I guess that Charlies middle name, It was on his sign when des met up with him on the the street. Sorry if this has been brought up, please show me to the right thread if it has. Has Charlies middle name been mentioned before? All I got from wikipiedia is that Hieronymus is a freaky painter.

Oh...it's far freakier than a silly painter...have a look at THIS:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hieronymus_machine

THAT is freaky.

Oh...it's far freakier than a silly painter...have a look at THIS:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hieronymus_machine

THAT is freaky.

WOW. That is a hell of a find!! Any thoughts????

Well, my initial thought is maybe Charlie did die when he was hung by Ethan and Smoky became the "Hieronymus machine" a fake Charlie which functioned just like the real one!

Oh...it's far freakier than a silly painter...have a look at THIS:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hieronymus_machine

THAT is freaky.


That is freaky!! I will comment on it more tommarrow. I have to get up early. Thanks for posting it , very intresting!

I don't know if my brain can take anymore tonight. :blink:

Why would that be on his sign though?

here is a link to more info on the Hieronymus Machine....

http://www.wdjensen123.com/hieronymus/Report1.htm

at this point, i don't really understand it,
but a few things jumped out at me....

.....projected specific frequencies of Eloptic radiation into materials, and living things.......
the machine will work for 80% of the population. The percentage is even higher if you have the will and desire to be successful with the machine........
Thus, the device is an objective incremental teaching tool that can provide a fundamental starting point for the psychic studies in radiasthesia, dowsing, clairvoyance, remote-viewing, inter-dimensional communication, healing, etc.

kinda sounds like qualities that may give some explanation to our old friend Smokey?
Locke and Eko definitely had the will and desire for it's success.

could the island be one of these mahines?
with it's healing (Locke walking, Sun's pregnancy)?
clairvoyance (Desmond)?
projecting living things (Jack's Dad, Kate's Horse, Walt to Shannon, Hurley's bud Dave)?

boggles the mind :34853_huh:

I don't know if my brain can take anymore tonight. :blink:

Why would that be on his sign though?

I think it was just a name that he came up with. But TPTB are using it as a means of putting in a juicy little tidbit of a suggestion to all of us.

That IS freaky, my brain is frying!!

wow, my brain is melting

Oh...it's far freakier than a silly painter...have a look at THIS:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hieronymus_machine

THAT is freaky.

oh. my. gosh. freaking hell.....

Not only that, but....
http://www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/auth/bosch/7sins/

At first glance, what does that painting remind you of?
Exactly.

This is getting better and better.

Not only that, but....
http://www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/auth/bosch/7sins/

At first glance, what does that painting remind you of?
Exactly.

This is getting better and better.


ummmm....FREAKY!!!!!

Also, isn't Geronimo (as in Geronimo Jackson) the Spanish version of Hieronymus? See, for example, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_de_Geronimo.

Totally freaked out with the 'Hieronymus Machine'!
I remember when people were saying they couldn't see a difference when Juliet turned the dial looking at Kate, Alex, Sawyer...perhaps it has something to do with the machine (http://www.wdjensen123.com/hieronymus/Report1.htm)?
3) Tuner – The machine uses two dials which merely intensify and make more pronounced the stick effect from adjusting of the Refractor.
Was Juliet fine-tuning her psychic abilities or perception? Those 'waves' do travel through the air, no need for headphones. (Does this mean Juliet created the bus situation?)
100%
Hieronymus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hieronymus), Variants of this name include:

* Geronimo
* Hiero
* Jerome
* Jeroen - Dutch variant

Also interesting, from the game, Kronos Titandioxid:
Titandioxid=Titanium dioxide (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanium_dioxide)

KRONOS (http://www.theoi.com/Titan/TitanKronos.html) (or Cronus) was the Titan god of time and the ages, especially time where regarded as destructive and all-devouring.

I think we'll find out that Megan Pace (Charlies mum) was an artist or at least an art lover. Verrocchio's 'Baptism of Christ' was hanging on the wall of the Pace household, so I think Megan gave Charlie his middle name in reference to Hieronymus Bosch.

Maybe Megan Pace was a painter, but her butcher husband bullied her out of an art career, just like he tried to bully Charlie out of a music career? Maybe this is why Megan is so precious about Charlies music - like one of those pushy stage mums that is compensating for their own failed dreams by encouraging their childrens dreams?

Oh...it's far freakier than a silly painter...have a look at THIS:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hieronymus_machine

THAT is freaky.


Interesting.....

Wow oh Wow oh wow. This is amazing.

Ok so this may sound a bit weird, but just stick with me, ok? We've never heard Charlie refer to himself by the name Hieronymus before and it does seem a bit odd for a lowerclass Brit to have such a name.

We know that Des was in some kind of alt. universe (real or imagined is yet to be determined). What if that wasn't Charlie Pace at all but an entirely different alternate Charlie (who happened to look like him and play guitar)?

I know its a bit out there, but this is LOST, afterall.

My only other theory is that maybe he was too embarrassed to use his real name while busking in the street after being in the late, great Driveshaft.

I don;t think it's his actual name, just something he was using as a busking name. The writers obviously chose it because they knew someone would enter it inot a search engine and it would prove interesting discussion! It does seem a bit strange that he would have a middle name like that!

Someone in the other thread mentioned one of the paintings by Bosch. My friend has a copy of this in her house, and I've always been interested it in. If you click on The Garden of Earthly Delights, you'll see a bigger image of it:

http://www.wga.hu/frames-e.html?/html/b/bosch/index.html

or it could be the Greek historian
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hieronymus_of_Cardia

We know that Des was in some kind of alt. universe (real or imagined is yet to be determined). What if that wasn't Charlie Pace at all but an entirely different alternate Charlie (who happened to look like him and play guitar)?

I know its a bit out there, but this is LOST, afterall.

I don't think it's out-there at all. My impression was that Desmond may never have actually met Charlie, and consequently we can't be certain that Hieronymus is actually Charlie's middle name. It could be a reference to the Hieronymus machine that indicates the never-happened nature of Desmond's flashbacks -- i.e. that wasn't really Charlie, but basically a mockup of him.

I still find the connection to 'The Garden of Earthly Delights' Bosch tryptich compelling (see the other Hieronymus thread). Many of our Losties have sketchy pasts at best. The tryptich depicts the garden of Eden, the bacchus and sin of life on earth, and finally, hell.

I'm intrigued by the "snow globe" in "The Garden of Earthly Delights." I've had this painting in my basement for years but I never saw the snow globe because it's a print and isn't on both sides.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Hieronymus_Bosch_-_The_Garden_of_Earthly_Delights_-_The_exterior_%28shutters%29.jpg

I don't think it's out-there at all. My impression was that Desmond may never have actually met Charlie, and consequently we can't be certain that Hieronymus is actually Charlie's middle name. It could be a reference to the Hieronymus machine that indicates the never-happened nature of Desmond's flashbacks -- i.e. that wasn't really Charlie, but basically a mockup of him.

I'm leaning towards this theory. It mean Hieronymous would be a clue to the time loop and to the fact that Charlie wasn't a real memory. I don't think they ever met off the island or Charlie would remember that encounter. Desmond never gave Charlie a "You?" like he did with Jack. I think the island is setting up a scheme trying to get Desmond to resign himself to his fate. It's another test like they've all been tested by the island the same way.

The machine thing is cool (although I tend to hold Wikipedia entries in low esteem).

But if TPTB keep with their usual references to literature, then we should look to the scholar of the same name who translated the scriptures into Latin. This keeps with the development of Charlie under the former Eko's Biblical guidance.

Very interesting. Thanks for the link

I'm intrigued by the "snow globe" in "The Garden of Earthly Delights." I've had this painting in my basement for years but I never saw the snow globe because it's a print and isn't on both sides.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Hieronymus_Bosch_-_The_Garden_of_Earthly_Delights_-_The_exterior_%28shutters%29.jpg


Yes, yes! I forgot about the snow globe. I seriously have this framed, and it's in my basement. Everyone near the snow globe is so deleriously oblivious.

I'm sure TPTB threw in a Hieronymus reference just to see whether we'd discuss it ad nauseum. Garden of Earthly Delights really is a stunning piece of art though

So from what I can tell, this Hieronymos machine works because the user believes that it will (like placebo medication). In reality, they don't need the machine, just the confidence the machine gives them. Is that what everyone else is getting from that? As far as an alt. Des and Charlie, I keep coming back to Desmond telling Penny before he left that the race around the world was his destiny and him insinuating that Jack really did "fix" Sarah. I think maybe when the sky turned purple, Des slipped back in time.:undecide: Once again we have free will vs. destiny.

So from what I can tell, this Hieronymos machine works because the user believes that it will (like placebo medication). In reality, they don't need the machine, just the confidence the machine gives them. Is that what everyone else is getting from that? As far as an alt. Des and Charlie, I keep coming back to Desmond telling Penny before he left that the race around the world was his destiny and him insinuating that Jack really did "fix" Sarah. I think maybe when the sky turned purple, Des slipped back in time.:undecide: Once again we have free will vs. destiny.

Right. The universe is what you believe it is. If Desmond believes he has free will, then he does. The old lady was either lying to manipulate Desmond or she really believed she had no free will and fate determined everything, so that was her reality. But Desmond is not bound by her reality.

Hieronymus Bosch is also the main character in most of Michael Connelly's books.

Right. The universe is what you believe it is. If Desmond believes he has free will, then he does. The old lady was either lying to manipulate Desmond or she really believed she had no free will and fate determined everything, so that was her reality. But Desmond is not bound by her reality.

It's like what Locke said "Don't tell me what I can't do". There are appears to be forces at work trying to keep the characters on a rigid path, whereas the reality is that each person has a hand in what their future brings. If Kelvin, Desmond, and Locke thought they were "saving the world" by punching in the numbers, than that's what they were doing.

Some nice comments there. In regards to the Hieronymus Machine, it seems to describe the workings of the smoke monster perfectly. But whether that's what it was supposed to hint at I don't know.

Some nice comments there. In regards to the Hieronymus Machine, it seems to describe the workings of the smoke monster perfectly. But whether that's what it was supposed to hint at I don't know.

that was my first thought exactly,
i brushed on it in my earlier post in this thread
there's even a couple examples of why this makes sense.....
as if anything at this point actually makes sense :cnfused1:

I'm a bit confused by the timeline,
when Des see Charlie, is this before or after driveshaft got big and how do we know this?

The other strange thing is at the end of this scene Des says he remembers moment and then he says out loud what happens, he mentions that Pen say something to him, but Pen isn't in the scene.

i remember reading somewhere that Driveshaft was formed in 1999.
in one of the threads, someone was dating Des's 'flashbacks' to 1997 ( i think with some help from a song in the epi),
so all things being equal, Des seeing Charlie occurs 2 yrs before they hit it big.

So, no one else sees the resemblance of the blast door map to this (http://www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/auth/bosch/7sins/) ?

Read the description. It's quite interesting. Yet another Hieronymus reference.

I'm sure TPTB threw in a Hieronymus reference just to see whether we'd discuss it ad nauseum. Garden of Earthly Delights really is a stunning piece of art though

It's also another possible Philosopher reference.
Karl Joseph Hieronymus Windischmann
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15652c.htm

Philosopher, b. at Mainz, 25 August, 1775; d. at Bonn, 23 April, 1839. He attended the gymnasium at Mainz, and in 1772 took the course in philosophy at he university there...
In his earlier years Windischmann's philosophy, as shown in his work "Ideen zur Physik" (I, Wurzburg and Bamberg, 1805), was a pantheistic mysticism entirely under the influence of Schelling's philosophy of nature. He believed, however, that he could unite it with Christianity. But gradually he worked his way into a positive Christian philosophy. In his chief work, "Die Philosophie im Fortgang der Weltgeschichte", he planned to present the history of philosophy in connection with a positive Christian philosophy of history, although this latter, it must be said, was influenced by Hegel

FOUR pages to this thread and nobody figured out Charlie's middle name, Hieronymus is an anagram of "Heroin's Yum"???

i remember reading somewhere that Driveshaft was formed in 1999.
in one of the threads, someone was dating Des's 'flashbacks' to 1997 ( i think with some help from a song in the epi),
so all things being equal, Des seeing Charlie occurs 2 yrs before they hit it big.
I have to say that the dating of Desmond's flashback to 1997 is weird 'cuz I believe the poster used the song playing on the radio as a reference. So now I can be safe to assume that every radio station plays only the most current songs to date?

No, because the anagram thing is really getting old and tired. :)
It's like someone naming the couple Claironymus. Enough already, ya know? :p

But no, seriously, I think it's more of the throwback to Hieronymus the artist than the writers/creators basing it off of an anagram. :)

FOUR pages to this thread and nobody figured out Charlie's middle name, Hieronymus is an anagram of "Heroin's Yum"???

That's a great catch cleantone! :)

I'm intrigued by the "snow globe" in "The Garden of Earthly Delights." I've had this painting in my basement for years but I never saw the snow globe because it's a print and isn't on both sides.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Hieronymus_Bosch_-_The_Garden_of_Earthly_Delights_-_The_exterior_%28shutters%29.jpg


That's actually the Creation of Earth. But yeah, it also looks like a snowglobe. Another important thing to note with the Garden of Earthly Delights is the theme of apothecary, the chemistry of the middle ages. That's what a lot of the globes, pipes, etc in the middle panel are, parts of a chemistry experiment. The chemistry between the humans, their reactions to one another, creation...yadda yadda...I was an art history major and wrote a paper on this piece, I could go on for a while, but I'll stop :lipsseal:

I have to say that the dating of Desmond's flashback to 1997 is weird 'cuz I believe the poster used the song playing on the radio as a reference. So now I can be safe to assume that every radio station plays only the most current songs to date?

That is interesting. We should figure out when that was exactly. I think they said three years before the race around the world right? So maybe we can figure out a rough date. When Charlie said something to the effect of, "give me a donation and I'll tell you". I was thinking that this was post Driveshaft success and that is "what he would tell him". Now that this has been brought to light, it makes more sense that it would be before that time. I wish Desmond said something to the effect of, "remember when I predicted the rain in England that day on the street". Or something like that once he spilled the beans.

If we count backwards to determine the approximate time line here is what I come up with.

-- Crash in Sept 04
-- Desmond on the island 3 years prior to the crash (sometime in 2001)
-- Desmond trained for a year prior to the race (1999-2000)
-- Desmond is locked up in military prison (unknown length of time?)
-- Desmond serves in the military (unknown length of time?)
-- Desmond breaks up with Penny

Seems most likely that the flashback occured between 1994-1998. I haven't dated the songs yet - that might help narrow down the guess.

Not sure what songs is dating the FB to 1997 but wonderwall would date it to fall 1995 to mid 1996 at the very earliest and could be anytime after that.

I think there was a Sarah McLachlan song in the epi too...Can't remember which right now...

I think there was a Sarah McLachlan song in the epi too...Can't remember which right now...

that's what i read.....a Sarah McLachlan song is what they used to come up with 97.

and if bjsguess's approx timeline works - and i tend to agree with it - 97 falls into that window.

what doesn't help is that during the scene where Desmond and Penelop have their photo taken on the Embankment, the crew managed to do a good job of hiding the huge Millenium Wheel, which was almost right next to where the characters were (opened 2000), on the far bank of the river, to the right of the Houses of Parliament, Portcullis House (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portcullis_House) is clearly visible - it wasn't even built until 2001...

I just checked...it was Building a Mystery off of Adia & according to the Sarah McLachlin website, it was released in 1998 so that would make it after that..
100%
what doesn't help is that during the scene where Desmond and Penelop have their photo taken on the Embankment, the crew managed to do a good job of hiding the huge Millenium Wheel, which was almost right next to where the characters were (opened 2000), on the far bank of the river, to the right of the Houses of Parliament, Portcullis House (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portcullis_House) is clearly visible - it wasn't even built until 2001...
Your link says it was started 1998 ...opened 2001

I just checked...it was Building a Mystery off of Adia & according to the Sarah McLachlin website, it was released in 1998 so that would make it after that..

The release date depends on the country, Building a mystery was released in canada in the summer of 1997, but didn't get released as a single until the spring of 1999 in the UK.


Where was building a mystery played.

Pen.... It was the scene when Penny ties Dez's tie

As soon as I saw the Painting of The Garden of Earthly Delights, and when you all mentioned its snowglobe-like appearance, Desmond's comment immediately jumped into my head. When he first comes back for the island after trying to sail away, he says that he was supposed to be in Fiji, but somehow ended up back at the island. He thinks they are in a snow globe of sorts. Is this some sort of connection? Maybe the whole island region is some other world? Perhaps its a stretch.

I just checked...it was Building a Mystery off of Adia & according to the Sarah McLachlin website, it was released in 1998 so that would make it after that..
100%

Your link says it was started 1998 ...opened 2001

Yes, but I'm guessing the roof wasn't put on until at least 2000, and it would have been surrounded by construction hoarding until it was opened...

I would say people from all classes are art lovers. Being working class doesn't exclude Charlie's mom from enjoying creativity.

if desmond dreamed in this scene, he probably dont know charlies last name.

Why is everyone trying to date the songs in a DREAM sequence?

Why is everyone trying to date the songs in a DREAM sequence?

For one. To figure out if Charlie had been in Driveshaft yet, or if that was after this encounter. Beside that it does help putting things in a timeline of sorts.

Hey guys, I don't know if this has been mentioned, but an anagram for Hieronymus is Hume's irony...

Oh...it's far freakier than a silly painter...have a look at THIS:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hieronymus_machine

THAT is freaky.

That is a cool find! Very interesting

I scoured the boards and saw a post about an inventor with the name Hieronymous which also seems very relevant but I did not see anything about the painter - which I have pasted below...what is very interesting is that both the inventor and the painter used symbols as a basis...enjoy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hieronymus_Bosch

"Hieronymus Bosch, (latinized; also Jeroen Bosch or his real name Jeroen van Aken) (c. 1450 – August, 1516) was a prolific Dutch painter of the 15th and 16th centuries. Many of his works depict sin and human moral failings. Bosch used images of demons, half-human animals and machines to evoke fear and confusion to portray the evil of man. The works contain complex, highly original, imaginative, and dense use of symbolic figures and iconography, some of which was obscure even in his own time. He is said to have been an inspiration for the surrealist movement in the 20th century."...

"He produced several triptychs, works of three paintings on wooden panels that are attached to each other. Among his most famous is The Garden of Earthly Delights. This triptych depicts paradise with Adam and Eve and many wondrous animals on the left panel, the earthly delights with numerous nude figures and tremendous fruit and birds on the middle panel, and hell with depictions of fantastic punishments of the various types of sinners on the right panel. When the exterior panels are closed the viewer can see, painted in grisaille, God creating the earth.

These paintings have a rough surface from the application of paint; this contrasts with the traditional Flemish style of paintings, where the smooth surface attempts to hide the fact that the painting is man-made.

Toward the end of his life, Bosch's style changed and he created paintings with a small number of large figures who appear to almost leave the painting and stand close to the observer. An example is Christ Crowned with Thorns.

Bosch never dated his paintings and may have signed only some of them (other signatures are certainly not his). All in all, about 25 paintings remain today that are attributed to him. Philip II of Spain acquired many of Bosch's paintings after the painter's death; as a result, the Prado Museum in Madrid now owns several of his works, including The Garden of Earthly Delights."...

"In 2004 Bosch ended on the 63rd place in the election of De Grootste Nederlander (The Greatest Dutchman)"

I've always been a big fan of Bosch's work. Garden of Earthly Delights is amazing. What that has to do with Lost, I'm not sure... :rolleyes:

I am really surprised MORE hasn't been made of this. I just assumed among the bajillion posts that this had been covered. Guess I was wrong! Hieronymus's work is all about judgement, and man's slide toward destruction. The theme of his paintings totally fit Charlie who has been the cause of his own suffering, which ties back into the Others apparent philosophy seen in the brainwashing room.

I would wager the writer who put that connection in is as surprised as I am that MORE isn't being made about the content of Hieronymus's work considering the supernatural underpinnings of the show as a whole. Forget the nit picky tie in's with all these philosophers we here about (John Locke, etc). Check out these paintings!

http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=69349&highlight=bosch

There was some discussion about Bosch here that started right after Flashes Before Your Eyes aired . . . specifically about the meaning of the Garden of Earthly Delights tryptich. I find it meaningful as well.

Not only was the Garden of Earthly Delights mentioned in that thread, but I had also mentioned this (http://www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/auth/bosch/7sins/), Bosch's The Seven Deadly Sins, which looks eerily enough like a template for the blast door map (several of my Lost-addicted friends have agreed).

Taken from that site (with some added grammatical corrections):

"The Seven Deadly Sins is a painted rectangle with a central image of the eye of God, with Christ watching the world. The Seven Deadly Sins, depicted through scenes of worldly transgression, are arranged around the circular shape. The circular layout with god in the centre represents God's all-seeing eye. No sin goes unnoticed. In the corners of the image appear the "Four Last Things" mentioned in late medieval spiritual handbooks: Deathbed, the Last Judgment, Heaven, and Hell, all of which are favorite themes of separate Bosch panels."

If you look at the blast door map, all of the hatches are arranged in a circular fashion, with the ? station at the center. If you recall, the ? is where the multi-monitored station was located. Everyone was able to be viewed from here, if I remember correctly (kind of like all of the monitors that are set up at the Hydra on Others Island). "The circular layout with god in the centre represents God's all-seeing eye. No sin goes unnoticed." True that.

I've always been a big fan of Bosch's work. Garden of Earthly Delights is amazing. What that has to do with Lost, I'm not sure... :rolleyes:

Just to clarify: Hieronymus is "Charlie's middle name" in the flash back sequence with Des.

:cool:
Charlies middle name is 'Hieronymus' which is a form of the name Geronimo. There have also been a few refernces to Geronimo Jackson. But what does it mean?

It immediately made me think of one of the basic of philosophy. It may be a cliche but it is a very good point!

It is a word we hear in relation to something being shouted as something, often a tree, falls

AND

if a tree falls in the woods and there is no-one there to hear it does it make a sound.

This is a simplified variation on the Buddhist philosophy which asks what is the sound of one hand clapping.

Thought it was interesting and fits well with my theory.

if anyone is interested in some more discussion relating to the Hieronymus Machine, there's been some good theorizing over here......

http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=69518