What do you think? The old lady was kind of fatalistic. She believed that you can't change your fate. If that's true it's not a very encouraging message for any of us. If we can make choices that changes our fate, there's hope for us all. I'd like to think the lady was wrong and that fate can be altered. So does this mean Charlie will definitely die one way or another, or can someone do something about it?

Charlie's death being "fate" and Desmond's perception of fate ties in nicely with the idea of the Valenzeti Equation. Can it change?
Either he will be another victim or we will be shown that free choice can change things. Or, someone will die in his place. Perhaps Desmond was able to take the hit from the bartender and saved the bartender from his fate? Or perhaps the blow was altered? Not as much force? Am I reaching?

I'm wondering now if Charlie was supposed to die after Ethan hung him... and the universe has been course correcting since then trying to off him. I'd have to review the entire series, but I'm pretty sure now we'd be able to spot moment when Charlie may have been saved from certain death.

How many times has Charlie almost died/supposed to have died? Being hung from the tree in season 1, saving Claire, etc... There are quite a few. It definitely seems like SOMETHING is out to get him, whether it's fate or the island or whatever.

Well, I'm not sure the lady (listed as Ms. HAWKING in press releases) was being entirely truthful. After all, she worked pretty hard to convince Desmond. I'm thinking she knew it could go either way, and she wanted to ensure the best future that she could see.

So, that all being said, I do think Charlie can be saved. The question is, can they find the right way out of the loop? There may only be certain opportunities to choose a path that creates an alternative future.

I still believe fate can be changed. If fate is a big theme of the series, and the show plays out that fate cannot be changed, I'd start to wonder if they are sending the right message. Not to mention it would make it less interesting. I'd love to see fate being able to change once the characters truely believe in themselves.

Either way, I'd hate to see Charlie meet his maker. I still have faith that Charlie will live, PJ! :biggrin:

well, according to her, he is dead, but can you break the loop, we will find out.

Final Destination all over again.

True about the hanging. Jack saves him, but you would think if he was supposed to die he would have. This confuses me. Plus it is encouraging that Desmond was able to change the bartender getting hit, but we don't know if something else would have gotten the bartender the next day. Small things can be changed (like the lightning rod) but they come around the same way in the end. So is Charlie doomed?

The whole idea of the Valenzetti equation is to change the numbers and alter the future. If that's hopeless, what are the implications?

'Make your own kind of music'

You decide your own destiny. Charlie is far from dead... if the writers stay true to their message - then maybe Charlie's the safest person on this island.

I do think they will find a way to break the loop, probably in the very end and it will lead to them all being saved. Charlie has survived a lot already. People have always been there to help him, and I think that will continue until they do something to "go back and make it right" as Desmond said.

Good point about the hanging. Also nearly being crushed by the food cart on the plane and the washer/dryer in the hatch.

A Certain "LOST" moment makes me think differently...

What if Claire is in danger again and Charlie is the only one who can save her. Will he be reluctant now believing he will die if he takes any risks?

Seems to me if they are trapped in this one fate that by saving Charlie they could break out of it. Maybe they'll make an island project out of protecting him to alter everyone's futures. What if Desmond knows the future is bleak, but if Charlie lives, they can all be saved?

Save the junkie, save the world!

'Make your own kind of music'
Ah, such a great point! :smile:

BTW, I hope spoiler fanatics will remember me "calling" it that Desmond is actually saving Charlie's life because he would have drowned trying to rescue Claire. I am SO going to have to dig up that post!!!!

Does anyone else find it strange that Desmond interacted with Charlie in his 'flashback'? And now he's got visions of Charlie's 'future'?

The old lady was pretty ominous. Makes you really think about how many times Charlie has been saved. So Claire drowning.....was that in someone's head? My head is still spinning

'Make your own kind of music'

You decide your own destiny. Charlie is far from dead... if the writers stay true to their message - then maybe Charlie's the safest person on this island.

You're an inspiration lune!

OMG! See? This is why I jump on the Lage after an episode. You all have such amazing ideas! the Valenzetti Equation, Make Your Own Kind of Music, Charlie in his flashback. Wow, there is so much to think about!

Pace, that is the idea of the Equation. So, my thought is that Charlie's death is tied into the whole idea of fate and the Equation. Will he be another victim or can they find a way to change fate via free will aka making your own music.
It depends on how long they want to draw it out.
I think eventually free will prevails. ;)

BTW, I hope spoiler fanatics will remember me "calling" it that Desmond is actually saving Charlie's life because he would have drowned trying to rescue Claire. I am SO going to have to dig up that post!!!!
Great call!! :biggrin: And if I may - I did call that Desmond didn't see Claire getting electrocuted, he saw Charlie (in the EMFH board). I'm so digging that post when the search function is back on. :cool:

If anything, I think this episode illustrated that we can change our fate... Our free will ultimately creates who we are, what we do.. It seems he may have altered something on this trip back -I think that's why he didn't remember the night correctly in the tavern. So I'm hoping that although the universe keeps course-correcting itself, that Desmond did something to correct Charlie's course and let him live..

I still don't think they'll kill him off after making it so obvious. I think the "No matter what I do, you're gonna die" line is a set up for upcoming episodes to show that you can escape death's course.

Save the junkie, save the world!

:D

Wonder what "This is our destiny' and "We were all brought here for a purpose' Locke would think of this?

It has long been a theory of mine that Charlie was never supposed to have survived the crash..and something has been out to get him ever since.

Kudos to those out there who theorized that Desmond was actually trying to save Charlie instead of Claire.

As to whether he will die...I have no idea.

I still don't think they'll kill him off after making it so obvious. I think the "No matter what I do, you're gonna die" line is a set up for upcoming episodes to show that you can escape death's course.

Agreed!

It sure would be interesting if it WAS Claire who turned out to die. Talk about irony.

In addition to 'Make your own kind of Music', don't forget all the choices theme in The Moth - said by the priest (Choice is what makes you what you are) and Locke with his speech about choosing - it's the difference between us and animals.

The big question to me is who that woman is. She seemed like she existed outside Desmond's real past, and I wondered if she was an hallucination or was indeed just his subconscious interpreting events. Indeed the "do-over" flashback seems actually to be one of the flashes, not an actual return of Desmond to the London of five or ten years ago. So I'm not sure what Desmond's taking the blow for the bartender is supposed to tell us.

I do think the ring is bound to show up again in some surprising and impossible place.

Also, wasn't the photographer the same guy that delivered to 815? What do his repeated appearances mean?

Cardie

I think Charlie will die at some point, but it will be his own choice (some heroic self-sacrifice to save others, perhaps Claire and/or Aaron) ... this will leave the question open as to whether he was fated to die, or merely chose to.

It is also possible that there will be a twist where Charlie will appear to be dead (as far as Desmond can tell), but turns out not to be... maybe he escapes the island instead, leaving the possibility of a return later...

OK, they aren't going to make it sooo obvious who is dying next, or at all. I can't see them making this big of a deal about it so far in advance, just to have him actually die.

Great call!! :biggrin: And if I may - I did call that Desmond didn't see Claire getting electrocuted, he saw Charlie (in the EMFH board). I'm so digging that post when the search function is back on. :cool:
Yeah! Good job!

And I heartily agree with those who say Charlie CAN'T die now, because it would make less sense dramatically. Don't our heroes have to triumph over the ultimate foe - FATE?

Oh no. :eek2: I just wrote FATE. And I then I thought of Charlie's FATE finger taping.

And then I thought - Charlie DOES know, on some level, that fate is working against him.

I still don't think they'll kill him off after making it so obvious. I think the "No matter what I do, you're gonna die" line is a set up for upcoming episodes to show that you can escape death's course.
I agree Diesel... I think the whole redemption theme that TPTB have been talking about for so long just doesn't fit with the notion that we can't change our fates.

It has long been a theory of mine that Charlie was never supposed to have survived the crash..
elf, I've often thought that too. Charlie's a survivor; I don't see him bending to fate (well he may go through a depressive period, but I think Hurley will snap him out of that and then he'll fight back.) I just don't see this playing out as anything other than death hype that turns into "cheating death."

Save the junkie, save the world!

:rotflmao2: Can I quote you in my signature line?

Great call!! :biggrin: And if I may - I did call that Desmond didn't see Claire getting electrocuted, he saw Charlie (in the EMFH board). I'm so digging that post when the search function is back on. :cool:


I was thinking that tonight - "why does Charlie think he can do anything - he can't swim!"

I think they will find the answer to the "Time Loop" and Charlie will be saved.

Maybe the island is one place where the rules are different -- you do have free will and the power to intervene.

Pace, that is the idea of the Equation. So, my thought is that Charlie's death is tied into the whole idea of fate and the Equation. Will he be another victim or can they find a way to change fate via free will aka making your own music.
It depends on how long they want to draw it out.
I think eventually free will prevails. ;)

I can deal with them drawing it out a loooooooong time. ;)

Wonder what "This is our destiny' and "We were all brought here for a purpose' Locke would think of this?

What I think is interesting is Locke is a big believer in fate, destiny and what's supposed to happen. Sawyer said "a tiger don't change his stripes", we've seen characters make the same mistakes on the island over and over in the same fashion as what's being shown here. Yet, the Others are all about choice and free will. We certainly want to believe that everyone on the island has the power to make changes in their lives.

The big question to me is who that woman is. She seemed like she existed outside Desmond's real past, and I wondered if she was an hallucination or was indeed just his subconscious interpreting events. Indeed the "do-over" flashback seems actually to be one of the flashes, not an actual return of Desmond to the London of five or ten years ago. So I'm not sure what Desmond's taking the blow for the bartender is supposed to tell us.

I do think the ring is bound to show up again in some surprising and impossible place.

Also, wasn't the photographer the same guy that delivered to 815? What do his repeated appearances mean?

Cardie

All good questions Cardie, and I'd try to answer them but I'm busy cleaning up all the gray matter from the walls and floor. :)
100%
:rotflmao2: Can I quote you in my signature line?

You can, but I already claimed it. ;)

Indeed the "do-over" flashback seems actually to be one of the flashes, not an actual return of Desmond to the London of five or ten years ago. ....

Also, wasn't the photographer the same guy that delivered to 815? What do his repeated appearances mean?

Cardie
Totally didn't notice the repeat appearance of that guy! Does make you think Desmond's memory is a bit fishy.

I do think the "do over" flashback was a memory Desmond had on the island. He wasn't actually reliving the experience in London as we were watching it. He was remembering it, just as the other characters remember it in all the other episodes. The confusing thing is that we were watching him remember the future.

But Cardie, you are the master of understanding this! I should be wary of explaining my thoughts to someone who gets it better than me.


I think Charlie will die at some point, but it will be his own choice (some heroic self-sacrifice to save others, perhaps Claire and/or Aaron) ... this will leave the question open as to whether he was fated to die, or merely chose to.
Yes, well that certainly leaves the option of Charlie dying on the table, which still surrounding it in dramatic ambiguity!

What do you think? The old lady was kind of fatalistic. She believed that you can't change your fate. If that's true it's not a very encouraging message for any of us. If we can make choices that changes our fate, there's hope for us all. I'd like to think the lady was wrong and that fate can be altered. So does this mean Charlie will definitely die one way or another, or can someone do something about it?


I agree w/ you to some extent. But it all depends upon which aspect or which theory you agree with. Some ssay that you can't change the future in anyway, much as that lady did. (And she is soo familiar, just can't remember where I've seen her before.) Some say, like you, that we can make other choices. I love that they set us up to think it was Claire when all along it was Charlie...espc. considering that Charlie hasn't always been so good to Des.

But what I liked most about this ep was the idea that Des was really trying to change! But I say to the Charlie fans, don't lose hope!
Perhaps the Island will save Charlie!

OK, they aren't going to make it sooo obvious who is dying next, or at all. I can't see them making this big of a deal about it so far in advance, just to have him actually die.

Agreed. It just doesn't fit with how TPTB do things on this show. Have they ever tipped their hand like this before? I'm just not believing the obvious.

Yet, the Others are all about choice and free will. We certainly want to believe that everyone on the island has the power to make changes in their lives.
The Others probably deserve their own thread in relation to this, but I wanted to say: could their emphasis on free will, combined with their own pattern of violence, be somehow related to an awareness of the time loop situation? Was Ethan so blase about hanging Charlie and killing Sceve, because he knew their deaths were unavoidable? Could Ben want Jack to choose, because active choosing is the only way out?

Could my brain be exploding right now?

Anybody think that Charlie's fate may end up being dependent upon Paulo and Nikki's?

Maybe the island is one place where the rules are different -- you do have free will and the power to intervene.

That's what I thought, too. This island isn't subject to the same laws (of physics, etc) as the rest of the world.

The Others probably deserve their own thread in relation to this, but I wanted to say: could their emphasis on free will, combined with their own pattern of violence, be somehow related to an awareness of the time loop situation? Was Ethan so blase about hanging Charlie and killing Sceve, because he knew their deaths were unavoidable? Could Ben want Jack to choose, because active choosing is the only way out?

Could my brain be exploding right now?

I'm so confused......

Perhaps Locke was correct when he said you have to give something back. Maybe if we give enough back, we can alter our destiny?

I don't think he's DEFINITELY going to die. They could be making us believe he's going to die but then someone else does instead. Then again, since they were trying to hammer home the "Final Destination" idea that you can't change fate, they might just do it.

They might have him die and then come back to life. Who knows.

I don't think this means that Charlie has to die; I personally think that predestination is a pretty miserable concept. Why are we even walking this Earth if nothing we do makes a difference or our choices have already been made for us? I can't imagine that TPTB have created this show just to tell us that nothing we do makes any difference, that our fates are already written in the stars.

I do think the old woman was wrong. First, if she was his subconscious, of course she's going to say that the man in the red sneaks was basically a dead man walking. She's rationalizing her choice NOT to try and save a fellow human being - that is, why should she put herself at risk for someone she doesn't know? In essence, she is speaking for every human being's subconcious. Fortunately, people also have the ability to be compassionate and it's that part of us that does run into burning buildings to save strangers, etc... Desmond, on the island, rejected this notion by trying again and again to save Charlie. I think that if he keeps trying, eventually the future is going to change and Charlie will not die. It's all about the human spirit not giving up - the future is not written, we can change it. Desmond's humanity DOES have an effect- we are not at the mercy of a cold cosmic fate as long as there is love and compassion in the world.I think this is the central message. I think Charlie will be fine.

Forgive me if this is in any way incoherant; my brain is now officially mush.

As someone up thread said- what if Charlie wasn't supposed to survive the crash and wasn't supposed to be on the island at all. Maybe we should all take a look at what has happened since day one and see how events would have played out if Charlie hadn't been there. For example, would someone else have shot what's his name?

And here's another thought- Hurley may believe the plane crash happened because he was on the plane. Maybe the crash happened because Charlie was on the plane.

Did I mention my brain is mush?

Charlie's a survivor; (he may go through a depressive period, but I think Hurley will snap him out of that and then he'll fight back.)

Good call. I think you're right. (Well, it seems like that's what should happen, so maybe it won't. lol)

Okay, the one thing that's bothering me about all this is the fact that it's been mentioned (even by TPTB) that there is a reason all these people were on that plane together, why Desmond didn't push the button and brought the plane down, etc. That they're connected. That FATE stepped in to make the events of the crash, etc., happen.

if that's the case, and we're to believe that Charlie can cheat death, change his fate -- doesn't that contradict somehow??

Agreeing about brains being mush BTW.

annie, my thoughts are that the fatalism applies to everyone. Not only has the theme crept up in every character's story but even the flashes Des had have applied to everyone including getting him onto the island to turn the key.

Forgive me if this is in any way incoherant; my brain is now officially mush.

As someone up thread said- what if Charlie wasn't supposed to survive the crash and wasn't supposed to be on the island at all. Maybe we should all take a look at what has happened since day one and see how events would have played out if Charlie hadn't been there. For example, would someone else have shot what's his name?

And here's another thought- Hurley may believe the plane crash happened because he was on the plane. Maybe the crash happened because Charlie was on the plane.

Did I mention my brain is mush?

That was me and while I don't know if Charlie 'crashed' the plane I have always suspected that something was out to get him. I thought perhaps 'something' didn't want him around protecting Claire perhaps....but the idea that he is an albatross of sorts is interesting.

Guh. I really want to know how far back this plot goes, or how long TPTB have been planning it. It makes me think that it isn't a coincednce that Charlie has had the most near death experinces on the island. Right from the start with the fuselage nearly crashing on him in the pilot Charlie continually has these crazy near death moments.

I also wonder how they're going to have Charlie react to all of this, I'm guessing angry, defensive, moody and bitchy are likely .. but I dunno, he might also get quiet and sulky like post all the best cowboys , he can be such a wild card when it comes to things like this.

Another thing is .. how will this plot line tie in with his flashback (which he will hopefully get at some point soonish.. because come on.. it's been eternity sence the last Charlie FB) .. how does defying fate, or imminent death tie into Charlie's back story (I just can't belive they'd give Charlie this kind of HUGE dose of meaningful story line and not tie it into his past.)

This could wind up as a great story for Charlie I think. Charlie has always let himself be controled and abused by people, and just sort of stood by and taken it, he's always just kind of let him self get dragged along by life, and I love the idea of him finally standing up and asserting himself. Demanding control of his own fate.

I don't think this means that Charlie has to die; I personally think that predestination is a pretty miserable concept. Why are we even walking this Earth if nothing we do makes a difference or our choices have already been made for us? I can't imagine that TPTB have created this show just to tell us that nothing we do makes any difference, that our fates are already written in the stars.

I do think the old woman was wrong. First, if she was his subconscious, of course she's going to say that the man in the red sneaks was basically a dead man walking. She's rationalizing her choice NOT to try and save a fellow human being - that is, why should she put herself at risk for someone she doesn't know? In essence, she is speaking for every human being's subconcious. Fortunately, people also have the ability to be compassionate and it's that part of us that does run into burning buildings to save strangers, etc... Desmond, on the island, rejected this notion by trying again and again to save Charlie. I think that if he keeps trying, eventually the future is going to change and Charlie will not die. It's all about the human spirit not giving up - the future is not written, we can change it. Desmond's humanity DOES have an effect- we are not at the mercy of a cold cosmic fate as long as there is love and compassion in the world.I think this is the central message. I think Charlie will be fine.


:hug: Oh. Wow. How much do I love this post? *hugs post* You're the greatest. What an amazing message. I hope Desmond doesn't stop trying then. He could really end up being the ultimate hero with his compassion, and finally learn what is good about him.

Great insight. :)

I think that eventually (finale maybe?) Charlie will end up a victim of Fate & it will be quite dramatic. I also think if TPTB are able to end the series as they wish at the end the Valenzetti Equation will have changed and the world will be a better place.Also, wasn't the photographer the same guy that delivered to 815? What do his repeated appearances mean?

CardieGood catch! :thumbsup:

This could wind up as a great story for Charlie I think. Charlie has always let himself be controled and abused by people, and just sort of stood by and taken it, he's always just kind of let him self get dragged along by life, and I love the idea of him finally standing up and asserting himself. Demanding control of his own fate.

I agree with you. Charlie has been very passive his whole life. This could finally be a chance for him to step up and take control of his own destiny. It's an amazing storyline and perfectly suits his character. I think his flashback will deal with this in some way. I still suspect his father was abusive and maybe Charlie took it all his life and did nothing.

The Others probably deserve their own thread in relation to this, but I wanted to say: could their emphasis on free will, combined with their own pattern of violence, be somehow related to an awareness of the time loop situation? Was Ethan so blase about hanging Charlie and killing Sceve, because he knew their deaths were unavoidable? Could Ben want Jack to choose, because active choosing is the only way out?


Excellent observation, jennylee.

I can see the idea that Charlie wasn't supposed to survive the crash--he was not in his assigned seat, after all. hmmm, another possibility to think on!

Desmond, for the moment, has surrendered to the fatalism POV. Charlie, I suspect, will be doing the same when we next see him. But Locke surrendered to it in LTDA and apparently snapped out of it (ironically, due in part to DESMOND'S urging him to find his faith again!). . .so there's hope these two can come back around, too.

Guh. I really want to know how far back this plot goes, or how long TPTB have been planning it. It makes me think that it isn't a coincednce that Charlie has had the most near death experinces on the island. Right from the start with the fuselage nearly crashing on him in the pilot Charlie continually has these crazy near death moments.

I also wonder how they're going to have Charlie react to all of this, I'm guessing angry, defensive, moody and vincenty are likely .. but I dunno, he might also get quiet and sulky like post all the best cowboys , he can be such a wild card when it comes to things like this.

Another thing is .. how will this plot line tie in with his flashback (which he will hopefully get at some point soonish.. because come on.. it's been eternity sence the last Charlie FB) .. how does defying fate, or imminent death tie into Charlie's back story (I just can't belive they'd give Charlie this kind of HUGE dose of meaningful story line and not tie it into his past.)

This could wind up as a great story for Charlie I think. Charlie has always let himself be controled and abused by people, and just sort of stood by and taken it, he's always just kind of let him self get dragged along by life, and I love the idea of him finally standing up and asserting himself. Demanding control of his own fate.

Sorry if this has been noted, but isn't it interesting that in both of the circumstances that Charlie was almost killed he was protecting Claire? First, he went into the tent during the thunderstorm to help protect her and Aaron, then he would have died saving Claire from drowning?

When he's trying to be the stand up guy he was in the past he nearly gets killed! Is he destined not to be that stand up guy? Does fate just really want him to stay away from Claire?

I really hope Charlie doesn't die. I think that would kill the morale of the remaining characters far more, even, than did the deaths of Boone and Shannon. Hell, it'd kill OUR morale!

I'm a fan of the theory that says if the writers broadcast an impending death, it won't happen. That would be soooooo un-Lost.

On the other hand, is it possible that all the 815's will die? Were they all supposed to die in the crash? Or were they all supposed to arrive at some destination other than the island? Too many things to consider after tonight's episode.

this is such a great post - it makes my head hurt in a good way!

sorry if this seems like a stupid question, but is the point that charlie is destined to die on the island, and so desmond is trying to prevent that (or charlie will now try to prevent that)? because otherwise, well, everyone is destined to die. so how can that be prevented? i mean, when desmond says, "you're going to die," it's shocking to charlie, but doesn't everyone die someday? so what's the real point here? to thwart the island?

sorry that was totally rambling!!

About the theory that fate doesn't want Charlie and Claire together, I wonder if it's the island that doesn't. Charlie hasn't just been protecting Claire since they've arrived, he's been protecting Aaron. Maybe there's a force on the island that is still trying to get at Aaron and Charlie is an obstacle. It was his dream where he was told he had to save the baby, maybe that's his destiny and the opposing force is trying to eliminate him.

Sorry if this has been noted, but isn't it interesting that in both of the circumstances that Charlie was almost killed he was protecting Claire? First, he went into the tent during the thunderstorm to help protect her and Aaron, then he would have died saving Claire from drowning?

When he's trying to be the stand up guy he was in the past he nearly gets killed! Is he destined not to be that stand up guy? Does fate just really want him to stay away from Claire?

Well Aaron can't be "raised by another". Is there any chance that Charlie is this "other"???

Jenny, good call on the "FATE" finger tape that was never explained to us, and we all passed off as a device to have finger tape lead Kate and Jack to Charlie's hanging spot.
What does it mean that he changed it to "LATE"? Is Des to "late" to save him or something?

I think what is especially difficult about the question posed in this thread is: everyone is going to die. It's just a matter of "when." So how SOON is Charlie fated to die? Does he *have* to die soon? And why?

I don't know if Charlie will die, but I believe that if he does, it'll be saving someone else and doing some noble deed. Otherwise, I think the plot and the themes of this show and the themes of his character will have been in vain.

Sorry if this has been noted, but isn't it interesting that in both of the circumstances that Charlie was almost killed he was protecting Claire? First, he went into the tent during the thunderstorm to help protect her and Aaron, then he would have died saving Claire from drowning?

When he's trying to be the stand up guy he was in the past he nearly gets killed! Is he destined not to be that stand up guy? Does fate just really want him to stay away from Claire?

That's a really good observation. And if Claire is the only one that is supposed to be raising Aaron and not raised by "another", perhaps the island or fate or whatever you want to call it, is protecting Aaron by not allowing Charlie to get close to him. Because if Aaron isn't supposed to be raised by another, then Charlie needs to be out of the picture. Is the island protecting Aaron from Charlie? But if Aaron does grow up influenced by Charlie, what danger befalls him?

Of course this all depends on Mr. Malkin and how credible he is, and he doesn't really seem to be.

Is Charlie destined to die? Tough for me to say without knowing how important he is in the big scheme of things. If Aaron is as important as I think he is, and Charlie is to be viewed as Aaron and Claire's "protector", then he is to play a very important role on the show, and as a result could be caught in between cosmic forces that are battling over his life. Here's a scenario that illustrates this:

* Desmond is correct, Charlie is destined to die, but due to Desmond's "visions", Desmond has been able to stall the process.

* The Island, as Locke suggests demands "sacrifice," so when things don't go it's way (Charlie dying), others (Shannon? Boone? Ana-Lucia? Libby? Mr. Eko?) must pay the price.

Is it possible that each time Charlie heads off death at the pass another Lostie gets his/her wings?

* The Island, as Locke suggests demands "sacrifice," so when things don't go it's way (Charlie dying), others (Shannon? Boone? Ana-Lucia? Libby? Mr. Eko?) must pay the price.

Is it possible that each time Charlie heads off death at the pass another Lostie gets his/her wings?
Ooh, rabidranger, I was wondering this myself. Maybe Charlie figures out a way to defy the island, but pisses it off in the process??

About the theory that fate doesn't want Charlie and Claire together, I wonder if it's the island that doesn't. Charlie hasn't just been protecting Claire since they've arrived, he's been protecting Aaron. Maybe there's a force on the island that is still trying to get at Aaron and Charlie is an obstacle. It was his dream where he was told he had to save the baby, maybe that's his destiny and the opposing force is trying to eliminate him.


Wow. I love this therory. Even though it doesn't really tie into Charlie's past, it makes sence. Out of everyone .. aside from Claire, Charlie has definatly been Aaron's protector.

Ooh, rabidranger, I was wondering this myself. Maybe Charlie figures out a way to defy the island, but pisses it off in the process??

That's the thing, Charlie isn't aware. There's a "higher power" pulling the strings.

I'm a fan of the theory that says if the writers broadcast an impending death, it won't happen. That would be soooooo un-Lost.

On the other hand, is it possible that all the 815's will die? Were they all supposed to die in the crash? Or were they all supposed to arrive at some destination other than the island? Too many things to consider after tonight's episode.


hmmm....that would be an intersting way to end the series, by having them all die. However, TPTB wouldn't have any material for the LOST movie, then. hmmm, maybe the movie will be about the NEXT plane that crashes there! lol And maybe our Lostaways would be the NEW Others, and maybe....
I'm just crazy. lol

If it's true that others are dying in Charlie's place, that may be proven if it happens again, and this time the exchange is more clearly linked. Charlie has had a lot of close calls, but they don't seem connected to the other island deaths so far. But what if the next time we see Charlie get saved and someone else die in the same incident? That might bolster the theory that the island is demanding a sacrifice.

:hug: Oh. Wow. How much do I love this post? *hugs post* You're the greatest. What an amazing message. I hope Desmond doesn't stop trying then. He could really end up being the ultimate hero with his compassion, and finally learn what is good about him.

Great insight. :)

Pace, thanks for the kind words - you're sweet! The funny thing is, I wasn't thinking any of this when I was watching the show. I had time to think while I was trying to get onto the board, lol. I was incredibly touched by the last scene - Desmond had me near tears, and poor Charlie. What must be going through his mind? I can see this revelation actually having an effect on him; if he thinks he's going to die, might he now open up to Claire about his feelings for her? About what he did to Sun? When you think you are going to die, you tend to not hold back, figuring you have nothing to lose. I wonder if it's possible that, for this reason, Charlie does not die. Sometimes accidents happen when people are being overly cautious; if Charlie is now going to be bold and daring, his new attitude may be what changes his future. In that way, Desmond would have saved his life by telling him his grim future.

Pace, thanks for the kind words - you're sweet! The funny thing is, I wasn't thinking any of this when I was watching the show. I had time to think while I was trying to get onto the board, lol. I was incredibly touched by the last scene - Desmond had me near tears, and poor Charlie. What must be going through his mind? I can see this revelation actually having an effect on him; if he thinks he's going to die, might he now open up to Claire about his feelings for her? About what he did to Sun? When you think you are going to die, you tend to not hold back, figuring you have nothing to lose. I wonder if it's possible that, for this reason, Charlie does not die. Sometimes accidents happen when people are being overly cautious; if Charlie is now going to be bold and daring, his new attitude may be what changes his future. In that way, Desmond would have saved his life by telling him his grim future.

That's so cool, I was thinking the same thing. We were talking earlier about how passive Charlie has always been, letting everyone walk all over him. If he thinks his time is short, after he stops sulking he may then buck up and be the man he always wanted to be--get romantic with Claire, confess to Sun about the attack, take responsibility for his life and maybe its these actions that save him. Or, he still dies, but he goes out a fully self-actualized hero at peace with himself. *prays Charlie doesn't die*

Well Aaron can't be "raised by another". Is there any chance that Charlie is this "other"???

Jenny, good call on the "FATE" finger tape that was never explained to us, and we all passed off as a device to have finger tape lead Kate and Jack to Charlie's hanging spot.
What does it mean that he changed it to "LATE"? Is Des to "late" to save him or something?

I think what is especially difficult about the question posed in this thread is: everyone is going to die. It's just a matter of "when." So how SOON is Charlie fated to die? Does he *have* to die soon? And why?

I don't know if Charlie will die, but I believe that if he does, it'll be saving someone else and doing some noble deed. Otherwise, I think the plot and the themes of this show and the themes of his character will have been in vain.

That's another case where Charlie almost died because of association with Claire!! He was with her when Ethan took them and Charlie was left for dead! Also, when Charlie and Sayid were chasing after Danielle who had taken Aaron, Charlie fell for the trap and had the bag of rocks fall on him- that may not have been near death, but he did end up with an unpleasant gun powder experience. Then the whole episode with him and Claire and saving the baby. .. I was thinking tonight that we had seen Charlie run in the water to save someone before- and it was in his dream/vision of saving Aaron. maybe it was a premonition of his death? I'm starting to think Charlie is NOT supposed to be part of Aaron and therefore Claire's life. . .

I think that now that Des has explained to Charlie what he's seen, Charlie will be able to help Des because he knows when Des says something's going to happen, if they don't act to head it off, then disaster will follow.

charlie will die, they will prolly have some desmond try to save him thing then right around may goodbye charlie

I posted in the watching live thread that I have always felt that Charlie would die at some point in the series, but that when he did, it would be at a moment of his own choosing.
Charlie will go out in a heroic sacrifice, not some random accident.

I believe in free will, but I also think that in LOST, one must live in harmony with the will of the Island.

Desmond was supposed to save Charlie from the lightening and drowning...Jack was supposed to save Charlie from hanging.

Charlie has a larger purpose.

I believe he will keep trying to save him and appear to have beaten the Island..but then suddenly Charlie will die.

I have always predicted that this Show ends with Desmond being the only one to get off the Island. I think a great many things point to that...for Love, as they say.

I think that the Island(the woman) saying that he would not be with her, only served to assure me that he would get off Because although he cant save charlie..he will beat it in the end.

There is only one person setup to return home to proclaim victory..and that is Desmond. He must conquer this coward image, claim the girl, and defeat her father. All these other people found what they were looking for on the Island.Think about it. (BTW Jack will find Julia soon)

I believe he will keep trying to save him and appear to have beaten the Island..but then suddenly Charlie will die.

I have always predicted that this Show ends with Desmond being the only one to get off the Island. I think a great many things point to that...for Love, as they say.

I think that the Island(the woman) saying that he would not be with her, only served to assure me that he would get off Because although he cant save charlie..he will beat it in the end.

There is only one person setup to return home to proclaim victory..and that is Desmond. He must conquer this coward image, claim the girl, and defeat her father. All these other people found what they were looking for on the Island.Think about it. (BTW Jack will find Julia soon)

See I think the opposite.. I think Desmond sacrificeing himself for everyone else is far more likely. He seems perfectly set up to be a tragic hero. Factor in how much he would be sacrificeing and the repeted idea that Desmond will never achive greatness, he has this need to prove himself, to do something great. To prove Mr. Widmore .. and his own mind wrong.

I don't think Charlie will die, at least not because of FATE. If Charlie dies it'll be on his own terms. Though I will say this series will not end with Charlie , Desmond and Sawyer all alive, there is absolutely no way. One of them will take the bullet for everyone else.

Perhaps if the numbers are eventually changed and Charlie is alive when it happens, he'll be spared. The whole thing with Lost though is that if someone dies, they never tell you before hand that they will. They want you to me like :eek2: when it happens. The old woman seems to really want Desmond to conform to the idea that he is enslaved to time and space. Though maybe Des isn't a "fool" LOL

I'm wondering now if Charlie was supposed to die after Ethan hung him... and the universe has been course correcting since then trying to off him. I'd have to review the entire series, but I'm pretty sure now we'd be able to spot moment when Charlie may have been saved from certain death.

Come to think of it there are many examples of Losties who were saved from deaths only to die later. Jack saved Boone from drowning in the ocean only to have Boone die when the plane fell down. Locke saved Eko from the polar bear, only to have smokey kill him. Shannon had the severe asthma attack that Sun treated only to be shot later on. Will Charlie break this pattern?

I think Charlie will die at some point, but it will be his own choice (some heroic self-sacrifice to save others, perhaps Claire and/or Aaron) ... this will leave the question open as to whether he was fated to die, or merely chose to.

Quince, I like this possibility :)

Anybody think that Charlie's fate may end up being dependent upon Paulo and Nikki's?


You mean they will die in his place?

I really hope that fulfilling this prediction would be too obvious a way for the writers to go. I'm hoping that this begins a cool storyline for Charlie, ultimately resulting in his being able to change this future.

NOOOOOOOOOO. i got off my couch and fell to my knees to cry, then i thought of you pacejunkie. lol i am soo sad. at first i wa slike omg clairs gonna die poor charlie, poor aaron then as soon as desmond said i was saving you. ahhh:cry:

NOOOOOOOOOO. i got off my couch and fell to my knees to cry, then i thought of you pacejunkie. lol i am soo sad. at first i wa slike omg clairs gonna die poor charlie, poor aaron then as soon as desmond said i was saving you. ahhh:cry:


Yeah, but Charlie's not going to die. He can't, not until they play out this storyline at least. And if this story line gives Charlie more screen time, I maybe ... maybe would be at peace with him dieing at the end of it. But I highly doubt he's dieing at all, and I'm positive that he's not dieing any time soon. Thats the beauty of this story line, theres no need to worry about Charlie until, around the season finale, or when he has another flashback.

ok well i like spoilers so the next 10 epis are NOT charlie centric and hes the lead ia a movie about grave robbers sooooo idk i called my aunt who live in arizona (midngiht there) and she was like i knew you were goignt o call just go to bed and think about it tomarrow hahaha

'Make your own kind of music'

You decide your own destiny. Charlie is far from dead... if the writers stay true to their message - then maybe Charlie's the safest person on this island.


I hope so! Charlie is one of my favorite characters.... I'd much rather they off Jack. Not to mention that "fate can be changed" seems to be one of the main messages of the show. It would suck if they started going all fatalistic now!

More specifically I would ask is Charlie destined to die....for Claire?!

If Charlie had died in either of the two visions that Desmond saw he would have died in the act of saving/protecting Claire. Either Charlie would have shielded Claire from the lightning or he would have drowned in an attempt to rescue Claire from the ocean.

This fated death may well go back to Charlie being hung from a tree by Ethan. Again Charlie was almost killed because he was trying to protect Claire!

Forgive me if this is in any way incoherant; my brain is now officially mush.

As someone up thread said- what if Charlie wasn't supposed to survive the crash and wasn't supposed to be on the island at all. Maybe we should all take a look at what has happened since day one and see how events would have played out if Charlie hadn't been there. For example, would someone else have shot what's his name?

And here's another thought- Hurley may believe the plane crash happened because he was on the plane. Maybe the crash happened because Charlie was on the plane.

Did I mention my brain is mush?

Wasn't he supposed to be sat in a diferent part of the plane right at the start anyway? A part that didn't contain any survivors?

Wow, I really think that Charlie is going to be the star this season. Step aside Jack, Kate and Sawyer! You know how Damon and/or Cuse said that Paulo and Nikki will become iconic? The only way that I see that happening, is if they somehow change fate and somehow die instead of Charlie. I'm really liking this storyline, and it's still early enough in the season for it to play out well.

Don't worry PJ, I think Charlie's here to stay!

I have to say personally that for Charlie to die for Claire would be disappointing. It would show no growth. He's been willing to die for her since day one, and at least as of last night, Claire is no closer to being appreciative of him. It's turning me sour on the relationship again like it did last season and I'm starting to get bitter over the idea of Charlie sacrifising for Claire all the freaking time. Maybe what he really needs to do to break the cycle is to NOT come to her rescue for once and let her stand on her own. That will actually show growth on both their parts.

In all his near-misses, don't forget that the island has constantly brought the heroin back to him (even through Vincent!) The island may be trying to kill him off in lots of different ways, but his free will has kept him intact.

I have to say personally that for Charlie to die for Claire would be disappointing. It would show no growth. He's been willing to die for her since day one, and at least as of last night, Claire is no closer to being appreciative of him. It's turning me sour on the relationship again like it did last season and I'm starting to get bitter over the idea of Charlie sacrifising for Claire all the freaking time. Maybe what he really needs to do to break the cycle is to NOT come to her rescue for once and let her stand on her own. That will actually show growth on both their parts.

You know what? Nobody on the island, or in Charlie's life before the island seem to be appreciative of him. Not Claire, not Locke, or Eko, his brother etc etc. It's so sad :(
Charlie cares so much about people, and wants to help make other's lives better..more than his own I think.

You know what? Nobody on the island, or in Charlie's life before the island seem to be appreciative of him. Not Claire, not Locke, or Eko, his brother etc etc. It's so sad :(
Charlie cares so much about people, and wants to help make other's lives better..more than his own I think.

That may go back to Charlie's passive nature. They treat him that way because he allows it. That's why real growth has to involve in getting proactive and earning the respect he deserves.

Maybe they (whoever the bad guys are) want Charlie to die, because he's interfering by protecting Claire and Aaron, but it seems that Charlie is destined to live. Desmond, who can see the future, keeps saving Charlie (and hence, Claire), so someone is trying to convince him that it's futile, that he doesn't have free will. This would be a clever way to get Desmond to stop interfering.

I'm worried about what will happen if Locke finds out about Charlies death prediction. Locke often seems to be helping fate/destiny along. Locke pretty much led Boone to his death when he saw a prophetic vision of the drugs plane/Boone covered in blood.

Maybe Charlie will give Locke the chance to redeem himself after what happened to Boone. Locke was already being protective of Charlie in 'Further Instructions' when he told Charlie to go back to Claire and stopped Charlie from going into the polar bear cave with him. Could it be that Locke somehow senses this danger that is looming over Charlie?

Maybe they (whoever the bad guys are) want Charlie to die, because he's interfering by protecting Claire and Aaron, but it seems that Charlie is destined to live. Desmond, who can see the future, keeps saving Charlie (and hence, Claire), so someone is trying to convince him that it's futile, that he doesn't have free will. This would be a clever way to get Desmond to stop interfering.

ITA. I'm starting to lean towards the theory that the old lady is "the island" just like Yemi appeared to Eko and told him he had to push the button and then eventually killed him. I think the island is lying and trying to manipulate Desmond into letting Charlie die so it can get to Aaron. I think Charlie's dreams about saving the baby mean he's the only one who can do it and without him it would be tragedy for everyone. If Desmond keep his faith and believes he can change his destiny, he will keep trying to save Charlie and defeat the island's will.

Maybe they (whoever the bad guys are) want Charlie to die, because he's interfering by protecting Claire and Aaron, but it seems that Charlie is destined to live. Desmond, who can see the future, keeps saving Charlie (and hence, Claire), so someone is trying to convince him that it's futile, that he doesn't have free will. This would be a clever way to get Desmond to stop interfering.

Interesting.

I really don't know what the heck is going on, if this is a fake-out by TPTB as in Charlie doesn't die or he escapes death NOW only to die later in the season etc etc.

I do know this that is of course the old classic fate vs. free will. Will Desmond and Charlie just give up and resign themselves to what they think will happen? Charlie will die, Desmond is destined to not be with Penny?

If I were they I would be shaking my fist at the sky and demanding who the hell the x factor was (not God in this case as God allows free will) to make all these decisions about MY life!

And to toot my own horn and the horn of all Charlie lovers everywhere...we always knew Charlie had a greater importance to the story than was at first realized. :D

I'm a fan of the theory that says if the writers broadcast an impending death, it won't happen. That would be soooooo un-Lost.

Case in point: when the previews pointed to "Oooh! Sawyer's going to die from his shoulder wound!" but then Shannon died instead.

I do know this that is of course the old classic fate vs. free will. Will Desmond and Charlie just give up and resign themselves to what they think will happen? Charlie will die, Desmond is destined to not be with Penny?

Right. Essentially Charlie dying would be the cosmic equivalent of Desmond's relationship with Penny dying. So does Desmond have faith that he will see Penny again and that he can win Penny back? If he keeps that faith, he will see to it that it happens, and Charlie surviving is symbolic of that alternate reality. Everyone should now be rooting for that reality because it would be inspirational.

And to toot my own horn and the horn of all Charlie lovers everywhere...we always knew Charlie had a greater importance to the story than was at first realized. :D


Toot! Toot! :toot:

i mean, when desmond says, "you're going to die," it's shocking to charlie, but doesn't everyone die someday? so what's the real point here? to thwart the island?

I think if Charlie dies, Desmond dies.

After all we are talking about a man who (apparently) knows what the last thing he'll read is. Perhaps Desmond also knows that Charlie's death precedes his as well.

All of those references to Desmond being a "coward" can't be for nothing. Desmond is trying to prevent his own death by saving Charlie.

True about the hanging. Jack saves him, but you would think if he was supposed to die he would have. This confuses me. Plus it is encouraging that Desmond was able to change the bartender getting hit, but we don't know if something else would have gotten the bartender the next day. Small things can be changed (like the lightning rod) but they come around the same way in the end. So is Charlie doomed?

The whole idea of the Valenzetti equation is to change the numbers and alter the future. If that's hopeless, what are the implications?

Maybe Desmond getting hit on the head intstead of the bartender changed Charlie's course.

ITA. I'm starting to lean towards the theory that the old lady is "the island" just like Yemi appeared to Eko and told him he had to push the button and then eventually killed him. I think the island is lying and trying to manipulate Desmond into letting Charlie die so it can get to Aaron. I think Charlie's dreams about saving the baby mean he's the only one who can do it and without him it would be tragedy for everyone. If Desmond keep his faith and believes he can change his destiny, he will keep trying to save Charlie and defeat the island's will.
The more I think about this, the more I think you may be right. I'm going to watch again today and see if I pick up on anything that jumps out as isalnd-y about the old lady.
Interesting.

I really don't know what the heck is going on, if this is a fake-out by TPTB as in Charlie doesn't die or he escapes death NOW only to die later in the season etc etc.

I do know this that is of course the old classic fate vs. free will. Will Desmond and Charlie just give up and resign themselves to what they think will happen? Charlie will die, Desmond is destined to not be with Penny?

Maybe the irony is that it's the island that's trying to change destiny - keep Desmond and Penny apart, keep Charlie from protercting Claire and Aaron and whatever his larger purpose is. Then the double irony (:biggrin: ) may be that whatever clever and sophistocated machinations it has up its sleeve, the island can't, in the end, interfere with destiny. Charlie will always save Claire, Desmond will keep saving Charlie, Penny will never give up looking for Desmond. Even the island, with all its power, isn't strong enough to force them to go against their their true natures and give up their inherent free will and right to choose.

I think if Charlie dies, Desmond dies.

After all we are talking about a man who (apparently) knows what the last thing he'll read is. Perhaps Desmond also knows that Charlie's death precedes his as well.

All of those references to Desmond being a "coward" can't be for nothing. Desmond is trying to prevent his own death by saving Charlie.

I don't think it's about Desmond trying to save his own life. Desmond wold want nothing more than to change his fate and end up with Penny, but life is trying to convince him that he will keep making the same decisions over and over. He thinks he is a coward and is trying to break free but can't find a way. Charlie represents that change. If he can save him, he can "save" himself (metaphorically, not physically).

As for everyone dying sooner or later, okay, but no one wants to be told their time is up. Desmond is trying to save a life that he sees is in imminent danger like any compassionate person would do. I don't think Desmond is freaked because he ses Charlie dying in his bed of old age. The reason this is upsetting is because it is a tragic, untimely death. It's a little callous to say whatever, everyone dies eventually. No one says that about an untimely death of a young person.

Charlie will always save Claire, Desmond will keep saving Charlie, Penny will never give up looking for Desmond. Even the island, with all its power, isn't strong enough to force them to go against their their true natures and give up their inherent free will and right to choose.

In other words...they will be caught in a 'loop'.

Why is everyone assuming the island is doing all the bad stuff? Could it be the island is actually the 'thing' that is trying to work against fate? It could be the 'thing' saving Charlie and may have given the precognent gift to Desmond in order to shift the balance?

Maybe Desmond getting hit on the head intstead of the bartender changed Charlie's course.

Oh, good thinking! Or the guy who the old lady didn't save who got hit by the scaffolding. If she had saved him, yes, he would've been hit by a bus the next day, but Charlie would've been killed instead. You could say, well, yes, but then Charlie would've gotten killed the next day, and so on, but each action makes a difference, changes the inextricable chain of interrelated events -- just saving the world, day by day, one person at a time.

I don't think it's about Desmond trying to save his own life. Desmond wold want nothing more than to change his fate and end up with Penny, but life is trying to convince him that he will keep making the same decisions over and over. He thinks he is a coward and is trying to break free but can't find a way. Charlie represents that change. If he can save him, he can "save" himself (metaphorically, not physically).

As for everyone dying sooner or later, okay, but no one wants to be told their time is up. Desmond is trying to save a life that he sees is in imminent danger like any compassionate person would do. I don't think Desmond is freaked because he ses Charlie dying in his bed of old age. The reason this is upsetting is because it is a tragic, untimely death. It's a little callous to say whatever, everyone dies eventually. No one says that about an untimely death of a young person.

Yet the death of Claire isn't tragic or untimely? No, he was saving Charlie. :rolleyes:

Desmond seems to have been given at least 2 chances to change his course (that we've seen). He almost goes ahead in last night's episode and asks Pen to marry him, but if he has to keep Charlie alive in order to keep himself alive, then he has to go to the island (since that's where Charlie is).

No point in staying to marry Pen if he's just going to die anyway after Charlie dies.

See what I mean?

In other words...they will be caught in a 'loop'.

Why is everyone assuming the island is doing all the bad stuff? Could it be the island is actually the 'thing' that is trying to work against fate? It could be the 'thing' saving Charlie and may have given the precognent gift to Desmond in order to shift the balance?

Because I think from the beginning the island has been shown to represent "destiny". When visions have appeared to the characters, they most often have been with the purpose of telling them what they are supposed to do, leading each to a certain fate. I think the visions of Boone, Ana, Yemi and the old lady are all different representations of the island trying to convince the islanders to follow their destiny over acting of their own free will.

In other words...they will be caught in a 'loop'.

Why is everyone assuming the island is doing all the bad stuff? Could it be the island is actually the 'thing' that is trying to work against fate? It could be the 'thing' saving Charlie and may have given the precognent gift to Desmond in order to shift the balance?

You're right -- I misphrased that. I don't think the island is bad -- I think someone deliberately is trying to mess with their sense of free will and control the outcome of events. Not the island.

Yet the death of Claire isn't tragic or untimely? No, he was saving Charlie. :rolleyes:

Desmond seems to have been given at least 2 chances to change his course (that we've seen). He almost goes ahead in last night's episode and asks Pen to marry him, but if he has to keep Charlie alive in order to keep himself alive, then he has to go to the island (since that's where Charlie is).

No point in staying to marry Pen if he's just going to die anyway after Charlie dies.

See what I mean?

No I don't. I don't understand what you mean by keeping himself alive. We've seen no indication that Charlie's death leads to Desmond's own death. All it would mean is that Desmond is the master of his own destiny and if he then gets to do his life over, he knows he'd make the right choices.

No I don't. I don't understand what you mean by keeping himself alive. We've seen no indication that Charlie's death leads to Desmond's own death. All it would mean is that Desmond is the master of his own destiny and if he then gets to do his life over, he knows he'd make the right choices.

What are the "right choices" if the universe is constantly "course correcting"?

I think the island may have a less metaphysical agenda, even though it clothes its appeals in talk of fate and destiny. The island in its natural state has these electromagnetic emanations and anomalies. When Dharma came, it bottled these up, diverted them from free-flowing release. The island wanted that key turned. It has manifested itself with particular strength to the guys who believed in the hatch, because it could see they were prone to that sort of manipulation.

Now, is there something about Aaron that also is going to endanger the island's own natural state, so that's why it's trying to get Charlie out of the way? Just a thought. (I know it doesn't explain why it killed Eko after he did his darnedest to keep pushing the button, unless that itsn't what the island wanted and so it punished him.)

Cardie

What are the "right choices" if the universe is constantly "course correcting"?

That begs the question. If the universe is in fact course correcting, then there really are no choices. But if Desmond has faith and believes he does have free will, then there are no course corrections and he can choose to change his path. If he saves Charlie, he can marry Penny and be the man he wants to be.

i don't think it's Charlie's destiny to die, I think everything can be changed. Even though Locke is my favorite character, most of the time I am more of a Woman of science, if you will!!! Charlie will be okay.

i don't think it's Charlie's destiny to die, I think everything can be changed. Even though Locke is my favorite character, most of the time I am more of a Woman of science, if you will!!! Charlie will be okay.

If you believe that, you are actually a woman of faith. It will take a leap of faith on Desmond's part to believe he can change Charlie's destiny.

That begs the question. If the universe is in fact course correcting, then there really are no choices. But if Desmond has faith and believes he does have free will, then there are no course corrections and he can choose to change his path. If he saves Charlie, he can marry Penny and be the man he wants to be.

Exactly. That's why he was so horrified by what the old lady said about course-correcting (IMO). If it's true then it makes his quest a Sisyphean effort.

I mean most of the time I don't believe in destiny. So how can I be a woman of faith?

I mean most of the time I don't believe in destiny. So how can I be a woman of faith?

Because faith does not equal fatalism. I think many people believe it does, that your future is predetermined, but there is an element of free will to the outcome that must change the course or free will is an illusion. I think believing in that ability to change our destinies is actually an act of faith. At least for Desmond it is, because he's being told to believe he is a victim to fate. It would take a leap of faith in himself and a more complex universe to believe he can transcend his fate and overcome it.

Forgive the long post and all the multi-quoting. So much amazing thinking happened in this thread while I was away from a computer!

Brag time. A post from 1/7/07:
Another thought is that we could take this a further level of convolutedness and say that CHARLIE is the one having the near misses with the lightening and drowning. He was in the tent during the lightening, and maybe Desmond saw Charlie losing to the current as he tried to save Claire. We know Charlie isn't a strong enough swimmer to save a drowning woman. So Desmond jumped in to save them both.

Come to think of it there are many examples of Losties who were saved from deaths only to die later. Jack saved Boone from drowning in the ocean only to have Boone die when the plane fell down. Locke saved Eko from the polar bear, only to have smokey kill him. Shannon had the severe asthma attack that Sun treated only to be shot later on. Will Charlie break this pattern?
Pen, these are good points. We might even be able to come up with more examples. Sawyer certainly has had his share of beatdowns that could have led to his death. Should they all have died in the plane crash?

ITA. I'm starting to lean towards the theory that the old lady is "the island" just like Yemi appeared to Eko and told him he had to push the button and then eventually killed him. I think the island is lying and trying to manipulate Desmond into letting Charlie die so it can get to Aaron.
While I am not sure if the island is trying to get Aaron for a good purpose or a bad one (is Aaron a messianic figure? Does the island want to save the world or destroy it?), I LOVE the idea of the lady being a manifestation of the island. I didn't trust her last night. I think she was deceiving Desmond that fate can't be change, because she was so worried that he WOULD change it. But is she in Desmond's head only, or did the island somehow manifest itself in London?

Well put pacejunkie, I understand what your saying. It will take faith on Desmond's part to think he can change destiny or his fate.

I just hope that Charlie doesn't die before he gets a serious, major beatdown by Jin.

Brag time. A post from 1/7/07

Toot for jenny! :toot:


While I am not sure if the island is trying to get Aaron for a good purpose or a bad one (is Aaron a messianic figure? Does the island want to save the world or destroy it?), I LOVE the idea of the lady being a manifestation of the island. I didn't trust her last night. I think she was deceiving Desmond that fate can't be change, because she was so worried that he WOULD change it. But is she in Desmond's head only, or did the island somehow manifest itself in London?

I think the entire "memory" was in Desmond's head. It all happened to him after the failsafe and before he woke up. He saw things from his past, but all the island easter eggs (108, 815, polar bear, Charlie, Apollo) were all hints that the island is messing with his memories. I think the old lady's appearance was part of the island's manipulations. Maybe the woman really was part of Demsond's past, but it was a meaningless encounter and he walked out without buying the ring. The island is using her form to make her more significant in Desmond's past.

I don't think it's about Desmond trying to save his own life. Desmond wold want nothing more than to change his fate and end up with Penny, but life is trying to convince him that he will keep making the same decisions over and over. He thinks he is a coward and is trying to break free but can't find a way. Charlie represents that change. If he can save him, he can "save" himself (metaphorically, not physically).

As for everyone dying sooner or later, okay, but no one wants to be told their time is up. Desmond is trying to save a life that he sees is in imminent danger like any compassionate person would do. I don't think Desmond is freaked because he ses Charlie dying in his bed of old age. The reason this is upsetting is because it is a tragic, untimely death. It's a little callous to say whatever, everyone dies eventually. No one says that about an untimely death of a young person.


One thing that stood out to me was that when Desmond warned the bartender, it save the bartender and Desmond got hit instead. Could it be that in warning Charlie and preventing his death, desmond will be killed instead?

I just keep remembering Charlie early in season 1 writing FATE on his fingers. I think Charlie was supposed to die on numerous occassions, but he has not. Simply, he is an exception to the rule, the type of exception that will allow humanity to keep existing, the exception that goes against the Valenzetti equation, and proves the equation wrong.

There is one flaw with the woman's idea of fatalism in Desmond's flashback. She told Desmond that it was his path to press the button and turn the key and if he doesn't "we" all die (whoever "we" is). So then are "we" fated to die or fated to live? If we're fated to die, then "we" are going to die--there's no need for Desmond to turn the key. If we're fated to live, when why does it matter if Desmond turns the key? According to her own words, the universe course-corrects itself, so if "we" are fated to live, it doesn't matter if Desmond turns the key, the universe will course-correct and make sure something happens so that "we" all live.

But the fact that she said that Desmond *has* to turn the key to prevent us all from dying tells me that Desmond does have power over fate (or that things aren't as fatalistic as she wants Des to believe).

Toot for jenny! :toot:
Thanks!!!


I think the entire "memory" was in Desmond's head. It all happened to him after the failsafe and before he woke up. He saw things from his past, but all the island easter eggs (108, 815, polar bear, Charlie, Apollo) were all hints that the island is messing with his memories. I think the old lady's appearance was part of the island's manipulations. Maybe the woman really was part of Demsond's past, but it was a meaningless encounter and he walked out without buying the ring. The island is using her form to make her more significant in Desmond's past.
Yes... but if you think this, then why ask the question if Charlie is destined to die? Don't we only have to worry about fate ensuring Charlie's death if we believe Desmond's memories were accurate?

One thing that stood out to me was that when Desmond warned the bartender, it save the bartender and Desmond got hit instead. Could it be that in warning Charlie and preventing his death, desmond will be killed instead?

Possibly. I guess we'll have to wait and see as Gregg would say.

Yes... but if you think this, then why ask the question if Charlie is destined to die? Don't we only have to worry about fate ensuring Charlie's death if we believe Desmond's memories were accurate?

Because I want to know what everyone else thinks of course. ;) It's just my belief (and fervent prayer) that Charlie is not destined to die because free will means something. But maybe I'm wrong. I'm interesting in hearing the compelling and insightful arguments on all sides. Most importantly, if fate is unavoidable and Charlie must die, what does that mean for the broader theme of the show? How would you feel about that? I know I wouldn't feel warm and fuzzy.

Not as strong as jennylee's but here's the post (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showpost.php?p=1237590&postcount=4)where I said it's Charlie's future Desmond saw (in the EMFH episode board):

Or maybe he saw Charlie's future the same way he saw Locke's speech - because they're all connected after the hatch incident.

Will Desmond be able to see everyone's death or it's only Charlie? How come he sees Charlie dying and not Eko? Why only Charlie? :confused:

I think it's only Charlie because for some reason Charlie's survival is of the utmost importance to how events play out on the island for all of them. I think all the other deaths up to now were inconsequential for the bigger picture, even if they affected certain individuals and their actions. I think Charlie is more important than that and the island wants him gone.

I do think the "flashback" was an island-produced vision of Des's past with his experiences on the island up to this point cut in, done as a lesson that all our actions are pre-determined and trying to avoid fate just leads to its realization in a different form.

But two crucial questions remain unanswered. Were the flashes before his eyes of his whole life, from which his premonitions derive, the same thing as this vision, or are they different, like the brief flashes we see before he awakens on the floor with the red paint? When did Des first have a vision on the island? When he knew about Locke's speech?

If the premonitions of the future also come from the island's messing with his head, do they have predictive power. Locke's vision of a blood-covered Boone came true. If the island does "know the future," how does it know. Or does it just have plans that it makes come true by manipulating the vulnerable to enable self-fulfilling prophecies.

IOW, I don't think Charlie is "fated" to die, but the island sure as heck wants to maneuver events into getting rid of him. Des telling Charlie could be the real way that the island is pursuing its goal, causing Charlie to act in a reckless manner and court the death that has been predicted.

Cardie

I have been waiting for this moment for 3 YEARS! I am very excited to see Charlie kick the bucket. :biggrin:

DING DONG the hobbit's dead!

I just keep remembering Charlie early in season 1 writing FATE on his fingers.
OMG thanks for remnding me! That could be a clue, and also proof the producers know where they're going in the series for all those skeptics out there.

I think it's only Charlie because for some reason Charlie's survival is of the utmost importance to how events play out on the island for all of them.

Agreed. Charlie is the moth, after all.

There's a fine line between fate and destiny. Is Charlie destined to die? Hell if I know. All I can say is, I can't wait to see how this pans out!

I wouldn't worry too much about what the lady said, since, imho, she, and all the flashback are dreams. The lady expresses what is in Desmonds mind, and desmond is concerned about his vision of charlie dying. that is all.

Agreed. Charlie is the moth, after all.

Does that mean he dies if he ever reaches The Flame station? :devil:

Cardie

Does that mean he dies if he ever reaches The Flame station? :devil:

Cardie

By the same token, will Charlie be drawn to the Flame station? ;)

I think what is helpful and relevant about The Moth is that Locke told Charlie that he was more than just an animal that acted on instinct, that he had the ability to make choices in his life. It was based on that reasoning that he chose to throw his drugs away, and despite the back that they kept coming back, he kept throwing them away, turning them down, etc. Fate seems to want him to be a junkie, but Charlie's had other ideas and it's working.

If the truth is now different, that Charlie's choices really make no difference and fate is fate, then the whole message of The Moth has no meaning. Then we really are nothing more than animals driven by forces beyond our control. Charlie might as well have stayed a junkie.

Myabe by tossing his drugs away the last time, he is actually helping to choose a different path for himself all on his own and in the end he won't need Desmond's help to survive. He'll do it with the choices he makes.

By the same token, will Charlie be drawn to the Flame station? ;)

I think what is helpful and relevant about The Moth is that Locke told Charlie that he was more than just an animal that acted on instinct, that he had the ability to make choices in his life. It was based on that reasoning that he chose to throw his drugs away, and despite the back that they kept coming back, he kept throwing them away, turning them down, etc. Fate seems to want him to be a junkie, but Charlie's had other ideas and it's working.

If the truth is now different, that Charlie's choices really make no difference and fate is fate, then the whole message of The Moth has no meaning. Then we really are nothing more than animals driven by forces beyond our control. Charlie might as well have stayed a junkie.

Myabe by tossing his drugs away the last time, he is actually helping to choose a different path for himself all on his own and in the end he won't need Desmond's help to survive. He'll do it with the choices he makes.
I've been amazed at all this great discussion and heartened that people really do care about Charlie! I have nothing original to add but to agree with the idea that one of the overriding themes of Lost is the journey that each character is on to change or redeem themselves from what they were pre-island. If fate is predestined, then there would be no point to that. Even Locke, the biggest fatalist of all (until Desmond took on the yoke last night) taught Charlie that a person has control over their own destiny when he challenged him to give up drugs.

Hope it's all right if I show solidarity too by sporting your quote in my siggy, pace! :biggrin:

perhaps i'm simplifying things too much but if desmond has saved charlie from dying twice so far... like desmond said, how long can he keep it up? one way or another destiny will get what it wants; charlie dead.

it would be a nice "twist" for the writers to just bluntly hand the next future character death; just by telling us that it would happen!

PJ, I think it's a very strong possibility that the ring lady is a manifestation of the island. Here's another contradiction with her actions last night. If she knows Desmond's fate is to push the button, then she doesn't have to convince him or talk him, he would just eventually do it. Just like the guy dying, she was certain he would die eventually. Her actions seem to indicate that Des could choose, but she wanted him to believe otherwise.

Forgive the long post and all the multi-quoting. So much amazing thinking happened in this thread while I was away from a computer!

Brag time. A post from 1/7/07:




Pen, these are good points. We might even be able to come up with more examples. Sawyer certainly has had his share of beatdowns that could have led to his death. Should they all have died in the plane crash?


Yes, even having Jack and Hurley as well. what I'm curious about is how saving Charlie changes things. If Charlie is the key factor, why him?



There is one flaw with the woman's idea of fatalism in Desmond's flashback. She told Desmond that it was his path to press the button and turn the key and if he doesn't "we" all die (whoever "we" is). So then are "we" fated to die or fated to live? If we're fated to die, then "we" are going to die--there's no need for Desmond to turn the key. If we're fated to live, when why does it matter if Desmond turns the key? According to her own words, the universe course-corrects itself, so if "we" are fated to live, it doesn't matter if Desmond turns the key, the universe will course-correct and make sure something happens so that "we" all live.

But the fact that she said that Desmond *has* to turn the key to prevent us all from dying tells me that Desmond does have power over fate (or that things aren't as fatalistic as she wants Des to believe).


Yes this is another flaw in what the woman is saying, she's really not making complete sense.

Hope it's all right if I show solidarity too by sporting your quote in my siggy, pace! :biggrin:

Absolutely. The more the merrier. :)

perhaps i'm simplifying things too much but if desmond has saved charlie from dying twice so far... like desmond said, how long can he keep it up? one way or another destiny will get what it wants; charlie dead.

Yes, that's the simple answer if you believe that destiny or fate will always win out and free will has no meaning. That is the crux of the whole debate here. Something could alter Charlie's path or we're all just a bunch of moths. :)

ETA: Whoah! Hi Gregg! Please don't kill my Charlie! Save the Junkie, save the world!

Actually I thought the whole Moth thing was a reference to Ray Bradbury's A Sound of Thunder. Charlie being the moth.

There's a very simple answer to the original question, and it's the same answer for all of us.

"Is Charlie destined to die?" Yes. It's the one common fact about all humans...all life. Eventually it ends.

If FBYE says anything it says:
1. What's important are the choices you make
2. You're around long enough to fulfill your destiny and no longer. But knowing what your destiny is may only come after the fact, looking back.

Yes, Charlie will die along with all the other characters eventually (yes, yes, they're only fictional, so they don't really die, etc., etc.)

The important question is:
"What will Charlie do knowing this information?"

The same question we each should ask, knowing our fate is the same as his eventually.

There's a very simple answer to the original question, and it's the same answer for all of us.

"Is Charlie destined to die?" Yes. It's the one common fact about all humans...all life. Eventually it ends.

If FBYE says anything it says:
1. What's important are the choices you make
2. You're around long enough to fulfill your destiny and no longer. But knowing what your destiny is may only come after the fact, looking back.

Yes, Charlie will die along with all the other characters eventually (yes, yes, they're only fictional, so they don't really die, etc., etc.)

The important question is:
"What will Charlie do knowing this information?"

The same question we each should ask, knowing our fate is the same as his eventually.

Of course this is true, but I guess my initial question was based more on the knee jerk reaction of will Charlie die a tragic untimely death as Desmond foresees and believes he can't prevent? Certainly this bit of news will have an interesting effect on what he chooses to do now with the rest of his life, however long that will be. Will he confess to Sun, be more confident with Claire, etc. I guess my question dealt with the larger issue of can you ever change your fate, which I think is the question they are presenting with the old lady. In other words, are the choices you make really important? Do they matter if your path is fixed?

Great theories!

So, the island wants Charlie next??
this is seems odd to me because the writers let us know that one of the main character (Charlie) is going to die in the future.. what gives? why giving out the thrill to find out who's going to die?
another questions raised.. well, im LOST ...

Jenny, I can't believe all you spoiler people knew about the drowning back on Jan 7!!! That's a crazy amount of detail!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by jennylee27 http://www.thefuselage.org/Threaded/images/PurpleRoseNight/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.thefuselage.org/Threaded/showthread.php?p=1378154#post1378154)
Forgive the long post and all the multi-quoting. So much amazing thinking happened in this thread while I was away from a computer!

Brag time. A post from 1/7/07:

Does that mean he dies if he ever reaches The Flame station? :devil:

CardieGreat point. Maybe he'll be drawn, but won't go in. Hopefully he won't martyr himself in some way for Claire.

Fate seems to want him to be a junkie, but Charlie's had other ideas and it's working.

If the truth is now different, that Charlie's choices really make no difference and fate is fate, then the whole message of The Moth has no meaning. Then we really are nothing more than animals driven by forces beyond our control. Charlie might as well have stayed a junkie.

Or not. Maybe Fate wants more for him, despite the overwhelming pull to self-destruction (Flame, drugs). Charlie changed his finger tape from LATE (dead?) to FATE (alive despite the odds). He resisted the drugs despite everything. I wouldn't be surprised if the heroin (if that's what was really in the statues -- how do we really know?) would have killed him. Maybe it killed Libby in a euthenasia-type way.

I guess my question dealt with the larger issue of can you ever change your fate, which I think is the question they are presenting with the old lady. In other words, are the choices you make really important? Do they matter if your path is fixed?

If fate had complete control, there would be no need for the old lady or course correction. Something is manipulating the the sense of free will.

Also, I've been wondering about the MacHutcheon bottle. It sure was a sinister shade of red. How do we differentiate between the flashes Desmond experienced immediately after the failsafe and the (head explodes) recollection and recall of the flashes after drinking the whiskey? Maybe something about the drink allowed his memory of the flashes to be manipulated. After all, Desmond only came to the ultimate conclusion that it was useless to oppose fate (and save Charlie) at the end of the show, after remembering his flashes -- not after his original experience of them. Maybe in the original experience, after turning the key, the old lady wasn't present. She was inserted into the collage afterward, into a memory once removed (and affected by the whiskey). Otherwise, why bother to save Charlie the first two times?

I think that your end can be predetermined but that the choices you make along the way are the important ones. What Des needs to learn is that free will involves one's own destiny. Until he knows that nothing he will ever do can reunite him with Penny to declare his love, then he doesn't know anything about destiny. All he knows is that he can't save Charlie. Whether Charlie can save himself or whether he still dies in the near term but after having made redemptive choices is up to Charlie and his exercise of free will.

The whole predestination paradox in theology is that God knows our destinies from the beginning, but that doesn't take away choice. What God sees, being omnipresent in time and space, is the result of our choices. God knows what we will choose before we make those choices but does not force us to make them.

Cardie

I wonder if there's a way that Charlie can get FATE to give in? Like maybe Charlie could talk to the island (Locke style) and persuade it not to kill him.

Jenny, I can't believe all you spoiler people knew about the drowning back on Jan 7!!! That's a crazy amount of detail!!!
We saw a short clip of it as a Lost Moment aired during the hiatus. But, I must say, we never did solve a core mystery of the scene - why Claire went swimming in her clothes.

I still so undecided on whether or not Charlie will or will not die. But as I look back at his time on the island I see all these times that he was in real danger. He did die when he was hung and if not for Jack's willingness not to give up and let his die Charlie would already be dead. It makes me wonder if Charlie is suppose to die.

That being said if this is in fact what will happen and Charlie will die, this is certainly a big spin and a big difference in previous deaths. A totally different kind of way. We've always had this unexpected thing when a death occurs. Except the ones who read spoilers :)
A new and fresh way. So yeah if this is to happen, we will be expecting it but still we'll not know how he'll die or when he will die and will be unconciously keep saving him as they've been doing? That is if Charlie was indeed marked from the beginning which isn't clear yet.

Really dumb idea but if Desmond is seeing things 'out of synch' could he have 'seen' Charlie dangling from the end of a rope and think that is the way he is going to die...not knowing that event has already taken place?

Really dumb idea but if Desmond is seeing things 'out of synch' could he have 'seen' Charlie dangling from the end of a rope and think that is the way he is going to die...not knowing that event has already taken place?

I thought of that Elf but I think the viewers would feel royally cheated if Charlie finally asks Desmond how he dies and Desmond tells him and Charlie's all, "Oh, that! That already happened. You got me all scared for nothing you lunatic." :biggrin:

Des didn't say he knows how Charlie will die, he said he saw him get hit by lightning, then he saw him drown. Now that he saved him from drowning, he doesn't know what the next thing will be until he sees it (hopefully in plenty of time to do something about it), so I don't think it can be a moment from the past.

I don't think it's a dumb idea. Of course, it could have a dumb ( ;) ) resolution:

Desmond: I saw you dangling from a tree, blindfolded, dead.
Charlie: It's ok mate. That already happened. I lived.

Edit: Cross posted with PJ!

Ha! Jenny, we cross posted with the same joke. :biggrin:

So the next time danger threatens Charlie.. Desmond is just going to sit back and enjoy the surf?

I think Des is still going to save Charlie, though I do wonder how many times they will actually show this, now that we know Des sees when Charlie is dying it's a bit anticlimatic to watch him save Charlie. Though I can envision a scenario where Des is trapped or can't get to Charlie, but he has a flash where Charlie dies.

This could get tedious and pretty silly awfully fast, and poor Des would be exhausted. He's not Superman. This has to come to a resolution somehow or it will never end.

Technically, didn't all of the castaways escape death? I mean, they were all involved in a plane crash that should have killed them. So really, they all cheated death once. Maybe death is finding a way to get all of them back. Which may mean that we shouldn't be so much just worried for Charlie, but worried for everyone.

I didn't get to read through all the posts but I'm nearly dead from exhaustion and HAD to post.....

I think that this is going to be like the movie "A Knight's Tale" where Heath Ledger's character learns to "change his stars"...Charlie can change his fate. I don't know how but I think he can and will. It would be a pretty lousy writer to say "YOU ARE DOOOOOOOOMED AND THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH" Of course I could be wrong (it wouldn't be the first time)....

Wow. I have to say this whole fate/free will examination within the show, on these boards, and the thoughts on it are great. You are some amazing fans. Heros may have some cool action, but the real depth of story telling and imagination is on this show.

As a Christian (and I'm sure other faiths) you come to realization of this idea of fate/free will. You come to find out there are different views on this and scripture isn't really absolutely clear one way or the other (although some denominations would disagree with that statement). So personally I have a lot of thoughts on this idea in my own life, but also on the show.

I am hoping that they actually keep it a bit of mystery as, in my opinion, it is a mystery to us in this life. Whether we have free will or we don't. I personally believe we have free will and I also believe in fate. How I reconcile those without living a life of contradiction is what I see as one being within the realm of time and the other being outside of it. That being said, there is still a bit of mystery involved. I believe ultimately there is one that is more preeminante than the other. I'm not sure which one. I think this show may come down on one side, but it will not wholly discount the other. I believe the show will do this by answering some specific questions within the story line, but it will not try to answer a life question in general.

I wonder if this will turn Desmond into a REAL fatalist? He no longer does anything for anyone because 'what's the point' so he sits on the beach and drinks all day.

I wonder if Charlie regrets throwing the drugs away? Hey...if your time is limited might as well be stoned so you don't have to think about it. :D Kidding...I'm JUST kidding.

I wonder if this will turn Desmond into a REAL fatalist? He no longer does anything for anyone because 'what's the point' so he sits on the beach and drinks all day.

He already is that way. That's exactly how he was when he came back to the island and did nothing but drink. He gave Sayid his boat but wouldn't help him. I think Locke helped him to regain a bit of faith so now he's trying again, but I think he tries to save Cahrlie because he just can't help himself. He's not sure what he believes but if he sees someone in danger, he can't stand idly by. He was horrified that the old lady could.

I wonder if Charlie regrets throwing the drugs away? Hey...if your time is limited might as well be stoned so you don't have to think about it. :D Kidding...I'm JUST kidding.

No you weren't. :rolleyes: Seriously, I would imagine that one of the thousands of things going through Charlie's mind right now is, I gave up heroin for this?

I have been reading some of the posts concerning the Oasis song that Charlie was singing.."You're going to be the one who saves me'. I wonder if that couldn't have more than one meaning? We are assuming that it refers to the fact that Desmond 'saved' Charlie from the lightning and drowning...but what if it means that eventually some how some way Desmond WILL ultimately 'save' Charlie.

And couldn't just Charlie simply 'knowing' what Desmond knows upset the time space thingie or whatever?

And I really like your avatar Pace! I like hetro- man hugs. :D

We used to talk about death and predestination over in Charmed. That show did subscribe to the theory that when it's your time, it's your time.

However, personally I'm not really buying it. If someone is predestined to die, then one would think we'd hear more stories in real life about people nearly escaping death, only to die the next day. I had a 17-year old student die a couple years ago. I really don't think that death would have kept coming after her if she hadn't gotten on the back of her friend's motorcycle, a decision that ultimately led to her death.

Agre