Where's Michael and Walt? Sorry if this has been brought up, I didn't see it. But the "others" are living under the illusion that they can leave anytime they want because the SUB is the only way home. So when the others saw Michael and Walt leave from the palla ferry they must have known he wasn't going anywhere. Juliet has been there for 3 years and she seems to think the only way home is the SUB. They have other boats, but when Locke blew up the sub it seemed like all hope was lost for Jack and Juliet. I know Ben supposidly gave Michael "special Directions" to get home, but according to this epi the sub is the only way ?

Where's Michael and Walt? Sorry if this has been brought up, I didn't see it. But the "others" are living under the illusion that they can leave anytime they want because the SUB is the only way home. So when the others saw Michael and Walt leave from the palla ferry they must have known he wasn't going anywhere. Juliet has been there for 3 years and she seems to think the only way home is the SUB. They have other boats, but when Locke blew up the sub it seemed like all hope was lost for Jack and Juliet. I know Ben supposidly gave Michael "special Directions" to get home, but according to this epi the sub is the only way ?

Excellent point. Maybe the yacht they got there in is in the Bahamas now?! :biggrin:
I was first going to say that the sub was the only way off because Michael and Walt took the boat but you're right, they got there on the big one. Hmm...
Can't possibly be a writing mistake. Theres something we're missing here...IMAGINE THAT!! ;)
When the "sky turned purple" they were all on the dock so they wouldn't have known at that time that they had lost communication. The sub, I would imagine, would have to communicate with someone, somewhere to let them know they were coming.
Can't just pull up and tie off a submarine I don't think. But that still leaves the question of the yacht. As for Michael and Walt, I still think they're floating around out there somewhere going in big circles! HA.

OK, how is it possible that the only way on or off is by submarine. Where could they possibly be and how did they get there by plane? In my mind I'm picturing some kind of underwater tunnel that they have to go through to get there. But even that doesn't make sense because Ben said that this was the last time that the sub could go and never come back because they lost all communication. Where are they? Atlantis?

What about Micheal and Walt, they supposedly left on a dinky little boat!! So Jack needn't be mad about the sub having been his only way off the island. All he needs to do is make Ben keep his word by giving him the coordinates to get off of the island. If in fact Micheal and Walt did get off the island.

Ben says that the submarine is their only way off the island and that with the beacon
turned off there is no way it can ever make it back. However, we know that The Others
have a sailboat and possibly a motorboat. Michael and Walt were able to leave the
island in a boat by following a compass heading. So why couldn't The Others do
the same in the sailboat? What's so special about the submarine? I can think of a
lot of reasons why one might need a submarine, but none of them hold if we also
believe that Michael and Walt made it back home in a regular motorboat.

MIchael and Walt are, most probably, making a wide circle around the island, like Desmond did. They aren't oing anywhere. Maybe they need the submarine becasue whatever protection the island has, from the outside world, goes only so deep into the water.

The boat probably took them to a place where they met up with the sub.

I believe that the magnetic "shield" creates a bubble around the island (like a snow globe) but doesn't extend underwater. Underwater is the only way on or off the island without hitting the anomaly.

What about Micheal and Walt, they supposedly left on a dinky little boat!! So Jack needn't be mad about the sub having been his only way off the island. All he needs to do is make Ben keep his word by giving him the coordinates to get off of the island. If in fact Micheal and Walt did get off the island.

I highly doubt Micheal and Walt are off the island and safe.
Ben is a liar.
Desmond tried to sail away and after 3 days he ended up right back at the island.

Something on or near that island makes navagating away from it impossible.

I believe that the magnetic "shield" creates a bubble around the island (like a snow globe) but doesn't extend underwater. Underwater is the only way on or off the island without hitting the anomaly.

So how did the drug plane, Danielle's boat (if you believe her), Henry's (the real one) balloon, Desmond's boat and the Losties' plane get there?

It seems to me the point of a submarine would be so that the occupants don't have any clear sense of what direction they came in and also to avoid being followed on the way. Also, it allows for using sonar. Although I guess boats could still make use of it. I still say it is to keep the occupants in the dark on which way they went.

Something I thought about last night, and I hope I don't have the chronology wrong, but:

Didn't Walt and Michael leave BEFORE the sky turned purple?

How did that effect their escape? Were they able to escape or did the EMP (?) mess up their electronics on the boat?

I mentioned to my girlfriend yesterday,
"What if they never really went anywhere? It's only been like 2 weeks island time since they left on the boat, maybe they're gonna show back up around the end of the season!"

I've also said in another thread that I would be very surprised if we never see Walt and Michael again, especially considering all of the time that has been spent on their stories.

I believe that the magnetic "shield" creates a bubble around the island (like a snow globe) but doesn't extend underwater. Underwater is the only way on or off the island without hitting the anomaly.


So you do not believe that Michael and Walt got away? Where are they then? Doesn't
that mean that Ben lied about letting them go and thus undermined his leadership? I
guess what I am saying is that the submarine in itself has no significance if you can get
off the island by boat (or even if The Others *believe* you can get off the island by boat,
which is what Ben implies to Michael). He can just tell them: "Hey! No worries! We still
have a boat." Whether he would be lying or not is beside the point.

The Others apparently believe you can leave on a boat, because if they knew Ben was
lying to Michael about it then everything Ben told Locke would be a lie. While this
is a possibility, then that leaves open the door that the whole story about the submarine
being the only way off is also a lie. If we assume everything is a lie, then we can't
have very interesting discussions, so for sake of argument assume what Ben said
is true. Why, then, is the submarine necessary for maintaining the illusion of being
able to leave the island when they still have a boat?

I thought that we had pretty much accepted that some type of magnetic pull makes it difficult/impossible to sail away from the island, and that's why Des wound up right back where he started.

So does that mean that the same magnetic pull or whatever would not equally affect a sub? Isn't it too made of metal??

I don't know, I think I'm gonna go with the "BEN LIES" theory and stay with it. All these subs and wish boxes and promises, it all sounds like more bull from Ben to me.

Well Kate, Jack and Sawyer were still on the dock. So they had at best just left.

Which now makes me wonder if that made it so they could actually get away from the islad.

Something I thought about last night, and I hope I don't have the chronology wrong, but:

Didn't Walt and Michael leave BEFORE the sky turned purple?

How did that effect their escape? Were they able to escape or did the EMP (?) mess up their electronics on the boat?

I mentioned to my girlfriend yesterday,
"What if they never really went anywhere? It's only been like 2 weeks island time since they left on the boat, maybe they're gonna show back up around the end of the season!"

I've also said in another thread that I would be very surprised if we never see Walt and Michael again, especially considering all of the time that has been spent on their stories.

How can they bring Walt back?? The actor is a teen now, how would they explain the huge difference in his age and size if he's been gone only a few weeks or months??

as for Michael and Walt, I assumed the boat took them to the dock.

and what about the supply drops?? there were previous food drops...even near the losties. and that proves that its not a precise science for whoever does the supply drops.
i cannot believe that the sub was the only way off the island. if the work being done there is so important, then why only have a one way to get off the island?? theres gotta be other ways or at least a backup plan.

Well, Walt and Michael will circle the island for a couple of weeks until they come back, just like Desmond did. I guess the beacon that was destroyed did mark the path to the submarine where there whatever it is that keeps the island invisible can be breached.

Haven't the writers said in a podcast that we haven't seen the last of Michael and Walt? And after last night, they would almost have to show back up, since they didn't leave by sub. Henry admitted that he lies and keeps the sub around to make people think they can leave.

So you do not believe that Michael and Walt got away? Where are they then? Doesn't
that mean that Ben lied about letting them go and thus undermined his leadership? I
guess what I am saying is that the submarine in itself has no significance if you can get
off the island by boat (or even if The Others *believe* you can get off the island by boat,
which is what Ben implies to Michael). He can just tell them: "Hey! No worries! We still
have a boat." Whether he would be lying or not is beside the point.

The Others apparently believe you can leave on a boat, because if they knew Ben was
lying to Michael about it then everything Ben told Locke would be a lie. While this
is a possibility, then that leaves open the door that the whole story about the submarine
being the only way off is also a lie. If we assume everything is a lie, then we can't
have very interesting discussions, so for sake of argument assume what Ben said
is true. Why, then, is the submarine necessary for maintaining the illusion of being
able to leave the island when they still have a boat?

my impression was that the island is only able to be found through sonar, because of weird complicated sciency reasons.

my impression was that the island is only able to be found through sonar, because of weird complicated sciency reasons.


Boats can have sonar. But we're talking about *leaving* the island, not finding it.

Well, Walt and Michael will circle the island for a couple of weeks until they come back, just like Desmond did. I guess the beacon that was destroyed did mark the path to the submarine where there whatever it is that keeps the island invisible can be breached.


If Walt and Michael come back, then Ben will be exposed as someone who does
not keep his promises. Ben's main worry (he says) is that The Others have to know
there's a way off the island. Even if Michael and Walt are dead by now (for all we
know Ben secretly blew them up) his charade would still hold up because The Others
have at least one other boat. There is nothing special about the submarine from the
point of view of The Others - or, if there is, then they knew that Ben was a liar when
he let Michael and Walt go.

about the drug plane and danielle's boat and henry's baloon div2n. maybe you can get to the island but once you enter the snowglobe kind of thing there is no way back out unless you go underwater or a certain direction north. but then again, when they found desmond and his boat, he said he went north so maybe walt and michael are doing what desmond did.

Didn't Ben give Walt and Michael coordinates to navigate towards and meet up with someone? That someone could have been the sub. I think the island may be underwater and that is why the sub is the only way off.

I don't believe Michael and Walt ever left the island. If Desmond, an experienced sailor couldn't, how could they? They might be in a third island in the vicinity, they might have been attacked by the submarine and left somewhere as prisoners. Ben couldn't possibly have allowed them to go out, because as he said himself, that would make him look weak before his people. And because Michael would surely raise the alarm about the existence of the island.

Can you imagine a flight with dozens of people presumed dead, airplane completely gone, and out of the blue two people appear months later, talking of a deserted island somewhere, where 40+ other survivors await rescue? Ben couldn't risk it. TV cameras everywhere would threaten the "commitment" to the island. Therefore, Jack and Juliet wouldn't have left, and Michael and Walt didn't.

Maybe it is because a submarine is a long distance vehicle and the boat is not?

How can they bring Walt back?? The actor is a teen now, how would they explain the huge difference in his age and size if he's been gone only a few weeks or months??
What if the "time advances differently on the island" theory is right?
Then Walt could return as a teen, and Michael as an older man.

I definitely don't think Michael and Walt have escaped. Their story is forthcoming, probably sometime next season. And I doubt that it will involve them bringing a rescue party back...that's Penny's job.

I believe that the magnetic "shield" creates a bubble around the island (like a snow globe) but doesn't extend underwater. Underwater is the only way on or off the island without hitting the anomaly.


Or maybe the Island IS somehow underwater with an EM/mysterious force bubble protecting it and hiding it too. Hence the need for a sonar beacon.

That's pretty far out though ... way beyond the realms of explainable science or even pseudo-science as we were promised originally. But then again, so would the black smoke, apparent manifestations of people's memories or desires, miracle healing of injuries, amazing coincidences in the backstories and the ability of so many people to survive the plane crash.

There's something VERY weird about the island and the Others are just another bunch of people who happen to be on it, with no more idea than the Losties about the true nature of what they are living on (except maybe Ben and Locke)

Ok... Somebody help me understand, because I really don't get *where* the sub really is.

So Locke and Alex walk out of the house, go across some bushes and, voila, they're at the docks. Since when was Otherville right next to the sea? Why don't they even have to go through a sonic fence now? Really, it's all getting that skewed and unrealistic, or is it me that missed something?

So how did the drug plane, Danielle's boat (if you believe her), Henry's (the real one) balloon, Desmond's boat and the Losties' plane get there?

It seems to me the point of a submarine would be so that the occupants don't have any clear sense of what direction they came in and also to avoid being followed on the way. Also, it allows for using sonar. Although I guess boats could still make use of it. I still say it is to keep the occupants in the dark on which way they went.

I believe that there was anomaly when the planes, boats and balloons all hit the island...we know that Desmond didn't hit the buttons when flight 815 crashed so maybe something happened each time one of these events happened. But now with the swan destroyed...won't the shield be down as well as the communications?

So you do not believe that Michael and Walt got away? Where are they then? Doesn't
that mean that Ben lied about letting them go and thus undermined his leadership?

The only thing I can think of is maybe Ben gave them the right compass bearing of 325, but when Desmond turned the failsafe key maybe it messed up the compass bearing or magnetic field of some sort. This way Ben didn't knowingly lie, he actually gave them the right compass bearing but did not realize the effects of "the sky turning purple."

Ok... Somebody help me understand, because I really don't get *where* the sub really is.

So Locke and Alex walk out of the house, go across some bushes and, voila, they're at the docks. Since when was Otherville right next to the sea? Why don't they even have to go through a sonic fence now? Really, it's all getting that skewed and unrealistic, or is it me that missed something?

Wouldn't it be something if they actually had 2 submarines? I can see Ben pulling something like this.

Ben says that the submarine is their only way off the island and that with the beacon
turned off there is no way it can ever make it back. However, we know that The Others
have a sailboat and possibly a motorboat. Michael and Walt were able to leave the
island in a boat by following a compass heading. So why couldn't The Others do
the same in the sailboat? What's so special about the submarine? I can think of a
lot of reasons why one might need a submarine, but none of them hold if we also
believe that Michael and Walt made it back home in a regular motorboat.

I was thinking about this during Ben's whole speech to Locke at the end. Unless some explanation is given this represents a pretty big hole in the plot. At least for me.
Let's break it down:
Ben promises to let Jack & Juliette leave the island. He doesn't want to honor the promise but doesn't want to break his word for fear that either scenario will compromise his position of authority. Locke blows up the submarine, making Ben's "every wish come true." Only one problem – he can still honor his promise by sending J & J off the island by boat, which Juliette, Jack and the others all know he has. How does destruction of the sub solve Ben's dilemma?

Maybe the sub is actually a time machine. There is no other way out.

I was thinking about this during Ben's whole speech to Locke at the end. Unless some explanation is given this represents a pretty big hole in the plot. At least for me.
Let's break it down:
Ben promises to let Jack & Juliette leave the island. He doesn't want to honor the promise but doesn't want to break his word for fear that either scenario will compromise his position of authority. Locke blows up the submarine, making Ben's "every wish come true." Only one problem – he can still honor his promise by sending J & J off the island by boat, which Juliette, Jack and the others all know he has. How does destruction of the sub solve Ben's dilemma?


Exactly! From what we know so far, it doesn't. I hope there is an explanation and
that this is not just (more) sloppy writing.

Exactly! From what we know so far, it doesn't. I hope there is an explanation and
that this is not just (more) sloppy writing.

Remember, Patchy said last week that he was brought to the island by submarine. Also that since the underwater locator beacon (I think it was identified as a sonar beacon in 'Enter 77') was no longer operational after the 'event' - electomagnetic pulse, it was no longer possible to come back if you left.


Looks like there is something specific about the island that it requires help for outsiders to find it, but it is findable. Also, a sonar beacon is used - why not a radio transmitter or even something like a lighthouse?

Could time and space around the island be somehow 'bent' to conceal the island? Could it actually all be hidden underwater in some sort of 'bubble' somehow, with only sonar being useful to find it? It's totally into the realms of science fiction but lets face it, so much out-of-whack stuff has now happened that we can't honestly believe that it's all going to be explained with a relatively rational explanation grounded in actual science or even psuedo-science.....

Danielle used the word 'vessel', not 'boat' or 'ship' that she and her team crashed on the rocks and who's 'hull was breached beyond repair'. It's a stretch, but I wonder if it was actually a sub that the others were able to fix? It might explain how Locke knew what he was doing with it, because Danielle told him.

All of the entries to the island except for the sub were damaged coming to the island. The Black Rock is somewhere in the middle of the island. 815 broke up in mid-air. Didn't Desmond's crash happen in a storm? Kelvin made extensive repairs to it. I guess I really don't remember much about Henry Gale's balloon and how it ended up on the island. Lostpedia doesn't make any reference to a crash. But, hey, play along with me here. Danielle describes a storm and devastation beyond repair.

This leads me to this. The snow globe is not impenetrable. But if something is forced through it it will sustain damage. Perhaps the amount of damage is dependant upon the force it hit with. Imagine the re-entry of a space capsule. If it does not enter the atmosphere at exactly the right angle it will either skip off back into space, or break up in re-entry. This is dependant upon the angle.

815 broke up because it hit the electromagnetic snow globe. Storms tossed boats through the field. Henry Gale well...I dunno. Maybe because his movement is so slow he entered unincumbered, or a storm threw him in.

Entry is possible. Sonar does not send the sub through it but merely points the way to the point were entry is possible. Michael and Walt were told to hit bearing 325 and they would find rescue. Perhaps the sonar was on bearing 325.

I never have quite understood the bearing issue. A bearing is only good in relation to its beginning point unless over a very long distance. The farther a ship continues on a certain bearing the more precise that bearing becomes. I've always assumed that the total snow globe thing is a matter of small proportions. But what do I know.

If the point of entry is small then the accuracy of the bearing is crucial. Of course if the exit/entry place is huge then imprecise bearings may be ok.

The sub could have left but could not find its way back with the sonar beacon out of order. Ok so there are no navigators in Ben's group? Boy would I like to go to sea with a crew that couldn't find their way. The sailboat that they have has potentially greater range than the sub but anyone who leaves in it could not return because a sonar beacon is out? Wait didn't he say could not return which is different than can not find their way back.

Being unable to return the the island without the sub and a sonar beacon to guide it means to me that they have to pass through or rather under an area controlled by someone hostile to them. Otherwise a surface ship would do just fine That would mean Michael's course towards rescue was Ben sending him directly towards forces hostile to the Others in a boat known to belong to the Others.:biggrin: Wonder if he survived the rescue? ;)

Ben may feel more secure now that no one can desert his group. But if boats can't return to the island then no more supply ships. I think long term he is in trouble if he told the truth.

When Walt and Michael left, Ben told them to follow certain coordinates and then said something like, "only then you'll find the help you seek" or something weird like that. Sorry I don't remember exact words, but it struck me funny when he said it like, it sounded as if they were going to run into other people who would help them - like maybe a submarine? Or they'd be taken to another station or something. I remember that there was something to what he said that made me think they weren't just going to pop up outside of civilization somewhere.

Remember, Patchy said last week that he was brought to the island by submarine. Also that since the underwater locator beacon (I think it was identified as a sonar beacon in 'Enter 77') was no longer operational after the 'event' - electomagnetic pulse, it was no longer possible to come back if you left.


Looks like there is something specific about the island that it requires help for outsiders to find it, but it is findable. Also, a sonar beacon is used - why not a radio transmitter or even something like a lighthouse?

Could time and space around the island be somehow 'bent' to conceal the island? Could it actually all be hidden underwater in some sort of 'bubble' someh
\ow, with only sonar being useful to find it? It's totally into the realms of science fiction but lets face it, so much out-of-whack stuff has now happened that we can't honestly believe that it's all going to be explained with a relatively rational explanation grounded in actual science or even psuedo-science.....


People keep missing the point here, which is that we are concerned with *OUTBOUND*
transit and not inbound transit.

I don't believe Michael and Walt ever left the island. If Desmond, an experienced sailor couldn't, how could they? They might be in a third island in the vicinity, they might have been attacked by the submarine and left somewhere as prisoners. Ben couldn't possibly have allowed them to go out, because as he said himself, that would make him look weak before his people. And because Michael would surely raise the alarm about the existence of the island.

Can you imagine a flight with dozens of people presumed dead, airplane completely gone, and out of the blue two people appear months later, talking of a deserted island somewhere, where 40+ other survivors await rescue? Ben couldn't risk it. TV cameras everywhere would threaten the "commitment" to the island. Therefore, Jack and Juliet wouldn't have left, and Michael and Walt didn't.


Minor point, but I do NOT think Ben has to worry about Michael and Walt bringing help back to the island. For the simple fact that Michael murdered two people before leaving the island is reason enough to not bring help back to the island.

People keep missing the point here, which is that we are concerned with *OUTBOUND*
transit and not inbound transit.

It's made clear that the sonar beacon is required for the return journey. It's also made clear that it's not needed to leave the Island. However, looks like the sub is required for the outbound journey. It's portrayed as being the only way off of the Island. They also have Desmond's yaucht and at least one motor boat so there must be something specific about the submarine that allows it to be able to leave the island whereas a yaucht or motorboat can't. The only thing that I can think of is that the sub can go underwater.... Maybe the island is in some sort of 'bubble' but it's above water, however the weak point where it's possible to enter/leave is somewhere deep below the surface of the sea.

Maybe the directions that Ben told Mike to get off to take him home will be leading him to another Island and that they are being held captive.
I that Damon and Carlton said

that they would be back next season

Not sure if to spoiler that or not so I did

Ben said they find 'rescue'. This could mean that they would find the sub and someone would take them home.

The sub is NOT the only way off the island. Michael and Walt's boat proves that. HOWEVER, the sub is the only way BACK to the island when the underwater sonar beacon is working. So, sure, Jack and Juliette could take one of the other boats (Desmond's sailboat "Elizabeth" or the large boat used to travel between Alcatraz and the main island), but then that boat would be gone and would not bea ble to return. Quite a cost!

Why is it that no boats could intentionally travel from the outside world to the island? The magnetic forces of the anomaly prevent accurate navigation.

The conflict is that Ben tells Locke that the sub provides hope for the not-so-committed that they can leave the island at any point, and we know there are other boats (t least two) that have been mentioned/shown. But I think the real point is leave AND return. We know that the sub is the only thing that can find the island purposefully.

It's made clear that the sonar beacon is required for the return journey. It's also made clear that it's not needed to leave the Island. However, looks like the sub is required for the outbound journey. It's portrayed as being the only way off of the Island. They also have Desmond's yaucht and at least one motor boat so there must be something specific about the submarine that allows it to be able to leave the island whereas a yaucht or motorboat can't. The only thing that I can think of is that the sub can go underwater.... Maybe the island is in some sort of 'bubble' but it's above water, however the weak point where it's possible to enter/leave is somewhere deep below the surface of the sea.


Except that, as far as The Others know, Michael and Walt left the island by
boat. That may or may not be true in reality, but for Ben's purposes it is enough
if they think it is.

There are many boats and many ways onto the island. We know you can fly onto it. Eg the birds, balloon, food drop, drug plane, losties. We know you can find the island by boat, eg Black Rock, Other boat #1 (given to Walt), Other boat #2 use to come back from the other island, Desmonds sail boat, and if you believe her story French woman’s boat. For an island nobody knows how t get to it sure seems like it found way to often.
i have a questions for you if the sub is the only was to find the island how did the food drop happen?

From my basic understanding of Sonar it is a load ping bouncing off of objects in the ocean which can be heard by boat, sub or a plane. So any thing that can be use to travel can find the island.

I thnk the coordinates that Michael an Walt were given led them to the submarine which inturn brought them home.

HENRY: I'm not happy about the arrangement that was made with you Michael, but we got more than we bargained for when Walt joined us, so I suppose this is what's best. And you let me go, set me free—you lived up to your word. We live up to our word, too. Do you know how to drive a boat?

MICHAEL: Yeah, I can drive a boat.

HENRY: Good, then you're going to take this boat and follow a compass bearing of 325, and if you do that exactly, you and your son will find rescue.

MICHAEL: That's it? I follow the bearing and me and my son get rescued?

HENRY: Yes.

MICHAEL: How do you know I won't tell people about where I was?

HENRY: Maybe you will, maybe you won't. But it won't matter. Once you leave, you'll never be able to get back here. And my hunch is you won't say a word to anybody because if you do, people will find out what you did to get your son back.

hmmm.

i just realized something.

how do they even have a sub there?
look at this screen cap of otherville.
http://www.lostpedia.com/wiki/Image:Utopiavillezoomout1.jpg

do you see any water?
the villiage is on the back of a mountain.

maybe i jsut havent looked into it enough. but it doesnt make sense right now.

How can they bring Walt back?? The actor is a teen now, how would they explain the huge difference in his age and size if he's been gone only a few weeks or months??

I honestly have no idea, but the good thing is, that's not my job. I agree it would be difficult, but it would be hard for me to stomach if they spent that much time on Walt and Michael and then they just leave. Just like that. I, for one, would really like to know more about Walt's powers and what they did to him when they had him captive. I suppose one of The Others could get the info out there through dialog, but it would be much more compelling to actually see it for ourselves.

If you read the transcripts carefully, you'll see that no one ever promises Michael he can go home:

From 3 Minutes
MS. KLUGH: There's been a development since you came here, Michael. One of our people was captured by yours.
MICHAEL: So, go get him back.
MS. KLUGH: We can't do that. But you can. And if you do, we'll let you and Walt go free.
MICHAEL: Yeah. I know them. If I do all this -- if I do what you say...
MS. KLUGH: You get your son back. You both go free.
MICHAEL: Then I want the boat.

From LTDA
GALE: ...We live up to our word, too. Do you know how to drive a boat?
MICHAEL: Yeah, I can drive a boat.
GALE: Good, then you're going to take this boat and follow a compass bearing of 325, and if you do that exactly, you and your son will find rescue.
.....
MICHAEL: How do you know I won't tell people about where I was?
GALE: Maybe you will, maybe you won't. But it won't matter. Once you leave, you'll never be able to get back here. And my hunch is you won't say a word to anybody because if you do, people will find out what you did to get your son back.
___________________

Again, no one told Michael he was going back to the "real world." They just told him they would let him go free and that he'd find "rescue"--whatever that means. Michael asked for the boat assuming that's what he needed to get home. They give him the boat knowing full-well that it will do Michael no good.

So technically, Ben did keep his word to Michael. My guess is that there's another island miles and miles away (but still within the boudaries of the dome or whatever is cloaking the islands) on compass bearing 325. They probably put just enough gas in the boat to get him to that island. Michael and Walt land there and I believe they've been hanging out there ever since.

Regardless, this does help support the notion that one needs to sub to get completely off the island and back to the outside world. Even Juliet confirms in The Glass Ballerina that a boat will do no good getting off the island:

COLLEEN: Brian followed him back to the shore and they have a sailboat.
BEN: How?!
COLLEEN: I have no idea.
JULIET: So they have a boat -- sailing in circles will keep them busy.

Michael and Walt are most likely floating around until we've forgotten what Walt looks like and they can swap him out for a younger Walt look alike. Then they'll wash ashore. This of course will cause tremendous speculation that some strange mystical thing has happened to Walt.

Desmond sailed around and around and around the island. No surprise here considering we all know the man can put away the hootch big time and was probably drunk out of his mind the whole time like when the losties found him on his boat.

We know planes can enter. We also know someone is dropping food and we highly suspect via plane. It's fairly safe to assume the folks who drop off food and supplies leave to get more for the next drop.

I think the whole thing Ben told John was rubbish (about the sub being the only way on and off the island). This is what Ben wants him to think. Alex told John as they walked to the sub that her father (Ben) was not to be trusted (or something to that affect).

John thought he's won one against Ben. He did not. Ben won yet again.

If Walt and Michael come back, then Ben will be exposed as someone who does
not keep his promises. Ben's main worry (he says) is that The Others have to know
there's a way off the island. Even if Michael and Walt are dead by now (for all we
know Ben secretly blew them up) his charade would still hold up because The Others
have at least one other boat. There is nothing special about the submarine from the
point of view of The Others - or, if there is, then they knew that Ben was a liar when
he let Michael and Walt go.

Actually, that's not exactly accurate. Ben and the Others kept their word with Michael. If you read over the transcripts from 3 Minutes and LTDA, you'll see that no one ever told Michael he'd be getting off the island. Bea promises Michael that they'll let him and Walt "go free." That could mean any number of things. She could be taking about letting him go free from the Other's camp. It doesn't necessarily mean he's going home.

Then Michael says he wants the boat. The Others know that a boat won't get your anywhere (as confirmed by Juliet in The Glass Ballerina) so they give him the boat. I have a feeling that the 325 compass bearing will lead Michael and Walt directly to another island in the series of islands they're stuck on and that the Others gave him just enough gas to get to the island. That's where Michael and Walt have been.

So even if Michael and Walt show up on the beach one day, Ben's not caught in any lie. He chose his words very carefully, he never promised Michael he'd go home or even that he'd get off the island. He agreed to let them go free and he agreed to give him a boat. And that's exactly what he did.

My question about the sub is where was it docked at? It looked to be in a lagoon of some sort. It didn't take John and Alex all that long to walk there. But from the first picture we saw of Otherville (sorry I don't have a screen cap), the one that zoomed out and showed the village on the island after the plane crashed, there was no lagoon or anything close to the village.

The sub is NOT the only way off the island. Michael and Walt's boat proves that. HOWEVER, the sub is the only way BACK to the island when the underwater sonar beacon is working. So, sure, Jack and Juliette could take one of the other boats (Desmond's sailboat "Elizabeth" or the large boat used to travel between Alcatraz and the main island), but then that boat would be gone and would not bea ble to return. Quite a cost!

Why is it that no boats could intentionally travel from the outside world to the island? The magnetic forces of the anomaly prevent accurate navigation.

How does Michael's boat prove that the sub isn't the only way off the island? Do you know where Michael and Walt are? For all we know they're sailing around the island stuck in a snow globe like Desmond was. We have no idea that Michael got anywhere.

I do believe that the sub is the only way off the island. In fact, Juliet implies this as well in The Glass Ballerina:

JULIET: So they have a boat -- sailing in circles will keep them busy.

She knows that a boat of any kind won't get them off the island.

I've posted this a couple of times in the other Sub-being-the-only-way-off-the-island threads, but Ben and the Others never promised Michael he'd go home or get off the island. In fact, Michael never asks them to go hom. Bea promises to let them "go free" and then Michael asks for the boat--assuming that what he needs to get off the island. I think they gave up the boat so freely b/c they knew that it wouldn't get him anywhere. I agree with someone else who said that Michael was led (via 325) right to another island miles and miles away and has probably been there ever since.

But again, we have no proof that Michael got anywhere. It was never promised to him or even mentioned by any of the players (Michael, the Others, etc).

Actually, that's not exactly accurate. Ben and the Others kept their word with Michael. If you read over the transcripts from 3 Minutes and LTDA, you'll see that no one ever told Michael he'd be getting off the island. Bea promises Michael that they'll let him and Walt "go free." That could mean any number of things. She could be taking about letting him go free from the Other's camp. It doesn't necessarily mean he's going home.

Then Michael says he wants the boat. The Others know that a boat won't get your anywhere (as confirmed by Juliet in The Glass Ballerina) so they give him the boat. I have a feeling that the 325 compass bearing will lead Michael and Walt directly to another island in the series of islands they're stuck on and that the Others gave him just enough gas to get to the island. That's where Michael and Walt have been.

So even if Michael and Walt show up on the beach one day, Ben's not caught in any lie. He chose his words very carefully, he never promised Michael he'd go home or even that he'd get off the island. He agreed to let them go free and he agreed to give him a boat. And that's exactly what he did.


Well, this is a good post, but I'd have to reread the dialogue.

The only purposeful way because of the electromagnetic properties of the island. Radar and compass are clearly untrustworthy therefore purposely finding the island again would be impossible.

Regardless, this does help support the notion that one needs to sub to get completely off the island and back to the outside world. Even Juliet confirms in The Glass Ballerina that a boat will do no good getting off the island:

COLLEEN: Brian followed him back to the shore and they have a sailboat.
BEN: How?!
COLLEEN: I have no idea.
JULIET: So they have a boat -- sailing in circles will keep them busy.


It does not necssarily follow that a boat 'will do no good getting off the island' from
Juliet's statement. It might take a boat combined with some special knowledge
Juliet assumes that the Losties do not have.

Hmm well remember that Ben gave Michael a certain heading to follow and that would lead them home. Then when Jack and Juliet where going to leave, Ben stated that they would be able to leave the island, but due to the fact that Locke destroyed that relay building they would never be able to come back. Point: perhaps they can leave with the right heading, but can't technically return

I think the sub is the only way off the island because you need certain electrical equipment in order to get off. Ben confirmed that their communications breakdown meant the sub couldn't come back. I'd imagine those are linked.

Well, this is a good post, but I'd have to reread the dialogue.

Here ya go:

From 3 Minutes
MS. KLUGH: There's been a development since you came here, Michael. One of our people was captured by yours.
MICHAEL: So, go get him back.
MS. KLUGH: We can't do that. But you can. And if you do, we'll let you and Walt go free.
MICHAEL: Yeah. I know them. If I do all this -- if I do what you say...
MS. KLUGH: You get your son back. You both go free.
MICHAEL: Then I want the boat.

From LTDA
GALE: ...We live up to our word, too. Do you know how to drive a boat?
MICHAEL: Yeah, I can drive a boat.
GALE: Good, then you're going to take this boat and follow a compass bearing of 325, and if you do that exactly, you and your son will find rescue.
.....
MICHAEL: How do you know I won't tell people about where I was?
GALE: Maybe you will, maybe you won't. But it won't matter. Once you leave, you'll never be able to get back here. And my hunch is you won't say a word to anybody because if you do, people will find out what you did to get your son back.

From The Glass Ballerina:
COLLEEN: Brian followed him back to the shore and they have a sailboat.
BEN: How?!
COLLEEN: I have no idea.
JULIET: So they have a boat -- sailing in circles will keep them busy.
100%
Hmm well remember that Ben gave Michael a certain heading to follow and that would lead them home.

This is an assumption. It was never stated on the show that Michael would be going home.

Then when Jack and Juliet where going to leave, Ben stated that they would be able to leave the island, but due to the fact that Locke destroyed that relay building they would never be able to come back. Point: perhaps they can leave with the right heading, but can't technically return

Locke blowing up the Flame isn't was caused the sonar beacon to stop working. The EMP (purple sky) knocked out the sonar beacon.

About the Michael and Walt theories... What compass heading would Alcatraz have been on?

Just a nit pick but after reading through this thread I felt someone should mention that while a radar unit, compass and sonar buoy are nice aids to navigation, they are not requirements. The magnetic problem has an effect on some types of navigation not all types of navigation. So to me the required use of a sub and a sonar buoy indicates they are dealing with a return problem above and beyond the ability to navigate back to the island.

If you read the transcripts carefully, you'll see that no one ever promises Michael he can go home:

From 3 Minutes
MS. KLUGH: There's been a development since you came here, Michael. One of our people was captured by yours.
MICHAEL: So, go get him back.
MS. KLUGH: We can't do that. But you can. And if you do, we'll let you and Walt go free.
MICHAEL: Yeah. I know them. If I do all this -- if I do what you say...
MS. KLUGH: You get your son back. You both go free.
MICHAEL: Then I want the boat.

From LTDA
GALE: ...We live up to our word, too. Do you know how to drive a boat?
MICHAEL: Yeah, I can drive a boat.
GALE: Good, then you're going to take this boat and follow a compass bearing of 325, and if you do that exactly, you and your son will find rescue.
.....
MICHAEL: How do you know I won't tell people about where I was?
GALE: Maybe you will, maybe you won't. But it won't matter. Once you leave, you'll never be able to get back here. And my hunch is you won't say a word to anybody because if you do, people will find out what you did to get your son back.
___________________

Again, no one told Michael he was going back to the "real world." They just told him they would let him go free and that he'd find "rescue"--whatever that means. Michael asked for the boat assuming that's what he needed to get home. They give him the boat knowing full-well that it will do Michael no good.

So technically, Ben did keep his word to Michael.

This is a problem, because Ben made no such bargain. It was someone else, possibly Ms. Klugh. As I recall (and I'm sure those of you with transcript access can help here), Ben told Michael that he was not happy with the deal that had been struck with him regarding their "freedom," but that he had to abide by it, because, I guess, they are such "good" people, or somehing. Anyway, one could say Ben was left some semantic "wiggle room," but it was not Ben's offer in the first place.

#1 Ben ordered Mike and Walt to travel NORTH...and they would find help.

#2. If the plane fly for 6 hours..it could travel 3000 miles or so.

#3. If the beachcraft plane fly south...and refueld in South Africa, it could make it a pretty far distance. After refueling as well.

#4. Henry Gales balloon. From what I gather..these thing fly in the stratosphere.

#6. Polar bears?

#7. Magnetism?

#8. Brazilians in the arctic in listening stations?

#9. The need for a sub to travel to and from the island?

maybe all this adds up to the fact that the reason you need a sub to leave the island...is becuase you have to travel under the ice to get there.

I think the important part to look at is that Ben said the sub wouldn't be able to come back. I think that there are a number of ways on and off the island. I think Ben gave Mike and Walt the route off the island. However, I think only the sub is the way onto the island.

I think the island moves and the sub was programed to find the island. without the communication devices there is no way to find the island, that doesn't mean you can't get out. You just can't get back.

Ice? no offense but where did that come from? They are in the tropics as far as i can tell. From my understanding they are probably somewhere below Asia perhaps? if they go north, I don't think there is any ice that way.
100%
Actually now that I think about it why in the world should we trust Ben? He probably wants everyone to believe that is the only way back on the island so they give up hope. Locke probably knows that Ben is lying and that is the reason he destroyed it. This way the others have one less advantage. Just a thought

Just a nit pick but after reading through this thread I felt someone should mention that while a radar unit, compass and sonar buoy are nice aids to navigation, they are not requirements. The magnetic problem has an effect on some types of navigation not all types of navigation. So to me the required use of a sub and a sonar buoy indicates they are dealing with a return problem above and beyond the ability to navigate back to the island.

Good points, and in fact given that you're on an island with a magnetic anomaly, compass would probably be a poor choice. Unfortunately for them the North Star isn't visible in the southern hemisphere (if that's really where they are) but I'm sure some sort of celestial navigation is possible.

I was wondering if maybe the sonar beacon is necessary to guide you out, as well as in -- since your compass heading is going to change as you get further from the island, if you stay on course. Or stay the same if you veer off course in some sort of arc I assume...

Speaking of stars, how many posts does it take to get off the lousy tarmac, anyway? :-)

just wanted to get this off quick before i forget it and i think the magnetic properties of the island is what makes them come back think about it the metal on desmonds boat is what pulled him back after the wind stopped and the sails where of no use the field slowly drew him back and im thinking now maybe this is why the rutter (partly metal or all metal cant remember broke of ad the rafts was sailing away from the island...?????

just another theory...

damn just wondered why was the sub a diesel sub...? i definitely dont think that was a nuclear sub unless someone can prove me wrong...? but im thinkin there would have to be a specific reason its not nuclear and maybe its a specially designed to resist the islands magnetic properties... and im pretty sure the island has magnetic properties due to swan hatch/ messed up compass from first season...back to the sub thinking maybe made water and magnetic proof properties... i remember back to a story i was readin bout where supposedly einstein and some other scientists were doing experiments just after the abomb times on degaussing on a large scale to wipe out enemy radars and render warships invisible(except eyesight) and they pumped mass electricity through the ship in the water and supposedly it "warped thru time"... and now im wonderin bout the manhattan projects... gotta read up... oh yeah there was teenage mutant ninja turtle manhattan project... ha that game was hype... peace


just read this thought it was interestin never knew nuclear subs were around so long
"The end of World War II came with the dropping of the atomic bomb at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. This brought upon the nuclear age. In the 1950's, nuclear power and nuclear engines were beginning to make their appearance. It allowed submarines to stay submerged for longer periods of time because, unlike combustion engines, they did not have to surface often to get air."

off a site on sub warfare i googled

This is a problem, because Ben made no such bargain. It was someone else, possibly Ms. Klugh. As I recall (and I'm sure those of you with transcript access can help here), Ben told Michael that he was not happy with the deal that had been struck with him regarding their "freedom," but that he had to abide by it, because, I guess, they are such "good" people, or somehing. Anyway, one could say Ben was left some semantic "wiggle room," but it was not Ben's offer in the first place.

Here's the transcript from that part of LTDA:

GALE: I'm not happy about the arrangement that was made with you Michael, but we got more than we bargained for when Walt joined us, so I suppose this is what's best. And you let me go, set me free—you lived up to your word. We live up to our word, too. Do you know how to drive a boat?

just wondered why was the sub a diesel sub...? i definitely dont think that was a nuclear sub unless someone can prove me wrong...? but im thinkin there would have to be a specific reason its not nuclear and maybe its a specially designed to resist the islands magnetic properties... Well the Nautilus was launched in 1954 so nuclear subs have been around a while but most countries are rather tight about turning even a junked one loose plus they are very spendy and tend to be larger than the sub we saw. Diesel subs on the other hand can be purchased as surplus and are still being made and launched. The Other's sub looks like WW II era to me. By the way a diesel sub can go a fair distance underwater if they use a snorkel although for total underwater work I believe they use battery powered electric motors.

Ben had to follow the agreement with Michael or renounce the actions of his lieutenants who made the deal which would weaken his power.

The biggest problem I have with the idea that the sub is not the only way off the island is then why didn't Juliet just leave?

If there's a secret "portal" or whatever you want to call it at compass bearing 325 from the Pala Ferry point of origin, then it would be awfully easy for Juliet and what ever Others who want to join her to get off the island. Juliet clearly wants to go home. Both her and Ben have implied that some of the Others also want to go home. So Juliet and company steal a boat, cut the gas line on the other boats so they can't be followed, drive to the Pala Ferry pier and head out at compass bearing 325.

If the sub was the only way off the island, then it would make more sense as to way Juliet and the Others who want to leave are still there: they don't know how to pilot a sub. But many people know how to drive a boat.

The 325 isn't much a secret considering Ben said it front of everyone when he told Michael. So many of the Others and a few of the Losties know about the compass bearing. If 325 and a boat gets you off the island, don't you think Ben would've been a little more discreet with that special information? People on Lost aren't usually so free with their information sharing.

The only purposeful way because of the electromagnetic properties of the island. Radar and compass are clearly untrustworthy therefore purposely finding the island again would be impossible.

Unless you just used a common-or-garden GPS. If the island is in a definite physical location, you only need a GPS to find it.

If it's so difficult to locate then there must be some sort of 'cloaking' effect going on because of the weird forces possessed by the Island preventing physical travel to the island from outside. In this case you are looking for a small chink in the shield surrounding it.

Maybe the chink lies quite a distance underwater in the sea off the island - hence the need for a sonar beacon and a sub. If we go even further into fantasy territory, the island may not exist in our reality (inside a bubble of it's own time/space) with just a small underwater portal to the real world.

This reminds me very much of the Mist of Avalon. Well, not the book, but how it was portrayed in Gargoyles animation. How you would get in a boat, speak the words, enshrouded in mist, and eventually drift to and find your way to Avalon.

Well, it kinda makes sense with the theme of the show. Atlantis, Avalon, Mu, Bermuda Triangle. I would not be surprised if this was the "place" that inspired all those other legends.

Ok... Somebody help me understand, because I really don't get *where* the sub really is.

So Locke and Alex walk out of the house, go across some bushes and, voila, they're at the docks. Since when was Otherville right next to the sea? Why don't they even have to go through a sonic fence now? Really, it's all getting that skewed and unrealistic, or is it me that missed something?

I'm thinking a lagoon with underground comunication to the sea perhaps?

If you read the transcripts carefully, you'll see that no one ever promises Michael he can go home:

From 3 Minutes
MS. KLUGH: There's been a development since you came here, Michael. One of our people was captured by yours.
MICHAEL: So, go get him back.
MS. KLUGH: We can't do that. But you can. And if you do, we'll let you and Walt go free.
MICHAEL: Yeah. I know them. If I do all this -- if I do what you say...
MS. KLUGH: You get your son back. You both go free.
MICHAEL: Then I want the boat.

From LTDA
GALE: ...We live up to our word, too. Do you know how to drive a boat?
MICHAEL: Yeah, I can drive a boat.
GALE: Good, then you're going to take this boat and follow a compass bearing of 325, and if you do that exactly, you and your son will find rescue.
.....
MICHAEL: How do you know I won't tell people about where I was?
GALE: Maybe you will, maybe you won't. But it won't matter. Once you leave, you'll never be able to get back here. And my hunch is you won't say a word to anybody because if you do, people will find out what you did to get your son back.
___________________

Again, no one told Michael he was going back to the "real world." They just told him they would let him go free and that he'd find "rescue"--whatever that means. Michael asked for the boat assuming that's what he needed to get home. They give him the boat knowing full-well that it will do Michael no good.

So technically, Ben did keep his word to Michael. My guess is that there's another island miles and miles away (but still within the boudaries of the dome or whatever is cloaking the islands) on compass bearing 325. They probably put just enough gas in the boat to get him to that island. Michael and Walt land there and I believe they've been hanging out there ever since.

Regardless, this does help support the notion that one needs to sub to get completely off the island and back to the outside world. Even Juliet confirms in The Glass Ballerina that a boat will do no good getting off the island:

COLLEEN: Brian followed him back to the shore and they have a sailboat.
BEN: How?!
COLLEEN: I have no idea.
JULIET: So they have a boat -- sailing in circles will keep them busy.

I agree with everything you said here. Ben kept his promise to Michael, only we tought the promise was something else entirely.

If you read the transcripts carefully, you'll see that no one ever promises Michael he can go home:

From 3 Minutes
MS. KLUGH: There's been a development since you came here, Michael. One of our people was captured by yours.
MICHAEL: So, go get him back.
MS. KLUGH: We can't do that. But you can. And if you do, we'll let you and Walt go free.
MICHAEL: Yeah. I know them. If I do all this -- if I do what you say...
MS. KLUGH: You get your son back. You both go free.
MICHAEL: Then I want the boat.

From LTDA
GALE: ...We live up to our word, too. Do you know how to drive a boat?
MICHAEL: Yeah, I can drive a boat.
GALE: Good, then you're going to take this boat and follow a compass bearing of 325, and if you do that exactly, you and your son will find rescue.
.....
MICHAEL: How do you know I won't tell people about where I was?
GALE: Maybe you will, maybe you won't. But it won't matter. Once you leave, you'll never be able to get back here. And my hunch is you won't say a word to anybody because if you do, people will find out what you did to get your son back.
___________________

Again, no one told Michael he was going back to the "real world." They just told him they would let him go free and that he'd find "rescue"--whatever that means. Michael asked for the boat assuming that's what he needed to get home. They give him the boat knowing full-well that it will do Michael no good.

So technically, Ben did keep his word to Michael. My guess is that there's another island miles and miles away (but still within the boudaries of the dome or whatever is cloaking the islands) on compass bearing 325. They probably put just enough gas in the boat to get him to that island. Michael and Walt land there and I believe they've been hanging out there ever since.

Regardless, this does help support the notion that one needs to sub to get completely off the island and back to the outside world. Even Juliet confirms in The Glass Ballerina that a boat will do no good getting off the island:

COLLEEN: Brian followed him back to the shore and they have a sailboat.
BEN: How?!
COLLEEN: I have no idea.
JULIET: So they have a boat -- sailing in circles will keep them busy.

Thanks for all this! I always forget that Michael's the one that asked for the boat. Great observations.