Discuss.

Personally, it didn't seem all as forced as it was made out to be. Sawyer, Kate, and Jack were pretty logical and reasonable in regards to their dialogue. I was smiling my arse off when Jack was talking to Tom about 'what kind of people he thinks they are'. Great dialogue.

Though Sawyer letting Karl go was obviously a 'stalling tactic', I don't have any big qualms with how it was handled. It wasn't as bad as Kate's application of her knowledge of the 'fake beard' at the end of Season 2. It also wasn't as bad as Locke not believing Charlie or Eko about the island giving people visions and so forth. That was bad...

I'd prefer, though, if Karl ran away after Sawyer talked to him. Would've made more sense.

This post explains my opinion better: http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showpost.php?p=1392250&postcount=18

Look. I know it's a tv show. I know it's fiction. I know we can't always expect real world scenarios from a sci fi television show. I get that.

But why one EARTH would Sawyer let Karl go? Cuz now they got a 'bro's before hoes' thing going on? Because Sawyer loves Kate so he understands Karl's misery? Hello? This guy may just be able to help you get off this island, or at the very least, TELL YOU EVERYTHING. Or lead you to everything.

And the whole issue Kate had with what Sawyer was doing rapidly changed from 'that was dumb' to 'you are not treating me fairly, wah'

Yes karl could have filled them in with everything the others know about the island and importantly whether they can escape. It really doesn't make any sense to let him go unless sawyer no longer wants to leave the island.

i dont think our losties have seen the last of karl...eventually i think he will need our losties help.

cdngirl, you're missing hte point. No one, especially Sawyer, would let Karl go.

And we're all aware of Kate's random mood swings that are there purely to make the plot advance. She's probably the worst character in the show. Due to her 'utility' to the writers, she doesn't really have any character or personality left

I thought Sawyer made perfect sense when he said "the kid's a target." He's a savvy guy. He was probably concerned that the Others would come after Karl, thus putting himself and Kate in danger.
100%
But I should also say that I'm glad they didn't kill Karl or anything. I'm thinking we certainly haven't seen the last of him.

I keep wondering if it wasn't a way to save Jack. Perhaps he was "letting Karl go" to go back and help save Jack through he and Alex.

random decision, totally against characters previous decisions in the past

He let Karl go because he saw that Karl only wanted to be with Alex, nothing else mattered. Sawyer was thinking of Kate, and how 'once in a great while, someone comes along that makes you give start stupid names.' Karl would be nothing but a burden because he would only be thinking of Alex 24/7 and be miserable. Plus he probably didn't want him and Kate dreaming up some idea to go rescue Jack and Alex.

I agree with Kate on that one (not that she was making the brightest decisions through this thing), Karl wasn't a target. They wanted to get rid of Karl, why would they go after him again? Letting him go before shaking him down for every possible bit of information was just plain stupid.

The only reason I could think of for Sawyer letting him go without telling Kate was because there's a part of Sawyer that doesn't want Jack to return. Maybe he thinks his best chance with Kate is if Jack's out of the picture, so he's doing what he can to improve his chances. I just don't buy the Karl has to go get the girl thing. I think Sawyer was looking out for himself.

Sawyer really doesn't care about "unravelling" the mysteries of the island. Are you confusing him with Locke? I honestly don't see anything wrong with him letting Karl go. Who cares?

The only reason I could think of for Sawyer letting him go without telling Kate was because there's a part of Sawyer that doesn't want Jack to return. Maybe he thinks his best chance with Kate is if Jack's out of the picture, so he's doing what he can to improve his chances. I just don't buy the Karl has to go get the girl thing. I think Sawyer was looking out for himself.

I can live with that explanation because it was definitely on Sawyer's mind with Kate constantly talking about going to get Jack. But really all Sawyer had to do was spend 20 minutes asking Karl questions before he let him go to find out everything possible about the others, that would have been a smart thing to do for his own future safety and survival as well. Especially because he said he was worried about being a target of the others because of Karl.

Not just cuz Karl loved Alex like he loved Kate.

I think he sensed that Karl didn't know much more than he told them about Hydra and Otherville already. After all, he and Alex weren't quite adults yet. Suppose he knew something about crime and punishment among the Others (from personal experience and past observation).

Because he knew where the Others lived (not Hydra--that's where they worked)? The losties wouldn't have gotten within miles of the place--the Others would be looking for them to come!

Personally, I wonder if James was afraid that if Karl didn't know what he would be asked, that Locke and Sayid would suspect he was hiding things from them, and the latter would start, well, doing what he did to James, regarding Shannon's inhalers. And from what James had seen of Room 23, Karl had had quite enough torture!

But you are right in that letting Karl go doesn't SEEM to make sense.

James has his own set of standards and rules, though, and has always followed THEM. Again, "there's not much difference between" James & Jack, really. Jack's actions for Alex and Juliet might seem a bit crazy, too. My thought: Jack did what he did to gain allies among the Others. James did what he did cuz he sensed that, if Karl DID get back to Alex, and they escaped, that BOTH would find their way to beach camp--and become powerful, willing allies. (Which even Sayid would come to see.)

Not saying this is how it is--just that James may be seeing things differently from most of the beachies and us viewers. Seeing how calm and sharp he's stayed in crisis situations in the past, I'm inclined to think that maybe James' viewpoint might be more "sensible" than we give him credit for. I'd like to see how this plays out before passing judgement.

Yes, for the same reason Charlie killed Ethan and Walt sailed off into the sunset -- their staying around would reveal too much too soon.

Just another stalling tactic.

I thought it was good continuity in showing the Sawyer is continuing to act unselfishy. Yes, they probably could've gotten some info about the Others by keeping Karl around... but really, how much do we honestly believe Karl even knows? Sawyer did the right thing by letting the kid choose his own path instead of trying to manipulate him for his own advantage. After all that Kate, Sawyer, and Jack have been through in terms of being used as pawns to accomplish the goals of the Others, I can't believe that anyone would actually think that Sawyer acted wrongly in encouraging Karl to go back to get his girl. Kudos to Sawyer for once in his life not using someone for his own ends -- it shows huge character growth on his part, in my opinion. I really don't get why people are saying this was a bad episode -- small moments like this are huge if you read them the right way.

I thought it was good continuity in showing the Sawyer is continuing to act unselfishy. Yes, they probably could've gotten some info about the Others by keeping Karl around... but really, how much do we honestly believe Karl even knows? Sawyer did the right thing by letting the kid choose his own path instead of trying to manipulate him for his own advantage. After all that Kate, Sawyer, and Jack have been through in terms of being used as pawns to accomplish the goals of the Others, I can't believe that anyone would actually think that Sawyer acted wrongly in encouraging Karl to go back to get his girl. Kudos to Sawyer for once in his life not using someone for his own ends -- it shows huge character growth on his part, in my opinion. I really don't get why people are saying this was a bad episode -- small moments like this are huge if you read them the right way.

That's all very nice but at that moment they didn't have the luxury of character growth. They are stranded on a dangerous island. They had just been held captive and tortured by Karl's people. I'm not advocating violence on Karl but they certainly had a right to seek answers that could help them. Can Karl's people make contact with the outside world? Is there a way to seek rescue? Are there more boats? These are not selfish acts. This is basic survival.

That's all very nice but at that moment they didn't have the luxury of character growth. They are stranded on a dangerous island. They had just been held captive and tortured by Karl's people. I'm not advocating violence on Karl but they certainly had a right to seek answers that could help them. Can Karl's people make contact with the outside world? Is there a way to seek rescue? Are there more boats? These are not selfish acts. This is basic survival.

I still just can't see it as anything other than the right thing to do. Sawyer gave Karl the choice of staying or going, which is a basic right that any human being owes another. After having been imprisoned himself for as long as he was (both on the island and off), I'm proud of Sawyer for having the decency not to subject someone else to that.

Besides, I don't think that character growth -- in this case, doing what is morally right -- is what you would call a "luxury." Sure, you have the choice of "survival" vs. "doing the right thing." Many characters on this show choose the former over the latter, and some choose the latter over the former. That's at the whole crux of what this show is about. What are you willing to do to survive? Sawyer showed tonight that his priorities have shifted from simply looking out for #1 to respecting other people's rights.

In regards to 'making sense' and 'plot-devices'.

At this point in LOST, I know a tonne about the character personalities and most of what I see that 'doesn't fit' usually makes sense within some overlooking of the situation. I hated Locke during most of season 2, Kate since the start of season 2, and Jack during season 2. Not to mention I always hated Claire. After a bit of stepping back and analyzing, I can be more forgiving.
Locke was being 'played' by Ben and was being emotionally and faithfully torn apart. What I absolutely still hate, though, is his jackarsery towards his good friend Charlie. Also, I hate how Locke was making fun of Eko and Charlie when they said the island showed them something. I mean, what a hypocrite. Of course, this was all because he was depressed and pessimistic about what he 'thought' was a divine messenger, but he was totally out of character for half of season 2. They could've at least shown us some good ol' hunter Locke or friendly Locke, but all they really showed us was unfaithfull Locke, which was hard to endure.

Also, why is everyone so mean to Charlie? Claire is a freaking bench towards Charlie.
Charlie, there are other fish in the sea. Dump Claire until she learns how to treat a good, supportive friend correctly.

Kate still doesn't make sense 75% of the time - she seems to be a utility during many parts of the show's event-scenes due to obvious reasons.


Anywho, Carl's cool. I wanna see more of him. By the way, I liked Sawyer in tis episode - nice guy. Kinda illogical in his decision making in regards to letting Carl go, but he did it because he obviously felt for the kid and he didn't want any ties with 'the others' with them because it'd lead them back to them in one way or another (others come to find Carl, for example).

Also, Kate and Sawyer asked Carl a good amount of stuff. Sure, ti wasn't any groundbreaking stuff, but these things would be better explained through actual episodes than simply a guy answering questions.
Are there other boats?
Yes.

Well, that's fun. I do understand 100% what you guys mean, though, and I'm in the same boat as you (you'd know this if you've come by any of my more 'anti-plot device' posts), but this episode really wasn't that bad.
Sure, the characters made some decisions that closed off spoiler-dialogue temporarily (letting Carl go, for example), but this episode covered up and made sense of these dicisions FAR BETTER than any other LOST episode by far.
You're lucky Kate asked why Sawyer let Carl go. In any previous LOST episode, Kate would've just looked at Sawyer funny and wouldn't have said a darned thing.

Hopefully, this is progress. The writers are learning.

But what is wrong with Sawyer taking 20 minutes to ask Karl more questions before letting him go. Karl was freely answering and Sawyer would still be taking the high road.

That would have made much more sense: "Carl, while I've got you here..."

Because the writer's have poetic lisence, meaning, for the sake of the plot and character development and progression, they can bend logic. Heck, what they did here wasn't really too big of a deal and, since it was Sawyer's decision, it made a pretty decent amount of sense. He doesn't really care all that much about what exactly is going on, he just wants out. If it was Locke or Sayid, I'm sure we would've seen a different approach to questioning Carl.

Either way, even is Sawyer did care (even though he didn't during this scene since he's emotionally charged right now), the writer's will make Carl 'leave the picture frame' for the time being because he is not to be used as an information database (not yet).

Anywho, if Carl told you everything about the others, it'd be an uncreative and uncoclusive way of giving us information. It'd be a 'deuex machina' way for the writers to give the viewers information. Would this not be worse?

Also, as I said, the way the writers handled these things was spectacular, especially for Lost. Things like this can be unfortunate (in literature, they always are), but they were handled very well in this episode.

He didn't just "let him go", he pretty much showed him the door. The thing is, there was no way for Sawyer and Kate to force Karl to come back to camp with them. I mean, he could have left while they were sleeping.

I was smiling my arse off when Jack was talking to Tom about 'what kind of people he thinks they are'. Great dialogue.

Yes, that was the highlight of the episode for me. I thought a lot of the dialogue was stilted and forced, but it was nice to hear Jack say what we're all thinking.

I think he sensed that Karl didn't know much more than he told them about Hydra and Otherville already. After all, he and Alex weren't quite adults yet. Suppose he knew something about crime and punishment among the Others (from personal experience and past observation).
From clues in their conversation, though, Sawyer could reasonably guess that Karl had lived there a long time, though, maybe all his life. As a teenager, he might not know details, but he's certainly seen and heard much that would be valuable information for the survivors to know. Information that would help them get home.

Ooh...but maybe Sawyer doesn't want to get home anymore. He possibly and Kate certainly are headed to jail the moment they hit civilized shores. The two of them actually now have incentive to make friends with the Others - maybe they'll get a house with a nice backyard, a job on one of the projects, and live out their lives in a tropical paradise instead of Cell Block D. And it's not as if both of them haven't made moral compromises before.

Now that would be an intriguing motivation.


Personally, I wonder if James was afraid that if Karl didn't know what he would be asked, that Locke and Sayid would suspect he was hiding things from them, and the latter would start, well, doing what he did to James, regarding Shannon's inhalers. And from what James had seen of Room 23, Karl had had quite enough torture!
I like this explanation a lot, I wish the script-writers had consulted you! I really wish the writers had given us the merest hint that Sawyer was protecting the kid from Sayid, so I could praise them to the hilt for their subtle delineation of character. Although they still should have asked him some parting questions.

I thought it was good continuity in showing the Sawyer is continuing to act unselfishy. Yes, they probably could've gotten some info about the Others by keeping Karl around... but really, how much do we honestly believe Karl even knows? Sawyer did the right thing by letting the kid choose his own path instead of trying to manipulate him for his own advantage. After all that Kate, Sawyer, and Jack have been through in terms of being used as pawns to accomplish the goals of the Others, I can't believe that anyone would actually think that Sawyer acted wrongly in encouraging Karl to go back to get his girl. Kudos to Sawyer for once in his life not using someone for his own ends -- it shows huge character growth on his part, in my opinion.
I'm not so sure. As I said, it's not like Sawyer could have stopped him from leaving if he'd wanted to anyway. And the only reason he was reluctant was because he thought he'd be killed. He even says so, and Sawyer says something like, "Isn't it worth it?" What a romantic. But is returning to face his people's wrath really what's best for Karl?

Karl was answering questions. Why not take 5 minues and ask:

1) How many of you are there?

2) How well armed are you?

3) How many boats do you have?

4) Can you get off the Island?

5) Why not give us all a better life?

6) What do you guys know about us?

7) Why are you guys such violent a$$holes?


The answer is clear. The writers only want to dole out information a crumb at a time. So who cares if our characters constantly behave in a nonsensical way as long as we don't speed up the glacial pace at which the show is proceeding?

And another thing. I could totally understand if Karl wanted to tell them everything he knows. I could totally understand if Karl didn't want to say anything at all. But why would he talk in cryptic soundbites, except to help the writers tease us?

Totally made sense to me. James wasn't getting any more of Kate with a crying kid around.





signed,
Someone Who Has Two Toddlers in the House

PEOPLE!

We WERE NOT shown Sawyer "letting Karl go" therefore we DO NOT HAVE KNOWLEDGE of what transpired. For all we know now, one of the Others blackmailed Sawyer with a "walk away or we kill Kate" type of thing or else Karl responded to Sawyer about him hanging out with Jack's girlfriend Kate and he stormed off. Both scenarios are within character for Sawyer. I want someone to show me anywhere in the episode where it tells us what Sawyer did with Karl. All we have is the "word" of a conman. Please, have you watched the episode?

Don

Yay! I thought I was the only one bothered by this. I posed this question earlier to Gregg Nations, here (http://thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=70398):

Why, oh, why did Sawyer squander an opportunity to learn as much as possible about the Others and the island from Karl, by instead encouraging the kid to go back for Alex?! Sawyer's certainly not a dumb guy, but what an idiotic move. If I'd been marooned on a mysterious island for three months and finally had the chance to get some real answers about what the hell was going on from someone whose people had been causing a lot of trouble for me and my friends, I sure wouldn't be sitting around giving him relationship advice! I mean, Sawyer was ready to send the guy on his way with nary a peep about the Others' agenda or secrets (beyond that of "You have backyards?"). (OK, I know that it would've been too easy to have Sawyer get all the answers that way, but he could've tried and been denied them, no?)

The whole thing was a little too precious for me. I felt like TPTB thought it was more important to address the relationship stuff in that scene, rather than stick to the integrity of the characters and the story.