Hey guys

We know that the flashbacks..the ones everyone get are just memories. Desmond was asked what happened and he had the flashback(just like all other characters do when thinking of something in their past that relates to the present situation)

Desmond thinks back to the hatch prior to the explosion--and after he turns the key--he is thrown back into time. This is not a flashback within a flashback. Like good writers do they plant doubt that this concusion may be a dream of a concusion(the paint cans)--they also cast doubt with the failed prediction in the bar and desmond theorizing he is talking to his concious

All this is proved wrong--very clearly people--by desmond having the day wrong in the bar, and most surely the in the way he tried to change the past in the bar--something that is directly paralled to his attemps to save Charlie--which are real events.

They didnt leave any doubt that desmond traveled to the past. He then returned--as he is rememering in his flashback when he finds the picture on the Island. Note also, that this memory was not interupted by going back to the Island, as to portray it as one stream of information.

He also experinced some significant flashes of the future as he expained/

I think it was also clear the woman was the Island entity that talks to the survivors.. She spoke in the same cryptic, creepy way Eko's brother did , (specifing the button should have been pushed, speaking destiny driven language).The monster entity produced flashes of life scenes as well.

So thats my take. I dont believe I unraveled anything. I think this was all very clearly portrayed for us to know by the writers. It seems they are aware of the frustration of viewers and are setting out to explain things. From some of the post I read..it seems people just dont take things at face value because of all the cons...but I think they are trying to spell this out for us. Remember the Hawkings book on Time too.

Hey guys

We know that the flashbacks..the ones everyone get are just memories. Desmond was asked what happened and he had the flashback(just like all other characters do when thinking of something in their past that relates to the present situation)

Desmond thinks back to the hatch prior to the explosion--and after he turns the key--he is thrown back into time. This is not a flashback within a flashback. Like good writers do they plant doubt that this concusion may be a dream of a concusion(the paint cans)--they also cast doubt with the failed prediction in the bar and desmond theorizing he is talking to his concious

All this is proved wrong--very clearly people--by desmond having the day wrong in the bar, and most surely the in the way he tried to change the past in the bar--something that is directly paralled to his attemps to save Charlie--which are real events.

They didnt leave any doubt that desmond traveled to the past. He then returned--as he is rememering in his flashback when he finds the picture on the Island. Note also, that this memory was not interupted by going back to the Island, as to portray it as one stream of information.

He also experinced some significant flashes of the future as he expained/

I think it was also clear the woman was the Island entity that talks to the survivors.. She spoke in the same cryptic, creepy way Eko's brother did , (specifing the button should have been pushed, speaking destiny driven language).The monster entity produced flashes of life scenes as well.

So thats my take. I dont believe I unraveled anything. I think this was all very clearly portrayed for us to know by the writers. It seems they are aware of the frustration of viewers and are setting out to explain things. From some of the post I read..it seems people just dont take things at face value because of all the cons...but I think they are trying to spell this out for us. Remember the Hawkings book on Time too.
Good post, John. While I haven't quite gotten my mind around everything they showed tonight (I'm here reading & thinking instead of sleeping), you make some very good points. And i think your best one may be that so many of us refuse to take some things at face value, and forget about Occam's razor. Now if I could just cram my brain back into my skull and get some rest... :)

I just wanted to comment on the Time LOOP thing some people are mentioning.

There is no Time Loop

If it was a time Loop he wouldnt have asked to go back

Plus..if you think because they showed the scene where Charlie is asking him about the premonition and calling him a coward **again at the end--that is a Lost editing technique they use all the time. In fact, they did it in the prior episode with Jack in the operating room.(Kate RUN)-- Was that a loop too? They repeat scenes to highlite context all the time.

Desmond also made it clear that the flashes of the future are continuing. As he got another flash which caused him to run a mile to the beach to save charlie from going in the water. He said the flashes wont stop.

Its no Loop. He was knocked back in time ONCE..because he was next to the reactor when it overloaded--thats why he was naked(Terminator used as a reference to the audience to explain Time Travel has happened). He got flashs of his entire future life then --and continues to get them as events are changed

I just wanted to comment on the Time LOOP thing some people are mentioning.

There is no Time Loop



Be careful with that... I've beenc atching a lot of heat here by saying there's no loop. :)

On a different note, some people are saying that what Desmond experienced was a dream... that he never went back in time, he just had a vivid dream and maybe "the island" was talking to him through the old woman. What do you think about that?

Hey

This is what I dont get. I think people are so busy looking for clues that they dont see whats actually on the screen

They left no doubt whatsover that he went back in time. They purposely created doubt in the story in order to debunk it. A device used all the time in dream sequences. Character hits his head--questions whether he is dreaming---seems to find proof..then events totally debunk that its not a dream. They did all that

But in this case he even actually sees the future After !! and is naked!! and asks to go back!! It seems people just dont want to accept it

About the idea that the *Island is on a loop. This is another case of leaping to conclusions that are not on the screen. This is a case of a person wanting to be creative..when thats the job of the actual writers

About the woman/monster implanting a dream. Well thats possible. But think about this logically--Is that what the episode tried to show us? NO..it showed us that he went back in time.

We shouldnt base opinions on the opposite of what they showed us --especially when the writers are in a stage of trying explain what is going on to viewers--some of which are getting bored with being stringed along as of late

Hey

This is what I dont get. I think people are so busy looking for clues that they dont see whats actually on the screen

They left no doubt whatsover that he went back in time. They purposely created doubt in the story in order to debunk it. A device used all the time in dream sequences. Character hits his head--questions whether he is dreaming---seems to find proof..then events totally debunk that its not a dream. They did all that

But in this case he even actually sees the future After !! and is naked!! and asks to go back!! It seems people just dont want to accept it

About the idea that the *Island is on a loop. This is another case of leaping to conclusions that are not on the screen. This is a case of a person wanting to be creative..when thats the job of the actual writers

About the woman/monster implanting a dream. Well thats possible. But think about this logically--Is that what the episode tried to show us? NO..it showed us that he went back in time.

We shouldnt base opinions on the opposite of what they showed us --especially when the writers are in a stage of trying explain what is going on to viewers--some of which are getting bored with being stringed along as of late

I agree completely. If it was all a dream then the entire episode (or at least the parts off-island) become pretty meaningless. I don't think TPTB would waste a great long flashback like that for nothing.

I just want to know who that woman was. I wonder if we'll ever see her again.

I agree completely. If it was all a dream then the entire episode (or at least the parts off-island) become pretty meaningless. I don't think TPTB would waste a great long flashback like that for nothing.

I just want to know who that woman was. I wonder if we'll ever see her again.

No, it does not automatically become meaningless. For all we know, this dream sequence sould have been similar to what we have seen Eko, Locke, Claire, Hurley, Charlie, and Jack experience... something trying to manipulate them. The whole fate vs. free will debate is definitely a major theme of this show, and Ms. Hawking's conversation with Desmond was a great way to revisit this theme. Heck, if we are going by what "the writers want us to understand", didn't Desmond say that he "saw his life flash before his eyes"? That is the way he now interprets what happened to him once the failsafe key was turned. And now he is still seeing those flashes... why, no one knows. But psychic phenomena has been a subject on the show before... maybe now we will learn much more about it in the context of Lost.

If it were a dream, why would TPTB have put the easter egg in last week about not being enslaved by time and space. Clearly, something is going on with time and it's not what we would expect. I'm wondering whether all the flashbacks might be instances of people going off the island briefly, then returning. That might explain how Kate's horse ended up on the island, just like Desmond's picture.

No, it does not automatically become meaningless. For all we know, this dream sequence sould have been similar to what we have seen Eko, Locke, Claire, Hurley, Charlie, and Jack experience... something trying to manipulate them. The whole fate vs. free will debate is definitely a major theme of this show, and Ms. Hawking's conversation with Desmond was a great way to revisit this theme. Heck, if we are going by what "the writers want us to understand", didn't Desmond say that he "saw his life flash before his eyes"? That is the way he now interprets what happened to him once the failsafe key was turned. .

Your forgeting he says "send me back"..and just about everything else I just said.:)

This is what is happening. People are not remembering the episode exactly or they dont want to accept what they showed us. They clearly showed this was not a dream. You dont ask to get sent back to a dream so you can change that dream.

In fact the writers said before they episode "When is a flashback Not a flashback".. Damon also said . "It'll either blow people's minds or chase them away for good." . Now , do you really think a dream would do this?


You said--Desmond said that he "saw his life flash before his eyes"?

and then what does he say?

He says...and then I was back. Back in the Jungle.. here on this island.

Dont get stuck on the woman/entity. It surely seems like the monster/island because of what I said in the first post.. This part is not clearly spelled out like the time travel was though.

There are a huge number of possibilties. The entity could have been thrown back with desmond or may not be bound by Time and space at all in the first place. In any case, it could have taken the form of that woman to manipulate or teach Desmond.

What people seem to be missing is the woman had 2 messages--
Time cannot ultimately be changed.
And if the button is not pushed WE all will Die

One or both could be a lie. We dont know.
But we do know Desmond is given the Superman death paradox....save the girl or save the people. It seems like he weeps that we couldnt do either when he gets back

when Desmond gets back--he looks at the destroyed hatch and weeps --knowing the button can no longer be pushed--
Watch it again and look at his reaction to the hole where the hatch was. Its not clear to me if the woman and/or Desmond thought they could prevent the failsafe.

Its no Loop. He was knocked back in time ONCE.

I *think* I believe the time travel thing. But how could he have only gone back once?

First time -> Saw Charlie get struck by lightning

Which leads us to the second time back, because otherwise how would he have known Charlie had been killed by lightning?

Second time -> Saved Charlie from lightning and saw him drown
Third time (we see this one?) -> Saved Charlie from drowning and lightning.

But if this is true, then how did he go back after the first and second times, given that both were after the hatch implosion?

Or maybe Desmond doesn't actually know that Charlie would have died in both of those events... I don't know, just a possibility.

Hey

Its because there are 2 elements here...the flashes of the future and the time travel. He still gets the flashes.

--thats why he was naked(Terminator used as a reference to the audience to explain Time Travel has happened).

Okay, that's just hilarious.

Audience asks: "Well how do we know Desmond was time traveling?"
Answer: "Because he is naked, duh. Remember Terminator?"

How dumb of me to not understand the writer's clear explanation of the situation.

Did you see the flaming tire streaks of Desmond's Delorean? That's actually when it clicked for me.

[quote=John Burger;1380447]Hey

This is what I dont get. I think people are so busy looking for clues that they dont see whats actually on the screen

quote]

That can be said to be equally true of the non- Time Loop camp! There is evidence (which I have mentioned in numerous threads) for both theories, no doubt intentionally because look at the debate it has sparked :biggrin: :biggrin:

Hey

Its because there are 2 elements here...the flashes of the future and the time travel. He still gets the flashes.

So then the flashes are completely unrelated to the time travel.

But then what was the point of the time travel... for him to learn that the course of nature shouldn't be changed?

Okay, that's just hilarious.

Audience asks: "Well how do we know Desmond was time traveling?"
Answer: "Because he is naked, duh. Remember Terminator?"

How dumb of me to not understand the writer's clear explanation of the situation.

Did you see the flaming tire streaks of Desmond's Delorean? That's actually when it clicked for me.

Its just a small piece of the puzzle. Its not dumb not to understand that writers use elements from other TTravel stories. This is very common in Sci-fi. Star Trek terms and happenings are the most commonly used.

It is quite puzzling, however, to reject something so blatently clear as desmond going back in time just because you dont want it to be so. All I can say is a lot of crow is going to be eaten here :)..because this isnt a theory. It was right on the screen as plain as day.

Yes, but how can you be so sure that whatever is going on is going to follow a rigid set of rules based on things that have happened in other dream sequences. It seems to me that by wanting this show to be different, that they would try to use similar devices in a new way, to create a new kind of experience for the viewers.



Logically? The show doesn't always follow what the viewer thinks is going to be logical. I think that what the show intended was that the island is in control of more than we know. It can control what they see and maybe even a little of what they think/remember.

I'm likin' what your saying John. I also believe there's something going on with Time, and that Desmond actually went back in time (whether physcially or mentally, I can't quite place it), and I certaintly don't believe in the time loop theory, in the way people are putting it across anyway (That the entire island, and everyone on it, has gone back in time and everything will now loop- ie. Dharma will arive, refurbish the hatches, Danielle will arrive with her team and kill them etc...).

I do think the issue of time will have more of an impact on the entire island and what's going on then just Desmond travelling back after turning the key and gaining pre-cognitive abilities, but again, I can't quite place what that might be. But I keep going back to the Adam & Eve skeletons and the possiblity that there 2 of the Losties (most likely Jack and Kate, after recently reading that Javi once gave a cryptic response where he indicated that Adam & Eve could very well be Jack and Kate... But again, that lends heavilly on the time loop theory, and I'm just not sold on that yet. Too many inconsitencies. If this is the first time it's looped, then Adam and Eve wouldn't have been there. If it's not the first time, shouldn't there be 2 of every person. At least. 2 Danielle's, 2 Juliet's etc...)

I'm likin' what your saying John. I also believe there's something going on with Time, and that Desmond actually went back in time (whether physcially or mentally, I can't quite place it), and I certaintly don't believe in the time loop theory, in the way people are putting it across anyway (That the entire island, and everyone on it, has gone back in time and everything will now loop- ie. Dharma will arive, refurbish the hatches, Danielle will arrive with her team and kill them etc...).

I do think the issue of time will have more of an impact on the entire island and what's going on then just Desmond travelling back after turning the key and gaining pre-cognitive abilities, but again, I can't quite place what that might be. But I keep going back to the Adam & Eve skeletons and the possiblity that there 2 of the Losties (most likely Jack and Kate, after recently reading that Javi once gave a cryptic response where he indicated that Adam & Eve could very well be Jack and Kate... But again, that lends heavilly on the time loop theory, and I'm just not sold on that yet. Too many inconsitencies. If this is the first time it's looped, then Adam and Eve wouldn't have been there. If it's not the first time, shouldn't there be 2 of every person. At least. 2 Danielle's, 2 Juliet's etc...)


No, you've got to think of the time loop like groundhog day except with people repeating their whole lives not just one day and generally having no real memory of previous loops. I think the explosion blew desmond out of the loop and back to a former bit of his life and because of this he retained flashed of his memory.
100%
consarnit! i dislike you. vincent!

:confused:

Its just a small piece of the puzzle. Its not dumb not to understand that writers use elements from other TTravel stories. This is very common in Sci-fi. Star Trek terms and happenings are the most commonly used.

It is quite puzzling, however, to reject something so blatently clear as desmond going back in time just because you dont want it to be so. All I can saw is a lot of crow is going to be eaten here..because this isnt a theory. It was right on the screen as plain as day.

LoL, I'm not rejecting anything. I never said he didn't time travel. But it definitely is NOT blatantly clear that he did. If you think the writer's wanted this to be blatantly clear that he time traveled, then WHY would they have him go unconscious and get hit in the head. Because that certainly sets the situation up to argue that he was just imagining what we saw. They made his concussions quite clear. They left time travel and imagination rather vague. We are to believe what we wish.

[QUOTE=Dark Angel;1380898]No, you've got to think of the time loop like groundhog day except with people repeating their whole lives not just one day and generally having no real memory of previous loops. I think the explosion blew desmond out of the loop and back to a former bit of his life and because of this he retained flashed of his memory.
100%/QUOTE]
Wait, let me see if I can get my head around it. Are you saying: there's a time loop happening on the island, and for everybody on it? So everybody on the island is simply re-living their life (without memory of having lived it) but the reason Desmond can see these "Flashes" is because when he turned the key, he was knocked out of THIS time loop (or iteration or whatever people have been calling it) and since he came back, he's still getting glimpses of the other time loops (or iterations)?

So as the Old Lady says about the universe "course correcting", no matter what happens to any character during any time loop (iteration); eventually their "destiny" will lead them to the island and what ever fate awaits them?

But in this case he even actually sees the future After !! and is naked!! and asks to go back!! It seems people just dont want to accept it

What makes it very difficult to accept that Desmond actually went back for a second chance is Ms. Hawking. It is very weird and surreal and very Smokey-like (Yemi and Christian's on-island appearences, for example) that she knows it all about him and everything around him and the future.

The other aspect is: if the Failsafe and the implosion sent him to the past for his second chance, how being hit by a bat could have got him back to the present?

I really, really wanted him to have returned and relived the WHOLE period until the failsafe key. But his "return" was interrupted by a bat? How ridiculous is that? Waking up after being hit in his vision is a huge clue that it was all in his mind (lucid dream, if you will).

Nice debate, by the way. :D

So as the Old Lady says about the universe "course correcting", no matter what happens to any character during any time loop (iteration); eventually their "destiny" will lead them to the island and what ever fate awaits them?

Yeah sort of, I think the show is about redemption, all the characters have been given the opportunity to relive their lives over and over until they get it right. It's all kind of Buddhist (which fits in with the show) . Some characters might find redemption very quickly whilst others may never get there just making the same mistakes over and over again

So as the Old Lady says about the universe "course correcting", no matter what happens to any character during any time loop (iteration); eventually their "destiny" will lead them to the island and what ever fate awaits them?

This is something interesting...if the losties destinies lie 'on the island', does it mean they'll never leave? When put like this, it sounds like the island is the end of the road.

What makes it very difficult to accept that Desmond actually went back for a second chance is Ms. Hawking. It is very weird and surreal and very Smokey-like (Yemi and Christian's on-island appearences, for example) that she knows it all about him and everything around him and the future.

The other aspect is: if the Failsafe and the implosion sent him to the past for his second chance, how being hit by a bat could have got him back to the present?

I really, really wanted him to have returned and relived the WHOLE period until the failsafe key. But his "return" was interrupted by a bat? How ridiculous is that? Waking up after being hit in his vision is a huge clue that it was all in his mind (lucid dream, if you will).

Nice debate, by the way. :D


I think Desmond was only thrown back into his past momentarily, maybe his concious thought held him there and when it was broken (by the Cricket Bat) that he snapped back to the correct time.

I think with Mrs Hawkins we don't know enough to figure out who she is yet.

Yeah sort of, I think the show is about redemption, all the characters have been given the opportunity to relive their lives over and over until they get it right. It's all kind of Buddhist (which fits in with the show) . Some characters might find redemption very quickly whilst others may never get there just making the same mistakes over and over again
So just running along with this time loop theory and throwing a few things out there (which may make it seem like I'm not following you at all, but you know :biggrin: )

If they are re-living their lives (flashbacks) and have the opportunity to redeem themselves, what happens if they do? Aren't they "destined" to end up on the island anyway, as the lady said, the universe will find a way of putting them on the island (correcting them if they change their path). So if Kate, for example, didnt blow up her dad and wasn't on the run (and thus not on the plane), somehow she would end up on the island, no? Does the fact that she has now re-deemed herself in her past life (that she has re-lived and changed/redeemed) change anything.

:confused: :confused: :confused:

And another thing, with the time loop, does every LOOP (or iteration) over-lap one another. For example, will Dharma see the hatches they already built when they arrive to the island (if the time loop goes back to before Dharma arrived)? I think that complicates matters (to me anyways). Using Danielle as an example, she arrives once, and if the Time Loop over-laps, then shouldn't she see herself when she arrives again?

Sorry mate. I suppose this is the reason why I'm struggling to believe in the time loop theory. It's just not clicking. But right now, I think that's the point. It'll all come clearer in the future.

Nice discussion though.

I think Desmond did time travel - witness the first scenes of his "flashback" when he clearly was puzzled as to why he was back with Penny. That's why he touched her face and said " you're here" or something like that. He actually looked rather astonished; it was also clear to me that although Desmond was in his past, he had the consciousness of future Desmond, like he knew that he was reliving things over again. Just the looks on his face.......great acting by HIC. This time travel was imperfect, however, as he lost some of his memories -he knew he knew Charlie, but he couldn't remember where. He also mistook the date on which the soccer team made their miraculous comeback...........nonetheless, I think he did go back in time.

The original post still confuses me,though - as do most posts regarding the time travel/time loop issue...I feel like a bit of a dummy, having to reread posts over and over again to be sure I'm understanding things. Nonetheless, I am enjoying this Lost puzzle ; not many shows make you think anymore.

OK,

I'll try to explain.

The survivors are reliving their whole lives over and over again, they are born, live for the span of their lives and then start again back at the beginning. There is no duplication of bodies etc as they are reliving their lives again - nothing physical travels back in time - just their minds/souls etc. - like Groundhog day - except they don't remember. Its an eternal cycle of death and rebirth - this was what the Ouboros (the broach Mrs Hawkins was wearing) symbolizes. Being reborn they don't rememer the last loop but each time round things start to get more familiar so they might get flashed of inspiration, things seem familiar and this enables them to avoid making the same mistakes. It seems however Desmond was blown back ito a previous part of his life by the hatch explosion and as such can remember flashes from his previous lives.

Just to make it clear the flashbacks we have seen (excluding Desmond in FBYE) are just that, memories of what happened years earlier

So what happens when they are finally redeemed - well that probably depends on your own religious beliefs ;)

OK,

I'll try to explain.

The survivors are reliving their whole lives over and over again, they are born, live for the span of their lives and then start again back at the beginning. There is no duplication of bodies etc as they are reliving their lives again - nothing physical travels back in time - just their minds/souls etc. - like Groundhog day - except they don't remember. Its an eternal cycle of death and rebirth - this was what the Ouboros (the broach Mrs Hawkins was wearing) symbolizes. Being reborn they don't rememer the last loop but each time round things start to get more familiar so they might get flashed of inspiration, things seem familiar and this enables them to avoid making the same mistakes. It seems however Desmond was blown back ito a previous part of his life by the hatch explosion and as such can remember flashes from his previous lives.

Just to make it clear the flashbacks we have seen (excluding Desmond in FBYE) are just that, memories of what happened years earlier

So what happens when they are finally redeemed - well that probably depends on your own religious beliefs ;)
I think I'm finally starting to follow you now! :cool:

And if I'm not mistaken, what you just said is very similar to what Stephen Hawkings talks about in A Brief History of Time (from what I read from another poster in another thread, I wouldn't actually know).

With the Lost Time anagram, Stephen Hawkings book showing up, and the backwards message on that trippy mind-control movie that says "only fools are enslaved by time and space" from last eppy; and the whole time-travel issue with Desmond this eppy and the lady being name Ms Hawking ... Well, don't mistake co-incidence for fate, eh?

Quickly scanning these posts there are 3 theories:
1). Time travel
2). Time loop
3). Dream
The dream theory is the weakest of all for a number of reasons. It doesn't serve to answers any questions - and the writers want to give us answers, rather than draw this out any more. That has been stated in previous posts. If it was a dream - what events were historical fact and what were influenced by what he experienced on the island? Meeting with Widmore? The ring lady? The bar scenes? The discussion with Donovan about time travel? Accosting Charlie? The references to the island throughout (picture in Widmore's office, microwave sound, etc.)? Isn't it a stretch to think that Desmond merely dreamt all this while coincidentally (but unknown to him at the time) interacting with the very person who may be involved with the Island (Widmore and the Hanso Foundation)? Doesn't make sense.

I think I'm finally starting to follow you now! :cool:

Brilliant, I've got to do a podcast on this later :biggrin:



And if I'm not mistaken, what you just said is very similar to what Stephen Hawkings talks about in A Brief History of Time (from what I read from another poster in another thread, I wouldn't actually know).

With the Lost Time anagram, Stephen Hawkings book showing up, and the backwards message on that trippy mind-control movie that says "only fools are enslaved by time and space" from last eppy; and the whole time-travel issue with Desmond this eppy and the lady being name Ms Hawking ... Well, don't mistake co-incidence for fate, eh?

Exactly :)

Attempting to describe a "time" theory as my first post may not be the smartest idea, but I wanted to get some feedback. Something similar may have been posted previously, but this was my initial reaction after giving the episode a little thought.

Isn't it a possibility that when the hatch imploded, it didn't actually loop time like many have suggested. Instead, Des' timeline "folded in" on itself. It could be thought of as Des' life drawn as a line on a piece of paper, then the paper is folded accordian style so that the line actually becomes one point. ( I think something similar is described in Hawking's book when discussing time in regard to balck holes, but I may be mistaken).

Therefore, all points during the past, the present and future, became the same point in time when the failsafe key to the electromagent was turned. Time could have been "bent" as a result of whatever happened once the key was turned. So, if that is the case, he didn't necessarily travel in time, he just has a limited awareness (the flashes) of his entire life, which he would possess during the course of his life. That would make it possible that Des has had the ability to see flashes since the beginning of his life. However, I think his ability to "remember the future" is related to his fall off the ladder. The concussion may have jarred his memory, and then after getting popped in the head with the stick, he may have then lost his ability to "remember the future." This means the stretch of time that we were shown, was the only time in Des' life that he was able to see the flashes, until the implosion of the hatch.

Then its possible that the scene at the end of season 2 with Pene and the two men looking for the island is based on the particular stretch of time in Des' life when he was having the flashes and was able to tell his friend the physicist about the boat race and the island. We could assume that once Des disappeared, the friend told Penne Des' story.

As for the "ring lady", she is a total enigma for me at this point.

Attempting to describe a "time" theory as my first post may not be the smartest idea, but I wanted to get some feedback. .

No I think it's a great theory, it reminds me of Billy Pilgrim in Slaughter House 5, or a book I read by Fred Hoyle (who was an eminent physicist and novelist).

I think however you might have difficulty explaining it to those without a physics background, you analogy was good though

Oh and WELCOME TO THE FUSELAGE :biggrin:

Thanks. That was the only way I could come up with that would allow for Desmond to have flashes of the future, which as far as we know, he has never lived.

Therefore, all points during the past, the present and future, became the same point in time when the failsafe key to the electromagent was turned. Time could have been "bent" as a result of whatever happened once the key was turned. So, if that is the case, he didn't necessarily travel in time, he just has a limited awareness (the flashes) of his entire life, which he would possess during the course of his life. That would make it possible that Des has had the ability to see flashes since the beginning of his life.

Exactly!!! But... read about David Hume's Theories think of the implications of that sort of foresight! Could that foresight be used to split time off from itself? To make it diverge from the original outcome? I try to explain it here: http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showpost.php?p=1381160&postcount=32. I say to forget the "Time Loop Theory", but that doesn't mean I don't see some great things about it (especially those mentioned in this thread).

Attempting to describe a "time" theory as my first post may not be the smartest idea, but I wanted to get some feedback. Something similar may have been posted previously, but this was my initial reaction after giving the episode a little thought.

Isn't it a possibility that when the hatch imploded, it didn't actually loop time like many have suggested. Instead, Des' timeline "folded in" on itself. It could be thought of as Des' life drawn as a line on a piece of paper, then the paper is folded accordian style so that the line actually becomes one point. ( I think something similar is described in Hawking's book when discussing time in regard to balck holes, but I may be mistaken).

Therefore, all points during the past, the present and future, became the same point in time when the failsafe key to the electromagent was turned. Time could have been "bent" as a result of whatever happened once the key was turned. So, if that is the case, he didn't necessarily travel in time, he just has a limited awareness (the flashes) of his entire life, which he would possess during the course of his life. That would make it possible that Des has had the ability to see flashes since the beginning of his life. However, I think his ability to "remember the future" is related to his fall off the ladder. The concussion may have jarred his memory, and then after getting popped in the head with the stick, he may have then lost his ability to "remember the future." This means the stretch of time that we were shown, was the only time in Des' life that he was able to see the flashes, until the implosion of the hatch.

Then its possible that the scene at the end of season 2 with Pene and the two men looking for the island is based on the particular stretch of time in Des' life when he was having the flashes and was able to tell his friend the physicist about the boat race and the island. We could assume that once Des disappeared, the friend told Penne Des' story.

As for the "ring lady", she is a total enigma for me at this point.
:blowup:

Never mind the emoticon, excellent first post!

And while I haven't read Hawkings book, what I have read from other posters who have, your theory works very nicely.

As for the "ring lady", she is a total enigma for me at this point.

What if she's doing/done the same thing as Desmond? What if she actually knows how to control it?

Quickly scanning these posts there are 3 theories:
1). Time travel
2). Time loop
3). Dream
The dream theory is the weakest of all for a number of reasons. It doesn't serve to answers any questions - and the writers want to give us answers, rather than draw this out any more. That has been stated in previous posts. If it was a dream - what events were historical fact and what were influenced by what he experienced on the island? Meeting with Widmore? The ring lady? The bar scenes? The discussion with Donovan about time travel? Accosting Charlie? The references to the island throughout (picture in Widmore's office, microwave sound, etc.)? Isn't it a stretch to think that Desmond merely dreamt all this while coincidentally (but unknown to him at the time) interacting with the very person who may be involved with the Island (Widmore and the Hanso Foundation)? Doesn't make sense.

The time travel explanation is the weakest because it just doesn't work that way. If time travel were possible and you went back... you'd be there. There's no rewind button where you live it over again that makes no sense. His mind got transported to an earlier point in his life? They've had some doozies on this show but that's beyond farfetched. You can be induced to recreate a past memory IN YOUR MIND. This nonsense about your mind getting thrown back is so far off course. It just doesn't make sense and it would be a lofty idea on the writer's part's.

I think there are two possibilities.

1) He DID time travel. If that's the case, then I think the "failsafe" works as a sort of "do-over" that sends the user back in time to try and alter the events that led up to its being used. But the Island/Fate intervened and sent him back because what he was doing was so important.

2) If he DIDN'T time travel, then I don't think it was a dream. I think it was a vision from the Island. And I think the whole point was to convince him that he couldn't use his ability to see the future to change it. How? By taking him back to the one thing he most desperately wishes he could change and making him unable to change it. And the only reason I can think of why the Island would want him to think that is if he CAN change things, but the Island doesn't want him to.

The time travel explanation is the weakest because it just doesn't work that way. If time travel were possible and you went back... you'd be there. There's no rewind button where you live it over again that makes no sense. His mind got transported to an earlier point in his life? They've had some doozies on this show but that's beyond farfetched. You can be induced to recreate a past memory IN YOUR MIND. This nonsense about your mind getting thrown back is so far off course. It just doesn't make sense and it would be a lofty idea on the writer's part's.

i'm not intending to be rude, but where did the "rules" for time travel originate? is there canon when it comes to time travel? i understand that other books, movies, comics, etc. have leaned on a few accepted rules...but, maybe LOST is redefining the boundaries of it. that's what it's all about, right? encouraging outside-the-box thinking? creating truly orignial television? and, consequently, blow our minds?

it's just that, because time travel, IMO, is far-fetched, i find it silly to quickly dismiss someone else's theories becuase they don't fit into the accepted definition.

“Woman was the Island, Flashbacks are memories, Desmond did Time Travel”
That starts with the assumption that this was a flashback not a dream or alcoholic hallucination. It also assumes memories are accurate not subjective in order to conclude time travel happened.
1. If flashbacks are memories why would Desmond remember the island as a woman? In a dream that makes sense but as a memory shouldn‘t an island have been remembered as an island?
2. If Desmond did time travel then the woman he met at the jewelry store would have been in the past and should not have had memories of the future or do we say she is also a time traveler? Do we say she has the power to view the future? If she is the island inserting her view of events into his mind, then wouldn't that blow the time travel theory and make this a mind manipulation episode?

Did the PTB have Desmond time travel and set up an alternate past only to have the flow of time remerge his alterative into the mainstream? Wouldn’t that mean they are saying you can change the past but not the future? Umm isn’t that the opposite of what we see in reality and in most scientific theories? Butchering Chaos theory here but If a butterfly flaps its wings you eventually get a storm in the future in a distant location - Are we now seeing a theory that if you time travel to the past and swat the butterfly before it can flap, you still get the storm. So the past has no meaning?

I don’t see time travel. Instead I see: stressed out Desmond gets drunk and escapes into a dream about what might have been only to have the dream turn into a nightmare where he wakes up still in the same stressful situation.


Do any of the threads on this come up with a theory that Desmond somehow connected with another version of himself in an alternate universe where events followed another pattern?

Attempting to describe a "time" theory as my first post may not be the smartest idea, but I wanted to get some feedback. Something similar may have been posted previously, but this was my initial reaction after giving the episode a little thought.

Isn't it a possibility that when the hatch imploded, it didn't actually loop time like many have suggested. Instead, Des' timeline "folded in" on itself. It could be thought of as Des' life drawn as a line on a piece of paper, then the paper is folded accordian style so that the line actually becomes one point. ( I think something similar is described in Hawking's book when discussing time in regard to balck holes, but I may be mistaken).

Therefore, all points during the past, the present and future, became the same point in time when the failsafe key to the electromagent was turned. Time could have been "bent" as a result of whatever happened once the key was turned. So, if that is the case, he didn't necessarily travel in time, he just has a limited awareness (the flashes) of his entire life, which he would possess during the course of his life. That would make it possible that Des has had the ability to see flashes since the beginning of his life. However, I think his ability to "remember the future" is related to his fall off the ladder. The concussion may have jarred his memory, and then after getting popped in the head with the stick, he may have then lost his ability to "remember the future." This means the stretch of time that we were shown, was the only time in Des' life that he was able to see the flashes, until the implosion of the hatch.

Then its possible that the scene at the end of season 2 with Pene and the two men looking for the island is based on the particular stretch of time in Des' life when he was having the flashes and was able to tell his friend the physicist about the boat race and the island. We could assume that once Des disappeared, the friend told Penne Des' story.

As for the "ring lady", she is a total enigma for me at this point.
Good first post, Atticus. While I'm not on the time travel bandwagon, IMO, your ideas are much more likely than any of the crazy time-loop ideas being put forward. Personally, I think the ring lady was a manifestation of the Island/Smokey (think Eko/Yemi, Kate/horse, Jack/Jack's dad, Locke's visions) and may indicate that he didn't physically travel. Either way, she is certainly an enigma!
100%
i'm not intending to be rude, but where did the "rules" for time travel originate? is there canon when it comes to time travel? i understand that other books, movies, comics, etc. have leaned on a few accepted rules...but, maybe LOST is redefining the boundaries of it. that's what it's all about, right? encouraging outside-the-box thinking? creating truly orignial television? and, consequently, blow our minds?

it's just that, because time travel, IMO, is far-fetched, i find it silly to quickly dismiss someone else's theories becuase they don't fit into the accepted definition.
If--and this is admittedly a HUGE "if" at this point--but if we take the producers/creators' statements that the show was not going to be science fiction but would be based around "science or pseudo-science" (they also said at one point they they weren't going to do time travel, but who knows if they've changed their minds, it's certainly their prerogative) than I would tend to think they wouldn't go the time-travel route. If they are indeed looking to at least pay attention to plausible science, then the "rules" (ie, physics, Einstein's relativity) say that time travel to the future is theoretically possible (as one approaches the speed of light, time slows relative to someone remaining stationary--see the "twin paradox) but going back in time is scientifically impossible. Of course, it seems like the story is already playing loose with science (it looks like there is certainly some kind of time anomaly/dilation/distortion at some point), but time travel to the past would be a pretty blatant violation of physics, and I don't know that they would go to that extent. But who knows anymore!

I wonder if maybe this wasn't more of a "glimpse" than anything else.. sort of like "The Family Man". Desmond seemed, to me anyway, to be surprised at waking up in his flat, he said it straight out, "This is my flat!" Maybe Desmond was given the chance to "re-play" the game of his life starting from the red paint spill... and so he tried other things like asking Widmore's permission to marry Pen at the job interview. Because somehow I just don't think he would have done that the first time.

John - I think you're right. The writer's made it pretty clear that Desmond did go back in time. I think the implicaitons of this episode are huge, and a lot of people are trying to explain away these implications with the dream theory.

This is just like thinking that Alex is Ben's biological daughter. She obviously was just raised by him, but people want to believe otherwise, because... I don't know

G33K3Z01D - I agree that only his consciousness going back in time is a very improbable way of time-traveling, which itself is implausible.. but I think my suspension of disbelief can compensate

Atticus - I like your idea - Desmonds' time travel to the past does not explain his prescience about the future; having him experience existence at all times simultaneously reconciles the two.

but if we take the producers/creators' statements that the show was not going to be science fiction but would be based around "science or pseudo-science" Science fiction is fiction based on science or pseudo-science. Hard sci-fi often uses good science and soft sci-fi often uses pseudo-science. So the statement that the show will not be science fiction but will instead be fiction based on science or pseudo-science doesn't make sense to me.

The writer's made it pretty clear that Desmond did go back in time.Well that explains why so many people support the dream theory, they just can't see clearly. LOL I wear glasses so I can see clearly and I support the dream theory. I also feel the time theorists are the ones who don't clearly see the writer's obvious intent.;)

LoL, I'm not rejecting anything. I never said he didn't time travel. But it definitely is NOT blatantly clear that he did. If you think the writer's wanted this to be blatantly clear that he time traveled, then WHY would they have him go unconscious and get hit in the head. Because that certainly sets the situation up to argue that he was just imagining what we saw. They made his concussions quite clear. They left time travel and imagination rather vague. We are to believe what we wish.

Hey Kevn

You didnt read my post. I explained that

" Like good writers do they plant doubt that this concusion may be a dream of a concusion(the paint cans)--they also cast doubt with the failed prediction in the bar and desmond theorizing he is talking to his concious"

I dont know how many movies you have seen but someone getting a bang on the head and then questioning whether its a dream or real has been done about 200 times in the last 70 years. Its a writing device to make you wonder WHILE your watching. Did you keep watching till the end? Because like almost all such devices..they answered it in the end.

Hey Kevn

You didnt read my post. I explained that

" Like good writers do they plant doubt that this concusion may be a dream of a concusion(the paint cans)--they also cast doubt with the failed prediction in the bar and desmond theorizing he is talking to his concious"

I dont know how many movies you have seen but someone getting a bang on the head and then questioning whether its a dream or real has been done about 200 times in the last 70 years. Its a writing device to make you wonder WHILE your watching. Did you keep watching till the end? Because like almost all such devices..they answered it in the end.



Sorry I just would love to meet the cricket bat that doubles as a time machine. Please knock me in the head with it so I may wake up in another time.

We saw nothing that transported Desmond from one time to another. What we were shown was something that flipped his consciousness. I therefore cannot reject the explanation of it being Desmond's imagination.

Sorry I just would love to meet the cricket bat that doubles as a time machine. Please knock me in the head with it so I may wake up in another time.

We saw nothing that transported Desmond from one time to another. What we were shown was something that flipped his consciousness. I therefore cannot reject the explanation of it being Desmond's imagination.

The "flashes" occur in his mind. If his brain is really what controls the "time travel" then it makes sense that a concussion would end the journey and "reset" him back to the island.

His mind is the time machine, not the cricket bat.

Science fiction is fiction based on science or pseudo-science. Hard sci-fi often uses good science and soft sci-fi often uses pseudo-science. So the statement that the show will not be science fiction but will instead be fiction based on science or pseudo-science doesn't make sense to me.
Yeah, I guess that sounds pretty ridiculous, LOL! :redface: I guess I stated that pretty poorly, allow me a second attempt? I should search and find the quote... but it was to the effect that the story would be explainable within the bounds of science and/or pseudo-science, that it wouldn't violate known science. Now of course, we already know that there are things that--at least so far, without the final chapters of the story being revealed--certainly do not appear to be backed up by sound science. But with time travel to the past being a clear violation of physics, I'm inclined to think they wouldn't go there--even if not real science, it would be difficult to pass off as pseudo-science because of that.

but it was to the effect that the story would be explainable within the bounds of science and/or pseudo-science, that it wouldn't violate known science.

Pseudo-science does violate known science... if it didn't then it's just be "science" and not "pseudo", right?

TPTB have since gone on the record and stated that "Lost" is science fiction, and that they were trying to hide that at first. But, a mind-reading monster comprised of smoke, a Scotsman who repeatedly sees the future and a teleporting Walt kind of throw all that out the window. There's no way to explain all of this without veering into pretty Heavy sci-fi, it's just a matter of When they choose to lift the veil.

The "flashes" occur in his mind. If his brain is really what controls the "time travel" then it makes sense that a concussion would end the journey and "reset" him back to the island.
I realize I'm seeking speculation here, but if Desmond had lived through it all before, and Ms Hawking was indeed real... why do you guys think he would stay in the hatch pushing the button for three long years, knowing he's going to "blow the dam" in the end? If he's done it before, he knows it's inevitable, and Ms Hawking told him it was his destiny to turn the key. Why put himself through those years of isolation and torture, instead of accomplishing the task more immediately?

Actually, this would open up other questions too... when he killed Kelvin, we saw that it was an accident. If he's repeating the loop, would he kill him again? Would he continue to be duped by Kelvin about the quarantine every time through? (I hope I don't read like I'm being argumentative, just intrigued by the possibilities and enjoying the debate.)

I realize I'm seeking speculation here, but if Desmond had lived through it all before, and Ms Hawking was indeed real... why do you guys think he would stay in the hatch pushing the button for three long years, knowing he's going to "blow the dam" in the end? If he's done it before, he knows it's inevitable, and Ms Hawking told him it was his destiny to turn the key. Why put himself through those years of isolation and torture, instead of accomplishing the task more immediately?

Actually, this would open up other questions too... when he killed Kelvin, we saw that it was an accident. If he's repeating the loop, would he kill him again? Would he continue to be duped by Kelvin about the quarantine every time through? (I hope I don't read like I'm being argumentative, just intrigued by the possibilities and enjoying the debate.)

This was inevitable I guess.
I noticed in one of your other posts that you were "anti-time loop" and I figured that you'd think I was in favor of it...
I don't think there is a time loop that's going on. I think that Des had an incident where he saw backwards in time, and then after he got hit with the bat, came back to the island and now has "flashes" of the future. That's it. I don't think that he's living a "loop" over and over again (and in fact, your points are very good and I shall bring them up in the other threads where I am discussing why there can be no "loop".)

So, I think that if he had a loop, it was when the Hatch blew, and he's out of it now.

This was inevitable I guess.
I noticed in one of your other posts that you were "anti-time loop" and I figured that you'd think I was in favor of it...
I don't think there is a time loop that's going on. I think that Des had an incident where he saw backwards in time, and then after he got hit with the bat, came back to the island and now has "flashes" of the future. That's it. I don't think that he's living a "loop" over and over again (and in fact, your points are very good and I shall bring them up in the other threads where I am discussing why there can be no "loop".)

So, I think that if he had a loop, it was when the Hatch blew, and he's out of it now.
You are correct, I misunderstood your position--thanks for clarifying that. I can stomach your idea much easier than the repeating loops. Though I'm still leaning heavily the other way due to the surreal elements (and the Wizard of Oz parallels--specifically Dorothy getting knocked on the head, and waking up to find it was just a fantasy) in the flashback/time-travel, but I could see them going in the direction you describe. And they have certainly made enough references to the time issue for a Desmond trip to the past to be a feasible plotline.
100%
Pseudo-science does violate known science... if it didn't then it's just be "science" and not "pseudo", right?

TPTB have since gone on the record and stated that "Lost" is science fiction, and that they were trying to hide that at first. But, a mind-reading monster comprised of smoke, a Scotsman who repeatedly sees the future and a teleporting Walt kind of throw all that out the window. There's no way to explain all of this without veering into pretty Heavy sci-fi, it's just a matter of When they choose to lift the veil.
I should probably just shut about about the 'based on science' comments by now... ;) I'll probably just dig my hole deeper, but I would have put time travel to the past into the anti-science category, not pseudo-science, viewing things through the lens of the show being science/pseudo-science based.

I wasn't at all aware that TPTB had made opened the scifi door, I completely missed or overlooked that. Mind you, I'm not at all anti-scifi, but I was operating under the prior assumption. And being an accountant, I tend to be a wee bit on the analytical side, it's in my nature...

...but I would have put time travel to the past into the anti-science category, not pseudo-science, viewing things through the lens of the show being science/pseudo-science based.


Basically, none of these "rules" are set in stone... so, is telepathy "pseudo-science" or "science fiction"? Telekinesis? Time travel? Aliens? It's just too hard to judge. I guess all that matters is they are going to use some elements that don't exist in "science" as we know it today. How far "over the line" something is is purely in the eye of the beholder. Me, I'm like you... moving back and forth in time in your mind is fine... time Machine? No.

So, in the end we'll just have to wait and see where TPTB put the line and see how many people it turns away.

Basically, none of these "rules" are set in stone... so, is telepathy "pseudo-science" or "science fiction"? Telekinesis? Time travel? Aliens? It's just too hard to judge. I guess all that matters is they are going to use some elements that don't exist in "science" as we know it today. How far "over the line" something is is purely in the eye of the beholder. Me, I'm like you... moving back and forth in time in your mind is fine... time Machine? No.

So, in the end we'll just have to wait and see where TPTB put the line and see how many people it turns away.
Either way, I think TPTB and the writers are brilliant in how they leave these things so wide open, leaving easter eggs that point to several possibilities. As frustrating as it can be to not get the "answers", they have been remarkably good at generating controversy like this... it's good to see that three years in they still have the ability to do this and to keep the story fresh. This is the kind of stuff that sucked me into Lost, and I love it.

Funny thing... my younger brother got me started on Lost. I tend to think too much TV is a bad thing, and for a few years post-college didn't even own one. I only watch a few shows regularly...currently Lost, 24, The Office. Still mourning the hastened departure of Arrested Development... So I'm not one to jump on the bandwagon with a new show, and wasn't going to get roped into Lost. The first episode I actually saw was Exodus! So then I was in and following Season 2 until the S1 DVDs let me catch up. I'm still kicking myself because I wasn't able to watch the mysteries unfold from the beginning, and knew some of the stories and twists before seeing the foundation laid for them. I think the Lost pilot might be some of the most compelling, revolutionary television I've ever seen, and I didn't get the chance to experience it until I had already seen them hanging out in the hatch!

And now that I'm hooked, my brother has fallen off the bandwagon (this is the same kid who proudly brags that he hasn't read a book since graduating college, so... the complex storylines wore him down and the long fall hiatus did him in, apparently.) I think it's an absolute travesty that he's lost interest, but if he wouldn't have badgered me into watching it, I'd still be missing out.

I am with this theory. The Old Woman is definitely The Island(or Smokey) :scared:

We don't know for sure what happened.

However, at this point, which is more likely?

A) Desmond gets knocked unconscious and has a long dream, which explains how the woman knows so much about him and the island (because it's really him just thinking about it), and seeing Charlie and knowing about him (because he knows him from the island), and hearing 4,8,15 and remembering them (because he remembers from the island), and general feelings of remembering stuff that have happened before in his normal life, because he is just reliving it in his head.

Or

B) He travels back in time. The claim that it must be time travel because he is naked is flawed because he is not naked when he goes 'back in time'. He wakes up wearing whatever he was wearing at the time.

Certainly, Desmond believes he has travelled in time. I think the notion of time travel is pretty far-fetched, and it just doesn't seem like the kind of thing the writers would do, from what they've said about the show before. Seems too cheesy. There's so many holes in any time travel idea (if you really do 'travel back in time', then you wouldn't have the memories of the future, because at the time in the 'past' you would only have your past memories ETC).

I wouldn't say for sure though, like I said, we don't really know one way or the other. It just seems more likely to me that Des just had this strange dream experience.

There are still more questions; how did he survive the implosion? How did he get his power of premonition? It could be argued that if he travelled in time, it would explain how he survived the implosion. But Eko and John and Charlie all survived it too, did the all travel in time? It seems like they didn't, so it seems that you can survive an implosion without time travelling. And time travel doesn't explain how he got his powers particularly well. I think future answers will be necessary to untangle all this, there's still key pieces of info missing to us.

I think it's possible that somebody or some thing was talking to him in his dream state, 'the island' or 'smokey' or whatever, who knows, giving him suggestion. He as given the power to see the future in smal ways, I imagine it was triggered some how by some one.

Long thread, read it to the fourth page...

There's one thing speaking against time travel: CHARLIE.

In REAL time (before they all went to the island, not in Desmonds dream/time travel) everything we saw in Desmonds dream happened, we all can agree on that, eh? So he fell down a ladder, went to mr. Widmore, went to buy a ring but changed his mind, saw Charlie playing on the street but didn't recognize him then (probably also not even thinking about him, maybe putting a dollar in his guitar case), taking the pic with Penny, going to the bar, going to race around the world, ending up on the island and so on.

Now, if he would have gone back in time when the hatch imploded, he would have changed a lot of these things. He spoke to mrs. Hawkings (after WANTING to buy the ring), he made a fool of himself at the bar (the first time), but most important of all, HE SPOKE TO CHARLIE ABOUT THE ISLAND!

Logically, if you go back in time and change stuff, the future is changed, in this case that would mean that Charlie would have a memory of Desmond, buried deep inside his mind. It doesn't pop up when the plane crashes on the Island, but IT REALLY SHOULD RING A BELL when he is down in the hatch with Desmond, the hatch exploding, having to press a button, SEEING DESMOND. Charlie really should remember all this. Some people on this board say that it's the heroin. Nah, I don't think so.

Well, of course if Desmond altered the future WHEN he traveled, Charlie wouldn't remember him BEFORE the hatch imploded, but instantly after Desmond spoke to him in his journey through time, Charlie should get a memory of Desmond.

If you are not convinced, let's look at when Jack met Desmond. That was small. Didn't mean anything. Jack was just running at the stadium, and met some other dude also running. Fairly normal, nothing big. Still, JACK REMEMBERED DESMOND WHEN HE SAW HIM! When Desmond said one of his "Brother" sentences, even that rang a bell for Jack!

So IF Desmond really went back in time, and spoke to Charlie, thus altering the future ("implanting" a memory in Charlies mind) Charlie should remember him on the beach in this weeks episode. I don't believe in the time travel, and there's lots of ways for the dream to answer questions without it being a travel back in time.

Long post, thanks for reading.

Logically, if you go back in time and change stuff, the future is changed, in this case that would mean that Charlie would have a memory of Desmond, buried deep inside his mind. It doesn't pop up when the plane crashes on the Island, but IT REALLY SHOULD RING A BELL when he is down in the hatch with Desmond, the hatch exploding, having to press a button, SEEING DESMOND. Charlie really should remember all this. Some people on this board say that it's the heroin. Nah, I don't think so.

good point!!!!

It seems to me that there is a strong temptation to apply rules of "time travel" and "time loops" a bit too rigidly. TPTB have given us strong evidence for the fluidity of the space/time continuum. There have been 2 major references to Stephen Hawking's work. It makes sense that the writers would plant alternative possibilities (dream, altered memories, crack to the melon) so that we could play at this, but the explanation that makes the most sense to me is that Desmond and Ms. Hawking has become more consciously mobile and in touch with the fluidity of time.

The "flashes" occur in his mind. If his brain is really what controls the "time travel" then it makes sense that a concussion would end the journey and "reset" him back to the island.


Want to know what makes more sense? replacing "time travel' with imagination.

Hey guys

We know that the flashbacks..the ones everyone get are just memories. Desmond was asked what happened and he had the flashback(just like all other characters do when thinking of something in their past that relates to the present situation)

Desmond thinks back to the hatch prior to the explosion--and after he turns the key--he is thrown back into time. This is not a flashback within a flashback. Like good writers do they plant doubt that this concusion may be a dream of a concusion(the paint cans)--they also cast doubt with the failed prediction in the bar and desmond theorizing he is talking to his concious

All this is proved wrong--very clearly people--by desmond having the day wrong in the bar, and most surely the in the way he tried to change the past in the bar--something that is directly paralled to his attemps to save Charlie--which are real events.

They didnt leave any doubt that desmond traveled to the past. He then returned--as he is rememering in his flashback when he finds the picture on the Island. Note also, that this memory was not interupted by going back to the Island, as to portray it as one stream of information.

He also experinced some significant flashes of the future as he expained/

I think it was also clear the woman was the Island entity that talks to the survivors.. She spoke in the same cryptic, creepy way Eko's brother did , (specifing the button should have been pushed, speaking destiny driven language).The monster entity produced flashes of life scenes as well.

So thats my take. I dont believe I unraveled anything. I think this was all very clearly portrayed for us to know by the writers. It seems they are aware of the frustration of viewers and are setting out to explain things. From some of the post I read..it seems people just dont take things at face value because of all the cons...but I think they are trying to spell this out for us. Remember the Hawkings book on Time too.

I have to agree with you, at the moment it's the only thing that makes sense and the old lady reminded me of Smokey in Yemi's form too. Great episode.

He travels back in time. The claim that it must be time travel because he is naked is flawed because he is not naked when he goes 'back in time'. He wakes up wearing whatever he was wearing at the time.
Excellent point, and one that hadn't even hit me!

Certainly, Desmond believes he has travelled in time.I'm in agreement with you that it wasn't time travel, but did want to point out that according to what he said, Desmond doesn't believe he time traveled, he told us:
When I turned that key...my life...flashed before my eyes. And then I was back in the jungle. Still on this bloody island. But those flashes, Charlie? Those flashes...they didn't stop.100%
It seems to me that there is a strong temptation to apply rules of "time travel" and "time loops" a bit too rigidly. TPTB have given us strong evidence for the fluidity of the space/time continuum. There have been 2 major references to Stephen Hawking's work. It makes sense that the writers would plant alternative possibilities (dream, altered memories, crack to the melon) so that we could play at this, but the explanation that makes the most sense to me is that Desmond and Ms. Hawking has become more consciously mobile and in touch with the fluidity of time.
I think they will definitely be going somewhere with all the time references... some kind of time dilation or with island time somehow behaving differently, which are all pointed to by the Hawking allusions. Somebody even posted the page of Hawking's book that Aldo was reading, it was about black holes and event horizons, I don't know that there is anything in there about time travel of the sort people are claiming Desmond did. Hawking would have a good laugh.

The thing is, in order to accept that Desmond traveled back in time, there there are just so many bizarre things we have to accept. How can Charlie not remember their meeting, as mentioned by a few posters on the last few pages? Certainly when he sees him in the hatch, he would recall that! Jack remembered Des, and they only ran into each other on the steps. In addition to that, based on the time frame they showed us, there's an age issue: Charlie was likely still in high school at the time of Desmond's flashback, it looked to me like they showed us the current-island Charlie. You've got Tom's painting in Widmore's office... the painting that Tom had in Claire's flashback when she was pregnant (2004), but Des has been on the island since 2001, since this island was pre-army and prison for Desmond, it took place a few years before that. You've got the blinking poster. The time not changing on Big Ben and the clocks in the jewelry store. And so on... I still believe they were telegraphing to us, "this isn't reality, people..."

And a clue that I feel they just about tried to hit us over the head with, the Wizard of Oz reference with the red shoes. What happened to Dorothy? Took a hit on the noggin and lived a whole fantasy episode in her head, then woke up in her own bed with the people she saw in her vision all around her. Desmond said it all, his life flashed before his eyes, and he woke up, still in the jungle...

To believe he time traveled, IMO, requires accepting that Desmond's time in London in the late 90's was more like some kind of twilight zone than reality...

Either way, I think TPTB and the writers are brilliant in how they leave these things so wide open, leaving easter eggs that point to several possibilities.
Exactly.
None of these hypotheses are "obviously" correct. That would only be the case if the writers had screwed up, and I don't think that is likely. They want us to think "OK, I understand now. Its ..." and then ten minutes later think "BUT WAIT A MINUTE! That can't be right!"

My take on it is this: none of the writers or producers have a science background, so you can forget the objection "that explanation can't be right: it's not scientific". They clearly are fans of scifi, however, so anything in the scifi world (including Doc Brown's Flux Capacitor) could potentially be involved.

Another interpretation of this week's episode is that, since the island can clearly make people see anything it wants to (e.g. Charlie's "Madonna on the Beach" vision, Locke's sweat lodge experience) then perhaps Desmond's experience was the island (personified by Mrs. Hawking) trying to convince him to "stay the course" and keep believing that he has an important job to do on the island.

His apparent ability to fortell the future might go like this:
1. island decides it needs to impress Desmond, so gives him a
vision that warns about an upcoming lightning strike killing Charlie
2. Des gets Charlie out of the way, and sets up lightning rod
3. Island create lightning bolt, right on cue
Similarly, the "undertow" that pulled Claire out to sea may also have been the island trying to fulfill the Charlie-drowning vision it has given to Desmond, since it knows that Charlie would dive right in, even though he is a sucky athlete.

BUT WAIT A MINUTE! ....

Want to know what makes more sense? replacing "time travel' with imagination.

So... would he be "imagining" see the future also? He used the same word "flash" to describe what he saw in the past, and what he sees in the future... so, first he started Imagining the past then legitimately seeing the future through the same type of "flashes"? Nah, since it's established that he Does catch glimpses of the future, I can't see anything to discount that he caught a longer glimpse of the past first.

I'm in agreement with you that it wasn't time travel, but did want to point out that according to what he said, Desmond doesn't believe he time traveled, he told us

Oh yes, you're quite right

Re-watching the show really helped and I do think that Desmond did go back in time........or at least his consciousness did. When he regained consciousness from his concussion, this was the future Desmond's mind inside the past Desmond's body. Otherwise, why would he have touched Penny's face and looked at her with wonder? IMO, it was because he's seeing her again after so many years...........yet, Desmond didn't understand why he felt this way. This is not time travel like in the movie Somewhere in Time, where Christopher Reeve's character physically and mentally travels back to 1912 while retaining memories of his past (yet future) life in the 1980's. Desmond doesn't retain his memories of his future (past?) life on the Island, only glimpses of it. In his first go round, he probably passed Charlie without a second look, but the part of his mind that does remember the Island recognizes Charlie now.

I do think Ms. Hawking is a manifestation of the island; the first go round, Desmond did not buy the ring, did break Penny's heart, did end up on the Island and pushing the button. The Island needs Desmond to end up there again so naturally this woman does not want to sell the ring to Desmond because if she does then he will be with Penny and everything will change. I wonder if the man who was crushed in the construction accident even died during Desmond's first go round; I suspect not. I suspect that this is the Island's way of convincing Desmond that his fate/destiny can not be altered. I wonder if Dharma built the island - there are man-made islands around the world- and somehow imbued it with this mystical power. That would explain why the Island seems to have a stake in all of these people getting to and remaining there.

It really creeped me out when Ms. Hawking said that "all of us are going to die".....if Desmond buys the ring and proposes to Penny. Like one big guilt trip.......and I'm not sure who US is, but I don't think she meant mankind in general, probably the creators of the Island (Dharma?).

It's been a while since my last post over here, but after the last episode, I felt I would like to share my ideas with you.

First of all, I don't think Desmond travelled back in time for a couple of reasons. First, TPTB has stated several times that the show won't include any time-space warping. This was one of the first theories debunked by the writers. Second, in most sci fi media, everytime somebody travels back in time, he is able to see himself as he was in the past. Where was the Desmond from that period of time? He didn't see himself running in the streets or at the pub. It was more like his conciousness from the future possesed his body from the past. And this kinda doesn't fit the usual idea of time traveling. And I believe TPTB did that for a reason. The whole episode was very ambiguous as to let us know if he did traveled back in time or not. They love doing that with us poor viewers! Don't they?

So if he didn't go back in time, what happened to him then? Ok. I think one of the answers might come from Ms Hawking's intentions. It seems she was very interested in Desmond going to the island and not marrying Penny. She also let us know the importance of pushing the button, once again. In other words, she wanted the button to get pushed. Now who else wanted that button pushed? The Others? No. Remember Ben wanted Locke to stop pushing the button? So who else wanted that button to get pushed? What about Yemi? Yemi wanted Ecko to keep pushing that button because that was very 'important'. Now it is widely accepted that Yemi was a Smokie's manifestation. right?

We know how vivid and powerful Smokie's hallucinations can be. So why not to believe the whole Desmond reliving his past was in fact a very strong and lucid hallucination-manifestation?

We also know that it can read people's memories, as he did with Ecko. So perhaps he read Desmond's memories at some point and based on those memories it build an alternate past for Desmond to live in for a while for some unknown purpose for now...
If you think about it, Smokie may have done the same thing to Ecko and even Locke. We know for a fact that it read Ecko's mind and it may have done exactly the same thng with Locke during their first encounter. So why not to think that during the Swan implosion all three of them went through very similar experiences? Ecko may have failed the relive-your-life 'test'. That's why he was killed.

Now the question is: Did Desmond pass? What does Smokie want Desmond to do? Apparently it gave Desmond 'flashes of the future', too. What for? So far all those flashes have involved saving one person: Charlie. But why would Smokie want Charlie alive? If you think about it, the first time Charlie was supposed to die was because of the lighting and the second time was for trying to save Claire, right? Well, think about what would happen to Aaron if Claire died? Remember the psychic? 'Don't let your child be raised by Another...' Besides the lighting was supposed to strike on Claire's tent, right? Perhaps Desmond got it all wrong and he was in fact indirectly saving Aaron...Or maybe in the future, Charlie is gonna sacrifice himself to save Aaron. That's why Smokie wanted him alive. Besides, didn't Charlie have visions about saving Aaron in Fire + Ice? I really believe that Smokie is very interested in Aaron.

Did anyone think that Mrs. H "changed her tune" in the store? She was nice and willing to help Des find an inexpesive ring. She went to the trouble to walk to another counter for the ring. When Des decides he likes it, she becomes a different person as if smokie took over. Who knows?

First of all, I don't think Desmond travelled back in time for a couple of reasons. First, TPTB has stated several times that the show won't include any time-space warping. This was one of the first theories debunked by the writers.

1. I don't recall where they said there wouldn't be any time/space warping... where was that? I remember them saying there was no time travel, but as you mentioned, "this kinda doesn't fit the usual idea of time traveling".

2. TPTB also said early on that "Lost" was not sci-fi but admitted later that it really was, but in disguise.

Now the question is: Did Desmond pass? What does Smokie want Desmond to do? Apparently it gave Desmond 'flashes of the future', too. What for? So far all those flashes have involved saving one person: Charlie. But why would Smokie want Charlie alive? If you think about it, the first time Charlie was supposed to die was because of the lighting and the second time was for trying to save Claire, right? Well, think about what would happen to Aaron if Claire died? Remember the psychic? 'Don't let your child be raised by Another...' Besides the lighting was supposed to strike on Claire's tent, right? Perhaps Desmond got it all wrong and he was in fact indirectly saving Aaron...Or maybe in the future, Charlie is gonna sacrifice himself to save Aaron. That's why Smokie wanted him alive. Besides, didn't Charlie have visions about saving Aaron in Fire + Ice? I really believe that Smokie is very interested in Aaron.

That's a very interesting theory. If Desmond really Didn't warp into the past, then I could definately see Smokey causing the hallucination for his/her/its own agenda.

It's been a while since my last post over here, but after the last episode, I felt I would like to share my ideas with you.

First of all, I don't think Desmond travelled back in time for a couple of reasons. First, TPTB has stated several times that the show won't include any time-space warping. This was one of the first theories debunked by the writers. Second, in most sci fi media, everytime somebody travels back in time, he is able to see himself as he was in the past. Where was the Desmond from that period of time? He didn't see himself running in the streets or at the pub. It was more like his conciousness from the future possesed his body from the past. And this kinda doesn't fit the usual idea of time traveling. And I believe TPTB did that for a reason. The whole episode was very ambiguous as to let us know if he did traveled back in time or not. They love doing that with us poor viewers! Don't they?

So if he didn't go back in time, what happened to him then? Ok. I think one of the answers might come from Ms Hawking's intentions. It seems she was very interested in Desmond going to the island and not marrying Penny. She also let us know the importance of pushing the button, once again. In other words, she wanted the button to get pushed. Now who else wanted that button pushed? The Others? No. Remember Ben wanted Locke to stop pushing the button? So who else wanted that button to get pushed? What about Yemi? Yemi wanted Ecko to keep pushing that button because that was very 'important'. Now it is widely accepted that Yemi was a Smokie's manifestation. right?

We know how vivid and powerful Smokie's hallucinations can be. So why not to believe the whole Desmond reliving his past was in fact a very strong and lucid hallucination-manifestation?

We also know that it can read people's memories, as he did with Ecko. So perhaps he read Desmond's memories at some point and based on those memories it build an alternate past for Desmond to live in for a while for some unknown purpose for now...
If you think about it, Smokie may have done the same thing to Ecko and even Locke. We know for a fact that it read Ecko's mind and it may have done exactly the same thng with Locke during their first encounter. So why not to think that during the Swan implosion all three of them went through very similar experiences? Ecko may have failed the relive-your-life 'test'. That's why he was killed.

Now the question is: Did Desmond pass? What does Smokie want Desmond to do? Apparently it gave Desmond 'flashes of the future', too. What for? So far all those flashes have involved saving one person: Charlie. But why would Smokie want Charlie alive? If you think about it, the first time Charlie was supposed to die was because of the lighting and the second time was for trying to save Claire, right? Well, think about what would happen to Aaron if Claire died? Remember the psychic? 'Don't let your child be raised by Another...' Besides the lighting was supposed to strike on Claire's tent, right? Perhaps Desmond got it all wrong and he was in fact indirectly saving Aaron...Or maybe in the future, Charlie is gonna sacrifice himself to save Aaron. That's why Smokie wanted him alive. Besides, didn't Charlie have visions about saving Aaron in Fire + Ice? I really believe that Smokie is very interested in Aaron.

This is the best analysis I've read! Great job! This is a great discussion by the way. It's nice to read a thread without people attacking the show with every other post and actually discussing the show. :)

I really don't think Charlie would have to recognize Desmond. I know that Jack and Desmond recognized each other, but I felt that that was supposed to be kind of remarkable, that that was the whole point.

Doesn't a rambling crazy person approach everyone once in a while (seriously)?? I don't think I could remember the face a single one, let alone the conversation.

Betsy - Spot on, that's exactly what I got out of it.

I don't think Thomas' painting is a good arguement for a Dream Theory, because, well, Desmond has nothing to do with Thomas. Why would the painting be in Desmond's memory? In response you could say "well, it's Lost, the characters are all interconnected..." but if you are going to make that argument, then it's just as likely that there's a Widmore-Thomas connection....

but did want to point out that according to what he said, Desmond doesn't believe he time traveled, he told us:..When I turned that key...my life...flashed before my eyes. And then I was back in the jungle. Still on this bloody island. But those flashes, Charlie? Those flashes...they didn't stop. .

Why didnt you highlight BACK in the jungle? To be back-- is to be somewhere else before you got back

He also says "send me back" "Let me go back one more time"

So by your logic you disregard everything he says except the one word "still"? :) Then by your logic Desmond meant that when he was interacting with people in the past--that was one of the flashes he talked about. That doesnt fit with his flashes one bit. We saw what the flashes looked like because they showed him having them in the Past. Those are the flashes..not the trip in time.

Some of the other points you made are good. I know all of these. The biggest clue to a dream is the reversal of Widmore's room when Des looks at the painting. But when you considers writers purposely cast doubt on Desmonds original thought( that he pleaded to his scientist friend) that he had time traveled---you must also honestly say that was debunked in the Bar when the goal was scored.

Desmond himself proclaimed it and was estatic he was not crazy..he was back in time..and now he can go attempt to change things..this is what he said. Then when he gets BACK to the jungle..he keeps saying it. Send me back..just one more time

To deny that that is what happened, right on the screen, is to project your own bias and wishes upon the story.

Now all the weird things do leave room for a dream or vision. But that is not what Desmond believed--and that was not ending moral of the story. They wanted us to think it was time travel. If you think its a dream because your think your being con'd or by the other weaker evidence..fine..thats honest and not impossible-- knowing Lost. :) But this flat out denial from people about the evidence for time travel doesnt make sense.

The last things I'll say on my point of view is

What was the original question that was asked in this episode by Charlie and us?

How is Desmond preventing events?

Now, as writer, how would you go about answering that question?

Well, I would setup a fake trip back in time that was only a dream.

..yeah right

Now what in the world would that prove? That explains nothing about how he prevented Charlies death. It has no meaning whatsoever to the question. In fact..it completely debunks that Time is involved

So the strength of the TT theory far outweighs a dream. Like I said..knowing Lost..that could be a reason to reject it. And if it turns out to be a dream..then the writers learned nothing about the viewers frustration for answers.

Did anyone think that Mrs. H "changed her tune" in the store? She was nice and willing to help Des find an inexpesive ring. She went to the trouble to walk to another counter for the ring. When Des decides he likes it, she becomes a different person as if smokie took over. Who knows?

She did that because she knew that the first time Desmond lived through this, he didn't buy the ring. Mrs. Hawking did everything she could to get him not to take the ring so that everything that happened before would happen again. If Desmond bought the ring and proposed to Penny, the future would be altered.

Ok, a few thoughts on this. How about if the woman in the shop was Carol DeGroot. And the time thing is directly related to the numbers, trying to solve the death of everything, (trying to avoid your path so to speak) and the reason she is in Desmond's flashes is because she was previously involved in a similar incident that displaced her in space time in an attempt to solve the problems of humanity etc. The way she was talking about "course correcting" and the like made it sound like she had been trying to save people like the man who got hit by the scaffolding for a long time. I don't think it was a dream, it too flagrantly ignored the majority of Lost flashback rules. At the very least it had a basis in time, as being different and able to manipulate to a certain degree. Probably a combination of the Island talking to Desmond, like Locke, like Jack et al. with the idea of time traveling. My guess is that this is just the culmination of things that have been happening all along on the island. This is not an idea or a concept in a vacuum, it has a basis in what has been happening already, most probably with the black smoke.

And if it turns out to be a dream..then the writers learned nothing about the viewers frustration for answers.
Only if you consider it an ordinary dream. If it is in any way influenced by the island/smokey--which we've seen several examples of with other characters in various visions (did Eko travel back in time? After all, he was conversing with his dead brother and being attacked by gangsters he murdered years earlier)--then not only is it completely consistent within the Lost universe, but it serves as further exposition of the visions/flashback phenomena. The guy didn't take a siesta and have a little dream... he experience an incredible physical, mental, and emotional trauma. A near-death-experience of that magnitude--complete with the Wizard of Oz allusions--and a very close brush with arguably the most mysterious and powerful force on the island, perhaps in the world--is hardly just a dream.

And if what we see in Des's flashback was reality in London in the late 90's, then I want some of what he's having! There are too many easter eggs planted there for them to be production errors, and some are too poignant to be red herrings... it's just what Desmond and TPTB told us it was... Flashes Before Your Eyes!

eta: as for Desmond's quote, and my highlighting "still"... that word supercedes the statement before it. He had a very vivid, very real-feeling experience, and woke up "back in the jungle. STILL on this island." Still, as in, he never went anywhere, he was still there. He couldn't be "in London" or "in the past" and "still" be on the island... we'd have to reinterpret the English language, or the rules of logic, or something, I don't know... but "still", by definition, means he never went anywhere. That's why I highlighted that one. From dictionary.com:

still [stil] adjective, -er, -est, noun, adverb, conjunction, verb –adjective
1.remaining in place or at rest; motionless; stationary: to stand still.
10. at this or that time; as previously: Are you still here?
17.Archaic. steadily; constantly; always.

It seems a bit weird to me, to be asking if "this is a vision or did Desmond travel time?". The reason being that it doesn't matter either way. TPTB were being purposely cryptic and vague about it as the answer to "When is a flashback not a flashback" is both. They've left clues that support both sides of the argument.

It's mental time travel because: Desmond was able to recall is 'current' life on the island, Desmond was able to predict the outcome of the soccer game, remembered Charlie, etc.
It's a dream/vision because: well... the exact same reasons with the addition of The Ring Lady and the blow returning him to current time.

I think that the only obvious thing about this sequence is 1) They'd like us to form our own idea about what happened and 2) That the future cannot be changed, obviously to be used as a plot device in further episodes. Just for the record though, I believe that it was a vision given to him. And in said vision, he was reliving this short period of his life. If it was indeed a bout of time travel, then the show would have to involve so much more with the Ring Lady has some sort of "guardian of time" or what have you. It'd be a long and far departure from the small steps and nagging mysteries of the past. It's the difference between showing an oddly-toed statue and the alien-walking-across-the-street scene in Signs.


Edit: I don't use the word dream for a specific reason. It'd imply that the entire experience was all some imaginative result of a concussion. There was definitely an outside influence involved, no matter what you saw it as, manifested in the ring lady.

And one last thing
It seems as if everyone here doesn't watch the "scenes from next weeks Lost" immediately after the show. Anyone else catch a glimpse of a certain enigmatic ring lady on the island? I sure did.

They left no doubt whatsover that he went back in time.

Why did they ?

If Desmond travelled back in time, why is the old lady talking to him ?
Desmond being nude is obviously a nod towards Terminator but i have yet to see proof that he time travelled and there is no ' loop ' as i've seen nothing to indicate that either, only evidence to the contrary.

Another dimension ? Possibly but previous history on Lost would suggest not.
The island talking to him ? Well we've had implications of that before with Jack, Locke, Shannon etc.
Time travel ? I seriously doubt it. Charlie's presence in the flashback, singing Wonderwall suggests to me that the likeliest outcome was that it all happened in Desmonds head.

Or maybe Desmond doesn't actually know that Charlie would have died in both of those events... I don't know, just a possibility.

It seems that some type of deja vu, or vision comes to Desmond now that helps him predict the time frame around Charlie's danger zone = ) Desmond gets that vision face then starts building the lightening rod, then he gets that vision face and runs off to the beach. Just and idea.. :undecide:

I've not read through this entire thread, but I've read enough of it that I was compelled to dig up something from nearly 2 years ago. This also goes a long way toward proving that TPTB do, in fact, have a plan and it's the same plan they've had all along. They're NOT making it up as they go along.

Here is a link to an old thread about an interview with David Fury where the issue of time comes up. I'll spoiler font it to be safe, since there is one aspect which has not yet made it into an episode yet ...

http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=11552&highlight=fury

There's the link to the thread, but here is the particularly interesting quote from David Fury ... DF:Who knows what's possible on the island? There was something that was cut from the episode I did in which Sayid was captured by the French woman Rousseau, and tortured. She said she was with a science team, that she had come from a research vessel. There was a line that was cut from an earlier draft where he said, " What were you studying?" and she said "Time."

It sounds to me like time has been a big deal all along, but they decided not give it away back in season 1.

So if Danielle's research team was researching time, isn't it interesting that they ended up on this particular island when they followed the numbers transmission. OR ... was she lying about that and they actually came to the island on purpose? And what has she (or did they) discover about time properties on the island that would be really helpful to our lostaways if they only knew?

I've always been under the impression that they've known most of the big picture the entire. They're just connecting the lines as they see fit while they go though.

For all the references to the similarities of time traveling in other pieces of work and this episode, there is the one main fact that contradicts all those similarities. This is the fact that the future goes unchanged despite any altered actions in the past. And honestly, Charlie would remember Desmond. If I ever encountered a seeming psychopath who right on cue predicted the rain, I'd probably remember it.

So either Desmond didn't go back in time, or he did and it made no difference whatsoever to him just imagining it, because nothing that happened affected anything but his own thought.

Thanks, ForgivenTheWarLord and Brermike! Glad you find my little explanation interesting!
Now I would like to expand it a little bit more...

Following my idea from a couple of posts above, we could even understand how Smokie could determine if a person is 'good' or 'bad'. First, it chooses its target, then it reads his/her memories searching for 'key points' in the person's past. Points in which he or she may have been forced to make difficult decisions. Now Smokie, based on this information, recreates a sequence in the target's past life and lets this person relive that part of his/her life again. What for? To see if this person makes the same mistake/decision twice. Let's take Ecko's case. Perhaps during the implosion, Ecko was transported to the time in which he was a young boy and killed a man to save his brother. He may have done it again in Smokie's test. This was definitely wrong according to Smokie's beliefs, so it gave Ecko a last chance to redeem himself by 'regreting his sins' in front of his brother Yemi. Ecko didn't, so he was erradicated.
But what is Smokie? How on earth can it do the things it does? Well, if we ruled out Time Travel, which could easily explain it, and we accept they are still living in 2004-2005, there's only one explanation left for me... 'Paranormal phenomena'.

This 'not science-based' idea has been brought up in the show several times: Claire's psychic, Walt's specialness, Desmond's flashes of the future and in the Orientation film itself. Let's not forget there might be a whole station dedicated to study parapsycology phenomena. Is it the Flame, by the way? Is Patchy involved or related to the Black Cloud in some way? There's definitely some religious connotations in the way Smokie judges people. So whoever is 'controling' it might be some kind of religious 'freak'. And who could this person be? There has been a very mysterious biblic name showing up in the last few episodes that may hold the answer: Jacob. He is our man.

I've not read through this entire thread, but I've read enough of it that I was compelled to dig up something from nearly 2 years ago. This also goes a long way toward proving that TPTB do, in fact, have a plan and it's the same plan they've had all along. They're NOT making it up as they go along.

[/spoiler]

They are making up huge chunks of it as they go along. In Season 2, they basically rewrote Desmonds history from " man in bunker scared of sickness, the button and nthe outside world " to " man in bunker who knew there was no sickness, knew there was a failsafe and ventured outside...and he has a love story ".

They've also had to write out characters like Libby ( we'll never know about the institution now - big hole ) and Ana Lucia ( more unanswered questions ).

Through being forced by unforseen circumstances and on audience figures and their reactions to certain characters, TPTB are making up huge parts of this as they go along.

What about The Pearl with the tubes that just end up in a pile in the middle of the island where people can see them ? What's that about ?!!!

My big problem with the 'time travel is guaranteed' idea is exactly for the reasons of what was shown.

We clearly see that Desmond believes he knows the outcome of a soccer game, before it happens. But it doesnt. They dont score, the cricket guy doesnt pound on the barkeep.

BUT, the next day, he gets to watch the same match AGAIN? That makes no sense, but it does fit with the idea that he's having a crazy, intense dream-like revisiting of a traumatic time in his life.

Now, why can he glimpse flashes forward? The only thing I can think of is something we learned about Dharma. They were studying a number of things, including remote viewing.

Remote viewing, if it really exists, is a study of the mind's ability to 'see' what the eyes could not possibly. Remote viewers also claim that they have a skill that allows them to draw a picture of an object you will show them in a hour.

I wonder if Desmond's 'flashes' are a sort of 'remote viewing gone wild', where he can see something, wether he concentrates or not. This is a weird place afterall

My big problem with the 'time travel is guaranteed' idea is exactly for the reasons of what was shown.

We clearly see that Desmond believes he knows the outcome of a soccer game, before it happens. But it doesnt. They dont score, the cricket guy doesnt pound on the barkeep.

BUT, the next day, he gets to watch the same match AGAIN? That makes no sense, but it does fit with the idea that he's having a crazy, intense dream-like revisiting of a traumatic time in his life.


It was explained in the episode that he got the the game mixed up with the one he 'remembered'. He did remember the events (the team coming back to score twice late on and the guy coming into the bar to attack the barman) but they didn't occur on that particular evening.

It's not clear that the next occasion, when he saw the other match, was only one day later but it doesn't really matter. He was remembering an evening in a pub watching a football match many years in the past.
100%
For all the references to the similarities of time traveling in other pieces of work and this episode, there is the one main fact that contradicts all those similarities. This is the fact that the future goes unchanged despite any altered actions in the past. And honestly, Charlie would remember Desmond. If I ever encountered a seeming psychopath who right on cue predicted the rain, I'd probably remember it.

So either Desmond didn't go back in time, or he did and it made no difference whatsoever to him just imagining it, because nothing that happened affected anything but his own thought.

If Charlie had been busking in London for some time chances are that he would see a fair share of weirdos. No reason to link a well dressed guy in a suit with a dishevelled 'wild man' who shows up on the Island many years later. Jack didn't seem to remember Desmond right away - or at least couldn't be sure - nor did Desmond seem to remember Jack immediately.

For me, the blinking poster kills the time travel theory, unless you want to say Desmond traveled back to a time and place where objects no longer behave the same. I favor the lucid dream theory, with the Island making an appearance in the form of the ring lady trying to influence Desmond's actions.

[quote=Quinch;1385009]It was explained in the episode that he got the the game mixed up with the one he 'remembered'. He did remember the events (the team coming back to score twice late on and the guy coming into the bar to attack the barman) but they didn't occur on that particular evening.

It's not clear that the next occasion, when he saw the other match, was only one day later but it doesn't really matter. He was remembering an evening in a pub watching a football match many years in the past.
100%


That could explain it, but the key here is as you said...he was remembering long ago events, not re-living them. If you re-live events, you dont need a good memory.

If Charlie had been busking in London for some time chances are that he would see a fair share of weirdos. No reason to link a well dressed guy in a suit with a dishevelled 'wild man' who shows up on the Island many years later. Jack didn't seem to remember Desmond right away - or at least couldn't be sure - nor did Desmond seem to remember Jack immediately.

Jack did remember Desmond but said nothing probably because he was of the opinion that they were there by accident and didn't want to lend any substance to Locke's argument that they were there for a reason.

If Charlie doesn't remember Desmond then he's even more annoying. As it stands, i don't think that incident ever happened. Nor do i think Desmond was hit by the bat.

Okay, still trying to somewhat understand this... If desmond did really time travel, how does it make sense that the ring shop lady was Smokey? Did he time travel along with Desmond? If not, what is Smokey doing in London? These questions of course become invalid if one argues that Desmond only "mentally" time-travelled, so is that perhaps what's being said?

They're probably dumb questions, but hey. Damn you, lost.

They are making up huge chunks of it as they go along. In Season 2, they basically rewrote Desmonds history from " man in bunker scared of sickness, th