was that really Locke's dad? Or the smoke monster?

good point, this box thing is bad a**

good point, this box thing is bad a**


really? I think it's retarded. And a convenient way out to explain a lot of unexplainable questions.


"the answer to how john can walk, why kate saw her horse, how they survived the island, why they can heel quick, what is going on regarding EVERYTHING is all in this neat magical box that can give you cool stuff that you can wish for. And the more special you are, the better you can control the box"


Yikes...to me it's no different than the whole thing being in Hurley's head. 'magic' is a get out of jail free card. I'm surprised we didn't see any sharks jump the submarine ;)

really? I think it's retarded. And a convenient way out to explain a lot of unexplainable questions.


"the answer to how john can walk, why kate saw her horse, how they survived the island, why they can heel quick, what is going on regarding EVERYTHING is all in this neat magical box that can give you cool stuff that you can wish for. And the more special you are, the better you can control the box"


Yikes...to me it's no different than the whole thing being in Hurley's head. 'magic' is a get out of jail free card. I'm surprised we didn't see any sharks jump the submarine ;)

the box didn't make john walk the box makes things appear, you look at it and think about something you want and then it's there a direct qoute "what ever you want to be in it"

the box didn't make john walk the box makes things appear, you look at it and think about something you want and then it's there a direct qoute "what ever you want to be in it"



but doesn't a 'magic box' sound disappointing as a way of explaining any of the mythology???

but doesn't a 'magic box' sound disappointing as a way of explaining any of the mythology???

there is very little tptb could do that would dissapoint me, I am a true fan,

althoug also a leaf fan so maybe I need to rethink a few aspects of my life:biggrin:

hahahahha i'm a leaf fan too!


to be honest I consider myself a true fan and not a blind fan. After seeing what these creators CAN do, I can't be happy with scrambling to explain answers through magic.

as for the leafs. i'll always cheer for them, but I'm a realist...They have a lot of issues to figure out before they deserve to be a solid post season contender.

I think Ben tailored his description of the box especially for Locke. John loves the whole mystical, island telling him things angle and Ben telling him about a magical island box, entices Locke even more. It's also why Ben said he knows a lot about the island and that John has a special connection to the island.

I think Ben tailored his description of the box especially for Locke. John loves the whole mystical, island telling him things angle and Ben telling him about a magical island box, entices Locke even more. It's also why Ben said he knows a lot about the island and that John has a special connection to the island.

ben being the master manipulator he is, I never even thought about that

I'm wondering if this is kind of like Jack seeing his dad.

I'm also thinking that Ben may have had daddy issues, too, as he seems to associate with Jack and Locke in that way.

I think Ben tailored his description of the box especially for Locke. John loves the whole mystical, island telling him things angle and Ben telling him about a magical island box, entices Locke even more. It's also why Ben said he knows a lot about the island and that John has a special connection to the island.

That's exactly what I think!

So is Locke's dad "the Man from Talahassee" that Ben asked for near the beginning of the epi?
Or is it obvious that it was, and it's just a dumbarse question by me? :doh:

I think Ben tailored his description of the box especially for Locke. John loves the whole mystical, island telling him things angle and Ben telling him about a magical island box, entices Locke even more. It's also why Ben said he knows a lot about the island and that John has a special connection to the island.
Pen, I agree. It was made clear to us that Ben is a manipulator. "It's what he does" says Alex. "He will lie and lie again" says Danielle. The box is a manipulation tool for Locke. I think Ben is going to pursuade him to stay with the Others.

As for Cooper, he looked scared to me. I think he is really there - I hope Ben brought him.

Pen, I agree. It was made clear to us that Ben is a manipulator. "It's what he does" says Alex. "He will lie and lie again" says Danielle. The box is a manipulation tool for Locke. I think Ben is going to pursuade him to stay with the Others.

As for Cooper, he looked scared to me. I think he is really there - I hope Ben brought him.

Yes Cooper definitely looked scared and it seemed like he had some blood on his head, if I recall correctly. Having Locke stay with the others is possible. It's interesting that Ben is not punishing Locke for killing Mikhaul like Juliet was punished for shooting Danny.

Yes Cooper definitely looked scared and it seemed like he had some blood on his head, if I recall correctly. Having Locke stay with the others is possible. It's interesting that Ben is not punishing Locke for killing Mikhaul like Juliet was punished for shooting Danny.Yep, I saw blood, too. I think that Ben will want to keep Locke around. He has a connection with him and seems to have plans for him,

I wonder how recently they brought him to the island. They are lucky the anomaly happened later rather than sooner.

Could Locke's dad be Ben's dad? It seems that every character we know on the island has daddy issues. Maybe Ben had the daddy "recruited." I don't know, just grasping at straws here I suppose.

I don't know, but I do feel closer to finding out what's up after this episode. :shrug:

Would the 'magic box' be more acceptable if it was not a box at all but a really highly evolved individual with extraordinary powers of the mind?

There seems to be four possibilities for what Locke saw... a manifestation of the smoke monster, his real dad who is one of the Others, his real dad who was captured by the Others on the Island, or his real dad who was captured by the Others off the island.

I do not think it is the smoke monster. It would be way too early in the game for the writers to give us the secrets about the smoke monster and it would make the Others too powerful if they had control over it. Also, a lot of the smoke monster's actions are inconsistent with the Others' motives.

If it is Cooper and he's one of the Others just trying to con Locke, it would connect a lot of the past events. It would imply Locke is somehow important to Cooper's and/or the Others' plans, and EVERYTHING from when his 'mother' first contacted him in the parking lot has been a set up to condition Locke to where he is at present. The only problem with this idea is that you don't take someone that important to your plans and launch them out an 8-story window. I think this would be the most interesting possibility, but really don't see a way for it to work.

It would also be interesting if it is Cooper and he was involved with Dharma and was captured when the Others took over the island. But again, this almost certainly makes Locke a part of Cooper's plans and Cooper threw him out an 8-story window.

Which only leaves us with it being the real Cooper, captured from off the island and brought there so they could manipulate Locke. This seems a bit far-fetched to me, but at the same time seems to be the most solid in terms of possibilities.

Regardless of which one it is, they all have major implications. Looks like there will be a lot of possibilities for us to rack our brains over until next week. The cliche is that television breeds stupid zombies because you're not thinking while you watch it. Lost seems to do the exact opposite in that it tricks stupid zombies into thinking. :)

If it is Cooper and he's one of the Others just trying to con Locke, it would connect a lot of the past events. It would imply Locke is somehow important to Cooper's and/or the Others' plans, and EVERYTHING from when his 'mother' first contacted him in the parking lot has been a set up to condition Locke to where he is at present. The only problem with this idea is that you don't take someone that important to your plans and launch them out an 8-story window. I think this would be the most interesting possibility, but really don't see a way for it to work.

It would also be interesting if it is Cooper and he was involved with Dharma and was captured when the Others took over the island. But again, this almost certainly makes Locke a part of Cooper's plans and Cooper threw him out an 8-story window.

This is the way I'm leaning. Cooper is involved and the survivors were pre-selected. We know Ben had some time between when Locke left to blow the sub and the when he brought Locke to Cooper. I think Ben met with Cooper in the interim and told him that Locke was around and Cooper needed to play along and pretend to be scared.

As for how Locke survived the fall, I have to wonder if Cooper knew he would live through it. I've always wondered what made Ben so certain that he would live through the surgery Jack performed (I couldn't see Ben offering to go under the knife without a hole card.) Could it have something to do with the scotch John drank? It was the infamous 60 year brand that Mr. Widmore favors.:biggrin:

I think that Locke's Dad was really there too.. not smokey. Which means.. could Jack's father be alive as well?? I would LOVE that. All the Baddy Daddies on the island together.

i don't think Ben meant magic as in "David Copperfield" magic. I think he meant as in if you believe you can make things appear- let me show you how to make your power stronger. Kinda like Yoda or Obi Won

the box didn't make john walk the box makes things appear, you look at it and think about something you want and then it's there a direct qoute "what ever you want to be in it"Yes, but the whole "whatever you want to be in it" doesn't seem to fly. Ben points out the reason Locke may have really blown up the sub is to keep him FROM his father. And if his father is an apparition like Kate's horse, Hurley's Dave, Sayid's cat, Jack's father, and Eko's brother - all of those were things that were eating away at the castaways. So rather than sending you what you WANT, it may send you what you NEED TO GET OVER - and maybe provide a chance to get over it?

Then again, what we saw with Eko's brother is that those apparitions may be manifestations of the smoke monster. Could have been that just that one was the smoke monster, and the others weren't, but it's too close to call.


This is the way I'm leaning. Cooper is involved and the survivors were pre-selected. Unless Ben's lying (and we know that's totally possible), then there's no way the survivors were "pre-selected". He told Jack he needed a spinal surgeon, and then one just "fell out of the sky". From what we saw, the Others didn't see that coming (as well as the fact we saw that it was Desmond that brought it down), and so surely didn't plan it, and therefore couldn't have selected them. Maybe "The Island" selected them, but not the Others.


I don't know how they're going to play out this "magic box" thing - seems to easy an answer, but I'm not ready to doubt them yet, they've always come through with something good.

Ok, I may be committed for this one. This may be the farthest I've gone on a limb yet.

Everyone that we've seen manifested on the island that doesn't belong there was someone who has passed on. Whether this is a manifestation of Smokey/the box or not, I'm not willing to speculate yet.

I understand we've seen Dave (Hurley's invisible friend) which is a figment of Hurley's imagination. We've also seen the black horse, which I cannot account for...

What I'm concentrating on Jack's dad and Eko's brother. Both were blood relatives. Both are dead. Who's to say that, in the 4 years since Locke had last contact with his father, who happens to be aging, that he hasn't passed on as well.

I haven't had much time to fully formulate my theory on this. I thought I'd toss it to the sharks to tear apart. I am, by no means, incinuating that I'm on board with the purgatory theory floating about. Talk amungst yourselves.

Hmmm, I can't agree with that one, not really.
I always figured that smokey was able to manifest itself into different shapes according to whom it appeared to. For Jack it was his father, for Hurley it was Dave, for Kate the horse and so on.
But that means it doesn't really matter whether the person smokey appears to be is dead or not. As far as I know, we don't know whether Dave is dead, and Walt certainly wasn't, yet he appeared to Shannon and Sayid. That Jack saw his father even though he is dead (as far as we know) to me simply means that smokey appeared to Jack in that form because his father is the one he has unresolved issues with. Interestingly, Christian never again appeared to Jack after Sawyer told Jack about their meeting in Australia...
It might be that Locke's father has passed on since they last saw each other, or it might be that not.
However, I think it's awfully convenient that Ben is able to present Locke "the man from Tallahassee" at precisely that moment, just as if he had expected this to come. That can either mean two things:
1) Ben knew that it would come to just such a moment (maybe because Locke is the only one who has at least a notion of what this island is all about) and had Locke's father brought to the island. But why? What purpose would bringing him to the island have for Ben and the Others? Aside from how he managed to do that in the first place. Can't say, as we don't know yet what Locke will do after this revelation.
2) Ben and the others can manipulate smokey into showing certain things. That would mean they can control it somehow. That would tie in with Ben telling Locke about the "box" which can show you everything you want to. But it sounds strange because Ben told the other guy to "get the man from Tallahassee", which sounds like getting a real person from one place to the other, not like "program smokey to show the man from Tallahassee".
Can't wrap my mind about all this just yet. However, I really don't think that all the apparitions on the island including Locke's dad have anything to do with bringing back the dead. Too many of those apparitions were of people that weren't dead.
I really think that those apparitions have something to do with the internal struggles and unresolved issues of the people who see the apparitions. But that's just my two cents :biggrin:

I agree, and I posted on another thread along these lines. I do believe they can control Smokey to appear as anyone they wish. Given that Smokey has scanned Locke previously, it should have been no problem to conjure up Cooper.

We also know that they do take on physical form, because Yemmi (sp?) took the cross necklace from Eko before Eko met his demise.

I think the theory that Smokey can manifest only as dead people is because both Christian Shepard's and Yemi's bodies were missing on the island, and then were being used by Smokie (allegedly). The horse could be real (from the Flame?), and Dave could be from Hurley's imagination, so it's not far fetched to think that Smokey took the dead Yemi and Christian's bodies, and thus was able to manfiest as them.

We also know that they do take on physical form, because Yemmi (sp?) took the cross necklace from Eko before Eko met his demise.

I thought it was important to note that this scene was also the only time that we saw Smokey physically harm one of our peeps. The pilot is supposedly Smokey, but we can't be sure... and when Locke was dragged into the hole, that sounded like a chain.

the box didn't make john walk the box makes things appear, you look at it and think about something you want and then it's there a direct qoute "what ever you want to be in it"


Nanites can explain Smokey, the apparitions, the anything box, the health effects of the island, the "sickness" and pretty much everything else except the polar bears (natural answer to the question already given in the training film) and the Others/Hostiles. That's not "magic," it's just very advanced engineering, but it's certainly possible to imagine it. That's the definition of science fiction.

I think the theory that Smokey can manifest only as dead people is because both Christian Shepard's and Yemi's bodies were missing on the island, and then were being used by Smokie (allegedly). The horse could be real (from the Flame?), and Dave could be from Hurley's imagination, so it's not far fetched to think that Smokey took the dead Yemi and Christian's bodies, and thus was able to manfiest as them.
Rather than Cooper a recreation, what if Locke is a recreation, but modified with spinal correction? Ben brought in Cooper to continually smoke monster out Locke from his memory (thus the lack of paralysis). Locke had two purposes: one, to blow up the hatch (for Ben), which caused the end to communications and rescue; two, to blow up the submarine (for Ben), which now eliminates any escape. Locke is now expendable. Ben expects to die on this island, and his plan is to take everyone with him. Jack has merely extended his life here. The whole plane crash was planned as a background for Locke, who isolates the island while making Ben look good.

Everyone that we've seen manifested on the island that doesn't belong there was someone who has passed on.

Apart from Walt.
But then, given the questions Klugh asked Michael ("Has Walt ever appeared somewhere he couldn't be?", "Did you see him?"), opens the door to all sorts of theories about the Others investigating psychic phenomena that 'normally' we'd have to die to get in touch with.

Maybe they've been trying to re-animate the dead.

Maybe they're trying to find a way to communicate with the dead, the way Charlotte Malkin spoke to Yemi when she was, "Between spaces".

Maybe they think the objective reality we all commonly agree on is just an illusion; true reality is more of an underlying spirituality, and can be controlled. This one would reflect all the Philosophy references in the show, plus, "Only fools are enslaved by time and space".

And in all 3 cases the Others are trying to harness the natural forces on the island.

What a bunch of cults!

Don't many of the manifestations or recreations seem to occur with respect to another lostie who is usually isolated from the rest? It's as if the memories of chosen losties can be read as in a computer hard drive, and then recreated at will by a force (possibly the smoke monster or magic box.) People who are dead would naturally be on the minds of the losties, which is why most manifestations are dead. However Walt was also on the minds of everyone, but not dead. Which makes me wonder if Cooper wasn't captured long ago for the sole purpose of recreating pre-paralyzed Locke (using Cooper's memory.) Perhaps the plane crash was supposed to kill all passengers, although Cooper's memory would recreate Locke with leg movement, and he would be seen as the sole survivor. Manifested Locke would then be drawn to the Others, and would be manipulated by Ben to destroy communications and the sub. By mistake, however, there are many survivors. Locke's being a manifestation could explain his close identity with the island. Maybe Ben's first visit to the hatch wasn't to learn the numbers, but to begin the process of manipulating Locke (hence the gate being shut on Locke's legs).

I think there are two smoke monsters. They have one in captivity and the other escaped during the "incident." I think they are like the Martian in Bradbury's Martian Chronicles who involuntarily changes into whatever the person looking at him wants him to be, and is finally destroyed when captured by a crowd--he changes into everyone's wishes so fast it kills him. The one in captivity became Locke's father.

But Cooper seems to have been kept there for a while. Would the smoke monster remain in that manifestation for that long? It seems more likely that Locke would've wished the opposite, for his Dad never to be there. So Cooper seems more like cruel punishment on the part of Ben. Ben seems to be saying: "Look Locke, you did everything I had hoped for. If you think you won, why is your dad here? The wish box is mine, not yours, and you are the wish."

Teleporter

The idea of Locke as the manifestation is very interesting. Lots of great theories here!

I would also posit that Shannon was so distraught by Boone's death and then Walt's disappearance that she manifested Walt. This desire was widened to include wanting Sayid to see Walt as well, so it happened. I also think that Walt desperately wanted to communicate with some of his friends so that's why maybe his appearance was garbled? The wants crossed signals and made things backwards? :)

I'm captivated by all the theories too. There's no way to prove any, which is why this is fun. We all have to rely on the power of persuasion.

So far, though, I haven't seen a really good reason for why Cooper appears in the magic box. If this were a crime scene, there would be no motive. From what we know Ben has no altruistic bone in his body. Why would he want to give Locke the satisfaction of seeing his dad Cooper? Or, is Cooper Locke's weak link? Does the presence of Cooper make Locke a much weaker man? Or, is he just trying to prove that the magic box works, to intimidate Locke? My far out theory, that Cooper's memory of Locke (before he is paralyzed) is being manipulated by Ben to create Locke's manifestation, at least has a single motive--to use Locke to isolate the island. If so, though, Locke is history in the next show, so maybe Locke is the one who will die.

There's a big difference between Kate's horse and Sayid's cat and the 'apparitions' Jack, Locke and Eko saw. Both the animals were seen by other people and touched, but the apparitions, of Jack's dad for example, were weird and mysterious, not seen by anyone else. They were there to guide the 'visionee' to some end.

I really don't think that the 'monster' can create physical beings out of memories, just visions. That was Cooper in the chair tied and sweating, not some mysterious apparition.

I certainly don't think the 'magic box' exists, maybe the monster creating apparitions performs that purpose, showing you what you're thinking, but it's not an actual box and it can only show you visions.

So is Locke's dad "the Man from Talahassee" that Ben asked for near the beginning of the epi?
Or is it obvious that it was, and it's just a dumbarse question by me? :doh:
You've touched on something that has been bothering me:
To whom does Ben say: "Bring me the man from Tallahassee"? Was it Tom?

If it was Tom, maybe Cooper isn't TMFT. Maybe TMFT was Richard Alpert (aka Mittelos man). Remember that Juliet was in Florida when she was recruited by Alpert, right?

I may not be right, but the question is valid, isn't it? We do not KNOW that Cooper is TMFT.

From What I got Ben excused Tom & told Richard to stay a minute, jon got restless, then he aske Richard to get TMFT. Richard ( BatManual) is Juliets Recruiter. & First Time we see him on the island.

Kate's Horse:

I just watched that episode again, and thought it was interesting that it was an episode where everyone was a little worried about being crazy. but the key line for me is when Mr. Eko says,

"Don't mistake coincidence for fate."

- We know now that there are horses on the island, we saw them at The Flame station. Isn't it possible that she saw the horse which made her think about seeing it when the police car crashed and thats it? she mistook a simple coincidence, or deja vu moment even, for something bigger.