate loves Jack in that way! Actually, neither of those statements are in dispute. Kate does love Jack...but is she IN LOVE with him? No. She's IN LOVE (and drawn to) Sawyer

I respectfully disagree lol. Damon (or was it Carlton) said that Kate genuinely loves Jack but is drawn to Sawyer. If they wanted it to mean that Kate was in love with Sawyer, then they would have made that more apparent than just saying Kate is drawn to Sawyer. But I'm not going to go back and forth with you and debate this lol. You have your opinion, I have mine. We'll just leave it at that. :)

I respectfully disagree lol. Damon (or was it Carlton) said that Kate genuinely loves Jack but is drawn to Sawyer. If they wanted it to mean that Kate was in love with Sawyer, then they would have made that more apparent than just saying Kate is drawn to Sawyer. But I'm not going to go back and forth with you and debate this lol. You have your opinion, I have mine. We'll just leave it at that. :)

I'm afraid to have to respectfully disagree too Krystal. I don't think we can take anything from TPTB literally - if they said Kate loves Sawyer but is drawn to Jack, then I'd still say take it with a pinch of salt. I don't think we can ever believe anything with this show until we see it all play out.

Zoriah, with all due respect, this is Lost, not Star Wars. Star Wars didn't have Leia flashing back to her abusive father after Han made some kind of comment. Also, Leia didn't have the foundations a of relationship set up that was in direct contrast to the abuse she was used to. I'm actually a huge Han Solo fan, I love him :wub: !! If I felt the analogy worked, maybe I would ship Sawyer and Kate. Anyway, that's totally my opinion alone, obviously. Just adding my .02. :lipsseal:
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No worries. I was bringing it up because in the Survivor Guide, Damon and Carlton themselves actually refer to Sawyer as the Han Solo/Jack Sparrow character. Clearly they see Sawyer in that kind of light, and it isn't hard to see how his interaction with Kate is very reflective of the fun, combative, give and take dynamic of those two iconic romantic figures form the trilogy.

Posters were pointing out Kate's sometimes negative remarks to Sawyer and I believe that they demonstrate a state of denial of her feelings as well as being the truth. Heck wasn't that what WKD was about? Her working through her issues of transference and facing her denial? :biggrin:

That kind of snarky "I think you are a creep" "No, you don't really" banter has been used in many great romances. So I guess what I am saying is Kate can say mean things or pretend she doesn't like the attention, but in the end, she chose to admit she loved Sawyer, to make love to him and offer to give up her life for him. I'm not sure how you can dismiss that as a flash in the pan.

Relationships aren't always rosey, and they aren't always about two people walking on eggshells around each other. Sometimes it's about mutual passion, and a deep bond that cannot be denied, no matter how illogical or not suitable it may be.

I agree that in Kate's mind Jack is the man she should be with. I just believe that the man she is with is the man she is in love with. For better or worse. ;)

No worries. I was bringing it up because in the Survivor Guide, Damon and Carlton themselves actually refer to Sawyer as the Han Solo/Jack Sparrow character. Clearly they see Sawyer in that kind of light, and it isn't hard to see how his interaction with Kate is very reflective of the fun, combative, give and take dynamic of those two iconic romantic figures form the trilogy.

Posters were pointing out Kate's sometimes negative remarks to Sawyer and I believe that they demonstrate a state of denial of her feelings as well as being the truth. Heck wasn't that what WKD was about? Her working through her issues of transference and facing her denial? :biggrin:

That kind of snarky "I think you are a creep" "No, you don't really" banter has been used in many great romances. So I guess what I am saying is Kate can say mean things or pretend she doesn't like the attention, but in the end, she chose to admit she loved Sawyer, to make love to him and offer to give up her life for him. I'm not sure how you can dismiss that as a flash in the pan.

Okay I highlighted the above as the only thing I agree with, LOL. Sawyer may be that "type" on the surface, but we all know that Lost is about going deeper than that. No comment on the rest of your post, as it is mostly your view and opinion and I totally respect that. My view of these relationships is so diametrically opposed to yours that I find it fascinating. :) TPTB, they certainly have a way about them...