A lot of you seem to have forgotten that the Barracks and the Sonic fence secruity system was originally built and operated by the Dharma Initiative, as the Dharma map, found at the Dharma communication center, indicated, not the Others/Hostiles. Ben and company have only been occupying it since the Dharma Initiave was on the loosing end of their Purge with the Hostiles.

The hole split between Dharma and the Hostiles is getting very hard to keep seperated. Mikhail was brought to the island on a Dharma sub, which used the Dharma Sonar for navigation, after being recruited when he was 24 by anwering a Dharma classifed in the late 80's early 90's about saving the world, just like Calvin. Yet in last weeks episode, he admitted that the only lie he was telling in his origin story was that he was a member of the Dharma Initiative.

When you plot it out logically it doesn't make sense. How could he not have been a member of Dharma if Dharma devices were used to transport him to the island pre-Purge? I guess Danielles warning that Mikhail was lying was just as true as when she said it about "Henry Gale" when he was caught in her net proclaiming not to be an "Other".

He said after the purge he was moved to the flame. It doesn't mean that the hostiles didn't have the sub before the purge. You know that they are like. They like to steal boats and subs and people.

This entirely depends on who or what the others/hostiles really are/where.

Where they island natives who lived in straw huts in the bushes till Dharma came along?
Ben claims he grew up on the island he certainly doesnt fit the type.


-Exodus

Where they island natives who lived in straw huts in the bushes till Dharma came along?
Ben claims he grew up on the island he certainly doesnt fit the type.
-Exodus

According to the training films, Dharma set up on the island in the early 70's. Did Dharma members bring their children with them? Ben didn't say he was born on the island, just that he has spent his life there. He could have been born in 1970, moved to the Island in 1973 with his Dharma parents and he would be in his mid 30's right now. Tom talks about the Dharma polar bear experiments like he was there when they took place...also as a child? Supposedly the "Hostiles" were on the island long before Dharma, but neither Ben nor Mikhail have eluded to themselves as the "hostiles".
100%
He said after the purge he was moved to the flame. It doesn't mean that the hostiles didn't have the sub before the purge. You know that they are like. They like to steal boats and subs and people.

If Dharma was controlling the sonar beacon before the purge, why would they leave it active if the hostiles had stolen the sub? If someone was in control of my submarine I would cripple the nav system to render it useless.

He could have been born in 1970, moved to the Island in 1973 with his Dharma parents and he would be in his mid 30's right now.

Ben is in his mid fifties, why use a 53 year old actor to portray a man in his thirties...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Emerson


-Exodus

Patchy could have been lying the "purge" could also have been Dharma workers joining the hostiles and cutting off the Dharma Initiative from the island

Speaking of the fence, anyone else surprised at the level of severeness of the Others security system?

Using a sonic pitch to induce a haemorrhage, just what the hell were they afraid of?

A lot of you seem to have forgotten that the Barracks and the Sonic fence secruity system was originally built and operated by the Dharma Initiative, as the Dharma map, found at the Dharma communication center, indicated, not the Others/Hostiles. Ben and company have only been occupying it since the Dharma Initiave was on the loosing end of their Purge with the Hostiles.

The hole split between Dharma and the Hostiles is getting very hard to keep seperated. Mikhail was brought to the island on a Dharma sub, which used the Dharma Sonar for navigation, after being recruited when he was 24 by anwering a Dharma classifed in the late 80's early 90's about saving the world, just like Calvin. Yet in last weeks episode, he admitted that the only lie he was telling in his origin story was that he was a member of the Dharma Initiative.

When you plot it out logically it doesn't make sense. How could he not have been a member of Dharma if Dharma devices were used to transport him to the island pre-Purge? I guess Danielles warning that Mikhail was lying was just as true as when she said it about "Henry Gale" when he was caught in her net proclaiming not to be an "Other".

I thought it was pretty clear that many of 'The Others' are ex-Dharma. It was explicitly referenced in an earlier episode when Juliet told Jack something along the lines of 'It doesn't matter what we once were' when he asked her if she was with Dharma. Seems that their loyalty now lies with this wierd 'Cult of Jacob' thing that seems to be the philosophy of the Others.

A lot of you seem to have forgotten that the Barracks and the Sonic fence secruity system was originally built and operated by the Dharma Initiative, as the Dharma map, found at the Dharma communication center, indicated, not the Others/Hostiles. Ben and company have only been occupying it since the Dharma Initiave was on the loosing end of their Purge with the Hostiles.

The hole split between Dharma and the Hostiles is getting very hard to keep seperated. Mikhail was brought to the island on a Dharma sub, which used the Dharma Sonar for navigation, after being recruited when he was 24 by anwering a Dharma classifed in the late 80's early 90's about saving the world, just like Calvin. Yet in last weeks episode, he admitted that the only lie he was telling in his origin story was that he was a member of the Dharma Initiative.

When you plot it out logically it doesn't make sense. How could he not have been a member of Dharma if Dharma devices were used to transport him to the island pre-Purge? I guess Danielles warning that Mikhail was lying was just as true as when she said it about "Henry Gale" when he was caught in her net proclaiming not to be an "Other".


I am thinking like you are. We've seen that The Others do a lot of lying and occasionally
sprinkle their lies with the truth. However, more often than not they are lying. Danielle
knows this. Therefore, I think almost everything Mikhail said was a lie and the one
thing he said was a lie was probably the truth. He was a member of the Dharma
Initiative.

I think Mikail is either an ex-dharma turned Other or he "borrowed" the background story from the real Dharma guy, just like Ben "borrowed" the real Henry Gale's background story. And maybe Danielle has "borrowed" someone's story, as well, but I hope not!

Ben is in his mid fifties, why use a 53 year old actor to portray a man in his thirties...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Emerson

-Exodus

You got me there...I would never have pegged him for being in his 50's. On a side note, Emerson was on a local radio show last year and he said he was orginally contracted for one episode, apparently his role increased because he became a fan favorite, not because the writers knew a head of time how his character would evolve...
100%
Speaking of the fence, anyone else surprised at the level of severeness of the Others security system?

Using a sonic pitch to induce a haemorrhage, just what the hell were they afraid of?

Could this be the Cerberus security system mentioned on hatch door map? Probably not because of the distances involved.
100%
I thought it was pretty clear that many of 'The Others' are ex-Dharma. .

That was never made "clear" to me...in fact the writers seem to go to great lengths to make nothing absolutely "clear" so that they aren't pigeon holed when writing new episodes.
100%
Therefore, I think almost everything Mikhail said was a lie and the one
thing he said was a lie was probably the truth. He was a member of the Dharma
Initiative.

That's the only thing that makes sense from his story. But then when you think about it, why bother to lie at all? Why would that make any difference at all to the Losties?

Ben is in his mid fifties, why use a 53 year old actor to portray a man in his thirties...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Emerson


-Exodus

Why use a 28 year old man to play a 17 yr high school / karate student in Karate Kid, or a 30 something year old girl to play a 17 year old brainy Andrea on BH90210?
Actor act, their age in RL does not relate to the age of their characters.

I think Mikail is either an ex-dharma turned Other or he "borrowed" the background story from the real Dharma guy, just like Ben "borrowed" the real Henry Gale's background story. And maybe Danielle has "borrowed" someone's story, as well, but I hope not!

You could very well be correct...that's the problem. If everyone turns out to be lying, how are we as viewers suppose to take what any character says at face value? That goes back to my original post that the whole Dharma/Others backstory is in danger of loosing any legs to stand on.

I thought it was pretty clear that many of 'The Others' are ex-Dharma. It was explicitly referenced in an earlier episode when Juliet told Jack something along the lines of 'It doesn't matter what we once were' when he asked her if she was with Dharma. Seems that their loyalty now lies with this wierd 'Cult of Jacob' thing that seems to be the philosophy of the Others.

Juliet doesn't explicitly say anything like that. She says "That was a long time ago" or something of that nature. Her response to Jack was very ambiguous.

I personally don't think any of the 'hostiles' were/are Dharma people.

I think Mikhail meant that everything he told Sayid and Kate was true, but that he wasn't the Dharma person he was pretending to be - but the story he was telling (that of the Dharma employee) was true, but not necessarily how he personally came to the island.

I think Mikhail came to the island on the sub, but not as a Dharma employee. He came to the island as a hire for the 'hostiles'. He came in a sub. The Dharma sub, which had since been taken over by the hostiles. It would seem pretty evident that the only truly reliable (and safe) way of getting onto the island is via submarine, so that must be how Mikhail arrived. He was never Dharma (IMO). He may have even arrived after the purge.

I just see it as this - Mikhail was given this 'cover story' of being a Dharma employee, perhaps even the last one who was actually holed up in The Flame station, just as Mikhail was pretending to be, but who was eventually killed or died. Mikhail then assumed his identity. So everything Mikhail said was 'true', but it just wasn't true of Mikhail.

So I believe that yes, Dharma put up the Sonic Fence, to protect themselves from The Hostiles. The Hostiles eventually won out, and took over the barracks, The Flame station, the Staff station, etc. (Except the swan station, obviously - unless Radzinski was also a hostile pretending to be Dharma). Mikhail was posted at the Flame, and stayed there until communications went down, and then Mrs. Klugh showed up to 'clue' him in and let him know he should be expecting visitors. Then Sayid and everyone showed up. Mikhail spits out his 'I'm a Dharma employee' routine, sees they're not buying it, and just comes clean.

Makes sense to me, anyway.

Why use a 28 year old man to play a 17 yr high school / karate student in Karate Kid, or a 30 something year old girl to play a 17 year old brainy Andrea on BH90210?
Actor act, their age in RL does not relate to the age of their characters.I for one think Ben looks his real mid fifties age so it does matter sometimes even though other actors play younger or older characters all the time. Those make up artists gotta earn a living too.

I agree that Dharma built the fence and that the Others are apparently just using Dharma property (Note: the Lostees are also using Dharma property so that proves nothing). However I feel it has been indicated that at least a portion of them are former Dharma and they may possibly still be Dharma.

I think Mikhail meant that everything he told Sayid and Kate was true, but that he wasn't the Dharma person he was pretending to be - but the story he was telling (that of the Dharma employee) was true, but not necessarily how he personally came to the island.


Glad I'm not the only one from the "Didn't love it" threads that is still mildly intrigued by the storyline :biggrin:

Don't laugh, but another angle that actully makes sense to Mikhail's story was that he was recruited and brought to the island by Dharma, but was actually a spy for whomever the "hostiles" turn out to be and was crucial to the downfall of Dharma during the "Purge". He would therefore not see himself truly as a member of the Dharma Initiative (the lie), but was in essence working among them and trusted, doing exactly as he said.

Sadly, with his convenient death, I have a feeling his story will not be resolved in a satisfactory conclusion.

Speaking of the fence, anyone else surprised at the level of severeness of the Others security system?

Using a sonic pitch to induce a haemorrhage, just what the hell were they afraid of?
Polar bears?
100%

I just see it as this - Mikhail was given this 'cover story' of being a Dharma employee, perhaps even the last one who was actually holed up in The Flame station, just as Mikhail was pretending to be, but who was eventually killed or died. Mikhail then assumed his identity. So everything Mikhail said was 'true', but it just wasn't true of Mikhail.

Good analysis. I think you are right.

You could very well be correct...that's the problem. If everyone turns out to be lying, how are we as viewers suppose to take what any character says at face value? That goes back to my original post that the whole Dharma/Others backstory is in danger of loosing any legs to stand on.

Yes, I agree, if there are too many lies it undermines the whole story. But I don't think there are that many characters telling lies at critical points in the story, which probably puts me in the minority around here. ;)

I think a lot of fans mistake lies of omission as lies of deceit with intent to cause harm or actions against one's will. For instance, Locke not telling anyone he was paralyzed prior to the crash is a lie of omission. It's his business and no one else's. There's no evidence that not revealing his former physical state has caused anyone any harm. OTOH, Ben's lies were told to infiltrate the Losties camp in order to get Jack to operate on him. Since it didn't work, we don't know for certain how he would have got him back to the Other's camp, but we do know the Others eventually captured him and held him against his will until he did what Ben wanted.

I feel Mikail told his tale to likewise manipulate Sayid, Kate & Locke into trusting him until reinforcements came, when they would have become prisoners of the Others and possibly mistreated and harmed just as Sawyer and Kate were on the other island.

Ok, trash the heck out of this, if you will. :biggrin: