Didn't like the ep? Tell us why. :biggrin:






This thread is for those that did NOT like the episode. If you liked the ep please visit the "Loved it!!!" thread. If you want to debate the episode (likes and dislikes), then please take your comments to the "Rate This Episode" thread or start your own topic. Any off topic posts will be deleted and possibly warned or given infraction points.

So now we have time travel and a magic box? This my friends may be where Lost finally jumped the shark.

I'm guessing there will be a super-duper invisibity sheild to explain why no one can find the island. Add aliens, clones, and people coming back from the dead and let's get really crazy. TPTB promised in season one things were grounded in reality. It looks like they wrote themselves into so many corners they had to rely on bizarre supernatural elements to continue the story and resolve plotlines.

Locke's Dad was responsible for putting him in the wheelchair? Who would have guessed that? We waited 2 1/2 seasons for this? One word: ANTICLIMACTIC.

Lately the score has been very noticable. A good music score adds to the episode and complements the action on screen. The overly dramatic music during this episode begged so hard for the audience to be moved that it made me cringe and distracted me from what I was watching.

I thought the dreaded love triangle/hexagon was dead? Enough already.

WHY didn't they search Sayid's pack and find the C4? Locke thinks Henry left the C4 in Sayid's pack because he wanted him to blow up the sub? How would that have worked exactly? Henry was in bed and didn't know Sayid and Kate were captured. So obviously Henry didn't know there was a pack with C4 in it. So how could Henry tell someone not to search Sayid's pack and leave the C4 there for Locke to use?

Did Locke really have to blow up the sub? He went to all that trouble to get rid of one way to leave the island when he knew nothing of other ways to leave or communicate? How about this Locke, when it comes time to be rescued, don't leave. Let everyone else go. Sorry but this whole plot of Locke not wanting to leave and doing everything he can to stop everyone else from leaving is ridiculous.

I liked nearly everything except the magic box story. What was up with that? It seemed very, very silly. Like the kind of story one might use to bribe a preschooler. But, who knows, maybe Santa Clause resides on the island and that is were all the gifts come from. :rolleyes:

This thread is for those that did NOT like the episode. If you liked the ep please visit the "Loved it!!!" thread. If you want to debate the episode (likes and dislikes), then please take your comments to the "Rate This Episode" thread or start your own topic. Any off topic posts will be deleted and possibly warned or given infraction points.


The rules of this thread are really simple...I have already deleted five posts as off topic or ones that debated the episode.

Please follow the rules of the thread...

On the whole, it was an okay episode, but yet again we get these inconsistancies that just make it all a little off. That is the only reason I am not posting in the liked it thread. It wasn't horrible, it was interesting but we still have the illogical actions of the characters, which maybe be logical in the story, but since we don't know what is going on, its hard to appreciate!

So now we have a new thing or is Ben talking about Smokey? Very confused about that whole thing, and I don't know what I feel about the idea of the box....

I usually preface my "Didn't Love it" posts with the fact that I didn't HATE the episode. But this episode gets a Solid F from me. Frickin' terrible. Uncomprehensible.

I didn't love this episode, but I didn't hate it, either. At least Locke's background story and Danielle's discovery of Alex made it somewhat worthwhile. But I'm getting tired of Benry, along with Losties becoming prisoners of the Others. What makes this even more sickening is that this is Kate's second turn at being a prisoner. And WTF is a submarine doing in this story?

I have decided that all of our characters are probably dead and that the island is nothin more than a way station to decide what will happen to their souls. I think there is something similar in the ancient Egyptian religion. This is the only way I can view this show's convoluted storyline.

I really enjoyed the show just for entertainment but I'm posting here because it made no sense to me and probably won't be explained for several more years. It's just so frustrating and I'm tired of waiting for an explanation of what is going on. Every time the characters converse I'm thinking "ask them what is going on". It drives me crazy. A good example is when Jack and Kate were alone and they made it all about the triangle instead of discussing what was going on and what to do about it. Ugh!!

I didn't love this episode, but I didn't hate it, either. At least Locke's background story and Danielle's discovery of Alex made it somewhat worthwhile. But I'm getting tired of Benry, along with Losties becoming prisoners of the Others. What makes this even more sickening is that this is Kate's second turn at being a prisoner. And WTF is a submarine doing in this story?
I agree. I actually am interested in the potential reunion of Danielle and Alex. Too bad we got about a minute of their storyline last night.

Mostly, though, I agree with Felaries that I am getting tired of Ben and the Others. I'm pretty much over Ben. The character is intriguing in theory, but as it plays out, he's just annoying and nonsensical. I'm getting tired of Kate et. al. being handcuffed every time they come into contact with the Others. At the beginning of this season, we were "shocked" to discover that the Others have been living civilly. But I guess that means nothing now.

During this episode, I couldn't help but think that any scene with Ben or any Other is just inherently ridiculous because there is NO REASON, other than being a blatant plot device, that the Others would speak the way they do and refuse to let anyone else know why they are on the island or what they are doing there. If they are so GOOD, then why hide it? This is a major flaw in this show. I understand that Ben can't just spill the beans in one episode, but it's the writers' fault that they are in this situation, with characters who can't speak naturally and are ridiculously enigmatic.

Yeah thats what I feel too. The episode was okay, but because the writers have this big mystery that can't be revealed til the last episode, they are forcing the characters to act and talk in uncomprenendable ways.

Locke wanting to stay on the island, fine, stay, go run into the jungle and stay, but to condemn the rest of the plane crash survivors to a life there just because he wants to is just ridiculous! It makes him either the most selfish SOB or he knows exactly what is going on and isn't saying.

Either way, me as a viewer can't get behind accepting his behavior based on the littel we know of what is going on. The only thing that would make his actions okay were if he were to know that everyone is already dead. And if that is the answer, I will seriously be pissed off! So I keep watching the show hoping that the final answer will make the last three years worth it, and yet knowing in the depth of my soul, it won't be and getting pissed off by what I am seeing!

As a parent if I found out that Locke forced my child that I thought was dead to stay on a deserted island because he wanted to walk, I honestly would kill him. Don't forget there were several children on that plane who must have parents or other family looking for them. And all the other people who all have family waiting for them back home, left to spend the rest of their lives on this island just because Locke wants to commune with the island.

BAH! Makes NO kind of sense.

Other than that whole nothing making sense or the characters continually acting like complete idiots, it wasn't a bad episode, and the acting was great given the material they had to work with....

Mostly, though, I agree with Felaries that I am getting tired of Ben and the Others. I'm pretty much over Ben. The character is intriguing in theory, but as it plays out, he's just annoying and nonsensical.


I've been thinking the same thing for awhile. His slow tone and wide-eyed hesitant delivery is getting really annoying. He seems like some ridiculous comic book villian.




Locke wanting to stay on the island, fine, stay, go run into the jungle and stay, but to condemn the rest of the plane crash survivors to a life there just because he wants to is just ridiculous! It makes him either the most selfish SOB or he knows exactly what is going on and isn't saying.



Yeah, it makes no sense. The whole thing is so contrived and ridiculous. It reminds me of Michael shooting Ana Lucia. Michael didn't have to kill her to accomplish his goal but TPTB chose to have him kill her for the sake of the contrived plot and for shock value.

Now we have Locke screwing over everyone when he doesn't have to. What is he planning on doing? Sabotaging every means of communication and escape and then living on the island with all the people he screwed over?

Am I missing something?

Didnt Michael and Walt leave on a boat? Don they have other boats like the one they rode over on from Island #2?

Why is it now all of a sudden that you need a submarine to leave the island and ben says "its the only way off"?

(sorry, didnt see there was already a thread devoted to this. Im just so sick of this show that I dont even read the threads anymore.)

Am I missing something?

Didnt Michael and Walt leave on a boat? Don they have other boats like the one they rode over on from Island #2?

Why is it now all of a sudden that you need a submarine to leave the island and ben says "its the only way off"?

(sorry, didnt see there was already a thread devoted to this. Im just so sick of this show that I dont even read the threads anymore.)


Ben said something about things changing since the incident with the sky turning purple. You may have missed it because Ben speaks in vague comic book villian dialogue.

Ben said something about things changing since the incident with the sky turning purple. You may have missed it because Ben speaks in vague comic book villian dialogue.

OK. I probably missed it because the writers have forced me to "check my brain at the door" every time I watch this train wreck of a show.

You cant watch it and think logically or critically, because you would drive yourself insane. All of the things that dont make sense and have no connection are 1000-1 over the things that do make sense and have a connection - and Im not smart enough to tell the difference so I just watch the show glazed over.

Definitely didn't love the episode. I was like That's IT? at the end. Meh.

Love TOQ, getting sick of Locke and his own agenda. He's selfish selfish selfish. He can be the big bad hunter dude he always dreamed of being on the island and who cares what anyone else wants. So he blows up hatches, preventing them from getting any information. And he blows up the sub to stay on the island. WTF? Let everyone else leave and frickin STAY on craphole island if that's what you want, but don't make the decision for everyone! And I'm getting sick of how easily Locke is manipulated, too.

Didn't love it and you can't make me. While the acting was great and the actors great the story line was just to "jump the whatever" for me.
I mean, Danielle goes all the way to Otherville and then hides evertime someones around. Why did she bother? I have ideas but they are for elsewhere.
Then John blows up a submarine when he's told that Ben really wants this.
Then Cooper shows up outta the blue or the "box"......pleeze

come on next week.

My favorite part about the Magic Box was how close TPTB actually came to introducing the Magic Turtle.

Every time you think this show has reached a new low in ridiculously unnecessary ambiguity and vagueness, they prove you wrong.

A Magic Box. Yep, a flippin' Magic Box. :rolleyes:\

BTW, while I'm still not ready to give up my "Danielle is (or was) an Other" explanation, how in the heck does Danielle spend 16 years on the island presumably searching for Alex, and it was that easy to find her (chop a tree down and climb over the sonic fence)?? Ugh. Yeah, makes more sense to kidnap someone else's baby and
try and make a trade... 16 years later.

Either she is an Other (which would now mean Alex is lying, too), or she's known Alex was there the whole time and purposefully didn't look for her (which doesn't explain the attempted the attempted trade), or she's as dumb as the rest of the Islanders. Either way I sense a ridiculously unnecessarily complex and convoluted ambiguously vague answer coming with respect to Danielle's relationship to Alex.

And this show wouldn't have it any other way...

My favorite part about the Magic Box was how close TPTB actually came to introducing the Magic Turtle.

Every time you think this show has reached a new low in ridiculously unnecessary ambiguity and vagueness, they prove you wrong.

A Magic Box. Yep, a flippin' Magic Box. :rolleyes:\


Well Malachy I think we all know who guards the magic box. That's right... the Magic Turtle. Look for him in the finale.






BTW, while I'm still not ready to give up my "Danielle is (or was) an Other" explanation, how in the heck does Danielle spend 16 years on the island presumably searching for Alex, and it was that easy to find her (chop a tree down and climb over the sonic fence)?? Ugh. Yeah, makes more sense to kidnap someone else's baby and
try and make a trade... 16 years later.

Either she is an Other (which would now mean Alex is lying, too), or she's known Alex was there the whole time and purposefully didn't look for her (which doesn't explain the attempted the attempted trade), or she's as dumb as the rest of the Islanders. Either way I sense a ridiculously unnecessarily complex and convoluted ambiguously vague answer coming with respect to Danielle's relationship to Alex.

And this show wouldn't have it any other way...


Yeah, how does Danielle spend 16 years there and not find find Alex? How all this plays out could get very ridiculous.

they are forcing the characters to act and talk in uncomprenendable ways.
:105: Eh?

I agree with everyone else's feelings, but I have to say in a story set on Fairy Tale Island, you've got to go along with the fairy tale bits. I mean, I remember people nitpicking the recent King Kong film; like, how come the ice didn't break when Kong went on the frozen lake? Come on! It's a film about a 40-FOOT APE, for Gawd's; how's it going to make sense?

Also, Ben's a complete liar. Who knows what 'magic box' meant? He told Jack that he'd let Kate and Sayid go, "Just as soon as (Jack had) left the island", knowing Locke was going to blow up the sub. He also told Michael to follow a bearing of 325 and he would, "Find rescue". What did that mean? A bearing of 325 would land him on The Island Of Charismatic Christians?

Speaking of Ben, I love him now. It's his sarcastic understatement. It's like he's the voice of the audience taking the piss out of what's going on!

But what I really didn't like about this episode (and some others) was the hint that maybe Locke hadn't blown up the sub. In a mystery show, I can go along with all the other weaknesses that the rest of you have described; you know, if it's a whodunnit, you want the identity of the killer to be concealed.

But if Locke hasn't blown up the sub, why couldn't we see what he did? It can only be to contrive another 'plot twist' sometime in the future. That's just cheap!

I didn't hate the show but I didn't particularly like it either. Cooper causing Locke's paralysis wasn't just anti-climatic, it was superfluous. Cooper had already all but killed Locke in all but the flesh itself - Locke had become a joyless, loveless, lifeless, soulless husk disabled with severe depression and living in a tiny, isolated, dingy box of an apartment. At the point of last night's flashback, Cooper's greater crime was failing to kill Locke not paralyzing him. Anyway, after 3 years of expectation and TPTB teases, the payoff was remarkably pedestrian. If that's all TPTB had in their bag, they'd been better off never revealing the source of Locke's paralysis; then it would always have been a source of speculation and mystery. Oh, and the whole closing scene which ended up with Locke opening a door and seeing Cooper tied-up - wasn't all that either. With everything we've already seen over 2 1/2 seasons, it would have been more surprising if Cooper wasn't behind the door.

Also, the shows with the "Others" just don't work well. They're this year's "Tailie" shows, only more convoluted. Everything is a con game inside another con game which is part of a bigger con game that's going to set-up an even bigger con game. Frankly, if Ben can keep track of all his various cons and where they currently stand he should be a Bond supervillain or a commodities day-trader; something that would provide him with an appropriately difficult intellectual challenge. For me, unraveling the tangled web of interconnected con games and making some sense from it all, I end up distrusting large portions off the show's flashbacks, actual behaviors and motivations of the characters, and any surface interpretation of any event in the show - flashback or island time.

Again, I don't think the show was really all that bad so much as i think the reveals weren't particularly exciting.

My favorite part about the Magic Box was how close TPTB actually came to introducing the Magic Turtle.

Every time you think this show has reached a new low in ridiculously unnecessary ambiguity and vagueness, they prove you wrong.

A Magic Box. Yep, a flippin' Magic Box. :rolleyes:\

BTW, while I'm still not ready to give up my "Danielle is (or was) an Other" explanation, how in the heck does Danielle spend 16 years on the island presumably searching for Alex, and it was that easy to find her (chop a tree down and climb over the sonic fence)?? Ugh. Yeah, makes more sense to kidnap someone else's baby and
try and make a trade... 16 years later.

Either she is an Other (which would now mean Alex is lying, too), or she's known Alex was there the whole time and purposefully didn't look for her (which doesn't explain the attempted the attempted trade), or she's as dumb as the rest of the Islanders. Either way I sense a ridiculously unnecessarily complex and convoluted ambiguously vague answer coming with respect to Danielle's relationship to Alex.

And this show wouldn't have it any other way...


My thoughts exactly. As for Danielle, I too am wondering about whether or not she is an other. She allows 16 years to pass before she even makes an effort to try and locate her daughter and when she sees her all she does is hide. How big is the island anyway?

At the end of the episode I was absolutely certain that they were going to cut out before they revealed what was on the other side of that d**n door, and DEAR GOD I wish they had. I mean, come on! His dad?! There is absolutely no way to explain that that is not unbelievably hokey. There's an expression that these guys should know, something profound, what was it... Oh yeah! When you're in a hole, stop digging! Bah.

Anyway, right now I can't decide what I'm more irritated about: dad behind the d**n door; the stupid Locke submarine shenanigans; or the surviveable 8 floor drop. (Attached to that last one is: (1) they apparently didn't use shatterproof glass/plastic in that snazzy all-window condo, and (2) daddy didn't go flying with him even though he got that kind of momentum going).

Then again, maybe daddy did go flying onto the pavement but Locke's in denial. Luckily the magic box is there and it allows him to make it right by providing him with what he subconsciously needs (his dad) so Locke can kill him, and then what's in his mind will match reality, i.e. his dad will be dead in both places.

See what I mean about the whole hole-digging thing?

I enjoyed the episode a lot less than "Enter 77" and "Par Avion"... The show felt like it was on a roll, partly because those episodes had a distinct purpose... I could see where the characters were headed, in their quest to find the Others settlement and rescue Jack.

The end of this episode felt a little like a dead end; I'm not sure where the story is headed now and I'm not that excited to find out. I wasn't spoiled to the ending, but I wasn't wowed like I was last week.

I was also annoyed at Locke's selfishness, so much so that I didn't feel much when he was pushed out of the window. Ben is always getting what he wants, and I'm a little tired of that.

Oh well, I'm sure things will change next week and I'll become intrigued again. I was disappointed with "Stranger..." and "Tricia Tanaka...", but then got two great episodes after that. Again, there were lots of great moments in this episode too.

My favorite part about the Magic Box was how close TPTB actually came to introducing the Magic Turtle.

That was a good one! :biggrin: For those who didnt get it watch this Click Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRp8N5jS3R4)

John Lockes reason for not leaving the island is that he is afraid of his father? That his father wont find him if he is on this island? WHAT WAS THAT? Cooper was never after John after he stole his kidney. John followed him (for whatever rasons).

More additions to the Eternal-LOST-Quesiton-Bank! (But I liked this episode)

I think you guys are too hung up on taking "the magic box" literally...for whatever reason, that was the way Ben chose to describe his "surprise"...

That was a good one! :biggrin: For those who didnt get it watch this Click Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRp8N5jS3R4)

John Lockes reason for not leaving the island is that he is afraid of his father? That his father wont find him if he is on this island? WHAT WAS THAT? Cooper was never after John after he stole his kidney. John followed him (for whatever rasons).

More additions to the Eternal-LOST-Quesiton-Bank! (But I liked this episode)



That was funny :biggrin:
Locke's father being in the magic box was really I dont know (but I could think of a few words). I think Locke's father did survive, because don't the cops mention that they are looking for him.

It was really annoying that the plot didn't seem to be furthered in this eppy. And Locke's dear 'ol dad showing up at the end only raises more questions, which, in all likelihood, won't be answred to any real satisfaction for some time....sheesh!

However, the dialogue between Locke and Ben was superb. Ben kept trying to bait Locke by appealing to Locke's emotional baggage, which Locke only gave into a little bit. Ultimately, Locke's reason prevailed until, perhaps, he saw his dad.

What I didn't like about that exchange is that it appeared to maybe be a counter-con by Ben, in that Ben possibly wanted the sub blown up after all. That's the problem....the endless ambiguity of these scenes and situations. The fans are being conned, too, in that we never really know what the heck is going on.

I liked the scene in the hospital, as it reminded me of when I worked with disabled patients on a hospital rehab unit. The way in which the caregiver transferred Locke from the bed to the wheelchair was not standard practice, but it was effective in highlighting Locke's plight and fears in regards to his situation.

I was prepared to rate this episode higher than I have been rating them in the past...until the end. Locke's father on the island? Please.

The story is not advancing fast enough for me. I may finish out this season and then that's it for me, that is, IF the show even returns after this season.

OK. I probably missed it because the writers have forced me to "check my brain at the door" every time I watch this train wreck of a show.

You cant watch it and think logically or critically, because you would drive yourself insane. All of the things that dont make sense and have no connection are 1000-1 over the things that do make sense and have a connection - and Im not smart enough to tell the difference so I just watch the show glazed over.vanzack, this is perfect. Exactly the way I watch the show now.

If you do check your brain and let events come at you without questioning them, you can have fun looking at mostly enjoyable actors for 45 minutes and being mildly surprised when the show pulls stuff out of a hat.

I used to rewind my DVR and look at stuff but I haven't done that all season.

One thing I was thinking about while watching (bad brain! down!): how Terry O'Quinn carries himself as Locke the Hunter. Totally believable as a very poised self-assured commando type Locke, now how in the world did the Locke we've seen in back story ever become that person? There is NOTHING to suggest he was anything but a pathetic wimp ... you don't just suddenly become Locke the Hunter even if you go from wheelchair to walking ... guess there's still some missing backstory about how John learned to be tough after he got paralyzed ...

Anyhow, I just watched it like somene flipping the pages of a comic book, what's coming next, could be anything, nothing is logical, there are hints supposed to be tantalizing, at any moment you could go down some completely new road. Mr. Toad's Wild Ride, the ride is the point. You can't even treat these characters to analysis based on psychological verisimilitude -- they're like Gumby, the writers stretch 'em around and contort 'em and it's all elastic. Stop being so anal-retentive! ;)

(in the off chance this could be taken as arguing with those who didn't love it, no no, I always post in this thread, this is just my brain on LOST SEASON 3, it's kind of like "A Wrinkle in Time" when Charles is in the grasp of the malignant brain and they struggle to THINK but it gets harder and harder and they see how easy and happy it could be to succumb) :drowsy:

Wow. Ben and Locke acting was ok, but Cooper's acting in that appartment ° . O
Camera angles wre off again, music scores wre just tear-jerking my brain out and then badly cut between scenes. 's anyone supervising the post-production team?

I had a real hard time liking this episode, because TPTB said at the end of last season that they decided to keep the Ben character since the TV audience like the character. However, during the first season TPTB said the main story was mapped out from the beginning.

Then during season 3 we get a Locke centric episode that explains the Locke story and it relies almost entirely on Locke's relationship to his estranged father and his relationship and interaction with Ben. But Ben really isn't suppose to be part of the story. He is an extra that was kept around to please the general public.

I'm trying to figure out if TPTB had another character in mind for one of the leaders of the "others", but after seeing how much the TV viewers liked Ben TPTB decided "you know what, I guess that Ben guy will do"... "let's just stick with him".

One thing I was thinking about while watching (bad brain! down!): how Terry O'Quinn carries himself as Locke the Hunter. Totally believable as a very poised self-assured commando type Locke, now how in the world did the Locke we've seen in back story ever become that person? There is NOTHING to suggest he was anything but a pathetic wimp ... you don't just suddenly become Locke the Hunter even if you go from wheelchair to walking ... guess there's still some missing backstory about how John learned to be tough after he got paralyzed ...

I've seen loads of comments about Locke wanting revenge on Cooper. Where does that come from?

In his flashbacks, Locke's attitude seemed to swing from love, to anger, to forgiveness, to rising above it. Then he ends up in a wheelchair and, presumably, hasn't seen Cooper since. I'd have said he's pretty much gotten over his Daddy issues.

That remark from his careworker, about surviving a fall from 8 storeys so, "I don't want to hear about what you can't do". That was Locke's defiant mantra in his wheelchair flashbacks. You could argue that it was the challenge of being in a wheelchair that changed Locke from a wimp-type, totally dependent on the opinions of others, into a self-reliant, all-action Rambo man. Then, when he gets the use of his legs back - what an opportunity!

I thought this episode was pretty much beyond horrible. I finally got the chance to watch the episode last night and couldn't stop rolling my eyes the entire time. Locke's backstory was stupid and I honestly laughed when his dad pushed him out the window. Is that really the best they could come up with me. It seemed to me that they tried to hard to think of something that would be cool and failed miserably. I'm bored to tears with the stolen kidney crap and am really annoyed that the paralysis had to come from that. When Locke started crying in the wheelchair, I found myself not caring and didn't feel bad for him at all. I think after three seasons of knowing he was in the wheelchair, seeing it happen did nothing for me.

On island, boring, boring, boring! Why the hell does Locke think that just because he doesn't want to leave he needs to thwart everyone else's attempts. That is so selfish of him and something I've never understood. Kate and Jack was beyond cheesy and annoying as anything b/c I'm so sick of that stupid love triangle.

Ben's story about the magic box was the dumbest thing that's ever come out of this show, until I saw Locke's dad tied up behind that door. Are you kidding me?? My jaw droped b/c I couldn't believe Lost actually went there. Seemed more like something I'd watch on Desperate Housewives. So, so stupid.

Honeslty, I hate Locke these days, but I tried to go into this episode with an open mind and not let me dislike for him ruin the episode, but it turns out the episode was willing to ruin itself. It only made me hate Locke all the more. Such a terrible episode, probably will go down as my least favorite (even worse than Whatever the Case May Be, and I didn't think anything could beat that). The only good part was Sayid telling Alex she looked like her mother and Danielle seeing her. I hope to forgetting this very soon.

Interesting to read everyone's opinions in this thread, made me rethink some things about this episode.

The main thing which bugged me about it was how Locke and Alex got to the sub. Seemed like a big error, as has been discussed in various threads. Most of the stuff which is confusing to me, I am just hoping gets explained. I can enjoy it for the time being, but more and more I am concerned that it's not going to be resolved. I mean, put Kate in handcuffs and leave her unguarded in a room, just seems like a really lame way to keep her captured, whilst Sayid is properly chained to a pole; that's how it should be done, he's not going anywhere soon.

Ben talking about 'blah I keep my word, respect, need to keep the respect of the others' stuff. Again, maybe it'll just come out later that Ben never really says anything truthful and is always full of it. But, if he's being serious here, then it's pretty contradictory, as there have been several times that he's gone against his 'code' or whatever.

Also think that Locke made a lot of dumb moves, which did pay off for him, but were still dumb. He goes in to Ben's room; what if Ben were alone and Alex didn't come in? How would he have got the C4 then? Alex comes blundering in, he takes her hostage. Fair enough... but then he tells her to go get the C4 and trusts her. I was kind of like 'wha' because it seemed pretty unlikely to work out. I guess she would be worried about her dad, but Locke barely knows her; he doesn't even know if Ben really is her dad. It seemed like she could easiliy have just run away, or worse, gone and got 10 Others to come with AK 47s to kill Locke.

Also, John takes Ben out of the bed and into a wheelchair. 'Let me have some dignity'. John has just infiltrated Ben's house, put a gun to his head, then put a gun to his daughter's head, and now he's like 'aw poor ben, i guess I'll put him in a chair'. I thought that Ben was going to cross him then, steal his gun or something, or do a DDT out of the bed, who knows. If it was me, I would have stayed away from Ben altogether and just had the gun on him, and kept telling him to shut up until I got the C4. I had no problem with John taking out the sub, I really don't think it's just because he wants to stay on the island - he didn't say that's why he did it. Also, magic box - wait and see. I didn't have a problem with that, who knows what the hell he was talking about.

i can always depend on threads like this to
give me a good dose of reality.

three things i found frustrating about this eps.

1. the music was way over the top.
too hyper-dramatic. to me it means
the eps is not a strong one
and the producers are desperate to pull
the viewer's emotions because
the story cannot.

2. ben really speaks like a bad comic book villain.
yet, he has a way with locke - he knows he can
control locke's emotions. he knows how to
pull locke's strings because...

3. locke is so extremely gullible.
at first i thought he finally grew a pair
because he acted all brave when he
encountered ben. but then ben started
pulling that obe-wan crap and once again
locke was wrapped around his little finger.

also, there is a pattern to locke's actions.
it seems like everything he does ends up
being a big frack-up.

yeah, that sounds good. locke is a big gullible frack-up.

geez, that feels good saying that.

I had a real hard time liking this episode, because TPTB said at the end of last season that they decided to keep the Ben character since the TV audience like the character. However, during the first season TPTB said the main story was mapped out from the beginning.

Then during season 3 we get a Locke centric episode that explains the Locke story and it relies almost entirely on Locke's relationship to his estranged father and his relationship and interaction with Ben. But Ben really isn't suppose to be part of the story. He is an extra that was kept around to please the general public.

I'm trying to figure out if TPTB had another character in mind for one of the leaders of the "others", but after seeing how much the TV viewers liked Ben TPTB decided "you know what, I guess that Ben guy will do"... "let's just stick with him".

I second that. I enjoyed the episode, except for Ben. I am thoroughly disgusted with the way the character was kept in the series beyond his alloted time. During the first season, I really believed that they had everything mapped out from beginning to end. But with this kind of stuff, it makes me feel like they've been giving into fans demans, like the Libby-Hurley romance, and making up most of the story as they go along since the Season 1 finale.

I second that. I enjoyed the episode, except for Ben. I am thoroughly disgusted with the way the character was kept in the series beyond his alloted time. During the first season, I really believed that they had everything mapped out from beginning to end. But with this kind of stuff, it makes me feel like they've been giving into fans demans, like the Libby-Hurley romance, and making up most of the story as they go along since the Season 1 finale.

Can you, or somebody else, give me a link to an interview where they said that Ben wasn't intended to stick around this long? That is pretty lame if it's true, pretty much shows that large sections and key points of the story have been altered :frown:

I would bet a million bucks they did NOT have it mapped out. They lie all the time.

Can you, or somebody else, give me a link to an interview where they said that Ben wasn't intended to stick around this long? That is pretty lame if it's true, pretty much shows that large sections and key points of the story have been altered :frown:

I'll have to do some research. I remember either hearing it in one of the podcasts or reading about it last season. I seem to remember that he was only supposed to be on the show for 6 episodes, or something like that. If that's true, then the whole subplot of the tumor removal is just a by-product because people really liked the "Got any milk" bit.

Not only that, but there was that whole big fiasco when David Fury left. A good bit of my confidence went with him.


Just found something. It's wikipedia, so I don't know if it's solid evidence. They say he was only contracted for 3 episodes, then the prodcuers were so impressed that they decided to give him another 5. Then I guess everyone in the fan community was going gaga for him, they came up with this season's plot. It's too bad, really.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Linus

thanks pibbsneaker for the link.

i'm going to wiki more often for lost info.

Although I liked the episode, such fan induced changes bug me too. What is planned then? Probably that 3rd season will be about Others. I don't think they had even thought about how the captivity story would've played out when they wrote 2nd season finale. Did Ben have a tumor last season?? I don't think so. I love ME but I really don't like "let's put together everything the internet fans love" approach. For small things I can accept that but a character story for a full season, that's really an example of "writing as they go along".

Although I liked the episode, such fan induced changes bug me too. What is planned then? Probably that 3rd season will be about Others. I don't think they had even thought about how the captivity story would've played out when they wrote 2nd season finale. Did Ben have a tumor last season?? I don't think so. I love ME but I really don't like "let's put together everything the internet fans love" approach. For small things I can accept that but a character story for a full season, that's really an example of "writing as they go along".

Yeah, I think there has been proof that they're writing as they go along and catering to the online fans and Ben is a great example of that as well as the introduction of the tailies that didn't work out.:rolleyes:

Just found something. It's wikipedia, so I don't know if it's solid evidence. They say he was only contracted for 3 episodes, then the prodcuers were so impressed that they decided to give him another 5. Then I guess everyone in the fan community was going gaga for him, they came up with this season's plot. It's too bad, really.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Linus

Thanks for that. Ah man. I don't understand fanboys at all. This kind of info clearly demonstrates that very important pieces of the story are up for alteration. I mean, I love Ben, I think he is fantastic, and Mikey's acting is superb. I guess it is a struggle between artistic vision, and ratings, it is a shame!

Although I liked the episode, such fan induced changes bug me too. What is planned then? Probably that 3rd season will be about Others. I don't think they had even thought about how the captivity story would've played out when they wrote 2nd season finale. Did Ben have a tumor last season?? I don't think so. I love ME but I really don't like "let's put together everything the internet fans love" approach. For small things I can accept that but a character story for a full season, that's really an example of "writing as they go along".

Precisely!

From this week's podcast:

Cuse: "...honestly, if Emerson had not been great or if we had an actor in that part who hadn't worked out, we could have still done the same stories but we would have had another character established among the Others who would have fulfilled the same functions, captured our characters and the storyline would have continued ... it was always our intention and the reason we went to great lengths in selecting Michael Emerson. ... It was always our intention that if he was as good as we hoped he would be in the part, that that would be the cool reveal."

From this week's podcast:

Cuse: "...honestly, if Emerson had not been great or if we had an actor in that part who hadn't worked out, we could have still done the same stories but we would have had another character established among the Others who would have fulfilled the same functions, captured our characters and the storyline would have continued ... it was always our intention and the reason we went to great lengths in selecting Michael Emerson. ... It was always our intention that if he was as good as we hoped he would be in the part, that that would be the cool reveal."

If that's true, then that's fine with me, that is reasonable

From this week's podcast:

Cuse: "...honestly, if Emerson had not been great or if we had an actor in that part who hadn't worked out, we could have still done the same stories but we would have had another character established among the Others who would have fulfilled the same functions, captured our characters and the storyline would have continued ... it was always our intention and the reason we went to great lengths in selecting Michael Emerson. ... It was always our intention that if he was as good as we hoped he would be in the part, that that would be the cool reveal."

I'm not convinced...

Sure... :)

I quite agree with most of this.

Locke's backstory was stupid and I honestly laughed when his dad pushed him out the window. Is that really the best they could come up with me. It seemed to me that they tried to hard to think of something that would be cool and failed miserably.

On island, boring, boring, boring! Why the hell does Locke think that just because he doesn't want to leave he needs to thwart everyone else's attempts. That is so selfish of him and something I've never understood. Kate and Jack was beyond cheesy and annoying as anything b/c I'm so sick of that stupid love triangle.

Honeslty, I hate Locke these days, but I tried to go into this episode with an open mind and not let me dislike for him ruin the episode, but it turns out the episode was willing to ruin itself. It only made me hate Locke all the more.