What did Mikhail mean by this? What greater cause is at work that those not on the list cannot understand? What is it that the list identifies that makes people capable of understanding?

Back in "Maternity Leave" last season, Tom is having it out with Ethan, who has brought Claire to The Staff Station. Tom is angry at him, because he was SUPPOSED to be back at the fusies' beach camp making up a list of "good" people. During this tirade, he refered to the fusies as "animals."

THERE is your answer. These people clearly think that anyone not "good," not on Jacob's List, are a lesser species. Thus, whatever their Grand Reason For Being On The Island is, these "lesser" beings do not have the intellectual level to grasp it. Mikhail and all of Jacob's chosen honestly see themselves as a superior lifeform. Thus, Mikhail's disdainful attitude toward the rescue party.

Back in "Maternity Leave" last season, Tom is having it out with Ethan, who has brought Claire to The Staff Station. Tom is angry at him, because he was SUPPOSED to be back at the fusies' beach camp making up a list of "good" people. During this tirade, he refered to the fusies as "animals."

THERE is your answer. These people clearly think that anyone not "good," not on Jacob's List, are a lesser species. Thus, whatever their Grand Reason For Being On The Island is, these "lesser" beings do not have the intellectual level to grasp it. Mikhail and all of Jacob's chosen honestly see themselves as a superior lifeform. Thus, Mikhail's disdainful attitude toward the rescue party.

Right, I agree- but what specifically are they not able to grasp? And what specific attributes make them good?

I think it was mostly arrogance talking when he said that. He was a really creepy character, and it's kind of a shame he had to die so early in the show.
Then again, any character who might actually give answers seems to die rather suddenly. ;)

i think he directed that comment to Kate and Sayid.

Locke and Danielle seemed to understand perfectly well.

Boy is Locke acting funny.

Back in "Maternity Leave" last season, Tom is having it out with Ethan, who has brought Claire to The Staff Station. Tom is angry at him, because he was SUPPOSED to be back at the fusies' beach camp making up a list of "good" people. During this tirade, he refered to the fusies as "animals."

THERE is your answer. These people clearly think that anyone not "good," not on Jacob's List, are a lesser species. Thus, whatever their Grand Reason For Being On The Island is, these "lesser" beings do not have the intellectual level to grasp it. Mikhail and all of Jacob's chosen honestly see themselves as a superior lifeform. Thus, Mikhail's disdainful attitude toward the rescue party.

YES. Exactly! So many clues have been given to us concerning how the Others feel about the castaways. Kate and Sawyer were locked in cages. Jack was later locked in a cage, and people came out to "observe" him like we do when we go to see animals at the zoo.

Something about Jack's detainment in the cages and the Others' fascination with him gave me two thoughts, specifically.

The first was that he was like an exotic animal to them. Like a lion, or something else that is dangerous yet majestic at the same time.

The second was that Jack will actually become very important. As if the Others who were observing him had read about him in history books, and they wanted to get a look at THE Dr. Jack Shephard. This second possibility could only mean that he'll be of significant value to the Others' culture later on in the series.

Then again, any character who might actually give answers seems to die rather suddenly. ;)

I actually hope it stays that way. Everyone was complaining about this show not giving any answers - but the answers coming in the form of Q&A sessions with enemy characters is the most disinteresting way possible. We need them to discover the answers, hopefully in pieces; not be given them all at once in boring conversations.

Boy is Locke acting funny.

I agree. I have had a speculation about him for a while but my ex gf wouldn't buy into it because she likes him the best.

All I know is that I think at least one of the losties who was told that he/she was "not on the list" was indeed on the list. It would be a test. Matrix-style. The most likely candidate is probably Jack.

Dude, the "Not capable of understanding" thing has been racking my brain for a while. I don't like to think too far outside the box because afterall, this is a show that has promised logic.

It is an interesting point, no matter what your theory is, no doubt.

It seems pretty obvious. The Others have been told by Jacob they are a superior breed of man, Nietzchean ubermensch, if you will. And they've bought into it. It's not true, but the Others are a cult and it's a lot easier to live on Craphole Island and push buttons and walk into sonic fences if you think you have a destiny and are a superman that to realize you're a self-deluded moron who is being used (for what purpose we don't yet know).


In my opinion, Jacob is ex-Dharma specializing in psychological manipulation, who broke off from Dharma, got himself a god-complex and built a little religion around himself out of the natives, other Dharmians that he couldconvert (like Tom) and then other people on the mainland he could bamboozle (like Mikhail).

The second was that Jack will actually become very important. As if the Others who were observing him had read about him in history books, and they wanted to get a look at THE Dr. Jack Shephard. This second possibility could only mean that he'll be of significant value to the Others' culture later on in the series.

On the order of: The tattoos show that Jack was a great man, a leader, and this makes him angry. It also makes him lonely.

In order to not be lonely, yet still be a great man and leader, is to have adoration by the people he leads.

It seems pretty obvious. The Others have been told by Jacob they are a superior breed of man, Nietzchean ubermensch, if you will. And they've bought into it. It's not true, but the Others are a cult and it's a lot easier to live on Craphole Island and push buttons and walk into sonic fences if you think you have a destiny and are a superman that to realize you're a self-deluded moron who is being used (for what purpose we don't yet know).


In my opinion, Jacob is ex-Dharma specializing in psychological manipulation, who broke off from Dharma, got himself a god-complex and built a little religion around himself out of the natives, other Dharmians that he couldconvert (like Tom) and then other people on the mainland he could bamboozle (like Mikhail).


Thats is the most logical thing I heard EVER about what the heck is going on here.

:fight2:

I thought when Mikhael told them that they weren't capable of understanding because they weren't on the list was really freaky, yet interesting, and he was specifically looking at Sayid and Kate with a certain disdain. But then he looked over to Locke, and he gave him a really weird look...something not quite right. I have a feeling Locke IS on the list...hmm but i'm not sure. Then again he did say it was because of his anger.

Funny how he didn't even talk about or acknowledge Danielle wasn't it? He knew all there names apart from Danielle.

Something is going on with Danielle, i have a feeling that they're going to go inside the barracks next week (which is common sense because they're not just gonna sit in the bushes and watch Jack play football for the whole episode) and then Danielle is going to screw them over.

Either way there should be some feisty encounters next week.

I don't think Jack was on the list. He had to beg and plead to get on that flight and he almost didn't make it.

Theres a difference between, "not capable of understanding..." and "not going to appreciate..."

If Mikhail suddenly turns around and says: "Ok, this is how it is, we are all instructed by aliens to keep this society secret since they use it as a landing base, the list is a list of names of those of u that believe in aliens"
There is no way in hell he is not going to get a response like: "What the hell are you talking about?" "Thats ridiculous" and "You are insane!".

Mikhail obviously didn't think Sayid, Kate and the rest would be able to appreciate what he had to say.


-Exodus

Theres a difference between, "not capable of understanding..." and "not going to appreciate..."

If Mikhail suddenly turns around and says: "Ok, this is how it is, we are all instructed by aliens to keep this society secret since they use it as a landing base, the list is a list of names of those of u that believe in aliens"
There is no way in hell he is not going to get a response like: "What the hell are you talking about?" "Thats ridiculous" and "You are insane!".

Mikhail obviously didn't think Sayid, Kate and the rest would be able to appreciate what he had to say.

-Exodus

Like you just said, they may not have appreciated the answer, but Mikhail said that they wouldn't be able to understand. I would certainly understand that answer of aliens, or anything else that would be absurd, whatever is going on there, without believing it, without "appreciating" it, most could understand it.

I like what Marksman said, about being brainwashed henchmen that believe they are superior, but maybe there is actually something that makes them superior (and I don't mean blonde hair and blue eyes)? Possibly the ability to regulate your emotions, as the afflictions Mikhail pointed out (weak, angry, etc.) were emotional deficiencies. Only people that can seperate emotion from thier logic and actions can understand?

Back in "Maternity Leave" last season, Tom is having it out with Ethan, who has brought Claire to The Staff Station. Tom is angry at him, because he was SUPPOSED to be back at the fusies' beach camp making up a list of "good" people. During this tirade, he refered to the fusies as "animals."

THERE is your answer. These people clearly think that anyone not "good," not on Jacob's List, are a lesser species. Thus, whatever their Grand Reason For Being On The Island is, these "lesser" beings do not have the intellectual level to grasp it. Mikhail and all of Jacob's chosen honestly see themselves as a superior lifeform. Thus, Mikhail's disdainful attitude toward the rescue party.

That's an interesting theory, Jack...'cept Tom NEVER said anything of the sort...

ETHAN: Wait here, I'll be right back.
CLAIRE: Okay.
VOICE: What the hell happened? You were supposed to make the list and then bring her in. Was I unclear?
ETHAN: It's not my fault. They knew I wasn't on the plane. They had a manifest.
[The voice is revealed as Mr. Friendly, without his beard and grubby clothes.]
MR. FRIENDLY: What am I supposed to tell him? You know what he's going to do when he finds out. Damn it, Ethan.
[Mr. Friendly notices Claire listening and closes the door.]

Like you just said, they may not have appreciated the answer, but Mikhail said that they wouldn't be able to understand. I would certainly understand that answer of aliens, or anything else that would be absurd, whatever is going on there, without believing it, without "appreciating" it, most could understand it.

I like what Marksman said, about being brainwashed henchmen that believe they are superior, but maybe there is actually something that makes them superior (and I don't mean blonde hair and blue eyes)? Possibly the ability to regulate your emotions, as the afflictions Mikhail pointed out (weak, angry, etc.) were emotional deficiencies. Only people that can seperate emotion from thier logic and actions can understand?


Im not saying there isnt a superiority complex going around here, but the important part is how they would appreciate it.

Imagine a devoted Christian arguing with a Die hard atheist, both trying to convince the other that they are the winning argument. (ridiculous, i know) They would never reach a conclusion, even thou both sides would certainly understand what the other is saying, they would never appreciate the others point of view. And so the Christian would feel the Atheist unequipped to understand what he was trying to say, and the Atheist would feel the Christian incapable of grasping the concept of his argument.


-Exodus

That line kinda reminds me of the movie with Jack Nickelson ...

"The truth? You want the truth? YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!"

I go the impression that Sayid and Kate did not posess the right kind of understanding and belief. Remember Locke believes in the island and its purpose (whatever that is).

I don't think Jack was on the list. He had to beg and plead to get on that flight and he almost didn't make it.

We already know that Jack was not on the list. Pickett said so earlier this season.

I like what Marksman said, about being brainwashed henchmen that believe they are superior, but maybe there is actually something that makes them superior (and I don't mean blonde hair and blue eyes)? Possibly the ability to regulate your emotions, as the afflictions Mikhail pointed out (weak, angry, etc.) were emotional deficiencies.

That's self-fulfilling. When someone convinces you that you're superior, you start acting like it's true. You walk around with more confidence. You ignore the petty differences that would otherwise cause issues. You forgive yourself for whatever your past sins may have been.

Heck, Klugh and Bakunin had a nasty and emotional spat before he shot her. And yet he has the audacity to smirk when Sayid and Locke argue about who blew up the hatch? The Others have no more capacity to control their emotions than the Losties. Maybe they have some psy-ops training. Maybe they work out. That's it.

I don't even think there's aquestion but that they are self-deluded into thinking they are better than those not on the list.

The only possible quibble is that Ethan appeared to have super-strength when he lifted Jack by his throat in Season 1. But that might simply have been adrenalin (and steroids) and the fact that the Losties are starting to get malnourished.

Does anyone else think this has a very Planet of the Apes feel to it? The apes in the movie clearly regarded humans as a lesser species. So...what if the Losties are no longer in their present, but in the future? In the future, man has evolved to the point where anyone from circa 2004 is regarded as an "animal" and therefore not capable of understanding. This would help explain how the Others know so much - because it's history. History that is archived, stored, and accessible to the Others. Like the Red Sox winning the World Series in 2004.

Maybe the electromagnetic pulse ruptured the time-space continuum and allowed 815 to alter another dimension or universe. The Others know this because they're able to access records about the "crash" of Flight 815, along with personal histories of all those "killed" on the plane. Patchy knows Locke as paralyzed because that's how he's described in the account of 815. Granted, it would be a little unusual to have the personal histories of crash victims publicly available, but who knows.

Does anyone else think this has a very Planet of the Apes feel to it? The apes in the movie clearly regarded humans as a lesser species. So...what if the Losties are no longer in their present, but in the future? In the future, man has evolved to the point where anyone from circa 2004 is regarded as an "animal" and therefore not capable of understanding. This would help explain how the Others know so much - because it's history. History that is archived, stored, and accessible to the Others. Like the Red Sox winning the World Series in 2004.

Maybe the electromagnetic pulse ruptured the time-space continuum and allowed 815 to alter another dimension or universe. The Others know this because they're able to access records about the "crash" of Flight 815, along with personal histories of all those "killed" on the plane. Patchy knows Locke as paralyzed because that's how he's described in the account of 815. Granted, it would be a little unusual to have the personal histories of crash victims publicly available, but who knows.

You're on to something. The purpose of Dharma was to prevent the end of the world. They also had Juliet reference her time on the island giving the number of days so we can later find out how things do not add up because of some weird time anomaly.

But while the personal histories would not be publicly available a person with the right connections could get that information. Either that or the crash is a conspiracy that was planned.

...said the scientist to the rabbit

There are three survivors who currently "understand" wanting to be on the island: Rose, Bernard and Locke, all apparently for the same reason. Jin may be added to that "list" at some point.

So what aren't they capable of understanding?

Right now I'm leaning towards it being a moral issue. Whatever is being done on that island, is something that most people would not agree with.

Some exprement or something. Right now to me it looks like, everyone who is not on the list. Is very strong in their own sense of right and wrong.

They have all done wrong, but none of them are people to be swayed by anyone else. No matter what is said to them. In other words, everyone not on the list is hard headed and would cause a problem if they found out what was going on. No amount of talking would get them to change sides.

They also pretty much think in black and white. No greys. You can either explaine it or you can't.

Where someone like John, pretty much believes in magic. Kate, Syaid or Swayer would never believe in a million years that the island healed him. They would look for another reason for him being able to walk. A nice logical answer.

.

Does anyone else think this has a very Planet of the Apes feel to it? The apes in the movie clearly regarded humans as a lesser species. So...what if the Losties are no longer in their present, but in the future? In the future, man has evolved to the point where anyone from circa 2004 is regarded as an "animal" and therefore not capable of understanding. This would help explain how the Others know so much - because it's history. History that is archived, stored, and accessible to the Others. Like the Red Sox winning the World Series in 2004.

Maybe the electromagnetic pulse ruptured the time-space continuum and allowed 815 to alter another dimension or universe. The Others know this because they're able to access records about the "crash" of Flight 815, along with personal histories of all those "killed" on the plane. Patchy knows Locke as paralyzed because that's how he's described in the account of 815. Granted, it would be a little unusual to have the personal histories of crash victims publicly available, but who knows.

I tip my hat to you...finally, a theory that sounds fairly logical.

It's funny you mentioned Apes-another post earlier in the thread commented on when Jack was in the cage and it seemed like he was an animal in the zoo-

that reminded me of a great Twilight Zone when the guy is on Mars and he thinks they (Martians) have given him a lovely human house to live in, only to find out later it has no windows, no doors, and he is in a human zoo where the Martians come to gawk at those nasty humans...just like Jack.

Back in "Maternity Leave" last season, Tom is having it out with Ethan, who has brought Claire to The Staff Station. Tom is angry at him, because he was SUPPOSED to be back at the fusies' beach camp making up a list of "good" people. During this tirade, he refered to the fusies as "animals."


Are you sure? This is the exchange between Tom and Ethan:


TOM: What the hell happened? You were supposed to make the list and then bring her in. Was I unclear?

ETHAN: It's not my fault. They knew I wasn't on the plane. They had a manifest.

TOM: Well, what am I supposed to tell him? You know what he's gonna do when he finds out? Damn it, Ethan.


I don't see any degrading reference to the Losties.

Cheers
Rick

I don't think Jack was on the list. He had to beg and plead to get on that flight and he almost didn't make it.
Ok, I'm confused. Are there multiple lists -- the ones made by Ethan, etc., and then Jacob's list?

Regarding Jacob's list -- why do we assume all the people on the list have to be on flight 815?

Imagine a list of "good" people that will eventually make their way onto the island over the years through fate or manipulation and by whatever means -- plane, boat, balloon. etc. Then imagine a prophecy whereby the individuals on said list might accomplish something great. The DHARMAns might want to scour any new arrivals on the island and "kidnap" them (or bring them to the island, as in Juliet's case) -- for the greater good (whatever that may be, and it may not even be good).

Remember the whole Rambaldi plot from JJ's other hit show, Alias? Just throwing it out there -- there may be an entire "prophecy"/religion subplot going on here.

also, does juliette "understand" ? she wants to leave, after all...

Anyone ever think that maybe the list contain these names:

Boone
Shannon
Ana Lucia
Libby
Eko
Charlie

And that it's a death list?? Maybe you DON'T want to be on the bloody list at all??

Well, it seems like the others make a lot of lists for a lot of different reasons. The one Ana Lucia found in "the other 48 days" I think, had people on it that the Others thought would be a problem, wasn't Echo on it? To get rid of the strongest first. Then we have Micheals list in 3 minutes with Jack, Kate, Sawyer, and Hurley on it. Now we know why they chose these specific people , Jack to do the Surgery and Kate and Sawyer as leverage to get Jack to do it. And Hurley to use as a messanger to keep the other Losties away. Am I missing any list? So who knows why This List was made? List of people who are Capable of understanding? This whole List thing is wierd and there never very long, you'd think for security purposes they would make people memorize this stuff rather than risk one of the losties finding a List, Like Ana Lucia did.

I think this is a battle between the writers of Lost and Heroes to see who's is bigger...

ehhh, oops, the list I mean, whose list is bigger!!

Now if a new character suddenly appears on the island in a cheerleading uniform, be afraid!!

You know it just came to me (I might be a little slower than some of you out there).

Julliette came to the island AFTER the "purge" The stations appear to be abandoned for run-down for much longer than three years.

I wonder if Julliet does understand and was specifically "recruited" because of it.

It seems pretty obvious. The Others have been told by Jacob they are a superior breed of man, Nietzchean ubermensch, if you will. And they've bought into it. It's not true, but the Others are a cult and it's a lot easier to live on Craphole Island and push buttons and walk into sonic fences if you think you have a destiny and are a superman that to realize you're a self-deluded moron who is being used (for what purpose we don't yet know).


In my opinion, Jacob is ex-Dharma specializing in psychological manipulation, who broke off from Dharma, got himself a god-complex and built a little religion around himself out of the natives, other Dharmians that he couldconvert (like Tom) and then other people on the mainland he could bamboozle (like Mikhail).


I'd largely agree with that. Previously I'd suspected that the 'Others' were the remnants of the Dharma research experiment into 'Utopian Society' that's referenced in the Pearl orientation and also in 'The Lost Experience'.

Looks like they are a mix of ex-Dharma and the local population of the Island (presumably descended from castaways who landed on the island in the past). The big question is 'Who is Jacob'? A prime candidate would have to be Gerald DeGroot as he was clearly a driving force behind the Dharma organisation but I guess it could be anyone in view of the fact that braindwashing is used to induct people. Once someone got into a leadership position, they kept the rest in line with brainawashing and psychological manipulation.

Looks like they assimilate newly arrived castaways to swell their numbers. In this case, they wanted a list of names of survivors so they could pull their files from the outside world and assess who was suitable to join their 'cult'.

It's intruiging what their precise relationship is with the outside world though. Presumably they need something and they also have something special to offer (the Island).

Anyone ever think that maybe the list contain these names:

Boone
Shannon
Ana Lucia
Libby
Eko
Charlie

And that it's a death list?? Maybe you DON'T want to be on the bloody list at all??


:42:Wow, good point.

Back in "Maternity Leave" last season, Tom is having it out with Ethan, who has brought Claire to The Staff Station. Tom is angry at him, because he was SUPPOSED to be back at the fusies' beach camp making up a list of "good" people. During this tirade, he refered to the fusies as "animals."

THERE is your answer. These people clearly think that anyone not "good," not on Jacob's List, are a lesser species. Thus, whatever their Grand Reason For Being On The Island is, these "lesser" beings do not have the intellectual level to grasp it. Mikhail and all of Jacob's chosen honestly see themselves as a superior lifeform. Thus, Mikhail's disdainful attitude toward the rescue party.

What defines good to them?

Sawyer was on the list, but his flashbacks show he isnt a good person as know it

I think whatever the Others are up to, it's evil. However, they believe it is ultimately for the greater good. They keep insisting that they're the good guys, despite all the evidence to the contrary. The Losties don't "get" the Others, because even though they all have sketchy pasts, they are haunted by that, and I think deep down they are truly good people. The Others are not. They do whatever is needed to keep their agenda alive and well, and never look back. They are up to something very sinister, and what the Losties can't understand is the Others' point of view. Hitler thought he was doing everyone a favor, but thankfully there were plenty of people who didn't see things his way. Using that example, I think the "superior race" idea ties in perfectly too. The Others' probably do think they're above the "little people" who can't see things their way. I sure wouldn't want to be on their list.

I took Michael’s statement to be the typical arrogance of a cult member towards outsiders.
I agree with Cariadlawn that
The Others' probably do think they're above the "little people" who can't see things their way. I sure wouldn't want to be on their list.

This locks (no pun intended) in with an old theory of mine: that the Others identify with the Jewish people. They see themselves as a special, chosen people like Israel is to the God of the Hebrew Scriptures. The main clues for this for me have been names like Benjamin and Jacob.

What defines good to them?

Sawyer was on the list, but his flashbacks show he isnt a good person as know it
:wallbash:

One more time: The list Klugh gave Michael was for people SHE (and Ben) wanted captured, for the purpose of Jack operating on Ben (with James & Kate as "collateral" if Jack was reluctant).

This is NOT the same as Jacob's List, which is the list of people acceptable for assimilation into the Islanders' culture.



Sorry. I'll go take a :chillpill: now.

What did Mikhail mean by this? What greater cause is at work that those not on the list cannot understand? What is it that the list identifies that makes people capable of understanding?


To me, to was just TPTB's way to avoid advancing a plotline and trying to spooky and mysterious. They do things like this on the rare occassion that a character exhibits some intelligence and actually asks a question.

Notice Mikhail didn't say, I'm not going to tell you or I can't answer that. No, he gives the vague Lost answer of "You are not capable of understanding". It reminds me of Cindy's ridculous answer to Jack, "We're here to watch". What's with this cheesey B-moive dialogue?

When Mikhail said, "You are not capable of understanding", someone should have said go ahead and tell us anyway, we'll do are best to understand.




Dude, the "Not capable of understanding" thing has been racking my brain for a while. I don't like to think too far outside the box because afterall, this is a show that has promised logic.



I think that promise was broken long, long ago.

I thought when Mikhael told them that they weren't capable of understanding because they weren't on the list was really freaky, yet interesting, and he was specifically looking at Sayid and Kate with a certain disdain. But then he looked over to Locke, and he gave him a really weird look...something not quite right. I have a feeling Locke IS on the list...hmm but i'm not sure. Then again he did say it was because of his anger.

Remember Ben telling Locke that he came to the camp for him after he had been captured? I think that the Others are playing Locke because of his psychological profile to need to believe and belong to something greater than himself. We learned that in his flashback episode about the commune this season.

In my opinion, Jacob is ex-Dharma specializing in psychological manipulation, who broke off from Dharma, got himself a god-complex and built a little religion around himself
If so, it could be a reference to "Heart of Darkness" by Joseph Conrad.

Lord, I hated that book, but yes. It's like Heart of Darkness.
Jacob=Kurtz.
Jack=Marlow
Mikhail=Russian trader
Others=Natives.
Dharma/Hanso=The Company.

So we should be on the lookout for Heart of Darkness on Sawyer's reading list?

I certainly felt the pangs of a "superior species" in what mikhail was saying.

This is NOT the same as Jacob's List, which is the list of people acceptable for assimilation into the Islanders' culture.


I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one. We know that Jack was not on the list, but he is closest to being "assimilated" into their culture (ok except for Cindy and the kids, but that still makes him pretty "high on the list" haha). One could also argue that, if Jack isn't on the list, Kate and Sawyer must be, but I think Kate and Sawyer are the last people the Others would want moving into Otherville.

Ok, back to the question at hand. I think the most reasonable conclusion for us to make is that the Others are so obsessed with good vs bad people because they are choosing who should represent humanity after an apocalypse. It's also possible that this has something to do with the sickness and "genetic targets", but IMO this is less likely.

I think there is some major "perspective" thing going on with regard to how the lostaways are seen by "others" and others... Remember the look on Cindy's face when Jack got mad at her for "watching" him in the cage... She was genuinely confused as to why he would be so mad!

Lord, I hated that book, but yes. It's like Heart of Darkness.
Oh, I loved that book. My favorite book from my college literature days. What was so amazing is that English wasn't even Conrad's native language.

May I ask, why everyone here is talking about Jacob's list?
I mean, we don't know for sure, that there is a guy called Jacob! Or is it just a (random) name for the overall leader of the Others, which you are using?
Everywhere I see people talking about this Jacob, but I can only remember seeing this name in the brainwashing video...

As for not understanding, I think, that the Others have created their own society where they all live in peace with each other and are willing to do everything, even dying or killing to protect this! And no one except for people who don't accept "our" societies would be able to understand, why they are living far from any civilization and want to stay on this island.

If only those "not flawed" are on the list, why did they try to take Eko?

When Mikhail said, "You are not capable of understanding", someone should have said go ahead and tell us anyway, we'll do are best to understand.

Are you conveniently forgetting that Kate said "try me" to Mikhail? ;)

This is NOT the same as Jacob's List, which is the list of people acceptable for assimilation into the Islanders' culture.


The Others are super-protective of their island and culture, right? My thought is that eventually, all of our Losties will join the Others. They will join to protect the island and keep it secret so the outside world doesn't destroy it. Locke and Rose obviously want to protect it since that is the place where they are healed. People like Kate and possibly Sawyer will want to protect it since they are free on the island. What other reasons will there be for our Losties wanting to stay and never be rescued?

One could also argue that, if Jack isn't on the list, Kate and Sawyer must be, but I think Kate and Sawyer are the last people the Others would want moving into Otherville.


No. They were on Ben's list that Klugh gave to Michael. To me it's pretty clear that that they were there as leverage to be used to convince Jack to do the operation on Ben.


I think there is some major "perspective" thing going on with regard to how the lostaways are seen by "others" and others... Remember the look on Cindy's face when Jack got mad at her for "watching" him in the cage... She was genuinely confused as to why he would be so mad!

Cindy and the Kids where there to watch Juliet's trial. Not Jack.

May I ask, why everyone here is talking about Jacob's list?
I mean, we don't know for sure, that there is a guy called Jacob! Or is it just a (random) name for the overall leader of the Others, which you are using?
Everywhere I see people talking about this Jacob, but I can only remember seeing this name in the brainwashing video...


He was referred to by name by Pickett. He said Jack was not even on Jacob's list.

We are not capable of understanding this stupid show.....
BECAUSE WE ARE NOT THE WRITERS WITH ALL THE ANSWERS TO THE MYSTERIES OF THE ISLAND!

We are not capable of understanding this stupid show.....
BECAUSE WE ARE NOT THE WRITERS WITH ALL THE ANSWERS TO THE MYSTERIES OF THE ISLAND!What makes you so sure the writers know all the answers to the show?:rolleyes: I am doubting it more and more. ;) Perahps in the future they will after It Is Written.

Think I will go with there being more than one list and who's on each list depends on why the list was made.

One's a list of those who frequent the Loved It! thread, and the other's a list of those who frequent the Didn't Love It! thread.

The people on one of those lists are doomed! ;)

With all of the references and motifs to The Buddha, and Buddhism itself, I tend to think that 'incabable of understanding' followed by his explanation of 'your angry, your flawed, you are not ready..' are examples of a person who had not completely submitted him/herself to the ways of the world. It's too much to post. Just look up or search 'upside down Buddha' and read into it. There are main ideals in Buddhism that center around self acceptance, giving up material objects, being pure in mind and body, and being a glass that is right side up...means something like... ready to recieve input, or teaching, or being a good listener.

Here's my viewpoint on the whole "lists" issue, and how many lists are in fact running around.

1. Klugh/Ben's list: Jack, Kate, Sawyer and Hurley

This list has nothing to do with the whole "Good/Bad" thing and was a means of getting Jack to do the surgery on Ben, with Kate and Sawyer "as bait" if he didn't do it voluntarilly. With Hurley being the guy to go back and tell everyone to never go there.

2. Ethan/Goodwin's list:

This list was to be made by the two Other insurgents into the two sections of the plane. Ethan at The Fuselage, and Goodwin for the Tail Section. We saw in ATOTC that Ben told both of them to bring him lists in THREE days (meaning there was NO list for the survivors taken from the tail section the first night. This was either, as Goodwin says, the Others taking the "strong ones... the threats" or possibly, which I don't believe as of yet, another group of "Other Others").

We see Goodwin's list in TO48D (Ana takes it off the one she kills), and learn in ML that Ethan didn't make a list cause the Losties found out he wasn't on the plane before he could.

From all discussions about these lists, these lists were to include the list of "Good" people.

3. Jacob's list.

When I say Jacob's list, I don't think it has yet to be established that THIS list is in fact different to Goodwin and Ethan's lists. Because for all we know, when Ben told Ethan and Goodwin to bring him a list in three days, he may have been simply referring to this list. By that I mean - Any list of "Good" people, such as Goodwin's and Ethan's (if he made it), would later become apart of Jacob's list.... If that made sense???

If not, then this list is possibly a THIRD list that as others have said, is a list of "people capable of understanding" what the Others are doing, and thus capable of assimiliation into their culture/society.

If there is a 3rd list, what's the difference between Jacob's list of "people capable of understanding" and Goodwin/Ethan's list of "Good" people... Or are these in fact the same lists?

I just read this thread all at once, so this is gonna be hard to do, but some things that popped into my head while reading:

- When Mikhail says Sayid, Kate, and Locke aren't on the list because they're "weak, frightened and angry", I immediately thought of Juliet's off-island flashback. In NIP, she's shown as exactly those 3 things, yet she's still recruited to (we assume) go to the island, and seemingly holds a high position within the group. Sounds like The Others are not so selective when they have something on the line.

I forget the other ones I thought up, so I'll just edit later. :)

I just read this thread all at once, so this is gonna be hard to do, but some things that popped into my head while reading:

- When Mikhail says Sayid, Kate, and Locke aren't on the list because they're "weak, frightened and angry", I immediately thought of Juliet's off-island flashback. In NIP, she's shown as exactly those 3 things, yet she's still recruited to (we assume) go to the island, and seemingly holds a high position within the group. Sounds like The Others are not so selective when they have something on the line.

I forget the other ones I thought up, so I'll just edit later. :)Two sets of standards? One for recruits and a lower second standard for contract employee's needed by the Other's due to their special skills? That would explain Juliet, Jack and perhaps Mikhael. Also children are not so hardened in their thoughts and ways so they are openly accepted, sought after and then molded to pattern?

Mikhael did remind me of a novice in an organization trying to impress outsiders with what a big deal it is to belong. I think Sayid was right in saying the Others had their own fair share of character flaws. We had a good example in the redshirt Juliet killed plus the way Ethan broke down and Karl strayed from the path etc. Just plain folks with a set of delusions, not superior beings who understand more than we mere mortals.

It seems pretty obvious. The Others have been told by Jacob they are a superior breed of man, Nietzchean ubermensch, if you will. And they've bought into it. It's not true, but the Others are a cult and it's a lot easier to live on Craphole Island and push buttons and walk into sonic fences if you think you have a destiny and are a superman that to realize you're a self-deluded moron who is being used (for what purpose we don't yet know).


In my opinion, Jacob is ex-Dharma specializing in psychological manipulation, who broke off from Dharma, got himself a god-complex and built a little religion around himself out of the natives, other Dharmians that he couldconvert (like Tom) and then other people on the mainland he could bamboozle (like Mikhail).



I have a theory very similar to this one, but mine goes a little bit wilder: I believe Jacob was a Dharma Test
Subject for the Parapsycological Research Station. He was a very religious man with a gift, like Walt...
Then one day, 'the incident' took place. Something happened that messed up the natural electromagnetism on the
island and this affected Jacob's 'powers' deeply. He got angry at Dharma and became resentful. But soon He realized that
that he could do things that he couldn't do before, like 'mentally-hacking' into the Cerberus Security System'
developed
by Dharma. He had been greatly 'enhanced'. He started to developed a God-like complex. So he had an idea...
He started 'recruiting' the primitive indigenous people that inhabit the island even before Dharma showed up: The
Hostiles. He showed them his powers and wanted them to take part of his new religious. He taught them how to be
'good'. He became like a father for them, like a God. Then he took his plan to the next level: He had to get rid of Dharma.
That's how they all got killed. Jacob mentally took control of the Cerberus Security System becoming the Black
Cloud we all know as Smokie. Of Course, some of the original Dharma people's lifes were spared. Jacob found out that some of them could still be changed and converted to his exclusive religion. A religion that would survive the apocalypse predicted by the Valenzetti Equation.
So they all started to impersonate Dharma. For Hanso Headquarters, Dharma was still operative. That way they could still get food drops if required, etc...

Jacob, as the Black Cloud, is how the list gets made. After all, we know what it did to Ecko...

But after some time, they found out something terrible... These hostiles, for some reason, couldn't have children anymore. And Jacob knew that, if he wanted
to expand his small community of 'better people', he needed to get them fixed. So he sent some people to the outside world in search of a cure for their
infertility. That's how they found Juliet.

If only those "not flawed" are on the list, why did they try to take Eko?
I believe it was in a scene with Ben conning/talking to Locke, that Locke asked the questions about the kidnappings. Ben said something like (as he was pretending to be not Ben) maybe those people are taking them to save them. Maybe they tried to take the more physically threatening ones first because they were a threat.
100%
We are not capable of understanding this stupid show.....
BECAUSE WE ARE NOT THE WRITERS WITH ALL THE ANSWERS TO THE MYSTERIES OF THE ISLAND!
If it is so stupid, why are you here? I will not stand silent and read such rudeness about the greatest show ever written and watched on TV, better than any movie, book, etc. Be GONE with you.