Wow that made no sense at all. Not only did they beat him up for no reason but his dumb girlfriend just stood there crying. LAME! if anyone can tell me why they beat him up I'd love to know

Yeah, that really left me confused as well. Anybody?

There's something about Achara and her "gift" .. I guess she has to be very perticular on who she is tattooing. She wasn't supposed to give Jack a tattoo. It kind of reminded me of Claire and her psychic reading.. he did not want to give her a reading.

I kind of though the girls brother was just being overprotective and trying to get Jack to go away, but that doesn't fit because they check his tattoo before they start beating on him. Kinda lame that they couldn't wrap the tattoo mystery up in one episode, knowing that they'll probably never go back to the subject.

I kind of though the girls brother was just being overprotective and trying to get Jack to go away, but that doesn't fit because they check his tattoo before they start beating on him. Kinda lame that they couldn't wrap the tattoo mystery up in one episode, knowing that they'll probably never go back to the subject.

exactly the story was lame enuf that I don't want to see anouther flashback about it. But I want to know the answer.Why don't they just tell us during a podcast I can live with that

Jack acted like a western imperialist, not content with the natives' friendliness, he forced Achara to endow him with her people's indigenous mojo/magic. Just my guess.

Jack got beat up because he forced himself into a part of their culture where he didn't belong.

I'm terrible at remembering exact words but basically Achara told Jack that she couldn't tattoo him because it went against her culture. Jack insisted. She said there would be consequences. Jack said there are always consequences --meaning do it anyway. The consequence was the beating. Achara tried to warn him. He didn't listen.

Honestly, knowing how it is with some cultures, I was very worried they would beat her, too. I guess her consequences will be different... :(

jack was acting totally out of character, him demanding the tattoo makes as much sense as the 98 pound weeklings that beat him up for no reason

Wow that made no sense at all. Not only did they beat him up for no reason but his dumb girlfriend just stood there crying. LAME! if anyone can tell me why they beat him up I'd love to know

I am not sure if the concept, as far as Thialand goes, is for real, or if its for theatrical purposes, but this could be a tribal issue.

Some Hawaiian native tribes of old, as well as the tribes indiginous to New Zealand, and many South Pacific tribes consider tattooing a family heritage imprinted on one's body. It is very specific to a persons' position in the society, their family heritage, their personality and accomplishements in life...it is their identity. If you just google Mauri or tribal tattooing, I am sure you will find some sites on the Mauris' objections to non tribal people getting tattooed.

Jack got beat up because he forced himself into a part of their culture where he didn't belong.

I'm terrible at remembering exact words but basically Achara told Jack that she couldn't tattoo him because it went against her culture. Jack insisted. She said there would be consequences. Jack said there are always consequences --meaning do it anyway. The consequence was the beating. Achara tried to warn him. He didn't listen.

Honestly, knowing how it is with some cultures, I was very worried they would beat her, too. I guess her consequences will be different... :(

Well, I think that was part of the tie-in between the flashbacks and the island story. We're being given glimpses of the Others' "culture." Again, Jack interfered in something that he didn't understand on the island, just like he did in Phuket. Who knows what the consequences were for Achara. He never asked if he would be the one to pay them, or if she would. He didn't seem to care what the consequences might be for her. If something bad will happen to her, then it seems logical that her brother might take it upon himself to punish Jack.

Some Hawaiian native tribes of old, as well as the tribes indiginous to New Zealand, and many South Pacific tribes consider tattooing a family heritage imprinted on one's body. It is very specific to a persons' position in the society, their family heritage, their personality and accomplishements in life...it is their identity. If you just google Mauri or tribal tattooing, I am sure you will find some sites on the Mauris' objections to non tribal people getting tattooed.

Huh, interesting. Thanks for the info! :smile:

Yeah, the beating was obviously the consequence for getting the tattoo against the girl's wishes. I just wish they would have told us for sure why it was so wrong for him to get them... it didn't really make sense to me either.

Jack got beat up because he forced himself into a part of their culture where he didn't belong.

I'm terrible at remembering exact words but basically Achara told Jack that she couldn't tattoo him because it went against her culture. Jack insisted. She said there would be consequences. Jack said there are always consequences --meaning do it anyway. The consequence was the beating. Achara tried to warn him. He didn't listen.

Honestly, knowing how it is with some cultures, I was very worried they would beat her, too. I guess her consequences will be different... :(

I also got the feeling the writers were trying to make Jack kind of Sawyer-like in a way. Not the whole character, just his fatalism and seeming desire to be punished.

It reminded me of when Sawyer was tortured. He pretty much invited it, begged for it. Much like Jack did tonight. "There will be consequences" Great! Bring 'em on! Then he got the crap kicked out of him.

Yep. The beating was confusing -- not mysterious in that Lost kind of way we've we've grown to love. It was just plain confusing. Another brick in this bad episode.

Jack said there are always consequences --meaning do it anyway. The consequence was the beating.
Oh, I suspect that the beating is only the first--and possibly, the mildest--of the consequences Jack will experience from being "marked."

She told him (Jack) It was against her Culture for her to tatoo him
Then she put's a Tatoo on him that States
"He walks among us but he is not one of us"
I think that is why they were telling him to leave.

Oh, I suspect that the beating is only the first--and possibly, the mildest--of the consequences Jack will experience from being "marked."
I agree. I think it's implied the consequences may well reverberate beyond that time in Phuket...

Why did the guys on the beach beat up Jack and the kid walk away? What the heck did he do wrong? She said there would be consequences to his tattoos, but did she mean getting the crap beat out of him?

Save the Human and one7, what do you mean by that? You think being 'marked' the way he was as a leader and great man is like a 'martyr' death sentence?

One can only hope. Better him than me, because I feel like I may not survive another snooze-fest like this one. :drowsy:

Save the Human and one7, what do you mean by that? You think being 'marked' the way he was as a leader and great man is like a 'martyr' death sentence?
I think at this point, I just assume everything points to something, heh... ;) It's just that so many of the things we see on this show have an immediate purpose, but are also suggestive of larger themes or future implications.

Actually, it could very well tie into the themes of faith and fate, with the island and all. It could play in many ways... was he destined to crash on the island? Will he join the others? Could he end up leading the others?

I've had the sense for some time, and this is just my opinion, that Jack will end up being some kind of messiah figure, that in the end he may likely sacrifice himself to save the remaining castaways, or to ensure their return home. It's just a feeling, though... I don't think we've gotten any evidence of this. Just my imagination...

Oh, I suspect that the beating is only the first--and possibly, the mildest--of the consequences Jack will experience from being "marked."
I agree. I think it's implied the consequences may well reverberate beyond that time in Phuket...

How about crashing on an island and becomig the de facto leader? I'd say that might be a consequence. First one that came to my mind, anyway.

This might come off a bit racist, but...

The sheriff's interpretation of the tattoo is how I see non-Samoan, non-Hawaiian and non-Maori (etc) people with Samoan, Hawaiian or Maori tribal tattoos: you're not one of them, therefore you shouldn't have the tattoo (unless you received permission to get it and it was specifically designed for you). Just because you have the tattoo (especially without permission) doesn't mean you should be accepted by them or that you should expect them to be OK with you having it.

And that's why I wasn't surprised when Jack got beat up. He was not only being disrespectful to Achara, but to her culture as well.

^ Yeah, I took it the same way. A cultural exclusion thing... but also because it was the guy's sister... It may have been more to it, but that's what I got from it.

Then why did she do the tattoo in the first place? She didn't have to do one with cultural significance. I mean, really, it was up to her what tattoo she gave him. I don't think the fact that she was the guy's sister had anything to do with it. They had been together for awhile, and she had said earlier that her brother liked him.

i agree they beat him up in part because they felt he was mocking their culture in some way by getting that tattoo. but i also think (they believe at least) the tattoo has some power. the kid was scared of jack. the girl said there would be consequences (i suspect more than getting beat up) and they wanted him off the island right away. also, why would people pay her so much money for the tattoos and why would she keep it a secret? she said the tattoo defines people. that's a pretty powerful effect.

Well only time will tell whether there's a spirtual/supernatural edge to the tat. I hope it will anyway!

If Jack was beat up because his action of getting a tattoo offended the local culture, I have a problem. Isn't violence wrong under any circumstances? Are the local "brothers" justified in whomping the crap outta some strange and random white guy who had the balls (but, apparently not "the stones") to get a (OMG!) tatoo on his arm?

Turn the other cheek and all that...

This made no sense... at least as far as we know. Maybe the writers will illucidate somehwere on down the road.

Then why did she do the tattoo in the first place? She didn't have to do one with cultural significance. I mean, really, it was up to her what tattoo she gave him. I don't think the fact that she was the guy's sister had anything to do with it. They had been together for awhile, and she had said earlier that her brother liked him.

She gave him that tattoo, because she was afraid of him,and afraid of what he might do to her, if she didn't give him the tattoo. Jack was very aggressive when demanding the tattoo. he was actually very frightening. Why was the tattoo so important to Jack? What did she see/know about Jack? I got the impression that Jack might have been harboring a big secret, and he was afraid that she knew it.

Being discussed here:
http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=70233

The thing that bugged me about it was the fact that 23% of that country has AIDS and a doctor (Jack) would just walk in to a building there and let her tattoo him with a stick and a open bowl of stagnent tattoo ink. His actions don't necessarily categorize Jack as being too brilliant.

i agree they beat him up in part because they felt he was mocking their culture in some way by getting that tattoo. but i also think (they believe at least) the tattoo has some power. the kid was scared of jack. the girl said there would be consequences (i suspect more than getting beat up) and they wanted him off the island right away. also, why would people pay her so much money for the tattoos and why would she keep it a secret? she said the tattoo defines people. that's a pretty powerful effect.

His tattoo superpower is it makes him really good at poker.

I believe it was a custom only for people of the country. For an outsider to get one wasn't just disrespectful to them but against the rules. Poor Jack getting beat up,
well it's time someone else had a turn and gave Sawyer a break!

Perhaps Jack got "beat up" because as Isabel said the language is very complex. Perhaps the translation to the men on the beachmeant something to them that we are not yet privy to. Maybe it "marked" him as something abhorent to them?

I am not sure if the concept, as far as Thialand goes, is for real, or if its for theatrical purposes, but this could be a tribal issue.

Some Hawaiian native tribes of old, as well as the tribes indiginous to New Zealand, and many South Pacific tribes consider tattooing a family heritage imprinted on one's body. It is very specific to a persons' position in the society, their family heritage, their personality and accomplishements in life...it is their identity. If you just google Mauri or tribal tattooing, I am sure you will find some sites on the Mauris' objections to non tribal people getting tattooed.

This information at least gives some logic to the beating for me. I also thought about how Jack was always trying to live up to/compete with his father and when she told him what she saw in him (that he's a leader and a great man) he wanted it tatood on him because it was proof for him that he was equal to his father and had lived up to the expectations put on him by his father.

Jack was searching for validation. When Anchara told him that he was a leader/great man, he was desperate for that statement to be set in stone. That is why he was desperate for the tattoo. He was beat up because he didn't deserve the gift because he was an outsider. I thought that was pretty clear and not confusing. It also paralleled with the show. Jack was marked seemingly for being a good man while Juliet was marked for being bad.

Again, the themes of fate and destiny come to mind. Is Jack fated to be a leader? Is Juliet fated to be an insurgent? Can we change or is history predestined? Thoughts to ponder. We weren't hit over the head with answers, but we were provided with a lot of food for thought.

The consequences of being a great man/leader are that sometime you're going to have to lead. Jack's time is now. I didn't think this episode was a snoozefest at all. I loved it. It gave more insight into Jack's character and why he seems so fractured at times. And man, is he hot!!!

I don't take what was actually "marked" on him as the same as what Achura told him she would put on him. What does being a leader & a great man have to do with what the tattoo actually says? I don't make the connection there.

I also didn't find the part where Jack was beat up confusing. He forced Achura to do something she wasn't supposed to do.

I also didn't take why she wasn't allowed to mark him as literal. It almost seemed to me that if he was "marked" then she was setting him up for his destiny. Like if he was marked than his fate was sealed.

Remember they aren't tattoos, Achura said she is not a tattoo artists, she marks people for what they really are.

One can only hope. Better him than me, because I feel like I may not survive another snooze-fest like this one. :drowsy:


I didnt find it to be a "snoozfest" at all - I think this is setting up some good stories for the mythology and consequences that we will encounter through this season. I liked the tie in of the cultural tattoo - it was her gift to be used on her people and was not something she was supposed to share with outsiders like Jack. Jack couldnt save her from theses consequences (as far as we know) but maybe he can save himself and Juliet from any future consequences of his actions with the Others.

Let's not debate the episode in here please...go to the "Rate this Episode" thread for that.

I was also wondering why he was beaten...the words where Chinese and not Thai...but they also didn't see them until they lifed his shirt up? Did I miss something there?? I know the art of tattoos are sacred to many peoples in the South Pacific...perhaps akin to wearing the colors of a gang in the states when you are not a member?

Perhaps they knew he was indeed a stranger and had no business getting ink....

I totally believe that she is a spiritual leader and Jack was sacreligious.

Maybe giving Jack that tattoo made her lose her power? The brother's might beat him up then because lil' sis lost a good revenue accruing talent.

He didnt force her to do it, she did it when he asked. So did she feel compelled to do it? It was also done in the Maori way by tapping the ink in which is very painful. For me I just made believe I was one of those guys throwing down on Jack and I felt really good about it too.

So if Jack was walking in Thailand amongst the Thai people, and was told to leave because he was not "one of them", does that mean that the Others will now react the same way and tell him to leave, or will he ultimately become a part...ick...of the Other's culture??

I don't get it at all.

And I too don't get the correlation between her seeing him as "a leader and an angry, frightened man", but marking him as 'one who walks among us but is not one of us". Unless you take it literally to mean that no one in Thailand is "a leader", and that no one is "angry" or "frightened".

I really did not like last night's episode, it didn't answer any questions, it only created more of them. Why did they beat him up? Why did she mark him if she didn't want to? How did the kid know about the tat before he saw it??

Come on writers, give us a break here!!

He didnt force her to do it, she did it when he asked. So did she feel compelled to do it?

He didn't hold a gun to her head, but he did throw her up against a wall, with very little effort since she was soooooo much smaller than him. And he was growling at her in a quite menacing fashion, with a most unpleasant look on his face and nearly demented demeanor.

It is more than reasonable to assume she felt she was being forced. So I would say, yes. She felt compelled.

Why did she mark him if she didn't want to?

IMO, because she felt threatened by Jack.

Sorry if this has already been discussed, but the search feature isn't working for me right now.

I did some Googling and found out that there truly exists such a thing as Thai "magic tattoos," which have spiritual and magical connotations and are used mainly as a means of protection. They also include different "rules" that the wearer must follow in order for them to retain their magical properties.

Some tattoos are done by high-ranking monks and are considered sacred. I'm thinking that TPTB combined these details for Jack's story, and perhaps that's why Jack was beaten up: because he demanded a sacred tattoo that, in LOST's version of Thailand, was not meant for outsiders.

And, as much I love Jack, I think even I would've been scared by his aggressive behavior and felt forced into doing what he wanted. Maybe you have to be female to understand, but it's frightening when a man -- who, typically, is much larger than you -- starts acting the way Jack did. And, let's face it, she didn't really know him that well so she had no idea whether or not he would've gotten violent if she continued to resist. (To be honest, it sure looked like he would've... He almost seemed possessed, I swear.)

I like this idea. I also don't think we are to read too much in to this epi except that it just shows us a different side of Jack. Oh by the way, she was a HOT monk/priestest.

the reason why they beat Jack was that now he have to wait for another Jack flashback so that we can understand why. And maybe, if we are lucky, the authors will also explain how he got the other tattoos... :hissy: that, of course, in season 5

So when Jack tells Isabel that he knows what the tattoo says, he really only thinks he knows... 'cause as far as Jack's concerned, the tattoo says he is a "leader and a great man". Achara knew that Jack probably wouldn't know the difference, no matter what she wrote on there, so she wrote "He walks amongst us but is not one of us" (not sure if that's the exact wording). Why, I have no idea but I'll get back to it. But when the Fantastic Five go to work on Jack, they seem spurred on by seeing the tattoo; they may be equally spurred by what the tattoo actually says -- again something Jack may be oblivious to.

As far as why Achara wrote what she did, it could be that she is the proverbial "Juliet" of the tribe; someone who is part of the tribe, but has a more modern outlook on life and doesn't see why an outsider should be excluded. The message she writes in the tattoo may be her secret little way of expressing her frustration. It's like she's saying "Hey, if you can't stand the fact that an outsider got a tattoo, why is it that you're okay with him eating worms and walking amongst us?"

Jack reacted to her secret tattooing the way most men would react to secret prostitution.

Leaders do walk among us but are not one of us.

Leaders, at least good ones, are rarely angry or frightened.

What on earth did Jack have to be angry or frightened of on an idyllic beach in Phuket with a drop-dead gorgeous girlfriend?

And I too don't get the correlation between her seeing him as "a leader and an angry, frightened man", but marking him as 'one who walks among us but is not one of us". Unless you take it literally to mean that no one in Thailand is "a leader", and that no one is "angry" or "frightened".

I guess I'll add my two cents. First, the (to Western eyes) overly aggressive retribution for Jack's marking. Tatoos are ALWAYS sacred outside of western cultures. They convey (as in authorize) a person's identity, social rank, status, roles and membership to special groups/societies. Most peoples (cultures) see these as superlatively sacred categories which create eviseral reactions to their desecration.

For a western example, one concept that is comparable is the absolute necessity of mutual consent when engaging in sexual contact (individual variance aside). When that consent is infringed upon, it ellicits a powerful, emotional response. In other words, if Jack had just raped the Thai woman no one would question him getting the crap kicked out of him. Jack did something similar ... NO this is not an issue of consent. Jack blasphemed, in many cultures, a crime punishable by death. They probably took it easy on him.

Second, "great man/leader" leads to angry and fear. You are forgetting the important middle step. Being a leader causes LONLINESS (its the lonliness that causes anger and fear). This lonliness comes because of the nature of leadership sets that individual apart from the group. The leader becomes a DIFFERENT KIND of member. Hence the "walks among us" i.e. is a member of the group; but "is not one of us" i.e.he is different from all other members.

OR it could be a reference to extra-human capabilites. Jack is a good Sheppard after all (pun SO intended!) :biggrin:

Wow, I think I saw this differently than everyone else. I was under the assumption that the tattoo was an initiation into the "gang" that controlled her(not unlike the gang controlling Juliet) Achara was the one who read people and gave them a name/meaning beyond what they are in their normal lives. Jack demanded this reading(a judgement of sorts) and was wrongfully initiated into the gang. The Gang finds out and beats him up the next morning.

I guess I'll add my two cents. First, the (to Western eyes) overly aggressive retribution for Jack's marking. Tatoos are ALWAYS sacred outside of western cultures. They convey (as in authorize) a person's identity, social rank, status, roles and membership to special groups/societies. Most peoples (cultures) see these as superlatively sacred categories which create eviseral reactions to their desecration.

For a western example, one concept that is comparable is the absolute necessity of mutual consent when engaging in sexual contact (individual variance aside). When that consent is infringed upon, it ellicits a powerful, emotional response. In other words, if Jack had just raped the Thai woman no one would question him getting the crap kicked out of him. Jack did something similar ... NO this is not an issue of consent. Jack blasphemed, in many cultures, a crime punishable by death. They probably took it easy on him.

Second, "great man/leader" leads to angry and fear. You are forgetting the important middle step. Being a leader causes LONLINESS (its the lonliness that causes anger and fear). This lonliness comes because of the nature of leadership sets that individual apart from the group. The leader becomes a DIFFERENT KIND of member. Hence the "walks among us" i.e. is a member of the group; but "is not one of us" i.e.he is different from all other members.

OR it could be a reference to extra-human capabilites. Jack is a good Sheppard after all (pun SO intended!) :biggrin:

Well said, but I am not a Jack fan, so I think you are giving him too much credit. I just don't see the whole weakness aspect of her character, so I think that if she really didn't want to mark him, she wouldn't have. This woman has a gift, she is a oracle of some sort, so why would she be afraid of Jack...a gift like that gives one power, not weakness, I would think.

I guess its hard as a strong woman to just flat out accept that she marked him because she was intimidated or scared by his behavior. It's Jack, he's a wuss. I wouldn't have been scared at all, and would have thrown him out...but that's just me.

So I guess I am just having trouble accepting that she was FORCED to tattoo him out of fear-there's gotta be more to it, I hope!!

This was the only non-confusing part of the episode in my opinon.


Jack is in Thailand to get away from the shame of having outed his dad as a drunk and his marriage has fallen apart. He's feeling worthless and alone. He's probably contemplating chucking medicine altgether.
Jack was drunk and obsessed with his girlfriend's mysterious secrets.
He finds out she is some sort of tatoo priestess.
She claims to have the mystic ability to see into a soul. She then marks the person with a tatoo so they never forget who they are.
Jack, who is looking for himself anyway, demands to know who he is. Drunk, he ends up threatening her and getting a little violent.
She tells him he will be a great leader, but always alone, and that scares him.
He tells her to finish the ritual and tatoo him. He's not doing it because he believes the ritual, but because he wants to punish himself. He oesn't feel like a great man. He feels worthless. The tattooing will be a painful punishment and, moreover, by forcing the girl to do it, he knows he will be severing the only thing left in hsi life that gives him pleasure.
To preserve somethign of her customs, rather than tattoo "lonely leader", she tattoos the equivalent of "Kick my ***" on him.
Next day, Jack's sober, and some of her congregants see the tattoo, know it means he forced her to put something on his arm, and so they beat him up. I will guess Jack isn't the only Westerner who got a "kick my ***" tattoo as a souvenir from Phuket.
Either Jack later finds out what the tattoo really says, or he doesn't care and doesn't want Isabel to tell him. Either way, the tatoo is a brand, like the one Juliet now has, which basically tells the world "I don't belong here."


Now, confusing is "Why did Ben send their only surgeon to infiltrate the Fusies?"

I find it to be a pity that Lost went down this almost racist path. It's actually quite common to see western writers portraying eastern cultures as nothing more than mystical and violent. That's so far from reality that makes me sick.

Had a good eastern author been given the opportunity to create this whole Phuket/tatoo story, there probably would be no witches or young guys that beat up tourists without any concrete reason.

Oh, come on. It's not just Eastern cultures that are mystical and violent. Claire goes to see a Western psychic. How about Walt's mystic powers? And violence? Kate blew up her dad!

In this show, it's not just the East that's mystical and violent. Everybody is mystical and violent.

I'm glad I read the various interpretations in this thread. At least I have *some* ideas to go on. I was so confused and was really just thinking it was a somewhat racist plot.

Racist, NO. I think the tai men typify gang activity which happens in all cultures(and correlates to the behaviour of the others group and Juliet)

Oh, come on. It's not just Eastern cultures that are mystical and violent. Claire goes to see a Western psychic. How about Walt's mystic powers? And violence? Kate blew up her dad!

In this show, it's not just the East that's mystical and violent. Everybody is mystical and violent.

Okay, maybe you have a point, but I do too! ;)

Let's imagine that Jack got his tatoo in San Francisco. Do you really think that the authors would use this whole magic weird girl and gang beat up thing? Of course not.

Let's imagine that Jack got his tatoo in San Francisco. Do you really think that the authors would use this whole magic weird girl and gang beat up thing? Of course not.

Why wouldn't they? I absolutely think they could have some weird New Age cult of Berkeley dropouts who tattoo Jack.

Come to think of it, isn't that basically what Locke's Oregon-based marijuana cult was?

jack was acting totally out of character, him demanding the tattoo makes as much sense as the 98 pound weeklings that beat him up for no reason

those kids looked pretty solid. Muay Thai and all...
100%
Why did the guys on the beach beat up Jack and the kid walk away? What the heck did he do wrong? She said there would be consequences to his tattoos, but did she mean getting the crap beat out of him?

If you remember in the episode, he grabbed his girlfriend and forced her to tattoo him even though she said it was culturally forbidden. It was the pivotal moment of the episode and detailed EXACTLY what he did wrong.

Don

You know, it's really not racist to connect Eastern culture with mysticism and the like. Stereotypical, maybe, but there's a difference. Not only that, but many Eastern cultures really do have a deep root in spirituality and magic. Their traditions are often traced back to so-called mystical beliefs that some of the social groups within these cultures still maintain.

I don't take what was actually "marked" on him as the same as what Achura told him she would put on him. What does being a leader & a great man have to do with what the tattoo actually says? I don't make the connection there....

In English "It's lonely at the top."

Don

Jack got beat up because he forced himself into a part of their culture where he didn't belong.

I'm terrible at remembering exact words but basically Achara told Jack that she couldn't tattoo him because it went against her culture. Jack insisted. She said there would be consequences. Jack said there are always consequences --meaning do it anyway. The consequence was the beating. Achara tried to warn him. He didn't listen.

Honestly, knowing how it is with some cultures, I was very worried they would beat her, too. I guess her consequences will be different... :(

I agree that he violated some kind of societal rule. It will be interesting to find out WHAT. I also thought Achara would reap some reprocussions, but maybe we just haven't been shown that yet. :confused:

have a look, but the tattoo she gave him was JUST the writing - the tattoo he has now also contains an image. i am almost certain of this, and if anyone has a screen shot from the moment her brother checked his arm we can confirm it....

have a look, but the tattoo she gave him was JUST the writing - the tattoo he has now also contains an image. i am almost certain of this, and if anyone has a screen shot from the moment her brother checked his arm we can confirm it....

Yeah, I noticed that, too. I guess he got the rest of it later. Wonder if it'll be tied in, as well.

Well,
This was interesting and enlightening (no pun intended) - take a look at this link

http://www.geocities.com/tat2byjoe/thaitattoo.htm

I am glad others found this flashback to be racist. It portrays Thais as being backward and superstitious. And what's up with the Chinese??? China and Thatland are two totally different countries. Thai isn't even in the Sino-Tibetan language family; the writing is actually derrived from Khmer.

Why wouldn't they? I absolutely think they could have some weird New Age cult of Berkeley dropouts who tattoo Jack

Do you not get it????? What if a huge TV show in Japan came out with an episode that portrayed average Americans as crazy members of this Berkely tatoo cult???

allaprima1 - thanks for the link. At least now there is reason to beleive that the writers didn't just make this whole thing up about the Thai tatoo cult...

And whoever said that for non-Western cultures tatoos are always sacred is full of crap. First of all you are making a huge generalization. There are thousands of different cultures that are not-Western, some having as little to do with one another as American culture and Thai culture do!!!! Just to give you an example in Beijing tatoos are used by crimiminals!!! What is sacred about that???

If Jack was beat up because his action of getting a tattoo offended the local culture, I have a problem. Isn't violence wrong under any circumstances? Are the local "brothers" justified in whomping the crap outta some strange and random white guy who had the balls (but, apparently not "the stones") to get a (OMG!) tatoo on his arm?

Turn the other cheek and all that...

This made no sense... at least as far as we know. Maybe the writers will illucidate somehwere on down the road.

In the scene, Jack stalked her, followed her to her place of business, and I would say semi- violently forced her/made her feel threatened into giving him the tat. Now, that would be enough for my brother to kick someones *Mod Edited* Add onto this some total disregard for an ancient, intimate, form of cultural identity being mocked and disrespected...equalls butt kicking, if not murder. To get a good understanding of how passionate some tribes are about tattooing of non tribal members, search Maori+tribal tattoos+westerners.
It is regarded as a theft of the soul, or family identity.
In the show, the Anchara was portrayed as someone who was highly respected by most people walking down the street, thus the gang beating.
100%
This information at least gives some logic to the beating for me. I also thought about how Jack was always trying to live up to/compete with his father and when she told him what she saw in him (that he's a leader and a great man) he wanted it tatood on him because it was proof for him that he was equal to his father and had lived up to the expectations put on him by his father.

For me, it was like he was looking for some Sawyer-esque form of self punishment. He wanted the tat even more when she said 'there will be consequences'. I mean, here he is with this obvious high class, highly respected, free spirit of local flower...she pops into his little bamboo hut every night...why would a guy want to mess that up?? Not to mention the beating he got.
I think he was at a point in his life that he felt failure, searched for escape in Phuket, and on his rest, felt that he needed punishement for what he considered some major personality flaw on himself.

Do you not get it????? What if a huge TV show in Japan came out with an episode that portrayed average Americans as crazy members of this Berkely tatoo cult???
In a show that also had plenty of Japanese people acting all Shinto-violent? Nothing. Nada. Not a thing.

In this show, we've had New Age psychics lure pregnant women onto planes destined to crash. We've had Catholic priests dealing heroin. We have sterotypical European, American and Korean malevolent corporations and conspiracies. We've had American psych professors arranging bizarre and unethical psychological experiments. We've had a Muslim terrorist conspiracy. We've had a violent commune of Oregonian pot farmers. And we have one example of a Thai buddhist monastery that believes in "seeing the soul" and sacred tattoos, and which beats the crap out of you if you disrespect their temples.

Racist? Not hardly. As I wrote, everybody in Lost is superstitious and violent, regardless of race or culture. (Well, except Sayid, apparently -- everyone else is, though.)

And whoever said that for non-Western cultures tatoos are always sacred is full of crap.Who said that? I believe it was stated that in some cultures tattoos are sacred. Geez. Some people search for offense.

edit: The only thing I could find was post 60 where someone wrote "many Eastern cultures really do have a deep root in spirituality and magic". Nobody said "always". Heck, that poster specificallys aid s/he found the reference "stereotypical." You're finding offense where none is intended or present.

Jack got beat up because...

The writers were forced to work backwards to write an episode around Jack's tattoos because a bunch of tools (not pointing any fingers) kept yammering away on online forums about the significance of the tattoos and when were we going to see an episode about them and the tattoos are the secret to the whole show and there are 23 or 8 or 15 different components to the tattoos and the tattoos have a deep spiritual meaning and blah blah blah.

So the writers responded by writing the most boring episode of the most boring season yet and then, at the end, took out their rage on the online tools by having the living snot beat our of Jack, and they watched it over and over again, pretending that Jack was one or another of these twits.

But seriously.... isn't it painfully, even pathetically, obvious that Jack is being set up as a Jesus figure? "he walks among us, but isn't one of us"... the mock cruxifiction while Mary Magdalene wept, trouble with his father, god complex. And how about that last scene with him getting in the boat... totally a Sea of Gallillee moment.

I don't think Jack got beat up for the way he got the Tattoo or for having the Tattoo at all. I think he got beat up for what Achura saw in him, and thus what she tattoed on him. I suspect what ever it really means would not bode well for people around Jack. He's cursed in some way that the other people in Phukett did not realize until Achura saw it and wrote it on him for all to see. And this is why they bansihed him.

The Tattoo was a Sak Yan, it isn't a cosmetic thing, but has deep spiritual meaning. The explanation given in the show was correct, but vague. Essentially Jack getting this tatoo would be similar to a non christian walking into a Catholic church and getting a priest to confirm them.

http://www.thailandstories.com/article/cultural/articles/traditional-thai-tattoos.html

The beating could also be due to the actual marking itself. Not only has Jack desecrated the brother's religious beliefs, but his mark may forshadow a path in life he doesn't want his sister to be part of.

Well only time will tell whether there's a spirtual/supernatural edge to the tat. I hope it will anyway!
I suspect that "he walks among us but he is not one of us" marks Jack as, in some sense, an alien, and a dangerous one at that. All the Thai that saw the tatoo would want to run away, or force Jack to run away.
100%
He didnt force her to do it, she did it when he asked. So did she feel compelled to do it?
Yes, because she was in love with him.
He insisted on getting the tatoo, despite her reluctance, because she told him that he would be a great leader, and he mistakenly assumed that the tatoo would say "Great Leader" or something. Instead it says "He walks among us but is not one of us" which might mean something like "Get the hell away from this guy, if you know what's good for you!"

She should have tattooed him with Yosemite Sam.

I disagree STRONGLY that jack forced her. For one thing, she had a gift to see who a person really is. She probably knew jack even better then he knew himself. She knew he could never hurt her. And she knew his frustration came from his need for validation. I think she did it because she saw how badly he wanted it and because she cared about him, she couldnt deny him.

What I DONT understand and what is starting to drive me crazy about this show (that I used to love) is why does noone ever communicate or ask any questions?? When she said "There will be consequences" why on earth wouldnt he say "Oh really? what kind?" Or why didnt she say "Jack you dont understand. If I do this, you will be beat up, possibly murdered and I might be also" Same with screaming at Cyndi to go away rather then quietly and logically question her. But thats another string.

She should have tattooed him with Yosemite Sam.

I disagree STRONGLY that jack forced her. For one thing, she had a gift to see who a person really is. She probably knew jack even better then he knew himself. She knew he could never hurt her. And she knew his frustration came from his need for validation. I think she did it because she saw how badly he wanted it and because she cared about him, she couldnt deny him.

What I DONT understand and what is starting to drive me crazy about this show (that I used to love) is why does noone ever communicate or ask any questions?? When she said "There will be consequences" why on earth wouldnt he say "Oh really? what kind?" Or why didnt she say "Jack you dont understand. If I do this, you will be beat up, possibly murdered and I might be also" Same with screaming at Cyndi to go away rather then quietly and logically question her. But thats another string.

I agree 100%-her character during the other scenes (beach, restaurant) was strong and in control, why would she suddenly be terrified of dorky old Jack??

I disagree STRONGLY that jack forced her. For one thing, she had a gift to see who a person really is. She probably knew jack even better then he knew himself. She knew he could never hurt her.
I think at that moment in his life, he could hurt her. Remember, thsi is when his marriage has just fallen apart. He has just destroyed his father's otherwise distinguished career. He has been stalking this woman. He pushes her against the wall.

I think she did it because she saw how badly he wanted it and because she cared about him, she couldnt deny him.
Then why didn't the tattoo say what she told him? We know what the tatto says and it isn't "A great leader". It says "He walks among us but isn't one of us," which in context means "Interloper!"

No, to me, it was clear that when Jack demanded she tattoo him, he was out of control and she knew it. He demanded she do something forbidden by her religion, so she deceived him and branded him an outsider.

Come on!!! She bearly or is it barely? Even tried to refuse him. One weak "It is against my culture" and a "There will be consequences jack. Also when she does it, she doesn't look resentful or angry. She just looks sad. Maybe she did it not because she was forced or even for love but because she understood when he followed her there that she was destined to do it. Maybe she realized once he came to her that way that it was her path in life to mark him for all the things that were going to come later... or even...

............ Maybe she was sent to him to mark him by the others as Ethan was sent to juliet. Who knows. The only thing I am sure of is that she didn't do it because she was afraid of jack.

I'm appalled to see so many people think Jack being beaten doesn't make sense.
An american drunk stalker , menaces and forces a young girl to do something that is against her principles and traditions! No wonder he had to face the consequences. The real question is :why would Jack do that?
I get the stalking, after all, he already followed his ex-wife and his father, what I don't understand is why he wanted this tattoo so much.He is supposed to be the man of science, the skeptic, in opposition to the men of faith. He doesn't believe in magic, "gifts" and stuff.

I guess he didn't like to just walk among them but not being one of them, that made him angry and consequently, lonely!.(wink-wink)

Ok, there is no way that Jack would have hurt her on purpose, thats totally ridiculous. She started being all evasive when he tried to find out what the heck she was talking about. She wasn't telling him everything and it was obvious that she knew something. After spending a month with her, why couldn't she just tell him straight out?

I'm appalled to see so many people think Jack being beaten doesn't make sense.
Agree!

what I don't understand is why he wanted this tattoo so much.He is supposed to be the man of science, the skeptic, in opposition to the men of faith.
At this specific point in his life, when Jack as at his nadir, his convictions are shaken. Which isn't to say he believes in magic. In my opinion, he had himself tattooed as a form of flagellation. He wanted to punish himself, for stalking his dad, wife and Achera. Because he thinks he is a bad person. He was asking to be hurt. And he got what he asked for. He got hsi punishment, so he was now ready to go home.

Ok, there is no way that Jack would have hurt her on purpose, thats totally ridiculous.
I found it totally believable. People are not one-sided. In the wrong situation, people can be driven to do things they wouldn't normally do. The Jack on the island is in a much different place than the Jack in Phuket. Jack in Phuket is depressed, he is lonely, he is self-loathing. Jack on the island has regained confidence, is a leader, a healer and a conscisnce. People have journeys. So does Jack.

After spending a month with her, why couldn't she just tell him straight out?
She has sex with him and ocassionally dinner. They're f---buddies, not friends.

When I was 18 I went to Thailand with my Dad while he was doing an extended surveying contract for the Thai government. He emphaticly told me how generous, hospitible and kind the Thai people are. But very clearly he told me "There's 2 things you should never make fun of or insult in Thailand unless you want to get beaten up or put in jail, and thats insulting the King or the Bhuddist religion."

I was there 2 times for 4 months each time and had the opportunity to visit many villages off the beaten track. I was treated to the most amazingly warm hospitality while I was there, they took me into their homes, tried to teach me their language, gave me herbal remedies when my stomach rebelled against their food, even took me to thier temples to experience some of their religious ceremonies. While I'm not a religious person I could feel the sacredness in those temples and the Thai people's deep religiousness, and felt very out of place but gratefull and respectful. So while I don't quite understand the religious significance of the tattoo, I completely understand how seemingly forcing Achara to do the tattoos would be a major insult or desecration of something deeply spiritual and would warrant the beating Jack got. I actually thought he got off easy, I was shocked and embarrassed actually when he was in her shop treating her that way.

Also, don't mess with the Muay Thai boys!!!! They may be small, but I saw a huge western guy get too drunk and disrespectful at a beach night club and get his jaw broken by a swift gracefull roundhouse kick from a guy smaller than those guys. One blurred motion and the big guy was on his back not knowing what hit him. While I was there I had a great time but I had the sense I was a guest there and that if I showed respect to thier customs I would be okay.

I may be wrong, but I got the impression Jack knew exactly what his tattoos said when he spoke to Isabel towards the end. When he told her, 'that's what it says; not what it means', I thought he was referring to the fact that his tattoo had a much deeper meaning than the literal translation. In fact, I thought it was a great comeback to Isabel after her earlier comment of, 'Chinese is a very complex language'. As if Jack was throwing that back in her face by telling her that even if she could read the literal translation, she couldn't decipher the tattoo's TRUE meaning.

And besides, why wouldn't Jack know the meaning himself? We didn't see Achara put the tattoo on him; who's to say she didn't explain what she was writing on his arm? Why should we assume that Jack thought his tattoo simply meant he was a 'leader'?

Far fetched? Would love feedback!

I may be wrong, but I got the impression Jack knew exactly what his tattoos said when he spoke to Isabel towards the end. When he told her, 'that's what it says; not what it means', I thought he was referring to the fact that his tattoo had a much deeper meaning than the literal translation.
I agree, although I don't think Jack thinks the tattoo says "leader".

I think Jack knows the tattoo literally says "stranger in a strange land" but knows it really means "He will always be an outsider and alone".

It's a tat with a double meaning, but quite meaningful to Jack. It's also a symbol of the burden he will always carry knowing he will always be alone. Which of course, explains why he's been so cagey around Kate and so resigned hwen he saw the two of them in the cage together. His face clearly said "Kate chose Sawyer. I'm alone again."

ITA I think Jack knows the tatoo means he will always be an outsider no matter where he is at becasue he is a totally conflicted person, He plays the hero but in fact is very unsure of himself ect...

I agree 100%-her character during the other scenes (beach, restaurant) was strong and in control, why would she suddenly be terrified of dorky old Jack??

..because he's a man, they were alone, when he threaten her, and she realize that he could possibles hurt her, or even kill her. She do not know Jack that well. she do not know everything about Jack, only what he have told her. Most women will be afraid,when a guy start acting strange, and grabbing them by the neck.


No, to me, it was clear that when Jack demanded she tattoo him, he was out of control and she knew it. He demanded she do something forbidden by her religion, so she deceived him and branded him an outsider.

I agree, I interpreted the same way. She branded him a outsider,in the same way that Juliet was branded.