Is it an illusion? Is it real? Is it big enough to imagine a new submarine?

Is John's love for this island more than Ben's? Can this box really exsist?

the "box" might be a metaphor for something greater, something that cannot be explained as easily

Like the russian guy said, "let me put it so that you will understand"

Ben is trying to get John to think Cooper came out of the box, whatever that is. He is certainly manipulating Locke, but this is a pretty mysterious manipulation, that's for sure.

the "box" might be a metaphor for something greater, something that cannot be explained as easily

Like the russian guy said, "let me put it so that you will understand"Agreed. He chose "box" because it was something in Locke's past.

I think it has something to do with Smokey.

Ben is trying to get John to think Cooper came out of the box, whatever that is. He is certainly manipulating Locke, but this is a pretty mysterious manipulation, that's for sure.

Yup I agree with you Jenny, though I do wonder why he is doing this?

its totally smokey!

Ben is trying to get John to think Cooper came out of the box, whatever that is. He is certainly manipulating Locke, but this is a pretty mysterious manipulation, that's for sure.

Of course, the obvious question now is: Where the hell did they get Cooper from, then? :eek2:

there is something inside of me that thinks the Others captured cooper for lockes revenge...

Of course, the obvious question now is: Where the hell did they get Cooper from, then? :eek2:

He could be a vision like Christian and Yemi, or the others could have got their outside contacts to kidnap Cooper and they've been holding him captive on the island for over a month.

He could be a vision like Christian and Yemi.

Then Ben and Richard couldn't see him, so we can rule that out.

pen I think the same thing.....and the other thing I am thinking now is that once Ben put 2 nd 2 together...they captured their own Other for Lockes sake...Ben and Locke are somehow connected .....I think Ben relaly does like Locke in his weird strange way

I think by "box" he was referring to Smokie maybe? Because Cooper came out of the box (or whatever he said..lol) much like Yemi did for Eko maybe?

Anyway...the "box" = Smokie I think....

Good...Smokie in box...

I like that idea...but what does smokie or the box run on???

Then Ben and Richard couldn't see him, so we can rule that out.


How can you rule that out? I always thought they could have shared "visions". I'm not saying it is for sure but I really don't see how you can rule it out just because more than one person saw him.

...unless im missing something here.

Originally Posted by jennylee27 http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/images/FuselageGreen/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?p=1442429#post1442429)
Ben is trying to get John to think Cooper came out of the box, whatever that is. He is certainly manipulating Locke, but this is a pretty mysterious manipulation, that's for sure.


Of course, the obvious question now is: Where the hell did they get Cooper from, then? :eek2:

Just like Danielle said - her dad manipulates people. Lockes dad is there because Ben is manipulating Loch.

And like Locke said, Ben is in the chair and Locke isn't. Lock has something that Ben wants, and Cooper is the way Ben will get it.

But how would Ben even kow that he'd see Locke again? Did he assume Locke would come after Jack? Not very convenient to have a guy's kidnapped father and not have the guy.

I don't think there is a "box" per say - or anything that manifests things from anyone's sub conscience (ala "Sphere"). When Ben said "Bring me the man from Tallahassee," and that other guys said "What do you want him for?" It was almost like Cooper had been there for some time. Like, as soon as they did profiles on the Losties, they gathered Cooper up ASAP for future use.

Like the "box" could just be ABOLUTE POWER. Power to get whatever you wanted really.....know what I mean? Not in a God way, but in a super powerful/rich dude way.

Good...Smokie in box...

I like that idea...but what does smokie or the box run on???


I have absolutely no clue..lol

Locke: "What do you want, me to forgive him?"

Ben: "I want you to want to forgive him."

I don't think there is a "box" per say - or anything that manifests things from anyone's sub conscience (ala "Sphere"). When Ben said "Bring me the man from Tallahassee," and that other guys said "What do you want him for?" It was almost like Cooper had been there for some time. Like, as soon as they did profiles on the Losties, they gathered Cooper up ASAP for future use.

Like the "box" could just be ABOLUTE POWER. Power to get whatever you wanted really.....know what I mean? Not in a God way, but in a super powerful/rich dude way.

I agree that I don't think there is a box, I feel that he was referring to that room that they opened up that housed lockes dad. By opening that door Locke realized that the Others were as much a part of the mystery of the island as the island itself.

Then Ben and Richard couldn't see him, so we can rule that out.

I'm not sure if it's definitive if only one person can see a vision or not. If the horse was a vision or Walt in the jungle was a vision, then more than one person can see them. Also, we don't know if Ben and Richard saw Cooper. Locke says Dad right away, so they know what he saw.

But how would Ben even kow that he'd see Locke again? Did he assume Locke would come after Jack? Not very convenient to have a guy's kidnapped father and not have the guy.

Ben knew Locke was special from the start. Right at the crash. He immediately got/kidnapped Cooper for leverage. Thats all Cooper is, leverage. If they can use him, great. If they can't then oh well.

I think the reference to the box was just a metaphor Ben used because he knew what John would like to see. He told his people to "bring me the man from Tallahassee" who I am assuming is Anthony as he would not want to say the name in front of John and ruin the surprise. Then he had them tie Anthony up and place him in the closet. I don't think it was meant to make us think that Cooper appeared because John opened the door. I would like to know how he got there though! Could he have been on the tail section of the plane and kidnapped with the others from the tail?

I seem to remember an old thread about all the different box references on LOST, can't find it right now, plus I'm lazy. Do you guys think it has something to do with Pandora's box?

I don't think there is a "box" per say - or anything that manifests things from anyone's sub conscience (ala "Sphere"). When Ben said "Bring me the man from Tallahassee," and that other guys said "What do you want him for?" It was almost like Cooper had been there for some time. Like, as soon as they did profiles on the Losties, they gathered Cooper up ASAP for future use.

The fact that they said Bring the man from Tallahassee tells that it is not smokey. I don't get the impression that anyone can bring the smoke monster somewhere at will.

interesting the way all of JJ's shows have had a mysterious "box"... on Felicity there was Megan's Box, and on Alias there was the box with Irina's name on it... makes me think of "Pandora's Box" or the phrase "thinking outside the box"

im going out on a random guess here but do u think it has something to do with the "powers" walt had. Walt was able to bring forth animals which we saw in previous episodes so maybe someone else is able to do the same but just alot better.

Maybe the box is a person?

Well, by the looks of him (lockes dad) he was pretty well beat up. If he "just appeared" in the box I doubt he would look that bad. Of course Bens crew could have beat him right after he showed up, I guess? Just putting it out there.

It seems the island brings to life (or to apparition) one's primal thoughts - from an unconscious level... There was a sci-fi movie that did this really well: Forbidden Planet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forbidden_Planet). Id ( as in id, ego, superego) became reality in the form of monster...

interesting that this episode had two references to JJ Abrams' Alias. First, the role of "the box" -- which was the centerpiece of many Alias Rambaldi episodes and the one with Tarantino. Second, the cliffhanger, "Dad?" was very similar to the cliffhanger of Alias season one - "Mom?".

I guess JJ still has a creative hand in this show???

i agree i dont think the box is actually a "box" necessarily... maybe the heiroglyphs have something to do with it but im thinking ben read the inscription on the "box"(im thinkin something like a pandoras box... or other ancient artifact... oh and maybe thats why the ship crashed there they were hiding the artifact) maybe explaining its use and its powers but im still uncertain as to ben or the others being able to control it... why wouldnt they imagine a huge table with all the food you can eat... i think this "box" manifests things from peoples minds and only those people with the special attunement of the island somewhat like smokey but i think sometime when locke was on the island he made his father appear in the room and thats how the others knew he was so special... damn only a theory and ive got hundreds more

Well, by the looks of him (lockes dad) he was pretty well beat up. If he "just appeared" in the box I doubt he would look that bad. Of course Bens crew could have beat him right after he showed up, I guess? Just putting it out there.Thats pretty much what I was thinking. Same thing for thinking it's Smokey. Why would he be beat up? Also, if that room was 'the box' why would Locke's biggest desire be to have his Dad there when Ben made it pretty clear that Locke wants to stay on the island because he fears his father?

My theory:

The Box = The Mind

I think a good many of 'the others' have some sort of psychic abilities and that that is how they have gathered some of their most personal information about them.

I believe when they 'read' Locke and realized how evil his Dad was (I'm thinking Locke has always been on Jacob's list) they kidnapped him - perhaps Alpert brought him back to the island the last time he was out in the real world - and that they will test Locke to see if he wants vengeance or just to have his father love him (which, I believe, is John's deepest desire) when they realize that John isn't going to kill Cooper, Cooper will be 'the others' latest brainwashing experiment so that Locke & Cooper can live happily ever after in the others utopian society.

Just a theory though...

Just throwing my two cents in...

I think that the writers want us to assume that it's smokey appearing as Cooper, but in reality it's either really the man himself, or something else we don't understand yet. I don't know how long they had him, but I couldn't help but think back to Ben's conversation with Jack, prior to his surgery. He said something along the lines of "two weeks after I find out I have a life-threatening tumor, and a spinal surgeon falls out of the sky". That to me says that Ben willed the plane crash itself to come out of this proverbial "box".

So, if he could do that, then it shouldn't be outside the realm of possibility that he could come up with Locke's dad if he really wanted him. That's not to say that these things don't arrive to the island via normal means, like maybe he got to the island somehow rather than appearing out of thin air, but the result would be the same. It could also explain other events, like Hurley's experience with the numbers prior to the crash, like maybe that was the series of events that had to unfold so that the crash would occur, and thus Ben's surgeon would get to the island. And maybe that's what the lady in Desmond's ring shop was referring to when she told him he had to refuse the ring and get to the island, because then he'd make the plane crash.

Anyone else think this could be where they're going with this??

I guess it's too much of a stretch to think that Lockes father was on flight 815. The part that seems strange to me is that Ben and most of the others for that matter know every detail of Locke's life. This seems to imply that either they knew the plane would crash and had background info on all the passengers OR somehow Smokey is able to scan and record the memories of those it encounters.

I'm sure this has been said already but...is it bigger than a breadbox?

I think "the Box" is not real, it's a lie thought up by Ben to fool John into thinking Ben has a higher connection or insight to the Island than John. Ben is all about manipulation.

I also don't think Locke's dad is the smoke monster. There are several explanations.

1. He is a flight 815 survivor. He could have been in the tail section or the front of the plane (remember, the pilot survived!).

2. He could have arrived on the island another way - perhaps he was kidnapped before the Others lost contact.

2. He is Jacob or "Him" and is playing the part of captive to manipulate John. Why he needs to do that, I don't know.

My theory:

The Box = The Mind

That's pretty good. I mean, after all, the brain is one strange place and scientists still haven't figured most of it out yet.


Here's a different spin:

When television was first introduced, IT was called the Magic Box. There was also a Time Warner project in 1994 (http://www.kenauletta.com/themagicbox.html) that introduced interactive tv called the Magic Box.

But I was thinking the real Magic Box is a computer linked to the Internet. Think about it. Any possible thing you can imagine, you can bring up and it will appear on the Magic Box. :redface:

I suppose the next technological level would be like the Jetsons - you bring it up on the screen and it appears in real life.

Crazy????????

Right now I'm going with the "box" being a metaphor for the island. Ben used the word box because Walt told Locke not to open it, and Locke used to work at a box company. And the hatch was like a box too.
The boxes are *everywhere* on this island...
Definitely meant to refer to Pandora.
Definitely a reference to the mind.

Other than that, I have basically no clue. Is it Smokey? I have no clue.
But I don't think it's that room. I think it's probably the island which causes things to appear but I'm just not sure.

I came here to write nearly exactly what Lost in Louisiana wrote... dagnabbit. Ben describes the box as something that contains imagination. That's also what a television does (and computer; most are watching Lost on TV, but plenty are watching it on the Intertubes too).

In other words, no matter what the box on the island is, Ben's description of it is a metaphor for the medium we're experiencing Lost on. What's more, the way people throw out theories on the web, it also makes the computer box a place where anything can be. It's a great little double meaning.

2. He is Jacob or "Him" and is playing the part of captive to manipulate John. Why he needs to do that, I don't know.

Kind of like how Ben played the part of Henry Gale and tried to manipulate John? Intresting. Maybe Ben learned fron the best....Jacob?

Ok, after reading countless posts about how TPTB have created some magical box and blah blah blah, I have to post this. The box is obviously a metaphor. I seriously doubt there is a real magical box in this show that Ben is referring to.

Hasn't anyone been watching the show? Was the Black Rock a real black rock?

Read The Tempest Heart. Then discuss the idea of a "box" (metaphorically, not physically) that gives you anything your heart desires - at a price.

The box is Anthony's holding cell. It holds what Locke really wants. Period.

Does anyone agree with this, or am I going to have to read 9000 more posts about a magical box that TPTB created to have an easy answer.

I thought it was a pretty easy explanation. Apparently lots of other people actually took Ben literally.

what metaphor can bring locke's dad to the island?


if it hsa a greater meaning and there is a logical explanation to this i'm fine. in fact i'm thrilled. we'll have to wait and see.

Does anyone agree with this, or am I going to have to read 9000 more posts about a magical box that TPTB created to have an easy answer.


I agree that the box is a metaphor and that we'll have to read 9000 posts about it.
On the bright side, we won't have to read as many time loop posts.

edited to add: but but but but there IS a real black rock, the one that Claire dreamed about! The Black Rock ship was a red herring.

I couldn't agree more.

what metaphor can bring locke's dad to the island?


if it hsa a greater meaning and there is a logical explanation to this i'm fine. in fact i'm thrilled. we'll have to wait and see.

The submarine brought him to the island well before the communications loss. It brought Tom, Juliet, and Richard. It can bring Anthony. That seems pretty logical to me.

Granted, that's simply an assumption.

The thing is, does Locke really want Anthony Cooper? If anything, I think he'd want to be as far away from the guy as possible.

what metaphor can bring locke's dad to the island?
.

He was brought to the island by Ben, no metaphor needed.
No magic either. Locke's dad is a con man, Ben loves cons.

You are probablyright about the box being a metaphor. But, the problem is, it wasn't a very good one. Those lines just weren't written very well. It sounded silly instead of cool and mysterious.
The box is Anthony's holding cell. It holds what Locke really wants. Period.




And as far as that goes, I believe the holding cell held the one thing that Locke most certainly didn't want. I think that Ben was right about Locke blowing up the sub to prevent his father from ever entering his life again. That was Locke's biggest fear. ( Although in that scene, Cooper seemed to be the frighten one. :biggrin: )

Ok, after reading countless posts about how TPTB have created some magical box and blah blah blah, I have to post this. The box is obviously a metaphor. I seriously doubt there is a real magical box in this show that Ben is referring to.

Hasn't anyone been watching the show? Was the Black Rock a real black rock?

Read The Tempest Heart. Then discuss the idea of a "box" (metaphorically, not physically) that gives you anything your heart desires - at a price.

The box is Anthony's holding cell. It holds what Locke really wants. Period.

Does anyone agree with this, or am I going to have to read 9000 more posts about a magical box that TPTB created to have an easy answer.

I thought it was a pretty easy explanation. Apparently lots of other people actually took Ben literally.

Am I the only person that remembers the early reference from Season One by Javier to Flanny O'Brien's "The Third Policeman"?

From season 1 - Numbers:
LENNY: You used those numbers to play the lottery?

HURLEY: Uh, yeah.

LENNY: Well, you shouldn't have done that. You've opened the box

From season 1 - Numbers:
LENNY: You used those numbers to play the lottery?

HURLEY: Uh, yeah.

LENNY: Well, you shouldn't have done that. You've opened the box

Good memory. Throw that in with the early reference to "The Third Policeman" and all those people who say the writer's are just making it up look like morons.

Well, Cooper looked real enough to me. He was beat up, and clearly frightened at the sight of Locke, as if he knew he was going to get what's coming to him. The question is, was he actually conjured up by Locke's "communion" with the Island, or was he kidnapped by the Others and brought to the Island pre-turning of the failsafe key?

I'd say the latter is more likely, but that would seem to contradict Ben's take on matters. He doesn't appear to be the most trustworthy sort, but as with all the Others, he does appear inclined to keep it straight, with slight embellishments designed to obscure more valuable details.

Richard Alpert didn't have much screentime tonight, but appears to be the Others' key man when it comes to recruitment and the eradication of "obstructions." If he can cause Edmund Burke to get hit by a bus, than it's very likely he could track down Cooper, either abduct or recruit him (conned more likely) and then bring him to the Island to be used as leverage.

Only time will tell, it will be interesting to see.

Picture a box..You know something about boxes, don't you John? What if I told you that somewhere on this island, there's a very large box, and whatever you imagined, whatever you wanted to be in it, when you opened that box, there it would be...


Maybe he's saying, "We have the thing that you're longing for the most in this world tied up in a small room...."

Maybe..

But how can you say "It's obviously a metaphor."

What if someone had said, "Somewhere on this island is an alarm system that can take the shape of whatever is in your mind...Just like Gozer could do on Ghostbusters."

Wouldn't you say, "That's gotta be a metaphor because things like that don't really exist."?

Maybe...

So, maybe you're right, but if you're wrong, then you just seem foolish for declaring that everyone is obviously wrong, and there's no question that it's a metaphor.

Okay, if Cooper's in this box, where is it and how many more people are in it??
For real though, if they've got prisoners somewhere, where, why?

Am I the only person that remembers the early reference from Season One by Javier to Flanny O'Brien's "The Third Policeman"?

Not by a long shot, it's already been discussed on a couple of other boards.
Imo, it's a nod to the work.

Sier, maybe we need a code: don't read any threads entitled "the box" unless accompanied by "metaphor" or my personal favorite "dad in a box".

From season 1 - Numbers:
LENNY: You used those numbers to play the lottery?

HURLEY: Uh, yeah.

LENNY: Well, you shouldn't have done that. You've opened the box

I think the box in this case is Pandora's Box, which in Greek myth unleashed all sorts of suffering when it was opened (though hope remained trapped within when Pandora closed it).

TPTB love taking symbols and recylcing them every which way.... "THE BOX" can be a lot of things....

One: Cut a hole in a box.

Two: Put your dad in that box

Three: Make him open the box

Every single holiday - my dad in a box!

And yeah, I could be foolish for saying "it's obviously a metaphor", but what I meant was "It's obvious to me". Locke may hate his dad, but it's been shown time and time again he's obsessed with him - and he was using the island to run away.

But Ben called him out and knew what he really wanted - his dad. For revenge? Maybe. For acceptance? Maybe. But his dad was in a big box. That's hard to ignore.

<<The thing is, does Locke really want Anthony Cooper? If anything, I think he'd want to be as far away from the guy as possible.>>

You'd think that logically, but I think Locke might be so starved for a father and for love that he might view it as an opportunity the make things right with his dad. When he saw him, he said, "Dad?" didn't he? Not, "You!" or "You son-of-a-*****" I don't know, but I think Locke is a little deranged so maybe he won't be mad. He should be. But I'm not sure he will be.

I'm open for debate on that one.:34853_huh:

MB

From season 1 - Numbers:
LENNY: You used those numbers to play the lottery?

HURLEY: Uh, yeah.

LENNY: Well, you shouldn't have done that. You've opened the box


Great memory! Maybe he meant "opening the box" litterally? Now that you bring up Lenny, doesn't he kind of remind you of Carl, I mean how messed up Carl was after he was in the "room"? Maybe Lenny was in the room too long?

I hate to start another thread, but it really must be Pandora's box! ;)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandora
Lets discuss...

If there's a box, I think it's the reason behind the appearance of the horse, the cat and Jack's dad on the island as well. It might also be the reason we saw Yemi's plane and corpse as well.

What if I told you that somewhere on this island, there's a very large box, and whatever you imagined, whatever you wanted to be in it, when you opened that box, there it would be...


So whatever you imagined, like a Horse, or Jack's Dad, or Eko's brother, or Locke's Dad now? Anyone notice that fairly decent care was taken to show that only Locke looked into the room.

Getting his actual dad to the island, that would be tough, but having whatever made the other hallucinations make one more, that sounds more logical to me.

<<The thing is, does Locke really want Anthony Cooper? If anything, I think he'd want to be as far away from the guy as possible.>>

You'd think that logically, but I think Locke might be so starved for a father and for love that he might view it as an opportunity the make things right with his dad. When he saw him, he said, "Dad?" didn't he? Not, "You!" or "You son-of-a-*****" I don't know, but I think Locke is a little deranged so maybe he won't be mad. He should be. But I'm not sure he will be.

I'm open for debate on that one.:34853_huh:

MB

I agree with that. Locke's dad screwed him over several times - and yet he still wanted to know him. He hates him - HATES HIM - but wants a father badly.

It does seem that he'd want to kill him the first chance he gets. But he hasnt. And he most likely wont. He wants Anthony to love him and is completely weak in that regard.

But Ben called him out and knew what he really wanted - his dad. For revenge? Maybe. For acceptance? Maybe. But his dad was in a big box. That's hard to ignore.

Ben the master manipulator, always knows what people want. That's his "gift", nothing supernatural about it. Anyone who's been around as many decades as I have has known people like that.

Pandora's Box = Locke's Box
I'd like to know what Al Gore has to say on the topic.

HIs dad was in a room, not a "box". I don't believe there is an actual physical magic box, I think the box was a metaphor for the powers of the island. I think the island is that box. On the island, your wishes come true if you can find a way to tap into it. Locke obviously has and Ben very much wants to. Despite having lived there his entire life he can only create the illusion that he has the power but he doesn't. But Walt did and Locke does and Hurley believed the van would start and it did, he wanted food and it fell from the sky, Charlie wished for heroin and a planeload of it appeared, and Walt imagined a polar bear when he read about it in his comic book. I think that is what Ben is after. They are trying to tap into that and learn how to control it.

Yep, I agree.

One: Cut a hole in a box.

Two: Put your dad in that box

Three: Make him open the box

Every single holiday - my dad in a box!

OMG, I laughed so hard I had a coughing fit!

I got to say no way and here is why.

Inside the box is supposed to be evil. In the stories the box was opened but then later the box's contents were put back in the box. So if that is pandora's box then when its opened evil should come out yet if that would happen how could anything you imagined come out. Only evil would come out. Doesn't work out.

I said it was a metaphor in the insiderscoop spoiler thread before I even saw the episode. From day one we've known that the island can make things appear to people. Ben hasn't been hanging with the Losties for 80 days, and with all he knows, he may not know just how many solid hallucinations have been popping up on the other side of Otherville.

So he's tempting Locke with something Locke already knows, but he's pretending that he, Ben, knows how you can control such a connection to the island to make it bring you specific things. Maybe he does know, but the catch is that he doesn't have that connection and has apparently been luring as many people who might to the island so he can figure out where the power comes from.

While everyone else was rejected by their fathers, Ben's been rejected by the island. All his talk about making a wish and having it granted is just wishful thinking on his part, imo.

Cardie

....Or Cooper is "him" and has always been there. sorry, someone had to say it!

HIs dad was in a room, not a "box". I don't believe there is an actual physical magic box, I think the box was a metaphor for the powers of the island. I think the island is that box. On the island, your wishes come true if you can find a way to tap into it. Locke obviously has and Ben very much wants to. Despite having lived there his entire life he can only create the illusion that he has the power but he doesn't. But Walt did and Locke does and Hurley believed the van would start and it did, he wanted food and it fell from the sky, Charlie wished for heroin and a planeload of it appeared, and Walt imagined a polar bear when he read about it in his comic book. I think that is what Ben is after. They are trying to tap into that and learn how to control it.

Very true. I do wonder why the Others (Ben) haven't kept Hurley or Charlie though?

I could be absolutely wrong about the actual holding cell being "The Box", but I do believe it was a metaphor.

Also, Ben clearly asks for "The Man from Tallahasse" before he ever tells Locke about The Box, so, to me, its obvious the "magical box" isn't to be taken literally.
100%
....Or Cooper is "him" and has always been there. sorry, someone had to say it!

That's certainly a possibility as well. I hope that isn't the case, but it's possible.

I just had a thought that The Box is contains all of the losties family members and past family members, maybe biological only. Maybe everyone family members were brought to the island, wheter or not the relationship was a happy one or not. Thought? Thanks.
100%
Maybe, Penny is there for Desmond, Nadia for Sayid, Kate's mom and dad, Jack's dad? hehe, Hurley's mom and dad, etc.... You get the idea, what do you guys think? Thanks so much.

On the island, your wishes come true if you can find a way to tap into it. Locke obviously has and Ben very much wants to. Despite having lived there his entire life he can only create the illusion that he has the power but he doesn't. But Walt did and Locke does and Hurley believed the van would start and it did, he wanted food and it fell from the sky, Charlie wished for heroin and a planeload of it appeared, and Walt imagined a polar bear when he read about it in his comic book. I think that is what Ben is after. They are trying to tap into that and learn how to control it.

Good stuff.
I still think "it" is metaphorical but I love your summary.

´m thinking that the Sawyer on the manifest is actually him...

"our" Sawyer, maybe remebering the name just took it on to see who would come out and claim it.

Think about it.. the guy (our sawyer) used the name to con people too, why the heck would he use it to travel and be easily tracked?

Never mind.. I never "discover" anything that actually ends up happening. ahhahhaha

so it seems some people think the monster is like the boggart in Harry Potter and this box is what the monster is kept in, just like the boggarts are kept in boxes or cupboards or what not

HIs dad was in a room, not a "box". I don't believe there is an actual physical magic box, I think the box was a metaphor for the powers of the island. I think the island is that box. On the island, your wishes come true if you can find a way to tap into it. Locke obviously has and Ben very much wants to. Despite having lived there his entire life he can only create the illusion that he has the power but he doesn't. But Walt did and Locke does and Hurley believed the van would start and it did, he wanted food and it fell from the sky, Charlie wished for heroin and a planeload of it appeared, and Walt imagined a polar bear when he read about it in his comic book. I think that is what Ben is after. They are trying to tap into that and learn how to control it.

Yup, I agree... though I don't know if it's something that can be controlled or tapped into. It's more if the Island wants you to have it or not. The Island certainly doesn't want Ben to heal, or at least not as fast as Locke. Meanwhile, it's virtually giving Locke everything he wants at this point. (And while I think h certainly fears his father, ihe's a new man on the Island and this'll be a different sort of confrontation between him and Darth Cooper.)

Aw, my thread got merged into this massive one =[

I understand why, but damn..hahaha.

I couldn't help but think back to Ben's conversation with Jack, prior to his surgery. He said something along the lines of "two weeks after I find out I have a life-threatening tumor, and a spinal surgeon falls out of the sky". That to me says that Ben willed the plane crash itself to come out of this proverbial "box".

Maybe Ben wished him there with the "magic Box".
Julia tells the people she couldn't come to work for them unless Edmund Burke was hit by a bus, and Edmund Burke is then hit by a bus.
What are the odds that Echo would have just crashed on the same Island that his brother crashed on - of all the places in the world??????
Locke can walk when he crashes into the Island....Rose feels she is cured of her cancer.

Lets not forget Desmonds amazing new talent, and his adventures in time travel.(from the Island back home, back in time, and then back again)
Maybe the others can time travel too, and that was how they got Anthony Cooper there? The magic box could be some left over scientific experiment of Dharma for all we know.

Yup, I agree... though I don't know if it's something that can be controlled or tapped into. It's more if the Island wants you to have it or not. The Island certainly doesn't want Ben to heal, or at least not as fast as Locke. Meanwhile, it's virtually giving Locke everything he wants at this point. (And while I think h certainly fears his father, ihe's a new man on the Island and this'll be a different sort of confrontation between him and Darth Cooper.)

If that's the case then why would Boone die? Locke didn't want that. Why would Locke lose his ability to walk for a while? Locke didn't want that? Why would Locke lose his voice? Locke didn't want that.


I very much think that there is a box and it to a degree gives you what you want.

Good memory. Throw that in with the early reference to "The Third Policeman" and all those people who say the writer's are just making it up look like morons.

Actually I dont think that prior quote has anything to do with Bens Box.

Ben mentioned box as a metaphor because he was just talking about the box company.

well dont forget this guys:
http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/The_Third_Policeman

that was the first thing i thought of when ben brought up the box. you all really need to read this!!!

Perhaps this so-called Box might explain the Others and Dharmas seemingly limitless resources and encyclopaedic knowledge; perhaps it's some sort of alchemical device or something.

It's pretty obvious from all the strange apparitions, smokey and geological anomalies that this Island has some, let's call them supernatural properties.

From the writers viewpoint, these peculiarities would be ideal when they eventually will have to offer an explanation for the Others/Dharma's omnipotence.

Any takers?:p

I'd like to know what Al Gore has to say on the topic.

He's too busy using up the worlds resources to save the worlds resources. In fact Al Gore may be Jacob:biggrin:

If that's the case then why would Boone die? Locke didn't want that. Why would Locke lose his ability to walk for a while? Locke didn't want that? Why would Locke lose his voice? Locke didn't want that.

That's why I said that getting what you want or need has nothing to do with what a character wants but what The Island wants or thinks they should have.

From Season 1 Episode 18 (Numbers)

Hurley in the mental hospital, talking to Lenny
http://img133.imageshack.us/img133/8909/boxyk4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
Lenny : "You used those numbers to play the lottery?..... You shouldnt have done that! Youve opened the box!!!!"

Interesting. I do think that the whole 'box' thing is a metaphor, and nice to see Lenny used it as a metaphor as well (if it was the same "box" he was talking about!)

Whoa! Good catch!

Ah, I'd forgotten about that. Thanks for the memory jog. All I kept thinking about was Walt when he yelled "don't open it!" I miss Walt . . . sigh . . .

I think the island itself is the Box. The Others are there to study/learn to manipulate to their own advantage the odd manifestations that occur. Or to prevent another group from gaining access to these manifestations.

Is it an illusion? Is it real? Is it big enough to imagine a new submarine?

Is John's love for this island more than Ben's? Can this box really exsist?


IMO, a lot of what ben was saying to john one on one tonight was pure lies. ben knows john has a link with the island that is more powerful than his own, so he has to flex his muscle and one-up john without giving away his hand. if ben would of really been threatend tonight by johns island connection, he might of done something drastic (not like cooper wasnt dramatic) and possiblly dangerous for everyone, at that could of lead to more insight on what the box is.

ben said that anything you want to be in box will be in the box, so when you want something unique like a person, does that person get yanked from where ever they were right before the user uses the box?

also, IMO, the Smoke is from the box. if the box produces ANYTHING the user thinks of, then the limits to the contents are as big as the users imagination. meaning that if the user can imagine something, the Smoke, that doesnt exist in the users reality, then the box creates it?

Not Pandora's box. Schrödinger's box.

Physicist Erwin Schrödinger proposed a thought experiment to Albert Einstein in the late 1920s to consider one of the fundamental principles of quantum mechanics -- the idea that quantum phenomena are in flux as waveforms (or clouds) until they can be observed. At that point the wave collapses into a particle. The act of observation makes the particle's state concrete.

Picture a cat sealed in a box with a nuclear deathtrap that will release a deadly poison if a single particle decays. Until you open the box, the cat exists in a state of quantum flux, both alive and dead. When the box is open, the possible states of the cat collapse into the observable result.

Hey, didn't Sayid just observe an improbable cat? :biggrin:

It seems the island brings to life (or to apparition) one's primal thoughts - from an unconscious level... There was a sci-fi movie that did this really well: Forbidden Planet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forbidden_Planet). Id ( as in id, ego, superego) became reality in the form of monster...


Good grief. Reading the synopsis of 'Forbidden Planet' it sure sounds a lot like
'Forbidden Island', er 'Lost'. I never realized that. Many, many aspects are similar,
including a strange 'monster'.

I wonder if the box is the room where Karl was being brainwashed. It might be the reason the Others know so much about the Losties is because they implanted all the memories they have using "the box".

Maybe Locke's dad is one of them and all the memories Locke has was implanted. That is how Locke's dad got on the island. He has always been there and was used as the model for Locke's father. And him being tied up and bloody is just an act.

This is why Locke can now walk - because he was never really paralyzed - his memories of the wheelchair are implanted.

Is it possible Kate spent some time in the box after having breakfast with Ben?

I wonder if the box is the room where Karl was being brainwashed. It might be the reason the Others know so much about the Losties is because they implanted all the memories they have using "the box".

Maybe Locke's dad is one of them and all the memories Locke has was implanted. That is how Locke's dad got on the island. He has always been there and was used as the model for Locke's father. And him being tied up and bloody is just an act.

This is why Locke can now walk - because he was never really paralyzed - his memories of the wheelchair are implanted.

Is it possible Kate spent some time in the box after having breakfast with Ben?


I don't think the box is where Karl was. Two way different things. As for Kate being in the box, I don't think she was in the box that we first saw last night as for Kate being in the room that Karl was in, you could debate that. I personally don't think she was in there. I don't think Locke's father was on the island until that day when Ben got him there. How? I have no clue!!! That darn box, it's a mystery!! I think Locke's memories are all real, the survivors had lives outside of this island and I don't think there has been any fake memories implanted into any of them including Locke. I think the flashbacks are an insightful way to learn about the characters and to make the memories fake would be a huge letdown, the writers would really be making a big mistake. All the flashbacks are real.

you have to remember that this "box" is still unconfirmed

That's an interesting take on the Schrödinger's box theory in relation to lost... I like it.

In the book "The Third Policeman", they also have a magic box thing contained within a hatch. This box can generate anything you desire. However, in the book, anything that you command from the box can only exist within the confines of the hatch and cannot be brought outside. Could this be the same with the island and Ben's magic box?

I'm with lostlocke on this one. I think this would be a highly guarded small chamber, possibly underground. Maybe like a crypt or something. I think that smokey may be an arm, after effect or result of the partial/non-material manifestation of the box's powers. It'll be interesting to see if we get to see this box by the finale.

I started a thread back in December : dnalsI ehT (http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=66284), talking about this very idea - that things on the Island are there because the Losties "willed" them into being.

I guess it's too much of a stretch to think that Lockes father was on flight 815. The part that seems strange to me is that Ben and most of the others for that matter know every detail of Locke's life. This seems to imply that either they knew the plane would crash and had background info on all the passengers OR somehow Smokey is able to scan and record the memories of those it encounters.

They may have had Locke's dad for a while too.....enough time to get alot of info about Locke.

I wonder why Ben doesn't use the box to cure his back?

The box is a metaphore people. It's not an actual box. Ben was just making an analogy.

The island in which they live is the box. And it's strange properties allow people who are strong in the Force, so to speak, strong willed apparently, to be able to manifest whay they want like the Law of Attraction on hyperdrive. I've posted many threads about the LOA over the past couple season and it looks like I'm in the ballpark.

I agree the box is a methphore, but who is manifesting the Law of Attraction on hyperdrive? I don't understand this part of your post.

I wonder why Ben doesn't use the box to cure his back?

He can't, which is why he is so enthralled with Locke. Saying that he has an obvious connection to the island.

I think that the "box" is purely theoretical, just a visual used to get his point across to Locke, but I am beginning to believe that this is how they got all the information they have on the Losties. By simply wishing for it. If you noticed in the series opener, Ben seemed surprised by the impending crash of the plane.

So we have seen Kate's horse, Jack's Dad, Sayid's cat, and Sawyer's.... dirty magazines? :o I mean really, who travels with stacks of Playboy's? :rolleyes: Oh, there was also Desmond's Rum. It struck me back then how that was too much of a coincedence the exact same brand of rum would be found on the island to begin with.

Desmond's time-travel/flashback may have been a "wish" as well. I still think that it is possible that these wishes being granted are really a result of some sort of mind control (Matrix-Like maybe?) as opposed to the island really being a wishing well.

So we have seen Kate's horse, Jack's Dad, Sayid's cat, and Sawyer's.... dirty magazines? :o I mean really, who travels with stacks of Playboy's? :rolleyes: Oh, there was also Desmond's Rum. It struck me back then how that was too much of a coincedence the exact same brand of rum would be found on the island to begin with.

Maybe Desmond had some bottles on his sailboat and offloaded them before Sayid, Jin and Sun went off to hand it over to the Others try to rescue Jack and co?

He can't, which is why he is so enthralled with Locke. Saying that he has an obvious connection to the island.

I think that the "box" is purely theoretical, just a visual used to get his point across to Locke, but I am beginning to believe that this is how they got all the information they have on the Losties. By simply wishing for it. If you noticed in the series opener, Ben seemed surprised by the impending crash of the plane.

So we have seen Kate's horse, Jack's Dad, Sayid's cat, and Sawyer's.... dirty magazines? :o I mean really, who travels with stacks of Playboy's? :rolleyes: Oh, there was also Desmond's Rum. It struck me back then how that was too much of a coincedence the exact same brand of rum would be found on the island to begin with.


I don't yet believe that it was actually Cooper, bound and gagged in that room. I believe it was Cerberus. Just it was Yemi and Christian and Walt and Kate's horse ... but not Sayid's cat. if you look at the pictures, it was clearly a different cat. The same breed maybe, but the two cats looked nothing alike.

First off, last night's episode was the best of the season and close to being the best of the series but I wanted to add my thoughts on what was already a great thread. I really hope this "box" if it turns out to be an actual box has a real world explanation. I feel that TPTB have done a great job of rooting this story in realistic science explanation. I tend to think that it's a metaphor but if it is a box I hope it's not a copout and Locke and others don't magically will themselves a way off the island to end the series.

1. I think last night's development with Cooper being on the island definitely demonstrates that the Others have a need for the plane crash survivors. If they are able to get something from Lockes past then they are able to get anything to make them do what they want. I'm beginning to think that Smokey is being controlled by the others what with Jacks dad and Kates horse that Smokey is being used by the Others to control their experience on the island.

2. Did anyone find Lockes reference to cheating a little strange? I feel that he treats this island experience like one of his wargames and that line made me believe it even more. Is he fighting a battle for the island against the others? Were those his instructions from Candle or what he saw when he looked into the eye of the island.

3. Is Ben really that interested in Locke's recovery? Or was that more manipulation on his part so that he would blow up the submarine, which as he stated gives him an excuse to tell his people instead of Ben being the scapegoat? I'm starting to ramble...

IF the magic box is actually a magic box, Lost has finally jumped the shark.

Although TPTB promised during season 1 that everything was grounded in reality, they finally realized they wrote themselves into so many cormers they had to create a "magic box" to help them dig their way out. This is similar to introducing time travel into the plot.

All we need now are aliens, clones and people coming back from the dead. Everything will eventually be explained by some ridiculosuly contrived device. Pathetic.

I think the island itself is the Box. The Others are there to study/learn to manipulate to their own advantage the odd manifestations that occur. Or to prevent another group from gaining access to these manifestations.

I agree.

There's another science-fiction box reference some of you may recognize. In the mid-1960s, Zenna Henderson wrote a short story called "The Anything Box," about a teacher who has a spooky little boy in her classroom, who's always looking into a little box. IIRC it's a portal to a whole other world.

In a sense, The Island is an "anything box" as well. But I don't think you get what you wish for - you get what you need. There's a substantial difference.

One: Cut a hole in a box.

Two: Put your dad in that box

Three: Make him open the box

Every single holiday - my dad in a box!

...I read through this thread just to see if someone had referenced that....good work!

Maybe the box is a portal to the "real world" that only Ben and few other Others know about? I mean if Desmond can time travel, why can't there be a transporting doorway? That would explain Locke's dad's fresh horror- Alpert just went through the portal to beat the stuffing out of him and haul him back to the island.

"According to the myth, Pandora opened a container releasing all the evils of mankind—greed, vanity, slander, envy, pining—leaving only hope inside once she had closed it again" (From Wiki)

I think the Island having it or being the Pandora's Box could also be connected to the four toes statue as a reference to the greek mythology. I remember TPTB saying at the end of season 2 that the Island could have a very ancient history, with an ancient people living on it. OK..what if these people were there protecting the Box ? Some believes that the references regarding a tsunami striking the Island (like the picture inside the Swan ) could be the reason for their extinction. Or maybe a few still alive, like Ben ??

peace

When Ben talked of magic box, he was just being cute with his use of language. He didn't want to spoil the shock and suprise for Locke by saying "I have your father tied up in a dank room". That's about it as far as a "magic box" is concerned.

Is the box the reason why all the things having "mysteriously" shown up on the island? Did 'the box' materialize Jack's dad, Ecko's brother and Kate's horse?

Was Claire thinking about birds and the box made them appear on the previous episode?

If so, then why does it pick and choose? Why aren't all sorts of things popping up all over, as people wish and hope and dream?

He can't, which is why he is so enthralled with Locke. Saying that he has an obvious connection to the island.

I think that the "box" is purely theoretical, just a visual used to get his point across to Locke, but I am beginning to believe that this is how they got all the information they have on the Losties. By simply wishing for it. If you noticed in the series opener, Ben seemed surprised by the impending crash of the plane.

So we have seen Kate's horse, Jack's Dad, Sayid's cat, and Sawyer's.... dirty magazines? :o I mean really, who travels with stacks of Playboy's? :rolleyes: Oh, there was also Desmond's Rum. It struck me back then how that was too much of a coincedence the exact same brand of rum would be found on the island to begin with.

Exactly!!! He cant get the island to grant his request of helping him...That is why he needs Locke.

I am not so sure it is theoretical, I think there is "something", maybe not a box per se but there is something locked up that Locke has unlocked...

LOCKE HAS UNLOCKED THE LOCKED BOX

I dont think that the box has mad up the playboys...but I like the idea tht smokie is in the box...

mr_find is right, I'm quite sure there isn't an acutal "box", at least in the physical sense. Ben even says "let me put it so you can understand.."

But, the question remains: how did Cooper get to the Island?? All possible explanations can be grouped into two categories:

1) He arrived by conventional means; ie Alpert went out to Mexico or wherever and grabbed him.

2) He arrived by unconventional means; he was teleported there, he is a "copy" of the real Cooper, he isn't even real and is in fact a shared hallucination, he is actually Smokey, etc.

Another question is, when Ben was talking about this "box" containing whatever someone wants, was he just referring to this one particular case, with Locke, because they happened to have Cooper?? Or is the "box" an actual thing that can function repeatedly, and for multiple people??

Sorry, I'm not sure if this last paragraph is clear or not.

i think this "box" manifests things from peoples minds and only those people with the special attunement of the island somewhat like smokey but i think sometime when locke was on the island he made his father appear in the room and thats how the others knew he was so special...

I think that's exactly what happened. Locke made his dad appear becase that's the 'thing' Lock wants most.

Can I just say how much I HATE HATE HATE HATE HATE it when threads are merged?

Someplace in this now 12 page behemoth is the 2 page thread I had a response to. So now this is in my User CP and it is of no value whatsoever. Thanks bunches.

I thought this mirrored the scene in season 1 when Locke told Charlie "the island will give you what you want, but you have to give the island something back". Locke knew the guitar was there, but kind of misled Charlie about the whole thing. I think Cooper was already there (remember the detective saying "he fled to Mexico, he could be anywhere in the world by now") and had been for some time, before Locke even crashed there.

DON'T MISTAKE COINCIDENCE FOR FATE.

mr_find is right....

Another question is, when Ben was talking about this "box" containing whatever someone wants, was he just referring to this one particular case, with Locke, because they happened to have Cooper?? Or is the "box" an actual thing that can function repeatedly, and for multiple people??

In regard to your first point, but of course. :biggrin:

As for the box, I am leaning toward he was merely being fancy with his use of words, describing the room a "magical box" because he was just, as you succinctly put it, "referring to this one particular case, with Locke, because they happened to have Cooper".

I agree. I hate thread merges. Can anyone merge threads or does it have to be a moderator? There should be some restrictions on who can do a merge.

I agree. I hate thread merges. Can anyone merge threads or does it have to be a moderator? There should be some restrictions on who can do a merge.

Only a moderator can merge threads. Sometimes they get trigger-happy with merges, deletes and moves, and sometimes they do not. I sympathize with sheba. I rarely venture on to monster-sized threads like the one we are on now, and I like the option of having a similar, but much smaller, thread to jump on to.

Remember in Season One when Locke met the "Smog Monster"? :biggrin: I wonder if that's when Locke's Dad popped into "the box"!!! :eek2:

Perhaps the box and/or the island is linked to the individuals ability for imagination, which most adults have lost. However, John Locke has this childlike sensibility which makes him on 'the list' unlike the rest of the survivors. This would also explain why the Others took the children...perhaps Walt (amongst his other powers) has an extra vivid imagination. Maybe that is also implied in the title LOST, in that ...okay, maybe I'm going to far with that one.

I think the box was a metaphore for the room that cooper was held in.

When Ben said to Locke You can have the thing you want the most. He was specifically talking about what Locke really wanted, not what everyone wishes for.

I dont know if I'm explaining this right.

I really have no clue how to interpret this little tidbit. Some random thoughts.

Is there a real black box? Or is it a metaphor. Interesting to ponder. To psychologist B. F. Skinner, the mind was a "black box," in which nobody could peer. In other words, Skinner's school of thought held that only phenomena that could be directly observable (behaviors) were worthy of scientific study. The black box would be a metaphor for the mind.

Cooper (if Cooper is really Locke's father--I think he is, but we are only one twist away from finding out he isn't) could have been brought to the island for study once the Others learned of Locke's special relationship with the island (much in the same way the Others took blood from Michael while asking if he was the biological father of the special Walt).

Towards the idea that Cooper (and all the other strange sightings) are manifestations of the island\smokey, who is to say that Locke's psyche created him? Wouldn't it be a rather nice twist if Sawyer, marooned on an island and unable to exact revenge on the man who ruined his family, created Cooper on the island? In this scenario, he wouldn't know Cooper was the real Sawyer, but the island would. The Others could have just found him in the woods like Kate's horse, and interrogated him. This idea, admittedly, is far-fetched.

This brings up some other ideas, but I think I'm going over the edge at this point. Lost does that to me. Provides a few facts and allows me to sit back and draw my own confusions.

I love this show.

I think the box was Ben's way of not answering Locke, kinda like the two giant hamsters in the basement on wheels generating electricity. We certainly can't believe theres a magic box on the island that creates whatever the user wants, can we??

Although you all realize this is the definition of a Hieronymous box??? (http://www.lifetechnology.org/hieronymus.htm)

The box contains a part of Smokey. We already know that Smokey scans thoughts (Eko) and that it can manifest as a human being to whom one has an emotional connection (Eko again). That was the implication of "You speak to me as if I were your brother"--and I've been waiting for it to play out ever since! Yay!

The box manifested Cooper to Locke because Cooper was literally Locke's heart's desire. He kept going back to him as it became increasingly illogical and dangerous to do so, just because he couldn't keep away. He was drawn to Cooper. Cooper is at the core of Locke's mental and emotional life, so Cooper was in the box. (Also, I think it's now pretty much confirmed that Cooper is The Real Sawyer--he worked his way up over his lifetime from a trailer-park working-class woman to one with a $200-million fortune, but his MO remained the same.)

I'm now wondering if Walt's "room" was the "anything box" rather than the "Clockwork Orange room." One could learn a lot about a test subject by watching what he manifests in the box.

The big implication of last night's reveal was that the Others have some limited control over Smokey or some part of Smokey. But Ben wants Locke because he realizes Locke is more attuned to Smokey than anyone else.

Oh, and Smokey is nanites. So there's STILL a scientific explanation. Although it hasn't been explained why Smokey/that part of Smokey would stay in the box or would be compelled to stay in the box to manifest whenever anyone opens the door.

LOVED last night's episode! Embrace the shark!

To psychologist B. F. Skinner, the mind was a "black box," in which nobody could peer.

Let's not forget about the "Skinner Box" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skinner_box -- and if the Island is a Skinner Box, does that make fishbiscuits out of Christian, Dave, the horse, the cat, Walt and Cooper?

The part that seems strange to me is that Ben and most of the others for that matter know every detail of Locke's life. This seems to imply that either they knew the plane would crash and had background info on all the passengers OR somehow Smokey is able to scan and record the memories of those it encounters.

OR the Others used their communication with the outside world (prior to the hatch im/explosion) to gather information on the Losties after they crashed on the island.

with all of the discussion about lockes father, i thought i would butt in, and say...

iv been waiting for some more backstory on anthony cooper, and i think i picked a good username almost a year ago

I think the box was Ben's way of not answering Locke, kinda like the two giant hamsters in the basement on wheels generating electricity. We certainly can't believe theres a magic box on the island that creates whatever the user wants, can we??

Although you all realize this is the definition of a Hieronymous box??? (http://www.lifetechnology.org/hieronymus.htm)


The idea of a hieronymous box is a good one, and I think on the right track. I don't
think that there's necessarily a real, physical box on the island. That was a metaphor.
However, there is something on the island that I don't think The Others understand
very well which behaves as Ben's metaphorical box does.


A 'black box' is a device (or algorithm, etc.) whose inner workings are not understood by
the user. An input produces an output for reasons not known to the user. I think Ben's
box is similar. I think there is something unique about the island that causes things
to happen and whatever this is, it predates modern history. Ben is referring to this as
a 'magic box' as a metaphor, but also because he himself still doesn't understand it or
possibly even control it. It has some mystical quality to it. That doesn't mean it is
magic, but it behaves as magic within the current understanding of human technology.
That doesn't mean it is literally a 'box' (room, crypt, whatever) or even that it has a
physical location. It's a metaphor to describe a phenomenon. One could say that Jack
fell out of the box, for instance, when Ben needed a surgeon. I think someone alluded
to Hurley starting the van. That could be something that came 'out of the box'. In
summary, I think that unusual events occur on the island (no duh!) and that many
have sought a scientific explanation for these events.


In the past, perhaps ancient cultures regarded the island as sacred or 'magic'. This might
be the crux of the conflict between faith and science, with some inclined to think 'the box'
is mystical and others trying to find an explanation (for both scientific and possibly
political reasons, as that would be a powerful thing to understand). It would be like a team
of researchers stumbling across the gates of heaven. Some would say that it's not
heaven at all if it's physical, the pious would discourage science from investigating the
nature of heaven, scientists would want to research and explain it, and governments
would seek to benefit from it, no matter the reality.


So, while I doubt that the box is in actuality a box-like object, I think it is real and
Ben was using the concept of a 'magic box' as a metaphor for whatever phenomenon
(physical, mental, mystical, or whatever) exists on the island and I think the writers
want us to believe (from the choice of words used and his statement that he is in fear of
losing control of his people) that he doesn't really understand it and that Locke might
be a person who can further his understanding.

And as far as that goes, I believe the holding cell held the one thing that Locke most certainly didn't want. I think that Ben was right about Locke blowing up the sub to prevent his father from ever entering his life again. That was Locke's biggest fear. ( Although in that scene, Cooper seemed to be the frighten one. :biggrin: )

I think that Locke's biggest fear is having his father manipulate and hurt him again. Locke is obsessed with his father. To the point where he chooses his father over the love of his life. I agree that Ben was right when he said that Locke doesn't want his father in his life again. But not b/c Locke is afraid of his father, but b/c Locke fears being hurt and having his life destroyed by his father again.

Now all of a sudden, Locke is in control. The powerless he felt with his father no longer existsi b/c in front of him is his father in way Locke probably always fantasized him to be: weak, scared, helpless, tied to a chair, not in control, and totally powerless.

Although you all realize this is the definition of a Hieronymous box??? (http://www.lifetechnology.org/hieronymus.htm)diabolo, that is fabulous! :24: As quacky as that machine seems, I remember reading about a theory in my physics class where you could do something to a particle of some sort (can't recall if it was an atom, electron, or something else), and miles away it would affect another particle. Will that machine give you 'strenth, health, or career success'? Probably not, but interesting science nonetheless (or should I say psuedoscience?).



I'm with the 'Magic Box as a metaphor' argument. There's not a magic box, but there's . . . . something . . . on the island - something that makes things happen.

Ben says the box gives you whatever you want, but clearly, Locke didn't WANT his father. And if the "box" is responsible for all these apparitions, then it's giving people the thing that is eating away at them - Eko's brother (guilt for his death), Kate's horse (need for freedom?), Jack's dad (unresolved daddy issues), Hurley's Dave (unsure whether he's still crazy), and maybe Sawyer's boar (holding on to revenge). If the box manifests things you need resolution on, then you could argue it gives you what you want - if you want resolution.

Otherwise, that "anything you wish" line from Ben is a load of bull, and another con.

beachcomberjim might be on to something - the Others have had 70+ days to get Anthony Cooper to the island. Why would they want to do that? Because as Ben said, he's still sick, Locke isn't. He'd want to have something to manipulate Locke with, and what better than the cause of all his problems. If Ben could help Locke solve his daddy issues, he might just find favor with the Island's Favored Son.

Maybe the box is a person?

I think you are correct Night (the person is the "Key").

Is it an illusion? Is it real? Is it big enough to imagine a new submarine?

Is John's love for this island more than Ben's? Can this box really exsist?

Im sure someone already said this, but Benry said "Let me put this in a way you can understand. There's this box...." Obviously a metaphor.

Did anyone watch Felicity (J.J.'s great college show)? Anyone remember the episode in the second season called, "Help for the Lovelorn"? We found out in this episode what Megan (Felicity's roommate) kept in her mysterious black box she always carried. It was a very unFelicity like episode where the show paid homage to the Twlight Zone. All though I don't think Megan's box on Felicity is the same as the box we just heard about from Ben, I think if you go back and watch or read about that Felicity episode you will see similar themes being brought up that are also addressed in Lost. I think it is so cool how all of J.J.'s shows have had connections so far (I.E. Felicity, Alias & Lost).

Let's not forget that in '3 Minutes' in Season 2, Ms. Klugh threatened to put Walt "back in the room again" if he didn't behave himself while talking with Michael.... apparently Walt manifested or saw something inside this "room" that scared the hell out of him.... scared enough to make him be quiet when she mentioned putting him back in there. I previously thought this "room" she referred to was the Room 23 with the brainwashing video, but perhaps it was this one??

THe "Box" is nothing more than a way for Ben to unlock Locke. Locke is entised by mysteries and the theory behind the "box" as Ben described was an Evil trick. Locke was given the insentive for Smokie to form up as Locke's dad. Smokie was a brother in Priest form. The problem now is how many twists and turns will TPTB make to provide us with the answers to this new plot.

i keep seeing complaints about lost introducing a magic box....
c'mon people, lets pay attention, ben was using basic terms to explain things to locke...
"you know all about boxes, dont you john?"

who knows what it could be, but it isnt a damn box....

i just had to get that out....great episode last night.....it's like watching the first season all over....u just dont know what's gonna happen next!!

Here here....its almost as if everybody forgot what show they were watching.

You're right. Ben was using a metaphor.

I almost wish Cooper was the founder of the Others (and even Ben's biological or adoptive Dad), because the more we learn about the Others, the more they seem to be a sort of cult manipulated by master con artists.

Cardie

you know i never really picked up on that. I just thought maybe there is a "box" out there but it makes so much sense that the "box" is simply something symbolic that John can instantly relate to. I think, and I know most do, that this box is no box at all but simply a cloud of smoke that can render three dimensional, tangible images from one's mind.

So if that is the case, is that really Cooper, or a 3 dimensional simulation of Cooper that is developed to test John Locke's goodness? If it can read John's mind it can simulate a lot of who this person is but that would mean that this is NOT Cooper. Thoughts...?

I agree, but I think Ben was telling the truth about the underground labs and giant hamsters.

I'm inclined to believe that was the real Cooper.

I concur. Otherwise, I'd be REALLY dissappointed in the writer's creativity. I mean, my 2 year old niece can make 'magic stuff' come out of a box....

you know i never really picked up on that. I just thought maybe there is a "box" out there but it makes so much sense that the "box" is simply something symbolic that John can instantly relate to. I think, and I know most do, that this box is no box at all but simply a cloud of smoke that can render three dimensional, tangible images from one's mind.

So if that is the case, is that really Cooper, or a 3 dimensional simulation of Cooper that is developed to test John Locke's goodness? If it can read John's mind it can simulate a lot of who this person is but that would mean that this is NOT Cooper. Thoughts...?


i didnt even think it could be smokey (or something similar to). i gotta think that it could be that...but i REALLY am hoping that they got the real Cooper...that would just be too good!! the questioin of if it is the real Cooper is whether he was already on the island or did they get him to just to "reward" Locke

You're right. Ben was using a metaphor.

I also think it was just a metaphore for the room that his dad was held in.

That box/room had what John really wanted.

It's just the way Ben speaks.

Just listen to what he promised to Jack, specifically how he phrased it. "I'll let your friends leave as soon as YOU are off the island" knowing full well by then that Jack wasnt going anywhere because Locke was on his way to blowing up the sub.

you know i never really picked up on that. I just thought maybe there is a "box" out there but it makes so much sense that the "box" is simply something symbolic that John can instantly relate to. I think, and I know most do, that this box is no box at all but simply a cloud of smoke that can render three dimensional, tangible images from one's mind.

So if that is the case, is that really Cooper, or a 3 dimensional simulation of Cooper that is developed to test John Locke's goodness? If it can read John's mind it can simulate a lot of who this person is but that would mean that this is NOT Cooper. Thoughts...?


I thought afterwards that this is some sort of test for Locke to see if he is still flawed and therefore unable to understand what is going on with the island. After last weeks episode, I thought it ironic that Locke was flawed before he came to the island, then became whole again after the crash as he accepted the island and everything that came with it. Then after the incident with the hatch implosion, he lost his faith and became angry and flawed again. Now are we going the other way on the John Locke teeter-totter of emotions? Tune in next week and find out!!! <------SEE!!! TPTB SHOULD HIRE ME FOR MY WONDERFUL PROMOTIONAL SKILLS!

I think that "The Box" is a metaphor for Smokey.

i didnt even think it could be smokey (or something similar to). i gotta think that it could be that...but i REALLY am hoping that they got the real Cooper...that would just be too good!! the questioin of if it is the real Cooper is whether he was already on the island or did they get him to just to "reward" Locke


Ahhhh, but reward him for what though?

I agree i'm sceptical about it being an actual box. More likely a metaphor. But i think Ben was right in that he said Locke had a communion with the island that Ben could not understand. I think he realised this this when Locke's dad shows up on the island through whatever means got him there be it the "box" or anything else. And i think Ben could not understand how Cooper came to be on the island until Locke showed up. Locke is maybe a more powerful man than Ben.

Ahhhh, but reward him for what though?

remember Ben said that he would give anything to think of a way to keep Jack and Juliet from leaving and then Locke came strollin out of the woods...etc

ben basically thanked John for his help on it, so Ben served him up a heapin plate of "you're a special guy john, oh and here's the guy who screwed you over multiple times and tried to kill you",

so, whats john gonna do next?? i just hope we dont have to wait until next season to find out.

An actual box would be far too literal, but I do think that there is something about the island that taps into what people want, need, or obsess about the most. It made me think about Kate's horse coming to her and Jack's dad leading him to the casket and the water.

I might be willing to buy into the Smokey connection. It seems logical right now, although I can't get my tiny brain around how that would acutally work. Lucky for us all the only task on my plate is to sit back back and enjoy the rest of the season. I'll let the writers and producers do the hard stuff!

remember Ben said that he would give anything to think of a way to keep Jack and Juliet from leaving and then Locke came strollin out of the woods...etc

ben basically thanked John for his help on it, so Ben served him up a heapin plate of "you're a special guy john, oh and here's the guy who screwed you over multiple times and tried to kill you",

so, whats john gonna do next?? i just hope we dont have to wait until next season to find out.

John will pull out his suitcase o' knives and go to work on Cooper, Sayid style.

The scene will be eerily reminiscent of this:
"Im gonna go to work on homeboy here with a pair of pliers and blowtorch. You hear me hillbilly boy? I aint even started on yo' ___ yet...Im about to get medieval..." I think you get the picture.

I spose as smokey does see images of the Losties past that encounter it. It may be possiuble that it sees their secrets or fears and makes them a reality by extracting them from the outside world or shape shifting into them

I spose as smokey does see images of the Losties past that encounter it. It may be possiuble that it sees their secrets or fears and makes them a reality by extracting them from the outside world or shape shifting into them


Wrong show brosef...you are thinking of Heroes.

To me it was clear that the box was the submarine!

Ben was born in the island, probably never left it. The submarine is what made his dreams come true. It was the link to civilization, what literally brought everything they needed, including the recruited people. And it related directly to the arrival of Anthony Cooper, as how could he have arrived otherwise? In that case, however, the "box" brought Locke's worst nightmare. Or maybe that's what Locke really wanted? What if Locke is driven by revenge? What kind of person would he become if he chose to act out of vengeance?

I think that Smokey manufactures things that people see, but doesn't actually take the form of him. Otherwise, how would Hurley have HELD the slipper in his hand? He would be HOLDING Smokey. That would also mean that Smokey would be able to split in two, because the slipper is separated from Dave.

To me it was clear that the box was the submarine!

Ben was born in the island, probably never left it. The submarine is what made his dreams come true. It was the link to civilization, what literally brought everything they needed, including the recruited people. And it related directly to the arrival of Anthony Cooper, as how could he have arrived otherwise? In that case, however, the "box" brought Locke's worst nightmare. Or maybe that's what Locke really wanted? What if Locke is driven by revenge? What kind of person would he become if he chose to act out of vengeance?

Then why would Benry allow Locke to destroy the box if its what made his dreams come true?

Wrong show brosef...you are thinking of Heroes.

I think we were suppose to assume Smokey is able to take the form of things plucked from memory after T23rdP & TCOL

Smokey is "The Box" in a way...

Dude, why did that thread get moved into this madness? We were moving right through a good conversation based on the show, not people's speculation about what the box is. There is no box as stated by Benry, so I guess Im a little confused as to why it was lumped in here.

Lenny: Well, you shouldn't have done that. You've opened the box!

So, maybe ol' Lenny wasn't referring to Pandora's box at all, but this box that Benry was talking about. Maybe he really did create his own luck...

I think he was referring to Calvin's Transmogrifier/Duplicator box. The same box that when you turn it over, it becomes a flying time machine.

So, maybe ol' Lenny wasn't referring to Pandora's box at all, but this box that Benry was talking about. Maybe he really did create his own luck...

I was thinking this same thing.

I also wondered if this magic box needs to sap Hurley's good luck to power itself. :redface:

i didnt really understand it much. i thought it was kind of representing something, not a literal thing on the island...but sorry if i didnt understand. ill have to rewatch it to see if it makes more sense to me :)

I think he was referring to Calvin's Transmogrifier/Duplicator box. The same box that when you turn it over, it becomes a flying time machine.


hahhah, i love calvin and hobbes!

i could be completely wrong, as i first thought ben was making up the story about the magic box, but then i remembered that apparently fake hatch that the others had at the fake camp they took michael too. in the finale sayid arrives there and opens it and there is nothing, just a small carve out in the rock, not even deep enough to be a cave. the symbol in the center of the dharma symbol on this hatch is a simple rectangle, or box, if you will. i always remembered that since it was so much simpler than any other dharma symbol we've seen like the swan, the flame, etc.
could this be THE BOX and maybe there was nothing in it when sayid opened because he's not on the list?

i didnt really understand it much. i thought it was kind of representing something, not a literal thing on the island...

I don't think they meant anything literal either. I think it's a metaphorical box.

I also think that Hurley's bad luck was caused by his fear. If he was tapping into whatever power "the box" had (and I don't think it's a literal box), I think it created bad luck for him because he EXPECTED bad luck. Assuming this "box" had anything to do with it.......

It's most definitely a metaphor. It's some kind of wish fulfillment deal. Kinda like when a guy needs an operation on his cancer ridden spine and a flippin' spinal surgeon falls out of the sky.

I thought about this too. I'm really inclined to believe the "box" was just a metaphor for the power of the island, but that symbol popped in my head too. Also, assuming that the Christian Shepperd that Jack saw on the island was a manifestation of the box, we can't correlate being on the list with having access to it's power, as Jack is not on the list. I like to take things at face value on here until we have reason to doubt, and when the Other's themselves described it as a decoy village (maybe not exact wording, but something to the effect that it was merely for show) I assumed it was just that. Ok, now I'm thinking they could have constructed their decoy village around the door. Maybe they know it's power, but can't access it directly. Maybe the door is merely a focal point for the island's powers. You don't need the door, but maybe it helps people that are capable of accessing it visualize their "wish". Damn, you really got me thinking now, and I have about a dozen conflicting theories........

So, did this "box" really manifest/transport Locke's Dad? I came away thinking the Others already had his Dad for some reason, and Ben was just playing mind games with Locke. I guess I need to go back and watch it again to understand it better.

I also think that Hurley's bad luck was caused by his fear. If he was tapping into whatever power "the box" had (and I don't think it's a literal box), I think it created bad luck for him because he EXPECTED bad luck. Assuming this "box" had anything to do with it.......

The "box" thing is interesting because it Could be used as a way to explain Hurley's curse... if it can work off-island. Maybe it can work off-island and that's what Juliet's ex getting hit by a bus was all about.

It's most definitely a metaphor. It's some kind of wish fulfillment deal. Kinda like when a guy needs an operation on his cancer ridden spine and a flippin' spinal surgeon falls out of the sky.

And I bet it goes all the way back to Walt rolling whatever he wanted in backgammon also... he used to try very hard to get the correct numbers and would get them every time.

You're not alone: I thought of that door and that Dharma box logo as well: I don't think it was just "set design" for the Others, a fake hatch. It makes some sense that they brought Walt there, as opposed to their barracks: if Walt is "special" and the box is so special, there was something for them to learn from putting them them together.

The "box" thing is interesting because it Could be used as a way to explain Hurley's curse... if it can work off-island. Maybe it can work off-island and that's what Juliet's ex getting hit by a bus was all about.



And I bet it goes all the way back to Walt rolling whatever he wanted in backgammon also... he used to try very hard to get the correct numbers and would get them every time.

Without question. And if that doesn't serve as proof the writers have known what the dealy-yo-yo is from day one, I don't know what is.

OR...the others needed a fake camp, did some wishin' and the box provided it - the fake camp was a manifestation of what the box created - and perhaps the box cannot direct WHERE what it creates goes, so the fake camp it created stayed right there.

Then why would Benry allow Locke to destroy the box if its what made his dreams come true?

Because for him it was more important that JAck and Juliette shouldn't leave. That would undermine the "commitment" and therefore undermine his strength as a leader. He wants to keep his way of life. Allowing Locke to blow up the submarine was the lesser of two evils.

What comes out of the box? Anthony Cooper. Is it far-fetched to believe that the box is nothing else than the submarine?

What has Locke always wanted? A father. What was Ben holding in a room? Cowboy Lockes Daddy. Ben used a metaphor about a magic box holding what Locke really wanted to manipulate Locke. Ain't no real magic box here just a room with a daddy. Ben loves taking the manipulative long way around to accomplish what he wants. Alex flat out told us Ben was manipulating Locke with his stories(metaphors) and that's what he (Ben) does.

Ben is obsessed with manipulation and I think that will prove to be his downfall before this is all over.

You're not alone: I thought of that door and that Dharma box logo as well: I don't think it was just "set design" for the Others, a fake hatch. It makes some sense that they brought Walt there, as opposed to their barracks: if Walt is "special" and the box is so special, there was something for them to learn from putting them them together.

Didn't they just bring Walt there because they didn't want Michael seeing where they really live/work?

Questions like these can be answered in 2 seconds by just watching episode again or remembering what Ben said

He clearly labeled it as a metaphor by saying Im gonna put in this in a way you can understand so you can picture it.----he said "picture it". He used "box" because of the reason he said..John worked at a box company. If John worked building houses...Ben would have said "picture a big house".

I mean this isnt even up for consideration guys unless language on Lost doesnt mean what it says

Something like the movie "Sphere" where your dreams/thoughts manifest themselves?

I mean this isnt even up for consideration guys unless language on Lost doesnt mean what it says

That's sort of a recurring theme on LOST though....

Jack's tat says one thing but "that's not what it means." ;)

I find a lot of the dialogue on this show to have many different meanings --- and the meanings are often strikingly different from the literal words themselves. :undecide:

Because for him it was more important that JAck and Juliette shouldn't leave. That would undermine the "commitment" and therefore undermine his strength as a leader. He wants to keep his way of life. Allowing Locke to blow up the submarine was the lesser of two evils.

What comes out of the box? Anthony Cooper. Is it far-fetched to believe that the box is nothing else than the submarine?


No, but it is far-fetched to believe that the box exists in the first place because Benry specifically stated that there is no box. He just was providing information in a way that Locke could understand, at least that's what Benry said.
100%
Questions like these can be answered in 2 seconds by just watching episode again or remembering what Ben said

He clearly labeled it as a metaphor by saying Im gonna put in this in a way you can understand so you can picture it.----he said "picture it". He used "box" because of the reason he said..John worked at a box company. If John worked building houses...Ben would have said "picture a big house".

I mean this isnt even up for consideration guys unless language on Lost doesnt mean what it says

Thanks, Ive been trying to explain this but most people dont seem to be catching on. Perhaps if one were to actually watch and listen to the show as opposed to searching the background for easter eggs.

John Burger, HoardingHurley81 - you guys are obvoiusly correct that there isn't an actual "box", not literally. But, that doesn't really change the question: Are the circumstances surrounding Cooper's presence on the Island normal?? Is it simply the real Cooper, who was just brought to the island?? Or are the circumstances "abnormal": Is it really Smokey?? Was Cooper teleported to the Island?? Is Cooper actually some other kind of non-Smokey shared hallucination???

This is the real question.

John Burger, HoardingHurley81 - you guys are obvoiusly correct that there isn't an actual "box", not literally. But, that doesn't really change the question: Are the circumstances surrounding Cooper's presence on the Island normal?? Is it simply the real Cooper, who was just brought to the island?? Or are the circumstances "abnormal": Is it really Smokey?? Was Cooper teleported to the Island?? Is Cooper actually some other kind of non-Smokey shared hallucination???

This is the real question.


Based on what we have seen previously throughout the show, right now my guess would be that Cooper is a manifestation of Smokey. However, I have no friggin clue as to where TPTB will take this next, so anything I have to add is pure speculation. But once again, using the evidence we already have leads to a logical conclusion. I just assume that there is more to it and next week we could "Jump The Shark" again. Either way, its gonna be fun.

Based on what we have seen previously throughout the show, right now my guess would be that Cooper is a manifestation of Smokey. I don't think that really fits...

Smokey has never been seen under direct control of the Others. That isn't to say it's not possible, but to have Smokey just hanging out in the barrel room of the Others' camp is a far cry from the "jungle security system" we've seen before. There's also been no indication Smokey's visions are seen by other people. Eko's confrontation with Yemi is the clearest indication of Smokey's "manifestation" powers, but all we know for sure is what Eko himself saw.

I think Cooper showed up on the island the same way Jack did. Accidentally. But perhaps the island "brought" him in response to the wishes of an island resident. For instance, Ben wanted a spinal surgeon and he got one. Locke (or maybe Sawyer?) wanted Cooper, so here he ended up...

For instance, maybe Cooper was trying to con millionaire Henry Gale, and went