I don't know how much I am supposed to say since it hasn't aired in the US, so spoiler font this if it's in appropriate.


But while tonight's ep certainly had a shocking ending, you can't help but wonder if the entire series is going to have 'magical box' explaination. A convenient 'higher power' presence that can explain all the little questions.


Does this leave anyone else feeling a little unsatisfied?

absolutely! but I think there's more to this box. In fact I doubt that the box is the main focus of the island (otherwise why would Ben divulge that information so easily?)

Lost has definitely opened up a new can of worms, we'll just have to wait and see what develops.

i think if it was just the magical box...then yes it would be very disatisfying. however...if it turns out that its something like pandora's box...open it and disaster befalls (something bad happens every time you use it). then maybe it wont be so disatisfying. right now..i think its too early to tell.

I think I'm one of the few people that isn't crazy about the mythological aspect of the show. Every time they introduce a new phanomenon like the smoke monster it makes me think about how hard it will be to explain. I can't see the show getting around some sort of "higher power" explanation which I think may be dissatisfying. I hope they find a way to explain the show in a very impressive way. I'm just going to enjoy the show now and if the ending doesn't turn out to be amazing I will still have enjoyed the show up to that point. :)

The point is, even if it is a 'pandora's box' or that the box is a euphamism for some other magical source of energy/power...That would explain just about every question we've had about this show, but only attributed to the 'special' properties of the island. It's unique magnetic flux or position in a timeline or whatever. To me that's very much a 'ghost in the machine' type of explanation to everything.


While I don't know why I would expect anything different, I can't help but be a little disappointed.

Weirdly enough, I would be happier to find out Ben was scamming Locke and Cooper was kidnapped and brought to this island over the last 80-odd days after finding out more about our Losties.


Regardless, this is the first ep of the season I was 100% spoiler free for and I was quite surprised at the twist ending.

At this point we don't know if Ben is still manipulating Locke in some way. It's entirely possible that Ben got his outside connections to kidnap Locke's dad and hold him at the island. If Ben wants to keep Locke's attention he will definitely tell him there's a mystical island box and other mysteries to discover, because that is what Locke wants to hear.

I doubt this box can be used to explain everything, otherwise there would no longer be any mysteries on the island for the next season.

Weirdly enough, I would be happier to find out Ben was scamming Locke and Cooper was kidnapped and brought to this island over the last 80-odd days after finding out more about our Losties..
I think this is exactly what happened. I think the box is something fictional Ben made up to screw with Locke's mind. It's so reminiscent of Locke's discussion of pandora's box and hope with Hurley. Ben DOES know Locke, and he is totally screwing with him.

The point is, even if it is a 'pandora's box' or that the box is a euphamism for some other magical source of energy/power...That would explain just about every question we've had about this show, but only attributed to the 'special' properties of the island. It's unique magnetic flux or position in a timeline or whatever. To me that's very much a 'ghost in the machine' type of explanation to everything.


While I don't know why I would expect anything different, I can't help but be a little disappointed.

Weirdly enough, I would be happier to find out Ben was scamming Locke and Cooper was kidnapped and brought to this island over the last 80-odd days after finding out more about our Losties.

Regardless, this is the first ep of the season I was 100% spoiler free for and I was quite surprised at the twist ending.

I'm pretty sure that the box is metaphorical. And by pretty sure, I mean certain. Do you really think that Locke will, in some episode upcoming, be led to a giant cardboard box that will hold his every fantasy. Unlikely. In agreement, I think that his dad was just recently brought to the island.

I Do you really think that Locke will, in some episode upcoming, be led to a giant cardboard box that will hold his every fantasy. Unlikely. In agreement, I think that his dad was just recently brought to the island.



I don't really think that. I also never thought Ben would ever claim many of the great things this island can provide come from a 'magic box'

all i'm saying is if it's a set up/con, then cool, I'm all for it. But even if it's a metaphor for 'magical island that always gives us what we wish for', then this plot point has lost me. As I"M sure it will for everyone expecting Ben is BS'ing right now.

When he said the thing about you getting whatever you wanted / imagined from the box, it reminded me of when he was talking about his tumor and said "and a spinal surgeon fell from the sky" . Maybe Ben asked the box for a back surgeon.

I just keep clinging to the point Carlton and Damon made that people on the board keep bringing up, that there's nothing supernatural going on here, everything will have a rational scientific explanation....

I don't know how much I am supposed to say since it hasn't aired in the US, so spoiler font this if it's in appropriate.


But while tonight's ep certainly had a shocking ending, you can't help but wonder if the entire series is going to have 'magical box' explaination. A convenient 'higher power' presence that can explain all the little questions.


Does this leave anyone else feeling a little unsatisfied?

Can anything really be considered a Deus ex machina on a show like LOST?

I just keep clinging to the point Carlton and Damon made that people on the board keep bringing up, that there's nothing supernatural going on here, everything will have a rational scientific explanation....

Ehm sorry, Carlton and Damon never said that.
What is pseudoscience? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoscience)


At one point Lost will have to break through the wall in my opinion.
If not they will leave too many things behind, Hurleys numbers, Lockes dreams, the monster...

The writers seem intent on keeping Lost as realistic as possible for as long as they can, and i don't blame them. Lost will be a different show once the answers starts to come, but im starting to feel that they are up to the challenge.

Making a serious drama with fantastical elements, its not easy, but this is Lost.


-Exodus

Ehm sorry, Carlton and Damon never said that.
What is pseudoscience? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudoscience)

At one point Lost will have to break through the wall in my opinion.
If not they will leave too many things behind, Hurleys numbers, Lockes dreams, the monster...

The writers seem intent on keeping Lost as realistic as possible for as long as they can, and i don't blame them. Lost will be a different show once the answers starts to come, but im starting to feel that they are up to the challenge.

Making a serious drama with fantastical elements, its not easy, but this is Lost.


-Exodus


-Exodus

You're right, I guess I keep reading other people write this idea but I never looked into it myself. Closest quote I could find is in the What They Said thread: http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=52552

"This is not a show about the supernatural, despite the fact that we have a very huge creature that likes to eat people. Despite the surreal, bizarre aspects of the island, there will be an explanation for it. It may not come for a very long time, but certain information about the island will explain how things are possible. We’ll try to root it in real science or real pseudo-science. There will be no mystical reason or an island of monsters."- David Fury

I'm not sure what the date of that quote was so thier perspective or focus might have changed a little. I agree we're likely heading into "real pseudo-science" territory, and I also agree that TPTB will keep things reasonably grounded.

Can anything really be considered a Deus ex machina on a show like LOST?



actually, yes. everything that is typically considered Deus ex machina in regular storytelling would more than apply here.


you introduce all these surreal mysteries then explain it by saying there is a omiscient higher power, or magical box. it's the same as saying it was all a dream or in Hurley's head. Doesn't get any more 'Deus ex machina' than that.
100%
didn't fury leave the show shortly after that quote???

A real magic box explanation for events on the show would leave me laughing as I picked up the remote so I could surf away from the island.

I vote metaphorical magic box unless the box contains Ginger & Mary Ann?

This really is the question-of-questions. How will they pull it all togother at the end? I am about as exeteme an example of a TPTB-worshipper that there is; I really think they are some of the best writers-for-television ever. But, even so, I can't help but feel that at the end of the show, they will have to resort to a "deus ex machina", at least for some of the mysteries. It just seems like there are too many loose ends, all over the place, to be resolved neatly.

I hope that they can prove me wrong.

As far as "the box" is concerned, I'm not too worried. At this point we don't even know if it was a metaphor for some incredible power, or just a way for Ben to say "John, guess what? We've got your dad gagged and tied up in a closet.".

I think a lot of fans felt the same way after FBYE; somehow Desmond's time-travel would ruin the rest of the show. Maybe time travel and magical boxes would ruin other shows, but I think we can have a reasonable amount of faith in TPTB's ability to execute far-flung concepts such as these in a tasteful manner. After all, Desmond's time trave certainly hasn't ruined the show yet, not when the last ep was a masterpiece like MTF!

I'm leaning towards yet another Ben scam job. Heck, Cooper could be in on it...and is only "appearing" terrified at the end of the eppy as he is strapped down and gagged in his chair.

I think the word "magic box" scared a lot of us when we heard it...but knowing that the Dharma dudes were up to some pretty forward thinking scientific experiments....
possibly aided by the island's magnetic anomolies...the box will likely be explained by science...and NOT hocus pocus.

However...Kate did see her horse...and Sayid saw Nadia the cat...not to mention Jack saw his dad...and Locke his birth mom (although those could be viewed as hallucinations).

Perhaps the Losties flashbacks have a way of triggering this mystical (for the moment) phenomenon...as they are projecting their past experiences and encounters through this "magic box"...which is why Mr. Cooper showed up at the end of TMFT.

So...Do the Lostie flashbacks every episode have more of an important role in the show other than just giving us the character's backstories? Or is that getting too sci-fi/supernatural?

Remember what Ben said to Sawyer...They (the others) are much better at conning people than Sawyer is... It is all a con. They give Locke what he needs based on their research, the kidnap Cooper.. Ben had to give Juliet and Jack what they needed to get his surgery done, but he did not want to do it. Ben is playing all of them around him, he only cares about Alex. I believe he truely cares about her. and whatever happened to Penny?

This really is the question-of-questions. How will they pull it all togother at the end? I am about as exeteme an example of a TPTB-worshipper that there is; I really think they are some of the best writers-for-television ever. But, even so, I can't help but feel that at the end of the show, they will have to resort to a "deus ex machina", at least for some of the mysteries. It just seems like there are too many loose ends, all over the place, to be resolved neatly.

I hope that they can prove me wrong.

As far as "the box" is concerned, I'm not too worried. At this point we don't even know if it was a metaphor for some incredible power, or just a way for Ben to say "John, guess what? We've got your dad gagged and tied up in a closet.".

I think a lot of fans felt the same way after FBYE; somehow Desmond's time-travel would ruin the rest of the show. Maybe time travel and magical boxes would ruin other shows, but I think we can have a reasonable amount of faith in TPTB's ability to execute far-flung concepts such as these in a tasteful manner. After all, Desmond's time trave certainly hasn't ruined the show yet, not when the last ep was a masterpiece like MTF!


Great post! and your faith reminds me of me about a season ago. Personally (and I know I'm alone on this) the few issues that creators have resolved in the shows 2.5 seasons have left me sort of dissatisfied. That is to say they have excelled in the set up and failed miserably in the punchline. The notable exceptions for me was what was in the hatch and what the computer did. I did LOVE those answers.

However things such as what kate did, how jack got his tattoo, how locke got into his wheelchair felt flat after 2+ years of waiting for answers.

From a business standpoint, answers don't have to be great, because they will come at the end, after all the money has been made from the series. And a bad final revelations will not really affect syndication and dvd revenue streams anyway.

Add to this, the continual increase of stories that seem IMPOSSIBLE to resolve without Deus Ex Machina intervention AND the fact that to me, if it is a metaphor for 'incredible power' that would be the same thing, and I wonder if I'll be feeling at the same way I did when x-files ended. After season 1 I said no way no how. After season 2 I started considering the possibility. Right now, I'm pretty much expecting it.
100%

So...Do the Lostie flashbacks every episode have more of an important role in the show other than just giving us the character's backstories? Or is that getting too sci-fi/supernatural?



I vote for the latter. And I dont' think that is too scifi/supernatural.

I think the word "magic box" scared a lot of us when we heard it...but knowing that the Dharma dudes were up to some pretty forward thinking scientific experiments....
possibly aided by the island's magnetic anomolies...the box will likely be explained by science...and NOT hocus pocus.

NOW im curious, what exactly could u imagine explains this with RL science?


Deus ex Machina is being thrown around too much, it basically means the the story resolves itself without influence of any of the protagonists, that is NOT the case here.

If Lost resolves itself with NO supernatural element i will be disappointed, because it means they will leave too many things unanswered.
Hurleys numbers, the monster, Desmonds time travel, Lockes dreams etc.
Doesnt mean there is not a REASON for it, introduction of a fantastical element does not necessarily mean u need a Deus ex Machina to resolve the plot.

-Exodus

If Lost resolves itself with NO supernatural element i will be disappointed, because it means they will leave too many things unanswered.
Hurleys numbers, the monster, Desmonds time travel, Lockes dreams etc.
Doesnt mean there is not a REASON for it, introduction of a fantastical element does not necessarily mean u need a Deus ex Machina to resolve the plot.

-Exodus

I guess it depends on one's definition of 'supernatural element'. I personally don't consider time travel to NECESSARILY be supernatural. You can have a pseudoscientific reasoning that can explain things like timeloops. Back to the Future played with the time concept but I wouldn't call it 'supernatural' You can then extend that to explain things like Hurley's lottery numbers (this is the timeloop where he actually hit them). The Monster can still be a scientific creation not unlike Crichton's book 'prey'.

to me, any deviation from science or pseudoscience (more accurately, theorhetical science) would be 'supernatural' and by definition would be very deus ex machina.

From wikipedia: The phrase has been extended to refer to any resolution to a story which does not pay due regard to the story's internal logic and is so unlikely that it challenges suspension of disbelief (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspension_of_disbelief),

So if the story is trying to pretend it is taking place in the real world (ie the sox winning the series and other allusions to this world) and no magical element has been confirmed to occur to date, than any magic used solely at the end to explain some seemingly unanswerable questions would be a huge disappointment to me as it would be a deviattion from the story's internal logic and would require a much larger suspension of disbelief than has been asked of us, to date.

I think the "magic box" is metaphorical, and I don't think that the island can make things (or people) magically appear. There must be a story about how Cooper got to the Island. It may be that the island has the power to influence people or events in the outside world, but to those people the influence would be invisible and the events would appear to have been driven by personal choice.

By the way, Locke already knew about the power of the Island. Remember in Season One when he told Charlie that the island would give him his guitar if he wanted it badly enough, and then Charlie looked up and it was up in the trees?

I think the "magic box" is metaphorical, and I don't think that the island can make things (or people) magically appear. There must be a story about how Cooper got to the Island. It may be that the island has the power to influence people or events in the outside world, but to those people the influence would be invisible and the events would appear to have been driven by personal choice.

But again isn't that Deus Ex Machina storytelling? My question is what is it a metaphor for? What metaphor that isn't 'magic' and not rooted in any kind of theoretical science can account for the phenomena we are seeing such as Cooper on the island, or the Kate's horse, the Nadia cat, the healing abilities.

I would just be very upset to find out Locke can walk cuz the island has healing properties because it's 'special'. Without any attempt at a theoretical, plausible scientific logic behind it. Maybe that's just me though.

To me, I love the idea of this show being a riddle. Any resolution to the riddle alluding to 'just because it can' (which in essence is magic) is just cheating IMO. The same way Dues Ex Machina is cheating.

By the way, Locke already knew about the power of the Island. Remember in Season One when he told Charlie that the island would give him his guitar if he wanted it badly enough, and then Charlie looked up and it was up in the trees?



well he saw the guitar there when he said that to Charlie. Again I love the idea of the show introducing something that seems magical but then has a rooted, logical reason. The viewer can then choose if he wants to believe the science behind it explained the faith/magic or the faith/magic created the science. So far the show has presented a complete balance. I hope it does at the end.

Again I love the idea of the show introducing something that seems magical but then has a rooted, logical reason. The viewer can then choose if he wants to believe the science behind it explained the faith/magic or the faith/magic created the science. So far the show has presented a complete balance. I hope it does at the end.


If it is done correctly, there will always be a debate about whether Cooper's appearance on the island is coincidence - the result of a series of events - or whether it was somehow controlled by the island. Much like Yemi's plane - or "Nadia" the cat - is it really the same cat from Sayid's flashback, or just one that looks like it?

I think the healing abilities are the result of the magnetic anomoly. I think Kate's horse, Jack's father, etc. are manifestations of the smoke monster. Cooper is different though. He is really there.

If it is done correctly, there will always be a debate about whether Cooper's appearance on the island is coincidence - the result of a series of events - or whether it was somehow controlled by the island. Much like Yemi's plane - or "Nadia" the cat - is it really the same cat from Sayid's flashback, or just one that looks like it?

I think the healing abilities are the result of the magnetic anomoly. I think Kate's horse, Jack's father, etc. are manifestations of the smoke monster. Cooper is different though. He is really there.


agree and hope you are right on everything you said. Especially the 'If it's done correctly' part. To me, LOST has screwed up so much this season that I'm losing faith!

My question to you is, what if Cooper was brought to the island because it was wished so by Ben or Locke or Sawyer and this magic magnetic box on the island produced him. At that point would you agree the show has been nothing but a joke and the resolutions were made up after they were backed into a corner and had no way out? Would you concede that they were, in effect cheating?


If so, we are in agreement. But if they continue the explanations through duality, and plausible duality, I'm on board!

I guess it depends on one's definition of 'supernatural element'. I personally don't consider time travel to NECESSARILY be supernatural. You can have a pseudoscientific reasoning that can explain things like timeloops. Back to the Future played with the time concept but I wouldn't call it 'supernatural' You can then extend that to explain things like Hurley's lottery numbers (this is the timeloop where he actually hit them). The Monster can still be a scientific creation not unlike Crichton's book 'prey'.

to me, any deviation from science or pseudoscience (more accurately, theorhetical science) would be 'supernatural' and by definition would be very deus ex machina.

From wikipedia: The phrase has been extended to refer to any resolution to a story which does not pay due regard to the story's internal logic and is so unlikely that it challenges suspension of disbelief (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suspension_of_disbelief),

So if the story is trying to pretend it is taking place in the real world (ie the sox winning the series and other allusions to this world) and no magical element has been confirmed to occur to date, than any magic used solely at the end to explain some seemingly unanswerable questions would be a huge disappointment to me as it would be a deviation from the story's internal logic and would require a much larger suspension of disbelief than has been asked of us, to date.


Well i agree, pseudoscience is where this show is going.
Time-travel alone does not cover half of what is going on on this island, but i believe this box is an important part of "the answer".

But even if there is a box that can make anything u wish for, it still doesn't automatically mean a deus ex machina.
Quoting from the same page u did:
"Deus ex machina is a Latin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin) phrase that is used to describe an unexpected, artificial, or improbable character, device, or event introduced suddenly in a work of fiction or drama to resolve a situation or untangle a plot (e.g., having the protagonist wake up and realize it was all a dream (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dream), or an angel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angel) suddenly appearing to solve problems)."

I don't think any plots will be resolved so easily, but i still believe this box is something we cannot explain with RL science.

I strongly doubt TPTB would introduce this concept just to take it away as something Ben made up at the top of his head.


-Exodus

My question to you is, what if Cooper was brought to the island because it was wished so by Ben or Locke or Sawyer and this magic magnetic box on the island produced him. At that point would you agree the show has been nothing but a joke and the resolutions were made up after they were backed into a corner and had no way out? Would you concede that they were, in effect cheating?


If so, we are in agreement. But if they continue the explanations through duality, and plausible duality, I'm on board!

Yes, if Cooper was magically transported, like Star Trek, from some other location I would say this show has jumped the shark.

Quoting from the same page u did:
"Deus ex machina is a Latin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin) phrase that is used to describe an unexpected, artificial, or improbable character, device, or event introduced suddenly in a work of fiction or drama to resolve a situation or untangle a plot

I dont' know. To me, a magic box that can do unrealistic things is very much an unexpected, artificial and improbably device. It's introductiion seems sudden and would serve to resolve a situation or untangle a plot

In my view, it fits the definition to a tee.

At this point we don't know if Ben is still manipulating Locke in some way. It's entirely possible that Ben got his outside connections to kidnap Locke's dad and hold him at the island. If Ben wants to keep Locke's attention he will definitely tell him there's a mystical island box and other mysteries to discover, because that is what Locke wants to hear.

I doubt this box can be used to explain everything, otherwise there would no longer be any mysteries on the island for the next season.

Bingo!

Remember that Locke's father also has a link to Sawyer too, Ben can get all kinds of mileage out of bringing him to the island.

If it is done correctly, there will always be a debate about whether Cooper's appearance on the island is coincidence - the result of a series of events - or whether it was somehow controlled by the island.I think we'll have similar questions once Sayid's Nadia (the actual woman) shows up. She's another loose end story element, like the real Sawyer, which would otherwise remain unresolved.
100%
I guess it depends on one's definition of 'supernatural element'. I personally don't consider time travel to NECESSARILY be supernatural. You can have a pseudoscientific reasoning that can explain things like timeloops. I think Lost's time travel story crossed into the supernatural the moment they gave a random character (the Ring Lady) metaconsciousness in order explain a show concept ("The Universe will hunt you down and kill you if you subvert its will!") to the main character.

Assuming the whole thing wasn't just in Desmond's head, that is.

I watch Lost and follow the various discussions on the Fuselage with great participation. But I'm also very careful as regards to what the Lost writers are actually showing me. Because they're good creators of assumptions and they like to play with them. They build a system of clues in an often misleading way. It's like a chase between a very sly, resourceful criminal, who leaves confusing traces behind, and the audience is a sort of Sherlock Holmes who has to gather clues and try to formulate theories to keep up with the criminal's pace, in order to try to lose the disadvantage, the "step behind".

The problem is really putting the pieces together without assuming too much and taking some assumptions for granted. Example: Smokey. What do we actually know about it? Not much. It's been shown a few times, each time practically doing something different. When Eko meets Smokey, some images can be seen through it. Because of this, we think that the apparition of Christian Shepard has to be related with Smokey. Then, we assume that with Kate and the horse is the same mechanism. Same goes with Sayid and the cat. Then, a step further, we assume that every apparition on the island has to be related with Smokey. And now there are people who believe that the Anthony Cooper we saw being kept by Ben has to be Smokey-related as well.

But it may be just a deception. It may be what the writers want the audience to think. They display the clues in a certain way, and we're trapped into false assumptions. Taking a closer look to the various "apparitions" and putting Smokey aside for a moment, we'll see that they're not so tightly related or similar. Jack might have had a genuine hallucination, induced by the stress caused by the trauma after the crash and his unresolved relationship with his dad. Kate's horse was seen by Sawyer as well: it may not be an hallucination. We saw animals near the Flame station. What if that was a real horse? But since we saw a black horse in Kate's flashback, we deduce that the horse on the island has to be a projection, an image, not real. And Dave, Hurley's (imaginary?) friend? Another kind of apparition: here only Hurley can see it, but it's not like Jack's father, because Dave interacts with Hurley. And Hurley's flashback send us a message: it's very likely that Dave never existed in the first place. And Cooper? Personally, I think it's more likely that (by coincidence or fate) he's really there, rather than being some strange (and less believable) projection or hologram. He's there, scared and beaten up. He gives Locke a what-the-f*ck-I-thought-I-killed-you look. He's been brought there by Ben's order. When Ben asks RIchard to bring the man from Tallahassee, the phrasing and tone is really similar to "bring the prisoner, I want to speak with him". I don't really see how Smokey could be involved.

If you're still following me, I swear I'm coming to the point.

The point is the box. Ben's speech is forked and misleading at the very least. The writers, through Ben, drops crumbles of clues, a certain imagery, a certain chain of events and voilà, we the audience make the giant leap and start theorising. Personally, I thnk that Ben's speech was just a fascinating introduction for what was about to follow. It's a trick à la David Copperfield. The others have captured this man, maybe they knew it was Locke's father, maybe they discovered it later, it doesn't matter. Ben thinks that something might happen if he puts Cooper and Locke in the same room. Ben could have said to Locke: gee, you won't believe what this giant magnet of coincidence that's this island just did! We got here a person you might know. It's like a magician telling you that the has the right cards up his sleeve. Where's the illusion? Where's the atmosphere? So Ben knows exactly which buttons has to press with Locke and conjures up a grandiose, mystical introduction to fascinate Locke. It's theatre, it's because Ben knows that Locke is a good pawn... no, the best pawn Ben could ever imagine for whatever g*ddamned plan he's scheming. So Ben creates the mystic, magical box and fools everybody.

And if Ben is telling the truth, the box might be a force, a mysterious place where strange things happen, a magnetic anomaly that makes the water run uphill, an oracle who instead of giving answer with speech, gives answer by creating coincidences or by course-correcting fate... whatever, but not a box. I bet that if Locke had never worked in a box company, Ben would've used an entirely different imagery.

So, no, I do not think that there's going to be a deus ex machina in Lost. Sure, there are a lot of unanswered questions that would be easy, stupidly easy to answer thanks to a deus ex machina like magic, or by simply leaving them unanswered. I think that it's simply a matter of pieces missing. What the Dharma Initiative is and did, who the Others are, what happened on that island before the crash of Flight 815, etc., all of these things can be explained by a flashback or two. And perhaps the answer will leave a lot of people disappointed, but not because it'll be a deus-ex-machina explanation, simply because it's likely to be a lot simpler than many theories. I think it's going to be a revelation like: "see? We led you to believe this, but if you put the pieces together this other way... the picture is completely different". Of course the most important pieces of the puzzle will be revealed during the explanation. It's cheating, in a way, but I for one will be very glad to have played the game anyway.


Sorry for the length, and thank you for reading and surviving my rambling!
Rick

Rick: I couldn't agree with you more, speaking as a person who loves to speculate with "Intuitive reasoning" a.k.a. "making assumptions", that to me is part of the fun.
But as you say, the writers give us clues intelligently, and one cannot help but try to piece them together even thou the pieces might not fit.

Back in season 1 I was one of the (many) people who was convinced whatever was in the hatch was directly responsible for the whispers in the jungle.
Underground facility with lead pipes carries sound to the surface, it was a perfect neat theory.
Of course entirely wrong.

By that same logic thou the writers can hide the truth in plain view.
It doesn't make sense to me that this box is entirely a lie, the best lies are the ones that contain some truth in them, and Ben is a good liar.


-Exodus

personally, i would find a scientific explanation for what we saw smokey do to eko and the 'getting people on the plane and making them survive the crash' incredibly hard to swallow. i actually love the supernatural elements and magical realism in the show and the way the writers make us question what we've seen and try to compute it.
the most overused and misleading quotes are the ones where the writers mention science, many of these were before the second season which was based on the DI and the talk of science, imo, was to make us presume that the DI and science would provide us with the answers, whereas dharma was just another layer to peel back and not part of the bigger picture.
what really matters at the end of the day is how well the story is told. this is not a science documentary and anyone expecting it to work out that way will be disappointed i think.
what other stories are judged by whether thay are scientifically possible or not. how can the island be so special if there is nothing extra-ordinary about it ?

by deciding that there is only one way it should play out is just thinking your own theories are more important than the show.

no offense - this is just my take on it :)

here is a quote from Damon that should be food for though for some of you

DL "one of the seminal key influences on the show is Stephen King's 'The Stand.' J.J., Carleton and I have all read it, and it is sort of very similar in good versus evil playing out in a dramatic and supernatural context. That is a work that is often referred to."

http://realitydish.insidepulse.com/articles/44411

Don't get me started on Damon's unfortunate quote that everyone is parading around screaming "THEY SAID EVERYTHING HAS A SCIENTIFIC REASON"

Its completely out of context, he is answering a question about whether or not Lost would become a sci-fi show.
Lost is a drama show, its not a sci-fi.
It will always be a drama cuz thats the way its being made.
Damon's point was simply that the show called Lost would always focus on Drama before anything else.

Now even if the FINAL episode of lost finally wraps everything up with 4 toed alien space gods landing on the island in a Giant box engraved 4 8 15 16 23 42, and proclaims the Earth under their management with a magical wand, it would only be the very last episode, every episode up to that would still be a drama show, making Lost a drama show.


-Exodus

Don't get me started on Damon's unfortunate quote that everyone is parading around screaming "THEY SAID EVERYTHING HAS A SCIENTIFIC REASON"

Its completely out of context, he is answering a question about whether or not Lost would become a sci-fi show.
Lost is a drama show, its not a sci-fi.
It will always be a drama cuz thats the way its being made.
Damon's point was simply that the show called Lost would always focus on Drama before anything else.

Now even if the FINAL episode of lost finally wraps everything up with 4 toed alien space gods landing on the island in a Giant box engraved 4 8 15 16 23 42, and proclaims the Earth under their management with a magical wand, it would only be the very last episode, every episode up to that would still be a drama show, making Lost a drama show.


-Exodus

exactly :)

Whenever I see the term Deus Ex Machina (I believe that is the correct spelling), I am reminded by one of the lines in the film "Adaptation", written by Charlie Kauffman.

In that movie, the character of Charlie Kauffman (Nicholas Cage) attends a script writing class given by a character named Robert McKee, played by Brian Cox. McKee dispenses the following advise, with passion:

"I'll tell you a secret. The last act makes the film. Wow them in the end, and you've got a hit. You can have flaws, problems, but wow them in the end, and you've got a hit. Find an ending, but don't cheat, and don't you dare bring in a deus ex machina. Your characters must change, and the change must come from them. Do that, and you'll be fine".

Probably sound advise for Lindelof, Cuse and company as well.

actually, yes. everything that is typically considered Deus ex machina in regular storytelling would more than apply here.


you introduce all these surreal mysteries then explain it by saying there is a omiscient higher power, or magical box. it's the same as saying it was all a dream or in Hurley's head. Doesn't get any more 'Deus ex machina' than that.
100%
didn't fury leave the show shortly after that quote???

Deus ex machina is about resolution that is external to the actions of the protagonists. In Greek mythology a god is literally lowered on to the stage to resolve the conflict in a play. A supernatural explanation isn't necessarily deus ex machina, as long as the main character's actions precipitate the conclusion.

twinbad, BlackLotus - In both of your posts it seems like you touch upon something which is important to this issue, and that we all need to keep in mind. Any possible deus ex machina resolutions, and the scientific-ness of the explanations are two separate things. There could be explanations that are complete fantasy, but could still be well done, and not deus ex machina. Just the same, there could be scientific explanations that are at the same time deus ex machina (although I think this option is much more unlikely).