Didn't like the ep? Tell us why. :biggrin:






This thread is for those that did NOT like the episode. If you liked the ep please visit the "Loved it!!!" thread. If you want to debate the episode (likes and dislikes), then please take your comments to the "Rate and Debate" thread or start your own topic. Any off topic posts will be deleted and possibly warned or given infraction points.

OK, I didn't like it because it made our Losties seem so gullible. Especially Jack. It wasn't a terrible episode, but it made me say "common".

I don't think it helped that the press is saying that big reveals are coming up. What was revealed tonight is pretty much what everyone was already thinking.

I'd give it 7 of ten. I actually enjoyed Expose better. I think there were more reveals in that one.

Just to mention the things I didn't like:

I'm starting to hate Jack for being so thick and putting the Losties in danger.

I feel like we were given an hour of answers only to have them all take away when we found out Juliet was lying

I hate that we still don't know why they took Claire. Now we find out they gave her an implant to make her sick and don't know why. More questions than answers.

Just to mention the things I didn't like:

I'm starting to hate Jack for being so thick and putting the Losties in danger.

I feel like we were given an hour of answers only to have them all take away when we found out Juliet was lying

I hate that we still don't know why they took Claire. Now we find out they gave her an implant to make her sick and don't know why. More questions than answers.

I'm not so sure. I think TPTB will probably confirm in one of their podcasts that Juliette, like Mikail, was basically telling the truth, except for one major lie that crouches its context (i.e., Mikail was not a member of the Dharma Initiative, and in this case, Juliette knew why Claire was sick and lied about it--and her being "banished" by the Others).

I think we did get an answer to why the Others were so interested in Claire and her baby, and why she was kidnapped. Pretty simple actually. For some unknown reason pregnant women and their unborn babies die on the island, making procreation to sustain its population impossible (and recruitment of outsiders necessary to maintain their little community).

The Others kidnapped Claire (I even believe Ethan "improvised" and taking her wasn't part of the plan at least at that moment, but surely he had some help from fellow Others to string Charlie up and abscond with Claire), and it would seem they intended to perform a c-section and remove Claire's unborn baby from her womb. Heck, maybe they didn't even intend to murder Claire, and Alex's reaction and attempt to rescue Claire was because she assumed their procedure would end the same way their previous ones had (with both mother and unborn child dead).

I'll even go one step further and say that maybe Juliette was also telling the truth that she had created some sort of serum to try and counter-act the island's effects and save Claire's life, and this is what Ethan was injecting her with.

And we even saw that the Others release of Jack, Kate and Sayid (and Juliette's presence among them) was a calculated plot by Henry. (Which at least explains last week's contrived and nonsensical plot.)

Like I said, I think TPTB will probably have to go on one of their podcasts and confirm everything, because as usual they failed to clearly convey a plot point through their actual story telling, but it does, IMO, count as giving their audience "answers".

As usual, those answers are boring, mundane, unimaginative, and rather simple (kinda like the plane crashing because of "wrong place, wrong time"), and took way too long (more than two years) to provide, but at least they're answers.

Really, the only questions to remain after this episode in terms of the plots points it touched were:

1. Did "Jacob" really cure Juliette's sister or was it all a lie by Henry to keep Juliette working on the island? (I vote the latter.)

2. What did Juliette "implant" into Claire (and why) that allows the Others the ability to make her sick? (And do we care?)

3. Is Juliette cooperating with Henry because she has her own agenda or because she's really an Other? (I vote the former.)

4. Why does getting pregnant kill mothers and their unborn children? (This is the big one.)

As to Jack's gullibility and the last question:

5. Does Jack really trust Juliette or is he playing her?

As someone who loved Jack's defiance and outmaneuvering of the Others at the end of the mini-season, I'd really hate to see him turn into a moron again. So I'm hoping that he's smarter than he's acting. I know it's a long shot (hoping for intelligence among the characters of Lost), but I can dream can't I? ;)

It was a good solid episode with a lot of cool moments, but I was expecting more from all the hype. The supposed mind-blowing ending wasn't mind-blowing at all--it pretty much confirmed what everyone already figured.

But having said that, it was a very enjoyable episode...I just don't quite agree with the lovefest going on at the loved it thread.

I think we did get an answer to why the Others were so interested in Claire and her baby, and why she was kidnapped. Pretty simple actually. For some unknown reason pregnant women and their unborn babies die on the island, making procreation to sustain its population impossible (and recruitment of outsiders necessary to maintain their little community).

The Others kidnapped Claire (I even believe Ethan "improvised" and taking her wasn't part of the plan at least at that moment, but surely he had some help from fellow Others to string Charlie up and abscond with Claire), and it would seem they intended to perform a c-section and remove Claire's unborn baby from her womb. Heck, maybe they didn't even intend to murder Claire, and Alex's reaction and attempt to rescue Claire was because she assumed their procedure would end the same way their previous ones had (with both mother and unborn child dead).

But based on what we've seen that doesn't seem right. The entire time Claire was with Ethan, it was about convincing her to give the baby up to their "good family". They made a nursery for him and told her that the baby would have a happy life with them if she gave him up and once she did she would have to return to her camp and could never see him again. When they were done with Claire, whether they were going to kill her or not, they were going to take Aaron. This tells me it wasn't about saving pregnant women's lives, it was about stealing their babies.

Also, Juliet told more than one lie. For her to pass the story off about Claire being in danger, she had to say that even women who conceive off island die, and we know that's not true. Danielle had Alex. In the flashback it looked as though the danger begins at conception and has something to do with the island. So Claire was never in any danger when they abducted her and implanted her with a device to make her sick. The whole premise of taking Claire to help her was a lie. She lied about being left behind, about the actual danger to pregnant women on the island and to why they really wanted Claire. Seemed like it had more to do with Aaron.

So it's not that simple. Sun is in danger (possibly) but Claire never was. We really don't know anymore than we already did about that since we don't know why they take the children. I don't think this is like Mikhail. I think everything that Juliet says is a lie or at least a half truth. She's there on the beach at Ben's behest and after something else entirely. We found all that out in the last scene of the ep and it undid everything we were told throughout.

I didn't like that Sayid and Sawyer let Juliet get to them so easily. Sawyer of all people should have known better. Was he not inexplicably "locked" in a cage and then forced to dig holes and move rocks for 6 episodes? So, he's suspicious of Juliet, but as soon as she comments on his background, he backs off? What makes that any LESS suspicious? He KNOWS the Others know stuff about him, and he KNOWS that the Others are crazy, manipulative creeps! And Sayid, shame on you! Didn't the "Henry Gale" situation teach him anything? I am HOPING that these two don't lose focus because it was nice to see TWO characters acting an appropriate amount of suspicious and cautious for once.

Secondly, the last scene just made me angry. Yes, it was a spooky, "neat reveal," but..... why?! I'm tired of wasting my time listening to lies. It used to be that the writers would have us believe something about a character on our own (Shannon is a spoiled brat; Locke is a hardcore wilderness expert; Ana Lucia is a mean tyrant; etc.), and then some time later, we'd see their flashback and realize that what we assumed was not exactly the case. But at least we got to decide for ourselves. I, for one, always believed there was just a little bit more to Shannon then we were seeing. But now? We are straight up being told what to believe, and then when we are naive enough to fall for it, we get a last minute switcheroo -- an in your face "...Not!!!"

I just hope there is a good reason for Juliet to still be working with Ben because I'm just so tired of this infiltration business. I think it would have been more interesting to see Juliet genuinely integrate into the group of Survivors. That she is, indeed, a plant does not surprise me, but it disappoints me, because it's been done.

Really didn't like this one. The "plot twist" at the end was so obvious that Juliet should have been wearing a neon sign reading "I'm a spy. Ask me how." And watching Jack continue to be pigheaded to the detriment of everyone else is just getting tiring. This was another one of those "we're going to tell you things" epsiodes that - in the end - really didn't tell us anything. And did they really need to fill five minutes by replaying the beginning of A Tale of Two Cities? I saw the episode - I don't need to see it again.

I wondered how this would pan out. Pretty much what a good number of people were theorizing has held true, that Juliette is a spy. For a split second I had hoped that she might be a "good" person, but she's just like the rest of the Others. Granted she wants to go home, but I think that's the extent of her own agenda and depth of uniqueness from them. Given all the slight of hand tricks, lies, and manipulations that the Others have shown us, I don't believe that her sister's alive either.

The plot-twist was predictable. By and large it ruined any kind of momentum the episode was gaining since it seemed it was actually going in a particular direction. SSDD.

Edit: OH and why does everyone but the Others have to be so incredibly stupid?! Con artists, an interrogator, a doctor, a bilingualist (who's also somewhat cunning) and common sense! They're all present in that group but it seems the switch has been jammed in the off position. dubya-tee-eff.

Also, Juliet told more than one lie. For her to pass the story off about Claire being in danger, she had to say that even women who conceive off island die, and we know that's not true. Danielle had Alex. In the flashback it looked as though the danger begins at conception and has something to do with the island. So Claire was never in any danger when they abducted her and implanted her with a device to make her sick. The whole premise of taking Claire to help her was a lie. She lied about being left behind, about the actual danger to pregnant women on the island and to why they really wanted Claire. Seemed like it had more to do with Aaron.


Excellent point. I guess we'll have to chalk up Jack not thinking about how Danielle gave birth on the Island, and is still live and well, to how the Island is mysteriously eroding Jack's intelligence.

One of my bugaboos is how the scheme Ben devised for Juliette to infiltrate the Losties camp was so outlandish in its dependence on human behavior being entirely predictable, which it is not. We've seen that in movies and TV shows hundreds of times before and it is always ridiculous.

BEN: Let's go over it again just to be sure.
JULIETTE: I drag Austin out into the jungle. Handcuff myself to her.Then tell her I was gassed just like she was
BEN: And if she catches you in the lie?
JULIETTE: Then I'll admit to it.Tell her it was the only way to earn her trust.
BEN: Good. What then?
JULIETTE: They'll take me back to the beach.


Yeah, they'll take you back to the beach. But it seems to me the odds were just as likely they would have killed Juliette or maybe Sayid would return to his torturing ways. I suppose they were depending on Jack defending her, but how do the Others really know what is going on in Jack's mind? And that Kate would believe such a ridiculous thing as Juliette handcuffing herself to Kate because she did it to earn her trust? Who in the world would fall for that???

Then Ben says. "we activated the implant in Claire." and how they will have activated it a few hours prior to Juliettes arrival. Hey what about if Jack, Kate and Sayid decide to take their time returning to the beach. Would Claire be dead by the time they get back? And how about Juliette "confessing" to the prior injections done to Claire. Maybe Jack reacts differently and decides it's time for Sayid to get "involved" instead.

Another compalint of mine is when Juliette stymied Sayid and Sawyer by shaming them with their last deeds. Human nature as it is with these guys, it would have been just as likely they may have decided to knock her off or do something else dastardly, rather than have their secrets revealed to the rest of the camp. But with these type stories, it is right turns all the way and if Juliette instead decided to point in the distance and say "ohmigosh, look over there, guys", and then started to run away, it would have worked for her for as well. Quite convolued.

I won't get into how now we have Island story, flashbacks and now artificial-feeling expository debriefings to deal with.

Overall, I didn't hate the episode. Just thought it was a little "off"

I loved all the character interaction - great cuts and edits of folks giving each other all kinds of looks.

Wonderful stuff.

Completely ruined by the clunky expository dialogue and the beyond-stoopid "remote control implantable make her sick" device. Regarding the latter, I will say they rushed through that bit as quickly as possibly. Unfortunately not quick enough to keep it from stinking up the place.

A delayed release medication or device would have been plausible. It was the remote control bit that mucked it.

I'm torn. I enjoyed the information the episode provided, and the plot-advancement was significant, and positive. If I were just grading it on mystery progression and plot advancement and information provided, I'd probably give it a 9.

BUT...

This episode made me hate every character on the show except Locke, Sayid, and Sawyer. I already hated the Others. They're manipulative, secretive, psychotic, hostile, and we still don't know why.

Now I hate Jack. His attitude is disgusting and obnoxious.

And I hate the rest of the beachies for being absolute lemming fools and not a one of them questioning Jack or Juliet about anything.

So I don't know how I feel about the episode. It was informative and interesting, but absolutely maddening and aggravating.

Really didn't like this one. The "plot twist" at the end was so obvious that Juliet should have been wearing a neon sign reading "I'm a spy. Ask me how." .

This is Lost.

On Lost she would wear a shirt that said "Im a spy, DONT ask me how, and if you do I will just say 'its complicated' and move on anyway. But lets just keep to the script and dont ask me anything."

But based on what we've seen that doesn't seem right. The entire time Claire was with Ethan, it was about convincing her to give the baby up to their "good family".

Yeah, but think of that in the context of the show. Ben wanted Jack to perform his surgery, but rather than asking him to do so, or outright forcing him to do so, it seemed important to him that Jack choose to perform the surgery. (Even if he lied to him to get him to do so.)

Same thing with keeping Juliette on the island. He didn't force her to stay. Rather he may have lied to her, and manipulated her so it was her choice to stay.

Maybe this is how the Others justify some of the terrible things they do -- even if by manipulation and/or lying, if the person chooses to do what they want, then the Others haven't done anything wrong.

So Ethan drugs Claire and lies to her and is literally trying to steal her baby, but so long as Claire agrees to give up the baby (even if in a drug-induced stupor), then the Others retain their moral superiority.

They made a nursery for him and told her that the baby would have a happy life with them if she gave him up and once she did she would have to return to her camp and could never see him again. When they were done with Claire, whether they were going to kill her or not, they were going to take Aaron. This tells me it wasn't about saving pregnant women's lives, it was about stealing their babies.

Yeah, they wanted to keep Aaron (because new life seems important to them and they probably wanted to study him). And they may well have intended to do just that, save Claire and the baby, but keep the baby afterwards and return Claire to the 815ers (after they'd finished studying her). I think the ends to them were really about what they could learn from Claire and Aaron and use that to help their own community begin to procreate again.

Also, Juliet told more than one lie. For her to pass the story off about Claire being in danger, she had to say that even women who conceive off island die, and we know that's not true. Danielle had Alex.

We don't know that. First we don't know if Danielle even had a baby (on the island or off) or if Alex is really that child (if Danielle had a child). Danielle has been acting very suspiciously for pretty much the entire series and alot of her stories just don't make sense. She could be just as big a liar as the Others (heck, she could even be an Other).

Second, Juliette may have known nothing about Danielle or Alex's heritage. If Ben really did steal Alex from Danielle when she was an infant, in the interest of his maintaining this facade of being a "good person" he may have never told Juliette about it (obviously, if it happened, it was 13 years before Juliette even stepped foot on the island).

In the flashback it looked as though the danger begins at conception and has something to do with the island.

You're right there, but just not making the connections last night's episode intended.

Juliette hypothesized that the danger begins at conception, but then said without taking a woman off the island and seeing if the same result happened she couldn't really continue her research and prove that conclusion (that's when Ben told her about her sister's cancer relapse).

So in Claire, Juliette had her "control" case in the form of a woman who became pregnant off the island, but would remain pregnant (and hopefully give birth) on the island. If she couldn't take the control case off the island, the control case came to the island for her.

For all Juliette an the Others knew, Claire may have been in danger. Furthermore, Claire may have been Juliette's most important patient.

So Claire was never in any danger when they abducted her and implanted her with a device to make her sick. The whole premise of taking Claire to help her was a lie. She lied about being left behind, about the actual danger to pregnant women on the island and to why they really wanted Claire. Seemed like it had more to do with Aaron.

See above. I don't think her abduction or the reasons for it was a lie. And as far as the Others are concerned, their interest in Claire and Aaron are inexorably linked.


So it's not that simple. Sun is in danger (possibly) but Claire never was.

No, as far as the Others knew, they didn't know if Claire was in danger or not, but they proceeded with their study and medical plans as though she were.

We really don't know anymore than we already did about that since we don't know why they take the children.

Yeah, we probably know that now, too.

They took Claire (and her unborn baby) because of their problem with on-island reproduction.

They took the kids from the tail-section because they were "good people", just like the rest of their Tailie abductions who it appears they are now trying to integrate into their society.

We don't know why they took Walt. (Perhaps they were interested in his supposed "psychic" powers?)

And we don't know if they took Alex at all (or why). (Perhaps they were protecting her from her psychotic, murderous mother?)

The point being that I don't think there is one catch-all reason why the Others are taking kids. The Others just take people of all ages for a a variety of reasons.

I don't think this is like Mikhail. I think everything that Juliet says is a lie or at least a half truth. She's there on the beach at Ben's behest and after something else entirely. We found all that out in the last scene of the ep and it undid everything we were told throughout.

I disagree. I think the Juliette situation is exactly like Mikail's (boringly repetitive actually).

And I don't think Juliette's presence as a mole undid everything she said (and it certainly didn't undo everything TPTB deigned to show the audience through her eyes).
100%
I'm torn. I enjoyed the information the episode provided, and the plot-advancement was significant, and positive. If I were just grading it on mystery progression and plot advancement and information provided, I'd probably give it a 9.

BUT...

This episode made me hate every character on the show except Locke, Sayid, and Sawyer. I already hated the Others. They're manipulative, secretive, psychotic, hostile, and we still don't know why.

Now I hate Jack. His attitude is disgusting and obnoxious.

And I hate the rest of the beachies for being absolute lemming fools and not a one of them questioning Jack or Juliet about anything.

So I don't know how I feel about the episode. It was informative and interesting, but absolutely maddening and aggravating.

Well, you're going to be right about Jack if he really does trust Juliette (in which case he may overtake Claire for biggest moron on the island). But I'm holding out hope for him based on his terrific gamesmanship at the end of the mini-season when he got the upper hand on the Others during Ben's surgery.

If Jack is on to Juliette, and is playing her now, then I think what Jack is doing right now is cool and calculated.

And the rest of the 815ers weren't really lemming fools. Sun and Jin were very hostile toward her. Hurley was careful in his own way. And Kate, Sayid and Sawyer obviously made their intentions toward her known.

Who else is there?

Jack, who may be playing her. Charlie who is an idiot and was more concerned with Claire. And Claire who was sick all episode.

I liked this episode overall (especially after the last two bad-beyond-belief episodes) simple for its forward momentum. At this point in the show, the characters, story, and actual impact of the "answers" are almost beside the point (we pretty much know the answers are going to suck, because almost every answer they've provided to this point sucks). It's well past time to actually like these guys and buy into what their doing.

Rather it's about tying up the show's loose ends and providing answers and closures as we follow the series wind down into it's last season or two.

In that context, last night's episode delivered.

In the end, this show will be known as "the show that didn't ask questions". So Jack doesn't care to ask Juliet what's going on. It doesn't matter as long as she wants off the island as much as they do. I just want to scream when they do that. It's beyond annoying. I actually enjoyed the episode but every time it gets around to question time they do the same thing...either get interrupted, put in their place, or they don't care and go make a salad. Aaaarrggghhh!!!!

Well, you're going to be right about Jack if he really does trust Juliette (in which case he may overtake Claire for biggest moron on the island). But I'm holding out hope for him based on his terrific gamesmanship at the end of the mini-season when he got the upper hand on the Others during Ben's surgery.

If Jack is on to Juliette, and is playing her now, then I think what Jack is doing right now is cool and calculated.

True, but I think you're giving Jack too much credit. He has a history of being a trusting, uninquisitive dope.

And the rest of the 815ers weren't really lemming fools. Sun and Jin were very hostile toward her. Hurley was careful in his own way. And Kate, Sayid and Sawyer obviously made their intentions toward her known. No one asked her a single question (leaving out Sayid and Sawyer, as I excluded them from my list of lemmings anyway). No one. Not a single question. And why? Because Jack told them not to. That's a lemming. Jack says "Don't ask this person who knows everything about the island a single question because I said so", and it is done. Brutal.

Hurley wasn't careful, he was flirting, and she joked back with him. It was a decidedly bizarre scene, as though Hurley had forgotten what the Others had done.

Who else is there?

Jack, who may be playing her. Charlie who is an idiot and was more concerned with Claire. And Claire who was sick all episode.

Well, those folks and the rest of the survivors. I know they're red-shirts, but some of them might be curious to know what's really going on.

...Rather it's about tying up the show's loose ends and providing answers and closures as we follow the series wind down into it's last season or two.

In that context, last night's episode delivered.

True, but it was still maddening in that they have to compromise everyone's brain functions in order to accomplish anything.

True, but it was still maddening in that they have to compromise everyone's brain functions in order to accomplish anything.
I think it's easy for people to gloss over this because WE were able to see what it's been like to be on the island for Juliet. As a viewer, I felt like saying, "Come on, Sun, lighten up!" But the fact is that Sun and Jin et. al. don't know what we know. Juliet is Ethan in woman's clothing to them, as she should be.

But, you're absolutely right. Jack is being snowed. He's letting his "savior complex" cloud his vision -- it's just that this time, he's acting as Juliet's "savior." If I were Juliet, I'd feel all warm and fuzzy inside, but in reality, Jack is acting like a fool.

These people refuse to acknowledge the most evident things.

I think the post by Malachy is in the wrong thread!!!:confused:

I thought the episode was okay, but I had some major problems with it that kept me out of the liked it thread!

I loathed the scene with Sayid, Sawyer and Juliet, for yet again having a scene where someone tries to get an answer and the Other uses some kind of Jedi mind trick to get them to completely forget the questions! and then she just skates away without having to answer anything! They could have at least said how she needed Claire to live to gain the trust of the Losties, it was more important to Juliet to have Claire live...

Jack's whole, ignorance is bliss anger that anyone questions him vibe going on. He HAS to either have a plan or be working with them. I think the line where Juliet says they will take her back to the beach was because they had already arranged for Jack to insist on it....but until that is shown, I am not digging Jack right now!

The big reveal they promised us at the end of the episode...it just doesn't make sense! Most people didn't trust Juliet, so what was the big reveal?? That we shouldn't trust Juliet????

The reason tht Juliet gave for kidnapping Claire. She was the control????!!! So they were going to just keep sneaking up to her in the middle of the night and injecting her, making her crazy and have no one believe her? But hey, they were trying to save her life.

I am getting SO sick of the fact that these people are PLANE CRASH SURVIVORS!!!! keeps being pushed to the side. They didn't choose to come to the island, they have just been through a tramatic experience and I don't care how bad they were before the crash, that doesn't give anyone the RIGHT to do what they are doing to these people!!

I am really really worried that it will all be revealed that they were brought there on purpose and deserve what is happening to them, or even worse, it won't even be addressed cause Juliet didn't sound at ALL apologetic or empathic to how it looked when she was telling her story about what happened to Claire.

It was all

"You don't understand! You don't know the truth of what was happening...we were not going to hurt Claire, we were trying to save her life! So we strung Charlie up to die....and no don't ask any questions, cause you'd kill me if you knew, but don't you dare be mad at me for what you "think" is going on!! Don't get all moralistic on me, cause I know the bad things you have done in your life!! and that give me the right to act this way! Plus, we are really the good guys, you just don't get it!!! Duh, no I won't answer any questions, cause you can't handle the truth!!"

Okay, I am getting a tad ticked off with yet again having a non answer scene, and the more I think of it, the more pissed I get....even more so for the "bored tollerating the children" looks we get from all the Others whenever the Losties ask a question!

altough i didnt heavily dislike this episode I have to ask - ummm how did Juliet know Sawyer had killed someone the night before he got on the plane. Surely that wasnt in his records....and how would they have known - not from those damn screens.

No one asked her a single question (leaving out Sayid and Sawyer, as I excluded them from my list of lemmings anyway). No one. Not a single question. And why? Because Jack told them not to. That's a lemming. Jack says "Don't ask this person who knows everything about the island a single question because I said so", and it is done. Brutal.





Don't forget, Jack declared "She's under my protection!".

Would you want to defy his highness? And remember, we saw what happens when someone doesn't want to give Jack a tattoo. Jack get mad. Jack get real mad.


Let me explain...

Juliet was exiled from the Others. Jack runs the Castaway's Beach Embassy. So in all fairness, he was simply offering Juliet asylum under the Castaway's Island Constitution... which Jack wrote and ratified himself. "Emperors" can do that you know.





True, but it was still maddening in that they have to compromise everyone's brain functions in order to accomplish anything.


The characters have to be morons for the show to have a chance to work. Unfortunately, for many, the fact that the characters are such uninquisitive morons makes the show not work.




altough i didnt heavily dislike this episode I have to ask - ummm how did Juliet know Sawyer had killed someone the night before he got on the plane. Surely that wasnt in his records....and how would they have known - not from those damn screens.



Yeah. Apparently, the plane came down by accident when Desmond failed to push the button and yet the Others manage to get intimate details on the survivors lives? Can't wait to see how they explain this.

I also have to wonder how they would know anything about Sayid's time in the Republican Guard. It's not as though they kept records of who he tortured, why, and how...

Yeah. Apparently, the plane came down by accident when Desmond failed to push the button and yet the Others manage to get intimate details on the survivors lives? Can't wait to see how they explain this.

I'm thinking Smokie. He seems to be able to magically download people's darkest deeds.

The only major problem I had with this episode is the Claire sickness-bomb implant. Oy. It obviously works for this season's storyline, but it contradicts everything we learned in Maternity Leave in season 2.

The Others wanted Claire's baby. They were either going to kill her (according to Alex) or they were going to let her go (according to Ethan).

Ethan died trying to get Claire back after Alex helped her escape. But if they knew Juliet was going to infiltrate the Lostie's camp some months later (this is the ostensible reason for the implant) then why did Ethan give up his life trying to get Claire back?

Maybe they implant everyone with a sickness bomb -- just in case. A sort of "in case of emergency, activate hemmoragic fever" plot device. It would be an efficient way to control people. But I liked it better in "Escape from New York" circa 1980...

I'm thinking Smokie. He seems to be able to magically download people's darkest deeds.

The only problem I have with this is that the Others seem to be afraid and avoid Smokie. Even if Smokie does download Lostie's memories, it doesn't seem like the Others would have access to this information.

The only major problem I had with this episode is the Claire sickness-bomb implant. Oy. It obviously works for this season's storyline, but it contradicts everything we learned in Maternity Leave in season 2.


The Others wanted Claire's baby. They were either going to kill her (according to Alex) or they were going to let her go (according to Ethan).

Ethan died trying to get Claire back after Alex helped her escape. But if they knew Juliet was going to infiltrate the Lostie's camp some months later (this is the ostensible reason for the implant) then why did Ethan give up his life trying to get Claire back?


This is a huge hole in the storyline. Maybe TPTB think we are as thick as Jack.:huh:

"You don't understand! You don't know the truth of what was happening...we were not going to hurt Claire, we were trying to save her life! So we strung Charlie up to die....and no don't ask any questions, cause you'd kill me if you knew, but don't you dare be mad at me for what you "think" is going on!! Don't get all moralistic on me, cause I know the bad things you have done in your life!! and that give me the right to act this way! Plus, we are really the good guys, you just don't get it!!! Duh, no I won't answer any questions, cause you can't handle the truth!!"
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(additions)
Its not that simple...
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.
Its complicated...

Okay, I am getting a tad ticked off with yet again having a non answer scene, and the more I think of it, the more pissed I get....even more so for the "bored tollerating the children" looks we get from all the Others whenever the Losties ask a question!

That was a good 'un Semisan :-) I think even after a good episode we will always find bad things about Lost only because the writers unfortunately have turned Lost into a big spaghetti tangle!

Coming to think of what has become of a could-have-been-grippingly-beautiful Lost, I can only think of the words by Bilbo Baggins to Gandalf...

I feel...thin, sort of stretched ... like butter that has been scraped over too much bread

The only problem I have with this is that the Others seem to be afraid and avoid Smokie. Even if Smokie does download Lostie's memories, it doesn't seem like the Others would have access to this information.

The only major problem I had with this episode is the Claire sickness-bomb implant. Oy. It obviously works for this season's storyline, but it contradicts everything we learned in Maternity Leave in season 2.



This is a huge hole in the storyline. Maybe TPTB think we are as thick as Jack.:huh:



About the episode with Claire in season 2, I agree. I also agree about the huge gaping hole with this storyline. I am glad that I only watched it today. The inconsistancies in this show are so huge, you can drive a truck thru it.

About the episode with Claire in season 2, I agree. I also agree about the huge gaping hole with this storyline. I am glad that I only watched it today. The inconsistancies in this show are so huge, you can drive a truck thru it.

This just proves they didn't have it planned out from the beginning. All they had was what the island is and the rest is made up as they go along. I wish they'd just admit it.

All in all, not a horrible ep, but like many others posters here I am sick of the omnipresent reversals and undercuttings. TPTB should know that this trick should only be brought out for special occasions: if you do it all the time, people come to expect it, thus rendering it useless and making you look inept and uncreative.

The Sawyer/Sayid/Juliet scene was idiotic, but par for the course.

I'm not sure what to make of Ben's ire about being called a liar, considering that's all he does. I do, however, know that I'm thoroughly tired of the psychotic Others having no discernible motivations. Sure, they insinuate that there's a reason, but, seriously, 2 years of being totally incapable of understanding the major villain is ridiculous. Villains need to be either unseen (and thus mysterious and suspenseful) or they need to have comprehensible reasons for their actions. Otherwise they're just annoying.



Hurley wasn't careful, he was flirting, and she joked back with him. It was a decidedly bizarre scene, as though Hurley had forgotten what the Others had done.

This was actually one of the scenes that I liked. I thought Hurley was just going to be his usual accepting, laid-back self (and apparently Juliet did too), but the end was chilling:

"The last one of you guys who came over here... Ethan... He kidnapped Claire and Charlie got upset... We buried him over there"

Undertone: 'You pull something like that, we'll effin' kill you too and bury you right next to him.' The understatement in that scene was nicely done, I thought.

I'm thinking Smokie. He seems to be able to magically download people's darkest deeds.
He does, but that seems to not be where the Others get them. Ben was getting Mikhail to get "files" on all the passengers on the plane, so the information was apparently coming from the mainland -- presumably from their own private investigators.

The only major problem I had with this episode is the Claire sickness-bomb implant. Oy. It obviously works for this season's storyline, but it contradicts everything we learned in Maternity Leave in season 2.

The Others wanted Claire's baby. They were either going to kill her (according to Alex) or they were going to let her go (according to Ethan).

Ethan died trying to get Claire back after Alex helped her escape. But if they knew Juliet was going to infiltrate the Lostie's camp some months later (this is the ostensible reason for the implant) then why did Ethan give up his life trying to get Claire back?

I don't think it contradicts anything -- it just makes it make more sense. If all they wanted was the baby, why would Ethan be risking exposure by trying to serrepticiously perform tests on Clair in the middle of the night while she was sleeping? Rather we now fairly well understand the two things they needed Claire for: 1) They needed her baby, because the Others can't reproduce on their own, and 2) They needed a control-case to verify that the "Island Mother Death Syndrome" only affected the conception process.

I presume they gave her the implant just so they could use it if they ever needed it. After Ethan was killed, they put baby-kidnapping on the back-burner while they figured out a way to remove Ben's tumer without Ethan.
100%
This just proves they didn't have it planned out from the beginning. All they had was what the island is and the rest is made up as they go along. I wish they'd just admit it.
I don't think so. This ep made all the stuff with Ethan actually make sense. We now understand that besides needing babies to perpetuate their clan, they need test subjects to study the illness. And it also made good on all the season 1 references to Watership Down, which has only the difference that they needed females from the other clan rather than babies. If anything I think this proves that they knew this part of the story when they were making season 1.

Con, con, con, con, con, con, con! And now Juliet is probably doing a con within a con. Can we please give it a rest?! I burned out on cons many episodes ago. Move on to something else! TPTB have completely beat this tactic into the ground. Just throw some dirt over it and let it lie... I'm really worried now that what we're leading up to is just one gigantic con.

Also have to nitpick an error. Juliet injected Claire with a syringe that had a huge air bubble in it. That's a big no-no.

Did enjoy the scene with Hurley. That's something we haven't seen him do before; the underhanded threat.

I didn't appreciate the fact that throughout this entire show, Jack has been the responsible leader that looks out for the good of the group, even when things get unbelievable (whihc is happening more and more), now he loses his chance to get off the island and how does he react? He's now trusting a woman who held him prisoner and is putting everyone else in danger.

A little too much of a 180 in character, I think.

Also, I was excited about a Juliette backstory...but it was rushed through and answered no questions. Who cares that she was sleeping with the Tailies infiltrator? Why do we need to see the beginning of "Tale of Two Cities"?

And why did Sayid and Sawyer all of a sudden lose their balls?

I also find it hard to believe that no one in the camp would have sat down with Juliette and made her answer questions before even letting her set foot on the beach. That;s just common sense.

Way too many potential cons. If there isn't a final show down with the others on the losties home court by the end of the season, I am done.

So I guess Jack is REALLY dumb, or he is pulling off a con of his own.

So I guess Jack is REALLY dumb, or he is pulling off a con of his own.

Thank you! I am absolutely amazed at how much everyone thinks Jack is so stupid. We have no clue what is going on in that head of his or what he is up too. Maybe he is running his own con, maybe he is in on it with Juliet. My husband found it a little odd, that Kate having been gassed woke up, trekked through the jungle with Juliet, slept outside, outran the monster, etc. etc. to come back to the Others camp and Jack is still somehow knocked out?? Isn't that a little odd?

I also find it hard to believe that no one in the camp would have sat down with Juliette and made her answer questions before even letting her set foot on the beach. That;s just common sense.

Why do you find it hard to believe? You actually answer for yourself. Thats just common sense. See? Didnt get it? Okay...

"Common sense" & "LOST-common-sense" dont go hand-in-hand. :rolleyes:

The only problem I have with this is that the Others seem to be afraid and avoid Smokie. Even if Smokie does download Lostie's memories, it doesn't seem like the Others would have access to this information.

Yep. One of my pet theories about why the Others haven't mounted a full-scale assault on the beach is because of the Smokie threat. So we can't have it both ways. They could have drugged Sawyer when they had him on Hydra Island to find out about the Shrimp Shack Murder. But that doesn't explain Sayid. Of course, WE don't know about Basra, either. Maybe it's something the Others could have obtained through classified files.

Must... resist...speculating... on... Lost...

Circular Logic = Good
Others = Bad (unless they're Good)

I signed up just to say i didn't like the episode. It was very strange. The thing about the baby and how Claire was the first one to give birth on the island is stupid because the french lady gave birth to Alex. I watch Lost with friends and they all went, What?, at the same time. It's like Lost got so confusing, it's confusing the writers

I'm finally disappointed enough to make a post. Up until now it seemed to be a master plan by someone that all these people, who's lives have crossed somehow, ended up on the plane together. Suprise!!! We find out "the Others" had no idea about the plane and there was no "plan" it was just a big friggin' coincidence! The mysterious cosmic effect at work here is the Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon syndrome!!

So far, Locke's episode has been the only decent one this season...what a sad spiral downward this show has taken.

I'm amazed that anyone was possibly shocked at the "big" Juliet reveal. I mean, come on, she handcuffed herself to Kate because she was a fraid Kate would leave her behind? I told my wife back at that scene that if the Losties take in Juliet and give her the benefit of the doubt, they deserve everything they get as a result because that would be unrealistic.

Jack has a plan? Jack led Sawyer, Kate and Hurly into Michaels "trap" last season, knowing full well it was a "trap", and guess what, they got "trapped". He made nice with the Others when Ben promised him passage off the island. I don't have much faith in Jack anymore.

In the end, this show will be known as "the show that didn't ask questions". So Jack doesn't care to ask Juliet what's going on. It doesn't matter as long as she wants off the island as much as they do. I just want to scream when they do that. It's beyond annoying. I actually enjoyed the episode but every time it gets around to question time they do the same thing...either get interrupted, put in their place, or they don't care and go make a salad. Aaaarrggghhh!!!!

I know. My biggest pet peeve about this show is that the characters DONT ask questions or investigate the mysteries on the island. Then, THIS episode made it worse, when they have a main character *purposely* point out that he's not asking questions, Jack: "I've been with the others for a week and made sure that I did not ask any questions." Aaaaaaaarrgggghhhh!!!

In the end, this show will be known as "the show that didn't ask questions". So Jack doesn't care to ask Juliet what's going on. It doesn't matter as long as she wants off the island as much as they do. I just want to scream when they do that. It's beyond annoying. I actually enjoyed the episode but every time it gets around to question time they do the same thing...either get interrupted, put in their place, or they don't care and go make a salad. Aaaarrggghhh!!!!


I agree, the characters in this show don't ask questions. They just follow along blindly. I don't know about Jack, why is he to trusting of Juliet. Is Sun next because she is pregnant. Was Juliet's job to infiltrate the Losties and then find out that Sun is pregnant. I have an idea what is going to happen next, they try to kidnap Sun This show is way too predictable if that is the case. :rolleyes:

This just proves they didn't have it planned out from the beginning. All they had was what the island is and the rest is made up as they go along. I wish they'd just admit it.

**MOD edited** when juliet had said that ethan was acting on his own at that point,**MOD edited**

I didn't like that Sayid and Sawyer let Juliet get to them so easily. Sawyer of all people should have known better. Was he not inexplicably "locked" in a cage and then forced to dig holes and move rocks for 6 episodes? So, he's suspicious of Juliet, but as soon as she comments on his background, he backs off? What makes that any LESS suspicious? He KNOWS the Others know stuff about him, and he KNOWS that the Others are crazy, manipulative creeps! And Sayid, shame on you! Didn't the "Henry Gale" situation teach him anything? I am HOPING that these two don't lose focus because it was nice to see TWO characters acting an appropriate amount of suspicious and cautious for once.

Secondly, the last scene just made me angry. Yes, it was a spooky, "neat reveal," but..... why?! I'm tired of wasting my time listening to lies. It used to be that the writers would have us believe something about a character on our own (Shannon is a spoiled brat; Locke is a hardcore wilderness expert; Ana Lucia is a mean tyrant; etc.), and then some time later, we'd see their flashback and realize that what we assumed was not exactly the case. But at least we got to decide for ourselves. I, for one, always believed there was just a little bit more to Shannon then we were seeing. But now? We are straight up being told what to believe, and then when we are naive enough to fall for it, we get a last minute switcheroo -- an in your face "...Not!!!"

I just hope there is a good reason for Juliet to still be working with Ben because I'm just so tired of this infiltration business. I think it would have been more interesting to see Juliet genuinely integrate into the group of Survivors. That she is, indeed, a plant does not surprise me, but it disappoints me, because it's been done.

It wasn't so much about making them less suspicious as in shaming them to the point of shutting them up. Basically she made it like, how dare you judge me when you yourselves have done terrible things. At least that's my take on it. I also don't believe that two of the most cynical people on the island (Sawyer and Sayid) are going to be thrown off that easily. They may have backed off at that moment, but it doesn't mean they trust her. Also, I do have to add this, WHY WHY WHY will no one listen to Sayid, when the man is right about people 99% of the time. He was right about Henry/Ben and Michael, yet no one wants to listen.

It wasn't so much about making them less suspicious as in shaming them to the point of shutting them up. Basically she made it like, how dare you judge me when you yourselves have done terrible things. At least that's my take on it. I also don't believe that two of the most cynical people on the island (Sawyer and Sayid) are going to be thrown off that easily. They may have backed off at that moment, but it doesn't mean they trust her.

Sawyer's reaction to seeing her also struck me as odd. He sees her and just says "What is she doing her?" Jack says something like - she is with me. So Sawyer says "oh, OK."??? I mean common. In his 90 days of being there he as been tortured at least twice, beaten up more than a couple times, finds the thing he loves the most - diamonds and money - are worthless. 90 days and no hope of leaving. People have been kidnapped, killed, lied to, manipulated and all he says is "What is she doing here?"

If this were slightly real he would be depressed and very aggravated. At the first sight of Juliet, a person like Sawyer would hurt her very bad.

The same applies to all the 815ers. I'm surprised they didn't rip her apart, she being with Jack or not. A person that symbolizes the whole reason why they can not get off the island and what do they do? They eat bore.

This is what bothers me the most. I can handle the smoke monster, abandoned hatches in the middle of a tropical island, polar bears, whispers, and pseudoscience. What made season one great was believable drama. Now we have hard-to-believe drama with pseudoscience. Season one was awesome. I really miss season one.

OK, I'll stop bellyaching now.