After last week's episode, much discussion centered around whether or not the Losties are looping through time, and what turning the key had to do with it.

Tonight, I think we got a huge confirmation that this has happened, as least once. Desmond has clearly been through it all before.

One question I have now is - how many times has this happend before? Are we on iteration number 2?

And will Charlie survive the iteration?

This is the sixth iteration and the Matrix will now reboot :coolorng:

Is the Loop Theory similar to a Moebius loop??? I remember back in Season 1 someone had a loop theory and specifically referenced a Moebius loop where the same things happen over and over again. There might be slight changes but the essential pattern is set. Am I close at all? :confused:

Well, hard to say if you are close Tabby, so we are obviously only guessing at it. But I find that idea both simple to understand (good visual) but also frustrating. Would that mean this loop would go on forever? Will there be no end?

I started to discuss this having to deal with string theory also.;.....another looping around theory...

here is the thread that deals with the same you guys are talking about...

http://thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=69278

I like this theory of time looping, but I'm not quite convinced of it yet. Due to exposure to an extreme amount of magnetism, Desmond might just have relived those moments of his life before returning to the Island. Of course, this time looping theory supports how Desmond knows what it going to happen...but only related to Charlie's death...Hmm....

Can you explain to me how the time loop was confirmed? I know Desmond saw another version of his past and he tried to change the outcome and couldn't, but how do we know there is a loop? He's now back in the present, are we assuming he's also experienced the entire island future before and that's how he knows Charlie dies?

not sure im ready to buy in to the time loop yet.
he knows things are about to happen as if he remembers them, he talked to charlie in the flashback as if he knew him, but charlie wasnt looping and didnt remeber.

I think they ALL may be looping... which is how Locke knew it was going to rain in Season 1 and Juliet knew her ex-husband was going to get run over by a bus. And I'm sure now there's a million other examples of this. Walt being "special", Jack knowing he would need to hear the Fear story, etc, etc.

The only difference here is Desmond is aware of it.

not sure im ready to buy in to the time loop yet.
he knows things are about to happen as if he remembers them, he talked to charlie in the flashback as if he knew him, but charlie wasnt looping and didnt remeber.

Yeah, why is that???? :confused:

The only issue I have with the Time Theory is Desmond only experienced these memories and flashes for a short time - when the Swan imploded.

I think they ALL may be looping... which is how Locke knew it was going to rain in Season 1 and Juliet knew her ex-husband was going to get run over by a bus. And I'm sure now there's a million other examples of this. Walt being "special", Jack knowing he would need to hear the Fear story, etc, etc.

The only difference here is Desmond is aware of it.


ALSO, why Penny knows where to "look" for Desmond via magnetic anomoly (or however you spell it) from the end of last season. Oooooooooooooo.............!

Of course its a time loop........Read the Dark Tower series.

Can you explain to me how the time loop was confirmed? I know Desmond saw another version of his past and he tried to change the outcome and couldn't, but how do we know there is a loop? He's now back in the present, are we assuming he's also experienced the entire island future before and that's how he knows Charlie dies?
Well, in all fairness, I said "I think" it was confirmed. But it's only if we choose to believe Desmond's flashbacks were accurate.

He could be all screwed up by the EM blast, and just now incorrectly remembering that he flashed forward to the future.

I don't think Charlie not "remembering" him in London means that much. If we believe what we saw, then only certain people have this gift.

Well, in all fairness, I said "I think" it was confirmed. But it's only if we choose to believe Desmond's flashbacks were accurate.

He could be all screwed up by the EM blast, and just now incorrectly remembering that he flashed forward to the future.

I don't think Charlie not "remembering" him in London means that much. If we believe what we saw, then only certain people have this gift.

So, does this mean that Desmond "broke the loop" and they are now in unchartered territory??

It seems that they are not since he is still "remembering things" that haven't happened yet.

Am I just not smart enough to understand this? :confused:

Is there a loop within a loop, and Desmond is out of the first one and still in the second?

How about when Walt came to Shannon? Or when Mrs. Klugh said to Michael, "Has Walt ever been somewhere he was not supposed to be," or something like that. I always thought they meant he was projecting himself, but maybe they just mean "time traveling" or whatever you want to call it.

I finally feel like I can get through some of the show's mysteries!

When he said "I woke up in the jungle like this" and hurley gives him his clothes, that was RIGHT after he'd been hit in the head with a bat.
WHAT DOES IT ALL MEAN!??!?!?

So, does this mean that Desmond "broke the loop" and they are now in unchartered territory??
I don't get the impression that this is the case yet. So far, everything seems to have repeated itself at least once before. Nothing has gone differently.

That's why I think it is at least the second iteration, but I suppose it could be a lot more than that.

Well, hard to say if you are close Tabby, so we are obviously only guessing at it. But I find that idea both simple to understand (good visual) but also frustrating. Would that mean this loop would go on forever? Will there be no end?Well i recall an episode of Star Trek :TNG of when the crew were stuck in a time loop, But each time they relived it, they would leave a clue for the Next loop, so that the "Future" crew would try to figure out that they were in a loop and figure out a solution before it happened again :P.

So perhaps something similar will happen, and they will eventually figure out a solution to leave the loop.

I don't get the impression that this is the case yet. So far, everything seems to have repeated itself at least once before. Nothing has gone differently.

That's why I think it is at least the second iteration, but I suppose it could be a lot more than that.

But if the end of the iteration is when Des turns the failsafe, then the iteration starts over with him lying in red paint... then he has broke out of the first iteration.

But the thing is, he's still "remembering" things that haven't happened yet (lighting bolts), so maybe there's a loop within a loop and he's currently in the second loop.

I dunno, it's all so abstract my brain hurts :)

I think they ALL may be looping... which is how Locke knew it was going to rain in Season 1 and Juliet knew her ex-husband was going to get run over by a bus. And I'm sure now there's a million other examples of this. Walt being "special", Jack knowing he would need to hear the Fear story, etc, etc.

The only difference here is Desmond is aware of it.

Ok, maybe. And I like that. Going with this: is the reason we have the Flashbacks in this series to set up the idea of everyone having these "flashes"? Everyone is experiencing the loop but Des is more aware because of his turning the failsafe key?

I'm not convinced of the time loop, though. How does one start the loop over? Where does it "end"? I was wondering if Desmond has reached a new dimension--being able to experience past, present and future all at the same time. This would not be a time loop. This would be near omniscience ("near" because he only sees "flashes", except for when he had this one long "flashback" in this episode.)

So confused.

I still don't buy the time loop theory. I think both Desmond and that woman are psychics but Desmonds visions come to him as memories instead of something that is about to happen.

The naked thing still doesn't make sense to me. :shrug: If he woke up naked in his flat in the pool of paint, yeah that would make sense, but not afterwards...

I love the idea that they're all in a time loop and that the losties are constantly course-correcting their own lives.

The naked thing.... I remember Arnold in Terminator showing up naked after his travel through time... Why not naked going to the past though.... That is a good question.

ALSO, why Penny knows where to "look" for Desmond via magnetic anomoly (or however you spell it) from the end of last season. Oooooooooooooo.............!

Good thinking. How many times has Des gone through this loop? On one trip through he told Penny what to look for becasue he knew he was going to turn the fail safe key.

I still don't buy the time loop theory. I think both Desmond and that woman are psychics but Desmonds visions come to him as memories instead of something that is about to happen.

The naked thing still doesn't make sense to me. :shrug: If he woke up naked in his flat in the pool of paint, yeah that would make sense, but not afterwards...
While we don't know enough yet to know how this will play out in the end, I've just accepted Desmond waking up naked in the jungle as a dramatic device--it generally symbolizes rebirth. Since we don't have anything else concrete on that, I expect, IMO, it was symbolic.
100%
Ok, maybe. And I like that. Going with this: is the reason we have the Flashbacks in this series to set up the idea of everyone having these "flashes"? Everyone is experiencing the loop but Des is more aware because of his turning the failsafe key?
I think there is something else to Desmond... the key to him isn't that he turned the key. Reason being, Locke, Eko, and Charlie were all in the very near vicinity when Des blew it all sky-high (Lock practically right on top of Desmond's crawlspace, Eko just outside the blast door, and Charlie just down the hall.) Eko, Locke, and Desmond basically all took a direct hit, and would have been subjected to nearly the same forces. IMO, there is something different at work in Desmond here.

I think they ALL may be looping... which is how Locke knew it was going to rain in Season 1 and Juliet knew her ex-husband was going to get run over by a bus. And I'm sure now there's a million other examples of this. Walt being "special", Jack knowing he would need to hear the Fear story, etc, etc.

The only difference here is Desmond is aware of it.

Very interesting. This will change the whole purpose of the flashback from now on.

I don't know if I buy the loop thing. It seems to me, Desmond life flashed before his eyes when he turned the key, and he was reliving it, but he couldn't change anything. The other thing is, it didn't stop flashing when it caught up to him turning the key, it kept going, showing him what was going to happen.

I don't know if I buy the loop thing. It seems to me, Desmond life flashed before his eyes when he turned the key, and he was reliving it, but he couldn't change anything. The other thing is, it didn't stop flashing when it caught up to him turning the key, it kept going, showing him what was going to happen.

But he did change something...The bartender getting hit in the face with the bat. In the "flash" or second time through, if you will, Des yells duck and the guy misses the bartender and hits Des instead. Did this event change anything in the future?

I agree on the issue of his life keeps flashing past the present.

I don't know if I buy the loop thing. It seems to me, Desmond life flashed before his eyes when he turned the key, and he was reliving it, but he couldn't change anything. The other thing is, it didn't stop flashing when it caught up to him turning the key, it kept going, showing him what was going to happen.

Exactly!! They told us what happened to him. He saw his life flash before his eyes. While he was unconscious, he "re-lived" the events which brought him to the island. We got his Flashback but in a different way than any of the other FB's. When he woke up, he could still see the flashes. Whatever happened to him when he turned the key (hopefully we will find that out too) caused that. Everything that happened in the past for Desmond was in his mind. The old woman was his subconscious, telling him to essentially wake up and live his life. I like that we think these things through, but sometimes, we over do it. It was a pretty straightforward episode IMO.

My iniatial reaction was Des somehow went back into his past from the blast and relived his life from when he woke up from falling as he painted.

Island Des woke up back up and can now see the future in Island time. It's unclear, with just flashes, but he can have glimpses.

But I think I agree with you guys now?

I dont know lol

But that woman told him why she didn't save the guy with the red shoes, because he would have died in those other ways. As if she had tried to save him over and over, Sounds like this is going on for a while. But this was the first time Desmond made a change, by buying the ring. She was surprised that he would do that, like they've been through it over and over. But this time he is aware. And right on that he changed the bartender being hit. Turning that key brought on this awareness.

I, too, think Desmond was just unconsious and "re-lived" the events of his past. Two clues: "Make Your Own Kind of Music" song playing on the juke box, and the timer warning from the button that was coming from the microwave. Both sounds were brought from the present and incorporated into his "re-lived" past.

An important thing to consider is that Des saved Charlie twice. Firstly, he saw the future and Charlie was hit by lightning, so Des changed the future by saving him with the golf club. Then Charlie died of drowning. Des saw this new future and took the measure to change it as well. If it's a time loop, Des has definitely been in the loop at least two times. If Des' life flashed before him once when he turned the key, he would only have seen Charlie being electrocuted and not drowning. So Des is now seeing flashes of the future that can change, if he alters the events he sees. (Did this post make sense?)

I think they ALL may be looping... which is how Locke knew it was going to rain in Season 1 and Juliet knew her ex-husband was going to get run over by a bus. And I'm sure now there's a million other examples of this. Walt being "special", Jack knowing he would need to hear the Fear story, etc, etc.

The only difference here is Desmond is aware of it.

This is an interesting perspective, will have to ponder this after my brain cools down and I scrape the burnt crusts off.

Some aren't sure of the time loop thing. But I'm positive it's not happening. Perhaps the only exception is with Desmond's long "flashback" where some things change. With the failsafe key he sees flashes before his eyes. He seems so certain Charlie is going to die, but only based on what the Lady in the Shop told him.

The problem I have with this theory is at what age is he "remembering from?"

1) Example: Let's say Desmond, now 40 (that's a guess) is remembering his situation of Penelope based off his memory from the point he turned the key.
Well if that's the case, and there is a time loop, an older Desmond would be remembering Charlie's "death" from another "key-turning" point. If there is indeed a time-loop he would be remembering from a point when he will be older.

2) Assuming he were to be going in a time-loop, he would in his second time-loop (third try) propose to Penelope rather than break up with her.

3) I doubt this would be considered spoilerish, but just in case Damon and Carlton said this type of flashback device was used "in a way we never have used before and never will again" - Entertainment Weekly (http://bp2.blogger.com/_RrObyQ3XzcY/RdAvGdC3mlI/AAAAAAAAA6Q/Laiply3qb_o/s1600-h/ew02-4.jpg). If that's the case, I doubt they will revisit Desmond's "time-loop" and therefore, Desmond would be relied upon for certain events

Edit: For Daybreak fans (the show that got canceled, which was supposed to air during the Lost hiatus) Desmond should have helped out Hopper solve the murder mystery. Man, I wish they would have finished the show.

It came to me that this would have to be at least the 3rd iteration because Desmond saw charlie die twice and saved him both times. OR, Desmond is continually seeing the "new future" whenever he changes something. If the latter is true, we could still be on the 2nd iteration.

"See ya in another life brother"....all makes much more sense now. I kinda hope there is some huge time story idea here behind lost, but the spoiler above from TPTB gets me rethinking that.

wow great ideas in this thread.

I think it would be an incredible revelation somewhere down the line to have someone, in one of their normal flashback episodes to all of a sudden realize their future events in the middle of the flashback not unlike Desmond did today. But with no forewarning to the viewers. Say for example Jack is flashing back to an operation he is performing precrash and looks at the BP monitor to see 108 and all of a sudden he gets an image of the hatch within his flashback...he starts to get confused and flustered. Of course my head would explode at that point...since that would change....literally everything.


2. As for a temporal loop. I'm leaning to it actually existing more than it not existing. Imagine life's path not as straight linear, but more as circular, going round and round. Then imagine the island, or perhaps things on the island being a dot in the middle of that circle. Detonation of the previously contained magnetic field literally pulled Desmond (as a magnet would do) out of the circle and giving him to remote view himself at any point in that circle which would be several life events.

Of course he hasn't mastered the ability nor can he control it. But events happening in the past, present and future all have the capacity to go on with his external knowledge.


The question is did this happen to other LOSTIES. Is merely BEING on this island enough to pull someone out of their circular life loop? Giving them a chance to reflect back on all their life's actions and mistakes? This dot in the center of the circle (aka island) would also have redemptive properties. Which we see in several character storylines. For some, the redemptions lead them to their end point and they die. For others....They don't, perhaps because they are destined to a higher purpose...What that is and who defines it, may be the path for the rest of the show.

Ha Ha

We've been discussing this Time Loop theory for a week or so in the Spoiler section and all credit has to go to Cardielost for comming up with it :biggrin:

This is very reminicent of the Kurt Vonnegut novel Slaughter House Five where the main Character Billy Pilgrim lives his life out of order jumping from his future to his past back and forward giving him a very unique prospective.

It also ties in very nicely with the whole Buddist concept of Dharma and Karma, instead of being reborn over and over again until you reach spiritual redemption as in Buddism what if the Island allows the Losties to relive their lives over and over again until they find redemption

and

This was the same properties the Dharma were looking to use to save humanity, to use the time loop to alter the core values of the valenzetti equation.

It is the time loop that has pulled all the characters together in the past.

Kelvin had been through the time loop, hence his comments to Sayid in Iraq.

Also what about Eko, he failed to save his brother, he failed to redeem himself so he was killed by the smoke monster. In the last scene we saw him walk away with Yemi and I guess we assumed that he had found his peace but actually he had looped back to the start of the loop to try again.

This is why Hurley knew Libby from a previous loop, why Locke knew where Charlies guitar was in The Moth, how Goodwin knew where to find Bernard in The Other 48 Days

Sorry if this seems disjointed I am writing as I think :biggrin:
100%
Oh and wasn't the original working title for Lost - The Circle :biggrin:

Randomly, wasn't Sawyer at one point reading A Wrinkle in Time?

Randomly, wasn't Sawyer at one point reading A Wrinkle in Time?

Good Call

I feel that the only way to resolve the question of whether Desmond physically passed back intime or it was in his mind is to ask TPTB - they will give us some obscure answer no doubt but it's worth a try.

so if everyone is reliving experiences and desmond is the only one who is aware of it, does that also apply to other people who are not on the island? that's the only way i can buy this, i have a hard time thinking only the people on the island are going through time loops.

could it have affected the psychic who told claire she HAD to be on that flight?

has this affected the others at all? are they aware of it, as in when mrs. klugh asked if walt had been anywhere else?

indeed, it does explain a lot of walt's psychic powers BUT he had powers even before they got onto the island (ie when the bird hit the window and he was reading about birds) so that idea is not foolproof.

finally: if penny knew where to look for the EM blast, it might mean that desmond told her about it in one of his 'iterations' AND she believes him BUT she's not going through the same thing? however, it also means that even though in that particular iteration he didn't change his actions in terms of marrying her, etc, he DID make a big change in telling her about the island so she could look for it. what does that mean? how does that affect the woman's claim that if he altered the chain of events everyone would die?

this episode blew my mind.

It came to me that this would have to be at least the 3rd iteration because Desmond saw charlie die twice and saved him both times.
Yeah, I think this is right actually. I hadn't thought of Charlie's near death experiences each equalling one loop. Does that mean that we also have to include the plane crash (which Desmond arguable caused in some way, actually) and his hanging by Ethan (which had nothing to do with Desmond)?

Kelvin had been through the time loop, hence his comments to Sayid in Iraq.

Also what about Eko, he failed to save his brother, he failed to redeem himself so he was killed by the smoke monster. In the last scene we saw him walk away with Yemi and I guess we assumed that he had found his peace but actually he had looped back to the start of the loop to try again.

This is why Hurley knew Libby from a previous loop, why Locke knew where Charlies guitar was in The Moth, how Goodwin knew where to find Bernard in The Other 48 Days
EXCELLENT POINTS. Thanks DA! No wonder Hurley was having such deja vu. Of course - can they each be in a different loop? Shouldn't they all be in the same one at the same time? Maybe Eko didn't loop back, but actually stopped looping completely?

This simply has to be *at the very least* Desmond's 3rd iteration of the time loop. He knows Charlie gets struck by lightning and dies, so he builds his lightning rod and saves his life - then two days later Charlie dies saving Claire.

That means that this would be at least the 2nd iteration. Charlie gets struck by lightning is number ONE, Charlie gets saved by Desmond then dies saving Claire is TWO. So Desmond saving Charlie with the lightning rod then saving Claire would be THREE.

Of course, this doesnt account for the unlimited amount of times it could have happened before. But there are at least 3 alternate universes floating out there now.

Pardon my ignorance of time loops, but if Desmond (and potentially others) are in a time loop at what point does the loop begin and end? From when he fell off the ladder when he was painting to when he turned the failsafe key? If that's the case, then how is he experiencing life on the island post-hatch implosion (turning the failsafe key) and how can see the future (saving Charlie)? If the loop occurs after the point when he turns the failsafe key, why did he go back when he turned the failsafe key?

The loop theory also fits in with Flan o Brians - Third Policeman, amazingly well!

Pardon my ignorance of time loops, but if Desmond (and potentially others) are in a time loop at what point does the loop begin and end? From when he fell off the ladder when he was painting to when he turned the failsafe key? If that's the case, then how is he experiencing life on the island post-hatch implosion (turning the failsafe key) and how can see the future (saving Charlie)? If the loop occurs after the point when he turns the failsafe key, why did he go back when he turned the failsafe key?

Well strictly speaking a circle doesn't have a beginning or an end but I see what your saying - how much time does the loop encapsulate - in Groundhog day it was 24 hours and Bill Murray's character remembered, in this case it is years and maybe even decades and with the exception on Desmond there is no (or virtually no memory of previous loops)

Pardon my ignorance of time loops, but if Desmond (and potentially others) are in a time loop at what point does the loop begin and end? From when he fell off the ladder when he was painting to when he turned the failsafe key? If that's the case, then how is he experiencing life on the island post-hatch implosion (turning the failsafe key) and how can see the future (saving Charlie)? If the loop occurs after the point when he turns the failsafe key, why did he go back when he turned the failsafe key?

The failsafe key-turning is a loop within a loop.

In other words, Desmond's loop starts at his ladder mishap and ends at some point in the future - we havent seen when he truly "wakes up" in the right time. The failsafe key simply re-started his loop - it didnt cause it. In other words, in each time loop, Desmond leaves Pen, goes to the island, pushes the button, turns the key, starts over, gets hit in the face in his "past", wakes up, saves charlie, etc - until a point in the future at which point he loops over again, leaves Pen, goes to the island, pushes the button, turns the key, starts over, gets hit in the face in his "past", wakes up, saves charlie, etc.

His loop hasnt ended yet. We haven't seen the full loop - just a reboot halfway through from the key.

Edit: For Daybreak fans (the show that got canceled, which was supposed to air during the Lost hiatus) Desmond should have helped out Hopper solve the murder mystery. Man, I wish they would have finished the show.
Sk8rpro--they DID finish the show (I too enjoyed Daybreak.) All but the final episode are currently up for viewing at abc.com. The finale will be posted next Monday. Happy viewing! :biggrin:

I think Charlie has been cheating death longer than just before the Lightning strike. As far as we know Charlie has cheated death in the follwing events:

1) He got up from his seat when the plane went down into the restroom. If he was in his seat he probably would have died

2) Jack saved his live when he was hung.

3) He probably should have been killed several times when the hatch emploded.

4) The lightning strike.

5) Going to save Claire.


Does he have 9 lives maybe?

I don't believe multiple iterations of a time loop are necessary for this episode to make sense.

The lady from the shop told Desmond that she didn't save the guy in the red shoes because the next day he would have died in a car accident, and if she had saved him from the car accident then the day after that he would have died some other way (or something to that effect). Her point was that it was his time to die, and that he was going to die one way or another regardless of her attempts to save him.

The same thing happened with Charlie. Desmond saved him from the lightning, so a short while later he also had to save him from drowning. If the guy in the red shoes and Charlie are parallel characters, then according to what the lady said, soon Charlie will be in a deathly situation again because it is just his time to go. Desmond can interfere only so many times before fate finally wins. In the lady's example, there were no time loops, just fate eventually winning the battle, even if people get in the way.

Pardon my ignorance of time loops, but if Desmond (and potentially others) are in a time loop at what point does the loop begin and end? From when he fell off the ladder when he was painting to when he turned the failsafe key? If that's the case, then how is he experiencing life on the island post-hatch implosion (turning the failsafe key) and how can see the future (saving Charlie)? If the loop occurs after the point when he turns the failsafe key, why did he go back when he turned the failsafe key?
I think you make the case that what we saw wasn't a time loop, or time travel, at all, Alvar. Just a jumbled flashback, mixed memories, perhaps with active interference by the island (if the monster could manifest as Yemi... and Kate's horse... Jack's dad... Dave... then it's not unlikely it could communicate with Desmond in his mind/memories.) The more last night's episode sifts through my grey matter, the more I'm backing away from any kind of time loop, and you point out one key reason. If Desmond is sent back when he turns the failsafe key, then how is he sitting on the beach now, post-failsafe? And if he forked off into another Desmond, in an alternate universe or another dimension or something, then you somehow have to explain how this Desmond has the memories of all the alternate Desmonds looping around in time...

I just don't know what to think. Notice in this screencap the "fresh-paint" spill. There's a fainter red stain above this that might indicate a previous spill. From a previous iteration? I mean.....would there be "evidence" like this showing from a previous loop? I don't know...maybe Des is just a really sloppy painter. :smile:

http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=1250&pos=263

There's no loop. Desmond had a regular, real flashback. He didn't REMEMBER those things happening. Those were his precognitions (in the flashbacks), but he didn't know what they were yet! He thought that he remembered Charlie from the hatch, but the truth is that he had a precognition of Charlie in the hatch. He had precognitions of all that stuff happening on the island in his life before, but he didn't know what they meant. He thought they were memories, things that had happened before, but no: they were things that were going to happen in the FUTURE; they were precognitions. He didn't realize that until later.

I just don't know what to think. Notice in this screencap the "fresh-paint" spill. There's a fainter red stain above this that might indicate a previous spill. From a previous iteration? I mean.....would there be "evidence" like this showing from a previous loop? I don't know...maybe Des is just a really sloppy painter. :smile:

http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=1250&pos=263


No, remember, Desmond has looped back in time not the paint ;)

Island Des woke up back up and can now see the future in Island time. It's unclear, with just flashes, but he can have glimpses.



I think you may be onto something. I kind of have an idea but it's not fleshed out. Maybe someone can fill in the blanks. Let's say there is a time loop. Let's also say that Des already lived this life at least once. It has been theorized that the Island is on a different time that the rest of the world. What if the button that had to be pressed every 108 minutes was to keep the island time moving slower than the rest of the world. Like the Island is not on a hourly clock of 60 minutes, but of 108 minutes. That would make it a difference of 48 minutes for every "hour." It would also seem that somehow that this time through the loop Des has been offset so that he is no longer in sync with the loop. Probably a step ahead of it.

Like I said, there seems to be missing parts so I can't tie it all together. But I am convinced that 1)there is a time loop and 2) the island time is different from time in the rest of the world.

There's no loop. Desmond had a regular, real flashback. He didn't REMEMBER those things happening. Those were his precognitions, but he didn't know what they were yet! He thought that he remembered Charlie from the hatch, but the truth is that he had a precognition of Charlie in the hatch. He had precognitions of all that stuff happening on the island in his life before, but he didn't know what they meant. He thought they were memories, things that had happened before, but no: they were things that were going to happen in the FUTURE; they were precognitions. He didn't realize that until later.

Well Remus, the consensus seems to be split down the middle but the Time Loop theory has a lot more credibility than it did 24 hours ago. I have but a question to Carlton and Damon to see if I can get a clue to which theory is correct (I'm obviosly not expecting a straight answer :biggrin: )

There's no loop. Desmond had a regular, real flashback. He didn't REMEMBER those things happening. Those were his precognitions (in the flashbacks), but he didn't know what they were yet! He thought that he remembered Charlie from the hatch, but the truth is that he had a precognition of Charlie in the hatch. He had precognitions of all that stuff happening on the island in his life before, but he didn't know what they meant. He thought they were memories, things that had happened before, but no: they were things that were going to happen in the FUTURE; they were precognitions. He didn't realize that until later.

How does that explain both photographs?

ETA: I should add I am not fully on-board with a timeloop, but it's certainly possible within the context of the show. And so is "he was just learning how to develop his precog skills". Each are credible.

ETA: What photographs? Desmond and Penny's? Desmond had a photo and he took it on the island with him.

Well Remus, the consensus seems to be split down the middle but the Time Loop theory has a lot more credibility than it did 24 hours ago. I have but a question to Carlton and Damon to see if I can get a clue to which theory is correct (I'm obviosly not expecting a straight answer :biggrin: )

Ohh, the consensus should think as I do. I hate the time loop theory. VERY MUCH. :p

I hope Damon, Carlton or Gregg will point us to the right direction and not leave us talking about this -- I hate it that there are people who like the time loop theory and want to discuss it, because... I hate the time loop theory! :D

I think you may be onto something. I kind of have an idea but it's not fleshed out. Maybe someone can fill in the blanks. Let's say there is a time loop. Let's also say that Des already lived this life at least once. It has been theorized that the Island is on a different time that the rest of the world. What if the button that had to be pressed every 108 minutes was to keep the island time moving slower than the rest of the world. Like the Island is not on a hourly clock of 60 minutes, but of 108 minutes. That would make it a difference of 48 minutes for every "hour." It would also seem that somehow that this time through the loop Des has been offset so that he is no longer in sync with the loop. Probably a step ahead of it.

Like I said, there seems to be missing parts so I can't tie it all together. But I am convinced that 1)there is a time loop and 2) the island time is different from time in the rest of the world.

Yes that seems to make sense (I can already sense Remus preparing a post to disagree :biggrin: )

There's one thing about this that I don't understand. The lady in Desmond's flashback doesn't save the man in the red shoes b/c it was his "path," he was supposed to die. So then why does she tell Des he has to go to the island to turn the key or else "we all die"? If everyone is supposed to die, then what difference does it make if Des turns the key? If everyone is supposed to live, then according to her, they'll live no matter what b/c that's their path and the earth will course-correct itself. Just like she couldn't save the red shoe man b/c something else would get him anyway, then wouldn't everyone live b/c something or someone else would save them somehow?

Am I making sense?

As far as the time loop theory goes, where do the Others fit into this? Could this be why they seemed to be one step ahead of the Losties for so long?

I have not read everyone's responses in this thread so I apologize if this has been mentioned, but has anyone seen "The Butterfly Effect" with Ashton Kutcher? Desmond's experience seems to be quite similar to what Ashton's character in that movie was doing. The difference is, I don't think Desmond has any "control" over it.

[quote=Remus Lupin;1378320]ETA: What photographs? Desmond and Penny's? Desmond had a photo and he took it on the island with him.

Desmond does have the photo. But so does Penny. She has it on her nightstand in the scene where they show her in real time.

Am I making sense?




Yes you are making sense - I think it comes down to the need of the many outnumber the needs of the few - we don't know anything about the man in the red shoes but what could his death has achieved, maybe it stopped him killing someone in an RTA, maybe two people meet at his funeral who work together to conquer global warming, oh the posibilities are endless. However what Desmond is doing is somehow preventing the destruction of the species not just an individual. It is Desmonds 'destiny' just as it was for red shoes to die

As for the others, yes I think they loop, that's why they know so much, Ben maybe in a similar position to Desmond.

In regards to the Dark Tower and how Lost may end up ending as a series (Dark Tower ending spoiler follows):

The big thrust of the Dark Tower series was Roland's (the gunslinger) quest to find the dark tower and what lay within. During his quest, many of his friends died, he prevented the end of the world, and he participated in eliminating many evil characters.

Once Roland entered the dark tower and his quest was seeminly complete, he discovered an item (a horn) that he had discarded in his past that would possibly saved many of his friends lives. After discovering the horn, Roland was thrown back in time by the dark tower to a point somewhere before the series of books began. He was essentially trapped in the endless cycle of his quest for the tower but it was suggested that each time the loop began again, his journey would be better.

My thinking, at this point anyway, is that Lost is going to end with Jack waking up in the Jungle right after the crash. And like the Dark Tower series, something will have changed so that we will know things will be different.

Well, dalbrect, if you don't mind me saying, that would a perfect way to make the show jump the shark in the series finale. Which would suck.

I thought it was so simple. I thought it was crystal clear that Desmond was having flashbacks and that in his flashbacks he was having precognitions of his future and now it all makes sense to him and us, etc. etc.

There's no loop. Desmond had a regular, real flashback. He didn't REMEMBER those things happening. Those were his precognitions (in the flashbacks), but he didn't know what they were yet! He thought that he remembered Charlie from the hatch, but the truth is that he had a precognition of Charlie in the hatch. He had precognitions of all that stuff happening on the island in his life before, but he didn't know what they meant. He thought they were memories, things that had happened before, but no: they were things that were going to happen in the FUTURE; they were precognitions. He didn't realize that until later.

BINGO! the flashbacks and the episode make perfect sense withOUT having to assume a time loop, as long as we assume that desmond and the shopkeeper lady were both ALWAYS precognizant (i.e. the hatch implosion didn't make des psychic, he always was). des was foreseeing the events of the race, the island, etc., just as the ring lady was foreseeing des and penny, and the red shoe guy's death. humans have no reference point for seeing the future. we would interpret them as memories. that's why when des foresees the island, he mistakes it for having already been there. the whole "i've been here before" deja vu thing. the time loop is far too complicated the way it's being discussed here, what with trying to count iterations based on how many times des has saved charlie ("it has to be 2 iterations because charlie couldn't have drowned saving claire if he was already dead from the lightning strike"). the simpler explanation is that des just sees the future, as he always has, as he always will, even after he's altered it. occam's razor. the simplest solution is often the correct solution.

it also leaves alive the great theory that donovan-the-physicist will remember des' prediction about the island and the button, and he will tell penny once des disappears, thus leading to her search for him via the ice station.

it ALSO leaves alive the fantastic all-encompassing time-loop theory posited by cardielost in the spoiler section of this board.

--billy

I'm re-posting something I wrote earlier because i think it was skipped over. we have seen instances of people off the island knowing things they shouldn't. what are the implications of that?

>>
so if everyone is reliving experiences and desmond is the only one who is aware of it, does that also apply to other people who are not on the island? that's the only way i can buy this, i have a hard time thinking only the people on the island are going through time loops.

could it have affected the psychic who told claire she HAD to be on that flight?

has this affected the others at all? are they aware of it, as in when mrs. klugh asked if walt had been anywhere else?

indeed, it does explain a lot of walt's psychic powers BUT he had powers even before they got onto the island (ie when the bird hit the window and he was reading about birds) so that idea is not foolproof.

finally: if penny knew where to look for the EM blast, it might mean that desmond told her about it in one of his 'iterations' AND she believes him BUT she's not going through the same thing? however, it also means that even though in that particular iteration he didn't change his actions in terms of marrying her, etc, he DID make a big change in telling her about the island so she could look for it. what does that mean? how does that affect the woman's claim that if he altered the chain of events everyone would die?

this episode blew my mind.

[quote=Remus Lupin;1378320]ETA: What photographs? Desmond and Penny's? Desmond had a photo and he took it on the island with him.

Desmond does have the photo. But so does Penny. She has it on her nightstand in the scene where they show her in real time.

des could have made her a copy at british CVS in under 10 minutes and given it to her as she moved out of his flat.

--billy

Desmond describes it all as being flashes...before his eyes. I don't think he has actually lived any of it, only the knowledge of possibilities...a glimpse at another reality.

Well, dalbrect, if you don't mind me saying, that would a perfect way to make the show jump the shark in the series finale. Which would suck.

Is it possible to jump the shark on the very last episode? ;)

Desmond describes it all as being flashes...before his eyes. I don't think he has actually lived any of it, only the knowledge of possibilities...a glimpse at another reality.

Well that's the big debate isn't it - time to choose sides Time Loop or Flash Back:42fight: :hissy: :blowup: :argue: :hammer: :chair: :67hissy: :149: :cheeky-smiley-022: :rant: :deadhorse:

Well, dalbrect, if you don't mind me saying, that would a perfect way to make the show jump the shark in the series finale. Which would suck.

I think you are going to very disappointed in Lost then. The producers said there was going to be two jump the shark moments in the next 6 episodes and i'm wondering if this is the first signs of what one of them is going to be.


I thought it was so simple. I thought it was crystal clear that Desmond was having flashbacks and that in his flashbacks he was having precognitions of his future and now it all makes sense to him and us, etc. etc.

The "he was only having precognition in his flashback" doesn't stand up to the fact that he is having precognition on the island regarding Locke's speech, lightning, & drowning.

BINGO! the flashbacks and the episode make perfect sense withOUT having to assume a time loop, as long as we assume that desmond and the shopkeeper lady were both ALWAYS precognizant (i.e. the hatch implosion didn't make des psychic, he always was). des was foreseeing the events of the race, the island, etc., just as the ring lady was foreseeing des and penny, and the red shoe guy's death. humans have no reference point for seeing the future. we would interpret them as memories. that's why when des foresees the island, he mistakes it for having already been there. the whole "i've been here before" deja vu thing. the time loop is far too complicated the way it's being discussed here, what with trying to count iterations based on how many times des has saved charlie ("it has to be 2 iterations because charlie couldn't have drowned saving claire if he was already dead from the lightning strike"). the simpler explanation is that des just sees the future, as he always has, as he always will, even after he's altered it. occam's razor. the simplest solution is often the correct solution.

it also leaves alive the great theory that donovan-the-physicist will remember des' prediction about the island and the button, and he will tell penny once des disappears, thus leading to her search for him via the ice station.

it ALSO leaves alive the fantastic all-encompassing time-loop theory posited by cardielost in the spoiler section of this board.

--billy

Yes, it all makes sense to me that way now as well, without the time-loop. If that's what really happened, then were there evidences of that pre-cognition in some of the earlier episodes with Desmond, or perhaps the writers didn't think of it before this season?
100%
The "he was only having precognition in his flashback" doesn't stand up to the fact that he is having precognition on the island regarding Locke's speech, lightning, & drowning.

Yes it does, because he is STILL having those pre-cognitions!

BINGO! the flashbacks and the episode make perfect sense withOUT having to assume a time loop, as long as we assume that desmond and the shopkeeper lady were both ALWAYS precognizant (i.e. the hatch implosion didn't make des psychic, he always was). des was foreseeing the events of the race, the island, etc., just as the ring lady was foreseeing des and penny, and the red shoe guy's death. humans have no reference point for seeing the future. we would interpret them as memories. that's why when des foresees the island, he mistakes it for having already been there. the whole "i've been here before" deja vu thing. the time loop is far too complicated the way it's being discussed here, what with trying to count iterations based on how many times des has saved charlie ("it has to be 2 iterations because charlie couldn't have drowned saving claire if he was already dead from the lightning strike"). the simpler explanation is that des just sees the future, as he always has, as he always will, even after he's altered it. occam's razor. the simplest solution is often the correct solution.

it also leaves alive the great theory that donovan-the-physicist will remember des' prediction about the island and the button, and he will tell penny once des disappears, thus leading to her search for him via the ice station.

it ALSO leaves alive the fantastic all-encompassing time-loop theory posited by cardielost in the spoiler section of this board.

--billy
If we assume it was a normal flashback, and Desmond always had precog abilities, two things come to mind:
1. How is precognition explained? Why just Des and Ms Hawkings? And what about Ms Hawkings telling him about the previous times he had done this?
2. If his FB was historically accurate, why does Charlie have zero recollection of their meeting? I think this is the most basic thing to be asking of this theory. No way would he have not remembered that bizarre encounter when he ran into Desmond again on the island.

edit for grammar

You know, I actually agree with you now, Remus.

The idea is that the "flashbacks" in th show were actually "real time". All the island information during the episode are precognitions being had by Desmond when he was still dating Penny. So in reality, he actually ran up to Charlie on the street because in his mind he had seen himself in the hatch talking to him.

That makes a lot of sense too. The photograph thing is still not explained (I know there is always the "he had a copy made" option, but that wasn't shown), but I think you have an interesting approach to the story.

Honestly, I would rather have a time loop because its scientifically more feasible than "a guy who can see the future", but I like the idea of the episode being from his past perspective and seeing the island story.

The way i saw it, it was all in his head. That still doesn't explain how he can see into the future. But I'm pretty positive he never really went back in time, it was just like one of those dreams where you actually have control of the things you do in the dream, if you know what i mean. But still, this time thing is VERY interesting, and it just might be Dharma & Associates controlling it.

Of course its a time loop........Read the Dark Tower series.

Yes. You must read the Dark Tower books to understand the time loop. You could probably get away with just the last one if you don't care about the series, specifically the last few chapters of the final novel in the series "The Dark Tower." You'll have a better understanding of what is possible with the time loop. Cuse, Lindelof and J.J. Abrams are all huge fans of the book. So huge, in fact, that yesterday it came across the wire that J.J. may be up to produce and possibly direct the Dark Tower movies. From TV.com yesterday:


J.J. Abrams Abrams erecting Dark Tower?
By Colin Mahan - TV.com
February 14, 2007 at 02:43:00 PM | more stories by this author

Lost maven in talks to bring Stephen King epic to life.

And child J.J. to the Dark Tower came.

The Lost creator is reportedly in talks to possibly produce and/or direct a film version of Stephen King's epic book series The Dark Tower. A Tower movie has been rumored since the first novel was released in 1982, but the epic scope of the project has hindered many efforts.

The fantasy/Western book series spans seven novels as it tells the story of the last gunslinger--Rolande, a knight who protected the fabled land of Gilead--who wanders a postapocalyptic alternate universe in a quest to destroy the Dark Tower and the evil that dwells within it. Along the way, he collects a ragtag band of followers from various dimensions and time periods.

According to Hollywood Reporter, King is hoping a filmmaker with a strong vision can help the process along. The author is a self-professed fan of Lost and Abrams.

If you want the synopsis of the epilogue of the final book in the Dark Tower series, here it is from Wikipedia:
At this point, Stephen King inserts an "Afterword" which warns readers to close the book at this point, consider the story finished, and not venture inside the Tower with Roland. If the reader does not heed the warning, the story resumes with Roland climbing to the top of the Dark Tower. He encounters various rooms with siguls or signs of his past life. He reaches the top and opens the final door; to his horror, he realizes he has reached the Tower countless times before. He is sucked through the door only to be teleported back in time to the desert, ending the series where it began in the first line of book one: "The man in black fled across the desert, and the gunslinger followed." There is a slight twist, however; the memory of reaching the Tower quickly fades, yet Roland now somehow possesses the horn he had foolishly lost long ago during the battle of Jericho Hill. This subtle but significant change from the previous timeline further enforces the implication that Roland still has the opportunity to make different decisions and possibly break the cycle and find salvation.

I thought it was so simple. I thought it was crystal clear that Desmond was having flashbacks and that in his flashbacks he was having precognitions of his future and now it all makes sense to him and us, etc. etc.


Yes, I also thought it was pretty simple and straightforward. He had had a concussion, passed out, dreamed about his past. The conversation with the old lady is clearly a dream sequence. Maybe then he recognized his precog abilities. I with you on this point. No loop in this case. Not yet, except for the one Hurley feels excluded from.

I think this theory is complicates....but I likeeeeeee it!!!!

No loop in this case. Not yet, except for the one Hurley feels excluded from.
:rotflmao2: LOL

Very funny - but you're wrong of course (I have a strange feeling I've said this all before :biggrin: )

One question: if the FB was a real, accurate FB/memory of Des's...

then why does Charlie have no recollection of having met Desmond on the streetcorner?

Strange guy tells him he remembers him in a hatch with a computer pushing a button on a deserted island. Charlie ends up on a deserted island, probably about 7yrs later, with a hatch, entering #'s into a computer, and the guy living in said hatch is the guy he thought was nuts on that street corner years ago. I don't buy that none of this would resonate with Charlie.

I got the feeling that when Desmond looked into the hole where the hatch was, that didn't happen the last time he turned the key. Funny how photographs survive being blown up. Desmond/Sayid/Pictures from the crash of 815. Scratching my head.

The photograph thing is still not explained (I know there is always the "he had a copy made" option, but that wasn't shown), but I think you have an interesting approach to the story.

I can't recall from the episode, but is there any way that they just didn't make 2 copies of the photo when they orignally took the pictures?

2. If his FB was historically accurate, why does Charlie have zero recollection of their meeting? I think this is the most basic thing to be asking of this theory. No way would he have not remembered that bizarre encounter when he ran into Desmond again on the island.

You think that Charlie was thinking about what Desmond was saying? Obviously, Driveshaft was gone by that point, otherwise he wouldn't be doing street-playing, now would he? Maybe he just didn't want to lose the little reputation he had by collaborating with some madman. That was a very random encounter and Charlie could easily have forgotten all about it. Sure if Des brings it up, he could remember, but not without anything to trigger that memory.

I think you are going to very disappointed in Lost then. The producers said there was going to be two jump the shark moments in the next 6 episodes and i'm wondering if this is the first signs of what one of them is going to be.

They said we'd have a jump-the-shark moment around ep12 (that's Claire's ep). While this could be it, I really don't think it's going to be a time loop.

No loop in this case. Not yet, except for the one Hurley feels excluded from.

:24:24: Good one, annie! :biggrin:

Oh, and thanks for agreeing with me.

You know, I actually agree with you now, Remus.

Awesome! :)

That makes a lot of sense too. The photograph thing is still not explained (I know there is always the "he had a copy made" option, but that wasn't shown), but I think you have an interesting approach to the story.

I didn't even know that there was anything mysterious with the protograph stuff. One of them made a copy, I guess. No mysteries there. Nothing to explain.

Honestly, I would rather have a time loop because its scientifically more feasible than "a guy who can see the future", but I like the idea of the episode being from his past perspective and seeing the island story.

Neither of them are scientifically feasible, in my opinion, but "a guy who can see the future" is much more easier to understand and very viewer-friendly. You don't have to blow your brains up.

I don't read the board all the time, but I wanted to through this out there, and it is possible that this was mentioned by someone else (even in this thread I didn't read the whole thing.

But does anyone think that Jack could be "Jacob" travelling through time?

One question: if the FB was a real, accurate FB/memory of Des's...

then why does Charlie have no recollection of having met Desmond on the streetcorner?

Strange guy tells him he remembers him in a hatch with a computer pushing a button on a deserted island. Charlie ends up on a deserted island, probably about 7yrs later, with a hatch, entering #'s into a computer, and the guy living in said hatch is the guy he thought was nuts on that street corner years ago. I don't buy that none of this would resonate with Charlie.

Heroin is a hell of a drug...

One question: if the FB was a real, accurate FB/memory of Des's...

then why does Charlie have no recollection of having met Desmond on the streetcorner?

Strange guy tells him he remembers him in a hatch with a computer pushing a button on a deserted island. Charlie ends up on a deserted island, probably about 7yrs later, with a hatch, entering #'s into a computer, and the guy living in said hatch is the guy he thought was nuts on that street corner years ago. I don't buy that none of this would resonate with Charlie.

This could be seen as a "it was just some random weirdo that didnt stick with Charlie" incident, though. Believe me, I don't think it should be - in fact I think Desmond should simply ask Charlie if he remembers the encounter to prove that he can see the future.

But this is LOST. And unfortunately that incident can be treated that way until it's officially answered.

I got the feeling that when Desmond looked into the hole where the hatch was, that didn't happen the last time he turned the key.

Yes, I agree. What happens now that there's no failsafe key?

You think that Charlie was thinking about what Desmond was saying? Obviously, Driveshaft was gone by that point, otherwise he wouldn't be doing street-playing, now would he? Maybe he just didn't want to lose the little reputation he had by collaborating with some madman. That was a very random encounter and Charlie could easily have forgotten all about it. Sure if Des brings it up, he could remember, but not without anything to trigger that memory.

I think it's abundantly clear that this flashback took place BEFORE the Driveshaft era!

Wasn't Charlie in Australia to get his brother back on board with Driveshaft? We already know Des has been on the Island at least three years. We know that this FB occurred prior to Desmond's military service and jail time. Based on the time references in FBYE, it looks like it was probably around 1997. With current island time of December 2004, and depending on how you age Charlie, it's not unlikely that he hadn't even graduated high school at the time.

And I don't care how poor anyone's memory is... you end up in the EXACT situation as someone described to you years earlier, and the nut that told you he "remembered" you there is standing right in front of you...

Charlie can do heroin by the truckload, and I still can't believe he's not going to recognize some aspect of this.

Sure if Des brings it up, he could remember, but not without anything to trigger that memory.He got marooned on the island in a plane crash. Saw the hatch. The computer. The button. The same guy living in said hatch. One would have to accept that actually experiencing the traumatic events foretold would not be enough to trigger recollection, but if the crazy guy says to him, "hey--remember when I told you..." his memory would suddenly spring to life?

I would argue that living the events, and seeing the things he's seen, and the person who told him about them would be more than sufficient to "trigger that memory."

IMO, if this is a historically accurate memory of Desmond's, then we need a rational explanation for why it doesn't exist for Charlie. The simpler explanation is that Desmond (or the island) was inserting events into Desmond's memories as his life "flashed before his eyes." Even Desmond Hume, time traveler, would likely be a more consistent explanation, IMO...

I think they ALL may be looping... which is how Locke knew it was going to rain in Season 1 and Juliet knew her ex-husband was going to get run over by a bus. And I'm sure now there's a million other examples of this. Walt being "special", Jack knowing he would need to hear the Fear story, etc, etc.

The only difference here is Desmond is aware of it.

Great examples of this. I thought that all of their flashbacks may be similar to Desmond's - somehow in that they are really sharing a continuity with existence on the island. Whether or not it causation or correlation is questionable and may hold the key to the greater mystery.

Although I'm still skeptical about the whole time loop thing, and I really HOPE there is a better explanation, I do not think the "it was just a flashback" reasoning would work.

First of all, what's the chance that he would start having precog when hes 30+ years old. If it was a gift, wouldn't it probably have started earlier?

I can ignore the first point since it might not be very convincing ( it MAY be possible that his gift just happened to start after he was 30+ after all), but what about the times we saw Desmond on the Island And before the turning of the failsafe key? In the second season's first few eps, Desmond did not seem to act as if he could see the future. Did he not have a SINGLE flash of the future during this period? He was all 'oh no the computer's broken we are all going to die', wouldn't he know that the computer would be fixed?

Also, in the second season finale, when we see Desmond's flashbacks, how come he doesn't seem to have any flashes, not even one, then? He seemed to remember that he went on a boat race in this week's episode (I think, need to check it again), but nothing when we see him buying a boat off Libby. When he crashes on the Island, he didn't seem to remember Kelvin at all, even though we saw some flashes of Kelvin's head bleeding in this week's ep. Wouldn't he have told Kelvin anything?

So I'm still hoping that theres some totally different explanation for all this, but I bet im going to be dissapointed. This ep did not seem to answer some questions that I was hoping for (such as where Des's power comes from)

I suppose this might be a bit off topic, but whether Desmond is a time travller or psychic why does he feel so compelled to save Charlie? Why not Eko or Steve (or was it Scott) or Boone or Shannon or Ana or Libby or any of the other people who died on the island?

I am puzzled by a great many things with the time loop.

1) If Des is in a loop started at the blast, then his recollection would only extend up to the point when he turned the key. He is remebering details past this point. If the blast is what triggers the "loop entry" then could he have turn another key, we know there are other hatches? Maybe its when he gets knocked unconscious "the bat".

2) Another post talked about everyone in the proximity of the blast Locke, Charlie, Eco and Des. One is dead, another revieled to be on the road to death. Des is the bystander, does this mean Locke is next?

3) If Des is in a warp, he would remember somthing as significant as his hatch being opened by Locke and Jack ... He would know that they are friends or at least not going to harm him, why did he shoot at Jack?

4) Des would have known that when Locke and others began to push the button that he was going to return to the island, why would he take the boat and try and escape?


Just a couple of thoguhts!

BINGO! the flashbacks and the episode make perfect sense withOUT having to assume a time loop, as long as we assume that desmond and the shopkeeper lady were both ALWAYS precognizant (i.e. the hatch implosion didn't make des psychic, he always was). des was foreseeing the events of the race, the island, etc., just as the ring lady was foreseeing des and penny, and the red shoe guy's death. humans have no reference point for seeing the future. we would interpret them as memories. that's why when des foresees the island, he mistakes it for having already been there. the whole "i've been here before" deja vu thing. the time loop is far too complicated the way it's being discussed here, what with trying to count iterations based on how many times des has saved charlie ("it has to be 2 iterations because charlie couldn't have drowned saving claire if he was already dead from the lightning strike"). the simpler explanation is that des just sees the future, as he always has, as he always will, even after he's altered it. occam's razor. the simplest solution is often the correct solution.

it also leaves alive the great theory that donovan-the-physicist will remember des' prediction about the island and the button, and he will tell penny once des disappears, thus leading to her search for him via the ice station.

it ALSO leaves alive the fantastic all-encompassing time-loop theory posited by cardielost in the spoiler section of this board.

--billy

This is a very compelling post..
While Desmond has certainly shown some precognitive flashes since the hatch explosion.. I submit that the whole flashback in FBYE could simply be a very "feverish dream" due to the stress of the magnetic blast .. and here is why..

Let's travel back to season 2 when Desmond is first rescued on the beach by Kelvin
and then is being intoduced to the hatch, the button, etc. I haven't had a chance to go back and rewatch the episode, but, if I remember it correctly.. Desmond was quite
surprised by the whole new hatch environment.. he had to watch the films, learn about the button, learn about the failsafe key, learn about Kelvin's deception about "the sickness", etc. IF he actually had the precognitions shown in the FBYE flashbacks,
why would the hatch, button, failsafe key, etc seem so new and foreign to him in season 2?

The time loop theory and the pre-hatch explosion precognition just seem to be very shaky foundations to build upon for the future story arc of the show. Just too confusing to keep the larger audience "intrigued and involved".

Short term precognitive powers as just one of many side effects and consequences of the hatch explosion is an interesting dramatic device ..{and obviously a conversation ignitor } .. but.. I somehow just can't see this particular episode as a particularly driving and continuing theme forward into the season.

Yeah, that is true. Desmond would be fully aware of the hatch and what it was. If we are to assume that Desmond was experiencing precognition in the past, that means he knew all about the hatch when he was still with Pen. So none of that would have been a surprise at all. The woman even tells him hell do the race, wreck on the island and push the button.

And the previous episode of Desmond with Kelvin doesnt support that at all.

So yeah, thats a huge hole.

Just as a recap..and to see if I'm understanding anything that I'm reading in this thread.

So there seems to be 3 schools of thought here:

1. Time loop theory - which I understand, but am not completely on board with.

2. Des is in the present time on the island and this was just a flash back. He was remembering the past as it happened, dreaming if you will. The jewerly store owner was his conscience just reminding him of the events that did take place and that he cant change fate. When his life "flashed before his eyes" it kept flashing up through the present into the future which is how he new Claire was going to drown.

3. Remus Lupin's precognition theory. That Des can see the future.


Is this close to being right? I have a hard time believing #2 because if he was just remembering the past how did he change it? He told the Bartender to duck to keep him from being hit. This changes the course of history.

I don't believe multiple iterations of a time loop are necessary for this episode to make sense.

The lady from the shop told Desmond that she didn't save the guy in the red shoes because the next day he would have died in a car accident, and if she had saved him from the car accident then the day after that he would have died some other way (or something to that effect). Her point was that it was his time to die, and that he was going to die one way or another regardless of her attempts to save him.

The same thing happened with Charlie. Desmond saved him from the lightning, so a short while later he also had to save him from drowning. If the guy in the red shoes and Charlie are parallel characters, then according to what the lady said, soon Charlie will be in a deathly situation again because it is just his time to go. Desmond can interfere only so many times before fate finally wins. In the lady's example, there were no time loops, just fate eventually winning the battle, even if people get in the way.

That might explain to some degree why Charlie has the word F-A-T-E written on his fingers in the first season.

I suppose this might be a bit off topic, but whether Desmond is a time travller or psychic why does he feel so compelled to save Charlie? Why not Eko or Steve (or was it Scott) or Boone or Shannon or Ana or Libby or any of the other people who died on the island?

I don't know how this fits into the grand scheme of things, but maybe Des somehow caused Charlie's pending death and he keeps trying to save him because he feels guilty for this. Des knows he can't save Charlie forever, but he has been trying for some time. Perhaps, when Des told the bartender to duck and Des got hit, he changed the course of what was "supposed" to happen and it affected Charlie.

I agree with whomever said there will be a sacrifice for Charlie. I don't think the LOST creators would have Des tell us Charlie is going to die and then actually have him die. Too obvious! But maybe they think we'll think it's too obvious and then they'll actually kill off Charlie to surprise us. Ahhhhhhh!!!

I have a hard time believing #2 because if he was just remembering the past how did he change it? He told the Bartender to duck to keep him from being hit. This changes the course of history.


#2 still works, even with the bartender ducking, because #2 postulates that this is a dream flashback, not an actual retelling of the events that took place back in 1997 (or whenever it was).

I can dream about going to my high school prom with Brad Pitt, but it's not going to change the fact that my actual prom date was my lab partner Greg. In this case, my subconscious would be taking my actual memories and embellishing them, perhaps even using those embellishments to motivate and encourage me in future dating situations.

Dez needed a shot in the arm so that he can change his fate and end up winning the girl. His dreams were trying to provide that shot.

Of course, how (and if) it all relates to his apparent precog abilities, I have no idea.

Maybe Charlie doesn't remember meeting Des on the street because that past "reality" hasn't happened to Charlie yet.
more proof of time travel/loop : Desmond says (after waking up after the explosion) "just let me go back one more time" also explain how Des knew Jack on the steps ? "see you in another life, brother"

if he is in a loop

wouldnt it seem that the failsafe is the start over point then
if it is then wouldnt it be impossible for penny to find him cause it just starts over again

My 2 cents: The probability of the same individuals existing and acting/reacting exactly the same way throughout all of Desmond's "time loop" iterations is infinitesimally small. Therefore, if he is in a time loop, experiencing his life over and over how is it then possible that all of our losties are the same versions of themselves or exist at all in each of his subsequent iterations? Unless he does every single thing EXACTLY the same in subsequent iterations... our losties would be effected/changed much like changing Charlie's fate... which is the only visible change that we are aware of. Does that mean that Desmond has performed each iteration EXACTLY the same EXCEPT for saving Charlie? Not likely.

Ever have deja vu? The look on Desmond’s face when he was standing in the jungle with Locke, Sayid, Hurley, and Charlie was a look of "I know something is going down right now... what is it? What am I supposed to remember right now?" and then he finally grasps it... kind of like deja vu. Maybe his deja vu abilities have been enhanced by the hatch/Island/magnetic force, etc.

What gets me a little perplexed is his flashback. I have to say it seems that it may have occurred in his head... But then was he lying on the jungle floor that whole time? What about his clothes? IF it was a time loop or alternate universe did he jump to another parallel universe and then back to the current one? And if that's the case how could he predict things that occur in the current universe if they only happened a parallel universe because of some action he took to change the course of that alternate universe. How would it affect the current universe?

BINGO! the flashbacks and the episode make perfect sense withOUT having to assume a time loop, as long as we assume that desmond and the shopkeeper lady were both ALWAYS precognizant (i.e. the hatch implosion didn't make des psychic, he always was). des was foreseeing the events of the race, the island, etc., just as the ring lady was foreseeing des and penny, and the red shoe guy's death. humans have no reference point for seeing the future. we would interpret them as memories. that's why when des foresees the island, he mistakes it for having already been there. the whole "i've been here before" deja vu thing. the time loop is far too complicated the way it's being discussed here, what with trying to count iterations based on how many times des has saved charlie ("it has to be 2 iterations because charlie couldn't have drowned saving claire if he was already dead from the lightning strike"). the simpler explanation is that des just sees the future, as he always has, as he always will, even after he's altered it. occam's razor. the simplest solution is often the correct solution.

it also leaves alive the great theory that donovan-the-physicist will remember des' prediction about the island and the button, and he will tell penny once des disappears, thus leading to her search for him via the ice station.

it ALSO leaves alive the fantastic all-encompassing time-loop theory posited by cardielost in the spoiler section of this board.

--billy

I almost agree, but don't you think that when Desmond was hit by the cricket paddel he could have forgotten everything about his precognizant untill the explosion at the hatch. That would explain why he didn't realize any of it untill after the white light. He says in the episode that when he turnned the key he say his life flash before his eyes. He could have forgotten untill then. That would explain about him not trying to change things untill now. Also don't forget about the guy in Australia when talking about precogs. He got claire on that plane.

Part of me believes that this was just his mind (or the island) showing him what chioces he could have made in the past. Like stated several times here, if he's in a "Groundhog Day" loop, he would know a lot more details about what's happening, not only now but before failsafe. After all, he looked surprised when Charlie showed up with the expensive Scotch (wouln't he have already known that?)

But I find it hard to believe that the writers would have dedicated a whole ep to a "It's a Wonderful Life" type love-lost circumstance. I hate to admit it, but I may be leaning toward a time/space warp theory - that he was "knocked" back into the past and then "knocked" back to the present. I really don't think he's lived this but once. It gives me great tired-head thinking about it, though.

If he is in a time loop, the "start over point" would be beyond the failsafe key turning. It would be sometime in the future, which we havent seen. That is how he would know about Charlie. The failsafe key simply starts him over again, and then he gets to the point of being hit in the face with the oar, then continues on the island. Later, he'll hit the "Start over point" and his existence will loop back upon itself.

The failsafe key, in other words, isnt the start and end of the loop. It's in the middle and simply resets part of his existence to another time, but he then returns back to the island and saves charlie/charlie dies and then at some point in the future it loops again. We aren't being shown the end of the loop.

That's if you believe in the time loop.

as someone mentioned why not save eko

maybe he can only see the future about charlie

I think two things happened. First, the release of the EM energy somehow showed Desmond flashes of everything that happened in his life from birth to death, but in a random, confusing, and fragmentary manner. (Don't ask me how this is possible, but the island seems to know a lot of stuff and put it into people's heads.) Absorbing these flashes renders Desmond unconscious--and naked!--and while he is unconscious, signalled by the fall from the ladder, he dreams about or has the island send him a vision of his past refracted through the prism of what he knows about his future up to the turning of the failsafe key. At the point in the dream/vision where he resolves not to resign himself to fate but to try to change it, he is knocked unconscious again and wakes up this time not in a dream world but on the island where the implosion has thrown him.

But he retains all his memories from the flashes and so starts predicting the future on the island.

Cardie

It seems that Des started to remember "something" during this scene....Charlie was saying, "What do you mean, the island killed him?" I think this prompted a memory in Des and it was then that he remembered the drowning. Perhaps there were no memory "prompts" in regard to Eko's death.

http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=1250&pos=40

I think that his memories were just smokey scanning him. Good thing the time loop/hatch implsion didn't plunge him down a thousand foot waterfall like it did to Marsha, Will and Holly in Land of the Lost. :eek2:

Ha Ha

We've been discussing this Time Loop theory for a week or so in the Spoiler section and all credit has to go to Cardielost for comming up with it :biggrin:
Oh and wasn't the original working title for Lost - The Circle :biggrin:

A-ha! I was wondering how everyone was able to jump into the time loop discussion so quickly, it really felt like everyone had already thought about it for a while. It makes you spoiler people seem like you have precognitive abilities :D And hmmm it does give a new meaning to 'the circle'

I'm also leaning more towards the idea that Des's FB was influenced by the island and/or smokey, like it was a vision or dream. and that the jewllery woman was a manifestation of smoky. It just fits and and makes a lot of sense with the show so far. This time loop idea is trippy, but I'm not sure where it will take the show.

Yes you are making sense - I think it comes down to the need of the many outnumber the needs of the few - we don't know anything about the man in the red shoes but what could his death has achieved, maybe it stopped him killing someone in an RTA, maybe two people meet at his funeral who work together to conquer global warming, oh the posibilities are endless. However what Desmond is doing is somehow preventing the destruction of the species not just an individual. It is Desmonds 'destiny' just as it was for red shoes to die


This is reasonable, but if Desmond's fate is to save the world, why does this woman need to interfere and talk to him , why didn't she just leave him be knowing no matter what happens, he will eventually end up on the island, just like no matter what she does, the red shoes guy will die.


I can't recall from the episode, but is there any way that they just didn't make 2 copies of the photo when they orignally took the pictures?

In the actual scene the photographer seems to only give on copy of the photo to Des.

I suppose this might be a bit off topic, but whether Desmond is a time travller or psychic why does he feel so compelled to save Charlie? Why not Eko or Steve (or was it Scott) or Boone or Shannon or Ana or Libby or any of the other people who died on the island?


Yes I would love an explanation why Des didn't know about Eko.

Wait, was the original working title really The Circle? I've never heard of that.

But if the end of the iteration is when Des turns the failsafe, then the iteration starts over with him lying in red paint... then he has broke out of the first iteration.

But the thing is, he's still "remembering" things that haven't happened yet (lighting bolts), so maybe there's a loop within a loop and he's currently in the second loop.

I dunno, it's all so abstract my brain hurts :)


My brain does not hurt, rather it is fascinated by this apparent looping.:kiss:

Apologies for massive multiquoting. Have to catch up.
The idea is that the "flashbacks" in th show were actually "real time". All the island information during the episode are precognitions being had by Desmond when he was still dating Penny.
Maybe this would have been too much of a giveaway, but if it is true that London was real time and the island was a premonition, then shouldn't the "woosh" sound indicating a switch from real to past/future be in a different place? I'll have to rewatch the episode to be sure, but I don't think it was altered.

Also, in the second season finale, when we see Desmond's flashbacks, how come he doesn't seem to have any flashes, not even one, then? ... When he crashes on the Island, he didn't seem to remember Kelvin at all, even though we saw some flashes of Kelvin's head bleeding in this week's ep. Wouldn't he have told Kelvin anything?
If we are buying into the time loop, this may have to do with the iteration question. Could we have changed iterations (sier's idea of the mini loop within a bigger loop) when the failsafe key was turned? Could Desmond have more information then he had during the days we saw in season 2?

3) If Des is in a warp, he would remember somthing as significant as his hatch being opened by Locke and Jack ... He would know that they are friends or at least not going to harm him, why did he shoot at Jack?

4) Des would have known that when Locke and others began to push the button that he was going to return to the island, why would he take the boat and try and escape?
Could these types of things also be explained by a relooping of the miniloop? (Cue brain explosion)

A-ha! I was wondering how everyone was able to jump into the time loop discussion so quickly, it really felt like everyone had already thought about it for a while. It makes you spoiler people seem like you have precognitive abilities :D
Spoilers make you smarter. ;)

This is reasonable, but if Desmond's fate is to save the world, why does this woman need to interfere and talk to him , why didn't she just leave him be knowing no matter what happens, he will eventually end up on the island, just like no matter what she does, the red shoes guy will die.
I think it is NOT Desmond's fate to save the world necessarily, and the woman was lying. She knows Desmond has the choice not to do it, so she was trying to ensure she would do what was best for her.

Yes I would love an explanation why Des didn't know about Eko.
He did see it. But he didn't change it, because he hadn't yet decided he could change fate and prevent someone's death. (oh, no, or was this after the lightening?) Well, whatever the explanation, we know he saw where Eko was to be buried, because he was surprised that Locke was doing it in the wrong place.

I find holes in each theory, so now I'm at a total loss.

If it is a time loop, and we don't know yet what the "end" of Desmond's loop is, I'm guessing it is however the series ends. Maybe it's Penny finding the island. Or another plane crashing (with the Losties having become the Others or a part of the Others). Something like that. When that happens, the island starts its new loop, and then we smash back to each of the Losties as they were at the beginning of the loop in montage format?

Something to think about it.

This episode seems to fit with a scene that was deleted from the first season. There was a preview of the episode the week before between Sayid and Danielle where Danielle said that she and her crew were studying "time". When the actual episode ran, that scene never appeared. Perhaps in an alternate time line, Danielle is tied in with a time loop.

Can you explain to me how the time loop was confirmed?

It wasn't... in no way, shape or form. But, it's beginning to look like time travel is involved and no matter what manner of travel it is, "we knew it was a time loop!!" will be exclaimed at the end.

Well, in all fairness, I said "I think" it was confirmed. But it's only if we choose to believe Desmond's flashbacks were accurate.


What happened to Des had Nothing to do with the "time loop" theory.

First... Desmond is not in a loop. His "loop" occurred when the Hatch exploded. Whatever he experienced then is over now, it ended when he got hit on the head by the cricket bat.

Secondly... it was his own personal bit of time travel. it started and ended with him getting hit on the head, so no one else looped... just him. That doesn't even Resemble the "time loop theory" that the entire island is on one loop.

I find holes in each theory, so now I'm at a total loss.

If it is a time loop, and we don't know yet what the "end" of Desmond's loop is, I'm guessing it is however the series ends.

The end of Desmond's "loop" was when he got hit by the bat and came back to the scene of the explosion. What he experienced had a definitive beginning and ending... it just had consequences (he still gets flashes).

Everytime you change one thing in the loop it ripples out.
Penny: Don't you dare re-write history.

It wasn't... in no way, shape or form. But, it's beginning to look like time travel is involved and no matter what manner of travel it is, "we knew it was a time loop!!" will be exclaimed at the end.

What happened to Des had Nothing to do with the "time loop" theory.

First... Desmond is not in a loop. His "loop" occurred when the Hatch exploded. Whatever he experienced then is over now, it ended when he got hit on the head by the cricket bat.

Secondly... it was his own personal bit of time travel. it started and ended with him getting hit on the head, so no one else looped... just him. That doesn't even Resemble the "time loop theory" that the entire island is on one loop.

The end of Desmond's "loop" was when he got hit by the bat and came back to the scene of the explosion. What he experienced had a definitive beginning and ending... it just had consequences (he still gets flashes).
I'm not sure how you can be so definitive, when clearly dozens and dozens of people disagree with you - plus you haven't really explained your reasoning. You're just stating it as if your theory is fact. Plus, by saying that there is no loop but that Desmond is in a loop as pretty confusing.

So, you're going to have to give us more! I'm taking everything into my personal consideration, but statements of fact without explanation aren't going to be given much weight. :cool:

I'm not sure how you can be so definitive, when clearly dozens and dozens of people disagree with you - plus you haven't really explained your reasoning. You're just stating it as if your theory is fact. Plus, by saying that there is no loop but that Desmond is in a loop as pretty confusing.

So, you're going to have to give us more! I'm taking everything into my personal consideration, but statements of fact without explanation aren't going to be given much weight. :cool:

Wait... are you saying that Desmond's "loop" starting when the hatch exploded and ending when he woke up back on the island is a "theory" of mine?

Wait... are you saying that Desmond's "loop" starting when the hatch exploded and ending when he woke up back on the island is a "theory" of mine?

No, she just wants proof to the definitive nature of your statements. If it's so cut and dry, where is the proof?

Furthermore, if we are to say his visions are just flashbacks, memories, or inside his head, how the heck can he predict the future? It still doesnt answer how he knows Charlie is in danger (and that aspect has actually been proven with the lightning strike).

The time loop is really the only explanation for it other than "he can see the future".

Thanks sier, that's exactly what I meant! :smile:
This isn't an obvious one. I'm sure it was written to be deliberately confusing, leading to a myriad of possible answers. So, we're going to have to weigh evidence.

It might've been obvious to everyone else, but did you notice the various items littered about in the jungle after the explosion that Desmond saw? One was the exercise bike, and it had a warped/bent/broken wheel well surrounding the tire (which appeared to be ok)

Then there was the broken dartboard - this was kind also noteworthy to me since the metal ring surrounding the dart boart was knocked off and now lay off center on the dart board which gave the image of 2 separate circles.

Lastly, there was an image of the circular Dharma logo on the wall/door that laid in the grass...

This kind of gives some additional credibility to the time loop/time passing differently theories. I say this because with those images of "broken circles" scattered about, I think that perhaps the loop has now been broken because of the destruction of the hatch....thoughts everyone?

No, she just wants proof to the definitive nature of your statements. If it's so cut and dry, where is the proof?


Why would I need to "prove" it unless it was just a "theory" of mine?

Furthermore, if we are to say his visions are just flashbacks, memories, or inside his head...

I never said that it was.

It still doesnt answer how he knows Charlie is in danger (and that aspect has actually been proven with the lightning strike).


Desmond answered that. He explained it all to Charlie at the end. I'd quote him if I were at home, but he told Charlie that the explosion caused him to go backwards in time, then he came back and woke up on the island (that would be the end of the "loop") but he also explains that he still gets flashes of the future sometimes.

He Doesn't say that he's in a continuous "loop", that he keeps waking up at different points in his life or anything to that effect. He says he Had a backwards flash, and that it ended, but that he still gets occasional flashes of the future.

What Desmond described sounds Nothing like a coninuous time loop... he speaks of that in the past tense, and uses it to answer Charlie's Direct question about what happened to him after he turned the key.

I think all these theories are very interesting, but many of them seem far too complex for the show. Obviously Lost has a deep plot line, but it is a TV show. Some of the more fundamental components of the show, such as this potential time loop, can't be so complex that they need pages of explanation. Casual viewrs, and even viewers who like the show but don't read every forum board searching for answers might become alienated by too much complexity. The producers would not want to overwhelm viewers too much. Any idea that takes too much explanation seems to be an unlikely solution to me.

As a die hard fan though, I love the complexity of it all but I'm afraid from a TV producer standpoint some of these theories are unrealistic.

Just because Desmond thinks of it a certain way, phrases his experience a certain way, doesn't mean it's not a loop. It could just mean he doesn't understand what he's experiencing.
If one were to be caught in a time loop, do you think one would really completely grasp that it was actually happening and possible? :confused:

I'm having a loop of a time with all this :undecide: Besides knowing that I really have to watch this episode again after reading lots of very interesting theories - for the moment, I think I have a (temporary) idea of what I might think - at least what I thought initially after watching the ep.

Elements of Desmond's time
1. Pre-Island (up to him sailing and finally ending up on the island) (No evidence of seeing the future) (Past)
2. In the Hatch. (no evidence of seeing the future) (Present)
3. Locke, etc descend into the hatch and meet Des (no evidence of seeing the future)(Present)
4. Des goes on Out of hatch experience (we know he drank a lot, not much else) (Present)
5. Return to hatch/island. (Present)
6. The turning of the fail safe key. (turning point)
7. Naked Des who now apparently can see that Charlie is in danger (though we didn't know this at first) (Present/future) OR Past/present mixed
8. Back to pre-island (in flashbacks) where he has flashforwards in his flashbacks. (Past/future) or Past/Present/future
9. On island with ability that carries over from his flashbacks with flashforwards allowing him to know what will happen to Charlie. This is the present with flashforwards. (Present/future)

I'm not sure I can even explain it at this point - but several things others have posted kind of fit into my line of thinking. I thought that the during the flashbacks, he was mixing the present - which appeared to be his having flashforwards... for example - the microwave buzzer sounding like the countdown clock -- he was having a flashback of the microwave and incorporated the present sound of what the clock sounded like, and during the flashback was aware that this sound was not the right sound for that time and in his mind that was him back in the past (not recognizing it was a flashback and believing he was in the past)....
I'm never going to be able to explain this... :biggrin:

The way i saw it, it was all in his head. That still doesn't explain how he can see into the future. But I'm pretty positive he never really went back in time, it was just like one of those dreams where you actually have control of the things you do in the dream, if you know what i mean. But still, this time thing is VERY interesting, and it just might be Dharma & Associates controlling it.

Just because Desmond thinks of it a certain way, phrases his experience a certain way, doesn't mean it's not a loop. It could just mean he doesn't understand what he's experiencing.
If one were to be caught in a time loop, do you think one would really completely grasp that it was actually happening and possible? :confused:

Maybe, maybe not... I'm just pointing out that according to what the characters have actually stated, there's no continuous loop. Is it possible that Desmond is wrong? Sure, but according to what's actually aired now not only doesn't it line up with the "time loop" theory, but as I was saying, it actually contradicts it.

Further proof of no loop is in the episode itself... if there's a time loop and Desmond remembers Charlie being electrocuted, then Stops the electrocution... the loop ends. At that point it breaks off, and he can't "remember" what happens next because That Moment never happened in his "loop" so everything after that point is new.

But then, somehow later he "remembers" Charlie drowning... how could Charlie drown if he was already electrocuted? None of the "loop theory" lines up to what's actually happening. Meanwhile, Desmond says that he has "flashes" of the future. That still makes sense. If he changes the future, then he gets a different flash. I think that it's as simple as that.

After last week's episode, much discussion centered around whether or not the Losties are looping through time, and what turning the key had to do with it.

Tonight, I think we got a huge confirmation that this has happened, as least once. Desmond has clearly been through it all before.

One question I have now is - how many times has this happend before? Are we on iteration number 2?

And will Charlie survive the iteration?

This has not happened before.

Desmond supposedly saved Charlie's life from the lightning - now if he saw Charlie die from the lightning and saved him, everything from that moment on is changed...and yet still he saw Charlie try and save Claire, something which would not have happened had Charlie died earlier and therefore something he could not have remembered.

Either the concept of time travel is being handled poorly by TPTB or it's the island - but will it ever be explained ?

This has not happened before.

Desmond supposedly saved Charlie's life from the lightning - now if he saw Charlie die from the lightning and saved him, everything from that moment on is changed...

Exactly!

Each time he saves Charlie's life, it's like he creates a new timeline... but, if TPTB are just saying that every time he creates a new one he still gets "flashes" from further down the new time lines he creates, I can buy that. If they're saying the island is in a giant "time loop" then it makes no sense.

Exactly!

Each time he saves Charlie's life, it's like he creates a new timeline... but, if TPTB are just saying that every time he creates a new one he still gets "flashes" from further down the new time lines he creates, I can buy that. If they're saying the island is in a giant "time loop" then it makes no sense.

nah, it makes perfect sense, just think Groundhog Day except your whole life is repeated and not just one day and you don't really remember it except for flashes . So in one loop charlie dies in the crash, loop2 that's avoided but Ethan kills Charlie, Loop3 the Heroin gets him, loop 4 the lightning. Remember in Ground Hog day how Bill Murray saves the old man but then he dies of the cold anyway so then he has to do more.

I think with Desmond he was blown out of the loop backwards into an earlier part of his life but it was only transitory and the universe soon restored him back to the correct time on the Island.

Why would I need to "prove" it unless it was just a "theory" of mine?



I never said that it was.



Desmond answered that. He explained it all to Charlie at the end. I'd quote him if I were at home, but he told Charlie that the e