I thought that the scene with Kate and Sawyer in the beginning of the episode was genious. Kate essentially offers Sawyer another chance, and Saywer blows her off. Sawyer obviously pushing Kate away just to punish himself. This makes there relationship really sour, couldn't you feel the tension during that scene!!! I think this relationship is going to be a lot more interesting that if they were to actually get togother. Anyone agree??

In SIASL Sawyer tells Kate that he knows that she "did it" just cause she thought he was a "dead man". I submit that Sawyer also "did it" for the same reasons, You can see that immediately after he realizes that he's in the clear, he starts to distance himself from Kate. Nobody as self-tortured as Sawyer would ever indulge in meaningful sex if they were planning on having to live with it after the fact!! At the end of TTID we can see Sawyer look and Sun & Jin and Charlie & Claire, and the idea of reconcilliation with Kate pops into his head, but he immediately seems to say to him self "no way, that' s not for me", and to me, he really didn't seem that disappointed.

I don't know. I actually felt bad for Sawyer because of that scene with the couples.

It's true he does seem to blow it off, however, this is Sawyer's way of making things easy. He's used to being alone, or being hated. Now there's a possibility that that he wouldn't be either of those..and all he has to do is say two words. But he refuses, and I think he does it because he's afraid of change.

"Tiger don't change its stripes"...as he's put it before.

Honestly?

He looked pretty sulky to me.
When he came back to camp, he looked around for Kate, then we saw the flashes of S&J, C&C, then he sat down and started to drink.

Classic sulking.

In SIASL Sawyer tells Kate that he knows that she "did it" just cause she thought he was a "dead man". I submit that Sawyer also "did it" for the same reasons, You can see that immediately after he realizes that he's in the clear, he starts to distance himself from Kate. Nobody as self-tortured as Sawyer would ever indulge in meaningful sex if they were planning on having to live with it after the fact!! At the end of TTID we can see Sawyer look and Sun & Jin and Charlie & Claire, and the idea of reconcilliation with Kate pops into his head, but he immediately seems to say to him self "no way, that' s not for me", and to me, he really didn't seem that disappointed.

I disagree. I don't think he had sex with Kate b/c he thought he was going to die. I truly think for the first time he really, really loves someone and in that moment, he was thinking not about dying but about her. I also interpreted his look at the two other couples as more wistfulness than indifference or reluctance. Imo.

The whole thing reminded me of Exodus. Hopefully their reunion will be just as touching the second time around!

I'm always facinated by the way different people can look at something and see it so completely differently. One of the beauties of humanity, such diversity.

When I watched those same scenes, I saw desperation, on both their parts.

In Sawyer, I saw the flailing desperation of a cocky man who suddenly finds himself in a situation where his confidence has completely failed him. He has no clue what to do. So he falls back on second nature. He let's things fall out of his mouth and immediately is sorry, but can't manage to say it. What good would it do? He's Sawyer, and no one will ever really care about Sawyer. It isn't possible.

Uh-oh. What's this? People converging on him back at camp to greet him and welcome him home with smiles and touches and genuine words of welcome? And try as he might, with his mouth set on auto-snark, still Hurley nearly smothers him with a huge affectionate hug. Jin smiles and embraces him. Wow. He's not comfortable, but it's sinking in a little.

By the end, he's desperate for Kate. Everyone is paired off in intimate *Honey, how was your day?* conversations, and he is alone. Does he even know where she is? I don't think so. I don't think he knows she's left. He likely thinks she is someplace close, snuggled up taking a nap or telling someone other than him about what she's thinking.

Cut to Kate. She was desperate too. Way back in the I Never game, she said she never had a one night stand. If that is true, then she didn't have pity sex. She is in love with Sawyer. She may not "do taco night", but she wants something close to normal in a relationship. She wants someone she can communicate with, without having to scale a wall every time she talks to them. She's feeling her way too. Neither of them is particularly skilled with truthful, intimate conversation.

And she has something else on her mind. Jack. She carries around the guilt of the deaths of enough men. She's desperate to not add Jack to that list. IMO she is not being driven by being in love. She has a desperate need to convince herself that it is possible for her to feel affection (on any level) for a man without it costing him his life. Things have not worked out real well for the men who have cared for her, on any level.

She's serious and highly motivated. Like Hurley, she has a curse to break, and she doesn't have the time for anyone but the most motivated help. She has to get past this before she can be comfortable with the man she loves. The man she left in the safe company of their "home" beach.

Well, I totally agree with Sheba but I am too tired to elaborate as to why. But I think that she already hit the nail on the head!

The whole thing reminded me of Exodus. Hopefully their reunion will be just as touching the second time around!

The scene on the beach when they are looking at each other but not at the same time is almost the same as the one from the season one finale. This time their roles are reversed, she's leaving and he's staying.

Sawyer sitting in his chair, watching the happy couples while drinking his beer alone reminded me of the SOS episode. There was also a final montage with happy couples: Sun & Jin, Rose & Bernard, Hurley & Libby.
Sawyer, on the other hand, was sitting by the fire alone, looking sad because Kate had gone to the jungle with Jack. Vincent was the only company he had. :frown:

To be honest, I'm pretty annoyed with the whole thing. It's up and down, up and down ALL THE TIME with the two of them....i thought the scene on the beach when they looked at each other was totally pointless. I'm beginning to think the writers can't think of anything better to write about with the two of them, and are getting stuck on how to further develop their characters.

I miss the old LOST that had much more than cheesy romantic scenes of Kate and Sawyer glancing at eachother lovingly on the beach.....

....but I may just be bitter about the bad writing this season (in my opinion).

Well said, sheba. :)

Kate essentially offers Sawyer another chance, and Saywer blows her off. Sawyer obviously pushing Kate away just to punish himself. This makes there relationship really sour, couldn't you feel the tension during that scene!!! I think this relationship is going to be a lot more interesting that if they were to actually get togother. Anyone agree??I agree it's much more interesting, yes, especially since there is so much more character growth needed for the characters. I believe this storyline is the key to that. These two characters have a unique relationship - they accept each other, faults and all. Sure, they'd like to see changes, but they don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. And that's the best environment for growth - one where you're loved, even when you make mistakes.


In SIASL Sawyer tells Kate that he knows that she "did it" just cause she thought he was a "dead man". I submit that Sawyer also "did it" for the same reasons, You can see that immediately after he realizes that he's in the clear, he starts to distance himself from Kate. Nobody as self-tortured as Sawyer would ever indulge in meaningful sex if they were planning on having to live with it after the fact!! I'd have to disagree there. I think they both would have taken longer to "express" their feeling in that manner ;) , if they'd had more time. But it looked like they were pretty damn sure this might be the end. No time to waste - they got their feelings out, and consummated the relationship, before it was too late.


It's true he does seem to blow it off, however, this is Sawyer's way of making things easy. He's used to being alone, or being hated. Now there's a possibility that that he wouldn't be either of those..and all he has to do is say two words. But he refuses, and I think he does it because he's afraid of change.
Yeah, I think you're right - like most people, change is scary. And when love is involved, that brings up all kinds of vulnerability issues as well.

The whole thing reminded me of Exodus. Hopefully their reunion wil be just as touching the second time around!Yeah it did. :) Two of my all time favorite eps - Exodus 1 & 2. Those two scenes where they're looking for each other, they were so touching without even having any dialogue. And here we saw the same thing again. The writers created a scene where the feelings unspoken. And like Exodus, each didn't know how the other felt. Saving them for a later episode, I'm sure. ;)


The scene on the beach when they are looking at each other but not at the same time is almost the same as the one from the season one finale. This time their roles are reversed, she's leaving and he's staying.
In Sawyer, I saw the flailing desperation of a cocky man who suddenly finds himself in a situation where his confidence has completely failed him. He has no clue what to do. So he falls back on second nature. He let's things fall out of his mouth and immediately is sorry, but can't manage to say it. What good would it do? He's Sawyer, and no one will ever really care about Sawyer. It isn't possible.

Uh-oh. What's this? People converging on him back at camp to greet him and welcome him home with smiles and touches and genuine words of welcome? And try as he might, with his mouth set on auto-snark, still Hurley nearly smothers him with a huge affectionate hug. Jin smiles and embraces him. Wow. He's not comfortable, but it's sinking in a little.That was some nice character growth there. Angry Sawyer, having found his stash gone, instead of starting a brawl, backed down and tried to handle it another way. And then he gets that response from Hurley and Jin - Sawyer may be feeling he's got friends after all, even if love doesn't appear to be working out for him. He doesn't go off sulking. He doesn't verbally assault anyone. He tries to forget about it and have a good time with the boys. That's a far cry from Season 1 Sawyer.


Well there was the obvious 'Androcles and the Lion' parallel in the first scene. With Kate pulling the thorn out of the lion's paw sort to speak. There are the obvious themes of 'freedom' and 'gratitude' in 'Androcles and the Lion' , although I'm not sure if it relates to their future as a couple in any way, maybe just their current situation.Interesting. Nice catch. I wonder too if that's to mirror the characters' relationship right now - too tired to think about it tonight. :71:


Though the couple seems in trouble, overall I loved the how they handled the story. Clearly this isn't a relationship they can just 'walk' into - and though they both are struggling with it, it appears neither of them really wants to let go. At least that's how I interpreted the scenes. Longing. That's how I'd describe the feel of those scenes.

Wishing it would be easier, but it can't, cause it's a drama, not a romantic comedy. :71:

And she has something else on her mind. Jack. She carries around the guilt of the deaths of enough men. She's desperate to not add Jack to that list. IMO she is not being driven by being in love. She has a desperate need to convince herself that it is possible for her to feel affection (on any level) for a man without it costing him his life. Things have not worked out real well for the men who have cared for her, on any level.

I think I would go along with this...and to be honest what she wants to do for Jack actually has little to do with Sawyer. Its something she has to set right before she can move on. Its almost like Desmond having to sail around the world to prove himself to Penny's father before he could have any kind of relationshp with her. Kate can't sit down and just watch the beach and be part of a 'couple' with Sawyer (as was shown to contrast with the J/S and C/C montages) until this 'thing' is resolved because if its not it will always be hanging over her head. Once its taken care of..then she can sit around and enjoy Sawyer's company.

I definitely thought there was significance in the line "Welcome back, Sawyer."... after she'd been calling him James the last 2 episodes. Sawyer is the loner, renegade jack@$$. Indeed, welcome back SAWYER.

I'm always facinated by the way different people can look at something and see it so completely differently. One of the beauties of humanity, such diversity.

When I watched those same scenes, I saw desperation, on both their parts.

In Sawyer, I saw the flailing desperation of a cocky man who suddenly finds himself in a situation where his confidence has completely failed him. He has no clue what to do. So he falls back on second nature. He let's things fall out of his mouth and immediately is sorry, but can't manage to say it. What good would it do? He's Sawyer, and no one will ever really care about Sawyer. It isn't possible.

Uh-oh. What's this? People converging on him back at camp to greet him and welcome him home with smiles and touches and genuine words of welcome? And try as he might, with his mouth set on auto-snark, still Hurley nearly smothers him with a huge affectionate hug. Jin smiles and embraces him. Wow. He's not comfortable, but it's sinking in a little.

By the end, he's desperate for Kate. Everyone is paired off in intimate *Honey, how was your day?* conversations, and he is alone. Does he even know where she is? I don't think so. I don't think he knows she's left. He likely thinks she is someplace close, snuggled up taking a nap or telling someone other than him about what she's thinking.

Cut to Kate. She was desperate too. Way back in the I Never game, she said she never had a one night stand. If that is true, then she didn't have pity sex. She is in love with Sawyer. She may not "do taco night", but she wants something close to normal in a relationship. She wants someone she can communicate with, without having to scale a wall every time she talks to them. She's feeling her way too. Neither of them is particularly skilled with truthful, intimate conversation.

And she has something else on her mind. Jack. She carries around the guilt of the deaths of enough men. She's desperate to not add Jack to that list. IMO she is not being driven by being in love. She has a desperate need to convince herself that it is possible for her to feel affection (on any level) for a man without it costing him his life. Things have not worked out real well for the men who have cared for her, on any level.

She's serious and highly motivated. Like Hurley, she has a curse to break, and she doesn't have the time for anyone but the most motivated help. She has to get past this before she can be comfortable with the man she loves. The man she left in the safe company of their "home" beach.
Sheba, you totally called it here. I think you captured their feelings so perfectly! I think this episode was just about that... changing patterns from the past.... Show that they can in fact have hope on the island... Brilliant post! I totally agree!!!

I'm always facinated by the way different people can look at something and see it so completely differently. One of the beauties of humanity, such diversity.

When I watched those same scenes, I saw desperation, on both their parts.

In Sawyer, I saw the flailing desperation of a cocky man who suddenly finds himself in a situation where his confidence has completely failed him. He has no clue what to do. So he falls back on second nature. He let's things fall out of his mouth and immediately is sorry, but can't manage to say it. What good would it do? He's Sawyer, and no one will ever really care about Sawyer. It isn't possible.

Uh-oh. What's this? People converging on him back at camp to greet him and welcome him home with smiles and touches and genuine words of welcome? And try as he might, with his mouth set on auto-snark, still Hurley nearly smothers him with a huge affectionate hug. Jin smiles and embraces him. Wow. He's not comfortable, but it's sinking in a little.

By the end, he's desperate for Kate. Everyone is paired off in intimate *Honey, how was your day?* conversations, and he is alone. Does he even know where she is? I don't think so. I don't think he knows she's left. He likely thinks she is someplace close, snuggled up taking a nap or telling someone other than him about what she's thinking. Well put. This episode continued to showcase Sawyer's deepening feelings for Kate even though he tries to push her away most of the time. The looks where he and Kate never connect eyes is getting kind of tiresome - that's been going on since NIP. Interesting montage at the end, though contrasting the couples and then Sawyer observing this, whose thoughts fadeover to Kate -- and for a change in these montages, Sawyer is the furthest thing from her mind.

Cut to Kate. She was desperate too. Way back in the I Never game, she said she never had a one night stand. If that is true, then she didn't have pity sex. She is in love with Sawyer. She may not "do taco night", but she wants something close to normal in a relationship. She wants someone she can communicate with, without having to scale a wall every time she talks to them. She's feeling her way too. Neither of them is particularly skilled with truthful, intimate conversation. Even though she doesn't engage in one-night stands, there's a powerful argument that her tryst with Sawyer in the cage was, as he put it, "because she knew he was a dead man" and wanted to express her feelings for him before it was too late. If he was killed the next day that doesn't make it a one-night stand, lol.

And she has something else on her mind. Jack. She carries around the guilt of the deaths of enough men. She's desperate to not add Jack to that list. IMO she is not being driven by being in love. She has a desperate need to convince herself that it is possible for her to feel affection (on any level) for a man without it costing him his life. Things have not worked out real well for the men who have cared for her, on any level.

She's serious and highly motivated. Like Hurley, she has a curse to break, and she doesn't have the time for anyone but the most motivated help. She has to get past this before she can be comfortable with the man she loves. The man she left in the safe company of their "home" beach. I guess that's a comfortable way to look at it for some people, as you said in your first post. I doubt Kate would risk her life to go across the island to a place she can't even find just to tie up a loose end so she can be with her true love Sawyer. There wasn't anything in Kate's behavior or words since the beginning of NIP to indicate that she wanted to settle down cozy-like with Sawyer if only she could make her peace with Jack. In the walkie conversation with Jack, she conveyed so much more emotion than would have to someone she didn't love deeply. On the way back, she wanted to turn the boat around, bugged Sawyer about how he didn't seem concerned about Jack, bugged him about how they would explain Jack's absence to the camp, and so on. She finally wanted to just clear things with Sawyer with the "clean slate" comment -- that means going back to the beginning, when they were friends. People don't use a clean slate metaphor to just make up from a couple hours of bickering -- it means wiping out significant events between them (like cage sex) and starting over.
Of course these things can't be wiped out so their relationship will probably be awkward and complicated for a while -- even if she returns successful from her mission.

I definitely thought there was significance in the line "Welcome back, Sawyer."... after she'd been calling him James the last 2 episodes. Sawyer is the loner, renegade jack@$$. Indeed, welcome back SAWYER.

Definitely, now that he is back at the beach he has an image to maintain. SAWYER not JAMES.

I thought it was kinda sad the way they brushed each other off before getting back to the beach. I guess they each had different priorities - Kate=save Jack. Saywer = get back to his stash.

BTW, great post Sheba.

My hopes are that the writers will please resolve Kate and Sawyer's relationship issues off screen and not subject viewers to anymore of them "together". They are not an interesting couple. Watching Jin and Sun struggle was always interesting. Watching Kate and Sawyer struggle is like watching two teenagers play the "but does he just like her or does her like, like her" game. It's brutal.

I came to work and asked the guy I work with if he understood any of their interaction and if so could he please explain to me what it was Sawyer was supposed to apologize for. He said he wasn't sure either, but assumed she was mad at him about not caring about leaving Jack behind and not caring about going to get him back.

And she has something else on her mind. Jack. She carries around the guilt of the deaths of enough men. She's desperate to not add Jack to that list. IMO she is not being driven by being in love. She has a desperate need to convince herself that it is possible for her to feel affection (on any level) for a man without it costing him his life. Things have not worked out real well for the men who have cared for her, on any level.

She's serious and highly motivated. Like Hurley, she has a curse to break, and she doesn't have the time for anyone but the most motivated help. She has to get past this before she can be comfortable with the man she loves. The man she left in the safe company of their "home" beach.

Excellent post, Sheba. I like your parallel between Hurley and Kate, and their determination to break a pattern. I think the parallel can be extended to Jin and Sawyer as well. Jin is locked in his solitude because he can't speak English and is afraid to try. By the end of the episode, he's come around to the idea and offers a flower to Sun in apology for his stubbornness.

OTOH, Sawyer is locked into his belief that he's trash, that he's no good and never can be, and he's afraid to try to be different. He clings to the idea that "A tiger don't change his stripes" because he's afraid to try, even while demonstrating that it's untrue! Look at his reaction to having his stuff stolen. He hollered some, but he didn't punch Desmond or give him the glare of death he would once have given him. He pretty much accepted his apology, and Charlie's too, then wanted to know who the third culprit was so he could go holler at him as well. No way that was vintage old-school Sawyer behavior. And what happens when he finds culprit #3? He's welcomed with a rib-crushing hug of relief and affection. So instead of berating Hurley, he ends up hugging him right back! :biggrin:

Sawyer HAS changed. He's become attached to these people and he can holler and glower and try to pretend he's the same angry rebel without a clue that he once was, but he's not. There's no turning back. The same is true of Kate. He's in love with her, and he might wish he could go back to something simpler and less demanding, where she's not allowed to have expectations of him and he never has to say he's sorry for anything, but it's waaay too late for that. Hurley faced off with his demons in this episode, and so did Charlie. They made a choice to make their own luck. Sawyer hasn't quite got there... he's still afraid to hope. You don't have to stay the way you are, that's the message of the episode. In the heavily thematic free will versus determinism episode, he's the only one that came down on the determinism side.

The story isn't over yet, however, and I wouldn't be surprised to see some BIG changes coming up with Sawyer. Anyone who thinks they were looking at the same old Sawyer just sitting and drinking beer on the beach isn't taking into account the fact that he doesn't even know that Kate has left the camp. (If he did, he wouldn't have been looking around for her.) He's sitting there moping thinking she's somewhere in the camp and that he'll at least SEE her tomorrow, even if he can't figure out how to BE with her. In other words, the old status quo. Kate mentioned that somebody needs the right motivation to get a thing done. I suspect that finding out Kate has gone looking for the Others camp alone, with only Sayid and Locke for back-up up, will be all the motivation Sawyer needs to give up on the old status quo, once and for all! :biggrin:

I came to work and asked the guy I work with if he understood any of their interaction and if so could he please explain to me what it was Sawyer was supposed to apologize for. He said he wasn't sure either...

I thought she was wanting him to apologize for accusing her of having sex with him only because she thought he was a dead man. But who knows with these two.

Seems to me, Sawyer doesn't grasp that Kate can feel strongly for Jack, enough to not want to leave him behind, and have enough emotion left over to love him. He has the emotional maturity of a high school boy.

Wow these are all really great posts, thanks a lot! It is really amazing how different people can see the same thing and interperet it totally differently. Some of the things you all have pointed out I would have never thought of, but now that you've mentioned them, they seem obvious.

Sawyer's growth as a character is something I hadn't taken into account. The scene with him and Hurley, Jin, and Charlie riding around in the van is gonna be a classic. I also thought that that was a big moment for Jin, and it made me happy for him, that he's finally breaking through the language barrier (a little) and able to go hang out with the boys. Anyways, you're right Sawyer would have never done something like this in S1. But he really was being a dick to Hurley there for a minute. Baby steps.

The "clean slate" scene had me thinking that Kate was ready to take back Sawyer whenever he was ready, but now I'm not so sure if that's true. Maybe "clean slate" does mean starting over at the beginning of their friendship, but I prefer to think that it means going back to when they were in the cages. Anyways, I think if Sawyer had apologized to Kate, it might not have made a huge difference. She still would have gone after Jack, and when she came back, probably with Jack, I have a feeling things wouldn't have been the same between her and Sawyer. What do you think??

I disagree. I don't think he had sex with Kate b/c he thought he was going to die. I truly think for the first time he really, really loves someone and in that moment, he was thinking not about dying but about her. I also interpreted his look at the two other couples as more wistfulness than indifference or reluctance. Imo.


I agree, that's exactly how I felt by the end. I also think he's afraid that Kate loves Jack and that keeps him from showing her how he really feels.

For me it was pretty obvious in her words, tone and the way Kate looked at him that she wanted to get over the fighting part and be close again after what they'd shared that night. However, I don't think if he had apologised (for saying she only did it because he was a dead man - which had to hurt) that she would have changed her plan to go back and get Jack. She's still an independent woman while with Sawyer, and that's one of the reasons why I personally love that dynamic. She doesn't need Sawyer's approval or permission to do what she feels she needs to do. I personally think that if she does find Jack and comes back with him that a sweet reunion is in store.

Well put. This episode continued to showcase Sawyer's deepening feelings for Kate even though he tries to push her away most of the time. The looks where he and Kate never connect eyes is getting kind of tiresome - that's been going on since NIP. Interesting montage at the end, though contrasting the couples and then Sawyer observing this, whose thoughts fadeover to Kate -- and for a change in these montages, Sawyer is the furthest thing from her mind.

Even though she doesn't engage in one-night stands, there's a powerful argument that her tryst with Sawyer in the cage was, as he put it, "because she knew he was a dead man" and wanted to express her feelings for him before it was too late. If he was killed the next day that doesn't make it a one-night stand, lol.

I guess that's a comfortable way to look at it for some people, as you said in your first post. I doubt Kate would risk her life to go across the island to a place she can't even find just to tie up a loose end so she can be with her true love Sawyer. There wasn't anything in Kate's behavior or words since the beginning of NIP to indicate that she wanted to settle down cozy-like with Sawyer if only she could make her peace with Jack. In the walkie conversation with Jack, she conveyed so much more emotion than would have to someone she didn't love deeply. On the way back, she wanted to turn the boat around, bugged Sawyer about how he didn't seem concerned about Jack, bugged him about how they would explain Jack's absence to the camp, and so on. She finally wanted to just clear things with Sawyer with the "clean slate" comment -- that means going back to the beginning, when they were friends. People don't use a clean slate metaphor to just make up from a couple hours of bickering -- it means wiping out significant events between them (like cage sex) and starting over.
Of course these things can't be wiped out so their relationship will probably be awkward and complicated for a while -- even if she returns successful from her mission.



Again I respectfully disagree with a post, wow it really shocks me that some people can't see that Kate wanted him to say he was sorry because Sawyer hurt her when he accused her of pity sex!:rolleyes:
Nothing more nothing less it's a fairly easy thing to understand!
You don't ask someone for an apology UNLESS they have hurt you with what they have said & that only implies that what has been said is not true because if it was the truth you would not feel the need to ask the person to apologize because deep down you know they are right. Kate was so obviously hurt & shocked that Sawyer would think that!
If she had wanted a "clean slate" in the meaning of from before captivity she would not have needed an apology!
As someone has already said, Kate looked hopeful & was willing to open up to Sawyer if only he had let her in! ;)

She's still an independent woman while with Sawyer, and that's one of the reasons why I personally love that dynamic. She doesn't need Sawyer's approval or permission to do what she feels she needs to do.

I concur. I don't think Jack would give her the breathing room that Sawyer does.

Sheba already said it all, IMO. Great post. :)

You know even if Kate only slept with Sawyer during I Do because she did think he was about to die, that doesn't mean that it was pity sex. Maybe it was something that she had been longing to do for quite a while, but now she feared that moment in the cage would be her last opportunity. And just because she feels guilty about Jack, doesn't mean that she regrets having slept with Sawyer. Perhaps she just feels guilty over the prospect of leaving Jack behind while she contemplates moving foreward with her relationship with Sawyer. Her guilt may have a lot more to do with the comfort and pleasure that she felt while she was in Sawyer's arms. And for the fact that she begged Jack to do surgery to save Sawyer. She might feel like if she hadn't begged Jack to do that, then he wouldn't have scarificed himself the way that he did to save them.

The sad thing is that for as much as Kate and Sawyer ususally understand each other so completely, Sawyer is letting his own sense of self doubt and worthlessness undermind his confidence in his ability to read Kate's feelings. The result of which is that he mistrusts her motives for being with him. And he feels too vulerable to be able to be objective about their's situation. He just wants to protect himself from being hurt. And if that means assuming the worst about Kate's motives for both sleeping with him and wanting to rescue Jack, then that is what he is going to do. His need for her love is so strong that it has the power to destroy him. He recognizes that and is just trying maintain a safe distance for the simple sake of self preservation.

I really enjoyed Sawyer in this episode, even if, as others have pointed out in other threads, his one-liners and nicknames have lately been overdone. In this setting (a fun adventure with the boys), they fit. Not really on an escape from Alcatraz island.

Anyway, I loved that he was involved in the 'hope' mission that Hurley was on. It is really important for the development of his character to find connections with the other Losties, and I thought TPTB were going to use Kate to make him be friends with them. I'm glad to see he's opening up on his own.

And now hopefully the mission instilled some hope in him, and he can reflect on how these relationships feel good...that being a good person isn't all terrible :)

I haven't had time to read through the whole thread, so apologies if this has been said before, but I thought the whole "apology" thing between Kate and Sawyer was about him letting Karl go without any consultation -- I think she was angry that her ace in the hole about how to reach the other's camp and get Jack back was thwarted by Sawyer's little convo with Karl. Don't think the epi made Sawyer's motives for that very clear imo.
squid

Firstly, I'd just like to say how pleased I am that there's a thread discussing the sawyer and kate scenes from the episode with lots of differing opinions between ships but there is no hostility or baiting comments. I love a good debate, but often when it comes down to shippery stuff, it's impossible to do without it turning nasty!

This was an interesting episode for both characters and the psychology behind their actions, and it's interesting to read different people's opinions.

I was pleasently suprised when kate told sawyer all he had to do is say he was sorry, and they can start with a cleans slate. I was just expecting them to remain angry at each other all the way home then kate run off. In my opinion I definetly think she was asking for an apology for the accusation that she only slept with him because he was a dead man, Personally, if I'd made love to someone, and cuddled in their arms all night afterwards and heard them say they loved me, then shielded them with my own body when someone came to hurt them and shouted that I'd do anything to save them, I wouldn;t expect that person to throw it back ion my face and declare I'd only done it because I thought he'd be dead the next day. That was pretty insulting. And she had the right to have an apology from him, and she actually did a very un-kate like thing and spoke about their relationship. But sawyer being sawyer had to mess it up!

I think if the clean slate thing had been intended to mean that they could go back to being friends before the sex and the kiss in TGB etc, then that would have been made a bit clearer, like kate saying "we can give each other a clean slate, go back to how things were before we were captured." But then this is just my interpretation, I know there are other ways of looking at it.

I think Kate was sad and disapointed that sawyer still continued to push her away, "I aint got nothing to appologize for." He still believes that's why she slept with him. hence her line "Welcome home sawyer." Incrreasingly he's becoming James to her, marking he beginning of something different for them. He could have continued being james, the ball was in his court, but he reverted back to being sawyer, so that's what she called him.

As to why sawyer acted the way he did, this is the first time he's been in love, and he's what 37? It;s tragic but true. he doesn;t know what on earth to do with these feelings and they scare the crap out of him. everything between them progressed so far in their time in captivity, and all of a sudden things have changed between them. When they were in captivity and they were all each other had and their lives were totally threatened, this didn;t scare him. But in the cold light of day, all his old hang ups are rearing his ugly head.

sawyer hates himself, he doesn;t think he's worthy of love or anything good. Despite the good things he's done on the island, he still believes he's a bad man and has never done anything good in his life. He is also deeply insecure, and alot of this is rooted to jack. He has alwayss thought kate wants jack not him, because he doesn;t have enough self worth to believe anyone would want him, let alone over a doctor. But Kate made love to him, fought to save his life at the risk of his own, proving with actions, of not words (as I know that the whole "I love you" comment is still up for debate) that she thinks he's worthy enough for her love and attention.

Maybe if the three ofthem had got out together, he wouldn;t have felt so insecure. But having jack pull his self sacrificing bit to save them and the obvious difficulity kate found leaving him behidnbrought these insecurities to the forefront of his brain again, all the little voices that tell him he;s not good enough for her and she should be with jack. So he hives her a way out, accuses her of only sleeping with him because she thought he was a dead man. he loves her, it is abundantly clear, and I think that's something most people agree on. So he's doing what he thinks is best for her.

Of course he's doing the oppposite, but like someone pointed out. he doesn't believe kate can care for Jack and have enough feelings left to love him as well. he does have the emotional maturity as a teenager, and whi,lst it's understandable that some people find it annoying, I personally find it endeering. He has no idea how to act in an emotionally healthy manner, he was never taught how to.

The scene where they were both looking at each other when they returned also reminded me of Exodus, they were both looking at each other but not at the same time. sawyer goes off to get his stash back, not realising kate's going to do a runner and Kate gets in action mode and goes off after Jack.

Again, there are different interpretations of Kate's motorvations to go get jaxck back. In my opinion I would agree with Sheba, that Kate also has a curse around her, the men who she cares for or who care for her always end up getting hurt or worse. She doesn;t want jack to be another Tom, a casuality of his affection for her. She's going to get him back, and she;s going to risk her life doing so because like Hurley, she wants to break the curse surrounding her. Personally I don;t believe this is because of her romantic love for him, or that she is going to fall into his arms when she rescues him or begin a relationship with him when or if they return to the beach. But I could be wrong, I just don;t believe what we have seen in the show at the moment points to a relationship between jack and kate at this moment in time.

Kate is never going ot be able to have any kind of romantic relationship with sawyer until she has resolved her feelings for Jack in my opinion. She is obviously torn between both men, but I think having sawyer's life in constant danger and seeing the lengths he will go to try and protect her gave her the confidence to admit to herself who it is she wants romantically, but the guilt of leaving jack behind will poison any relationship they try to have.

Personally I'm glad that there is this separation. kate will either come back to the beach after trying to rescue jack, or actually be able to rescue him with her feelings for jack resolved and reasdy to start something for sawyer, or this time apart will make her realise it's jack she wants and she can start a relationship with him. I have been pleased with the skatey stuff that has heppened, but rather than dragging skate out for the season only to have it break up and jate happen, I would rather things break off now, as although I'm a skate shipper, I truly think the triangle nonsense is dragging the show down. But if she comes back from her adventure and comes back wanting to be with sawyer, then I believe that the triangle will truly be over and that it is sawyer who she ultimately wants to be with.

Anyway, the end of my cold medicine induced ramble, hope at least some of it makes sense!