Hello everyone,
Incredible episode!

A few observations and thoughts.
In the opening scene Juliet was on a beach. Nothing but ocean in her line of sight.
Then we see her walking down a hall, past Ethan into a room with her sister. She gives her sister an injection in the belly. (Much like Ethan was doing to Claire, if you remember when he kidnapped her.)
Juliet then opens the blinds for her sister and there is Miami's skyline, a big bridge and conveniently an Oceanic plane going by. Quite a different view than Juliet had.

My point is this, Is Juliet on the island already with Rachel? If you notice, when Juliet is walking down the hall and sees Ethan, it looks exactly like the hatch Claire was held in, note the blinking lights up above and the gloomy hallway in general. I also believe the scene of Miami, Rachel was shown was a fake and Juliet was relaxing on the island, NOT in Miami.

Of course why did she seem not to know Ethan as they passed each other? My only 2 thoughts here are, either to dupe her sister for some reason, or she went through what Karl did and did not remember him.

Even if you do not agree with my theory on this being the "Medical Hatch," can anyone explain why Ethan was there at that point and why she seemed not to really know him? Something is just not right.

Opinions? Thanks!

Juliet was in Miami pre-DHARMA recruitment to come to the island. MIttelos Labs is probably another name for DHARMA or one of its subsidiaries.
Ethan was there because he was doing background checks/research on Juliet. That's how Mr. Alpert knew that Rachel was pregnant and told Juliet in the morgue that they did their research.

Haven't noticed anyone mention the weirdness of the opening scene....I could be stretching on this one, but here is how i saw it originally.....

Juliet is on a beach....doesn't look like Miami to me, so instantly, i was thinking it was the island. Then she's walking down a very Dharma-esque looking hallway, lights flickering, very drab and she walks by Ethan. She then enters her sister's apartment - which to me again, looks like a small, dreary room, something that looks like a dharma-clock on her side table, and Juliet tells her she'd like it if she'd come stay with her. Then Juliet opens the curtains and it's the Miami skyline??

I guess the easy answer is her sister lived in a rundown apartment building and when Juliet was sitting out on the beach, she was looking in a different direction then her sister's apartment faces.

But....what if they were on the island at that point - afterall, Juliet did ask the Mittelos guy if she could take her sister with her, and was given the answer that her sister wouldn't beable to get the care she needed....looking at the room she was in, i think that can be described as true.
Maybe the skyline in the window was a trick, and the sister has no idea that she's not in Miami anymore??

I was just very confused while watching, and i wonder if I missed something that debunks this whole theory.

Please people....whatcha think?

ETA: after re-reading the above, i just want to mention, that I do realize that they were in Miami during the flashbacks that followed....i'm just thinking the opening scene actually took place after Juliet accepted the job with Mittelos

Unfortunately, I think most of what you described was done for the effect of a shock when Juliet opened the window to reveal they weren't on the island at all, but they WERE in the real world, and this was just a flashback.

Hello everyone,
Incredible episode!

A few observations and thoughts.
In the opening scene Juliet was on a beach. Nothing but ocean in her line of sight.
Then we see her walking down a hall, past Ethan into a room with her sister. She gives her sister an injection in the belly. (Much like Ethan was doing to Claire, if you remember when he kidnapped her.)
Juliet then opens the blinds for her sister and there is Miami's skyline, a big bridge and conveniently an Oceanic plane going by. Quite a different view than Juliet had.

My point is this, Is Juliet on the island already with Rachel? If you notice, when Juliet is walking down the hall and sees Ethan, it looks exactly like the hatch Claire was held in, note the blinking lights up above and the gloomy hallway in general. I also believe the scene of Miami, Rachel was shown was a fake and Juliet was relaxing on the island, NOT in Miami.

Of course why did she seem not to know Ethan as they passed each other? My only 2 thoughts here are, either to dupe her sister for some reason, or she went through what Karl did and did not remember him.

Even if you do not agree with my theory on this being the "Medical Hatch," can anyone explain why Ethan was there at that point and why she seemed not to really know him? Something is just not right.

Opinions? Thanks!

I missed this thread when i was going through the posts, so I started a new thread with my post....but it looks like one of our fine Mods noticed and just merged mine into yours, Thanks for that MOD!

Obviously, I was thinking the same as you MS. Something just didn't seem right about the "apartment" Rachel was living in.

And it's not that Juliet didn't recognize Ethan.....I think at that point, Juliet is upset with the decision that she made to bring her sister to this Island because she is not getting the treatment she needs. Juliet is pissed at whoever is in charge at the time, because they won't let her sister go home to get the care she needs....i just thought she was being 'cold' to Ethan, feeling like he was one of the people who tricked her into going to the island.

it was all done to throw the viewer. kind of a reverse of the past 2 season openers. in season 2, it opened with des in the hatch, but it looked like the real world until the dynamite blew. in season 3, it looked like juliet in her suburban home until the earthquake and plane crash revealed it was the island. Not in Portland (being the "season opener" of the non-stop season) opens in reverse. we are led to believe we're on the island, only to reveal that we're actually in miami. just a fun nod to the way LOST usually opens a season, and a way to tweak the viewer just a bit.

--billy

I think it was intended to make us initailly think that they were on the island - and it worked - until she opened the curtains. Based on what we saw there, added to the scene in Juliet's apartment where Rachel told her she was pregnant, I'd have to conclude that opening scene was indeed in Miami and not on the island.

it was all done to throw the viewer. kind of a reverse of the past 2 season openers. in season 2, it opened with des in the hatch, but it looked like the real world until the dynamite blew. in season 3, it looked like juliet in her suburban home until the earthquake and plane crash revealed it was the island. Not in Portland (being the "season opener" of the non-stop season) opens in reverse. we are led to believe we're on the island, only to reveal that we're actually in miami. just a fun nod to the way LOST usually opens a season, and a way to tweak the viewer just a bit.

--billy

Agree totally! Another cool touch was the record player. This time the scene begins with a character removing the needle from the record that has already ended. I liked it!

I think that opening sequence was clearly designed for the "shock value" of seeing Juliet off-island, in the "real world". For non-spoiler readers/viewers that was probably a revelation. Another interesting aspect was Ethan's appearance in Rachel's partment building (or whatever that was). Was he in contact with Rachel without Juliet's knowledge? Very possible. It would tie in nicely with his interaction with Claire.

Unfortunately, I think most of what you described was done for the effect of a shock when Juliet opened the window to reveal they weren't on the island at all, but they WERE in the real world, and this was just a flashback.Yep... and it was a bit of a problem if you missed (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?p=1364806) that part! :redface:

so no one else thinks it's a little suspicious that Juliet's sister lived in a ratty old, one room apartment, with an ancient looking record player, a dharma looking clock....the fact that when Juliet is sitting on the beach, you see nothing in the distance - and no lights from the city even though the skyline lights up the sky when she pulls the curtains?

I think that I agree with you guys, but something just doesn't sit right.

Also, i just thought of something else, kinda but not directly related to this.....what if Juliet wanted Ben to die on the operating table as payback because she blames him for the death of her sister (if rachel is, in fact, dead...just a theory) That would tie in nicely if that first scene was on the Island, she wasn't getting proper care, but Ben still wouldn't let her go home.

Juliet seemed to think this was odd that they were surging and I think we were supposed to catch onto that. Almost as if some piece of equipment may have been in use that would upset the electricity?

I just thought that we were, at that time, supposed to think Juliet was on the island, and not realize it was a flashback. The flickering lights were consistent with the inconsistent technology on the island...

I wish people would stop claiming the clock looked like the Dharma logo. It was shown very briefly as part of the setup to throw off viewers, but the clock clearly just features a traditional Yin/Yang symbol.

I wish people would stop claiming the clock looked like the Dharma logo. It was shown very briefly as part of the setup to throw off viewers, but the clock clearly just features a traditional Yin/Yang symbol.

thank you for that informative post
regardless of what you say, it was in the shape of the dharma symbol,
so when people who pay attention to the details see this,
i think there's no reason they can't try and theorize about it.

The logo for Mittelos also had the same resemblance to the dharma symbol,
so was it also incorrect for people to think the moment they saw it, that they had some affiliation with Dharma?

There are plenty of posts around this board that make much wilder assumptions then this one. If you don't like it, just ignore it.

ETA: btw....i guess i'm pretty well convinced that they were in Miami. I guess TPTB just tricked me too well :doh:

I agree with you, Johnny. I'm actually surprised to hear that people thought Rachel was not housed on the island. I think that initial flashback segment was after Juliet had been roped into working for Dharma and not from earlier when she and her sis lived in Miami..

I am wondering... is the hallway that Ethan/Juliet are in the same as the hallway that Claire walks in with Ethan? If someone has screen caps, that might help us determine whether Rachel was in the island maternity ward or just in a scummy apartment building in Miami.

I agree with you, Johnny. I'm actually surprised to hear that people thought Rachel was not housed on the island.

I am wondering... is the hallway that Ethan/Juliet are in the same as the hallway that Claire walks in with Ethan? If someone has screen caps, that might help us determine whether Rachel was in the island maternity ward or just in a scummy apartment building in Miami.

well, as i mentioned in the edit...i guess i've kinda lost faith in the theory. I like it, but i'm thinking it was all a trick like the majority of people have mentioned. :shrug:

and the only problem with comparing to screencaps from the maternity hatch is that I don't think it was necessarily the same hatch, but instead a different yet similar dharma hatch that may be on Alcatraz?

I just can't get the image of Juliet, sitting out on a rock or something, looking over the beach.....just seemed to familiar and consistent with the island......oops, there i go reaching again, lol.

The whole opening scene is a bit odd too in the fact that when Juliet is on the beach, it is morning. She is looking east from Miami and the sun is just rising. But then when she's in her sister's apartment and opens the blinds, it's nighttime.

I just can't get the image of Juliet, sitting out on a rock or something, looking over the beach.....just seemed to familiar and consistent with the island......oops, there i go reaching again, lol.


Yeah, that does not look like any beach in downtown Miami I've ever seen. :)

The whole opening scene is a bit odd too in the fact that when Juliet is on the beach, it is morning. She is looking east from Miami and the sun is just rising. But then when she's in her sister's apartment and opens the blinds, it's nighttime.

i just figured that it was dusk, the sun was setting and she was facing west....but that still wouldn't explain why the sky is so dark where she's sitting, but then so bright from the skyline when she opens the blinds.

i just figured that it was dusk, the sun was setting and she was facing west....but that still wouldn't explain why the sky is so dark where she's sitting, but then so bright from the skyline when she opens the blinds.

From Miami, if you face west, you're not looking at the ocean, you're looking at land. So she had to be facing east. So the sun must be rising.

From Miami, if you face west, you're not looking at the ocean, you're looking at land. So she had to be facing east. So the sun must be rising.

:doh: good point mojave
bit of a brain cramp there, my apologies
i actually do know a little geography, lol

I think you may be looking too far into this, and you might get a little disappointed. I think you should take it as it was revealed, i mean you can't question everything in LOST. I think the whole reason that the starting scene seemed so eerie and confusing was simply done for dramatic effect for the big reveal.

That scene reminded me of when Claire was abducted in the 'medical hatch'. it had those blinking lights.

It was used to make us think we were on the island.

I missed this thread when i was going through the posts, so I started a new thread with my post....but it looks like one of our fine Mods noticed and just merged mine into yours, Thanks for that MOD!

Obviously, I was thinking the same as you MS. Something just didn't seem right about the "apartment" Rachel was living in.

And it's not that Juliet didn't recognize Ethan.....I think at that point, Juliet is upset with the decision that she made to bring her sister to this Island because she is not getting the treatment she needs. Juliet is pissed at whoever is in charge at the time, because they won't let her sister go home to get the care she needs....i just thought she was being 'cold' to Ethan, feeling like he was one of the people who tricked her into going to the island.

Nope. It was in Miami.

Do you think maybe she might have been sitting on the beach on the island remembering about her sister. And then when she got up and walked away they cut to her walking to the apartment when she was in Miami. Or was she wearing the same clothes in each shot cuz I don't remember. Might explain the difference in skyline and light.

Do you think maybe she might have been sitting on the beach on the island remembering about her sister. And then when she got up and walked away they cut to her walking to the apartment when she was in Miami. Or was she wearing the same clothes in each shot cuz I don't remember. Might explain the difference in skyline and light.

I believe she was wearing the same clothes Emme,
and she was also clutching that little zippered case she had with the medication in it, while sitting on the beach, then again while she was walking down the hall.

And again, while I've pretty much accepted the fact that she was in Miami,
something else hit me last night....
Didn't anyone think that Rachel looked a lot sicker (and maybe older, even) in that scene, compared to when she was sitting on Juliet's couch and she informed her that she was pregnant? She looked to me to be thinner and weaker in the opening scene than she did at other times......yes, yes...i know i'm grasping.....oh well, i was having fun with this idea anyway :biggrin:

Didn't anyone think that Rachel looked a lot sicker (and maybe older, even) in that scene, compared to when she was sitting on Juliet's couch and she informed her that she was pregnant?

I thought she looked the same.

Agree totally! Another cool touch was the record player. This time the scene begins with a character removing the needle from the record that has already ended. I liked it!

That remark put the icing on my mental cake!

All through this episode, the writers gave us clues about time: The lost time anagram, the Brief History of Time book, the womb of a young woman that looks like an old woman's. Time is off on this island. And maybe the flashbacks are not shown in chronological order.

Maybe the opening scene showing the end of the record is a clue that this scene is not the beginning, but the end.

Something nagging at me - Juliet made it clear she couldn't accept the job because of her ex, so they kill him. Now the only thing standing in her way is her sister. It doesn't make sense Juliet would leave town now that her sis is pregnant and sick. This is her project and she would have to see it through to the end. No scientist would walk away before seeing the end results.
Since Dharma/Mittelos/whoever, is interested in Juliet as a fertility expert, they would also have some interest in the outcome of this experimental drug and its resulting pregnancy. Plus, Rachel is going to give birth and then probably die. Who do we know that's always looking for fresh young babies and children?

So why would they NOT take the sister too? They could see if she carries to term and keep the baby once it becomes available. Juliet is free to join the team and still keep an eye on her sister.

No need to bother Rachel with these pesky details. Just have her think she is still at home. She will die before she ever catches on. A stunnning cityscape of Miami out the window would be all it would take to convince her she never left home. I'm sure they could create a convincing pseudo cityscape.

We don't know how it turned out yet, whether the baby lived or not, and what happened after that.

It has always seemed that Juliet is not happy with the way the Others conduct business. She wants change. This may be part of the reason why. If Rachel was on the island with her, no telling what happened to her or the baby.

Maybe the injection we see Rachel getting in the stomach is not the fertility potion, but the same thing they give all the Others to protect them from the island sickness.

Even if this theory doesn't prove true, I still firmly believe Juliet would NOT leave her sister in the middle of the project.

It didn't occur to me until just reading this thread, but also in the first scene where Juliet injects her sister and says we don't have to keep doing this, doesn't the sister say something like "are you afraid he's going to find out?" We assume she means Juliet's husband, but if they are in fact on the island (and I'm not convinced that they are or that they are not) it could actually be Ben she's talking about.

Even if this theory doesn't prove true, I still firmly believe Juliet would NOT leave her sister in the middle of the project.

It appears many of us are saying the same thing on different threads: there's plenty of reason to believe that first scene was not what it appeared to be. *Nothing* about that scene was right.

The empty Miami beach with no ambient city light, the sunrise followed by darkening sky, Juliet's low tech medicine bag, the ratty dharma-looking building, the flickering lights, Ethan's presence, the deliberately disorienting hallway, the turntable, the candles and oxygen, the dharma lamp, the weird picture over Rachel's bed, the masses of medicine bottles (on both sides of the bed), Rachel's appearing sicker than she did later, Juliet's appearance (more like island Juliet than Miami Juliet).

And your argument above may be the strongest of all. Juliet would not have left her cancer-stricken sister. Juliet would not have left her risky-pregnancy sister. No way in purgatory would Juliet have left her sister who was both sick and pregnant.

Re the window, here's a fun thought: I posted in a separate thread that the magazine under Rachel's pregnancy test is "Glass Patterns Quarterly", a publication for stained glass crafters. Rachel may be a stained glass artist all right, but I wonder if it was a funny clue about the window in the opening scene being a fake one.

Re the window, here's a fun thought: I posted in a separate thread that the magazine under Rachel's pregnancy test is "Glass Patterns Quarterly", a publication for stained glass crafters. Rachel may be a stained glass artist all right, but I wonder if it was a funny clue about the window in the opening scene being a fake one.

Interesting point! Stained Glass = the quintessential example of a fake window! What you see in the window is not what it seems.

Definitely going to have to watch a second time with all this in mind!

:shesaid:

totally didn't catch that window reference
nice one lostmio

I'm just glad I'm not the only one who went in this direction with that opening scene
:biggrin:

Do you think maybe she might have been sitting on the beach on the island remembering about her sister. And then when she got up and walked away they cut to her walking to the apartment when she was in Miami. Or was she wearing the same clothes in each shot cuz I don't remember. Might explain the difference in skyline and light.
This is the same thing I thought. It may have been a flashback within a flashback.
Maybe her first night on the Island and her leather injection case makes her think back to how it all started with her sister back in Miami.

There is literally nothing to suggest that the flashback scenes were not: (A) in Miami; and (B) chronological. So you think Juliet's sister came with her to the Island and the first flashback happened on the Island? Then they jumped back further in time when both her sister and Juliet were not on the Island? So in the first scene, you think the sister was pregnant but not showing much? Or, do you think she had already given birth and was getting new injections to promote what, another pregnancy? Why? This makes no sense and is just another example of people not accepting that the most simple explanation is the most likely. And how are the writers going to reveal the trick they played on us. If true, that would lead to millions of people going, "huh?" all at once.

Personally i think this was just done for the effect - it certainly made me go 'WOW' when she opened the curtains.....As someone else said earlier - it was purposely made to make you think of the 'Claire' hatch (flashing lights, ethan etc) so that the 'reveal' would be even more shocking!

There is literally nothing to suggest that the flashback scenes were not: (A) in Miami; and (B) chronological. So you think Juliet's sister came with her to the Island and the first flashback happened on the Island? Then they jumped back further in time when both her sister and Juliet were not on the Island? So in the first scene, you think the sister was pregnant but not showing much? Or, do you think she had already given birth and was getting new injections to promote what, another pregnancy? Why? This makes no sense and is just another example of people not accepting that the most simple explanation is the most likely. And how are the writers going to reveal the trick they played on us. If true, that would lead to millions of people going, "huh?" all at once.

well you may see it that way, but obviously there are some people who think there is literally nothing to suggest that it is not Miami. If you know that it is definitely not the Island, please make those facts known. You want to play the Ockham's Razor card, then I have no problem with that. But with a show like Lost, I think the last thing you can say is that the writer's haven't tricked us in the past, and won't continue to try to do the same in the future.

What amazes me, is that you are so adamant, that it is impossible for that scene to have taken place on the island. There was an overlying theme of "Time" throughout this whole episode.....maybe they're playing on your acceptance of the chronology? What exactly do you know about the injections? For all we know, she may need to continue the medication once she has been taking it for a long enough period of time...maybe her body becomes dependent on it....however unlikely that is, you really just do not know. This board is full of speculation, and the injections aren't the real discussion here. What if her baby didn't carry for the full term, but Rachel has been insisting that they continue to try? Maybe it's not even the same medication, but Juliet makes it look that way for her sister's sake?

In my opinion, I guess it makes more sense that they in fact are in Miami.....and your point about the injections make me believe that even more Kell, it is a good point. But, as some others would agree, there was something weird about that opening scene. Obviously you don't agree, so why continue to take part in the discussion and tell us that we make no sense?

And just a quick answer to your last question....how would they reveal the trick to us? I don't think it would be very difficult at all. It would only take a conversation between Ben and Juliet, where Juliet may place blame on Ben for her Rachel's death?.....another Juliet flashback episode maybe?....a discussion with anyone (jack, maybe) about how her sister died? Considering all TPTB have to explain, i think this situation would be one of the easier ones.

The first room definately did NOT look like her sister's apartment from the "I'm pregnant" scene. I don't even know what her sister is ill with, I am going to have to go search for that.

The first room definately did NOT look like her sister's apartment from the "I'm pregnant" scene. I don't even know what her sister is ill with, I am going to have to go search for that.

Yes Orowi....i believe the 'I'm pregnant' scene was in Juliet's apartment. Juliet refers to the room in the opening scene as her sister's apartment - or at least she tries to convince Rachel to move in with her.

I don't think they made any reference to what her actual ailment was....i've been assuming cancer, as she looked like she might have gone through some chemotherapy treatments.

But with a show like Lost, I think the last thing you can say is that the writer's haven't tricked us in the past, and won't continue to try to do the same in the future.

. . . .



Actually, I do say that. When have the writers ever tricked us in the manner you suggest? I'd be very interested in a single instance of such a trick as the one you are advocating here.



Obviously you don't agree, so why continue to take part in the discussion and tell us that we make no sense?


Because I disagree.

Actually, I do say that. When have the writers ever tricked us in the manner you suggest? I'd be very interested in a single instance of such a trick as the one you are advocating here.


Because I disagree.

I wish i could Kell, but i can't......so what i will say is this, i believe that to keep the viewers on the edge of their seat, it's presumptuous to think that they won't come up with new ways to surprise and trick us (again, maybe they played with the timeline, since 'time' kept popping up during the epi). I also don't think I'm advocating, but merely discussing with others, some weird coincidences that lead us in this direction.

I totally get that you disagree, and i have absolutely no problem with that. I've said that i'm flip flopping on whether the theory holds any water.

I'd say we agree to disagree, but i don't even disagree with you, lol. Part of me sees the holes in the theory / idea, but that doesn't mean a few of us, who like toying with the idea, are making no sense.....there's a large part of this show that pretty much makes no sense.

Actually, I do say that. When have the writers ever tricked us in the manner you suggest? I'd be very interested in a single instance of such a trick as the one you are advocating here.


Locke in a wheelchair, Kate robbing a bank, a mysterious brunette entering a motel, the guns removed from the hatch armory, Yurtville, the Others as hillbillies, Ethan as an 815 survivor...
These were all scenes in which viewers were set up and then given the reveal. Imo, they hint at the possibility of set ups for which the reveal may be longer coming.
Your mileage may vary. No need to get snarky just because some of us viewed the scene differently than you. It's all good spec, yours and ours and everyone else's.

There is literally nothing to suggest that the flashback scenes were not: (A) in Miami; and (B) chronological. So you think Juliet's sister came with her to the Island and the first flashback happened on the Island? Then they jumped back further in time when both her sister and Juliet were not on the Island? So in the first scene, you think the sister was pregnant but not showing much? Or, do you think she had already given birth and was getting new injections to promote what, another pregnancy? Why? This makes no sense and is just another example of people not accepting that the most simple explanation is the most likely. And how are the writers going to reveal the trick they played on us. If true, that would lead to millions of people going, "huh?" all at once.

We have very different ways of looking at things Kell. I like to explore the other, less than obvious possibilities. I do not firmly believe what I posted, I am just exploring the idea of it. All suposition. From my experience watching this show, nothing is ever what it seems. Rarely does anyone figure out beforehand what will happen next. So sometimes it's good to stay open to the possibility that these incredible writers will not always be giving us the simplest explaination. Stretch your mind a bit and explore the incredible.

And furthermore, if Occam's razor was the rule guiding the writers, The plane crash would have been caused by turbulence, the monster in the jungle would have turned out to be wild boars, there would be no hatches, no Dharma, no Others and certainly no mysteries for us to dissect. It would be Gilligans Island with hot people, and would have been cancelled in the first season. Thankfully the writers are imaginative, forward-thinking geniuses, always looking for new ways to blow our minds.

I'm going to have to plant my flag in the "It was Miami" camp. It was just a nice bit of reversal with the it's-the-outside-world-no-it's-the-island thing they've done twice now.

Yeah, that does not look like any beach in downtown Miami I've ever seen. :)
Consider this:
It does not look like any beach in downtown Miami, because they are not filming in Miami? but rather in Hawai.
The producers put you exactly where they wanted to. This is TV not real life. The fact that it does not look like a place you know, is simply because IT IS NOT the place you know. It makes no difference if the beach is to the East of Miami or to the West of Miami, this is not Miami! (and not Portland as well....)

Hang on, are people trying to say that the early scenes with ethan in the hallway, and juliet injecting her sister are meant to be on the island at a later date than what is shown in Juliet's other flashbacks?

If that is the case, then I don't understand teh following:

A) Doesn't it seem that Juliet's sister's treatment hasn't worked in these early scenes, suggesting that they are in fact earlier chronologically than the later scenes in which the treatment breakthrough happens?

B) As others have said, Juliet doesn't seem to pay much attention to Ethan when she first sees him

C) When we later see Ethan again in the morgue, Juliet seems to remember him, which would suggest that she already saw him - in the hallway as we are shown.

However... everything about the hallway itself, and the apartment is just so islandy dharma style. And the first time we see her apartment, it seems much crappier than when we later see it with the treatment breakthrough. But that might just be because it's a different room, and also a different time of day.

But, why would Juliet offer for her sister to come stay with her, if they were on the island. If they were meant to be on the island, and she was meant to be providing an illusion to fool her sister into thinking they were in miami, then how could Juliet take her to stay with her, without that illusion breaking? Mainly, I think they were chronological, and they weren't on the island. But I could be wrong, I feel maybe 90% confident about it. If it turns out that they were on the island, I think quite a lot of explaining is required.

Consider this:
It does not look like any beach in downtown Miami, because they are not filming in Miami? but rather in Hawai.
The producers put you exactly where they wanted to. This is TV not real life. The fact that it does not look like a place you know, is simply because IT IS NOT the place you know. It makes no difference if the beach is to the East of Miami or to the West of Miami, this is not Miami! (and not Portland as well....)

Thanks for stating the obvious. I realize that the show is not shot in Miami. My comment was how the beach looks *nothing* like Miami with its obvious light pollution and constant boat traffic.

Someone has yet to explain why the hallway to Rachel's apartment consisted of concrete walls like a bunker and hanging light bulbs and contained Ethan walking by saying a familiar co-worker hello.

If this scene was a trick it was weak since there was nothing that even resembled Miami in the slightest except for a really fakey plane taking off. Ethan saying hello requires launching into a spying theory. In fact, I would say that the "trick" explanation requires as much of a stretch as to say the scene did not take place in Miami.

We'll probably find out the answer the same time as we find out what the numbers are. Sometime in 2009. :biggrin:

I've just been watching it again, and I have a couple of other thoughts:

Firstly, here is a picture of a real miami beach:
http://www.henrywagner.org/pictures/Florida/MiamiHW9.jpg

Looks just like any other beach to me, so I think the opening shot could easily be meant to be miami, and not the island.

Secondly, Ethan's hair is longer in the flashbacks. I know it could be argued that he kept that hair style until Juliet got to the island, so he'd still have that hair for the time being, and then cut it later for when we see him... but isn't it more likely that his hairstyle signifies that both the scenes that we see him in are meant to be from around the same time?

Also, the first conversation we see Juliet have with her sister makes it clear (to me) that the treatment she is giving is still not proven to work, and so it seems that this is an earlier scene - and so it cannot be on the island. Juliet says "We don't have to keep doing this you know?" and her sister says "Are you saying that because you don't think it's gunna work, or because you're afraid he'll find out?". Just seems like that's before anything else which follows in the episode. Why would she be saying these things if the treatment had already worked...

Also Juliet's hair is the same in both flashbacks, it is crimped or squiggly or whatever, it is different to how it is now. It seems likely to me that Ethan and Juliet both had different hair at that time, in the past before the island.

I agree with everyone who says the first shot of Juliet sitting on the beach was meant to "trick" viewers into thinking she was actually on the island, when she was really in Miami.

Also, why would Juliet pull back the curtain and tell Rachel, "This is Miami" (revealing the Miami skyscape) if they were actually on the island, and more significantly, if Rachel knew they were on the island?
100%
Oh, and about the hallway that Ethan and Juliet passed each other in, I think it appeared to be similar to the one from Claire's flashback because they recycled the same set that they used when filming "Maternity Leave."

it was all done to throw the viewer. kind of a reverse of the past 2 season openers. in season 2, it opened with des in the hatch, but it looked like the real world until the dynamite blew. in season 3, it looked like juliet in her suburban home until the earthquake and plane crash revealed it was the island. Not in Portland (being the "season opener" of the non-stop season) opens in reverse. we are led to believe we're on the island, only to reveal that we're actually in miami. just a fun nod to the way LOST usually opens a season, and a way to tweak the viewer just a bit.

--billy

Bravo! I think this was a brilliant writer's technique. Damon and Carlton are great writers and your explanation, Wetsprocket, describes the use of this scene very nicely.

We will have another chance to view the opening scene again on Wednesday. I for one will be watching much closer this time. Last time it went by too fast.

Well, I think i'm pretty much gonna have to jump ship on this theory, lol.
too many holes.....
and while there are explanations for some and others that can just be chalked up to a good solid, 'we just don't know yet'......one thing has been specifically has been gnawing at my brain over the weekend....

for this theory to work, we must be assuming that it is a picture window of some kind showing the Miami skyline, meaning that Juliet was tricking Rachel into believing that they are still in Miami. Why then, after she walks in, does Juliet try and convince Rachel to move in with her? I mean if rachel didn't know they were on the island, how could Juliet move her? And I assume she would have to move her up the Othersville....and there's no tricking her into believing that's Miami, lol.

So, that, along with all the other observations people have posted, i guess it's just Miami :sadwalk:
Sorry for wasting all the time

ps.....i still think that hallway didn't look like an apartment building's hall :rolleye1:

I don't believe the opening scene was of the sun rising. Rachel had just gone to sleep with the candles burning, and they didn't look like they'd been burning all night long. Sun rises look different too. There is a false dawn first, which seems to brighten the night. It was far too dark on the beach for the sun to be rising. And it wasn't a reflection either, since when the sun gets that low on the horizon, the reflection is lost.

So this leaves us with 2 possibilites. 1. Not in Miami. and 2. This was filmed on the west coast, and TPTB made a mistake.

The title of this episode is Not in Portland. Portland Maine or Portland Oregon? East Coast or the West Coast?

I think the episode is about being somewhere, in your life or otherwise, and thinking you know where you are, only to find out that you were not right at all.

I
The title of this episode is Not in Portland. Portland Maine or Portland Oregon? East Coast or the West Coast?
.
Alpert said "Bioscience is based in Oregon. We're just outside Portland."

I don't believe the opening scene was of the sun rising. Rachel had just gone to sleep with the candles burning, and they didn't look like they'd been burning all night long. Sun rises look different too. There is a false dawn first, which seems to brighten the night. It was far too dark on the beach for the sun to be rising. And it wasn't a reflection either, since when the sun gets that low on the horizon, the reflection is lost.

So this leaves us with 2 possibilites. 1. Not in Miami. and 2. This was filmed on the west coast, and TPTB made a mistake.

The title of this episode is Not in Portland. Portland Maine or Portland Oregon? East Coast or the West Coast?

I think the episode is about being somewhere, in your life or otherwise, and thinking you know where you are, only to find out that you were not right at all.

I don't know why this is so hard. A simple check of the area on a map shows it is trivially easy to be within the take-off and approach corridor (as seen in the window shot) and have a clear western view of the sunset over LOTS of water.

http://map.rmservers.com/map?r=IMAG%7C%25PD%3D678,485%25LL%3D25%2E783802,%2 D80%2E189865%25ZM%3DM22961%2E60%25LLICON%3DIcon4,2 5%2E794930,%2D80%2E268082,Miami+International+Airp ort,Font11,R%7C%25MINP%3D1%25MS%3DB%7C%7C&d=75&t=mn&z=7&id=RMC&tid=1202714115.1171396165.81141&fix=1&h=8D4A71DF5546410AF9360BA2D0A749E2

It's Miami. Move on.

I don't know why this is so hard. A simple check of the area on a map shows it is trivially easy to be within the take-off and approach corridor (as seen in the window shot) and have a clear western view of the sunset over LOTS of water.

http://map.rmservers.com/map?r=IMAG%7C%25PD%3D678,485%25LL%3D25%2E783802,%2 D80%2E189865%25ZM%3DM22961%2E60%25LLICON%3DIcon4,2 5%2E794930,%2D80%2E268082,Miami+International+Airp ort,Font11,R%7C%25MINP%3D1%25MS%3DB%7C%7C&d=75&t=mn&z=7&id=RMC&tid=1202714115.1171396165.81141&fix=1&h=8D4A71DF5546410AF9360BA2D0A749E2

It's Miami. Move on.

while i've come to terms with it being Miami....kinda :rolleye1:

i can't understand how you come up with that conclusion.
looking west from Miami Beach,
you're looking directly at mainland Miami.....
when she was on the beach, there was nothing on the horizon.
a simple check of the map you provided shows this.

anyways.....Miami it almost surely is! LOL
:biggrin:

while i've come to terms with it being Miami....kinda :rolleye1:

i can't understand how you come up with that conclusion.
looking west from Miami Beach,
you're looking directly at mainland Miami.....
when she was on the beach, there was nothing on the horizon.
a simple check of the map you provided shows this.

anyways.....Miami it almost surely is! LOL
:biggrin:

Ok, let's try another point of view:

[/URL][url]http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=miami&ie=UTF8&z=12&ll=25.624502,-80.239334&spn=0.169327,0.390015&om=1 (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=kendall+tamiami+executive+airport&sll=25.646788,-80.271263&sspn=0.169295,0.390015&ie=UTF8&z=11&ll=25.733107,-80.203629&spn=0.338345,0.55481&om=1&iwloc=A)

See that Key Biscayne? If you are in the middle area sitting on the western edge looking into the sunset, your angle of view should be aimed roughly at the Palmetto Bay area. That puts about 7 miles of water before shoreline. Then a park area (hint: no tall buildings) followed up by residential area (again, no tall buildings).

This is entirely feasible.

Edit: Changed map view

Ok, let's try another point of view:

[/URL][url]http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=miami&ie=UTF8&z=12&ll=25.624502,-80.239334&spn=0.169327,0.390015&om=1 (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=kendall+tamiami+executive+airport&sll=25.646788,-80.271263&sspn=0.169295,0.390015&ie=UTF8&z=11&ll=25.733107,-80.203629&spn=0.338345,0.55481&om=1&iwloc=A)

See that Key Biscayne? If you are in the middle area sitting on the western edge looking into the sunset, your angle of view should be aimed roughly at the Palmetto Bay area. That puts about 7 miles of water before shoreline. Then a park area (hint: no tall buildings) followed up by residential area (again, no tall buildings).

This is entirely feasible.

Edit: Changed map view

ok, so now you have her in Key Biscayne not Miami....and yes, i see it.
so she's sitting on a beach, looking west from Key Biscayne,
actually, looking south west if she's aimed at the Palmetto Bay Area,
walks off the beach and into her sister's apartment building,
pulls the curtains, and is looking into a chunk of the Miami skyline....

not sure that is entirely feasible.

div2n....i never really was debating the view she has from the beach,
except for the total lack of any ambient light that should be visible,
considering Miami, and the surrounding area, should be very bright,
as it was when she pulled the curtains apart.

I was more intrigued by the weird apartment building, flickering lights, her small, drab apartment, familiar looking record player, etc.

but i will re-iterate that the writers did a good job tricking me
i guess that i hoped there was a little mystery involved in that opening segment
:shrug:

ok, so now you have her in Key Biscayne not Miami....and yes, i see it.
so she's sitting on a beach, looking west from Key Biscayne,
actually, looking south west if she's aimed at the Palmetto Bay Area,
walks off the beach and into her sister's apartment building,
pulls the curtains, and is looking into a chunk of the Miami skyline....

not sure that is entirely feasible.

div2n....i never really was debating the view she has from the beach,
except for the total lack of any ambient light that should be visible,
considering Miami, and the surrounding area, should be very bright,
as it was when she pulled the curtains apart.

I was more intrigued by the weird apartment building, flickering lights, her small, drab apartment, familiar looking record player, etc.

but i will re-iterate that the writers did a good job tricking me
i guess that i hoped there was a little mystery involved in that opening segment
:shrug:

Well just to help settle this a bit, I've done some digging. Here is a photo from the southern tip of the key--Bill Baggs Park. You can see the skyline in the distance, but sadly we don't know which direction the camera is pointing.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/parro/349203088/

Here's one showing the sunset:
http://www.dep.state.fl.us/parks/OPG/capeflorida/photos/visitors/CFL-BillBaggs3-AdrianGray.jpg

That picture is only slightly left of where Juliet could have potentially been looking. I went back and looked at it and was unable to discern land due to the lighting. But what is interesting is that in the second linked picture above, you can't see lights clearly. To be fair, the light from the setting sun could be drowning it out.

Luckily a little persistence found the following sunset picture form Virginia Key--just north of Biscayne:

http://www.key-biscayne.com/kb/pod/1906.shtml

And another one from the north side of Biscayne:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/asawaa/316789971/

I think those photos should provide more concrete proof that the shot could have been taken in the general area.

I think it is important to keep in mind that it is possible that while it appears that Juliet goes straight from the beach to the apartment, she very well could have been out in this area to view the beautiful sunset which I am sure native Miami folk know about. Just the sort of thing someone contemplating carrying out "unethical" experiments on their own sister might want to see for inspiration. The part we aren't shown could have been her driving back to the mainland to the apartment building.

Just a thought . . .

I think we should all watch the episode again tomorrow and really pay attention this time. I know I will.

We will have another chance to view the opening scene again on Wednesday. I for one will be watching much closer this time. Last time it went by too fast.

I think we should all watch the episode again tomorrow and really pay attention this time. I know I will.

No need to wait. If you don't record episodes, they're always posted the next day on the ABC site.

No need to wait. If you don't record episodes, they're always posted the next day on the ABC site.

Yes, but unfortunately for us Canucks, up here north of the border,
i don't believe abc.com lets us access them.
come to think of it, i don't think i've ever tried,
but i do know other networks work that way.

No your right jw we can't watch them. I've tried with Heroes and natta. It says "sorry video is unavailable where you live" or something like that.

Hello everyone,
Incredible episode!

A few observations and thoughts.
In the opening scene Juliet was on a beach. Nothing but ocean in her line of sight.
Then we see her walking down a hall, past Ethan into a room with her sister. She gives her sister an injection in the belly. (Much like Ethan was doing to Claire, if you remember when he kidnapped her.)
Juliet then opens the blinds for her sister and there is Miami's skyline, a big bridge and conveniently an Oceanic plane going by. Quite a different view than Juliet had.

My point is this, Is Juliet on the island already with Rachel? If you notice, when Juliet is walking down the hall and sees Ethan, it looks exactly like the hatch Claire was held in, note the blinking lights up above and the gloomy hallway in general. I also believe the scene of Miami, Rachel was shown was a fake and Juliet was relaxing on the island, NOT in Miami.

Of course why did she seem not to know Ethan as they passed each other? My only 2 thoughts here are, either to dupe her sister for some reason, or she went through what Karl did and did not remember him.

Even if you do not agree with my theory on this being the "Medical Hatch," can anyone explain why Ethan was there at that point and why she seemed not to really know him? Something is just not right.

Opinions? Thanks!

MS-

Although I'm not sure your conclusion is accurate I think you're on to something. I was a bit confused by the beginning of the episode as well. Here's my thoughts on it:

Juliette starts on the beach and then enters what looks like the medical hatch. When Ethan passes I almost was sure this was the case. My thoughts were that she was about to inject Claire --

BUT that's when we're introduced to Rachel. Now as I haven't seen the episode since Saturday I can't exactly recall if we heard the flashback sound or not. And since Juliette later asks if she knows Ethan from somewhere it lead me to believe it was just in passing from the openening shot. So I was confused as well.

As for explaining Ethan I think it becomes clear when Alpert says that they researched her thoroughly. Ethan must have been monitoring her work and investigating her.

After rewatching i think i am onboard with this theory.
The only thing that doesnt make sense is that ethan scene where she reconizes him.

Reasons i believe they are on the island and not miami....
-the miami scen looked very generated....
-the outside beach scene didnt seem like what was in the window....is that part of the beach that remote....in miami?
-jules is crying....because she regrets bringing her sister to the island.
-when rachel says you don't have to do this, he might find out....i think rachel is refering to the others. Possibly ben.
-the hallway doesnt look like an apartment hallway...no numbers on the doors.
-Jules seemed sarcastic when saying its not sade for her to burn the candels....meaning nothing would happen.
-Jules also doesnt like her sister being in the hatch...."I don't llike you being here"
-Also i think ben said her sister an her can go free...not just her or that your sister is alive or something.

-oh and the hair. When she was in the hospital her hair got really really curly but it wasn't like that in the beginning scene.

just my 2 cents.