Jack seemed pretty happy playing football catch with Tom. Has he been initiated into the "others"?

What does it all mean?

Do we think he is brainwashed or just accepting his fate????

Tom is playing, too. Tom continues to show that he is the nice Other.

they looked like one big happy family, didn't they? i hope he is just making the best of his situation. it aapears that they don't keep him caged on this island. i wonder what happened to make him suddenly not a prisoner.

Jack's pretty smart and I think the writers intentionally showed this scene to confuse viewers. I think Jack is playing along and winning the trust of "the others" so he can get away.

Tom is playing, too. Tom continues to show that he is the nice Other.

If a little bit out of shape.

they did that scene perfectly...the way jack was running towards them was perfect...I definitely think that the time between getting off of alcatraz and getting to the barracks has been a "good" experience...is it a ploy by jack?

Jack's pretty smart and I think the writers intentionally showed this scene to confuse viewers. I think Jack is playing along and winning the trust of "the others" so he can get away.

That's exactly what I think as well. I think he will give them a taste of their own medicine. He might try to get them to turn against each other. I'm sure Jack has a big plan. :biggrin:

i think jack's been broken in by the OTHERS.....he's been assimilated.

Imagine how it seems from Kate's POV...

I think we are supposed to wonder: Has Jack turned, or is is he playing them?

He certainly seemed to be having a good time with his new buddy Tom.

I wonder how many times Jack watched that video they showed Carl. But I bet he's not actually one of them, I believe he's playing along to win their trust while he tries to figure out how to get away or waits for Ben to get better and make good on his promise to take him home.

Okay after starting this thread and stating much earlier (after a tale of two cities) Jack has fallen for his look-a-like wife Juliette. Makes for a good show I'd say :) He has been drug through the manure. He's really happy now it seems.

he was having is goods. having fun.

Yeah, I think it's definitely meant to confuse all of us into thinking he's one of them. That is a possibility, sure, but I tend to be on the side that he's playing them or something.... we'll see next week!

But regardless of all that, he did look quite cute doing his little touchdown dance at the end... :smile:

Well he's not exactly hauling rocks now is he? He looked clean and well fed and most importantly RELAXED. More relaxed infact then we have ever seen him back at the beach. It sure looks like Kate should have listened to him when he told her not to bother coming back for him.

i think jack's been broken in by the OTHERS.....he's been assimilated.

It's only been about 4-5 days since Jack helped Ben in exchange for Juliet's life. Is that enough time to assimilate / brainwash him? I'm thinking he has some plan in mind for an escape. Of course, with the Sonic Fence...how far can he actually go?

Once he realizes that Claire is his sister... this should cause some really good friction. This is IF he has fallen for Juliet. Hard to say what the heck will happen now. This is what makes it a great show... thanks writers... you earned your paycheck this week. :)

I call EXCESSIVE CELEBRATION on Jack's touchdown dance at the end!

Somebody throw a flag!

what i want to find out is how kate locke exc plan to get back out of the fence seeing as the tree didn't go down on the other side ;)

Anyone else crackup when Jack spiked the ball????

Loved this episode, and the scene with Jack and Zeke tossing the ol' pigskin was priceless. Can't wait for next week!

I think we know Jack well enough by now to know that he would never change sides. The dude has proven his sense of dedication many times.
Back when he finished the surgery on Ben, and Juliet told him Ben promised to let her go home, Jack had a look that made it clear to me that he realized he was being scammed and lied to. Ben promises this to everyone. I believe at that point, he decided to play along, be the new Doc on the block, and work from the inside. He has a plan of some sort. But first he has to gain their trust.

I could very well be the only one, but I had a big smile on my face with this scene. I've always seen Jack as a bit suggestable, since he has to be so dang literal all of the time. This, coupled with his leadership capabilities (and issues with leadership itself) make even the notion of Jack as an 'Other' an amazing plot device.

I don't believe Jack has been brainwashed in the 4-5 days, but something definitely has happened to get him to relax. Bunking with Jules? Eating cheeseburgers? Playing sports with Tom? Life is WAY better over there kids, as long as you can get over the kidnapping/hanging/shooting aspect of things.

I'm going out on a limb here. Jack does NOT want to escape... he has seen Sawyer with Kate (intimatetly). Jack may want a new deal and possibly he's found it with the others in otherville (for now). This is what makes tonite's reveal that Claire (is his sister) and more importantly baby Aaron's place in this mystery.

perhaps...like mentioned at least once in this forums...he has been brainwashed like the whole carl thing..but i tend to lean on more of the he really has no where to go considering he is caged in by that crazy forcefield that killed Patchy. He is most likely probably earning their trust more and more as u could tell when he and Isabel in the "tatoo" episode were able to share a smile with one another over its meaning..hes trying to break THEM.

It seems unlike the others to trust Jack so quickly.

Apparently Jack did make "the list"? Perhaps he is "capable of understanding" whatever it is drives these people?

It definitely seems like Jack's character to be faithful to his friends and fake assimilation as part of a bigger plan- but why on earth would the others not see it coming!?

I say it's a Jack-clone bounty hunter sorta thing. But then again, I'm all for Mulder and Scully finding the source of the black oil to be coming directly from the lush forests of the Others' island.

I agree with island princess and the others who have said that he is extremely smart and is playing along. That said.. there was something a bit haunting in how relaxed he seemed.

I think we know Jack well enough by now to know that he would never change sides. The dude has proven his sense of dedication many times.
Back when he finished the surgery on Ben, and Juliet told him Ben promised to let her go home, Jack had a look that made it clear to me that he realized he was being scammed and lied to. Ben promises this to everyone. I believe at that point, he decided to play along, be the new Doc on the block, and work from the inside. He has a plan of some sort. But first he has to gain their trust.

I completely agree with you MPmom. Plus, I refuse to accept that it could be anything else for my Jack. :biggrin: Jack wouldn't leave his friends to fend for themselves for too long.

I'm going out on a limb here. Jack does NOT want to escape... he has seen Sawyer with Kate (intimatetly). Jack may want a new deal and possibly he's found it with the others in otherville (for now). This is what makes tonite's reveal that Claire (is his sister) and more importantly baby Aaron's place in this mystery.

I like it. Jack did his part in saving his friends- maybe now he doesn't feel he owes them anything.

I like it. Jack did his part in saving his friends- maybe now he doesn't feel he owes them anything.

I don't know. I personally don't think/hope it will be that way. As previously said, more than anyone else Jack has helped, lead, and cared for all the survivors. I mean, just recently he let himself be held, thinking he'd die, to let Kate and Sawyer go. Unless he was brainwashed, I can't see Jack abandoning the survivors no matter what.

I think the Jack-meister is being shifty this season, just like Tricky-Nikki and the new Sneaky-Locke

They need to get together and plot. If Jack and Locke can stop butting heads, maybe they can get something done.

I'm wondering if Jack has made some sort of deal. He'll stick around (and hey, play some stress relieving football) in exchange for leaving our Losties alone.

I think he's just acting, trying to gain their trust.

If he's not brainwashed (which I hope he isn't), I think he's just acting the part of reformed Survivor who's happy to chill and play football.

Faking it.

They're just trying so damn hard with promos and everything that it practically SCREAMS fake to me.

It's probably working for the casual viewers who are less OCD about this show than we are, but I don't buy it. It's still fun to watch.

Jack knows that Kate and Sawyer have safely gotten away...

And now he has the choice between a sleeping bag under a tarp and crappy Dharma food back at the beach, OR a nice comfy bed and house, plenty of good food, plus a hot blonde in Otherville.

Not a tough choice, IMO. ;)

Faking it.

They're just trying so damn hard with promos and everything that it practically SCREAMS fake to me.

It's probably working for the casual viewers who are less OCD about this show than we are, but I don't buy it. It's still fun to watch.

Good point. I do think the end of this episode was set up so we'd get all confused like Kate and think Jack was brainwashed. But I'm thinking it's probably not that and he's acting.

I think that Jack has been told the whole truth about who the others really are, and he now realizes that the "others" are not the true enemy. Whoever the security system is designed to keep out is the enemy.

I don't know. I personally don't think/hope it will be that way. As previously said, more than anyone else Jack has helped, lead, and cared for all the survivors. I mean, just recently he let himself be held, thinking he'd die, to let Kate and Sawyer go. Unless he was brainwashed, I can't see Jack abandoning the survivors no matter what.


This is exactly why Jack should be in this situation. We least expect it. Look at it from Jack's view... He MAY just MAY be relieved to no longer be responsible for his losties. He found a safe place with the others (and the others know this as well and are playing it to their advantage). He also found Juliet, whom is no accident, looks a lot like his wife and life's love. Well it makes sense to me. LOL.... good show indeed. :)

Well it looks like Jack has a found new "perspective" afterall. This certainly isn't the uptight, reluctant leader, worried all the time about caring for his fellow losties, Jack type that we are used to.

I think he's playing possum.

If he isn't, I'm going to have an aneurysm next week.

Seriously, I have no freakin' idea what we are supposed to think, and that is *exactly* what TPTB planned and wanted. Kudos to them. I have no idea if Jack has been turned, brainwashed, drugged, is playing along, is tricking them, wants to stay with them, or wants off the island. I am so freakin' lost. ;)

I wonder how many times he was forced to watch Karl's video, but I don't believe that he is brainwashed. I think he's faking it and just waiting to either escape or waiting for Ben to make good on his promise to take him home.

No. Jack's planning to gain their trust, to learn more about them. So he can help HIS people know how to fight them.

But to do that, he's gonna have to convince them he is on THEIR side.

Thus, his actions in the Canadian promo tonight.

Just saying.

It definitely sets up an interesting interaction between Jack & Locke, since they've butted heads over power in the past.

PLEASE
The rescue party arrived outside Otherville. They looked through the leaves and saw Jack and Tom playing catch. Kate started to call Jack's name, but Sayid stopped her. Jack did a silly touchdown spike. Cut to "Lost."

This is exactly why Jack should be in this situation. We least expect it. Look at it from Jack's view... He MAY just MAY be relieved to no longer be responsible for his losties. He found a safe place with the others (and the others know this as well and are playing it to their advantage). He also found Juliet, whom is no accident, looks a lot like his wife and life's love. Well it makes sense to me. LOL.... good show indeed. :)

True, I think Jack would be relieved to a certain degree to not have to take care of the other survivors. And I can see that point. But at the same time, I think Jack is just too much a leader and too concerned about them to just abandon them. He's been with the survivors for 70 days or so and is good friends with at least a handful of them - we knows he cares about Kate, Sawyer, Hurley, Charlie, Sun and pretty much everyone else. No matter how much he might want to not deal with the responsibility of taking care of them all (and I don't think that's the case either), I think he cares about them too much to just abandon them for the people who kidnapped Claire, lead to Libby and Ana's deaths, tried to kill Charlie, etc.

And once he learns about his relationship with Claire, I especially can't see him being on the Other's side.

If we take into account some of the events from the past few episodes Jack's behavior doesn't seem that strange. These events are:

Jack has been promised a way home.
He know's that Juliet is also "going home" and probably has romantic feelings for her on some level.
He made a deal with Ben that obligates him to stay with Ben and treat him.

We can see that Jack, for several reasons, has no desire to leave Otherville. If he's going to be staying there for a while, he might as well get some exercise.

We all obviously know that a character like Jack isn't actually "going home". But I think Jack really believes that he is. His reaction to Juliet in the operating room was surprise at seeing Juliet vulnerable for the first time. Also, in the preview, we see

Jack mention going home again.

I'm going to have to go with the camp that thinks Jack would never "turn." But you know, they say it's always the one you least expect... ;)

what i want to find out is how kate locke exc plan to get back out of the fence seeing as the tree didn't go down on the other side ;)


my bf and i thought the same exact thing

I'm going to have to go with the camp that thinks Jack would never "turn." But you know, they say it's always the one you least expect... ;)

And I could totally see TPTB leaving it ambiguous next week so we're all still debating it for a few weeks....

Meh.

Juliet wants to go home.
Jack wants to go home.

Tom's a good guy.

Jack plays football with Tom.

Because Tom wants to go home, too.

for sure jack is using a false front. IMO, when one is in a situation such as he is in, (being isolated from the Losties, his allies, and being promised freedom by his "captors") it makes perfect sense for him to ACT as if he has surrendered all thoughts of escape/rebellion. the most logical choice for jack to make is one in which has the most benefits and the least amount of turmoil.

OR, he has been brainwashed.

I think it would add something spectacular to the show to have him turn (for real), at least for a bit. He looked like he was having fun with Tom, and seemed to fit in better than with our regular Losties. Change can be a good thing (for Jack?, and for the show). This does make me very excited, though we'll probably find out that he's just playing them to gain trust like other people here are saying.

for sure jack is using a false front. IMO, when one is in a situation such as he is in, (being isolated from the Losties, his allies, and being promised freedom by his "captors") it makes perfect sense for him to ACT as if he has surrendered all thoughts of escape/rebellion. the most logical choice for jack to make is one in which has the most benefits and the least amount of turmoil.

Agreed.

Still blew my mind, though.

I can see everyone's view... BUT here's my take in total:

Jack has found a comfortable place for now with the others and Juliet ( considering he thinks he has lost Kate as a love, we know he hasn't but he does not).

We have been told directly by tonight's episode that Claire is his sister. This will not be lost on him, once he finds out.

This new found sister (and her baby Aaron) may be his motivation, once he learns of it, to re-become the leader or at the very least in pusuit of his lostie saviour status. This would make a good story-line as he is torn between his feelings for Juliet and his new found sister. Not to mention Kate who we all know really loves him.

simple.... LOL

Tonight we found out that Jack and Claire were brother and sister. If we take the "Star Wars" analogy one more step, Jack will go to the dark side. I actually don't think this would be so far fetched, considering the Star Wars references in past episodes, as well as TPTB's love of Star Wars. Also, Jack "turning" would be sweeet!

I can see everyone's view... BUT here's my take in total:

Jack has found a comfortable place for now with the others and Juliet ( considering he thinks he has lost Kate as a love, we know he hasn't but he does not).

We have been told directly by tonight's episode that Claire is his sister. This will not be lost on him, once he finds out.

This new found sister (and her baby Aaron) may be his motivation, once he learns of it, to re-become the leader or at the very least in pusuit of his lostie saviour status. This would make a good story-line as he is torn between his feelings for Juliet and his new found sister. Not to mention Kate who we all know really loves him.

simple.... LOL

that is a clean and linear storyline, and one in which i like and would be happy to see play out. BUT, im going to be cynical and wonder if it is too straight forward for TPTB.


I think it would add something spectacular to the show to have him turn (for real), at least for a bit. He looked like he was having fun with Tom, and seemed to fit in better than with our regular Losties. Change can be a good thing (for Jack?, and for the show). This does make me very excited, though we'll probably find out that he's just playing them to gain trust like other people here are saying.

again, i would LOVE this angle. jack doesnt owe anything to the Losties. why not switch camps? EXCEPT for the fact that jack wants answers and doesnt like to be used or manipulated.

Except it was Luke & Leia's FATHER who turned to the Dark Side, not Luke or Leia!
They became champions of Good. Now, THAT'S a parallel to Star Wars I can get into!

People... are you actually believing that Jack is an other now? With no plan? Or that he is there just waiting to get off the island?
PLEASE... We are talking about JACK here... :rolleyes:

Tonight we found out that Jack and Claire were brother and sister. If we take the "Star Wars" analogy one more step, Jack will go to the dark side. I actually don't think this would be so far fetched, considering the Star Wars references in past episodes, as well as TPTB's love of Star Wars. Also, Jack "turning" would be sweeet!

Actually, not to split hairs or anything, but as a long-time Star Wars fan, I have to ask what you mean by that? Because in Return of the Jedi, it's actually being reminded of his sister that gives Luke the strength to keep fighting. He wanted to stop fighting Darth Vader, but his desire to protect his sister makes him continue on. Luke never goes to the Dark Side.

And I could see something similar happening - that Jack finds out Claire is his sister and becomes extra-motivated to protect the survivors.

exactly Zoe and i know zero about star wars. ;)

Man...did Tom look Gay :)

So, Jack loves Kate, and he sees that she apparently has it for Sawyer. Jack couldn't let go of his ex-wife. He couldn't see her happy with anyone but him, because he couldn't see himself happy with anyone but her.

Then he falls in love with Kate. This time, he lets her go because she seems to be happy with Sawyer. Not only does Jack move on, he makes damn sure Kate's safe with Sawyer because he figures that's what she wants.

Then Jack turns his back on them? He gets selfish? He plans to ditch all of the castaways on the Island because he sees a way to get himself off the Island?

PLEASE.

There's no way Jack's going to suddenly turn like that. He did what he did for Kate and Sawyer because he loves Kate and he wants her to be happy. You think she's happy living on the Island?

There have definitely been developments in Otherville we haven't seen! Tom's one of Juliet's Mittelos team. He's gotta be, and he and Jack are on the same side here. The three of them are just waiting for the right time.

There's no way Jack is going to abandon all those people that looked up to him. Hurley? Sun? He's not a selfish man, he's a Great man. He's just one step closer to getting everyone off the Island, and he doesn't want Kate, or Sayid, or Locke, or ANYONE to mess up that chance. You think he's going to give up being a leader so that he can be a slave to a clinical sociopath? What kind of great man would do that unless he had a plan to save everyone?

42ndFloor, two words: THANK YOU! :)

You think he's going to give up being a leader so that he can be a slave to a clinical sociopath? What kind of great man would do that unless he had a plan to save everyone?

This is what bothers me... he DID say he had a plan (when hooded on the Pala dock). how could he know what was going to go down back then. He didn't. He's working play by play now. Maybe just maybe he's grown tired of his original persective and gave up. We all know that Jack doesn't REALLY want to be a hero.

There's no way Jack is going to abandon all those people that looked up to him. Hurley? Sun? He's not a selfish man, he's a Great man. He's just one step closer to getting everyone off the Island, and he doesn't want Kate, or Sayid, or Locke, or ANYONE to mess up that chance. You think he's going to give up being a leader so that he can be a slave to a clinical sociopath? What kind of great man would do that unless he had a plan to save everyone?

with all due respect, 42nd, that image of jack is just ONE way to perceive jacks character. there should be an open minded approach to this, one in which allows other translations of jacks motivation and personality to be possible.

IMO, jack owes the other Losties zip. yea, he bonded with them, and yeah he got pushed into a leadership role, but he didnt ask for any of it, nor was he active in securing any relationships or the role as leader.

i think this sets up a great storyline for him to be torn between Juliet and Claire...

This is what bothers me... he DID say he had a plan (when hooded on the Pala dock). how could he know what was going to go down back then. He didn't. He's working play by play now. Maybe just maybe he's grown tired of his original persective and gave up. We all know that Jack doesn't REALLY want to be a hero.

Yeah, and I'm short but there's nothing I can do about it.

Jack's tats tell us everything we need to know about him. The Sheriff was right about their translation. He walks among them but he is not one of them. He's the only guy out there who is both mentally and physically equipped to get them out of there.

i think this sets up a great storyline for him to be torn between Juliet and Claire...

Exactly my point in starting this discussion. Bravo

I don't have time to go into all the reasons why this is all practically screaming FAKE to me (but I will mention my favorite: they are trying so damn hard with the promos and everything), so here's something to ponder.

Let's assume for a moment your ultimate goal is to get EVERYONE off Craphole Island and be done with the cat and mouse game and the eating mangoes and boars and the always fun game of let's wait for the Others to kindap and strangle us...

What do you do?

Do you:

a) hang out with the people who are your best bet of contacting the outside world/figuring out what's going on... the people who own several boats?

b) do your best to escape so you can go back to the people who play ping pong at the beach?

The timespan is very short, so for Ben, Tom and co. to belive Jack is happy in Otherville and can't wait to get off the island (if they know so much about his past they know he has nothing to go back to, but that's another story), they must have told him something or done something to him that would warrant going from: I despise you and everything you stand for to "TOUCHDOWN!"

But he's still faking it or doing what he thinks is best with the cards he's been dealt.

Yeah, and I'm short but there's nothing I can do about it.

Jack's tats tell us everything we need to know about him. The Sheriff was right about their translation. He walks among them but he is not one of them. He's the only guy out there who is both mentally and physically equipped to get them out of there.

This too is a good point. In keeping with what i really hope to communicate, once he finds out about Claire he may well find his moxy to do just that. :)

i think this sets up a great storyline for him to be torn between Juliet and Claire...

While I can see this is one point-of-view, I think genuinely cares for lots of the survivors, not just Claire. Sun, Hurley, Charlie, Sawyer - I would say he considers them all friends and would consider them too. Most importantly, he cares for Kate very much and we know she cares for him too, and I think he wouldn't abandon her.

I definitely think at some point, the point of Claire being his sister will be important, but I don't necessarily think it will be this storyline. I don't really see it boiling down to Claire v. Juliet. I think that's an over-simplification.

And knowing that later in the season Juliet joins the survivors, Jack won't have to choose between them.

I don't have time to go into all the reasons why this is all practically screaming FAKE to me (but I will mention my favorite: they are trying so damn hard with the promos and everything), so here's something to ponder.

Let's assume for a moment your ultimate goal is to get EVERYONE off Craphole Island and be done with the cat and mouse game and the eating mangoes and boars and the always fun game of let's wait for the Others to kindap and strangle us...

What do you do?

Do you:

a) hang out with the people who are your best bet of contacting the outside world/figuring out what's going on... the people who own several boats?

b) do your best to escape so you can go back to the people who play ping pong at the beach?

The timespan is very short, so for Ben, Tom and co. to belive Jack is happy in Otherville and can't wait to get off the island (if they know so much about his past they know he has nothing to go back to, but that's another story), they must have told him something or done something to him that would warrant going from: I despise you and everything you stand for to "TOUCHDOWN!"

But he's still faking it or doing what he thinks is best with the cards he's been dealt.


TPTB will have to let us see what went down that would lead to a situation in which jack and tom are 'tossing the pigskin'

The timespan is very short, so for Ben, Tom and co. to belive Jack is happy in Otherville and can't wait to get off the island (if they know so much about his past they know he has nothing to go back to, but that's another story), they must have told him something or done something to him that would warrant going from: I despise you and everything you stand for to "TOUCHDOWN!"


Oh no...does this open the door for a future Jack-Back..."The Other 3 Days"

TPTB will have to let us see what went down that would lead to a situation in which jack and tom are 'tossing the pigskin'

I think that may come up in 3.16, which is supposed to be a Juliet island flashback. There are also unconfirmed spoilers of her joining the beach folk in that episode (along with Jack).

Just like with the Claire connection tonight, we have to keep in mind the bulk of the audience is not as OCD about this show as we are so to them this is a big WTF moment (as will the one where Jack's real allegiances are finally clarified), but I think we know enough about character motivation and all the details (not to mention spoilers :71:) to not be quite so easily swayed.

with all due respect, 42nd, that image of jack is just ONE way to perceive jacks character. there should be an open minded approach to this, one in which allows other translations of jacks motivation and personality to be possible.

IMO, jack owes the other Losties zip. yea, he bonded with them, and yeah he got pushed into a leadership role, but he didnt ask for any of it, nor was he active in securing any relationships or the role as leader.

But Jack is still a human being. He's a surgeon, which makes him more human than me or anyone else I know. He's also in love with Kate. You think you could fall in love with someone stranded on an island, and then get on a rescue boat, go home, leave them behind, and live with yourself?

The whole series started with us looking him dead in the eye. We've grown to relate with him. Sympathize with him. He's our boy, and now suddenly he's going to turn into someone we can't stand? And for what? A guilty conscience the rest of his life?

This is Dr. Jack freakin' Shephard we're talking about here. The man has taken how many beatings in his life just to prove that he's not a slouch?

He might not like being a leader, but have we ever seen him do anything that suggests he is anything but.

This is what bothers me... he DID say he had a plan (when hooded on the Pala dock). how could he know what was going to go down back then. He didn't. He's working play by play now. Maybe just maybe he's grown tired of his original persective and gave up. We all know that Jack doesn't REALLY want to be a hero.

Nope, ever since he was a kid, he wanted to be a hero, an important man, just like his daddy, otherwise he would have never stood up for the other boy that was being beaten by the bully.

His reluctance to be the hero in early season one had to do with his father telling him he couldn't be a hero, he didn't have what it took to lead, he couldn't let go. Ever since then, he has been doing anything and everything to prove his daddy wrong, graduated a year early from Columbia, became an exceptional spinal surgeon... But, he still couldn't let go, as we saw when he was stalking his own wife.

In TOTC he finally was able to let go, that's why he asked "is she happy?". Final hurdle accomplished, he's now a better leader, and was able to let Kate go and be happy with Sawyer. He became the ultimate hero when he gave up his life (or at least believed he did) so that Kate and Sawyer could escape The Hydra.

This is not the kind of man that would abandon / betray his friends. His whole life has been leading up to this (to paraphrase The Bridges of Madison County). And remember, he's an excellent poker player, he is keeping his cards very close. Remember also the old adage: Keep your Friends Close, and Your Enemies Closer....

He's learning all he can, he's keeping his promise to care for Ben, because he is a man of his word, and in the unlikely event that after he fulfills his promise Ben does offer him a way to get home, he'll ship Juliette out and stay behind to attempt to save everyone else.

Are the Others on to him? Probably, they don't strike me as a very trusting people, but they are playing the game too, just as Sayid and Mikhail were playing nice in The Flame. We'll see how that ends. My personal theory is that the group of unsatisfied people Juliet mentioned in her home made "Kill Ben" movie will make a power play soon. Ben could end up dead or severely crippled in the struggle, a new order will be established in Otherville and Jack will have to switch plans and escape back to the beach.

Never was mentioned that we can't stand Jack, or hate him... He's just between a rock and a hard place. He seems to have chosen the rock.

What it all boils down to is Jack is seen playing football (happily) with Tom in otherville.

Clarie has discovered Jack's dad is her's as well. This sets up tension or at least wonder once Jack finds out this fact.

Jack has possible feelings for Juliet. At the very least he sees her as a comrade in medicine and judging by his aloe application on her brand... possibly more.

I just think this show has become really good.

Rock and hard place is where TPTB want us and i like it :)

Some thoughts;

I don't believe that the Others would have even tried to brainwash Jack yet...they wouldn't take the chance with screwing with his head until Ben is completly out of the woods. If there are complications Jack is their only hope.

I think Jack is playing along, and in such is trying to figure out just how much he can trust Juliet...and possibly Tom and a few other Others at this point. I am pretty sure that he is trying to learn as much as he can so that he can either; a.) get everyone off the island that wants to leave the island b.) if neccessary because a. is impossible, stop the Others from screwing with the Losties anymore.

It is possible that what appears to be Locke losing his mind bit by bit willl cause problems for Jack's end game.

And I have to believe the best in Jack...otherwise why help Kate and Sawyer escape and possibly ruin his chances of leaving. He took a responsibility for the Losties and I believe it is one he intends to live up to. If nothing else Jack has proven that he is a man of his word.

The Others trust Jack to a point without the need of brianwashing because; a.) Jack has proven himself to be a man of his word, b.) the Others have shown Jack the security pylons and he and they both know he can't escape, c.) because of the sacrifice he is willing to make for one of "them", or d.) because eventually Ben got what he wanted...for Jack to want to save his life.

I am sure other things will occur to me.

till later

cheers

You think you could fall in love with someone stranded on an island, and then get on a rescue boat, go home, leave them behind, and live with yourself?

What would he go back to in LA? His Cruella DeVille mother? His ex wife who is now happy with the guy she dumped him for some time ago?

Character motivation. What's Jack's?

Michael's allegiance was to Walt. He needed to get his son out of there. He also murdered two people. That's motivated enough.

Jack... er... ? His allegiance has always been with the group. He's the one who stood there and told them to get their :censored: together or else they'll "die alone". I can't be expected to believe he's going to leave that behind and go back to his old life.

Good point about needing him for Ben and needing him in a non-zombie state, oliverqueen.

How long has it been, island-time, since we last saw Jack with the Others? I remember Sayid (I think) saying that it had been a few days in the last episode...

How long has it been, island-time, since we last saw Jack with the Others? I remember Sayid (I think) saying that it had been a few days in the last episode...

I think that is about right. it took them a couple of days to find the flame outpost and let's throw in a day to get organized on the beach.

I don't believe that the Others would have even tried to brainwash Jack yet...they wouldn't take the chance with screwing with his head until Ben is completly out of the woods. If there are complications Jack is their only hope.

using that logic, the brainwashing process is more of a brain"mushing" process. IMO, he isnt brainwashed, but theoreticly speaking, the brainwashing wouldnt erase the surgeon skills out of his mind, just reprogram it so that he is friendly w/the Others, instead of fighting them.


I think Jack is playing along, and in such is trying to figure out just how much he can trust Juliet...and possibly Tom and a few other Others at this point. I am pretty sure that he is trying to learn as much as he can so that he can either; a.) get everyone off the island that wants to leave the island b.) if neccessary because a. is impossible, stop the Others from screwing with the Losties anymore.

playing along is one thing, but literally "playing" along by tossing a football w/TOM!?!?! thats a stretch.


It is possible that what appears to be Locke losing his mind bit by bit willl cause problems for Jack's end game.

for sure. im with you on that.


And I have to believe the best in Jack...otherwise why help Kate and Sawyer escape and possibly ruin his chances of leaving. He took a responsibility for the Losties and I believe it is one he intends to live up to. If nothing else Jack has proven that he is a man of his word.

he got kate/saywer out so that he could be alone w/the Others. once alone, jack is free to make any choices he wants without endangering the Losties. IMO, the moment jack saw kate naked w/sawyer, he turned a corner. by that i mean he got his heart broke and shut off all emotion to either of them.

The Others trust Jack to a point without the need of brianwashing because; a.) Jack has proven himself to be a man of his word, b.) the Others have shown Jack the security pylons and he and they both know he can't escape, c.) because of the sacrifice he is willing to make for one of "them", or d.) because eventually Ben got what he wanted...for Jack to want to save his life.

again, this trust thing between jack and the Others is one thing, but to get to the point of playing catch w/tom is just weird.

I think that we've not seen Jack for about five days. I don't think that's nearly enough time for Jack to "become" an Other or become loyal to them.

But Jack is still a human being. He's a surgeon, which makes him more human than me or anyone else I know. He's also in love with Kate. You think you could fall in love with someone stranded on an island, and then get on a rescue boat, go home, leave them behind, and live with yourself?

The whole series started with us looking him dead in the eye. We've grown to relate with him. Sympathize with him. He's our boy, and now suddenly he's going to turn into someone we can't stand? And for what? A guilty conscience the rest of his life?

This is Dr. Jack freakin' Shephard we're talking about here. The man has taken how many beatings in his life just to prove that he's not a slouch?

He might not like being a leader, but have we ever seen him do anything that suggests he is anything but.

I totally agree with everything you said here. In "Do No Harm," Jack's father told him that commitment is what makes him tick, and it's so true. Even though Jack may have been reluctant at first to become the leader of the Losties, he eventually made that commitment. There is just no way Jack would go back on that. I think that he is playing the Others in order to get information in order to help the Losties out. I just can't see him ever abandoning them.

Man...did Tom look Gay :)

and the reason you've posted this is?

Maybe he is playing Kate, and he is actually still on the losties side, i think he is gaining more trust, so he can leave the island or go back to the beach. Well since Juilet may leave the others to be with losties, which ends up having Jack changing his mind staying with Ben and looking after him

TOUCHDOWN JACK

is jack gonna wanna be called the big CUATRO OCHO now?

I think that we've not seen Jack for about five days. I don't think that's nearly enough time for Jack to "become" an Other or become loyal to them.


I totally agree with everything you said here. In "Do No Harm," Jack's father told him that commitment is what makes him tick, and it's so true. Even though Jack may have been reluctant at first to become the leader of the Losties, he eventually made that commitment. There is just no way Jack would go back on that. I think that he is playing the Others in order to get information in order to help the Losties out. I just can't see him ever abandoning them.

Good points, jenrae! :smile: Considering how short a time it has been, I agree it's unreasonable to think Jack would just abandon the Losties when commitment and loyalty is such a huge part of his character. Brainwashing is a possibility sure, but except for that, I can't see him betraying the Losties (though he may act like it, I suppose, to keep the facade up with the Others).

Any discussion here that the Jack playing football may be a clone. What if all the losties have been cloned (not new to this forum), but what could be new is that the cloned characters are intended to replace the survivors (who were never meant to survive.)

I think that we've not seen Jack for about five days. I don't think that's nearly enough time for Jack to "become" an Other or become loyal to them.

exactly my point. what has transpired that would create a situation where jack and tom are playing catch?!?


I totally agree with everything you said here. In "Do No Harm," Jack's father told him that commitment is what makes him tick, and it's so true. Even though Jack may have been reluctant at first to become the leader of the Losties, he eventually made that commitment. There is just no way Jack would go back on that. I think that he is playing the Others in order to get information in order to help the Losties out. I just can't see him ever abandoning them.

im on the fence with this. i DO agree with the points made above, BUT, i also could see jack hanging out with the Others for his own personal gain.

jacks character aside, he is stranded on an island under VERY STRANGE circumstances and if its a choice between (a) hanging with you surviorvor homies and (b) hanging with this group of people who have actual homes and beds and footballs and maybe a way off the island, i would choose (b).... every man for themselves.
100%
Any discussion here that the Jack playing football may be a clone. What if all the losties have been cloned (not new to this forum), but what could be new is that the cloned characters are intended to replace the survivors (who were never meant to survive.)

honest, i would be the first to jump on the clone concept bandwagon, but what would be the explanation for jacks clone being the same age as the orig. jack.

(when i say honest, i mean it. i have posted a lot about the concept of clones being involved with the storyline. so if you, Loz, dont get much response here, im down to theorize about this elsewhere)

jacks character aside, he is stranded on an island under VERY STRANGE circumstances and if its a choice between (a) hanging with you surviorvor homies and (b) hanging with this group of people who have actual homes and beds and footballs and maybe a way off the island, i would choose (b).... every man for themselves.

I see what you're saying, but even the phrase "Every man for himself" is so very Sawyer. That's been Sawyer's catchphrase, including when he wanted to leave Jack with the others. On the other hand, Jack's mantra has been "Live together, die alone." I could see Sawyer (and some other Losties) using the situation for their personal gain, but not Jack. That goes against everything we've been told about his character so far.

That goes against everything we've been told about his character so far.


everything about jacks PRE-ISLAND character. IMO, jack is over the whole "leader of the Losties" role, and just wants out. and he will do what he has to do in order for that to happen.

everything about jacks PRE-ISLAND character. IMO, jack is over the whole "leader of the Losties" role, and just wants out. and he will do what he has to do in order for that to happen.

I disagree and still think commitment and loyalty are huge parts of Jack's current character, but we'll just have to wait and see what TPTB decide to do with him next week! :smile:

jacks character aside...

everything about jacks PRE-ISLAND character. IMO, jack is over the whole "leader of the Losties" role, and just wants out.

But that's just it. You can't discuss one without the other. Like I said earlier... what's Jack's motivation? Why would he want out?

I don't think he stopped being committed on the island. Remember Boone?


he is stranded on an island under VERY STRANGE circumstances and if its a choice between (a) hanging with you surviorvor homies and (b) hanging with this group of people who have actual homes and beds and footballs and maybe a way off the island, i would choose (b).... every man for themselves.


I think I made the same a&b points earlier so here's my question again: why not get EVERYONE off the island?

So, am I missing something? WE know that Christian is Jack's Dad, but Claire just had a memory of her real dad, some American doctor--she doesn't even know his name. Given that they can't compare their mental images, how exactly will it be revealed to Jack or Claire that they are related? Does Jack know he has a sister somewhere? There is a missing piece.

As for Jack's motivation--I love how confused I am. No opinion here, just crackpot theories. It was suspicious that Jack asked Kate to leave and never come back and then is acting like this. But who knows! :confused:

So, am I missing something? WE know that Christian is Jack's Dad, but Claire just had a memory of her real dad, some American doctor--she doesn't even know his name. Given that they can't compare their mental images, how exactly will it be revealed to Jack or Claire that they are related? Does Jack know he has a sister somewhere? There is a missing piece.

it will come out somehow. or else it wouldnt of been put as a flashback

As for Jack's motivation--I love how confused I am. No opinion here, just crackpot theories. It was suspicious that Jack asked Kate to leave and never come back and then is acting like this. But who knows! :confused:

part of his plan to win over the Others. a lot easier to do when none of his fellow Losties are around to see how low he will go in order to gain trust.

Whether Jack has crossed sides or is playing the others, I am really interested to see how Kate reacts and what the Losties decide to do. Kate really hasn't seen much of Jack since they were captured, and for all she knows he could have been playing football for over two weeks, while they were locked in cages.

i doubt anyone brainwashed him. if they had the power to brainwash people, why didnt they brainwash juliet? or how did she deviate away from the effects of brainwashing if any? the video they showed carl was probably just to break him down and not necessarily used to make him conform to a certain attitude.

anyways, what if everything jack is doing now is a result of what the others have told him? for instance, the others told him the truth about everything, and through his own rational thought processes, he has accepted what they told him and is now acting accordingly. the truth could have been something like "everything will turn out okay because we're actually doing something that will save everyone's life and the world yada yada," if someone told you something like that, wouldnt you just accept it, trust them, stop fighting back, let them do their own thing, etc?

Jack hasn't been brainwashed, and he hasn't been "turned" because the Others are good guys whom we simply have not had the opportunity to understand yet. Whether Jack has struck a "deal" with the Others or simply learned more about them, he has obviously come to the conclusion that they are not the people he once thought they were, as we all soon will before the end of the season.

Isnt the going home point redundand now...since Juliett told Jack that the others island paradise was *home* ? Im dling in the Uk, so excuse me if I missed something! :D

Angie
xxxxx

Has it ever occurred to anyone that the reason Jack seems so happy is because he is "The Brilliant Man?"

I know it is hard to fathom, but really think about it for a bit and discuss how brilliant it would be for Jack to be the "Boss man of the others"

I have been lurking here for ages, and this has long been my feeling on Jack.

What do we know about "The brilliant man?" And what do we know about Jack?

1. Jack was not at the crash site, but came out of the woods with a minor injury.

2. Jack has to save lives, he does not like losing anyone's life.

3. He has no remorse over causing his own father to lose his license.

4. His work comes before everything else. He even lost a woman he loved over his work.

5. He could have gained the ultimate trust from the lostee's through his Great leadership skills.

6. His tattoo refers to "he is not one of us, but he walks amongst us." Yet it makes you think he is not one of the others, whereas its true intent could be he was not one of the lostee's, he walked amongst them, yet he was not one of them.

7. His ultimate plan to save kate was nothing more than a ruse to get kate "The runner" safely away with Sawyer in hopes they would remain far away in fear of what would happen to them if they did not. "Do not EVER come back for me Kate."

There are many many other significant possibilities and tie-ins to Jack being "The Brilliant Man."

This is why I think Jack is comfortable at the others eutopia.

I don't think Jack has crossed over. I think he is playing them and biding his time to see what is the best course of action. Remember his tattos says "he walks among them but is not one of them."

Or maybe that was his "bad twin" playing football...sorry couldn't resist throwing that in!

Oh, and Tom throws like a girl.

Starting to think of more things about Jack as the "Brilliant man."

.1 Ben tells Locke that he never pressed the buttons and nothing happened. Jack also tried to convince Locke that nothing would happen if they did not press the buttons.

2. Ben trusts jack to save him. (Ben and Jack have been working together the entire time.)

3. Jack "saves" Juliet through Ben. Jack calls the shots and is so brilliant he even plays some of the "Others" to achieve the "Others" ultimate goals. Not every other knows the "Brlliant man"

4. Ben places Kate and Sawyer into the cages so that they bond, so that they depend on one another while Jack is separated from them and pretends to be angry to Juliet. He later has himself placed there to throw people off the scent of his true value.

5. Jack has a gun when he escapes his glass cage and see's Kate and Sawyer have bonded. Instead of being angry and using it against Ben (Shooting him), the mission of bonding Kate and Sawyer accomplished he agrees to operate on Ben.

I have to go back and watch some old episode's to remember everything that convinced me Jack wasn't who he seemed, but there are a ton of other situations that would provide subtle hints to this scenario.

Tom throws like a girl.

Anyone else crackup when Jack spiked the ball????

I was waiting to see the Ickey Shuffle.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ickey_Shuffle#The_Ickey_Shuffle) for our non-football fans.

Once he realizes that Claire is his sister...

I don't think he got to see the flashback.

Don

I don't think he got to see the flashback.

Don
:rolleyes:

When I saw Jack I thought it was running for freedom!!! But no.. It was to play ball with Tom!!! So what is going on here??? Atleast it's 6 more days till Lost to find out!:biggrin:

Jack is finally getting from Juliette what he wanted from Kate but she gave to Sawyer. After nearly three months around Kate, Claire, Ana, Shannon, and Nikki (I guess) I might think the grass is greener too (so to speak)

Jack is a good guy. Everything he has done has been for people other than himself. Everything he dose is morally right.
1. He save the victim instead of the drunk.
2. He marries the victim he saved even though he didn't love her because she loved him.
3. He tries to save his marriage because divorce is not morally right (from a religious perspective).
4. He turns in his dad because peoples lives are in danger if he doesn’t
5.. He sacrifices himself to let Kate and Sawyer go.

He is a leader and he will do what ever he has to do to protect the Losties. Right now he just playing along to get as much information as he can so he can get everyone home. What better way of doing that then to become one of them. Everyone is more likely to revile information when they are relaxed are you then when they think you are an outsider.

So, Jack loves Kate, and he sees that she apparently has it for Sawyer. Jack couldn't let go of his ex-wife. He couldn't see her happy with anyone but him, because he couldn't see himself happy with anyone but her.
...

Not to beat a dead horse, but they were married and she refused to work with Jack to solve their marriage problems, taking the institution extremely casually if not flippantly. Her poor relationship skills are illustrated in the "I'm not pregnant" scene. Jack DID try to resolve what is essentially the biggest and most important relationship in someone's life: their spouse and the family they create and it ended up with her coldly ignoring him. Jack didn't necessarily see himself happy with others, but they were MARRIED which makes all the difference, legal, moral and if you're religious then also religious, in the world.

Don

Well...if I had spent ??? days in a previously used dolphin tank, then ??? days in a previously used bear cage that smelled like fish biscuits and Sawyer, I'm sure that a nice bungalo and a shower and some hot food would be a welcome change. Yeah I think that would be all I'd need to say, 'Yeah, I can live here for awhile.'

But I think jack is working on something in his head (I hope)

Jack was locked up in a cage about 24hrs (lost time) ago. Now he is all happy playing football with them. They're arent that good at turning people around. I think he was faking

Can I just say the look on Kates face was priceless!

I think it serves her right really. Jack told her not to come back for him and she broke her promise. Still I feel bad for the Jaters - Jack playing football with the guy who held a gun to Kates head?! Any chance of Jate romance seems to be dissolving fast.

Jack was locked up in a cage about 24hrs (lost time) ago. Now he is all happy playing football with them. They're arent that good at turning people around. I think he was faking

and if he is faking I'm sure the others, Ben in particular, is smart enough to not be fooled by it.

... Maybe just maybe he's grown tired of his original persective and gave up. We all know that Jack doesn't REALLY want to be a hero.

This has never been shown onscreen. in fact, quite the opposite.

Don

A lot of us are having troble separating our personal feelings about Jack from our theories about what's going on.

Even if Jack is a good leader, and smart, and loyal to Kate and the other losties, and all about comittment, there are still a lot of things that I can think of that could make him simpathetic towards the Others.

I'm with externational. We know the Others have some big-time secrets. If Jack was made privy to any or all of these secrets, it might force him to reevaluate his opinion of the Others. They're doing something important, and maybe Jack wants to help??

Some people should not throw a football. Tom is one of them...

Jack may not be acting exactly, he may just be playing along. I mean, he has a choice: start liking those people and enjoy your stay OR keep on hating them and be miserable from beginning till end. That would suck. He's just making the best out of his situation. If he's gonna have to stay there, he might as well enjoy it. I sure would adapt if not adapting wouldn't do any help.

Also, that scene was so AWESOmELY made. The shot of Jack running towards the jungle was wonderful. To Kate's eyes (and the casual viewer's) it probably looked like Jack was running away as fast as he could and then... he grabs a football! It was FANTASTIC! :D

For now, I am just going with the idea that Jack is just enjoying some good old fashioned R&R. He's not really in a situation to change his circumstances at the moment, so in the meantime, he is just enjoying a little mini-break from all of the stress and pressure of being the hero and leader of a whacked-out group of plane crash survivors on some mystical topical island. The Other seem to have it pretty good. Good food, comfortable homes, hot women, etc. When in Rome....right. Hey, if you can't beat them, why not join them and have as much fun as you can in the mean time.

However, I have a feeling thatif Locke carries out his devious plans, that the Others may decide to send Jack back to the beach simply to protect themselves from any more attacts by his crazy and dangerous "friends".

Wow this thread is moving fast. There's already been about 5 pages since I left for school this morning! Going back a few pages... 42ndFloor, :hug: don't ever stop posting here, k? I can't believe that Jack would turn his back on his friends that quick, unless there's some seriously powerful brainwashing going on. He knows the losties are without a doctor, he wouldn't just abandon them forever.

Jack may not be acting exactly, he may just be playing along. I mean, he has a choice: start liking those people and enjoy your stay OR keep on hating them and be miserable from beginning till end. That would suck. He's just making the best out of his situation. If he's gonna have to stay there, he might as well enjoy it. I sure would adapt if not adapting wouldn't do any help.

Also, that scene was so AWESOmELY made. The shot of Jack running towards the jungle was wonderful. To Kate's eyes (and the casual viewer's) it probably looked like Jack was running away as fast as he could and then... he grabs a football! It was FANTASTIC! :D


I totally agree with everything you said here, Remus!
100%
I can't believe that Jack would turn his back on his friends that quick, unless there's some seriously powerful brainwashing going on. He knows the losties are without a doctor, he wouldn't just abandon them forever.


But why should he have to assume responsiblity for all of them? 80 days ago they were all just a bunch of strangers. If Jack had a choice as to whom he had to be stranded with, I am not sure that that group of needy nut cases would have been the group he would have chosen. He may now be realizing that he doesn't have to be stuck with them afterall.

For now, I am just going with the idea that Jack is just enjoying some good old fashioned R&R. He's not really in a situation to change his circumstances at the moment, so in the meantime, he is just enjoying a little mini-break from all of the stress and pressure of being the hero and leader of a whacked-out group of plane crash survivors on some mystical topical island. The Other seem to have it pretty good. Good food, comfortable homes, hot women, etc. When in Rome....right. Hey, if you can't beat them, why not join them and have as much fun as you can in the mean time.

However, I have a feeling thatif Locke carries out his devious plans, that the Others may decide to send Jack back to the beach simply to protect themselves from any more attacts by his crazy and dangerous "friends".
We shouldn't read too much into this. This is really an anticlimactic ending to the episode, totally catches us off guard. Jack (or Matthew Fox) starred in "We Are Marshall", a movie about a football team. Consider other similar movie connections: The VW bus connection to "Little Miss Sunshine", and Desmond, who can see the future, who also saved the island, played Jesus in "The Gospel of John". The writers love to do this.

So, am I missing something? WE know that Christian is Jack's Dad, but Claire just had a memory of her real dad, some American doctor--she doesn't even know his name. Given that they can't compare their mental images, how exactly will it be revealed to Jack or Claire that they are related? Does Jack know he has a sister somewhere? There is a missing piece.

...

yeah, this mystery will probably wait until both Jack and Claire witness Smokey as Dr. Christian.

Don

But why should he have to assume responsiblity for all of them? 80 days ago they were all just a bunch of strangers. If Jack had a choice as to whom he had to be stranded with, I am not sure that that group of needy nut cases would have been the group he would have chosen. He may now be realizing that he doesn't have to be stuck with them afterall.

Because that is who Jack is. People, all people, are important to him. He doesn't judge them and doesn't set himself above anyone. He assumes responsibility for them because it's in his nature to do so, not because "he has to", which is what sets Jack apart from most. If Jack had a choice, he'd probably choose to not be stranded anywhere, but I doubt he's ever felt like he's "stuck" with them.

As for the Jack and Claire thing, it could be as simple as Jack having Christian's passport with his things and Claire stumbling across it or the Others/Juliet telling Jack. With all the kidnapping and blood napping and secret files on the Losties, you'd have to assume they know.

When I saw this, it reminded me of the intro sequence on The Wonder Years where Kevin is playing football with his dad. Jack and Tom were having a very weird father-son moment.

Is Jack this desperate for a father figure?

The whole thing just made me laugh.

The predictable story would be that Jack has a master plan and is just playing along for the moment. The bold and far more interesting story would be that Jack is motivated by selfish reasons, if only temporarily, as all of us are guilty of at some point. I love the idea of a Jack who is more complex and gray than we've been shown thus far.

We shouldn't read too much into this. This is really an anticlimactic ending to the episode, totally catches us off guard. Jack (or Matthew Fox) starred in "We Are Marshall", a movie about a football team. Consider other similar movie connections: The VW bus connection to "Little Miss Sunshine", and Desmond, who can see the future, who also saved the island, played Jesus in "The Gospel of John". The writers love to do this.


:biggrin: I like your take on things!
100%
The predictable story would be that Jack has a master plan and is just playing along for the moment. The bold and far more interesting story would be that Jack is motivated by selfish reasons, if only temporarily, as all of us are guilty of at some point. I love the idea of a Jack who is more complex and gray than we've been shown thus far.


Agreed. I hope that the writers don't take the predictable route. The alternative course of action is so much more entertaining!

I like to think that in the few days Jack has been with the others alone, that his perspective has completely changed. In order for this to happen they would have to explain to him a lot about who they are, which is good for us because that means we should find out soon too. It would be interesting if Jack tries to convince everyone the others are actually good and they need to resolve their differences with them. Some people would listen to Jack but some of the other survivors might not agree. We might see some separation in our survivors.

This brings up another thought with Jack...

What process occurred with Cindy the Stewardess, and how long did it take, for her to become acclimated to the Others way of thinking? She didn't look like she was just biding her time...

This was the best last scene ever on Lost.

Completely out there, but my first thought was that maybe we saw Jack's twin?

This was the best last scene ever on Lost.

Completely out there, but my first thought was that maybe we saw Jack's twin?

You can see his tattoos though so its defiantly him.

I like to think that in the few days Jack has been with the others alone, that his perspective has completely changed. In order for this to happen they would have to explain to him a lot about who they are, which is good for us because that means we should find out soon too. It would be interesting if Jack tries to convince everyone the others are actually good and they need to resolve their differences with them. Some people would listen to Jack but some of the other survivors might not agree. We might see some separation in our survivors.

I agree that his perspective seems to have certainly changed. But to try and have the losties play nice with the others would totally go against the tension that has been built up since this show began. The whole show is based on these opposing factions. To have wars you need enemies. If all the losties became "others" there'd be no more "others" only "thems" ;)

Unless of course there is some unknown as yet tribe afoot they can team up against.

well all the others seem to have respect for jack now after he helped ben. i'm sure that jack knows this and is using it to get what he wants.

Very strange.. GREAT ending! Loved the ending part of this with Jack tossing football, because it really convinces you that Jack is running towards them to get away from the others when really he turns around and grabs football and starts smiling.. soo hmmm... is Jack now an "other" or is he just making the best of things??

I like to think that in the few days Jack has been with the others alone, that his perspective has completely changed. In order for this to happen they would have to explain to him a lot about who they are, which is good for us because that means we should find out soon too. It would be interesting if Jack tries to convince everyone the others are actually good and they need to resolve their differences with them. Some people would listen to Jack but some of the other survivors might not agree. We might see some separation in our survivors.


The only problem with this, is are the Others all that interested in reaching out to the Losties? It appears they have an interest in select individuals, but by and large they want to maintain a healthy dose of seperation. Othersville is insulated for a reason.

Brainwashed? Nah.

He's just kicking back and enjoying the indoor plumbing, the piano, the pseudo-civilization and the recreation facilities. Right before he goes to sleep on a nice comfy bed with linens he probably hums a chorus of If My Friends Could See Me Now.

He likely thinks (or will claim) he's helping the other lostaways by consorting with the enemy, but historically speaking, people have been executed for less treasonous behavior.

I definitely don't think Jack is brainwashed. I guess the question is, if Jack wasn't playing football with Tom and hanging out in othersville what would he be doing? He could make a break for it and run into the jungle to try and find his way back to the lost beach. I think he is getting comfortable with Juliette. Maybe that is Ben's plan to make Jack want to stay with them. I don't know if that is a form of brainwashing. I think Jack is just playing along with them for now. We don't know what happened with him after they left on the boat.

Good point. I do think the end of this episode was set up so we'd get all confused like Kate and think Jack was brainwashed. But I'm thinking it's probably not that and he's acting.

I do think that it was pretty cool how they showed Jack running towards Sayid & Company as if he was "making a break for it". Then suddenly ..... uh! No, he is just playing some football. :biggrin:

My reaction to this scene was in regards to the meaning of his tattoo:
He walks amongst us, but he is not one of us.
As Isabel would say, it's ironic.

He's just kicking back and enjoying the indoor plumbing, the piano, the pseudo-civilization and the recreation facilities. Right before he goes to sleep on a nice comfy bed with linens he probably hums a chorus of If My Friends Could See Me Now.

OMG. You just made me choke on my coke.... Awsome!

I don´t like that Jack this with the others. not as it will be the plan, but I want to think that a plan for something is everything and not that really he I betray them. Now if that to Kate is going to him to cost to return to him. :ohwell:

Brainwashing...isn't that taking chances with his surgical abilities? Both the Others and the Losties need a doctor.

Even prisoners get yard time - maybe the football throw was Jack's?

I don't think it's been long enough for Jack to be brainwashed. But that last scene sure did leave me with my mouth opened. I think Jack is just biding his time in Otherville, and waiting for an opportunity.

So, Jack's sitting with Ben chatting over his care. Tom is sitting in the security center, and the fence pings. They know suddenly that the survivors are on their way.

Instead of a gun, Tom grabs a football. Then he grabs a gun!

He asks Jack if he wants to play catch, knowing 2 things, and figuring on a third.

1. If they see him playing football they may feel betrayed and turn back.
2. If they break the perimeter of the camp they won't open fire if Jack is there.
3. if they do pull something hinky or violent, Tom can grab Jack, put a gun to his throat and tell them to leave.

I don't think the football game has anything to do with Jack. The others have the whole island monitored and wired. They knew the survivors were coming, and knew exactly where they were.

The others have been messing with the losties ever since the moment they crashed. But now that Ben has his operation completed possibly they will have no interest in them any longer. But since the Genie is out of the lamp now I don't think they (losties) can be ignored by the others. They did hop their big bad looking high tech fence pretty easily.

clone

I think that Jack has been told the whole truth about who the others really are, and he now realizes that the "others" are not the true enemy. Whoever the security system is designed to keep out is the enemy.


And one of those "Hostiles" is Locke. The Great White Deceiver...

I still believe that jack is something "other" than what we have been led to believe.

On the pilot when another passenger panics during the crashing, Jack says, "Don't Worry, it will be okay."

Jack also says, "we can either live together or die alone." Is he referring to just the survivors or is he referring to the lostees AND the others?

Jack knows a lot more than a lostee should know IMO.

As for being on the dock and saying he has a plan, obviously he does have a plan, and it reaches well beyond him being a lostee.

The characters were made to be and act a certain way, not to just gain the other survivors trust, but to gain OUR trust as viewers. I still think Jack is the "Brilliant Man."

Jack is also short for Jacob.......

If Jack has joined the Others, maybe he wasn't brainwashed at all. Maybe Ben finally explained to Jack what the mission was all about, and Jack agreed that the end goal was worth the kidnapping and murder. :eek:

I think we know Jack well enough by now to know that he would never change sides. The dude has proven his sense of dedication many times.
Back when he finished the surgery on Ben, and Juliet told him Ben promised to let her go home, Jack had a look that made it clear to me that he realized he was being scammed and lied to. Ben promises this to everyone. I believe at that point, he decided to play along, be the new Doc on the block, and work from the inside. He has a plan of some sort. But first he has to gain their trust.Yes, I agree. If that person is the Jack that we know (I mean literally that person versus a clone or twin, etc.), he has a plan and he's putting it into motion.

No. Jack's planning to gain their trust, to learn more about them. So he can help HIS people know how to fight them.

But to do that, he's gonna have to convince them he is on THEIR side.

Thus, his actions in the Canadian promo tonight.

Just saying.I agree, STH. Oh! I need to see the Canadian promo!

for sure jack is using a false front. IMO, when one is in a situation such as he is in, (being isolated from the Losties, his allies, and being promised freedom by his "captors") it makes perfect sense for him to ACT as if he has surrendered all thoughts of escape/rebellion. the most logical choice for jack to make is one in which has the most benefits and the least amount of turmoil.

OR, he has been brainwashed.No, I don't think, IMHO, that he's been brainwashed. I think it's the Real Jack putting part of a plan into motion or it's his twin/clone...

Any discussion here that the Jack playing football may be a clone. What if all the losties have been cloned (not new to this forum), but what could be new is that the cloned characters are intended to replace the survivors (who were never meant to survive.)We've talked about it in the Quest Thread in the General Theories section. Someone posted a screencap of the Jack spiking the football and it showed a red tatoo by one of his elbows and nothing else tattoo-wise. Then, she put a screencap of Jack's arm from the Pilot, when his shirt was off (Yikes! ;)) and it showed the same arm with the tattoos. The red thing was on the arm, but the black tattoos were on it, too...

I think the idea of a cloned Jack is too farfetched even for LOST, then again...

The simplest explanation is probably the answer, such an answer being Jack trying to gain their trust.

Well, the simplest explantion is that his time with the Others clearly isn't that bad. Whether or not that changes his perspective on anything still remanins to be seen.

Can I just say that I think this moment is being overblown a bit?

Obviously, it was a great cliff hanger and has everyone wondering, but really, I think we will come to find out that this was an isolated moment in Jack's experience in Othersville.

My feeling is that he is still very much a captive, but is allowed to excersice/play under supervision from Tom.

Clearly, Kate is going to be suspicious since her last contact with Jack was him telling her not to come back for him. Its going to make for great dramtic conflict between them. But as a viewer, I'm not that shocked and think that taken in context of what we've learned about The Other's society so far, its not unbelievable that he's allowed to play a little football while generally still being a prisoner.

Does this make sense to anyone else?

Have you guys thought about this idea?

The explosion and the sonic wall, both should have been a good "alarm" for the others that there has been a breach of some kind.

Could the "others" who seem to know everything about everything have KNOWN that they were coming??

Maybe they MADE Jack pretend to be "turned"? Maybe we'll find out on the next episode ethe whole thing was a set up. Thoughts? ...

So, Jack's sitting with Ben chatting over his care. Tom is sitting in the security center, and the fence pings. They know suddenly that the survivors are on their way.

Instead of a gun, Tom grabs a football. Then he grabs a gun!

He asks Jack if he wants to play catch, knowing 2 things, and figuring on a third.

1. If they see him playing football they may feel betrayed and turn back.
2. If they break the perimeter of the camp they won't open fire if Jack is there.
3. if they do pull something hinky or violent, Tom can grab Jack, put a gun to his throat and tell them to leave.

I don't think the football game has anything to do with Jack. The others have the whole island monitored and wired. They knew the survivors were coming, and knew exactly where they were.

I like that. A reasonable explanation that doesn't involve Jack being a super human, super-hero.

Can I just say that I think this moment is being overblown a bit?

Obviously, it was a great cliff hanger and has everyone wondering, but really, I think we will come to find out that this was an isolated moment in Jack's experience in Othersville.

My feeling is that he is still very much a captive, but is allowed to excersice/play under supervision from Tom.

Clearly, Kate is going to be suspicious since her last contact with Jack was him telling her not to come back for him. Its going to make for great dramtic conflict between them. But as a viewer, I'm not that shocked and think that taken in context of what we've learned about The Other's society so far, its not unbelievable that he's allowed to play a little football while generally still being a prisoner.

Does this make sense to anyone else?

Sense? You want sense? From Lost? :105: This is season 3! All sense bets are off!

Do we think he is brainwashed or just accepting his fate????

Seemed like acceptance to me, although Im sure that theory will be rebutted next week. He got his friends off the island(in his mind they are safe) and so he must be content. Unless....That Jack was a clone. Just kidding...or am I?

Seemed like acceptance to me, although Im sure that theory will be rebutted next week. He got his friends off the island(in his mind they are safe) and so he must be content. Unless....That Jack was a clone. Just kidding...or am I?

You know, I'm not usually one to be down with the clone/alien/limbo theories, but this morning I said to a co-worker that I didn't think that the football Jack was really Jack at all. He was too passive with the whole captive thing.

This is a guy who freaked out when a girl wouldn't tattoo him, but he's gonna go all happy house-husband so quickly-I think not.

He's either medicated, brainwashed, or it simply ain't Jack.

Jack's tattoo did stand for something like "A great man, but not one of us."

And Jack isn't necessarily short for "Jacob." Jack is short for Johnathan.

The name James is derived from Jacob, as seen in the French form of James: "Jacques" and the term for the rule of King James in England being "Jacobian."

Just some unsolicited trivia. Take it or leave it.

Jack is less guarded now cause Sawer and Kate are back with everyone else (in his mind) and I think that he really wants to get off of the island and he will do what he needs to, to show the others he is willing. I know he doesn't really have anything back at home to return to but he doesn't really have anything at the island either, except maybe Juliet, so maybe his ultimate goal is to get the both of them off the island for good.

Heheh, "He plays ball with us, but he is not one of us"

Jack pretty much said he was going to make sure that Ben keeps his promise about letting Juliette and himself go. I believe that's his motivation to be looking so onboard with the Others, it's his best way to access any means to get out of there. I do believe he will come up with an angle to get the survivors off the island too but right now I'm not sure what that is. Of couse anything else that complicates this plot like Claire or Aaron, or brainwashing, would be possible too.

I'm so confused about Jack's situation. At first, I was appalled and disgusted at his behavior. Then I comprehended that Jack was playing football and started laughing historically. I don't know why. It just seems to odd that through all this, Jack and Tom are playing football.

jack spend a lot of time alone in his cage
and i am sure he did a lot of thinking.

i am sure he has a plan and is carrying it
out now.

i think he realized that fighting against
them wasn't working so now he
is playing along looking for
an opportunity to break free...

or at least he is buying time
to figure out what is happening
to him and what the "big plan" is
all about.

All this talk about letting Juliette and Jack "off the island" may have just meant they were going back to the barracks on the original island. The meaning may have been straight up literal.

Heheh, "He plays ball with us, but he is not one of us"

:roflmao: Priceless!

Jack is less guarded now cause Sawer and Kate are back with everyone else (in his mind) and I think that he really wants to get off of the island and he will do what he needs to, to show the others he is willing. I know he doesn't really have anything back at home to return to but he doesn't really have anything at the island either...

Except for those 40+ people left back there. He's been nothing but committed to them from the moment he gave his "live together die alone" speach. He gave his own blood to Boone, he told Kate he doesn't sleep at night thinking how to keep everyone safe, etc, etc, etc. Am I supposed to believe all of that, the very essence of his character has changed in five days?

I'm also confused why his being cozy in Otherville constitues betrayal, despicable behavior, etc. What exactly are his better options?

This entire episode verfies a theory I have regarding parallels between "Lost" and Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged". Keep in mind that Sawyer was reading another Ayn Rand novel ("The Fountainhead") in this episode. So there definitely seemed to be a attempt by the writers to introduce her philosophy this week. Let me explain:

"Atlas Shrugged" discusses the sudden disappearance of many "Great" individuals from the World. While the masses mourn the loss of these individuals and search everywhere for them (Kate Sayid, Locke), it turns out that these missing people are actually happy and content living in a secret utopian society that is invisible to the common person. (Jack playing football?).

In order to gain acceptance into the utopian world, each person must fully succumb to the "principles" of the society. Heres the catch: in most cases, this is not something that can be done willingly - its an innate mindset that some people are born with and others are not. In other words, the ticket for entry is a certain personality type (the list?), The main character, Dagny, especially struggles with this concept when she learns the location of the utopia. (Kate?).

Ayn Rand's books are both far reaching and controversial - this synopsis hasnt done them sufficient justice here. I just pointed out a few main concepts as they correlate to Lost. It will be interesting to see if the Rand Philosophy (she calls it "the Utopia of Greed") will manifest in the coming weeks.

FWIW, I thought about the connection several weeks ago when I noticed that Mrs Hawking (from the Desmond flashback) looks eerily similar to Ms Rand.

I agree with BeyondTheSea's words: "Even prisoners get yard time - maybe the football throw was Jack's?"

I don't believe Jack's been brainwashed, nor that we saw some Jack's twin or clone. We, and the group made of Kate, Locke, Sayid & Danielle, simply haven't seen enough. It's been like spying into a room from the keyhole. The first thing I thought on seeing Jack's running and playing football was: "What's really going on in the surroundings?"

Jack could have been under surveillance, maybe not in a obvious "guards pointing rifles at him" way not to upset the other inhabitants of the Barracks (you know, the "normal" people we saw in Juliet's house at the beginning of Season 3, discussing the book). And so Jack was trying to squeeze out the best from that moment.

It is also reasonable to think that perhaps – as other people here have suggested – the Others have told Jack things which have changed his perspective. Or that they have asked him to help them with something and that involves being physically ready – it could explain the exercising and the football playing.

Just my two cents,
Rick

This entire episode verfies a theory I have regarding parallels between "Lost" and Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged". Keep in mind that Sawyer was reading another Ayn Rand novel ("The Fountainhead") in this episode. So there definitely seemed to be a attempt by the writers to introduce her philosophy this week. Let me explain:

"Atlas Shrugged" discusses the sudden disappearance of many "Great" individuals from the World. While the masses mourn the loss of these individuals and search everywhere for them (Kate Sayid, Locke), it turns out that these missing people are actually happy and content living in a secret utopian society that is invisible to the common person. (Jack playing football?).

In order to gain acceptance into the utopian world, each person must fully succumb to the "principles" of the society. Heres the catch: in most cases, this is not something that can be done willingly - its an innate mindset that some people are born with and others are not. In other words, the ticket for entry is a certain personality type (the list?), The main character, Dagny, especially struggles with this concept when she learns the location of the utopia. (Kate?).

Ayn Rand's books are both far reaching and controversial - this synopsis hasnt done them sufficient justice here. I just pointed out a few main concepts as they correlate to Lost. It will be interesting to see if the Rand Philosophy (she calls it "the Utopia of Greed") will manifest in the coming weeks.



BTW, I thought about the connection between Lost and ayn Rand several weeks ago when I noticed that Mrs Hawking (from the Desmond flashback) looks eerily similar to Ms Rand

Pretty darned good second post there Visual and makes a great deal of sense. Earlier in this thread I attemped to spit out what you have made pretty clear here.

BTW, I thought about the connection between Lost and ayn Rand several weeks ago when I noticed that Mrs Hawking (from the Desmond flashback) looks eerily similar to Ms Rand


Wow. Thats impressive.

Pretty darned good second post there Visual and makes a great deal of sense. Earlier in this thread I attemped to spit out what you have made pretty clear here.

Also, if Im not mistaken, the utopian world in Atlas Shrugged was "hidden" by a space age force-field. Sound familiar?

"A screen of rays projecting a refracted image, like a mirage, intended to camouflage the valley's existence".

http://www.atlassociety.org/cth--1709-AtlasShruggedSynopsis.aspx

Also, if Im not mistaken, the utopian world in Atlas Shrugged was "hidden" by a space age force-field. Sound familiar?

"A screen of rays projecting a refracted image, like a mirage, intended to camouflage the valley's existence".

http://www.atlassociety.org/cth--1709-AtlasShruggedSynopsis.aspx

yeah, that's dystopian, but you are correct.

Don

Soooooo, let's pretend for a minute that we are all gamblers, and I'm going to ask you to put your money where your mouth is. You have $US 100 available to bet, would you put it on number one or number two? Don't think about where you would want the story to go, think about where you believe TPTB will take this story

Jack's behavior at Otherville is part of an elaborate plan he hatched
Jack's behavior at Otherville is the result of something else (he's selfish, he wants to get off the island, he's a clone, he's been brainwashed, he got tired of taking care of the beachies, he's an Other, he's HIM, he understand the Others' motivations now - they are not so bad, he's....)

:clapping:, CL!!

But it doesn't hurt to theorize, and some of these ideas are good ones, even if they aren't the ones TPTB have/are going to have ended up using. That's the beauty of this show: it gets peoples' MINDS working, gets discussions and debates going. Nothing wrong with that! :thumbsup:

Soooooo, let's pretend for a minute that we are all gamblers, and I'm going to ask you to put your money where your mouth is. You have $US 100 available to bet, would you put it on number one or number two? Don't think about where you would want the story to go, think about where you believe TPTB will take this story

Jack's behavior at Otherville is part of an elaborate plan he hatchedI'll go with that one, except I don't think it's a plan and I don't think it's elaborate. He just happens to be where their best bet of contacting the outside world is. This was completely unexpected because we know from his conversation with Tom in SIASL that he thought they'd kill him.

He's probably in "wait, watch and see" mode. :biggrin:

Soooooo, let's pretend for a minute that we are all gamblers, and I'm going to ask you to put your money where your mouth is. You have $US 100 available to bet, would you put it on number one or number two? Don't think about where you would want the story to go, think about where you believe TPTB will take this story

Jack's behavior at Otherville is part of an elaborate plan he hatched
Jack's behavior at Otherville is the result of something else (he's selfish, he wants to get off the island, he's a clone, he's been brainwashed, he got tired of taking care of the beachies, he's an Other, he's HIM, he understand the Others' motivations now - they are not so bad, he's....)

Absolutely tptb will write number one, because Jack is their super hero. Number two would not be possible. And THAT is the problem with the character of Jack. Human beings are capable of doing just about anything. Most of the Lost characters are capable of anything, if the circumstances are right. Look at Locke. He might pull you up, if you've fallen over a cliff. (as in WR) Or he might shove you into a fence of death, if you know his secrets. (as in PA)

But not Jack. Jack always does right, in the end. If he does something bad, it's because he has good reason. Or so they would have us believe. No one is like that, really. You can't have a show of multifaceted characters and then try to center it around a character written in such a way that you can practically say what he's going to say and do (or at the very least know exactly what is going to motivate him to say and do it) and expect for the show to make any kind of sense, characterwise.

eta: I take that back. It works really well for Super Man.

:clapping:, CL!!

But it doesn't hurt to theorize, and some of these ideas are good ones, even if they aren't the ones TPTB have/are going to have ended up using. That's the beauty of this show: it gets peoples' MINDS working, gets discussions and debates going. Nothing wrong with that! :thumbsup:

Except that your mind doesn't really need to work to be able to correctly answer this particular question.

they looked like one big happy family, didn't they? i hope he is just making the best of his situation. it aapears that they don't keep him caged on this island. i wonder what happened to make him suddenly not a prisoner.
Falling in love with Juliette?

Last week I predicted that the final scene this week would be Kate creeping through the jungle into Otherville, only to encounter Jack making out with Juliette. I was wrong about that, but it was almost as bad for her to encounter Jack happily playing football with the guy who:
1. kidnapped Walt
2. shot Sawyer
3. tried to kill Michael and Jin by throwing a bomb at their boat
4. captured, blindfolded and threated to kill Kate if Jack, Sawyer
and Locke didn't throw down their weapons
5. persuaded Michael to kill two losties and betray his friends
5. shot Jack, Sawyer and Kate with darts
6. imprisoned and tormented Kate and Sawyer

I mean, why wouldn't Jack want to play with such a great guy?