Herk and I were discussing the brainwashing scene and we now realized that this was exactly from Clockwork Orange. a 1970's cultlike book and movie

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Clockwork_Orange

That was exactly my thought when I saw that brilliant and chilling scene: "How very Clockwork Orange!!!", (and I said as much in my first post in the "Loving It!" thread). Looks like A Clockwork Orange is the new must-read book for LOST fans *lol*...along with A Brief History of Time.

Interesting note: The main character's name in A Clockwork Orange is Alex!

edited to add: another interesting note: IMHO, we now know, based on that scene, without a shadow of a doubt that the Others--at least the top brass of the Others who run the show--are evil with a capital NOT "good people"! Just as I suspected many moons ago in my "Sinister Utopia" thread, these are some baaaaad, bad people who are not to be tangled with. Run, hide or die!

Visually, it's a similar setup, but we've yet to learn enough about the experiment to know how much it's like the one in Clockwork Orange. In CO, the patient was given medication to induce extreme nausea. This combined with horrific imagery of violence, rape and pornography that the subject was forced to watch to make the subject associate the nausea with the horrific acts, thus ostensibly curing him of the violent tendencies.

One thing is for sure, the video has given us a lot to talk about for a long time to come.

And Lockefan, hate to say it, but I remain unconvinced that the Others are not, in fact, the "good guys." I reserve judgment until I know what their real motivations are.

I reopened the thread..please keep the discussion on the Clockwork Orange angle if you would.

Thanks BaileysDad...U know we love ya!!!!

Now onto the book...according to Wikipedia....

Alex (Known as Alex DeLarge in the Kubrick film)- The main character and, as he so puts it 'Your Humble Narrator'. The leader of his gang and an only child sent to several child reform schools only to return unchanged and on the streets every night with his Droogs.

I loved the fact that ther main character is Alex and well Alex's boyfriend was being brainwashed here....If Benry is the leader of the group on the island can we conclude that he wants his "daughter" (see other discussions about that one biological or adopted) to be the next leader of the "gang" because she has evil tendencies? Could they think o f her as evil because she is always getting into trouble???

Its been awhile since I watched A Clockwork Orange, but does anyone remember what the fundamental differences between the gangs was? Perhaps this may shed some light by providing a parallel to the show....

Visually, it's a similar setup, but we've yet to learn enough about the experiment to know how much it's like the one in Clockwork Orange. In CO, the patient was given medication to induce extreme nausea. This combined with horrific imagery of violence, rape and pornography that the subject was forced to watch to make the subject associate the nausea with the horrific acts, thus ostensibly curing him of the violent tendencies.

They also played his favourite music - Beethoven - as a 'soundtrack' to the imagery RB describes. This ensured he would always associate Beethoven with the violent images, so would be unable to listen to it because of the nauseous feelings it induced.

Just thought I'd add that in as there was loud music playing when Alex, Kate and Sawyer rescued Karl.

Looks like I'll be digging out my old copy of CO...:biggrin:

Its been awhile since I watched A Clockwork Orange, but does anyone remember what the fundamental differences between the gangs was? Perhaps this may shed some light by providing a parallel to the show....

I only saw the movie recently. I heard the book is much better which I tend to believe as I was not impressed with the movie style, but the story was fascinating.

HH I don't remember there being more than one gang. I do remember that Alex who was brainwashed later runs into his old chums who are now cops and they exact revenge on him and he can't fight back.

I only saw the movie recently. I heard the book is much better which I tend to believe as I was not impressed with the movie style, but the story was fascinating.
Oh man, I hated the movie. :yucky: I highly recommend the book though. One of the most interesting things about it is Burgess' use of language.

Oh man, I hated the movie. :yucky: I highly recommend the book though. One of the most interesting things about it is Burgess' use of language.
I agree, the film also looks dated now - very 70s kitsch. I too preferred the book - love the slang that Burgess invented for Alex and his droogs.

On a side note, the Royal Shakespeare Company did a production of ACO some years ago now with Phil Daniels (Jimmy in Quadrophenia) as Alex. U2 collaborated on the music. /off topic useless piece of information :redface:

Books are almost always better than films made from them, but -- sorry, y'all -- "A Clockwork Orange" is so perfectly and brilliantly and beautifully Kubrick! I can't imagine any other director of that era being so true to Burgess' use of language -- even when he strayed a bit from the exact plot -- and Malcolm McDowell was born to play Alex. I can't re-read the book without hearing McDowell's voice narrating it. Right right.

That was exactly my thought when I saw that brilliant and chilling scene: "How very Clockwork Orange!!!", (and I said as much in my first post in the "Loving It!" thread). Looks like A Clockwork Orange is the new must-read book for LOST fans *lol*...along with A Brief History of Time.

Interesting note: The main character's name in A Clockwork Orange is Alex!

edited to add: another interesting note: IMHO, we now know, based on that scene, without a shadow of a doubt that the Others--at least the top brass of the Others who run the show--are evil with a capital NOT "good people"! Just as I suspected many moons ago in my "Sinister Utopia" thread, these are some baaaaad, bad people who are not to be tangled with. Run, hide or die!

Thank you.

Luv,

Vilya (Kelisha*)

I only saw the movie recently. I heard the book is much better which I tend to believe as I was not impressed with the movie style, but the story was fascinating.
Oh yes, this is one of those many cases in which the book is soooooooooooooooooo much better than the movie!

And Lockefan, hate to say it, but I remain unconvinced that the Others are not, in fact, the "good guys." I reserve judgment until I know what their real motivations are.
Thing is, no matter what their motivations are (even if, say, they sincerely, truly believe that this little brainwashing session might make Karl into a "good person", worthy of Otherliness), the very fact that they employed such sophisticated, chilling and downright evil mind control techniques proves to me beyond a shadow of a doubt that the people in power within the "Other Organization" (not necessarily all of the Others, but the ones in power, issuing the orders and deciding on the methods) are some cold, Orwellian, fascistic, evil people. The means in this case do not justify the ends, even if they think their ends are noble. Again I say, too Clockwork Orange for me. I'm with Alex: I'm outta there! Alex truly is a "good person". It's all about choices.

Books are almost always better than films made from them, but -- sorry, y'all -- "A Clockwork Orange" is so perfectly and brilliantly and beautifully Kubrick! I can't imagine any other director of that era being so true to Burgess' use of language -- even when he strayed a bit from the exact plot -- and Malcolm McDowell was born to play Alex. I can't re-read the book without hearing McDowell's voice narrating it. Right right.

There is seemingly another nod to Kubrick in this episode. My friend pointed out (before the ACO scene) that the OR scene in which Ben's voice is slow and flat sounds eerily like HAL in "2001: A Space Odyssey." Then Jack and Tom leave the the room and watch as a conversation was held - just like when the astronauts are trying to hide their discussion from the evil HAL. Interesting.

What if the intention of the experiment was the achieve the opposite of what was going on in CO? We can almost safely assume(term relative to LOST, of course) that the Others have evil intentions and are killers, etc. So, what if the nauseating medicine was used as they were showing Alex's boyfriend positive images; thus making him sick at the thought of being nice or happy. This would fit into the current perception of the others and what they are capable of. I dont remember seeing any negative images in the film, so maybe it was the opposite effect they were desiring.

I loved the book and the movie!!! I covered the book in one of those fun literature classes in college. I think there are three themes her to discuss: the enviornmental similarities between Lost and the movie, violence, and numbers.

Lets talk violence. In CO there were two solutions to violence. The one droggey was brainwashed into non-violence. He therefore became a victim of violence who was unable to defend himself (I wonder if this will happen to Karl). The other two droggies (IMHO) found socially-acceptable ways to continue their violence without penalty. They became policemen. They beat-up the bad people only. (Just like they are the "good" guys who are allowed to kill "bad" people.

Let's talk numbers: Only available in the British book (the American version was changed - the author stands by the British one). The chapter numbers and numbers in general are an important consideration during analysis of the book's meaning.