Did Locke Really Blow up the sub?? [Archive] - { Flicks N Shows | Fringe Division

rabidranger

03-22-2007, 02:05 AM

We know why Ben wanted Locke to blow up the sub: Ben was stuck between a rock and a hard place. He promised Jack and Juliet could go home if they met certain conditions, but to the Others, letting them go under any circumstances would be a sign of weakness, and destroy his power base. If Ben killed Jack, that would also destroy his power base because the Others knew he made a promise. So, Ben (at least in his mind) comes up with the perfect solution: Let Locke destroy the sub as that would prevent Jack and Juliet from leaving, and he wouldn't have to kill them.

The kicker is, Locke was on to Ben from the start and knew that's what he wanted him to do. It looks like Locke blew up the sub, and he would have a valid reason (in his own mind) to do so: Destroying the sub prevents anyone from coming to or leaving the Island, thus preserving his new found lease on life. However, I wouldn't be surprised if Locke only made it appear to look that way. Locke has the upper hand on Ben, and it's going to be interesting to see who blinks first.

lostnthesoutheast

03-22-2007, 02:11 AM

What would you have him say to Jack in front of everyone? "pssssst.....Jack...I didn't really blow up the sub" ?? Of course his "I'm sorry" was insincere.

Uhh, how about " hey, Jack, there you are . Are you okay, man? I've been looking everywere for you." BOOM "OMG, what just happened. I hope nobody was on that thing...."

You get the picture. :biggrin:

Sometimes a spade is just a spade.

The Ringo

03-22-2007, 02:16 AM

Locke was on to Ben from the start and knew that's what he wanted him to do. It looks like Locke blew up the sub, and he would have a valid reason (in his own mind) to do so: Destroying the sub prevents anyone from coming to or leaving the Island, thus preserving his new found lease on life. However, I wouldn't be surprised if Locke only made it appear to look that way. Locke has the upper hand on Ben, and it's going to be interesting to see who blinks first.

That's an excellent point. Locke did know that Ben was trying to manipulate him into blowing up the sub (as per their discussion when Locke was still handcuffed to the pipe). That would be one kick @ss scene if it's revealed as such.

lostgurl

03-22-2007, 02:19 AM

I think he really blew it up. If you put a bomb in a submarine, in the water, and you're standing anywhere near it, you're going to get wet- it's blowing up IN the water. Was he wet before the sub exploded?

The Ringo

03-22-2007, 02:21 AM

Was he wet before the sub exploded?

Yes, from the moment they showed him on the dock (before he encountered Jack) and before the explosion.

eddien

03-22-2007, 02:35 AM

also, it answers the question as to why locke had to blow up the flame as the flame was able to communicate with the sub. no flame, the others can't know where the sub is.

johnnywishbone

03-22-2007, 02:45 AM

i just don't see what else he possibly could have blown up.

Still don't have an answer to why he was wet, but it would be pretty hard to cover up..... pieces of it floating in the water and washed up on shore......and whatever else he would of blown up would also have evidence along the same lines, so it wouldn't be long at all until someone figured it out.

maybe he shot himself out of a torpedo tube after setting the timers....you know, just for some fun, lol :laughing:

John Burger

03-22-2007, 02:48 AM

because he set the submarine adrift and blew up some other structure in the water.

and now he will KILL BEN!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RX5EMbYO-wY

did you make that video>:hypocrit:

Man..humor is one of the greatest gifts God gave us. I love stuff like that. Priceless.

On that note..is it me or is ben a crossdresser?

lockesmithe

03-22-2007, 02:49 AM

I'll have to watch that scene again. An interesting possibility. I don't see how, in the real world, one could be so close to the explosion and not know that a sub was just destroyed or not destroyed. Very possible that in the reality of television, Locke could have submerged the submarine and set off the explosion so that the Others would assume he sunk the sub. I didn't pick up on wet Locke at all. Perhaps this is why they filmed the scene at night (it looked good, but maybe it was easier to pull a pseudo-sinking off under the cover of night rather than having the audience believe that the Others, in broad daylight, didn't notice the sub wasn't blown up) and why they went through the trouble of having Locke inside the sub (sure it was cool, with him looking down the tube and exploring the sub, but it also could be looked upon as Locke's opportunity to submerge the submarine). I just don't know.

lostgurl

03-22-2007, 02:52 AM

Maybe it's the same error as in SIASL when Jack's shorts were suddenly wet when he hadn't been near the water. :rolleyes:
Maybe he took the sub away from the dock, and swam back before the c4 went off.

I have to rewatch that part because I totally missed it the first time around, my cable went out and I was on the phone with tech support. I wasn't a happy camper.

junior94

03-22-2007, 03:03 AM

Well if he DID really blow up the sub, oh boy are Jack and he gonna have some WORDS. lol
I was totally waiting for Jack just to literally jump all over him right after he said he was sorry. I mean just suddenly wanna beat the ever loving hell out of him. And ya know what, he'd deserve it! I mean I really hope it was a trick, because obviously I can understand Locke not wanting to leave the island, but unless I'm missing something, that was a monumental selfish move on his part (though true, we know that even if Jack got successfully home, he'd virtually NEVER be able to find the island again if he really were to bring back the cavalry to help)

Sarah-luvs-Dom

03-22-2007, 03:14 AM

why was locke soaking wet? subs are dry unless he somehow put in the outside and then what idk it was wierd

SpiderFace

03-22-2007, 03:37 AM

hmm, I didn't think anything was weird, but now you guys are starting to convince me! and wouldn't it be much less effective to place the C4 on the outer hull of the submarine? I would think it would work much better from the inside.

Danny-R

03-22-2007, 03:52 AM

I am absolutely sure...
many of you are thinking hard enough.
the boat was clearly on the LEFT of the END of the dock when he entered DRY.
the boat explosion was clearly RIGHT and a little ways out to sea when Locke walked back WET.
conclusion? he moved it out to detonate, then SWAM back.
HOWEVER. all suggestions regarding how he operated it, time span ("less than an hour") and WHY he would move it are still up for grabs and probably at this point completely unknowable.
kthxbye

honkyg

03-22-2007, 03:55 AM

ok, let's assume he moved the sub. where did he move it?

it would take him some time to move it where no one would see it right?

locke being all wet indicates that he was in the water, probably laying the C4 on the side of the sub.

there's nothing in locke's backstory that indicates he could drive a sub, let alone submerge it and leave it that way. i think it needs a crew to keep it submerged.....although Ben did say "it's not like there's a 'submerge' button"....i'm beginning to rethink it.

all logic points to him blowing it up. it fits in with his character of doing what other people have conned him into doing.

GGA1759

03-22-2007, 08:44 AM

Looked for this and didn't find it, so I hope it's not a double post.

When Locke went to the sub and went in it, he was dry.
When we see Locke walking on the pier he is soaking wet.
What did he really do?
I do not think Locke blew up the sub. Alex told him what he already knew, that Ben was a manipulator. Locke had been manipulated 4 years ago and wasn't going to take it anymore. Locke has the upper hand with Ben and Locke is using that to his advantage.

Thoughts?

lost12

03-22-2007, 08:52 AM

Why didn't Juliette have belongings w/her? Jack had a bag. John looks awfully soaked to just be sweating from the sub. He looked like he'd been in the water. You wouldn't have to be in the water, just place the c4 in the sub.

lostlocke

03-22-2007, 08:54 AM

May sound stupid but can explosives work in the water?! Perhaps Locke put one inside the submarine and one on the outside, underneath or on the side. I know you can't ignite something underwater, I'm not that dense!! However maybe if there was an ignition button that Locke had with him.

lost12

03-22-2007, 08:56 AM

explosives can work in the water

missioni

03-22-2007, 09:08 AM

As far as the moisture goes, I'm not sure if it was sweat or if there was a scene cut where Locke had to swim under the sub to plant the C4 or what.

wanders01

03-22-2007, 09:12 AM

I figured it was sweat because of the confined space in the sub and the air circulating system wouldn't be running yet as no one seemed to be on it.

piscescat

03-22-2007, 09:12 AM

He seemed too wet for just planting some explosives. Maybe there was a cut scene? Or maybe he washed off?

lostlocke

03-22-2007, 09:15 AM

I don't think Locke would sweat that much!! I mean his pants were dripping with sweat as well as his shirt, I've never seen anyone's legs sweat that much!! Like I said above I think he planted some explosives under or on the side of the sub, Lost12 thanks for answering my question. I wasn't sure if explosives would work in the water, but I thought they might.

Lost in Hoboken

03-22-2007, 09:16 AM

Seems to me he swam back from the sub. No idea why but he was too wet for just sweat. Perhaps he didn't know how long he had before his improvised explosive blew up so he dove into the water as soon as he got off the sub!

atom

03-22-2007, 09:16 AM

logically there would be no advantage from planting an explosive on the outside or the inside. Not to mention that judging by the explosion, it was an above water explosion. I like how the OP was thinking though, maybe Locke did do something clever.

Tundra_Ice_Cold6477

03-22-2007, 09:53 AM

did you make that video>:hypocrit:

Yep and I so hope it comes True!!

and as far as I am concerned, there were extra instructions from Marvin Candle in the Flame station video.

example: After he says, "if Hostiles have overrun this compound enter 77," the output is most likely "Thank you, extra security forces have been alerted, now go secure all transportation on and off the Island and rendezvous at the emergency safe point"

Locke is following DHARMA protocol........and it just might get everyone rescued.

lostgurl

03-22-2007, 09:57 AM

ok, let's assume he moved the sub. where did he move it?

it would take him some time to move it where no one would see it right?

We saw the explosion, so it wasn't that far away. If he did move it, he only moved it a short distance so that the dock wasn't destroyed.

lostlocke

03-22-2007, 09:59 AM

Definitely think the sub is gone. It's blown up. Locke has his motives for doing this, plus the writers are doing well with giving Jack yet another reason to scream at Locke!!
What else is new?!!

Kerstin80

03-22-2007, 10:15 AM

Interesting idea, one I didn't even consider.
I still think it's likely that he did, but there is one thing about it that really nags at me. Locke knew that Ben was playing him. He knew that Ben wanted him to destroy the sub. And while Locke has every reason not to want to leave the island, I just don't figure him for somebody who lets himself get played like that. Not after what happened to him, and not even if Ben actually wants the same thing that Locke wants.
So I can really buy the theory that he moved the sub instead of blowing it up. After all, we don't really know how much time passed between his arrival at the dock and Jack's arrival at the dock. How he would know to steer it is the big problem I don't quite see a way around yet, but let's just assume that he did.
In that case, Locke would have conned Ben real good. Ben thinks the only way to get off the island is gone, all of his people are committed long-term now and the survivors can't get away, either. In his enthusiasm, he might even reveal more secrets to Locke than he would have otherwise.
And meanwhile, Locke knows that the sub is still there, and while he himself would never use it, he can keep that knowledge to himself until he figures out a way on how to use it. Either to act against Ben and the others, or to get the survivors off the island while he himself stays there.
So the more I think about it, he didn't blow it up. I don't want him to have blown it up. Besides, he really was bone-dry when he entered the sub, and totally drenched when he was on the dock again. Hmmm:drowsy:

FunTimeHurley

03-22-2007, 10:17 AM

It's a very interesting debate, whichever way it turns out, but a simpler explanation for why he's wet could be he went into the sub to pilot it just off the dock (didn't he grab or loosen the rope tying it to the dock?), it's not submerged, just away from the dock (so someone else couldn't quickly & easily catch him and/or defuse the c4), he planted the bomb, climbed back out, swam a bit back to the dock, and the rest is history...

just mho

zaphod_fl

03-22-2007, 10:18 AM

You're assuming that he did...

A) Locke was soaking wet on the dock, yet, was bone dry in the sub...

B) Spoiler photos of the sub in broad daylight taken during episode 19-20 filming means there were 2 subs, or, Locke didn't blow up the sub. We'll have to wait and see.

Link to photos?
100%
I have this recorded in HD at home... I'll see if there is a view of the dock prior to it exploding. I doubt it.

I thought for sure he blew it up... now... not so sure...

silverwhitemoon

03-22-2007, 10:21 AM

Now that you mention it, it is odd that he was wet. When we saw him inside the sub, and walking further into it, I thought: does it really matter where he puts the C4? I really hope he didn't blow up the sub. "I gotta get the hell off this island!" (said by Jack)

I hadn't thought of that but I think you are right. I was thinking the same thing when he got on the sub. I think TPTB have thrown us off by having him blowing up the flame and then we see him - we think - blowing up the sub. That would be a cool twist if he was tricking them all and the sub was in one piece somewhere else.

merew

03-22-2007, 10:30 AM

Does that mean Locke really was a submarine captain? I doubt Locke knew how to hot wire a submarine and move it away from the dock. What would be the purpose of moving it? He certainly couldn't have moved it very far, they would find it easily.

No, I think with LOST, the most obvious answer has always been the correct one. Locke went all navy seal and planted his explosive on the outer hull of the submarine, that's why he was all wet.

sully

03-22-2007, 10:39 AM

They showed Locke go into the sub so I thought he planted the explosive in the sub. (Did anyone else think it was strange that Locke knew where the light switch was on the sub? My first thought was "Gezz, that could have blown the balast!) The explosion seemed to come from the sub hatch which would indicate it exploded inside the sub. I assumed Locke was wet from sweat, but it sure seemed like a lot of sweat.

I think the sub was a fake, a non-functioning sub that was there for Locke to blow up. Another manipulation by the Others of the Losties, to what end I'm not sure, but all the references to con games in this show is starting to make me think this whole thing, the crash, the crazy island, the Other's initially dressing up in beards, everything, is just one big con game aimed at the Losties or a few of them. The only thing I can think they would want out of it is Hurley's ATM account number and password :^).

Why a con game? I've heard the writers say there is no supernatural events, no purgurtory, no aliens, etc... involved. If so then the events on the island are being manipulated by people. If that is true it is really looking like one big con game. Another bit of evidence, none of the Others looked upset or worried now that the sub was blown up. You'd think someone would be the least bit worried.

sickotriz

03-22-2007, 10:56 AM

How far and to where would Locke move the sub in order to hide it? How far would he need to swimback, in his shoes and full clothing?

It would be unlikely that he submerged it, unless he found a way to time the submerge (how would he get out if the sub is underwater?) . I love this theory though!

BOOYEAHachieved

03-22-2007, 11:00 AM

sounds like an excellent subject to be discussed in the podcasts. they've been known to clarify things we've seen in prior episodes before so hopefully they'll lay this topic to rest in the next one. i really could see this going either way.

Parrot

03-22-2007, 11:17 AM

. . . When Locke went to the sub and went in it, he was dry.
When we see Locke walking on the pier he is soaking wet.
What did he really do?

He blew up the sub.

If you look back on all the characters last week and this week, they all appear soaking wet, glistening. It's called humidity. Or maybe a brief rain storm.

skyjuice

03-22-2007, 11:26 AM

I think he blew up the sub. But if he didn't blow up the sub, then maybe he wants to use it to get people off the island. So he can have the island all to himself :) .

Lost_In_NJ

03-22-2007, 12:06 PM

I thought that was pretty strange as well. John wasn't sweating. He was soaking wet, head to toe. Hopefully we will find out why.

finks213

03-22-2007, 12:20 PM

You know what would be really cool?

Is if Locke really WAS a submarine captain before, like when he was 'joking' about it to Ben...

Remus Lupin

03-22-2007, 12:28 PM

I don't know what was up with that, but he was sexy. :naughty:

It's kinda like in SIASL when Jack was working with his kite, his pants were all wet and he had just came from inside. :biggrin:

Distress Signal

03-22-2007, 12:47 PM

I don't know what was up with that, but he was sexy. :naughty:

LMAO, I didn't think anyone would have the guts to mention this. You said it for me. ;)

Locke was soaking wet from swimming, probably because he somehow drove the submarine further away from the deck so that it wouldn't blow up anything else, and had to jump from the submarine into the water and swim back. He looked exactly like a G.I.Joe to me.

lost_fae

03-22-2007, 12:48 PM

If you rewatch the scene, Locke is REALLY wet. His pants are completely soaked. And the cameras takes the time to show him from head to toe.

Also, the sub was parked on the left side of the dock, and the explosion comes from the end of the dock, not the side.

:confused:

PINK FREUD

03-22-2007, 12:51 PM

MadAxes

03-22-2007, 12:59 PM

i think the suub was like 12 ft or so away from the dock, it dint look like you could walk right onto it ... when i saw him wet i assumed he had to go in the water to get back to the dock

he def blew up the sub ... he and ben just had a common interest ... locke is doing the islands work and thats what he thought he was supposed to do

rthensley

03-22-2007, 12:59 PM

I'm not really sure what I believe.

If he moved and submerged the sub, how did he get out of the sub? You can't just open the hatch underwater. Also, I would not think that Locke would have been qualified to move the sub.

I would think that one C-4 charge would NOT have completely destroyed the sub. There should have been large pieces of metal left. Hopefully it will be real easy to tell if he actually did blow up the sub.

So far it looks like he DID blow up a sub. Maybe they have more than one sub.

lockesmithe

03-22-2007, 01:10 PM

I rewatched the scene and saw that Locke was wet (especially his head). Of course, Jack had some sweat going on himself, just from walking from Othersville to the dock. I imagine that sub, docked in the tropics, would be pretty toasty inside. In addition, the explosion showed bits and pieces of something flying in the air. He blew up something. The easiest guess is to assume that he blew up the sub.

This scene reminds me of the "Ana Lucia didn't shoot Shannon" scene. I remember people (on other forums--don't think I found this forum yet) focused a lot of the production, make-up (she wouldn't bleed that much if she was shot), etc of the scene and concluded that Shannon didn't die from a gunshot wound. Of course, the easiest of the answers was true...Shannon was shot by Ana Lucia.

However, it would be pretty neat if I was wrong and the sub still exists. But who's to say that the Others don't have another sub?

MinnieVanMommie

03-22-2007, 01:18 PM

There will have to eventually be contact from the outside world. The outside world knows that there are peoole on the island and how to get back and forth. I find it hard to beleive tht there is only one sub...if that was the case...how did Michael and walt get off the island?

dangerousdirk

03-22-2007, 01:26 PM

I agree that he was in the water doing something, and my opinion is that he didn't actually blow up the sub. I think he knows that Ben wanted him to blow it up, so he didn't. So, what did he blow up then?

hiccup

03-22-2007, 01:29 PM

As Alex and Locke approached the dock where the sub was waiting, it was quite clear WHAT it was-- I mean, anyone could see the sub docked there. So if John had moved the darned thing, wouldn't it have been immediately apparent to Jack and Juliet and Co. as THEY approached the dock? "Hey...Who moved the sub?!" I don't think they'd have been all THAT distracted by a dripping-wet Locke striding down the dock to NOT have noticed the sub was gone. And I think he was wet because blowing a hole in the outside of the hull would surely sink it the faster than from the inside. But he probably did both.

DH was a submariner, not that he blew any of 'em up. I'll ask him!

Cheers--
*hiccup*

The Ringo

03-22-2007, 01:38 PM

Link to photos?

From the spoiler section:

http://www.thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=72580

Again, these pictures don't mean that the sub still exists. There could be a second sub...If there's only one sub, and it was indeed destroyed, the production crew could have simply moved this sub prop to another location and is just keeping it there until the end of season where they'll then dissasemble it...or, maybe Locke didn't destroy it. There's many possibilities and no clear answer...yet...

div2n

03-22-2007, 01:40 PM

Well, the sub was definitely moved from where it was when he first found it...and he did seem to know his way around didnt he?

So if he knew about subs somehow, he could well have know about how to sink it...without blowing it up! He's doing a reverse con on Benny?

Remember he had figured out that Ben WANTED the sub blown...and I doubt he'd give Ben anything he wanted...

Hmmm . . . not a bad theory at all. I kind of like it. He could do this if he used an escape hatch assuming there was one. It should allow him to exit the sub underwater without flooding it.

Randingo

03-22-2007, 01:43 PM

I think it wouldn't be that hard to submerge the sub. Then leave via the divers hatch, and swim back to the dock set a charge and let her rip. I watch the end again this morning. Looks like the explosion comes from the middle of the dock. Not where the sub was.

traverses

03-22-2007, 01:48 PM

Also, for those wondering about pieces floating to shore from the explosion: "Blowing up" the sub is not like blowing up a row boat. The most that would happen is a large hole that sinks the think. You don't blow a sub to smithereens! not even a torpedo does that.

Islandbull

03-22-2007, 01:51 PM

I think Locke really did blow up the submarine:flamethrower:, I think He just put the C4 on the outside of the sub so that it would sink. Also, if he did move the sub, once day time comes around don't you think someone might see it. I mean it can't be underwater, you wouldn't be able to get in it afterwards and he could not have move it far. I think he went in the sub to possibly find some answers or some thing useful. :twocents:Just my 2 cents about it. What do you think?:locke:

lostgurl

03-22-2007, 01:52 PM

I'm going to say that Locke moved the sub away from the dock, and then swam back before it blew it. We saw something explode, and there wasn't anything else that it could have been. Locke doesn't want the sub to exist, whether Ben also does or not. Locke wanted it destroyed and I'm pretty sure he destroyed it.

char

03-22-2007, 01:55 PM

Melikon

03-22-2007, 02:10 PM

Maybe Locke blew up the undeground/underwater tunnel leading to the open ocean, in essence trapping the Others in Suburbia.

Shardyk

03-22-2007, 02:24 PM

I hadn't thought of this... I just assumed he blew it up because that's what he does best.

factual

03-22-2007, 03:09 PM

The explosion was not a long way from the end of the dock, but it was in a different spot from the sub's mooring spot. Moving the sub would make sense if the plan was to sink it in deeper water. It would be easier to repair if it was sitting on the bottom in the shallows, still partly above water.

cool_freeze

03-22-2007, 03:17 PM

I am almost positive he blew up the sub, but that sounds like it is beyond greatness!!!! REAALLYYYY!!! Ohhh maybe it COULD be true...but it isn't.

It isn't at all.

Billy Shears

03-22-2007, 03:50 PM

I'm clueless here.

1- If really he did blow the sub;
a) Why was the explosion seen above water?
b) Why was he wet?
c) Why didn't either the nose or stern first rise up out of the water, like we see all subs in the movies go down?

2- If he didn't blow the sub;
a) How in the world did a regional box manager move and submerge it?, and how did he escape a submerged sub if he did?
b) How could he expect the others there to not immediately inspect the damage, not find any, and making it all a waste of time for him?

Locked_In

03-22-2007, 03:58 PM

[quote=Remus Lupin;1444329]I don't know what was up with that, but he was sexy. :naughty:

I didn't have the guts to say that. Thanks.

I don't think Locke blew the sub. Wouldn't there have been a bigger Ka-boom? Pieces and parts and water sprayed all over everyone.

Locke knew Ben wanted him to blow the sub. So, I don't think he blew it.

Ama1

03-22-2007, 04:09 PM

I also think he faked the submarine explosion. I mean, if you were really gonna put explosives outside a sub (and even then, it would be stupid since puting them inside would surely destroy it), why put it under water, under the said submarine ? It just doesn't make any sense.
For me, we saw Locke going inside the sub (and especially in the "cabin" of the "pilot", whatever that's called) for a reason, he was trying to move the sub elswewhere.
Then he swam to shore, and put the explosives somewhere and/or on something else.

sully

03-22-2007, 04:23 PM

This morning I was thinking you were all crazy for thinking the sub was not blown up but faking the sub's explosion would be a nice plot twist. Locke DID know where the lightswitch was. I thought that was very strange, going into an unlit sub, at night and just reaching over for the switch that you must have had to previously know was there. If the sub had been moved then he must have known how to move it so maybe his reference to the navy was real. If I remember correctly Ben was a little surprised.

If Locke is pulling a con on the Others then, well, bravo for the writers. I think we all want to see the Losties win more than just their freedom now and then.

Jack also seems to have an angle, maybe a pact with Juliet and Tom. They seem chummy enough. Other people are speculating the Losties and Others will merge. Maybe, but if it happens I expect yet another group to appear, people from outside the island with hostile intent. Just a hunch...

div2n

03-22-2007, 04:33 PM

If I remember correctly Ben was a little surprised.

You got to wonder if the file they have on Locke has large gaps of unexplained time in his life. Maybe they chalked it up to him going off the grid or some such thing but weren't sure. That comment might have caught Ben quite off guard and put doubt in his head.

Jack also seems to have an angle, maybe a pact with Juliet and Tom. They seem chummy enough.

There is more to this than we know I believe. Did anyone notice when Tom led Jack into talk to Kate at the pool hall that Tom said something along the lines of be careful what you say? He seemed to make a motion to remind Jack of cameras and what not. Kind of odd if you ask me. It immediately led me to believe that true to what Juliet hinted at that there is a splintering faction of Others away from Ben. Heck--even Ben himself alluded to it with the whole "Locke please blow up my sub" bit.

There is something going on within the Others. You have to wonder who is on what side.

TK 421

03-22-2007, 04:39 PM

div2n

03-22-2007, 04:42 PM

I hadn't considered that John didn't blow up the sub...it would be a very redeeming plot twist for John if that were true because I think his reason for NOT blowing it up would be for a one way trip off the island for anyone who didn't want to be there. We're all thinking John is being selfish by ruining any chances of communicating with the world or getting off the island, so it would be really cool if he didn't blow the sub. We know Ben really doesn't want anyone to leave so that would make John a hero.

Or perhaps he is just trying to secure an escape route away from Othersville. But one thing bothering me--what happened to the security fence surrounding Othersville? Did they not have to cross it to get to the water? The map Sayid had sure made it look that way.

mikey_mike

03-22-2007, 04:51 PM

some excellent brainstorming here. It never occured to me that John didnt sink the sub but man something went up in smoke and a damaged sub, even in the dark of night, would not look like a damaged pier. Something had to go and you like to assume that after the explosion some of the Others looked to the damage.

Still...the idea that John did not sink it is quite a juicy plot line. I prefer, however, to believe that there is a second sub but i would love to see Locke outwit and out smart Ben from here on out just to see the look on Ben's manipulative face.

duckab234

03-22-2007, 04:54 PM

the sub is gone... let's try to curb the over analyzing of the show, the writers are very smart and imply a lot of things that we have to accept at face value, or else we may as well question the whole damn show. how many of these wacky speculations have ever come even close to true? none... what i'm more interested in is trying to put the pices of the puzzle together, cause there's a definite timeline of events and reasons for everyone's actions, and when they're revealed to us, we are not told explicitly but shown it, though the scenes that reveal things usually have a strange mise-en-scene to them that we may question what we are seeing. but some people take it too far sometimes and overcomplicate everything.

TK 421

03-22-2007, 05:01 PM

I agree 100% with you duck but the only incongrous piece of info leading me to believe there's more to the sub blowing up is John being soaking wet. Maybe he did move it to deeper water and had to swim back, which is amazing in itself because it means John knew how to drive the sub.

shyguy

03-22-2007, 05:04 PM

ottomatic

03-22-2007, 05:12 PM

I thought John went into the sub, planted the device and not knowing exactly how long he had until the fuse blew, he took the nearest exit which led him to the water.

Billy Shears

03-22-2007, 05:16 PM

It didn't make much sense that Alex would lead him there and just casually walk away while a stranger was about to mess with their sub. A 16 year old who isn't happy on the island, and told the sub was their way off it, would care a lot about it. There must be something about her that we don't know too.

And if Locke and her got through or under, the perimeter fence on the way there, how did Danielle follow?

div2n

03-22-2007, 05:18 PM

the sub is gone... let's try to curb the over analyzing of the show,

I'm sorry, but your assertion is quite a bit short sighted. For Locke to destroy the sub, he didn't even really need to go down in it and go exploring. He could have put the C4 at the base of the entrance hatch and that thing would have ruptured beyond repair. Then for Locke to return back to the docks dripping wet after we just saw him wondering around the inside of the sub completely dry raises quite a few questions that cannot possibly be ignored.

PINK FREUD

03-22-2007, 05:35 PM

I thought John went into the sub, planted the device and not knowing exactly how long he had until the fuse blew, he took the nearest exit which led him to the water.

What fuse? he just grabbed a block of C4 with the old wires sticking out...wouldnt he need a timed charger?

ozieozwall

03-22-2007, 05:35 PM

This Ep is theory driven. If Locke was a navel sub commander (I think not) he could have driven the boat out from the pier and submerged it then placed a charge to disable it, destroy it or totally fake it. Ever since we first saw Locke he's been the "man."

Perhaps Lost is nothing more than Locke sitting at a desk with a computer thinking up this incrediable story and writing a book...

Tom Chaney

03-22-2007, 06:43 PM

As mentioned in another thread: Who was going to drive the sub? Jack? Ben has already mentioned that it takes a lot more knowledge than just pushing a "submerge" button. Either one of the others was going to accompany Jack or there was already a pilot in the vessel waiting for his/her passengers.

When Locke entered the sub, perhaps he had figured this out and was going down to say "Hello" to the sub driver. He may have even had an interest in the ship's log. Not much of a stretch to imagine a chase/fight ensued. One that may have even ended up in the water.

Did Locke merely blow up the sub which would have killed the pilot? Or did he get the pilot out first then blow up the sub?

In the next episode, it may be interesting to see if there's somebody at the dock who we didn't see last night... maybe somebody just as wet as Locke.

Panten

03-22-2007, 06:57 PM

I believe there's more to it than we see (just as it was back then when Michael returned to the hatch)

Why would he pilot the sub away from the dock and swin back? If he wants to destroy it, he can destroy it right there - i don't think he would have regrets if the dock would get blown up too. Besides that, the camera work is quite interesting in the scenes too - we clearly see the sub when Locke approaches the dock but did anybody see it clearly when the others come to the party? I might be over-analyzing here - but the explosion sounded like alot of wood would blow up an not a large piece of metal.

I think (and hope) Locke turned into the Hannibal Smith of the island and has a plan.

Maybe the sub was indeed piloted away (as we remember, Danielle was also there - and she might know how to steer a boat) and they will use it to free alll of their people So far only Jack and Juliet would have escaped and Locke didn't know anything about the trade Jack and Ben had made

RMLost

03-22-2007, 07:34 PM

I believe there's more to it than we see...did anybody see it clearly when the others come to the party?

It's not there. I'm comparing two screencaps I made and it sure seems empty at the end of the dock when he's down on his knees just prior to the explosion.

Also, the audience was shown that he was soaked from head to toe (as if he had just climbed out of the water). It was a nice, slow pan - very deliberate.

And don't forget the comment about being a "naval commander".

Something blew up; I just don't think it was the sub. Or at least, I don't think TPTB want us to think it was the sub :)

MarkKligman

03-22-2007, 08:44 PM

Billy Shears

03-22-2007, 09:08 PM

When we first see "otherville" in tale of two cities...it is in the middle of nowhere, not close to water at all. but it only takes locke a little while to get to the sub, are we supposed to think that he was traveling to get there for longer than we think...or is that just something that had to be changed for the story line to be able to continue??

When I look at all the modern equipment they've already got, it's hard for me to believe they carried a post-op Ben on a stretcher across land up to the barracks, but rather put him on some kind of vehicle either on a road or through one of the tunnels we saw on the map. So I think that was Locke and Alex's mode of travel to the sub as well.

Babydoll

03-22-2007, 09:10 PM

HE SUNK THE SUB, he went in, pressed a button, submerged the sub,set up the detonation timer, most likely a microwave or something else with a timer. Then he climbed out the divers hatch, swam to the surface, swam to and climbed onto the dock. The timer in the sub went off and detonated the C4 that was attached to something left floating on the surface of the water. BIG BOOM, no sub boo boo..lol. Anyways, the sub would be hidden, no wreckage to speak of. and ...Presto!! You got a sub.:cool:

pibbsneaker

03-22-2007, 09:16 PM

Going with him not having blown the sub up. This season is supposed to be a return to the Locke of old not the Locke that gets owned by Ben.

cjack007

03-22-2007, 10:49 PM

I think that Locke did not blow up the sub. I think he meant it earlier this season when he told the people on the beach that he was going to go get their people back. I think that is the real John Locke.

johnny 99

03-22-2007, 10:57 PM

I agree, John has a plan and is pulling the wool over ben's eyes.
I have a theory, that the sub is basically operated by computer. And john was given the code to send it someplace on autopilot by Dr. Candle at the end of the enter 77 video. Which would explane how he could get it through the security fence , and far enough away that the others can't find it.

Also, did anyone else think that John might have had a tape recorder , or radio in his pocket while ben was giving his evil genuise monologe about tricking the others into thinking they can leave whenever they want to?

sully

03-22-2007, 11:02 PM

Just watched the epi again and it sure looks like something small blew up. Wood was flying, probably part of the doc, but no sub. Nothing. If the explosion was underwater there would not have been the fireball but instead a lot of water flying everywhere. I'm now convinced he hid the boat, placed the charge on the end of the dock and for some reason ended up in the water. Can't wait for that flashback! Good work guys in picking this out. It wasn't that obvious and last night as I watched it I was convinced I saw the sub, unless, ABC put an altered episode up on the net .... arghh, trust no one!

Maybe Russeau can pilot the thing. Anyway, I'm sure the sub is fine though I'd wonder why the Others would not at least check it out to see if its salvagable, unless Locke took it down, escaped in an escape hatch (not the main hatch, an escape hatch will not sink the boat). So when the Others get to the end of the dock they see the sub underwater and are convinced its sunk. Maybe we'll see that next week.

Also, when Locke is at home just before the lady's son arrives to question Locke, he's sitting on a couch and over the couch is a frame holding various medals and other military looking emblems. Anyone notice them? Any of them navy or submarine service?

NapTime

03-22-2007, 11:04 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Locke heavily involved in some kind of "war game?" He is obviously extremely intelligent. Part of his war game experience may have led him to research submarines, and that would probably include basic functions. If that is the case, he could have known just enough to - in effect - back the sub out of the garage.

Also, what other reason would there have been for him to be soaking wet? I don't think the C-4 would work if he had gotten it wet?

johnny 99

03-22-2007, 11:35 PM

Yes, c-4 will work under water.

div2n

03-22-2007, 11:57 PM

Anyway, I'm sure the sub is fine though I'd wonder why the Others would not at least check it out to see if its salvagable, unless Locke took it down, escaped in an escape hatch (not the main hatch, an escape hatch will not sink the boat). So when the Others get to the end of the dock they see the sub underwater and are convinced its sunk. Maybe we'll see that next week.

They may yet take a look for the "sunken" sub. But part of the art of a good con is to use misdirection and convince someone of a truth so that they don't question it.

NapTime

03-23-2007, 12:14 AM

Yes, c-4 will work under water.

Ahhh, thank you for clarifying! :)

CraigRC

03-23-2007, 12:29 AM

I don't think Locke blew up the sub. I think Locke submerged the boat (he doesn't have to move it to do this if the water is deep enough next to the pier) and then blew up the end of the pier. Here is what makes me believe this:

1. To submerge the sub is not hard. You simply open the ballast tank vents. It’s a matter of flipping a few switches. If Locke comes back (see #2 below) all he has to do to raise the sub again is to close the ballast tank vents and release pressurized air into the ballast tanks. Again, this is a matter of flipping a few switches.
2. Once submerged he could exit the sub through an escape hatch/divers hatch. The escape hatch is basically a lock. You have two hatches with a small space between them. He climbs into this space, shuts the lower hatch, pressurizes the space, opens the upper hatch, and then swims to the surface. If he wants to come back later he swims down to the escape trunk, closes the outer hatch, drains the water, and opens the inner hatch.
3. Locke is soaking wet when Jack and his party find him. There is no way this is from sweat. The easiest way to sink a sub would be to plant the explosives on the inside (if you have access, and Locke did), not the outside, so why would he be wet if he simply planted the explosives and walked off the boat?
4. When Locke walks down to the sub it is on the left side of the pier. When we see the explosion it is not on the left side, it’s at the end. Also, the pieces of debris that come flying up with the fireball look like planks of wood.

sh4dy15

03-23-2007, 12:43 AM

I just signed up for this board after reading this theory case i think people really got something with it and like pretty much everyone else whether its true or not i wanna believe in Locke haha I didnt read through all 13 pages but i dunno if anyone said anything about the fact that he immedietely knew where the light switch was, he knew Ben wanted him to blow it up the whole time so why would he, and where did his backpack go?...my guess is its prob in the sub :)

tenglan1

03-23-2007, 01:03 AM

Great points Craig, you beat me to the punch. Also, having just re-watched it, I noticed something about the scene of him walking up to the sub. There's a cut when he approaches the sub between when he's walking up and when he opens the hatch. Maybe I'm reaching here, but between the cut, which wasn't as sharp as most, and the music cues, to me, it implied a passage of time. Time enough to undo the mooring lines maybe?

Also, for to the people suggesting he planted the c4 on the outside of the sub, why show him going in at all? I think they definitely wanted to show his familiarity with the vessel. He may have merely been looking around, but he looked pretty purposeful, and not the least bit "lost". Plus to achieve his goal of cutting off contact with the outside world he doesn't have to destroy the sub, merely take it out of play. If he's hidden the sub, he's effectively done that AND secured a bargaining chip of sorts if he should ever need it. Also, to the people wondering how a paper pusher from a box company could learn to pilot a sub, how did he learn to do the following?
Hunt wild boar with a knife.
Mix up a batch of a peyote like substance
Build a trebuchet from scratch
Use C-4 (this one gets me the most, as people just assume anybody would know what to do with a block of C-4)
Predict the weather with uncanny accuracy
Use a wide variety of firearmsWhile driving a sub might be complicated, and nearly impossible for a single man, submerging it might not be that difficult, and could probably be learned through good old fashioned "book learning." And knowing what a propensity for lies Ben has, there's a good possibility that there IS a big button that says "Submerge"

shyguy

03-23-2007, 01:07 AM

if the sub is underwater, how would someone enter it without flooding it?

tenglan1

03-23-2007, 01:27 AM

As mentioned above, you can enter a submerged sub through a diving lock (get it, lock/locke? I crack myself up) Think back to the second Aliens movie when she's fighting the queen in that big yellow loader suit. It's basically a set of double doors on either side of a small chamber that can be flooded or pressurized as needed to allow entry/exit without flooding the main vessel

pibbsneaker

03-23-2007, 01:35 AM

You can learn alot of stuff from video games. Simulations might not teach you exactly how to pilot something, but they definitely show you the basics.

Daphne

03-23-2007, 02:10 AM

I don't think he blew it. I think he really intended to do it until Ben told him about the sub being what made people have hope. John felt "something" for those who are cheated by Ben, and changed plans -more so when Ben tells him that it's a one way trip-. Locke intends to stay on the island and allow everybody else to leave, by using the submarine. He hid it, and made it look as if he blew it.

John Burger

03-23-2007, 03:02 AM

All this question is --is a testament to what many fans do all the time on Lost forums..they dont trust anything they see. :) I dont think you can enjoy the flow of the story if your constantly doing this. People did it with Time Travel and many other things shown very clearly on screen and in the script...you would think you would learn

Rule # 1..believe what you see unless you have a very good reason to question it.
None of the reasons stated here are good reasons. In fact everything points to the sub being blown up. So the Sub has been blown up

Rule#2..almost every con they ever had has been resolved in that very episode

Rule#3..has the character done something that is consistant with his story arc and character?

Well...durrrrr :)

tenglan1

03-23-2007, 03:11 AM

You make some good points, but I have to disagree with you about it affecting my ability to enjoy the flow of the story. It would drive me nuts to just sit and absorb this show like a sponge, and I think TPTB WANT us to be thinking, and second guessing what we see. We've been misdirected on a number of occasions, and not all cons play out that quickly. When Ben was first impersonating Henry Gale comes to mind as a prime example.

I do think the reasons above are enough to question what happened off camera. They could easily have shown Locke placing the charge somewhere in the sub, but they chose NOT to show it. Instead, they showed us that he's somewhat familiar with the sub (based on how easily, and confidently he flipped that light switch) and they showed him going into the sub via the hatch, and then emerging soaking wet. How does that not make you wonder?

Plus I don't think Locke's character arc is necessarily blowing stuff up, I believe it's more about him fulfilling his destiny and establishing some kind of "order" to the chaos on the island. I believe it's also about him refusing to be conned anymore. He knew what Ben wanted. I think Locke's decided he's not going to be on the receiving end of a con anymore.

pibbsneaker

03-23-2007, 03:14 AM

I wonder how a submarine makes a difference anyways. It was too small to be nuclear powered, and a desiel submarine of that size would definitely have a limited range.

tenglan1

03-23-2007, 03:32 AM

Hmm, good point. I would argue we didn't really get a good idea of the size of it though. I was a bit surprised by how big it appeared in relation to what was visible above the water. Still, your point is pretty valid. There didn't appear to be any means of refueling it, at least not at that dock, which would imply a nuclear fuel source. Who knows, maybe the writers didn't get as far as figuring out what it ran on. It isn't really a sub after all, merely a plot device ;)

John Burger

03-23-2007, 07:11 AM

I do think the reasons above are enough to question what happened off camera. They could easily have shown Locke placing the charge somewhere in the sub, but they chose NOT to show it..

Hey

Sorry..but they DO SHOW him with the C4 in his hand, as he enters cockpit, and he reaches out his hand, with the C4 in it, to place it on the sonar panel.

Watch it again.

Why is he wet? He jumped in the water.

Why didnt they show the whole sequence? Because its TV. The drama of not knowing if he was going to to actually do it until he said "Im sorry" is what TV is all about.

I think the theories are not too good:)..but I love you guys ..but no one even mentioned the most obvious clue in their favor..which was he didnt have the bag(I say he hid it). But that doesnt mean he drove the sub to a secret location the dumb Others dont know about in their own territory--and they are dumb enough not to check if the sub actually blew up or not:eek2:

Again, this just reminds me of the hundred other things people said they dont believe happened..but did. If Im wrong....Im suppose to be..thats what a con is. Thinking everything is con..well then we're gonna be wrong 99% of the time and we cant move foward with the story in our heads.

rthensley

03-23-2007, 09:12 AM

I watched the sub blowing up scene again last night.

A few observations:

When John entered the sub he looked in both directions as if he was not sure which way to go. He did not immediately head to the front of the sub.

He did not fumble around looking for a light switch. Of course there was a bunch of red light in the sub. The light switch probably would have been fairly easy to see. Besides, how much entertainment value would it provide for Locke to have been showing feeling the wall for 30 seconds looking for a light switch.

Locke WAS soaking wet after leaving the sub.

Most importantly however was the fact that the sub was CLEARLY visibile still docked right beside the pier as Locke was walking away from the pier. NO way the sub was moved or submerged. Also, the explosion looked to have occured right where the sub was parked.

It looks like people read WAY too much into the sub exploding.

Just my 2 cents.

sully

03-23-2007, 09:26 AM

Again, this just reminds me of the hundred other things people said they dont believe happened..but did. If Im wrong....Im suppose to be..thats what a con is. Thinking everything is con..well then we're gonna be wrong 99% of the time and we cant move foward with the story in our heads.

I agree somewhat, but this is a little different. The clues for the sub not being blown up are many:
Locke being soaking wet.
No sub visible when the explosion happens.
Wood flying everywhere.
A really nice plot twist.

Time will tell (I hope). The big question in my mind right now is not the sub, its what Cooper is doing there. That obviously took some time and planning on Ben's part. If they have Cooper who else do they have? Jack's wife? Kate's Dad? If the Others can bring people from outside in quickly on demand, well, anything can happen now. I'm not really pleased with this since it gives the Others way too much ability. Maybe they'all all just take off in a space ship at the end. I mean, if anything is possible why work on this blog trying to figure out what might be happening? Cooper being there had better have some good explanation or I might begin to drift away.

One thing to note about Cooper, since he's a con man anything we learn from him in the coming weeks can't be trusted. He may be an Other himself, or, the woman he planned to marry (and maybe he did) might be an Other (she's rich after all, just like all the parent figures in this show). Maybe SHE sent Cooper to the island. Ok, gotta stop, my head is throbbing...

div2n

03-23-2007, 10:04 AM

So let's say you're Locke and you have (or believe you have) a deep understanding of the island--deeper than someone who's lived there their whole life and knows many of its secrets. By your understanding, the island is mystical, powerful and perhaps even spiritual.

Then let's say you discover a group of people that use the island for their own purposes--"cheating" by your reckoning. They suck the energy out of it (maybe) for electricity and God knows what other purposes. They don't get the island like you do. Or if they do, the don't care and abuse it.

Many of those people are on the fence of staying or going. Perhaps if they knew the whole truth they would be more likely to make the decision of staying and living in harmony with the island or going and returning to whatever life they once had.

Your goal is, apparently, to aid and appreciate the island (do you need a sacrifice today Mr. Island or was Boone enough?). Knowing that many of the people abusing the island (perhaps unknowingly) might want to leave do you:

A) Blow up their only guaranteed way home
B) Steal their only guaranteed way home
C) Tell them what the island really is
D) A and C as a means of punishment
E) B and C while allowing them to come with you

My vote is going to be on E. Jack's plan was to get off the island and bring a posse back for everyone. I think Locke's plan is going to be to take the sub and separate out those that want to stay on the island like him from those that don't. Let the ones that want to leave take the sub and everyone's happy. Oh--and in the process destroy the Others as he sees them as an abomination to the island.

Admiral Erik Pressman

03-23-2007, 10:18 AM

rthensley - you could really see the sub?? I've wathced this seen twice now, looking explicitly for the sub, but couldn't see it cause the scene was just super dark. I did also look at the screen caps, and couldn't see anything. I'm not trying to say that you are lying, cause I have pretty crappy eyesight, but I don't think the sub was "clearly" visible.

John Burger- good post; you're right I didn't even realize that John didn't have the bag. This actually supports my pet-theory which is:

Locke knew Ben was "conning" him prior to blowing up the sub. Alex even told him as much. Locke blew up the sub anyways, for a reason that we don't understand yet. And, inbetween blowing up the sub, and the scene with him walking down the dock, he managed to get wet, and maybe lost his bag too (He could have just left it in the sub; did you all see how he had to walk down the ladder carrying the bag above his head; maybe he was just in a rush to leave!).

03-23-2007, 10:44 AM

Sorry OT

Then let's say you discover a group of people that use the island for their own purposes--"cheating" by your reckoning. They suck the energy out of it (maybe) for electricity and God knows what other purposes. They don't get the island like you do. Or if they do, the don't care and abuse it.

This reminded me of Star Trek's TNG pilot Title: Encounter At Farpoint

premise: There is a planet were a city exist. In this city all kind of odd wonderful things happen.
To make a long story short. They discover the city is not a city at all. But a living thing that the people that live there are using for there own selfish purpose.

IrishKelly57

03-23-2007, 10:44 AM

First, I have to confess I haven't read all the posts on this subject. Secondly, the following is not my theory - it belongs to a person named "Kevin" who posted it on the Entertainment Weekly blog. The following is Kevin's theory:
Kevin Thu, Mar 22, 2007 at 11:01 PM EDT
OK so I rewatched last night's episode. A couple things. Locke went into the sub with his pack, axe, and C4. He came out wet WITHOUT the pack. He wouldn't just leave it. He needs the pack. When the explosion happened, in slo-mo there was NO sub next to the dock any more. I think Locke actually hit the submerge button, just like Ben joked that there was no button that said submere. Get it? Locke and buttons again. Then in the promo for next week we see Sayid underwater opening up a metal door. Sayid finds the sub that John submerged. More proof that John would not destroy it is that after being captured, he tells Ben that he KNEW Ben wanted him to destroy it. Ben doesn't say that he did until AFTER John reveals it. Knowing that Ben wanted him to John would never destroy it. He just wanted to keep anyone from using it. What better way to accomplish both goals than by merely hiding it? Locke is not falling for anything any more. He's the man!

03-23-2007, 10:48 AM

it is Paulo under water next week
http://gallery.lost-media.com/albums/ep-caps/season3/3x14-expose/expose-preview05.jpg

***THIS IS A PREVIEW...YOU MUST SPOILER FONT***

IrishKelly57

03-23-2007, 10:59 AM

Did anyone notice when Tom led Jack into talk to Kate at the pool hall that Tom said something along the lines of be careful what you say? He seemed to make a motion to remind Jack of cameras and what not. Kind of odd if you ask me. It immediately led me to believe that true to what Juliet hinted at that there is a splintering faction of Others away from Ben. Heck--even Ben himself alluded to it with the whole "Locke please blow up my sub" bit.

There is something going on within the Others. You have to wonder who is on what side.

EXCELLENT point! I had forgotten about that Tom comment until just now - I had wondered about that, too! Great comment!

applejuicefool

03-23-2007, 11:23 AM

http://bp2.blogger.com/_RrObyQ3XzcY/RfnMqpBZNkI/AAAAAAAACeA/7EvXaEtt1Dc/s1600-h/map2.jpg

The above link is a screen capture of the map they got from Mikhail. Couple of quick observations/questions:

The sonic security pylons of doom completely surround the Barracks. So where is the sub dock? Is that set of contour lines on the left (west?) side of the map the ocean? If so, then the pylons go out into the ocean presumably with the dock on the inside. Unless the zap from the pylons isn't dangerous to - and can't penetrate - the sub, or the zap doesn't go underwater (which would be pretty silly) the Others have to turn the security system off when they come and go.

What I'm getting at is this - if John did just move the sub, he probably had to keep it inside the pylon ring, which looks like he didn't have that much place to hide it.

-AJF

div2n

03-23-2007, 11:40 AM

Grasshopper30

03-23-2007, 11:44 AM

That would be awesome. I wondered why he was wet, thought they may have had to cut a scene or something.

applejuicefool

03-23-2007, 11:58 AM

Looks like the side of a mountain to me. Just a guess, but that tunnel that shoots off the bottom left corner probably goes straight to the ocean.

Did Locke find the tunnel, travel that whole distance, find the sub and do whatever he did to it in that short amount of time? Wouldn't the tunnel be guarded? Or are you saying the tunnel is an underwater sub tunnel? It sure looked like open ocean at the end of that dock to me.

Contour lines can go up or down - that might be a mountain, or it could go down and contain water.

-AJF

div2n

03-23-2007, 12:14 PM

Did Locke find the tunnel, travel that whole distance, find the sub and do whatever he did to it in that short amount of time? Wouldn't the tunnel be guarded? Or are you saying the tunnel is an underwater sub tunnel? It sure looked like open ocean at the end of that dock to me.

Contour lines can go up or down - that might be a mountain, or it could go down and contain water.

-AJF

I would guess the tunnel cuts straight through what is obviously raised elevation and opens up near sea level.

Remember that when we saw Othersville that it was surrounded by mountains except in one general direction. You can guess where the tunnel goes based on this image:

http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Image:Lost301theothersplaceintheisland.jpg

It would seem the tunnel goes through the mountain crater wall. Therefore, the ocean is most likely just over the mountain on the left side of the picture I linked to. No wonder the Others were worried about that sail boat. If a tunnel leading straight to Othersville is near the dock, how hard would it have been for the Losties to find it?

GreatHeights

03-23-2007, 12:38 PM

It would seem the tunnel goes through the mountain crater wall. Therefore, the ocean is most likely just over the mountain on the left side of the picture I linked to. No wonder the Others were worried about that sail boat. If a tunnel leading straight to Othersville is near the dock, how hard would it have been for the Losties to find it?

I agree with you idea that there is a tunnel from the shore to the Barracks, but I disagree with your interpretation of that picture. Seems pretty clear that the ocean would be closest on the right side of the picture, unless the Barracks were at the very end of a relatively skinny peninsula of the island.

My whole problem after looking at the map and that picture is that there's a major inconsistency between the map and the island we've seen on the show. Comparing the size of the barracks on the building with the barracks in the picture, its clear that the security fence should also be in that picture, but the fence was in a clearning which isn't there. Also, the crater isn't on the map, nor is the Flame in the picture. Seems like they didn't have all the details worked out when they made the shot of the barracks in the crater.

But to get back on topic, it just seems very unlikely to me that Locke didn't blow up the submarine. My entire experience watching this show is that the suspense and the mystery has been generated by unanswered questions, odd occurances, and tantilizing teasers, not by direct misdirection and lies. Could there be another sub? Sure. But the explision being a giant ruse by Locke (and maybe Rousseau) just doesn't seem to fit in with the MO of the show. I put this in the same category as clones as something that's just too convoluted for it to be believable when its revealed.

Aversion

03-23-2007, 12:47 PM

I can't imagine how he would get away with pretending to blow up the sub, it would be pretty obvious from the debris what had blown up or not There was nothing else at the end of that pier that we saw. And even if there was surely there's nothing else with that much metal, oil, etc in its construction then surely the Others would notice it missing.

No, I just can't see how Locke would expect to fool them if he hadn't really blown it up. I don't know why he was all wet but I can't imagine he managed to hide the sub, substitute something else for it and blow it up.

CaptJamesCook

03-23-2007, 01:00 PM

This thread is a great example of why I love "The Fuselage"-- rampant, totally out-of-control speculation over a mere 5 seconds of an episode. The writers of Lost may be creative, but they have no where near the imagine of people who post in the Fuselage! :grin:

lovelost4815162342

03-23-2007, 01:09 PM

i definatly think he blew up the sub. Cuz why wouldnt he? Why would he fake it? Sure it was a dumb move but if he didnt wanna get off the island, what would be a good reason to fake it.I think this question is kinda like the "Is someone's name here really dead???" question. haha. well i was just wondering why locke would fake it...

pitbull

03-23-2007, 01:10 PM

Knowing how Lost works, I think it's quite possible that Locke didn't blow the sub up. I think we'll learn that from a future Locke-centric episode where it will flash back to show us how he did it, something like that...

Apart from anything else, from the photos that were leaked of the sub, I can't believe that they'd go to the trouble of making something like that only to blow it up after only 5 minutes of screen time...? That'd be quite a waste...

But who knows...?

applejuicefool

03-23-2007, 01:10 PM

I would guess the tunnel cuts straight through what is obviously raised elevation and opens up near sea level.

Remember that when we saw Othersville that it was surrounded by mountains except in one general direction. You can guess where the tunnel goes based on this image:

http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Image:Lost301theothersplaceintheisland.jpg

It would seem the tunnel goes through the mountain crater wall. Therefore, the ocean is most likely just over the mountain on the left side of the picture I linked to. No wonder the Others were worried about that sail boat. If a tunnel leading straight to Othersville is near the dock, how hard would it have been for the Losties to find it?

Ok, I can see your point from this photo, IF the photo shows the Barracks and not some other installation. Still raises two major questions in my mind:

1) How did Locke get into the tunnel? Does it really seem likely that the Others would leave such an important tunnel unguarded?

2) The tunnel looks pretty long on the map, and even longer from the photo. If the scale on the map is 500 m (I have nothing to base this on other than a general sense of how big the village seemed), then it's easily a couple or three kilometers to the other side of the mountain. While that's not necessarily a long way for a fit person to jog, it's a long way for recovering Ben in a wheelchair to travel.

-AJF

div2n

03-23-2007, 01:51 PM

I agree with you idea that there is a tunnel from the shore to the Barracks, but I disagree with your interpretation of that picture. Seems pretty clear that the ocean would be closest on the right side of the picture, unless the Barracks were at the very end of a relatively skinny peninsula of the island.

The issue isn't which way is the geographical closest to the Ocean, but rather where in relation to this pictorial representation does the tunnel I allege they took go?

The first thing you need to do to grasp the situation is determine where in that aerial view of Othersville do the steep contour lines on the map from the Flame most likely reside. I submit that due to how close the steep area appears to be in relation to the buildings (on the Flame map), it MUST be immediately "above" and perhaps a little to the left of Othersville in the overhead picture since that is the piece of the mountain closest.

If that is true, then the tunnel on the Flame map on the bottom left would run underground almost straight to the left of Othersville in the aerial shot. This would suggest that if the camera were to pan left just a bit, you would immediately see the ocean. As the bird flies (and a level tunnel runs), this would be the closest route and most obvious to the ocean. I hope my description makes sense.

Aerial shot:
http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Image:Lost301theothersplaceintheisland.jpg

Flame map:
http://bp2.blogger.com/_RrObyQ3XzcY/RfnMqpBZNkI/AAAAAAAACeA/7EvXaEtt1Dc/s1600-h/map2.jpg

BagelsAndLockes

03-23-2007, 02:04 PM

Sorry, but I couldn't read this entire post....I just didn't have it in me. So if somebody else came up with this, then my apologies.

I thought it was interesting when Locke said to Ben something like ....For all you know I was a Naval Commander...Maybe he was in fact a naval commander (the whole "disability" thing would make more sense if this were the case) and maybe...just maybe, he piloted the sub to another location and blew up part of the dock instead.

Just food for thought :cool:

AZJeepDude

03-23-2007, 02:37 PM

I rewatched this just now after having read this thread. I thought Locke had blown up the sub, but now I'm pretty sure he didn't. I will say this -- there has to be more to Locke's history than we (or even Ben) know about. His ability to hunt and track, his knowledge of the island, his apparent understanding of how to use C4, the way he knew exactly how to find the switch to turn on the light in the submarine -- those all point to a John Locke that we just don't know.

applejuicefool

03-23-2007, 03:00 PM

The issue isn't which way is the geographical closest to the Ocean, but rather where in relation to this pictorial representation does the tunnel I allege they took go?

Aerial shot:
http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Image:Lost301theothersplaceintheisland.jpg

Flame map:
http://bp2.blogger.com/_RrObyQ3XzcY/RfnMqpBZNkI/AAAAAAAACeA/7EvXaEtt1Dc/s1600-h/map2.jpg

Ok, but why do you necessarily allege THAT tunnel is the one that goes to the sub? Why not the one which branches off that one close to the village? or the one actually labeled "Subterranean Passage" in the upper left of the map (the one with the fork at the hexagon)? I think that's the question that GreatHeights was asking.

If the photo and the map are indeed showing the same thing, I agree with you. The tunnel to the southwest seems most likely. The Losties or Tailies (whichever it is) would most likely have noticed naval operations going on across the lagoon from their beach!

I still think a tunnel - if not the sub itself (that was odd, right? the sub wasn't guarded) would be guarded - to keep those homesick Others from escaping.

But GreatHeights (I think it was) raised another good question - Where's the pylon clearing? I for one don't see anything in that photo that looks like the big open area where Kate, Sayid, John and Mikhail came upon the row of pylons - where they climbed over with the tree. Perhaps the Others did some clearing of the jungle AFTER 815 crashed?

-AJF

div2n

03-23-2007, 03:20 PM

But GreatHeights (I think it was) raised another good question - Where's the pylon clearing? I for one don't see anything in that photo that looks like the big open area where Kate, Sayid, John and Mikhail came upon the row of pylons - where they climbed over with the tree. Perhaps the Others did some clearing of the jungle AFTER 815 crashed?

-AJF

This is truly the most problematic issue at hand with continuity. I can only offer this possibility to preserve continuity. If you look at the aerial picture, you notice that the ground slopes down and to the right on the right side of Othersville. The only good explanation is that the clearing is on the backside of a slope hidden from the camera's perspective. This isn't hard to accept if you look at this image:

http://www.lostpedia.com/images/2/29/3x12_ParAvion_SonicBarrier.jpg

See the hill in front of them?

Otherwise, the concept of the fence came after the aerial shot was created or the location they chose to shoot the fence scene in was selected afterwards.

Of course, they could have elected to specifically not show a clearing surrounding Othersville to keep the fence under wraps. I mean, really--if there had a been a clearing surrounding Othersville in that shot, how much conjecture would we have thrown forward? It could have been a big source of distraction from other things for the entirety of the season until now.

Admiral Erik Pressman

03-23-2007, 03:25 PM

I don't think we have a discrepency with they geography of the barracks, and how close it is to the ocean.

Remember in ATOTC when Ben tells Ethan that if he runs he can make the Tailie's shore in an hour. The tail section would presumably be the wreckage on the right side of the screen cap. If that can be made in an hour, then the closest route between the barracks and the ocean could be done in what, 20-30 minutes???

But, the issue of whether or not Locke crossed the fence, and if so how he did it is still important. Maybe Alex did just take him through a tunnel, who knows. But, if that's true then that means that Danielle aslo used it, which tells us that it's unsecured, and probably not concealed. If the tunnel under the fence isn't secure, what's the point of the fence in the first place????

rthensley

03-23-2007, 03:26 PM

rthensley - you could really see the sub?? I've wathced this seen twice now, looking explicitly for the sub, but couldn't see it cause the scene was just super dark. I did also look at the screen caps, and couldn't see anything. I'm not trying to say that you are lying, cause I have pretty crappy eyesight, but I don't think the sub was "clearly" visible.
.

I watched the episode late last night. What I remember is clearly seeing the sub in the background when Locke was walking away from the pier (right before Ben's group captured him). It is possible that I am wrong about this (it was late), but I am pretty sure the sub was there when Locke was walking. I do NOT remember seeing the sub right before the explosion (of course it was real dark).

electric shepherd

03-23-2007, 03:40 PM

I don't know. It is wierd that he was dry in the sub but soaked when he came out. What purpose would it serve to not sink the sub? Maybe he does want a way off the island so he had to make it look like it was blown up, otherwise jack would have took it.
ben said that 'the others' having the option to leave the island helped him maintain his position as leader. now if locke could hold the option open for the losties to get off the island that would strengthen his position as losties leader don't you think?

we've being led on to believe that locke will blunder round blowing everything to kingdom come, i think this is where it stops...

JBauer24

03-23-2007, 03:52 PM

I think this is a very plausible theory. I have seen the episode in HD with the contrast and brightness turned right up and the evidence is rather persuading.

1. The sub is clearly visible as Locke approaches it.
2. The sub is not visible at all as Locke comes back from the pier. There is one shot just as he is kneeling and the others are pointing guns at him that shows the entire length of the dock. No sub.
3. Why is Locke soaking wet? This isn't some little goof - it was purposely done for a reason.
4. In Locke's bedsit in the flashback the board behind him with medals on is titled 'United States' Special Operations Forces'. Who knows, maybe Locke really was a commander in the Navy. Again, this wasn't put there by mistake.
5. When Locke enters the sub, he seems to know pretty well where he is going.
6. The sub is not visible in the explosion and no debris from it is seen. Only debris from the pier.

Am I allowed to post screenshots?

wibadgers8

03-23-2007, 04:00 PM

JBauer- yes you can post links to screenshots, and please do!

on the sub topic, i thought at first that locke had just placed the C4 on the outside of the sub, and that was the reason he was soaked, but now i actually think that he has moved it away. that is why he blew up the flame station on purpose, so they wouldnt be able to track it. i also think he didnt blow up the sub because of what marvin candle says after the entering of 77. how could he have known about the sub prior to the explosion of the flame? finally i think the others are going to start asking question as to why parts of the sub arent floating around, and they arent going to be able to find it.

rthensley

03-23-2007, 04:08 PM

I'll try to watch the episode again this weekend. Last night I was SURE the sub was visible when Locke was walking away from the pier.

TK 421

03-23-2007, 04:14 PM

You know what would be really cool?

Is if Locke really WAS a submarine captain before, like when he was 'joking' about it to Ben...

Yeaaaaah, but how could he go from being a Naval Commander to a Walmart stock boy? Honestly, when I look at his flashbacks I just don't see any evidence of Locke being a military man, a wannabe military man maybe as others have pointed out. Anything is possible though, he maybe could have had some kind of huge breakdown.

AZJeepDude

03-23-2007, 04:14 PM

I'll try to watch the episode again this weekend. Last night I was SURE the sub was visible when Locke was walking away from the pier.
I have no idea how subs work; is it plausible that it submerged just before the explosion?

applejuicefool

03-23-2007, 05:27 PM

This is truly the most problematic issue at hand with continuity. I can only offer this possibility to preserve continuity. If you look at the aerial picture, you notice that the ground slopes down and to the right on the right side of Othersville. The only good explanation is that the clearing is on the backside of a slope hidden from the camera's perspective. This isn't hard to accept if you look at this image:

http://www.lostpedia.com/images/2/29/3x12_ParAvion_SonicBarrier.jpg

See the hill in front of them?

Otherwise, the concept of the fence came after the aerial shot was created or the location they chose to shoot the fence scene in was selected afterwards.

Of course, they could have elected to specifically not show a clearing surrounding Othersville to keep the fence under wraps. I mean, really--if there had a been a clearing surrounding Othersville in that shot, how much conjecture would we have thrown forward? It could have been a big source of distraction from other things for the entirety of the season until now.

Just looking at the aerial photo, and blowing it up using a photo editor, I can't see the slope you're talking about, certainly nothing that would hide a clearing to the extent of the one you link to above.

I think it's more likely that the settlement shown in the aerial photo is not the Barracks, OR it's a production error.

-AJF

div2n

03-23-2007, 06:54 PM

Just looking at the aerial photo, and blowing it up using a photo editor, I can't see the slope you're talking about, certainly nothing that would hide a clearing to the extent of the one you link to above.

I think it's more likely that the settlement shown in the aerial photo is not the Barracks, OR it's a production error.

-AJF

The land in general slopes down to the right. You can see it without blowing it up. I'm willing to say production error, but I'm pointing out that the view is just far enough away and the ground slopes enough that it is possible you just can't see the clearing.

The effect I'm talking about can be envisioned by thinking of a road cut into the side of a mountain. If you are standing on the very top of the mountain and the slope of mountain stays absolutely constant, you wouldn't be able to see the road when you look down. You might notice a bit of a gap, but you wouldn't see what's underneath.

Similarly, it is possible from this aerial view that you might miss something due to the ground sloping out of sight just enough for you not to see the clearing.

dollhouse

03-23-2007, 11:15 PM

Well, I've made it through the first 10 pages of this thread and I want to mention another idea. Please forgive me if it's already been mentioned.

Earlier in this thread, someone mentioned Locke untying the sub from the dock. Now when you're doing something that you don't want to be caught doing, you do it as fast as possible. So why didn't he just stick the C4 on the sub and take off? How much C4 did he have? When Sayid found it in Locke's pack, he didn't search for more. Maybe it was obvious that was all he had.

So I think he untied the sub, went inside, knew his way around and moved it. Other people have mentioned that it is possible to exit a submerged sub. Then he swam back and blew up something else.

Besides, if the sub is gone, the show is over. As Ben said, with the communications down, including the sonar, no one can find the island. So everyone is stuck there. I doubt that though. I'm sure they'd come up with something else.

____________________
I stand corrected; we didn't see Locke untie the ropes. But he didn't have his backpack when he was walking down the dock.

lostmio

03-23-2007, 11:51 PM

Besides, if the sub is gone, the show is over. As Ben said, with the communications down, including the sonar, no one can find the island. So everyone is stuck there. I doubt that though. I'm sure they'd come up with something else.

That sub might be gone, but based on what we know about them, neither Ben nor Mikhail was likely telling the whole truth about it.
It didn't look very sustantial, hard to imagine it being the sole transport between the island and the outside world.
In Glass Ballerina, Colleen & her team presumably took the sub, which she called the Galaga, from Alcatraz to the big island. The sub could be a shuttle type vehicle used to reach intermediary places. So maybe everyone's not stuck but Jack doesn't know it, and that keeps Ben happy.
Since Juliet planned to leave also, it would be hard to scam her. I hope they show us how she arrived - if so, I'll be watching for wiggle room on the sub being the non-stop way in and out..

harpy

03-24-2007, 01:23 AM

I've been hitting pause and slow-mo on this episode over and over again and I'm pretty convinced that Locke didn't blow up the sub. If you stick to the "text" of the episode and only go on what you see and hear then it just fits that he didn't blow it up. People have already pointed out that the sub is very clearly there when he walks out, but when he is walking back it isn't in view at all. He's all wet and only comes back with his gun, but no pack. When he's on the boat he really looks like he knows what he is doing, quickly finding the light and moving with purpose towards one end of the ship. On top of that the comment about being a "commander in the navy" can easily be more than a sarcastic joke, which can be supported by the fact that there are numerous american flags in Locke's apartment, along with the special forces badges displayed on the wall.

But all of that has been detailed, I didn't catch also pointing out some of the other dialogue. Such as Alex explaining that Ben was trying to manipulate Locke, that he "makes you think it's your idea, but it's his" and Locke responding with "I'll have to keep that in mind." Then we go to after the event, and Locke and Ben have the exchange of "You don't have to pretend to be dissapointed..." and then go on to explain how Ben let it happen, allowing the c-4 to still be available to him, all because Ben wanted it to happen.

Ben at this point, with a bit of delight, shows his hand a bit, explaining the precarious position he was in with the situation with Jack, that is until "you came striding out the jungle John to make my dream come true." Now this is the exact opposite of Ben's normal MO. He's showing his hand, and explaining how Locke did what he wanted to have happen.

Now, step back a bit... the writers put dialogue, details and scenes in for a purpose. They don't have time to mess with when they only have 45 minutes to use per epsiode. So the exchange between Alex and Locke needs to be signifigant. Whether Locke planned to hide the sub all along can't be determined, but the "I'll have to keep that in mind" comment fits well into all of the evidence that he didn't blow up the sub, because it means he's circumventing Ben's manipulation. Beyond that, Locke himself has shown that he's more than willing to let people's assumption of a situation continue as long as it benefits his purpose.

Ultimately, it wouldn't make any sense for Locke to say to Alex "I'll have to keep that in mind" unless in fact he was keeping it in mind. If Ben really wants to have that sub either blow up or go away then I'm pretty sure Locke want's a completely different option available. He certainly doesn't want to be a pawn to Ben's machinations.

Finally... from a production standpoint it doesn't make much sense to blow up the sub. The internals of the sub are on screen for right around 30 seconds. Now they might have just been able to get use of an old sub to film for a day, but from a writing, directing and production standpoint it makes far more sense to get a lot more use out of an interesting and distinct enviroment. They went to the trouble to build the conning tower for a long shot, I just seriously doubt that they did all that work for 10 seconds of footage. It makes far more sense from a creative standpoint that we'll see the sub in action later on.

Exodus666

03-24-2007, 03:04 AM

Harpy, you have convinced me.
I originally thought he blew it up, but now Im having doubts.

The one thing that makes no sense if he blew it up is why he was wet.

Placing the explosive charges outside of the sub makes no sense since we saw him go in, and he was wet before the explosion, but not when he entered the sub.

So Lockes plan is to make the others, Ben specifically, think that he blew up the sub.
Thats why he says sorry to Jack, cuz he knows this means Jack wont be able to leave.

But what is John thinking of? Sure he can get away with it during the night, the sub was probably in deep enough water , considering he also blew up parts of the pier there would be no submarine wreckage, it would just sink straight down.

But during the day they would see it pretty fast, and Locke could not have placed the sub so far away they wont find it eventually.

Maybe all Locke is looking for is a few more hours. To get some more info out of Ben and to give Kate and Sayid a little more time to figure out whats going on with Jack.

Its risky, but this is John Locke we are talking about.

-Exodus