Branded a killer...

The Scarlet Letter comes to mind..

I am also thinking she is branded because she went against the Others to begin with....Not just for the death...

Did you notice that her "mark" looked VERY much like the blacklight hatch map that Locke saw?? Very interesting.....

I have a sneaky feeling that mark means more than that--not just as a mark among the others, but in the "real" world as well.

It's ironic that both her and Jack as now marked--one as an outcast and the other meaning something a bit more then an outcast, but along the same lines.

what was the symbol on her back - and was it a burn>

I beleive she was branded...like a cow..

I also thought that...but than who in the real world would know about the branding...She could be a new age person who got branded...

Both deemed outsiders

Both marked

Both excommunicated



ETA: Her tattoo looked like a Star Brand (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Brand), as in Star Brand comics..

At least Jack's is easier to explain when they do get home -

Clearly parallels are being drawn between Juliet and Jack - she's got a bit of the Scarlet Letter on her for sure, branded for life despite her sentence being commuted. Like Jack, she walks among the Others, but she isn't one (any longer that is, not in their minds).

The common-point start (along with science/medical backgrounds) to their journey TOGETHER.

The birth of the friendship/alliance (if not romance, yet) of Jacket.

NICELY DONE!! :clapping:

Then why wouldn't they just send her home -- do you think that if she would have been killed she would just go home --- then she wouldn't have been branded

I beleive she was branded...like a cow..

I also thought that...but than who in the real world would know about the branding...She could be a new age person who got branded...

Well, the thing is, is that we are learning that Dharma had influence in the outside world enough to recruit juliet and have this company exist. We don't really know who else in the real world "is in on it."

To people who don't know what it means, then they will just think it's just another random body art type thing. But...Kinda like in a secret society--if you have that mark, they will know what it means, where it usually is, etc etc.

Did anyone else notice that Juliet's "mark" looks very much like the hatch map that Locke saw in the black light? The mark looks like it has branches with little circles on the ends. If you look at a pic of the hatch map you'll see they look VERY alike.... thoughts?

very true lex....

but how would an outside Other know another Other?...lol...do they memorize each and every picture and than say to them...Oh let me see your back before I talk to you???

Unless Achara, as her name suggests (because it is a Buddhist concept), is part of a Dharma in the real world community, the whole flashback makes no sense literally, even if it works nicely on the symbolic level. I mean, are there secret societies served by mystical tattoo artists who define each member but are forbidden to do so with outsiders? And why does Jack insist, when she's obviously upset and afraid? I mean, it's his usual obsessive stalking behavior, but it seems more pointless than usual.

Poor Des flunked the great man test, but not our Jack.:rolleyes:

Cardie

Did anyone else notice that Juliet's "mark" looks very much like the hatch map that Locke saw in the black light? The mark looks like it has branches with little circles on the ends. If you look at a pic of the hatch map you'll see they look VERY alike.... thoughts?

Didn't get a good look at it, but my first impression was that it was a marijuana leaf design.

I wonder if being "marked" could also be another biblical reference, because I know that there is a passage in the old testament about not marking yourself in reference to tattoos.

cardie...I am lost a out that...and not for nothing if she knew it would bring about dire consequences...than just said forget it and dont do it...
but you cant alter fate and destiny now can we?...lol..ok that is another subject...lol

Unless Achara, as her name suggests (because it is a Buddhist concept), is part of a Dharma in the real world community, the whole flashback makes no sense literally, even if it works nicely on the symbolic level. I mean, are there secret societies served by mystical tattoo artists who define each member but are forbidden to do so with outsiders? And why does Jack insist, when she's obviously upset and afraid? I mean, it's his usual obsessive stalking behavior, but it seems more pointless than usual.

Poor Des flunked the great man test, but not our Jack.:rolleyes:

CardieCardie - the way I saw that scene was he was kind of saying - I'm good enough to sleep with, but not good enough to tattoo? It seemed ceremonial to him, marking another level of their relationship, and to also mark him at becoming an insider... "Inside her" life and her world...

re: the secret branding societies, not sure on that yet.

i wonder if any of the other Others have this mark. it didn't sound like this was the first time an Other has been marked...

I wonder if being "marked" could also be another biblical reference, because I know that there is a passage in the old testament about not marking yourself in reference to tattoos.

Funny, I also thought the marking order sounded kind of Old Testament. Actually, the first thing I thought of was Cain and Abel, another story of brothers in which one was a favored son. Another thing that struck me was that it was her back in particular that was marked. So, does that mean she is a back-stabber? :biggrin:

in the old testament (genesis in fact) right after cain slew abel God put a mark on cain. God cursed him to be a vagabond and a fugitive and the ground would not yield its strength to him.cain found it to hard to bear and thought he would have to hide for people would slay him.but God put this mark on him so he wouldnt for if any slayed him venegence would be taken on him sevenfold.then cain went to live in the land of nod.(genesis 4:8-16)

also there is the mark of the beast metioned in revealation.

onion sandwhichs mention of tatoos i think is referring to people who would tatto the names of the dead on them but i didnt look that up ahead of time so some other fuser will have to do the legwork.

-belwether

The Achara scenes were pretty muddled, but it's interesting to speculate:

1) Achara seemed to use the "Namaste" greeting whever she encountered certain people. Nod to DHARMA? Seems likely.

2) Achara (like Ms. Hawking) has a gift. She can "read" people and interpret who they really are. This is manifested in a tattoo that expresses their essence.

3) Achara seemed to like Jack on a personal level, but was unwilling to reveal too much about herself or get involved too heavily in who he is.

4) Achara was very reluctant to tattoo Jack, but did so anyway.

5) Jack being tattooed upset a fair amount of the locals-with Achara being left in tears.


GIven Isabel's comments, it would appear as if Achara had tattooed Jack in such a way that it's meaning has multiple interpretations-suiting dual purposes. If Isabel is correct in her interpretation, than it would seems his tattoos are prophetic-as his presence with the Others fits the description of being amongst a group of people, but not one of them. Jack was branded, and Isabel was able to identify that.

the mark looked like an elongated asterisk *

Did no one notice the fact that Juliet also had a bandage on the left side of her stomach? When she raised her shirt for Jack to treat her brand? That was what was important, not the brand. She had a bandage in the same spot her sister had the bandage!!

also there is the mark of the beast metioned in revealation.

This is exactly what I thought of when the bible reference was made.

I thought that was her shirt, the edge of her shirt, that you seen when she raised up her shirt and put her hand there. You could be right though. I'll look for the screencap and see.

Yeah I thought the mark looked kind of like an elongated asterisk as well. Very weird looking!

Why mark her in a place that is not readily visible? The Scarlet Letter it's not...

All I know is when it was announced that Juliet was to be marked there was a collective gasp (in particular) from the gathered Others. If legit, Juliet's life was spared, but with serious repurcussions. She's been excommunicated in a way, but I'm not sure how. Perhaps she won't be privy to certain rites or privileges? Maybe she doesn't get the daily dose of vaccine?
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Why mark her in a place that is not readily visible? The Scarlet Letter it's not...

I noticed that as well. Maybe it had to be placed there? I'm curious if it's placement ties in with Ben's surgery? I thought it was interesting that Jack emphasized to Ben that it's possible he might not walk again. What if what's been done to Juliet was an eye for an eye as related to Ben's condition? If he doesn't recover, something happens to her mobility?

I thought that was her shirt, the edge of her shirt, that you seen when she raised up her shirt and put her hand there. You could be right though. I'll look for the screencap and see.

Yeah I thought the mark looked kind of like an elongated asterisk as well. Very weird looking!

Just went back and looked again, it's a bandage. Covered slightly by her right hand.

im not sure if its referring to cains mark or the mark of the beast though i leaned towards the cain one. with lost you never know though but there is a religious undercurrrent.

i wonder if juilet is no longer protected from the smoke monster now.or will be forced into the wilderness as a vagabond/fugitive
-belwether

Obviously the "marking" is more symbolic than pratical. God know it's not necessary to let people know that she's a killer -- their community is small enough that I'm sure everyone is aware of that simply by word of mouth. The real "marking" and the real "scar" is what killing another human does to you psychologically. Juliet know just has a physical manifestation of that. Quite poignant, really. They can be sure now that Juliet will never forget what she did -- and emphasizing someone's feelings of guilt and shame are probably the worst kind of punishment that you can imflict on them.

Obviously the "marking" is more symbolic than pratical. God know it's not necessary to let people know that she's a killer -- their community is small enough that I'm sure everyone is aware of that simply by word of mouth. The real "marking" and the real "scar" is what killing another human does to you psychologically. Juliet know just has a physical manifestation of that. Quite poignant, really. They can be sure now that Juliet will never forget what she did -- and emphasizing someone's feelings of guilt and shame are probably the worst kind of punishment that you can imflict on them.

speaking of practicality. . . a mark on the lower back isn't going to help out a lot of people. Back in the day they marked pirates on their foreheads.

The "mark of the beast" would be quite a stretch, I doubt that is the intention. First, in the Bible, the mark of the beast is required under the rule of the antichrist. It would be a sign of loyalty to the antichrist, and nobody would be able to conduct trade or commerce without it (meaning that the Christian believers, who would refuse the mark, would be the ones cut off and eventually destroyed if refusing the mark.) Second, IIRC, it says the mark would be applied to the forehead or the back of the hand.

I don't get sense that they are drawing any parallels in this case. :) IMO, the whole idea is that she was marked in the general sense, not something so specific. Like the Scarlet Letter mentioned several times in this thread... it's a mark of shame. Possibly considered a fate worse than death among this apparent cult... who knows?

All I know is when it was announced that Juliet was to be marked there was a collective gasp (in particular) from the gathered Others. If legit, Juliet's life was spared, but with serious repurcussions. She's been excommunicated in a way, but I'm not sure how. Perhaps she won't be privy to certain rites or privileges? Maybe she doesn't get the daily dose of vaccine?
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...

It was very destinctive, the gasp. I almost expected her to be branded in a visable place...like in sci-fi movies, or as criminals are. The mark of a brand is usually to get society to shun the person branded, or worse. Now, I'm wondering about the symbolism of that particular brand...a symbol that looks like a star, stars usually signify birth and light...enlightenment. Must be another meaning out there?

Here's a screencap:

http://lost.cubit.net/viewEgg.php?id=227

I wonder if this is Ben's way of making sure even if she does go "home", she'll never be able to forget that she is one of them...

looks to me like and upside down crossed out cross. An x on top of a cross turned upside down, but stylized.

i wonder if Danielle is marked....

Yike, looks like an upside-down crucifixion cross with an 'x' across it, as if being x'd out. Spooky.
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looks to me like and upside down crossed out cross. An x on top of a cross turned upside down, but stylized.
Ok, now I'm really spooked out! :eek2:

Baptism is also often considered the mark of God. Just an FYI

Man, I wish I knew what box my dictionary of Symbols was hiding in. :(

the symbol was weird to me as i have been drawing the x and then drawing a cross over it and i wrote "life over death" and then i basically see the same symbol upside down on juilet. so i took that meaning as well but only because of my own connection to it

-belwether.

Doing some quick and dirty research here are are the possible matching symbols I have found so far. Studying the screen caps closely it looks like there is a dot in the middle of the spokes as well, and hopefully we will see this again after it has healed a bit so we can be certain.


I'll start with the Dharmacakra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dharmacakra), well, you know why. ;)
Looks like it could be this with the top spoke elongated and the rim removed, and oddly enough the rim is meant to refer to mindfulness or samadhi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samadhi) which holds everything together, so without the rim it would all fall apart. Seems to be fitting of the use...


The other possibility I saw was Symbol 30:57 (http://www.symbols.com/encyclopedia/30/3057.html) on Symbols.com, which linked to Symbol 26:46 (http://www.symbols.com/encyclopedia/26/2646.html). There I read about many goddesses of fertility, which seemed linked to the above-mentioned bandage that Juliet has on her stomach.


I dunno, just my thoughts on what I found in 5 min of googleing.

Notice there are eight points to the mark, as there are eight sides on the Dharma logo.

I wonder if she has been subjected to her own injections for a while or if she's being forced to do so now.

I can't believe that no-one has thought of this yet ....

Maybe the mark relates to the smoke monster, perhaps the smoke monster leaves The Others alone but the mark means that she's fair game :eek2:

I'm not buying into her supposed mark. I mean, it was Ben who asked her to go help Jack's friends escape so that Jack would save his life. He TOLD Juliet to go help them! And in return he would send her home... according to what she said to Jack anyway.
So why on earth would he condemn her to death just cause she killed Picket? It just doesn't add up to me and I do NOT trust Juliet in the slightest. It's interesting though, to see how it will play out... But I'm not falling for anything about this "trial." I think it has more to do with manipulating Jack than anything else.

I'm not buying into her supposed mark. I mean, it was Ben who asked her to go help Jack's friends escape so that Jack would save his life. He TOLD Juliet to go help them! And in return he would send her home... according to what she said to Jack anyway.
So why on earth would he condemn her to death just cause she killed Picket? It just doesn't add up to me and I do NOT trust Juliet in the slightest. It's interesting though, to see how it will play out... But I'm not falling for anything about this "trial." I think it has more to do with manipulating Jack than anything else.

I think there is a BIG difference between helping someone and killing someone. If I said hey flashbackfan can you help me out and get some milk from the store I would not expect you to charge into the store, gun down the staff and steal the milk!

Same thing here Ben asked Juliet to help Kate and Sawyer, but not at the expense of Pickett. Further more what are the others going to say if Juliet gets away with killing Pickett

"Jeez, me and Danny been playing poker every thursday for 13 years and now that fancy new doctor Juliet kills him to save those two killers and we do nothing. Danny was a good man and she gets away with nothing, man what happened to Justice and this so called ideal society, this place is going to the dogs..."

I think there is a BIG difference between helping someone and killing someone. If I said hey flashbackfan can you help me out and get some milk from the store I would not expect you to charge into the store, gun down the staff and steal the milk!

Same thing here Ben asked Juliet to help Kate and Sawyer, but not at the expense of Pickett. Further more what are the others going to say if Juliet gets away with killing Pickett

How on earth was Juliet supposed to help Kate and Sawyer get away without killing Pickett? I mean, Ben's no idiot. He must have known how blood thirsty Pickett was about killing Sawyer and I'm sure he could have guessed that the only way Juliet could have stopped him was to take him out. Like I said before, I don't buy it. But I did like your milk analogy Dark Angel. :cool:

Kinda going on what Selene said I was looking for symbols close to the one Juliet had and the closes I have found so far is
http://altreligion.about.com/library/glossary/symbols/bldefsbaptismalcross.htm

which is a baptism cross. It's also interesting to note the link refers to it as also representing a resurrection.

I think everyone is over-anaylising this, when I first saw the mark I immediately thought of the Hydra station's symbol. Since animals where kept there, it also seems likely the animals would have been branded with the same symbol.

http://lostpedia.com/wiki/Image:Hydro_final.png

Seems the wrong way around for that.

Welcome to the forums btw :biggrin:

How on earth was Juliet supposed to help Kate and Sawyer get away without killing Pickett? I mean, Ben's no idiot. He must have known how blood thirsty Pickett was about killing Sawyer and I'm sure he could have guessed that the only way Juliet could have stopped him was to take him out. Like I said before, I don't buy it. But I did like your milk analogy Dark Angel. :cool:

True, but what about the Tazer she used on Sawyer? Or shouting at him to stop and arguing with him. I had a feeling Juliet was looking for an excuse to kill Picket
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I think everyone is over-anaylising this, .

Yeah, we do that a lot here :biggrin:

It would be an interesting twist if, at the end of the day, the whole thing was a con by Juliet. We have only her word as to what Ben said in that OR.

He could have told her "if you help me get Jack into the fold, I'll really let you go". The plan could have been to kill Pickett, parade Juliet as a victim in front of Jack, fake the trial and death sentence, bribe Alex (with Karl's life) to push Jack further, get him to feel sympathetic towards Juliet, allow him to "rescue" her, and then have her manipulate him into becoming one of them.

That said, I'm more leaning towards believing that in this case, a cigar is just a cigar, and the facts are as straightforward as they were presented.

Is anyone else a little upset that when Jack saw Juliette, the first thing out of his mouth wasn't

"What does the mark mean?"

I know I'm preaching to the choir about obvious questions, but come on. Apparantly "the mark" is about one step below the death penalty to the others. It is grave enough that nobody seemed to raise hell, despite the apparantly un-questioned push from the mortal coil that Juliette's crime required.

Yeah, again, I know. They can't give us a morsel without making us want a steak. And, finally, when we get the beef, we realize that it is just the table scraps. Honestly though, I threw my hands up (to a TV show none the less lol) when Jack didn't ask her what the "mark" meant. Rub some aloe on that dude, and it will all be cool.

Although I agree the lack of answers is getting to be too much, I can see how in this scene his focus was on helping her heal and geting her alliance to fight Ben. Perhaps, he'll ask her when they get back to Otherville?

Jack will never ask Juliette any thing important. No one ever does.....these are the most uncurious people ever created. As to the brand........was it the same as on the lecturn in the "court room" when Alex knocked on the door and Isabel came out?

Screen caps anyone?

Jack will never ask Juliette any thing important. No one ever does.....these are the most uncurious people ever created. As to the brand........was it the same as on the lecturn in the "court room" when Alex knocked on the door and Isabel came out?

Screen caps anyone?

The lecturn just had the Hydra log on it, there is a screen cap comparing the mark and logo here http://www.humpys.net/view_pic.php?id=305&season=3

The lecturn just had the Hydra log on it, there is a screen cap comparing the mark and logo here http://www.humpys.net/view_pic.php?id=305&season=3

Many thanks Dark Angel............I didn't have the ability to do that

Marking people seems to set their fate. You can tell that by the reverence that the Others held for "marking" someone and the way that Achara (however you spell it) seemed to know that tatooing Jack was going to cause something bad to happen to him. Whether it was labeling him to be sent to the island or labeling him to be targeted by Smokey, something bad is supposed to happen to Jack, Juliet, and anyone else who is "marked" (which I think we'll start to see a lot more of them in the coming episodes).

Another thing to think of, think about the way Carl treated Sawyer and Kate. It was almost piteous. He said he gave the ones they took a better life then they had, the whole "God loves you like he loved Jacob" thing, and the aire of superiority he had over them. The Others seem to hold themselves higher than the castaways, or to be more specific, those with the "mark". And, now that Juliet has that "mark", she is no longer one of the Others.

Now, I'm not sure how this is all going to play out, whether they all have marks or if it's just Jack and Juliet but, since they're saying we've only got a year and a half worth of shows left, my money's on it meaning something big. TPTB are probably sitting back wondering why we didn't catch a clue to one of the biggest storylines of the show: why the castaways are really on the island.

Jack's mark, though, reads one who walks among us but isn't one of us. I immediately thought of Jesus. Am I off base?

i wonder if Danielle is marked....

Great point Applecrush! I bet she is marked and used to be part of the dharma project. I'll start another thread on this

Jack's mark, though, reads one who walks among us but isn't one of us. I immediately thought of Jesus. Am I off base?

I do not think you are off base. Jack is the "Shepherd" after all.

The "mark of the beast" would be quite a stretch, I doubt that is the intention. First, in the Bible, the mark of the beast is required under the rule of the antichrist. It would be a sign of loyalty to the antichrist, and nobody would be able to conduct trade or commerce without it (meaning that the Christian believers, who would refuse the mark, would be the ones cut off and eventually destroyed if refusing the mark.) Second, IIRC, it says the mark would be applied to the forehead or the back of the hand.

I don't get sense that they are drawing any parallels in this case. :) IMO, the whole idea is that she was marked in the general sense, not something so specific. Like the Scarlet Letter mentioned several times in this thread... it's a mark of shame. Possibly considered a fate worse than death among this apparent cult... who knows?

I agree, in my opinion the Apocalptic texts were a vision brought on by some of that days wacky paste and foretold the ruin of the Roman Empire from a prophet/shaman's point of view. It's not literal, but representational.
I thought of Cain being marked, and think that is more what they were going for, not that I like that any better. I liked the Buddhist Dharma slant instead, a Utopian society being created to save the world or hide from it.
In the old testament to have a tatoo was taboo (a rhyme) because the other tribes or pagans (if you want to call them that) had them for many symbolic or familial reasons. If you are laying down a new law/religion you have to eliminate all outside influence.
I think they went back to basic laws because of some fracture in the first society of the Dharma founders and it had to be something big for them to do this.

I wonder if Karl is marked too...

Hasn't it been said before that Charlie is also "marked"? With a Beatles lyric I believe. Or did I just read that somewhere?

I agree with the allusions to a messianic theme with Jack.

Obviously the tattoo is important to the overall plot, because they dedicated a whole show to it and the marking.

I personally believe the marking on Juliette is a sentence worse than death by the faces on the others when it was read. I immediately thought "she's now susceptible to the smoke monster".

I do not think you are off base. Jack is the "Shepherd" after all.

mmn could be, I don't like either (Jesus and Jack that is ;) )
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In the old testament to have a tatoo was taboo (a rhyme) because the other tribes or pagans (if you want to call them that) had them for many symbolic or familial reasons. .

Hey, I'm Pagan and tattoo free :biggrin:
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Hasn't it been said before that Charlie is also "marked"? With a Beatles lyric I believe. Or did I just read that somewhere?



Charlie (or rather Dom) will have the same elven tattoo that all the main cast of LOTR got

Dark Angel this is 2007 not the same as 4-5000 years ago. Just was trying to say why Judeaic laws are anti tats, beside Juliette sure looks like she was branded.

Dark Angel this is 2007 not the same as 4-5000 years ago. Just was trying to say why Judeaic laws are anti tats, beside Juliette sure looks like she was branded.

Hey, I know and it was a good point, It is the end of a long day here I was just trying to be funny but obviously failed :undecide: :biggrin:

very true lex....

but how would an outside Other know another Other?...lol...do they memorize each and every picture and than say to them...Oh let me see your back before I talk to you???

Ehh...you have a good point there :p It would make more sense if they had branded her on her wrist, or neck or something. The placement of the brand is very interesting. I have a tattoo at that same location, and their are times where you can see it if I am bending over, or wearing low rise pants (but those things annoy me). But other than that, you can't really see it and I think it would be pretty darn forward if someone demanded to see it :p

And as for an other knowing an other? Hmmm. I dunno....how do cult members know each other out of the meetings?

Someone posted this on my yahoo group - the brand looks exactly like this symbol if it were upside down: http://news.scientology.org/img/main_hda.jpg

One thing that bothers me about the mark meaning she's out of the group or whatever, is that right before Ben writes to letter ordering her to be marked, he tells Jack, "It doesn't matter what she's [Juliet] done, no matter what you think, she's one of us."

So why make that statement and 2 seconds later, order her excommunicated from the Others. Doesn't make sense.

Someone posted this on my yahoo group - the brand looks exactly like this symbol if it were upside down: http://news.scientology.org/img/main_hda.jpg


Weird, it does like exactly like that!

I think it is important to note what Jack said about his mark: That may be what it says but that is not what it means. This probably applies to Juliette's as well.

Hmmm, the scientology symbol (or just a crucifix) upside down, an upside down Budda in last weeks episode..I wonder why?

Someone posted this on my yahoo group - the brand looks exactly like this symbol if it were upside down: http://news.scientology.org/img/main_hda.jpg

Well, crosses in that fashion is not exactly rare in any religion that holds the cross in reverence. I was a catholic a good part of my life, and we drew crosses like that so many times, it wasn't even funny :p Now, an upsidedown cross meant something bad....but I get a feeling the mark isn't as obvious as that.

1st thought was the hydra logo sans the octogon

in retrospect having seen the screen shot I recognize my first thoust was WAY wrong.

http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?pos=-16404

No Matter what, you're gonna die Charlie.

If we're going with the upside down cross theory, it could be a St. Peter's Cross and a St. Andrew's Cross. Both of them were crucified but requested to be crucified differently than Jesus was, as they felt they were not worthy to die like Jesus did.

St Peter's Cross: http://www.seiyaku.com/customs/crosses/peter.html
St. Andrew's Cross http://www.seiyaku.com/customs/crosses/andrew.html

http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?pos=-16404

No Matter what, you're gonna die Charlie.


I think you meant to say that

"Charlie is marked....for death"

Well I guess Ben is marked too then.

http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=1256&pos=226

arent we all marked for death?

I dont get the charlie comment...well I do but not in this thread...

Well I guess Ben is marked too then.

http://gallery.lost-media.com/displayimage.php?album=1256&pos=226

Arent they just his surgical scars??

St. Peter was supposedly crucified upside down as a sign of humility. I wonder if Juliet's branding is supposed to reference this somehow

Yes, definitely her shirt. http://www.flickr.com/photos/41161198@N00/?saved=1 scroll up or down and you'll see.

My bad.

...Maybe it had to be placed there? I'm curious if it's placement ties in with Ben's surgery? I thought it was interesting that Jack emphasized to Ben that it's possible he might not walk again. What if what's been done to Juliet was an eye for an eye as related to Ben's condition? If he doesn't recover, something happens to her mobility?

I dont think we should read to much beyond the symbollic aspect of the mark- after all they have no surgeon to perform such a complex procedure.

Yes, definitely her shirt. http://www.flickr.com/photos/41161198@N00/?saved=1 scroll up or down and you'll see.

My bad.

Not working.......just black screens there.

arent we all marked for death?

I dont get the charlie comment...well I do but not in this thread...

Yes, I think we need to stick to Juliette and Jack.

Cause, metaphysically aren't we all marked? (jokingly)

Yes...Oh I know we can make up lots and lots of new thread about each one of us being marked...lol

Back to being marked...I wonder who else is marked...I like the idea that Danielle may also be marked....and I wonder why they would mark someone is a place that no one else would see....

it's been pointed out by others that it is eight lines that can be overlapped on the dharma octagon (eta I dont know why I keep calling it a hexagon duh), so are we back to Buddhism?

like the blue cross/star symbol associated with the medical field
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_of_Life

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ae/Star_of_life.svg/180px-Star_of_life.svg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Star_of_life.svg)

I believe the mark was put there on her back and not somewhere else visible **MOD edited** But that's just my opinion.

Here's a screencap:

http://lost.cubit.net/viewEgg.php?id=227


Random thought after viewing the screencap:

What if the mark represents the island (either by similarity of shape or something) the north axis extended to indicate the settlement of the Others.

What if being marked means NEVER leaving the Island? :eek2:

What if it just is an upside down cross - it means the cross of satan. So perhaps its just is the mark of the devil so to speak. Which maybe in their "religion" on the Island is perhaps worse than death.

In the end, I think all the mark will accomplish is make Juliet an outcast amongst her own "people." It could have some additional significance (such as making her a target of Cerberus), but I won't hold my breath.

I watched the scene where it shows her stomach. It's not a bandage, it's her shirt. It's blue and white striped. It's her shirt. I just watched it again to confirm. He had put his hand on her hip and she kinda pulled her shirt across her stomach so she could touch his hand. And, the shirt is kinda thin. If there was a white bandage on her stomach, you would have seen it when she walked up.

My first thought was it looked similar to Bungie's 7th Column symbol. You can find it by typing in "Halo 2 emblems 7th Column."
As it implies, it only has 7 column, while Juliets has 8.

I apologize in advance if this has been posed already, but was thinking that the episode title is Stranger in a Strange Land. In the book of the same title, a character named Patricia Paiwonski had the life story of Foster (founder of the Church of the New Revelation :) ) tattooed over her body. Her husband was a tattoo artist. (Patricia became a member of the Church of All Worlds).

Wondering about the parallels.

Lots of inking goin' on. :)

To me the mark looked like a large asterick - *. It was elongated at the North, South, East, and West,...giving the mark an appearance of a star, as well.

I think the mark was given to Juliet to identify her as somebody who broke the Ben-others Laws. In the middle ages, people were branded (marked) to identify their crimes. In the Middle East they cut a thief's hand off,...also another form of a mark. Just a guess,...

I've fixed the picture thing, here's the screencap ofher tummy. It is her shirt. Let me know if you have problems seeing it now. http://www.flickr.com/photos/41161198@N00/?saved=1

I don't know if it's just me, but I thought it looked a little like a "falling-pattern." You know, when someone falls out of the sky in comics, there are usually lines whoosh-ing down? Maybe some kind of fallen angel, struck from "God's" (Ben's) presence and cast out?

There are hardly any screencaps up for this episode, but I'm sure I saw Juliette's "mark" on Achara's wall in her tattoo shop.

Didn't get a good look at it, but my first impression was that it was a marijuana leaf design.

LOL. It DOES look like that....or a flame or palm tree.....

It is a big thing tha they had a tribunal and all, eventhough it seemed there was no discussion going to be held, she was guilty and that was that. The Benny gave her the break, I still cant figure out what this symbol reps to them, except like I said maybe she isnt going to be given a funeral or allowed to go up the Karmic ladder in the next life.

Yeah... I don't think she was "cast out" of the others' group per se... they still used her to deliver grilled cheese to Jack... and she is with Jack and Ben on the boat. Altough Ben may just be keeping his enemies close. But it is curious that being "marked" is so undefined here.

Seen on another board -- Juliet's mark is much like an upside down cross of Scientology.


http://altreligion.about.com/library/glossary/symbols/bldefsscientologycross.htm

Seen on another board -- Juliet's mark is much like an upside down cross of Scientology.


http://altreligion.about.com/library/glossary/symbols/bldefsscientologycross.htm

I knew Tom Cruise would have something to do with it!!! JK:biggrin:

It is a big thing tha they had a tribunal and all, eventhough it seemed there was no discussion going to be held, she was guilty and that was that. .

Yeah, but she was caught with the smoking gun so to speak, she was seen by Picketts fellow others shooting him!

Maybe already said -- but it looked like the map of the hatches to me.

Maybe already said -- but it looked like the map of the hatches to me.

I think it is the (inverted) cross of St. Peter which symbolises unworthiness - which would make sense

Could it be that she has been marked as unworthy to have children?

A few thoughts from reading this all.

* I don't think it has anything to do with the smoke monster attacking or not. I'm pretty sure the pilot and Ecko (the only two to be killed by the monster) were not marked, and I think it is a seperate entity from the Others.

* We all assume the Mark is an evil, or bad thing. But, I can't recall hearing anyone outright say she was an Outcast now, or that she was excommunicated, etc. What if the gasps we heard from the gathered Others was not one of dismay, but rather one of awe? What if this mark is a symbol of achievement, or power in their society. What if Ben deemed her worthy of a higher honor, maybe for her great job of manipulating Jack? Food for thought.

* As for what the symbol means, there's a great number, from the different styles of crosses, to its resemblance to stars and other symbols. The first thing I thought of was the North Star, which I have seem symbolized as an eight-pointed star, with the top (or North) being elongated to symbolize its position and significance. Or, it could be yet another Dharma symbol that we just haven't been introduced to yet. Or, it could just be a random design that they thought "looked cool".

A few thoughts from reading this all.

* I don't think it has anything to do with the smoke monster attacking or not. I'm pretty sure the pilot and Ecko (the only two to be killed by the monster) were not marked, and I think it is a seperate entity from the Others.



No, I don't think that you have to have the mark to be attacked by Smokey, what I meant is maybe the others are immune unless they have the mark. However I now think that as I said above the mark makes her unworthy and prevents her from having children (hence it's location) :down: for a lot of people that would be almost as bad as death (me included), especially in a child orientated society which the Others seem to be.

I understand what you mean, but as far as immunity? I would hope it would take more than a brand to stave off that thing!

I think it's simply a mark of having broken the laws of their community, although such branding of criminals is generally done where the community can see it. I guess they didn't want to have to put makeup on EM's hand , neck or face every episode.

Cardie

I understand what you mean, but as far as immunity? I would hope it would take more than a brand to stave off that thing!

I guess it depends on it's level of intelligence, if it is controlled (and by who) and it's intent.

* We all assume the Mark is an evil, or bad thing. But, I can't recall hearing anyone outright say she was an Outcast now, or that she was excommunicated, etc. What if the gasps we heard from the gathered Others was not one of dismay, but rather one of awe? What if this mark is a symbol of achievement, or power in their society. What if Ben deemed her worthy of a higher honor, maybe for her great job of manipulating Jack? Food for thought.

I agree with you, after reading the whole thread I noticed everyone thinks the mark is something bad seen in their community but there's no proof of this

I agree with you, after reading the whole thread I noticed everyone thinks the mark is something bad seen in their community but there's no proof of this

I think the proof would be that if you are put on trial for shooting someone the normal consequence is a punishment and Juliet was scheduled to be put to death. It only Jack's intervention that caused Ben to commute the sentence to the mark.

I don't think even the others would let someone off the death sentence and then give them a badge of honour!

I think there is no doubt that the mark is bad - they branded her! Thats not nice

Yes, definitely her shirt. http://www.flickr.com/photos/41161198@N00/?saved=1 scroll up or down and you'll see.

My bad.

This might be silly but..... your pic reminded me of this one.

http://rjmlam6582.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/handofgod.jpg

From a painting called, The Creation of Adam.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Creation_of_Adam

Hey guys...

I love the idea that the branding could be something good...and I also now agree that it is not a bandage but her shirt and yes it does remind me of the creation of adam....

I am still not sure if I trust Juleitte this minute....

The Black Rock was a slave ship and slaves were always branded for sea journeys. I'm just wondering if the branding iron came from this specific place?

There are hardly any screencaps up for this episode, but I'm sure I saw Juliette's "mark" on Achara's wall in her tattoo shop.
Yes, it is definitely there on the wall above and behind Jack in on the of the shots.

Did you notice that her "mark" looked VERY much like the blacklight hatch map that Locke saw?? Very interesting.....

dang I couldn't find this thread 5 minutes ago, but now that I found it you said exactly what I was thinking

in the old testament (genesis in fact) right after cain slew abel God put a mark on cain. God cursed him to be a vagabond and a fugitive and the ground would not yield its strength to him.cain found it to hard to bear and thought he would have to hide for people would slay him.but God put this mark on him so he wouldnt for if any slayed him venegence would be taken on him sevenfold.then cain went to live in the land of nod.(genesis 4:8-16)


Pretty amazing. Look this 3 numbers, both Lost-numbers. (4 - 8 - 16)

Okay, I read the whole thread before posting this, but I think it is pretty good. I googled Dharma and Achara and mark and this is what I found.

The mark of Dharma is Achara, or good conduct. Achara is the mark of the good. From Achara is Dharma born. Dharma enhances life

excerpt from All About Hinduism by Sri Swami Sivananda

Yes, it is definitely there on the wall above and behind Jack in on the of the shots.Link to a screenshot please!!

It seems to me the mark isn't needed to identify Juliet within the Others. The community isn't that large and word of what she's done will probably get out.

I think there may be something to the northstar / hatch map theories. Perhaps the extended vertical is symbolic of how the Others leave the Island, either a real exit or straight up, to the big hatch in the sky.

The most strange thing of this mark is the place. You can only see the mark if she wanna show to somebody, like she did with Jack.

Perhaps Juliet is marked so the island won't kill her. Alex mentions the eye for an eye code the Other live by. Charlie may be destined to die because he killed Ethan and with Juliet killing Pickett, that may put her on the island's list to carry out the eye for an eye coda. But this mark will tell the island to leave her alone.

Okay, I read the whole thread before posting this, but I think it is pretty good. I googled Dharma and Achara and mark and this is what I found.

The mark of Dharma is Achara, or good conduct. Achara is the mark of the good. From Achara is Dharma born. Dharma enhances life

excerpt from All About Hinduism by Sri Swami Sivananda
Wasn't Achara the NAME of the person who Tattooed Jack?
So that would apply to her, yes?...not the brand on Juliet.

Perhaps Juliet is marked so the island won't kill her. Alex mentions the eye for an eye code the Other live by. Charlie may be destined to die because he killed Ethan and with Juliet killing Pickett, that may put her on the island's list to carry out the eye for an eye coda. But this mark will tell the island to leave her alone.
I figured the mark was a punishment, a form of humiliation, and not much more (assuming the whole episode wasn't just the Others' continuing manipulation of Jack.) However, I find your point interesting, Bono... What if the "eye for an eye" system isn't just the law of the Others, but the code of the Island? Just thinking who we've seen murdered... (appearances are) Scott was murdered by Ethan, who is shot by Charlie, who is now marked for death. Eko kills two of the Others, is later killed by Smokey. Nathan killed by Goodwin, who is killed by Ana Lucia, who is shot by Michael (who, if this is correct, is damn lucky to be away on that boat right now.) Of course, this would also put Sun at risk right now. That could play into a larger theme... interesting.

Link to a screenshot please!!Sorry, I don't have the capability to do video capture at this point. Perhaps it's up at Lost Media?

@addicted to lost

The mark can't be protection unless only Ben knows that. She wasn't to be killed but she would be marked - is how they put it. If it was your interpretation I think they would have said more like - She wasn't to be killed so she would need to be marked.

-just my 2 cents

I took screencaps of Jack in Achara's lair, and didn't see any symbol that resembles Juliet's, you guys be the judge. Or if someone can pinpoint the scene, I can look again, but I watched in slow motion from Jack's entrance to the tattoing and didn't see it.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/41161198@N00/?saved=1

THey guys

he mark was a Star. Stars were mentioned throughout the epi (Jacks 5 star tattoo, Karls stars)

The mark meant--she walks among us but is not one of us--the same as Jacks Tattoo

Thats what it says..but not what it meant. The writers were using the theme of Leadership. Jack the only worthy Leader of the losties. Juilet the only worthy Leader of the Others.(foreshadowed in the Portland epi) Both leaders carry their leadership mark

The others think they marked her as an outsider--but just as Jacks tattoo really meant he was a leader----Juilets mark will serve as the brand of the One who set out to change the others horrible methods--so she will eventually be the Leader.

Jack said they will work together now and at the end of the epi they both at the same stars that.Karl and Alex were.

It was a theme ..not a mystery.

The mark was a Star. Stars were mentioned throughout the epi (Jacks 5 star tattoo, Karls stars)

The mark meant--she walks among us but is not one of us--the same as Jacks Tattoo

Thats what it says..but not what it meant. The writers were using the theme of Leadership. Jack the only worthy Leader of the losties. Juilet the only worthy Leader of the Others.(foreshadowed in the Portland epi) Both leaders carry their leadership mark

Jack said they will work together now and at the end of the epi they both at the same stars that.Karl and Alex were.

It was a theme ..not a mystery.
Oooooh...I like this type of "hidden" symbolism.
"Reach for the Stars"

While perhaps not what the Others intended Juliet's brand to mean, nor what Achara meant when she tatoo's Jack, it could be the actual result of their respective "Marks". :thumbsup:

thanks alinebrz i didnt even notice the scripture numbers as the lost numbers .i just wanted to get that info out there for people to consider. those 8 (!) scriptures encapaslated what i was paraphrasing and wanted to show where i got it from. but nice catch as i hadnt noticed:)-belwether

I have no idea if the mark is a symbol with a valid meaning. However in a small community a visible mark is not needed to identify her as a transgressor. I think that because the mark is in a hidden location, its main purpose is to serve as a constant reminder to her of what she has done. A psychological long term continuation of her punishment.

Is it just me or dose anybody else think that her "mark" was similar to the Mark of Cain?

The episode was clearly meant to draw paralells between Jack's "marking" - the tatoo - and Juliet's marking. I think, whereas Jack's tatoo symbolizes his being an outsider, Juliet's marking symbolizes her inclusion in the group and her longing to leave.

But we all know Jack's tatoo has another "meaning", maybe having something to do with leadership, lonliness, anger, etc... So I think Juliet's marking has another meaning too, I just don't know what it is...

I think it's important to think about what would have happened with Juliet had she not killed Pickett. Maybe Pickett would have killed Kate, and then Jack would have killed Ben, and Juliet therefore wouldn't have been able to go home.... but at least she wouldn't be facing execution!!! I think this illustrates just how desperate she really is to go home.

One last thing - Jack's tatoos actually don't say "he walks amongst us but he is not one of us" they actually say something like "flying bird" or "bird that cuts air" which is a line from a Mao poem. TPTB had to know that we'd realize this, does anybody think there's a hidden message here??

ETA: Her tattoo looked like a Star Brand (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Brand), as in Star Brand comics..

Or like the Butthole Surfers' logo. But I doubt if either comparison bears further discussion...

- mnw

Or like the Butthole Surfers' logo. But I doubt if either comparison bears further discussion...

- mnw
Very witty. However, by quoting it - you're discussing it further..... :rolleyes:

Oooooh...I like this type of "hidden" symbolism.
"Reach for the Stars"

While perhaps not what the Others intended Juliet's brand to mean, nor what Achara meant when she tatoo's Jack, it could be the actual result of their respective "Marks". :thumbsup:

To add to this, wasn't there a shot of Jack on the bigger boat looking up at the stars with Juliette?

I have no idea if the mark is a symbol with a valid meaning. However in a small community a visible mark is not needed to identify her as a transgressor. I think that because the mark is in a hidden location, its main purpose is to serve as a constant reminder to her of what she has done. A psychological long term continuation of her punishment.

As always, Fogey put's it out there.:cool: I totally agree. The mark is there for her and her entire future.

Why put the mark on her back? Maybe so the writers can show that additional members of the Others have received marks whenever it would suit the plot. We might see Danielle or Karl with a mark sometime in the future.

You would expect a mark to be more visible but in a closed society it doesn't really matter. Everyone knows Juliet has been branded, having a visible mark is not necessary.

I believe she was injected with something, perhaps altering her unable to bare children.

Coming into the discussion a little late so pardon any redundant remarks - I saw the 'mark' on Juliet as being both similar and symbolic of the incision area on Ben. I've seen some of the discussion about the X with the vertical line being representative of various things, but I saw the vertical line as the incision on Ben being the primary factor with the X overlaying it - no 'bad' surgery allowed. Simple explanation for a simple mind...

Oldwiz

When Isabel first said "marked" I thought of "In the Penal Colony" by Kafka. Those condemed to die were put into a machine where their crime was written in script into their body until they died.

After seeing the mark I was relieved.

Perhaps this marking is for Jacob. Those who are marked are treated differently. Perhaps those who are marked cannot enter the realm where Jacob is, similar to the entry to heaven. We really don't know much about the relationship between the Others and Jacob. Jacob may not be an "Other" but something entirely different.

I took screencaps of Jack in Achara's lair, and didn't see any symbol that resembles Juliet's, you guys be the judge. Or if someone can pinpoint the scene, I can look again, but I watched in slow motion from Jack's entrance to the tattoing and didn't see it.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/41161198@N00/?saved=1
It's the first photo on your page. Up above Jack's shoulder.

Is it just me or dose anybody else think that her "mark" was similar to the Mark of Cain?

Interesting... If the Creators of Lost had this link in mind when they wrote that into the script, I would not be totally surprised. However, although initially there is the connection between the Mark of Cain (which was as a result of a murder), and Juliet's mark (which was also as a result of a killing or murder), there really are not a lot of other similarities between those two things, in my opinion...

For those not familiar with the story, Cain killed Abel, his brother, in the Book of Genesis. As punishment for this first murder in mankind's history, God placed a Mark on Cain so that all would know him, and know he was a murderer.

Now, what exactly was this Mark? There are several ideas about what it is since the text in the Bible is not clear about this, and each of these theories is supported by various groups of people:

1) The Kenites. This is an ethnic group of people who lived in the southern part of present-day Israel. Their name in Hebrew is qayin, which is also the Hebrew word for Spear, and Cain. In other words, qayin means all three of those things. So some biblical scholars believe that the Kenites were thought by ancient Hebrews to be descendants of Cain. Although this really doesn't tell us much about what the Mark of Cain would be, it does give us an insight perhaps into the whole basis for the story of Cain. There were several other ethnic groups living around the ancient Hebrews who had legends about their origins in the early books of the Bible, and so perhaps the story of Cain being marked was a way for the Hebrews to distinguish themselves as being different from their neighbors the Kenites, whom they possibly thought of as being descendants of Cain. This would give the Hebrews a superiority to the Kenites, which is also a theme that occurs with other ethnic groups and the Hebrews in the Bible.

2) A certain medieval Jewish scholar named Rashi concluded that the Mark of Cain was that he was given either one or a pair of horns on his head. This theme is seen in many of the historical paintings and woodcuts that portray Cain as having horns.

3) The Mark of Cain was seen by some as being given black skin. Most Protestant Christian religions in the 17th and 18th Centuries actually embraced this idea. Some went so far as to say that the black African races were descendants of Cain, and used this to justify their enslavement. There still are some White Supremacist groups who believe this. The Mormon Church used to deny Black members from holding the priesthood due to its support of this idea that the Blacks were cursed as a result of having the Mark of Cain (black skin color). The Mormon Church changed its policy in 1979, but has never officially rescinded its doctrine about Blacks carrying the Mark of Cain, even though many Black Mormons have asked that it be done.

4) Some modern-day Protestants believe that the Mark of Cain was that God did not curse Cain, but rather just acknowledged what was apparent: that Cain had killed his brother, and as a result: "'Now you are cursed". This would mean that Cain would be karmically accountable for what he had done, and would carry the burden of his guilt for the rest of his life. Most modern Protestants have changed their beliefs of previous centuries to where they do not believe that the Mark of Cain was applied to any of his posterity (if he had any at all, even), but rather just to himself.

5) There are some modern day Anti Semitic groups (not to be confused with White Supremacists) who believe that the Mark of Cain applies specifically to the Jewish people, who inherited this curse because they crucified Jesus. They believe that the Mark of Cain means that he was to roam the earth - that he would never have a home anywhere - and that this is why the Jewish Diaspora occurred soon after the crucifixion of Jesus.

Here's a Wiki article about all this, if anyone is interested:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curse_and_mark_of_Cain

I have a sneaky feeling that mark means more than that--not just as a mark among the others, but in the "real" world as well.

It's ironic that both her and Jack as now marked--one as an outcast and the other meaning something a bit more then an outcast, but along the same lines.

Very good point. I didn't think of that. Thanks.
100%
Interesting... If the Creators of Lost had this link in mind when they wrote that into the script, I would not be totally surprised. However, although initially there is the connection between the Mark of Cain (which was as a result of a murder), and Juliet's mark (which was also as a result of a killing or murder), there really are not a lot of other similarities between those two things, in my opinion...

For those not familiar with the story, Cain killed Abel, his brother, in the Book of Genesis. As punishment for this first murder in mankind's history, God placed a Mark on Cain so that all would know him, and know he was a murderer.

Now, what exactly was this Mark? There are several ideas about what it is since the text in the Bible is not clear about this, and each of these theories is supported by various groups of people:

1) The Kenites. This is an ethnic group of people who lived in the southern part of present-day Israel. Their name in Hebrew is qayin, which is also the Hebrew word for Spear, and Cain. In other words, qayin means all three of those things. So some biblical scholars believe that the Kenites were thought by ancient Hebrews to be descendants of Cain. Although this really doesn't tell us much about what the Mark of Cain would be, it does give us an insight perhaps into the whole basis for the story of Cain. There were several other ethnic groups living around the ancient Hebrews who had legends about their origins in the early books of the Bible, and so perhaps the story of Cain being marked was a way for the Hebrews to distinguish themselves as being different from their neighbors the Kenites, whom they possibly thought of as being descendants of Cain. This would give the Hebrews a superiority to the Kenites, which is also a theme that occurs with other ethnic groups and the Hebrews in the Bible.

2) A certain medieval Jewish scholar named Rashi concluded that the Mark of Cain was that he was given either one or a pair of horns on his head. This theme is seen in many of the historical paintings and woodcuts that portray Cain as having horns.

3) The Mark of Cain was seen by some as being given black skin. Most Protestant Christian religions in the 17th and 18th Centuries actually embraced this idea. Some went so far as to say that the black African races were descendants of Cain, and used this to justify their enslavement. There still are some White Supremacist groups who believe this. The Mormon Church used to deny Black members from holding the priesthood due to its support of this idea that the Blacks were cursed as a result of having the Mark of Cain (black skin color). The Mormon Church changed its policy in 1979, but has never officially rescinded its doctrine about Blacks carrying the Mark of Cain, even though many Black Mormons have asked that it be done.

4) Some modern-day Protestants believe that the Mark of Cain was that God did not curse Cain, but rather just acknowledged what was apparent: that Cain had killed his brother, and as a result: "'Now you are cursed". This would mean that Cain would be karmically accountable for what he had done, and would carry the burden of his guilt for the rest of his life. Most modern Protestants have changed their beliefs of previous centuries to where they do not believe that the Mark of Cain was applied to any of his posterity (if he had any at all, even), but rather just to himself.

5) There are some modern day Anti Semitic groups (not to be confused with White Supremacists) who believe that the Mark of Cain applies specifically to the Jewish people, who inherited this curse because they crucified Jesus. They believe that the Mark of Cain means that he was to roam the earth - that he would never have a home anywhere - and that this is why the Jewish Diaspora occurred soon after the crucifixion of Jesus.

Here's a Wiki article about all this, if anyone is interested:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curse_and_mark_of_Cain

In one Podcast they talk about the great stories of Scripture and that they borrow ideas from it. I wouldn't be surprised if this is one of them. It is also interesting that Tom talked about throwing stones in glass houses type of term which is similar to casting the first stone. Meaning to Jack, that they may be no better than the Others. Nevertheless, interesting point and followup.

I personally believe the marking on Juliette is a sentence worse than death by the faces on the others when it was read.

Couldn’t the Others' reaction just be because it is so obviously painful? Also dangerous and susceptible to infection, given their lack of ability to get medical care and supplies. Getting a brand like that would be pretty horrific when you’re stuck on an island with barely any medical supplies but a leaf.

This is the character "da" and it means big, or great. It's a really common word, but also there could be a connection b/c of the "lonely leader" thing.

Juliet's branding on her back looks exactly like the heart/center of the digging machines in the Matrix. I was just watching the movie and it's crazy how so many things remond me of Lost.

scroll down to wheel (http://www.crossroad.to/Books/symbols1.html#el)

It is alphabetical. The "Wheel of Dharma" doesn't look exactly like Juliet's mark, but it's awfully close.

Hey that's pretty darn close

Hey that's pretty darn close


I thought is was interesting.

Coming into the discussion a little late so pardon any redundant remarks - I saw the 'mark' on Juliet as being both similar and symbolic of the incision area on Ben. I've seen some of the discussion about the X with the vertical line being representative of various things, but I saw the vertical line as the incision on Ben being the primary factor with the X overlaying it - no 'bad' surgery allowed. Simple explanation for a simple mind...
Oldwiz

You beat me to it, Wiz. I was just reviewing to see if anyone had posted this.
I missed the connection the first watch but in a rewatch, it jumps right out at you when you see Ben's back. I think that's the reason for the placement - an eye for an eye so to speak: a permanent record that she plotted to have Ben killed during his back surgery.

At least Jack's is easier to explain when they do get home -
"Dear Sis,

Sorry I haven't written in soooo long. But, well...you see... it's like this. I was on this island right, with, like, all these weird dudes and, like, a monster, yeah. Anyway, like, these weird dudes, they had like this thing, against, you know, killing them... I know, right? How five minutes ago is that? Like murder is wrong? Cain and Abel, that happened, like, forever ago! Please, spare me.

Anyway, I killed one of them then I tried to kill their leader and they were...get this...upset! Yeah, I know, right? So they like branded me, like I'm a cow or something! I'm no cow, I'm hot right? I knowEdmund dumped me for that slag and all, but still... I'm hot right?

But seriously, these dudes just couldn't let bygones be bygones. Oh, yeah, I almost forgot, I think maybe kinda-sorta the world's going to end. Hugs and Kisses.

-Love, Juliet"
100%
You beat me to it, Wiz. I was just reviewing to see if anyone had posted this.
I missed the connection the first watch but in a rewatch, it jumps right out at you when you see Ben's back. I think that's the reason for the placement - an eye for an eye so to speak: a permanent record that she plotted to have Ben killed during his back surgery.An X with a line through it brings to mind two things:

The symbol for chaos.

and

Kurt Vonnegut's drawing of a sphinchter in Breakfast of Champions. Those literay references just keep coming!
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scroll down to wheel (http://www.crossroad.to/Books/symbols1.html#el)

It is alphabetical. The "Wheel of Dharma" doesn't look exactly like Juliet's mark, but it's awfully close.You mean the six good incarnations and the six bad incarnations?

Who gets to be the Hungry Ghost then?

I wonder if this is Ben's way of making sure even if she does go "home", she'll never be able to forget that she is one of them...

I don't know what the symbolic meaning behind the "mark" was.

But I believe part of why Benry decided to have Juliet "marked" was to show her that he was still in control, and that he is onto whatever agenda she has.

And as you said, if Juliet gets to leave the island someday, she'll have to live with the that permanent physical aberration as a literal scar reminding her of what she did and that she betrayed her people.

The most strange thing of this mark is the place.

We may have seen a clue in TMTH.
There was a statuette in Ben's place that represents the Hindu deity Ganesha (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ganesha).
Ganesha is associated with the chakra located at the base of the spine (http://www.tantra-kundalini.com/muladhara.htm).

Richard Alpert's reappearance in this episode also supports the Hindu connection. The real life Richard Alpert become famous as Ram Dass (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ram_Dass) after he turned from way-out scientific experiments to Hindu spiritualism.

Great job Sheba!

After last weeks epi I have to wonder who else has the mark

Someone may have already mentioned this but if not then here goes. The mark on her back looks like the star decoration that's on the wall behind Alvar Hanso on The Lost Experience video where he explians the numbers. I'm sure the decoration symbolizes something else that's been mentioned earlier.

This could be the Baptismal Cross. http://www.seiyaku.com/customs/crosses/baptismal.html

The text reads:

The Baptismal Cross is a Greek Cross superimposed on an 'X' (Greek: chi). This chi is the first letter of the Greek word for Christ. It was used in ancient Egypt as a symbol of the Ogdoad, the primeval forces of chaos in Egyptian mythology, represented as eight deities which existed before the creation of the sun god.

In Catholicism, the eight arms represent both the age of baptism in the church (eight years), and the eight days between Christ's entry into Jerusalem and his resurrection.

Eight symbolises regeneration for many religious ideas. Eight is the holistic number in Buddhism for the number of steps to end suffering. The number 8, like the symbol for infinity is a never-ending line. Tracing the shape of the 8 differs from the circle, square, triangle etc. in that the line crosses itself in the centre. This crossing symbolises death. But the line does not stop there; it carries on into a new life, just as the Christian cross symbolises new life. The eight therefore represents life, death, and rebirth. Therefore this cross is symbolic of rebirth or regeneration and often used as a baptismal cross. For the same reason, a baptismal font is often octagonal.

This cross is also used as a symbol for Neo-Gnosticism.

I thought this was very interesting