Well, I'm not a Jater, but I loved the scenes with Jack and Kate. They really care about each other a lot. It was very moving. Very close to how moving the amazing glass wall scene was.

But anyway.... My interpretations.... Jack stayed with the Others and was just biding his time until the sub was ready to go or something. I think he had to wait for Ben to have recovered a certain amount. Since Tom is friendly (ha!) to Jack and Juliet, he played football with him, but it wasn't like Jack completely integrated himself into the group. Doesn't look like he was brainwashed or drugged. It was a simple as what was originally stated. Jack cut a deal.
But he WAS going to come back for Kate, at least, and probably the whole group. This is good, because Jack is the hero, and it would have been really hard to see him as abandoning the group or becoming an Other (even if that would be more interesting, lol).

So, now that the sub is gone, where do Jack and Kate stand? Who knows. Because Juliet is there too. And Sawyer is back at the camp. And Kate wanted to know if Jack knew that she'd had sex with Sawyer. Yikes.

And are all of them going to be captives in Otherville or will they be allowed to leave? Or escape?

Well, I'm not a Jater, but I loved the scenes with Jack and Kate. They really care about each other a lot. It was very moving. Very close to how moving the amazing glass wall scene was.

But anyway.... My interpretations.... Jack stayed with the Others and was just biding his time until the sub was ready to go or something. I think he had to wait for Ben to have recovered a certain amount. Since Tom is friendly (ha!) to Jack and Juliet, he played football with him, but it wasn't like Jack completely integrated himself into the group. Doesn't look like he was brainwashed or drugged. It was a simple as what was originally stated. Jack cut a deal.
But he WAS going to come back for Kate, at least, and probably the whole group. This is good, because Jack is the hero, and it would have been really hard to see him as abandoning the group or becoming an Other (even if that would be more interesting, lol).

So, now that the sub is gone, where do Jack and Kate stand? Who knows. Because Juliet is there too. And Sawyer is back at the camp. And Kate wanted to know if Jack knew that she'd had sex with Sawyer. Yikes.

And are all of them going to be captives in Otherville or will they be allowed to leave? Or escape?

I have no idea where things are going to go from here... I've heard a few spoilers about the next few characters, but nothing concrete really. But I think it will be interesting to see!

And I think you're dead on with Jack's motivations. He cooperated with the Others and played football with them, yes, but it was all for the express purpose of trying to get off the island. And getting off the island was only so he could find rescue and come back for everyone else. I thought when Ben asked if Jack would leave if Sayid and Kate were left with the Others and he said no shows that he motives were selfless and he was only trying to help the Losties.

But I also just loved the scenes with Kate and Jack. Their scenes together this season have been so few, but they've all been so powerful and emotional. I'm interested to see how Juliet's going to throw a wrench into them.

How Jack or Juliet could believe for one moment that Ben would keep his word. . . .

I guess they figured, as Ben told Locke, that breaking his promise would lead to Big Trouble with his people. Still, to BELIEVE this man. . . .

He only seems to tell the truth when he thinks that is the best way to get what he wants done, done. (I believe him about the communications and the sub not being able to get back and that his leadership is on shaky ground while he's in that wheelchair.)

My inclination is to believe that the losties will be let go because John Locke will want them released. . .and right now, Ben will do whatever John wants. Why? Because Ben and John are both on that Island. But John is NOT in a wheelchair, and Ben IS. Ben wants the "communion" with the Island John has--before he finds himself toppled from power!

But we shall see. . . .

I definitely don't think that Jack was brainwashed, but it did seem like he was filled in a little bit about what the Others are about and more empathic to them. I thought the scene with Kate was kind of odd.

And what did Kate mean when she asked him, "what did they tell you?" Was she really wondering if he knew about the sex?

Jack and Juliet do seem pretty tight. What is going on there?

I wanna see a Jackback of Othersville!!

And Kate wanted to know if Jack knew that she'd had sex with Sawyer. Yikes.




I totally agree with everything that you wrote. And I was really wondering about the last couple of questions too. Like, what now?

But as to the part I quoted, I think that is totally clear to Kate that Jack knows what she did with Sawyer. Of course, she just thinks someone told him something (she might even think that she can lie about it), but she has no idea that he actually saw it for himself. The part about the whole thing that bothered me is that she seemed so disturbed to know that Jack knows. Poor Sawyer. I hope he stands his ground with her when /if they are reunited, and doesn't apologize for anything! :mad:

That's a really good idea, STH! Ben won't let anyone go until Locke wans to go, too.....
And Ben doesn't want that to ever happen...
until something happens.
And we don't know what that is. We don't know why Ben wans to be on the island forever. And until we know why, I don't think we'll ever know if that same reason will make Locke continue to want to stay on the island or leave, and what he'll do about it.

S4 will be the season if the Island's secrets, I've been thinking for awhile. And maybe we won't find out tile then.....

I believe there's going to be a lot of expositional "hanging around" in Otherville while everyone works through what happened. Obviously, Jack/Kate/Juliet will hold animosity toward Locke for blowing up the sub, but Ben seems like he will be on Locke's side. Meanwhile, the Danielle and Alex reunion is poised to occur within a few short episodes. Unless, of course, Danielle or Alex is the alleged "game changer", although I think the general consensus is that Cooper has taken that spot, for the time being anyway. There is a reason that this guy's initials are A.C. 'Cause he's COLD.

How Cooper will react to this situation, God only knows. I'm going to assume for now that he is not a manifestation, he is not Smokey or any of that. Because what fun would that be? Chances are that as a person, his reaction is going to be "Okay, I want the F out of here." And since Locke is pretty much taking all chances of that away, Anthony will be on the side of Jack-Kate-Juliet against Locke-Ben.

I can't help but consider the possibility that Locke was merely pretending to be surprised to see his Dad (in a similar vein to the speculation that "Dad?" on the computer was not Walt). Maybe Locke knew all along that his Dad was there, Ben told him back in S2, and that's why he has been cutting off all escape. It's either that or something else happened in "Further Instructions" that we are not yet fully aware of.

As for Sawyer, well, based on the previews it sounds like he's going to be busy with certain other things next week, so his place in this particular situation has little relevance for the time being, although it would lend itself to the plot if Cooper were sent back with the Losties back to the beach, where perhaps some connections could be established by discussion, rather than by flashback crossovers. Something's going on with him and Christian too.

I definitely don't think that Jack was brainwashed, but it did seem like he was filled in a little bit about what the Others are about and more empathic to them. I thought the scene with Kate was kind of odd.

And what did Kate mean when she asked him, "what did they tell you?" Was she really wondering if he knew about the sex?

Jack and Juliet do seem pretty tight. What is going on there?

I wanna see a Jackback of Othersville!!

Oooo Jackback of Otherville would be amazing! Great idea! Like 3 Minutes or Maternity Leave. Sweet. Would make a Jackback finally interesting again. ;)

I do think that Jack has become empathetic to the Others, but maybe just Juliet, Tom and Alex. I mean, he doesn't exactly seem empathetic to Ben, even if he did help him recover from surgery, etc....
Maybe he is just empathetic to the people who seem trapped there by Ben? I don't think Jack knows yet what the Others are doing there. Or.... maybe he does. Juliet might have told him. I have no idea.
Maybe he knows the basics, but I don't know if Juliet even knows Ben's dealings and motivations, so how much could Jack have really figured out?

I totally agree with everything that you wrote. And I was really wondering about the last couple of questions too. Like, what now?

But as to the part I quoted, I think that is totally clear to Kate that Jack knows what she did with Sawyer. Of course, she just thinks someone told him something (she might even think that she can lie about it), but she has no idea that he actually saw it for himself. The part about the whole thing that bothered me is that she seemed so disturbed to know that Jack knows. Poor Sawyer. I hope he stands his ground with her when /if they are reunited, and doesn't apologize for anything! :mad:

Hm, well, until this episode, I don't think Kate knew that Jack new about the sex. And she certainly doesn't know that he saw the post-coital cuddling. It was weird how upset she was that Jack knows. I mean, I guess she really does love both of them and just doesn't want to hurt them? Or she loves Sawyer and just didn't to hurt Jack? But man, she is totally hurting Sawyer this way too.
Damn, I feel bad for that woman. It's all get so messed up.And now I'm feeling all bad for Jack and Juliet too.... and poor Sawyer back at the beach.... Yikes!

Hm, well, until this episode, I don't think Kate knew that Jack new about the sex. And she certainly doesn't know that he saw the post-coital cuddling. It was weird how upset she was that Jack knows. I mean, I guess she really does love both of them and just doesn't want to hurt them? Or she loves Sawyer and just didn't to hurt Jack? But man, she is totally hurting Sawyer this way too.
Damn, I feel bad for that woman. It's all get so messed up.And now I'm feeling all bad for Jack and Juliet too.... and poor Sawyer back at the beach.... Yikes!

Yeah, at this point, one of the guys is going to get hurt. I do think they are both in love with Kate. As for Kate's upset about Jack knowing, I think it does indicate she loves him. She wouldn't react that way if Sayid figured it out, for example. I don't mean that as a shipper statement or anything really, just that this is a messed up triangle and Kate does care about both and it's up to TPTB to decide who she ultimately ends up with.

I hope in the Jack flashback (which will hopefully be this season..rumors are spreading) there will be parts of his stay in Othersville (which TPTB want us to call it New Otherton or some crap)

Please spoilerfont any comments about future episode that aren't pure speculation.

I agree with you, Zoe, about the triangle. Sigh.

Oooo Jackback of Otherville would be amazing! Great idea! Like 3 Minutes or Maternity Leave. Sweet. Would make a Jackback finally interesting again. ;)

I do think that Jack has become empathetic to the Others, but maybe just Juliet, Tom and Alex. I mean, he doesn't exactly seem empathetic to Ben, even if he did help him recover from surgery, etc....
Maybe he is just empathetic to the people who seem trapped there by Ben? I don't think Jack knows yet what the Others are doing there. Or.... maybe he does. Juliet might have told him. I have no idea.
Maybe he knows the basics, but I don't know if Juliet even knows Ben's dealings and motivations, so how much could Jack have really figured out?



Yeah, I suppose that make more sense. He is empathetic towards some of them, Juliet in particular because he knows that she is trapped just like him. I keep forgetting that Jack is the only one that knows this and Kate still has no idea.

( TPTB want us to call it New Otherton or some crap)

I hate that they are calling in New Otherton. Othersville is way better, so I'm gonna keep calling it that. ;)

Yeah, I suppose that make more sense. He is empathetic towards some of them, Juliet in particular because he knows that she is trapped just like him. I keep forgetting that Jack is the only one that knows this and Kate still has no idea.

Exactly. There is so much scheming going on, it is impossible to know who is telling lies, who is telling the truth, who is manipulating, who is conning, who doesn't know a pertinent piece of information, who is lying in order to help someone else.
I mean, if you still think Juliet is lying to Jack, then Jack is screwed, because he's aligning himself with her. And Kate doesn't know why he is trusting her.
So not only does it all have implications for the triangle (quadrangle) but it has implications for factions of who will fight who and who will survive and who will get off the island (if anyone). Twisted and awesome!

Exactly. There is so much scheming going on, it is impossible to know who is telling lies, who is telling the truth, who is manipulating, who is conning, who doesn't know a pertinent piece of information, who is lying in order to help someone else.
I mean, if you still think Juliet is lying to Jack, then Jack is screwed, because he's aligning himself with her. And Kate doesn't know why he is trusting her.
So not only does it all have implications for the triangle (quadrangle) but it has implications for factions of who will fight who and who will survive and who will get off the island (if anyone). Twisted and awesome!

Yeah, I totally don't trust Juliet. Yes she has a backstory that would make you think she's a good guy, but she killed Pickett in cold blood. I think the island has messed with her a bit... I don't think she's evil, but I don't think she's telling the truth completely either; she's very gray.

And I agree, briar, Othersville is far superior! ;)

Either Jack or Sawyer is going to get hurt tremendously by Kate. I just wish that for us who have to watch, the execution didn't have to drag on so long. Swing the axe, already, and let the head roll!

I'm with you Perdue, except that I think the axe was already swung. Kate has already hurt Jack tremendously and I think she "got it" tonight, got what is going on and got that it's not "what did they do to you Jack", but "what did I do to you Jack".

I can't even imagine all of them trying to co-exist on the same beach now and I get the sense that Jack couldn't imagine that either, which is what he was trying to tell her but he couldn't spit it out.

Kate's made quite a mess for herself and uh oh..............there's no running this time because there's no where to run.

I'm with you Perdue, except that I think the axe was already swung. Kate has already hurt Jack tremendously and I think she "got it" tonight, got what is going on and got that it's not "what did they do to you Jack", but "what did I do to you Jack".

I can't even imagine all of them trying to co-exist on the same beach now and I get the sense that Jack couldn't imagine that either, which is what he was trying to tell her but he couldn't spit it out.

Kate's made quite a mess for herself and uh oh..............there's no running this time because there's no where to run.
That's exactly right -- Jack has already been hurt. That happened in front of the video monitor in I Do. Now Kate is seeing that and it's starting to dawn on her that there are consequences for their relationship.

Yet there was still such tenderness between them. Jack was truly moved that she had come back for him.

Did you notice how Juliet barged in during a rather crucial moment, right after Kate asked "what did they tell you?" She was totally listening in on the microphones, I bet. Tom probably told her not to go in. Hee hee.

I thought Jack was going to kiss Kate, but then Juliet walked in.... It is a tangled web they've woven and as always, it'll be interesting to see how it all pans out.

I think if we're going to speculate about fictional relationships, then here is my take on the whole Jack/Kate/Sawyer dilemma.

Kate really wants to be with Jack but doesn't think she deserves him. My guess is that he's too much of a reminder of her only real love, her doctor boyfriend she got killed. Sawyer and guys like him are her punishment for being a "bad" woman.

Jack obviously really digs Kate and wants to be with her but because he saw her and Sawyer together, he thinks he hasn't got a shot and probably doesn't want to go there because it's obvious to him that Kate is just running.

Sawyer, in my opinion, originally wanted Kate because he and Jack have this Alpha Male thing going on but then before he knew it, he developed feelings for Kate.

Where TPTB will take this is hard to tell. If the Island is about healing wounds physically, you have to consider that it heals emotional ones too. It'll be interesting to see where it goes.

I think Kate did mean the sex with Sawyer when she asked Jack "what did they tell you?".

It's tough for her I think because I TRULY don't think she knows what she wants. She wanted to be with Sawyer, but she didn't really want Jack to know about it. And at the time it didn't matter because she was terrified of losing Sawyer and that's all she was thinking about. But now she's face to face with Jack...and she's also feeling afraid that he knows and that it hurt him.

I don't know what will happen between them all now. I think Kate and Jack are going to have a rift for awhile. Whatever his reasons were I think it bothers Kate that Jack would make a deal with 'the others'. There was this thing Jack had where he rushed into situations head on with guns blazing. He didn't always stop to think (where he sometimes should have) but he was the hero and he would just run in and try to save people. Now it's like he's cautious and calculating...and I think Kate feels like it's not the Jack that she grew to care for. She rushed back to save him with all HER guns blazing the way he always did for her...and she found him playing football and making deals with people who held them all captive. She understands on a logical level...but I don't think she gets it on an emotional one. If that makes any sense...lol...

Sleeping with Sawyer did change things because before that Kate was teetering back and forth emotionally, only allowing herself subtle actions. But everything's changed now.

I don't think it's that Kate regrets sleeping with Sawyer or that she doesn't care about him. When she's with him it's obvious that she really does! But there's something between her and Jack as well...and she hates the idea that it's changed.

I don't think there's any anger between any of them really...but things won't be the same as they were before.

That's exactly right -- Jack has already been hurt. That happened in front of the video monitor in I Do. Now Kate is seeing that and it's starting to dawn on her that there are consequences for their relationship.

Yet there was still such tenderness between them. Jack was truly moved that she had come back for him.

Did you notice how Juliet barged in during a rather crucial moment, right after Kate asked "what did they tell you?" She was totally listening in on the microphones, I bet. Tom probably told her not to go in. Hee hee.

Yes there is a lot of tenderness between them and it is very sweet, but what about Sawyer? He's sitting back at the beach pining over her and is Kate just going to go back and drop the axe in the middle of his head too? Can she? She cares about Sawyer and doesn't want to hurt him like she now knows she's hurt Jack. Like I said, she's put herself in a very uncomfortable and sad situation where no matter what happens, nobody is going to feel good about it, especially while they are all living on top of one another.

I don't think before this episode we got any real sense of just how hurt/affected Jack was by the Skex. It almost seemed like Kate represented "hope" for Jack and last night he seemed like he'd lost hope. It was sad watching him needing to be as far away from her as he could get (emotionally) and then watching his defenses slowly break down, watching him flinch at her touch and then the way he grabbed onto her hand and eventually caved, allowing her to see what was wrong and the emotional impact that it had on Kate when she realized that he knew and that "it" was what was wrong with him. Kate is definitely Jack's kryptonite and I guess time will tell if that is a good thing or a bad thing, but that was a very powerful scene that conveyed so much with very few words so kudos to the actors for pulling it off.

Somebody always interrupts Kate and Jack's crucial moments. It's got to be a running joke by now. You could run office pools on who will be the next Lostie to interrupt Jack and Kate. If I were Juliet I'd watch out for my knee caps, that death stare Kate shot at her that got all of Sayid's attention was priceless. LOL

I think Queen and Flyer nailed it right on, Jack is all types of tore up over seeing kate with Sawyer, that he would do anything to get worlds away from her. Wether or not he was coming back for her (them) is another story.

I know I wouldn't come back after being hurt like that. Let them have their island babies and island families. Jack doesn't want to relive another hurt like the devoirce, and now this. Poor POOR guy!

Kate is a bad person 100% and i see it now. She wants her cake and eat it too. TOO BAD, she had to choose and she did. She peed in her bed, now she needs to lie in it. It just kills me that she is 95% good but 5% EVIL. Enough to make her ugly!

I can't even imagine all of them trying to co-exist on the same beach now and I get the sense that Jack couldn't imagine that either, which is what he was trying to tell her but he couldn't spit it out.

Kate's made quite a mess for herself and uh oh..............there's no running this time because there's no where to run.

This is a good point. If Jack and/or Juliet go back to the beach with Kate. It's gonna be awkward. I think we are going to see a time where Kate is really off on her own, doing her own thing. Which I think would be great!
Sawyer will be hurt by her. Jack is hurt by her and will be paired off with Juliet. (You can see how they laid the groundwork for this last season with Jack and Ana Lucia, but the chemistry wasn't there so they ditched it. They brought Jate back together, only to tear them apart again because of this betrayal and Juliet's presence.)
I think that Kate will go off on her own trek or spend time in the jungle alone (like Sayid did or like Danielle does). It'll be good for her and maybe help her decide, or grow up a little.


I don't know what will happen between them all now. I think Kate and Jack are going to have a rift for awhile. Whatever his reasons were I think it bothers Kate that Jack would make a deal with 'the others'. There was this thing Jack had where he rushed into situations head on with guns blazing. He didn't always stop to think (where he sometimes should have) but he was the hero and he would just run in and try to save people. Now it's like he's cautious and calculating...and I think Kate feels like it's not the Jack that she grew to care for. She rushed back to save him with all HER guns blazing the way he always did for her...and she found him playing football and making deals with people who held them all captive. She understands on a logical level...but I don't think she gets it on an emotional one. If that makes any sense...lol...


I agree totally with QueenE. I definitely think that Jack and Kate both realize now that they neither of them are what the other thought the other was, if you know what I mean. Jack didn't know Kate could hurt him like this. Kate didn't know that Jack could be so calculated and un-hero-like. It's a difficult position for them.

The more I watch Jack and Kate, the more they unpleasantly remind me of the teenaged angst fest of Buffy and Angel on "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" and the angst fest of Clark and Lana on "Smallville". Dealing with such angst fests in teenaged characters are bad enough, but when they come into the form of two adults . . . dear God!

Either Jack or Sawyer is going to get hurt tremendously by Kate. I just wish that for us who have to watch, the execution didn't have to drag on so long. Swing the axe, already, and let the head roll!


Exactly!!! Right now it just seems like she is hurting them both in a very slow and agonizing way.

The more I watch Jack and Kate, the more they unpleasantly remind me of the teenaged angst fest of Buffy and Angel on "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" and the angst fest of Clark and Lana on "Smallville". Dealing with such angst fests in teenaged characters are bad enough, but when they come into the form of two adults . . . dear God!

Yes, there is a lot of "high school behavior" going on, isn't there?

It makes perfect emotional sense for Jack to bond with Juliet. She doesn't act like a conflicted "bad girl" teenager with authority issues. Anyway, why wouldn't he, after what he saw on the monitor? Jack's showing emotionally realistic behavior here. Many men would do the same in that circumstance. They wouldn't angst over it; wouldn't get all emo - they'd just move on. I hope this characterization keeps up.

Yes, there is a lot of "high school behavior" going on, isn't there?

It makes perfect emotional sense for Jack to bond with Juliet. She doesn't act like a conflicted "bad girl" teenager with authority issues. .

Actually, Juliet does act like a conflicted bad girl with authority issues. Well, she murdered someone. That's bad. And considering the "kill Ben" video, I'm pretty sure she's got authority issues. I don't think Jack really bonded with Juliet until she told Jack that she just wanted to go home. Suddenly, she went from a manipulative chick playing mind games to a damsel in distress who needed rescuing. But which one is she, really? Dum dum dum....

That's exactly right -- Jack has already been hurt. That happened in front of the video monitor in I Do. Now Kate is seeing that and it's starting to dawn on her that there are consequences for their relationship.

Yet there was still such tenderness between them. Jack was truly moved that she had come back for him.

Did you notice how Juliet barged in during a rather crucial moment, right after Kate asked "what did they tell you?" She was totally listening in on the microphones, I bet. Tom probably told her not to go in. Hee hee.

So true! :D

This is a good point. If Jack and/or Juliet go back to the beach with Kate. It's gonna be awkward.

If Kate didn't think she was good enough for Jack before, how do you suppose she feels now? If these were real people, I would expect Kate to resume her role as Sawyer's mistress, because she feels too guilty to pursue a relationship with Jack. She has plenty of physical courage, but not much emotional strength.

Jack is hurt by her and will be paired off with Juliet.

I wouldn't expect Jack to get involved with any woman for a while. He has been rejected in the cruelest possible way by the two women we have seen him care most about. Maybe the writers want to contrast the steadfastness of his love for Kate with her indecisiveness.

Sawyer will be hurt by her.

Or not. How long before we see him chasing another skirt?

I definitely think that Jack and Kate both realize now that they neither of them are what the other thought the other was, if you know what I mean. Jack didn't know Kate could hurt him like this. Kate didn't know that Jack could be so calculated and un-hero-like. It's a difficult position for them.

I must respectfully disagree. Jack always knew that Kate could hurt him, but trusted that she wouldn't. And I don't agree with the view that Jack is hero-like. He isn't driven to act like a hero - he is driven by what he knows to be right, which is what makes him a hero.

I think if the people stuck on this island would just learn to talk to each other (and that goes for all, not just Jack/Kate/Sawyer/Juliet...and whoever else wants to be added to the island love affair) a lot of their problems would have been sorted...but no. That would be too easy now, wouldn't it? :rolleyes:
I think the point is that they suffer through all these times so that when it finally comes to the end, and there is a choice to be finally made, that everything will feel so much better (for us, for them, for the nonshippers, cause then they can party that the triangle/square is dead) and by then they might have taken up the idea of sharing, and realise they can actually confide in each other and they are adults capable of that. lol.

Anyway, I loved the Jack and Kate scene, as much as it was ridden with a hell load of angst following on from the hell, in many forms, they witnessed in captivity, once broken down and left with the bare bones of what they feel in spite of their problems, it was a nice, tender, caring moment. But yeah, it wouldn't be a Jack and Kate scene without having someone else barge in during it...the writers must have a running poll whenever they write a scene for them, with something along the lines of, "Who should interrupt them next?"

Now we have Juliet's addition to the whole thing, I reckon it's going to get more complicated than before, and probably cause a lot more pain for the shippers, as this is going to be woven through the story till the writers finally decide to stop stringing people along. It was hard enough with only three people involved but this is going to get a whole lot worse now....hopefully it will lead somewhere....enjoyable....if that is possible. lol.

Either Jack or Sawyer is going to get hurt tremendously by Kate. I just wish that for us who have to watch, the execution didn't have to drag on so long. Swing the axe, already, and let the head roll!

I agree Perdue. Swing the axe and put both parties out of thier misery, cause I dont think its fun for either side to watch it all mangled like it is.

Show mercy, kill the triangle, and move on.

The part about the whole thing that bothered me is that she seemed so disturbed to know that Jack knows. Poor Sawyer. I hope he stands his ground with her when /if they are reunited, and doesn't apologize for anything!

well,i wouldn't say disturbed ..i'd say stunned.maybe even broken. And of course she is. Jack is not supposed to know about her little...mistake.

Kate was starting to realize that if he really knew..then she's basically lost him.. she broke his heart. That's why Jack's "but i'll come back here for you" is so important. it shows that no matter what..jack still loves her,he can't give up on her.He was trying to (he still IS trying to) 'cause he thinks that she's with sawyer.But in that scene u can feel and see the effect that kate has on him.he almost broke down too. And kate was obviously holding back too!.. at first because of jack's weird behavior towards her,and later,'cause she got that the reason why he was acting like that..was because he knew about what she did.And that must be one of the most horrible feelings a person can feel. they both feel rejected by the other one right now. It'll be really interesting to see all the 4 of them on the beach ....!
Anyway,it was a really amazing scene. there are so many unspoken things between them. And of course,some idiot ALWAYS needs to interrupt them...i wonder why.. :rolleyes:

I
And what did Kate mean when she asked him, "what did they tell you?" Was she really wondering if he knew about the sex?


totally. that question would not have any sense if she wasn't referring to the sex she got it...she understood that maybe he knows.. and it hit her pretty hard.

if it can help here's what the recap of ABC said:

.Kate is stunned.Jack says it was the best chance to bring back help for everyone.But why would he trust them?Jack replies it's because she told him to when she asked him to save Sawyer's life.Kate realizes he wasn't brainwashed or drugged - he was hurt by her



Either Jack or Sawyer is going to get hurt tremendously by Kate. I just wish that for us who have to watch, the execution didn't have to drag on so long. Swing the axe, already, and let the head roll!

I agree.The only thing is that Jack has already been hurt BADLY. Nothing good will come out from Kate's decision to sleep with sawyer that night. Jack's already suffered. And I predict now it's Sawyer's turn.

I'm with you Perdue, except that I think the axe was already swung. Kate has already hurt Jack tremendously and I think she "got it" tonight, got what is going on and got that it's not "what did they do to you Jack", but "what did I do to you Jack".

BINGO!

well,i wouldn't say disturbed ..i'd say stunned.maybe even broken. And of course she is. Jack is not supposed to know about her little...mistake.

Kate was starting to realize that if he really knew..then she's basically lost him.. she broke his heart. That's why Jack's "but i'll come back here for you" is so important. it shows that no matter what..jack still loves her,he can't give up on her.He was trying to (he still IS trying to) 'cause he thinks that she's with sawyer.But in that scene u can feel and see the effect that kate has on him.he almost broke down too. And kate was obviously holding back too!.. at first because of jack's weird behavior towards her,and later,'cause she got that the reason why he was acting like that..was because he knew about what she did.And that must be one of the most horrible feelings a person can feel. they both feel rejected by the other one right now. It'll be really interesting to see all the 4 of them on the beach ....!


I think we need to see more of Kate's reaction to this latest scene with Jack. What we did see has been left open to interpretation. I'd imagine Kate isn't feeling the best right now since she's being held captive and we know that's one of the things Kate hates most.

I think Jack may be hurt by Kate's choosing Sawyer - however, I don't see him as a man in love with her. If he was, he couldn't have contemplated heading off on that sub without her or at least he couldn't have even dreamt of leaving her behind as a prisoner with people he has no cause to trust. If this was reality, he'd get over any bad feelings he has right now because it appears to me as if he's hurt by the fact that he hasn't got undying devotion from this girl he has shown interest in. He isn't displaying typical characteristics of a man in love. How did Jack know he'd even be able to make it back to the island if he did get home? If he had to leave Kate behind, then you'd think he would have at the very least made sure his plans to return would be more foolproof.

I feel like they just wasted the entire mini-seson with an arc that has left us in exactly the same place as we were before. What was the point of devoting such a large part of the first 6 eps to the members of the triangle and some seeming resolution, only for them to demonstrate IMO that Kate is conflicted as ever in TMFT?

I don't personally think Jack and Kate have any chemistry and he seemed actually not that bothered about her, but it was obvious to me that it was intended to show the strength of Kate's romantic feelings towards Jack. And this after it seemed TPTB took great pains to show that there were genuine, deep feelings between her and Sawyer. Haven't we done this triangular to-ing and fro-ing to death? :cursing:

The worst part about it is that the character of Kate is really suffering through all this. She can be cool and kiss-***, but more and more she just seems fickle, wishy-washy and a bit of a tease. She's so inconsistently written that it seems that she has no other purpose than to take the triangle in whichever direction TPTB feel like exploiting any given week. I'm tired of it! :wallbash:

And no doubt she'll be feeling guilty that she forced Jack to make a deal for his own safety and leave her as a prisoner with the Others - what a prince! Whether or not he was planning on coming back for the other Losties (I'm sure he had that in mind), he left Kate handcuffed and at their mercy. Couldn't he have waited to make sure they were released before he left - he's gonna trust the leader of a group who have kidnapped, murdered and tortured people? :confused:

I feel like they just wasted the entire mini-seson with an arc that has left us in exactly the same place as we were before. What was the point of devoting such a large part of the first 6 eps to the members of the triangle and some seeming resolution, only for them to demonstrate IMO that Kate is conflicted as ever in TMFT?

I don't personally think Jack and Kate have any chemistry and he seemed actually not that bothered about her, but it was obvious to me that it was intended to show the strength of Kate's romantic feelings towards Jack. And this after it seemed TPTB took great pains to show that there were genuine, deep feelings between her and Sawyer. Haven't we done this triangular to-ing and fro-ing to death? :cursing:

The worst part about it is that the character of Kate is really suffering through all this. She can be cool and kiss-***, but more and more she just seems fickle, wishy-washy and a bit of a tease. She's so inconsistently written that it seems that she has no other purpose than to take the triangle in whichever direction TPTB feel like exploiting any given week. I'm tired of it! :wallbash:

And no doubt she'll be feeling guilty that she forced Jack to make a deal for his own safety and leave her as a prisoner with the Others - what a prince! Whether or not he was planning on coming back for the other Losties (I'm sure he had that in mind), he left Kate handcuffed and at their mercy. Couldn't he have waited to make sure they were released before he left - he's gonna trust the leader of a group who have kidnapped, murdered and tortured people? :confused:



I don't really think that this episode showed how strong Kate's romantic feelings for Jack are!:confused:
Sure he said that she made him believe he could trust the other's BUT was that not because he saw how deep Kate's feelings run for Sawyer because he was saying I believed them because you told me to & he meant the way Kate reacted to the thought they were going to kill Sawyer & she said "I HAVE to believe them" rather than risk Sawyer's life she was going to take them at their word so that really showed Jack how strong Kate's emotions are for Sawyer & of course Kate may be upset that Jack knows because she does have genuine love for Jack I have never doubted that BUT she loves Sawyer too, passionately IMO & that is what Jack witnessed in her plea to him through that glass & that is something Kate cannot take back & she knows that Jack sensed her strong feelings for Sawyer!;)

I don't think that Kate knows that Jack found out about the sex. She may suspect, but there was absolutely no confirmation. All Jack said to Kate was that he trusted the Others because Kate told him to when she asked him to save Sawyer's life. Kate was then wondering what else the Others might have told him, but at this point, Kate STILL doesn't know that Jack knows. I actually really like that plot point.

As for the idea that Jack is now different in Kate's eyes, I disagree. Kate did want to know why the change in Jack (if there was a change), as to why was Jack acting like he enjoyed Othersville? Well, Jack showed his true self to Kate three times in last night's episode. 1) When Kate entered his "house" and he tried to get her to leave. He told her that she had to get out, and that "They are watching me!" This is the first time that Kate understands that Jack is under surveillance and is forced to play along; then 2) when Jack and Kate are alone in the room discussing what was wrong with him, Jack leaned in to Kate (Tom told him they were listening), and told her that getting off the island was the only way to bring back help. Clearly, Jack has a plan that involves all the Losties; and 3) just before Jack left, he leaned down again and whispered"I will come back for you." These three instances clearly show Kate that the same old Jack is alive and well, and that Jack believes this is their best chance at rescue. The fact that Jack also asks Ben to release "his friends" is further evidence of this.

I agree that we really need a Jackback for Othersville. There's just too much unknown information. I like Jack when he's snarky and manipulative when it comes to Ben, rather than trusting Ben at his word, although I'm sure that's all about to change.

With regard to the thread, I agree that Jack, at this point, is going to protect his heart as best he can when it comes to Kate. Women have not treated this man well at all, and I don't see him risking his heart again, especially knowing what he knows. I think Jack does love Kate, but he believes that she is in love with Sawyer. Whether this is true or not, remains to be seen.

I for one don't mind the triangle, as opposed to some viewers. As long as it is done exactly the way it has been for the past few episodes: Interspersed with the rest of the Losties and as a B storyline. There's nothing wrong with having romance and angst in a drama. It seems that the writers have found a happy medium, judging by the responses from the fans for the past couple of episodes.

I think Jack may be hurt by Kate's choosing Sawyer - however, I don't see him as a man in love with her. If he was, he couldn't have contemplated heading off on that sub without her or at least he couldn't have even dreamt of leaving her behind as a prisoner with people he has no cause to trust. If this was reality, he'd get over any bad feelings he has right now because it appears to me as if he's hurt by the fact that he hasn't got undying devotion from this girl he has shown interest in. He isn't displaying typical characteristics of a man in love. "He isn't displaying typical characteristics of a man in love." - and what exactly are these characteristics? I'm just curious. What do you think a man should act if he thinks the woman he loves chose another man? IMO there are no such things as a "typical characteristics", people are not stereotypes. And it's not about "undying devotion" - wouldn't you be hurt to see a person you love in the arms of someone else? And we already got confirmation that Jack loves Kate so much that he put her life and her happiness before his own when he saved Kate and Sawyer in "I Do", so I don't really know why people still doubt Jack's feelings for her.
How did Jack know he'd even be able to make it back to the island if he did get home? If he had to leave Kate behind, then you'd think he would have at the very least made sure his plans to return would be more foolproof.
What do you think Jack should have done? He saved K&S, and he thought that the Others would kill him after Ben's operation, which was made clear in SIASL. So now that they didn't kill him, it seemed that Ben would keep his word and let him go. How should Jack know that he might not be able to come back? How could he know? People sometimes forget that the Losties don't know everything we do. In his mind this is for now the best chance to get off the island and get help for all of them. I don't know what's wrong about that. When the raft left they were on the same mission. Who knows if they could have made it back? They didn't have a better plan than Jack, they were just trying to get away and get help.

"He isn't displaying typical characteristics of a man in love." - and what exactly are these characteristics? I'm just curious. What do you think a man should act if he thinks the woman he loves chose another man? IMO there are no such things as a "typical characteristics", people are not stereotypes. And it's not about "undying devotion" - wouldn't you be hurt to see a person you love in the arms of someone else? And we already got confirmation that Jack loves Kate so much that he put her life and her happiness before his own when he saved Kate and Sawyer in "I Do", so I don't really know why people still doubt Jack's feelings for her.

What do you think Jack should have done? He saved K&S, and he thought that the Others would kill him after Ben's operation, which was made clear in SIASL. So now that they didn't kill him, it seemed that Ben would keep his word and let him go. How should Jack know that he might not be able to come back? How could he know? People sometimes forget that the Losties don't know everything we do. In his mind this is for now the best chance to get off the island and get help for all of them. I don't know what's wrong about that. When the raft left they were on the same mission. Who knows if they could have made it back? They didn't have a better plan than Jack, they were just trying to get away and get help.

I'm sure any man would be hurt if he was in love with a woman and realised she didn't love him but another man instead, but I don't think this is the case here. Regardless of the fact that Jack may love Kate, I think if a man truly loves a woman in this way, he still couldn't take off and possibly put her life on the line with a group he has been given no reason to trust. You say that Jack put Kate's "life and her happiness" before his own in 'I Do' saving both her life and Sawyer's. I'd be horrified if anyone in the same situation didn't do the same thing, especially considering that Jack brought Kate and Sawyer into danger in the first place. Attempting to save their lives there was the right thing to do. It isn't solely a sign of someone in love. I believe Jack does care for Kate but I don't believe he cares for her in the way a man does when in love.

I think a man typically in love could NEVER leave the woman he loves as a prisoner no matter what. He'd be beside himself with worry if he was forced to do so. I think he'd die trying to change that situation before ever planning on asking the person ultimately responsible for keeping her captive to let her go once he left and taking that person's word for it when told she would be. I'm trying to think of friends in the same situation - I can't imagine any husband or partner of a friend of mine doing this. There were lots of possible options for Jack. Why didn't he bargain to bring more people with him, specifically Kate? Why didn't he send a proxy if his only goal was to get help, specifically Sayid? That would be one way of ensuring he could keep an eye on Kate and trying to prevent any harm coming to her. Did Jack even know who was going to pilot the submarine? Ben's guys, I'm assuming. Does he have a gun to control the submarine sailors? He's trusting Ben too much here and Ben in return seems to have plotted to ensure Jack did not get away in that sub. Locke's arrival and intentions came in handy for him just at the right time.

I've never seen Jack revealing he believed the Others would kill him after operating on Ben. In fact, Tom had told him he would not be killed. They did however plan to kill Juliet. He made his second deal for - JULIET. Her life was important enough for him to compromise his principles and change his plans for. Kate's wasn't in this case. We haven't seen any sign of that.

The point is (and I hadn't forgotten it) Jack didn't know that he might not be able to come back. He never seemed to think about this and the repercussions in that happening, especially for the woman you say he loves that remains in captivity. I don't believe those on the raft ever thought they'd make it back for sure either - there were too many ways they'd never even have been able to make it for help - on an unpredictable ocean for one thing. The intention to get help for everyone is not a bad thing, Jack wasn't wrong in trying to do just that - he just didn't think well enough to take into account the fact his friends were possibly left in peril at the same time.

I think Jack may be hurt by Kate's choosing Sawyer - however, I don't see him as a man in love with her. If he was, he couldn't have contemplated heading off on that sub without her or at least he couldn't have even dreamt of leaving her behind as a prisoner with people he has no cause to trust.

But you have to remember that Jack saw Kate in Sawyer's arms after she had sex with him. In Jack's mind, he's thinking that Kate has chosen to live a life with Sawyer. Jack has changed from the guy that was so persistent in trying to be with the woman that he loved (Sarah) at all costs to a guy that just wants the woman that he loves to be happy (Kate), so he wasn't going to squash Kate's happiness just because he had his heart broken. It was pretty evident, at least to the many fans that I have spoken to, that Jack's facial expressions when he was talking to Kate are one of a guy that has had his heart broken, but is still in love with her.
100%
I feel like they just wasted the entire mini-seson with an arc that has left us in exactly the same place as we were before.

I honestly do believe the writers and producers are "back tracking", because when they found out that the mini-arc wasn't well received, they finally realized that something must be done and they must turn this whole thing around. Having said that, I think they are still not in tune with what the fans want, because they are going to continue the triangle even though many fans have voiced a strong dislike for it.

I don't personally think Jack and Kate have any chemistry and he seemed actually not that bothered about her, but it was obvious to me that it was intended to show the strength of Kate's romantic feelings towards Jack.

To each his own and everything on Lost lately has been left up to interpretation. Since you don't think Jack and Kate have any chemistry, I can't help you out on that one, but I do think the scene was to show the romantic feelings Jack has for Kate and vice versa.

And this after it seemed TPTB took great pains to show that there were genuine, deep feelings between her and Sawyer.

I didn't see those deep genuine feelings she has for Sawyer that you speak of. Having sex with someone doesn't equate to genuine love and it has already been confirmed that it was mainly pity sex as the reason Kate slept with Sawyer that night.

And no doubt she'll be feeling guilty that she forced Jack to make a deal for his own safety and leave her as a prisoner with the Others - what a prince! Whether or not he was planning on coming back for the other Losties (I'm sure he had that in mind), he left Kate handcuffed and at their mercy.

But Jack made sure that when him and Juliet were gone, that Ben would indeed let her go and if Ben would have said no, then he would have stayed. Ben however did say that he would release her and Jack knows that Ben keeps his word, so there should have been no other concern there.

Couldn't he have waited to make sure they were released before he left -

I suppose, but they were getting ready to leave and I don't think Ben would have released them right then and there anyway.

he's gonna trust the leader of a group who have kidnapped, murdered and tortured people? :confused:

Well, Kate trusted those very same people. She's the one that told Jack to trust them and so that's what he's doing.

I didn't see those deep genuine feelings she has for Sawyer that you speak of. Having sex with someone doesn't equate to genuine love and it has already been confirmed that it was mainly pity sex as the reason Kate slept with Sawyer that night.


And WHERE has that been confirmed exactly? If you're referring to Sawyer accusing her of that...there was nothing confirmed in that scene at all. In fact I think exactly the opposite. Sawyer told her she slept with him because she felt sorry for him...and Kate seemed really disgusted by the accusation. Of course she didn't deny it. Why should she dignify that kind of comment with an answer? It was incredibly rude...and designed to get her back up...because Sawyer just can't help pushing people he cares about away. He suggested she was the type of person who would use her body to make someone feel better. She was offended by that and she chose to take the high road and walk away. But there was no trace of guilt in her eyes when he accused her...no indication that he was right. There was only hurt and anger that he would say something like that.

And later...she basically asked him to apologize for it...knowing he would never do it on his own. She said "all you have to do is say you're sorry, you know". Of course he was too bull-headed to do that...but why would she want an apology for it if he hit the nail on the head? If she had really done that (and if you think kate is the type of person who WOULD do that I can't imagine why you enjoy her character) then she would have been too ashamed to bring it up again.

I'm not denying that the triangle is still there. I know that Kate has feelings for Jack as well. But it IS possible to care about two people at once. Just because Kate has feelings for Jack, it doesn't make sex with Sawyer (who she also has feelings for) simply pity. Would they have slept together right then if the threat of his death hadn't been upon them? Probably not. But that's not evidence of her pity. It's evidence that she was panicking that she was going to lose him. She cared about him, and she needed to be with him. Under ordinary circumstance it wouldn't have happened so quickly...but that doesn't mean it wasn't real. It just means that it happened under heightened tension and emotion....that they didn't get a chance to think it through logically. They were acting under pure passion and emotion. Kate is not the type of person who would think to herself "well he's going to die...so I might as well throw him a bone". She was scared...and she thought she'd never get a chance to show him she cared.

Attempting to save their lives there was the right thing to do. It isn't solely a sign of someone in love. I believe Jack does care for Kate but I don't believe he cares for her in the way a man does when in love. I didn't say that Jack saving K&S was solely a sign of him being in love, I just said that it was confirmed that this was the reason why he did it. I'll try to get the quote.

Did Jack even know who was going to pilot the submarine? Ben's guys, I'm assuming. Does he have a gun to control the submarine sailors? He's trusting Ben too much here and Ben in return seems to have plotted to ensure Jack did not get away in that sub. Locke's arrival and intentions came in handy for him just at the right time. we don't know if anyone besides Jack and Juliet would've been in the sub too. maybe Juliet knows how to control this thing. it might be that he trusts Ben a bit too much, but in Jack's eyes Ben kept his promises so far. Ben made a deal with Michael to get him off the island - and kept his promise. Ben made a deal with Jack to get him off the island - and kept his promise. Ben made another deal with Jack to save Juliets life - and kept his promise. And Ben made a deal with Juliet to let her go home - and kept his promise. maybe this was enough for Jack at this point.

I've never seen Jack revealing he believed the Others would kill him after operating on Ben. In fact, Tom had told him he would not be killed. They did however plan to kill Juliet. Jack says in SIASL: JACK: So this is it, huh?
TOM: It?
JACK: You just helped me save his life. If you're going to kill me, at least show me the respect of not calling it "moving."
TOM: Now, why would we kill you?
JACK: Because you're done with me. so Jack did think they were killing him.

He made his second deal for - JULIET. Her life was important enough for him to compromise his principles and change his plans for. Kate's wasn't in this case. We haven't seen any sign of that. he didn't change his plans for Juliet. he just made sure that Juliet wasn't being killed for helping his friends leaving the island. for helping him. he would've done that for every other person too.
The point is (and I hadn't forgotten it) Jack didn't know that he might not be able to come back. He never seemed to think about this but why should he suspect that he couldn't be able to get back there in the first place? he knows people come to this island and he was about to take off - why should he think that he can't come back?

I'm sure any man would be hurt if he was in love with a woman and realised she didn't love him but another man instead, but I don't think this is the case here. Regardless of the fact that Jack may love Kate, I think if a man truly loves a woman in this way, he still couldn't take off and possibly put her life on the line with a group he has been given no reason to trust.

Actually Jack and the audience have been given some reason to trust Ben. He seems to have some kind of twisted honour, especially when it comes to promises he's made. Yes, we all know he is a liar but we also know that when he's given "his word" he stays true to it even when he doesn't want to, at least, when there are witnesses. He let Michael and Walt go (it hasn't been shown yet whether they've actually made it home but it is possible). He let Kate and Sawyer go and even made sure Juliet helped them. He was intending to let Jack and Juliet go, as he promised, even though he didn't want to. This is why he was so grateful to Locke for showing up and making their escape impossible

You say that Jack put Kate's "life and her happiness" before his own in 'I Do' saving both her life and Sawyer's. I'd be horrified if anyone in the same situation didn't do the same thing, especially considering that Jack brought Kate and Sawyer into danger in the first place. Attempting to save their lives there was the right thing to do. It isn't solely a sign of someone in love. I believe Jack does care for Kate but I don't believe he cares for her in the way a man does when in love.

Just a correction here....Jack did not bring Kate and Sawyer into danger. Yes he followed along with Sayid's plan and kept the plan from K/S & Hurley at first - but everyone knew what they were getting into when Michael was confronted and they all decided to go ahead anyway.

I can’t make you see what you don’t see…but I’ve seen that it’s been made abundantly clear that Jack loves Kate. It was written all over his face in the Hydra scene in “I Do” (yeah, yeah – before all the yelling). Jack risked his life to save the woman he loves and the man he believes she loves. He “let her go” which was one of the issues he struggled with in TOTC. It continues to be his struggle to let her go – especially when she keeps coming back for him and doesn’t want him to let go.

I think a man typically in love could NEVER leave the woman he loves as a prisoner no matter what. He'd be beside himself with worry if he was forced to do so. I think he'd die trying to change that situation before ever planning on asking the person ultimately responsible for keeping her captive to let her go once he left and taking that person's word for it when told she would be. I'm trying to think of friends in the same situation - I can't imagine any husband or partner of a friend of mine doing this.

Jack went to Ben and exacted a promise from him to let all his friends go after he left the island. He even made it clear that he would not leave if Ben did NOT agree to release them after he left. This was Ben’s out if he chose to take it. I really think, if by some miracle, Jack did manage to get off the island in the sub, Ben would have kept his word again. We can argue about Jack’s judgment whether he really should trust Ben but I don’t think we can really argue his intentions here.

This last one was an easy promise for Ben to make. He already knew John was on the way to blow the thing up. But there was one little bit left to chance. Ben is a gambler. He told Locke that even if Jack left, he wouldn't be able to return because the comm system (and presumably the beacon) were now inoperable. There was no need to blow up the sub because leaving would be a "one-way ticket" anyway. Ben wanted Locke to make the decision himself that no one would be able to leave the island - ever again, if possible. He wanted Locke to be the one to ruin Jack's plan and he wanted Locke to make a conscious choice to do so. Very Shakespearean “tragic flaw” type stuff.

Jack has spent some time with the Others by now. He's getting a sense of what makes them tick. He also knows that the other survivors that were taken were not harmed. I think he believes that Kate is not in danger even though she is currently a prisoner. In fact, if we’re honest, Kate was never really in physical danger even during her previous captivity. Only Sawyer’s head was ever on the chopping block. That is not to say that she didn’t suffer – she clearly did.

There were lots of possible options for Jack. Why didn't he bargain to bring more people with him, specifically Kate? Why didn't he send a proxy if his only goal was to get help, specifically Sayid? That would be one way of ensuring he could keep an eye on Kate and trying to prevent any harm coming to her. Did Jack even know who was going to pilot the submarine? Ben's guys, I'm assuming. Does he have a gun to control the submarine sailors? He's trusting Ben too much here and Ben in return seems to have plotted to ensure Jack did not get away in that sub. Locke's arrival and intentions came in handy for him just at the right time.

These are all good ideas and I’m guessing they either weren’t used because they weren’t dramatic enough or that the writers didn’t think of them. In addition, none of them take into account that, IMO, Jack does not want to feel close to Kate right now. He loves her and has been hurt by her.

Again, I really feel that, yes, even though Ben was plotting to keep Jack and Juliet from leaving – he had run out of options and was planning to follow through on his promise…until Locke showed up. (lucky Ben!)

It would have been interesting to see Kate’s answer if she’d been offered a chance to go to? Would she want to go back “home” to her fugitive life and leave Sawyer behind?

I've never seen Jack revealing he believed the Others would kill him after operating on Ben. In fact, Tom had told him he would not be killed. They did however plan to kill Juliet. He made his second deal for - JULIET. Her life was important enough for him to compromise his principles and change his plans for. Kate's wasn't in this case. We haven't seen any sign of that.

Jack did reveal he believed the Others were going to kill him when Tom came to move him. That is why Tom told him they weren't planning to kill him. He did believe they were planning to kill Juliet because she was on trial for killing one of “their own”. I don’t believe Jack thinks they are planning to kill Kate or Sayid. He plans to ask Ben to let them go and if he doesn’t agree – Jack will remain behind and forego their best chance of rescue for everyone.

The point is (and I hadn't forgotten it) Jack didn't know that he might not be able to come back. He never seemed to think about this and the repercussions in that happening, especially for the woman you say he loves that remains in captivity. I don't believe those on the raft ever thought they'd make it back for sure either - there were too many ways they'd never even have been able to make it for help - on an unpredictable ocean for one thing. The intention to get help for everyone is not a bad thing, Jack wasn't wrong in trying to do just that - he just didn't think well enough to take into account the fact his friends were possibly left in peril at the same time.

I guess when you really have no options you have to try and trust your judgment of yourself and the people around you and hope things turn out for the best. I think that’s what the rafters did when they tried to sail away and get help and I think that is what Jack was planning as well.

And WHERE has that been confirmed exactly? If you're referring to Sawyer accusing her of that...there was nothing confirmed in that scene at all. In fact I think exactly the opposite. Sawyer told her she slept with him because she felt sorry for him...and Kate seemed really disgusted by the accusation. Of course she didn't deny it. Why should she dignify that kind of comment with an answer? It was incredibly rude...and designed to get her back up...because Sawyer just can't help pushing people he cares about away. He suggested she was the type of person who would use her body to make someone feel better. She was offended by that and she chose to take the high road and walk away. But there was no trace of guilt in her eyes when he accused her...no indication that he was right. There was only hurt and anger that he would say something like that.

Guys, we've been getting along so well. Let's not use some of the ugly terms like "pity sex" that get everyone riled up again.

Queen - it was confirmed in the ABC episode synopsis that Sawyer accused Kate of sleeping with him because she thought he was a dead man. The synopsis said she was shocked he was right but that she denied it. I think we can say, categorically, that Kate clearly has some feelings for Sawyer. The fact that he was a "dead man", certainly prompted her to act on them.

And WHERE has that been confirmed exactly? in the recap of the epi on abc, which was written by Gregg Nations (based on the scripts), and he confirmed it again here on the boards. it says when Sawyer accused her of this she had this reaction because she knew he was right.

I completely agree that she slept with him because she thought he was going to die. I just don't think she did it because she felt 'sorry' for him. I think there's a difference. And I think that Sawyer and Kate see it in different ways. She realizes she never would have done it if he wasn't going to die...but I don't think she feels like that means it can't have been real to her. And Sawyer feels like she did it because he was going to die...so there can't be anything there anymore. It seems to me like that's where their current rift is coming from.

And I could be wrong about that...I certainly don't write the episodes ;). I just think that there's a big difference between acting on emotions you already have under duress...and pretending to have them to make someone feel better. Kate never would have slept with Sawyer if she thought he wasn't going to die...that's completely true. But that's because a) she has feelings for both Jack and Sawyer and isn't sure which way to turn and b) sex was completely premature at that point in their relationship ;)

But simply because she pitied him...I don't think that's been confirmed in any way. And again...correct me if I'm wrong.

But simply because she pitied him...I don't think that's been confirmed in any way. And again...correct me if I'm wrong.

You're not wrong.;)

But you have to remember that Jack saw Kate in Sawyer's arms after she had sex with him. In Jack's mind, he's thinking that Kate has chosen to live a life with Sawyer. Jack has changed from the guy that was so persistent in trying to be with the woman that he loved (Sarah) at all costs to a guy that just wants the woman that he loves to be happy (Kate), so he wasn't going to squash Kate's happiness just because he had his heart broken. It was pretty evident, at least to the many fans that I have spoken to, that Jack's facial expressions when he was talking to Kate are one of a guy that has had his heart broken, but is still in love with her.


It is obviously interpreted differently, that is part of TPTB's plan presumably. Just because I interpret scenes differently to some people doesn't mean I'm right or wrong or that you're wrong or right. We can only speak for ourselves, not what other fans think.


But Jack made sure that when him and Juliet were gone, that Ben would indeed let her go and if Ben would have said no, then he would have stayed. Ben however did say that he would release her and Jack knows that Ben keeps his word, so there should have been no other concern there.

How does Jack know that Ben keeps his word? Ben himself was letting Locke go right ahead and destroy Jack's chance of leaving the island as he had been promised.


Well, Kate trusted those very same people. She's the one that told Jack to trust them and so that's what he's doing.

Kate did not say that - she told Jack she had to believe them because Sawyer's life was possibly in danger. That's different to actually trusting them. In fact, it's obvious she didn't trust them since she was so upset at the thoughts of what they could be capable of doing to Sawyer. Jack is the one that has decided to let Kate know that he is now making a decision about the Others based on his interpretation of what she said. Blaming Kate is the easy way out here in my opinion. Maybe he just can't think any further than getting the hell outta there and needed to believe he could trust the Others to make that happen.

ETA: Dany, your faith in Ben goes further than mine. I can't automatically trust the guy. I think he lets happen those things he wants to let happen - including Michael and Walt getting away in return for Jack, Sawyer & Kate (there are conditions attached to them escaping) and including Locke blowing up the sub and taking away Jack and Juliet's chance of escaping.

Kate's sleeping with Sawyer because she thought he was a dead man does not equate to having 'pity sex' with him. That term was not adopted by Gregg or any of the PTB. It isn't the same thing as wanting to show someone how you feel because you believe it may be the last chance you get.

You hit the nail on the head Queen Elessa! Of course part of the reason Kate chose to have sex with sawyer under those circumstances at that specific time was because she was frightened that she may never have the chance. Kate doesn;t ever admit anything about her emotions unless one of the men is in danger :rolleyes:

BUT what some people really love to ignore is that fact that Kate slept with sawyer because she has deep romantic and sexual feelings for him. Are you saying that if Sayid or charlie were in the cage and about to die Kate woould have thought, Well, I might as well giev them a nice send off, and then jump their bones.

I Do, showed that kate desires sawyer sexually and cares about him in a romantic way to have sex with him. Was she freaked out when she had to deal with the repercussions of her actions, hell yeah, they both were. They did something in the heat of the moment they have both wanted to do for a long time, but they are also both scared of showing emotion and are used to being alone and looking after number one. Sawyer, after seeing kate upset about leaving jack behind decided to use this as en excuse to push her away, to acuse of her of only sleeping with him because he was a dead man, implying she thought she could have sex witgh him, then he'd get shot so she could then also be with jack when he was gone. TBH if someone I cared about and had just slept with accused me of that he would of got a kate style punch in the face, but Kate just did the best hurt look ive ever seen on her and stalked off, later giving him a chance to appoligize for his words, which sawyer being sawyer mucked up yet again.

So call it pity sex if you want, but think about the fact that if that is truly what it was, kate giving sawyer a nice, charitable send off, what does that say about the woman you want with you hero Jack?

As for the implications of this episode. Jack was well and truly knocked off his pedastool in Kate's eyes. She risks her life going back for him, just like she knows he would do for her, she "owes" him. She;s terrified imagining all kinds of things they couldc be doing to him, torture and genral maiming come to mind, he could even be dead. Then what does she find, he's playing football, playing the piano, socialising with these people. Nope, he's got to be brainwashed, the Jack she knows would never act like this, would never sleep with the enemy. She gets close to him, taking his hand, asking him gently what they did to him. And then he tells her, he;s not brainwashed, hasn;t been tortured or threatened he's made a deal to get himself (and the hot blonde) off the island. Kate is crushed by this. And who does he blame for this, how does he twist the knife even more, "I only did it because you asked me to trust them" nice Jack, you're abandoning the woman you "love" in the hands of know murderers (he knows these are the people who hung charlie and kidnapped claire).

I cannot see how this can possibly look good for a jack and kate relationship, I don't care if he thinks she's with sawyer now, he shouldn't have been prepared to leave her there at all. But he was. he had no guarentees that kate would be let go, apart from Ben's word, and I donlt care if he kept it about the submarine, there will always be that element of doubt, and if he truly does trust ben implicitly, then he's a bigger fool than I thought.

I hope Kate does think Jack knows she slept with sawyer, she needs to realise she has to stop stringing both men along like this, and as Jack decided to throw saving her back in her face because he's so hurt she slept with sawyer, this at least will give her the inclination to realise she's hurting both men with her indecision and constant back and forth.

But nothing can change the fact that Kate's perception of Jack was dramatically changed after this episode.

BUT what some people really love to ignore is that fact that Kate slept with sawyer because she has deep romantic and sexual feelings for him.

By the same token, some people really love to ignore the fact that she also clearly has deep romantic and sexual feelings for Jack.


So call it pity sex if you want, but think about the fact that if that is truly what it was, kate giving sawyer a nice, charitable send off, what does that say about the woman you want with you hero Jack?

I'm not sure how, even if it was "pity sex" and I don't think it was, how that would make Kate a bad person?

As for the implications of this episode. Jack was well and truly knocked off his pedastool in Kate's eyes. She risks her life going back for him, just like she knows he would do for her, she "owes" him. She;s terrified imagining all kinds of things they couldc be doing to him, torture and genral maiming come to mind, he could even be dead. Then what does she find, he's playing football, playing the piano, socialising with these people. Nope, he's got to be brainwashed, the Jack she knows would never act like this, would never sleep with the enemy. She gets close to him, taking his hand, asking him gently what they did to him. And then he tells her, he;s not brainwashed, hasn;t been tortured or threatened he's made a deal to get himself (and the hot blonde) off the island. Kate is crushed by this. And who does he blame for this, how does he twist the knife even more, "I only did it because you asked me to trust them" nice Jack, you're abandoning the woman you "love" in the hands of know murderers (he knows these are the people who hung charlie and kidnapped claire).

Well, hopefully, then, this will put an end to the "Kate only hero-worships Jack, she doesn't really love him" stuff. Jack is not sleeping with the enemy. He made it clear he's not "with" anyone. If your enemy has the only means of escape from the prison they are all in, what do you do? Go to war? Maybe. Broker a peace of some sort? Probably a better idea and one less likely to get your own people killed.

I cannot see how this can possibly look good for a jack and kate relationship, I don't care if he thinks she's with sawyer now, he shouldn't have been prepared to leave her there at all. But he was. he had no guarentees that kate would be let go, apart from Ben's word, and I donlt care if he kept it about the submarine, there will always be that element of doubt, and if he truly does trust ben implicitly, then he's a bigger fool than I thought.

True - Ben's a slippery character and there would always be doubt, but, again it's mitigated by who Ben has already shown himself to be. When he makes a promise, he keeps it.

I think this looks good for Jate because it's, once again, clear to anyone with an open mind that they love each other. And, it's clear to anyone who doesn't despise Jack that he's trying to do the right thing here - to help save not only Kate but everyone else and to let her go and be happy with the man he believes she chose.

I hope Kate does think Jack knows she slept with sawyer, she needs to realise she has to stop stringing both men along like this, and as Jack decided to throw saving her back in her face because he's so hurt she slept with sawyer, this at least will give her the inclination to realise she's hurting both men with her indecision and constant back and forth.

He didn't "throw it back in her face". She asked him what had they done to him - why was he acting so different. He was honest with her. If she chose to feel shame about it, how is that Jack's fault?

But nothing can change the fact that Kate's perception of Jack was dramatically changed after this episode.

We all know Kate is an non-judgmental, forgiving sort. If that weren't the case, she would have cut Sawyer loose after "The Long Con"; she would have had nothing to do with Jack after he snubbed her during "The Hunting Party". She had no problem with the fact that he was going "home". She was trying to be happy for him. And she knows he's coming back for her. She believes it.

Does anyone else find it so strange how drastically different two people can see the same scene? I guess it must be chalked up to personal bias, if you prefer Kate-Sawyer you'll see one thing and if you prefer Kate-Jack you'll see the opposite. It really does amaze me how into the debate people get, especially since, in the end, the correct interpretation is known only to TPTB.

But nothing can change the fact that Kate's perception of Jack was dramatically changed after this episode.


"And the beat goes on....."

I can't imagine why Kate's perception of Jack has changed. He did tell her "it's our best chance, I can bring back help" and he did tell her "I will come back here for you".

I know that Jack is never supposed to show a human side or god forbid a weakness, but he is human and Kate is definitely his weakness and has been since Season 1. That he cares entirely too much about this woman is only a revelation to those that haven't been paying attention.

I was glad he found such a tactful way to bring up the Skex because she's sitting there bascially accusing him of being a traitor and questioning his motives and won't give it up so unlike Kate he's just honest with her and lets her know that she is the reason he's acting so strange.

She's acting all hurt and wounded that he would actually consider leaving her behind and he's just supposed to sit there and take it? Seriously, how much indecisive "teasing" is a man supposed to take from a woman before he finally calls a spade a spade?

He saved her and told her not to come and as usual she didn't listen to him. What was he supposed to do? Give up what he believed was their last shot at actually getting rescued to be held prisoner in Stepford with her?

Jack's just doing the best he can to survive and help his friends survive. It isn't the end result of his decisions that make Jack heroic, it is the motivation behind the decisions that him heroic. Being motivated by hurt in no way makes him heroic, it makes him human, that his intentions and thoughts remained with the safety of his friends so much that he was willing to stay if Ben was going to hurt them shows that even though he's currently acting on a selfish emotion, he never truly becomes self-involved. Cut the guy some slack. Geez.

Does anyone else find it so strange how drastically different two people can see the same scene? I guess it must be chalked up to personal bias, if you prefer Kate-Sawyer you'll see one thing and if you prefer Kate-Jack you'll see the opposite. It really does amaze me how into the debate people get, especially since, in the end, the correct interpretation is known only to TPTB.

Come on though - it's a good debate though, right?:biggrin:

TPTB intentionally leave this stuff open and will continue to until they make up their minds, themselves, who Kate will choose.

I'm not sure how, even if it was "pity sex" and I don't think it was, how that would make Kate a bad person?


I don't know...I would be REALLY offended if someone accused me of sleeping with them out of pity. Because it would suggest that not only did I not love them, but I also wasn't really compelled by a sexual attraction. I have no problem with women sleeping around if they chose to. If they're control and it's about what they want. But I do have a problem with someone who would use her body like a comfort blanket. Like, I don't know how to make you feel better so I'll let you have sex with me? ICK. So I think it's offensive for a woman to be accused of that.

And also it would be deceptive of her because she acted like she cared...like it was more than that. And if she just thought "oh well I might as well help the poor guy out", it's not only degrading to her, but to Sawyer as well. It would mean that she was playing a role and messing with people's emotions...and even if she had the best of intentions it's a pretty awful thing to do. How many of us would appreciate someone sleeping with us just because they felt sorry for us?

I can't imagine why Kate's perception of Jack has changed. He did tell her "it's our best chance, I can bring back help" and he did tell her "I will come back here for you".

I do think her perception of Jack has changed. I don't think it's that he's done anything wrong...I certainly understand where he was coming from...and I think on some level Kate does too.

But feelings are not rational. And Kate has always had this admiration of Jack that was really strong. And it had to do with the way he handled situations. I mentioned it earlier in this thread, but Jack has always been the really obvious 'hero' type. Unlike Sayid who's very quiet and calculating, Jack was in-your-face all the way there 'let's rescue people'. Truthfully I think it wasn't always the best option because he often made situations worse because he was so gungho. But it was the way he was. He wouldn't give up...even in the face of reason. That's the Jack who came into 'the others' camp. The Jack who was tugging against the pipe with his chains...holding Juliet hostage with a plate...refusing to talk to them...refusing to play their games. He stood fast on matter what.

And now he's gone and done the complete opposite. His intentions are noble...but it's like he's been broken or something. He gave in...he made a deal...he compromised. That's not what Jack usually does. And part of that compromise means playing nice with people who held them captive and did pretty unspeakable things to some of them (Sawyer for example). Kate herself would be more likely to take the compromise in some situations...she's stealthy like that...but she didn't imagine it possible of Jack...she looked up to him.

So...I think think in spite of logic telling her Jack is trying to do what's best...there's this sense of dissapointment and despair in seeing him that way.

I know that Jack is never supposed to show a human side or god forbid a weakness, but he is human and Kate is definitely his weakness and has been since Season 1. That he cares entirely too much about this woman is only a revelation to those that haven't been paying attention.


I for one have been paying plenty of attention. If he cared about her so much, why no thank you for coming to save him? Why not so much as a gentle squeeze of her shoulder as he left her - in all likelihood forever, given the infinitesimal odds that he will ever be able to return? Why not even a backward glance?

If that is love, it is a love entirely devoid of passion. In fact, it is a love entirely devoid of COMpassion. Leaving a woman in handcuffs in the hands of killers is not love. It isn't even basic human decency.

I don't know...I would be REALLY offended if someone accused me of sleeping with them out of pity. Because it would suggest that not only did I not love them, but I also wasn't really compelled by a sexual attraction. I have no problem with women sleeping around if they chose to. If they're control and it's about what they want. But I do have a problem with someone who would use her body like a comfort blanket. Like, I don't know how to make you feel better so I'll let you have sex with me? ICK. So I think it's offensive for a woman to be accused of that.

I think you would only be offended if it weren't true. If it was true and it was something you chose to do out of the kindness of your heart, it wouldn't be offensive although the phrase "pity sex" is, IMO, very offensive.

Again, I don't think it was pity. But, I would not have a problem with it, if it was, even though I wouldn't call it "pity". Sex doesn't always mean love. Sometimes it's just exercise - sometimes it's a way to forget about someone else - sometimes it's just because you want to feel better and not so alone and sometimes it's something you do with someone you care about because you want to soothe them - not pity, really - but not "love" either.


But feelings are not rational. And Kate has always had this admiration of Jack that was really strong. And it had to do with the way he handled situations. I mentioned it earlier in this thread, but Jack has always been the really obvious 'hero' type. Unlike Sayid who's very quiet and calculating, Jack was in-your-face all the way there 'let's rescue people'. Truthfully I think it wasn't always the best option because he often made situations worse because he was so gungho. But it was the way he was. He wouldn't give up...even in the face of reason. That's the Jack who came into 'the others' camp. The Jack who was tugging against the pipe with his chains...holding Juliet hostage with a plate...refusing to talk to them...refusing to play their games. He stood fast on matter what.

And now he's gone and done the complete opposite. His intentions are noble...but it's like he's been broken or something. He gave in...he made a deal...he compromised. That's not what Jack usually does. And part of that compromise means playing nice with people who held them captive and did pretty unspeakable things to some of them (Sawyer for example). Kate herself would be more likely to take the compromise in some situations...she's stealthy like that...but she didn't imagine it possible of Jack...she looked up to him.

So...I think think in spite of logic telling her Jack is trying to do what's best...there's this sense of dissapointment and despair in seeing him that way.

I think, to some degree, Jack is emotionally battered. I don't see him as broken, though. And I think Kate does despair to see him so hurt. I don't think, however, that she's disappointed in him. I've never seen the "hero-worship" that some people say that Kate feels for Jack. I think she's always admired him and thinks he's a good person. But I think, from very early on, Kate's known about Jack's flaws. She's seen him push too hard. She's seen him resort to going along with torture. She's seen that sometimes he doesn't know who to trust either. I don't think Kate believes Jack is planning to leave for selfish reasons although it's certainly in his best interests to do so. It's also in everyone else's best interests.

I don't know...I would be REALLY offended if someone accused me of sleeping with them out of pity. Because it would suggest that not only did I not love them, but I also wasn't really compelled by a sexual attraction. I have no problem with women sleeping around if they chose to. If they're control and it's about what they want. But I do have a problem with someone who would use her body like a comfort blanket. Like, I don't know how to make you feel better so I'll let you have sex with me? ICK. So I think it's offensive for a woman to be accused of that.

And also it would be deceptive of her because she acted like she cared...like it was more than that. And if she just thought "oh well I might as well help the poor guy out", it's not only degrading to her, but to Sawyer as well. It would mean that she was playing a role and messing with people's emotions...and even if she had the best of intentions it's a pretty awful thing to do. How many of us would appreciate someone sleeping with us just because they felt sorry for us?



I really don't know anyone that perceived the "skex" that way, including Sawyer. I think people are too quick to label it "pity sex" as just a way of stating that it was the circumstances that led to the sex. Sawyer's accusation in my opinion was dead on in that while she cares about him and is attracted to him the only reason she slept with him was because she, like him, had come to believe the situation was hopeless so they turned to one another as a way of salvaging some kind of hope. In other words, they never would've slept togehter "yet" had their situation not been what it was and Kate didn't like that he was right, didn't like being cornered and forced to face the music and come clean and talk about what she's really feeling. JMO


And now he's gone and done the complete opposite. His intentions are noble...but it's like he's been broken or something.


He has been broken and she now knows that she is the one that broke him so while she may be disappointed that her knight in shining armour has a weakness she has to deal with knowing that she is the one that put the kink in his armour.

Her perception of Jack may have been changed when she initially thought he'd turned, I think now that she knows why he's behaving the way he is, it will be the perception of herself and her actions (not the sex, but just the way she goes back and forth between the two men) that will change, which will hopefully lead to her coming to grips with her feelings for both of these men and stop stringing them along because I don't believe she set out initially to hurt anyone.

But I also just loved the scenes with Kate and Jack. Their scenes together this season have been so few, but they've all been so powerful and emotional. I'm interested to see how Juliet's going to throw a wrench into them.

if you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge a ball!:biggrin:

I really don't know anyone that perceived the "skex" that way, including Sawyer. I think people are too quick to label it "pity sex" as just a way of stating that it was the circumstances that led to the sex. Sawyer's accusation in my opinion was dead on in that while she cares about him and is attracted to him the only reason she slept with him was because she, like him, had come to believe the situation was hopeless so they turned to one another as a way of salvaging some kind of hope. In other words, they never would've slept togehter "yet" had their situation not been what it was and Kate didn't like that he was right, didn't like being cornered and forced to face the music and come clean and talk about what she's really feeling. JMO


Yeah, I agree with that 100%. I think that's exactly what happened...and it's natural. I was just saying that IF Kate had slept with Sawyer just of out some sense of "well you're going to die, and I feel badly for you", it wouldn't have said a lot about her as a person. I think it was more about HER sense of panic about losing him...which is not so bad because at least she cares.

But I think Sawyer WAS insinuating to Kate that she didn't care about him. I don't necessarily think he even believes that. But you have to admit that when he uses a certain tone of voice and has his attitude...sometimes you just want to clock him ;). I think he was being rude on purpose to push her away further...because he's unable to death with the aftermath and the only way he knows how is to be a jerk to keep her at a distance. I mean if he'd approached it in a different way. If they'd actually said "we need to take a step back. clearly there are feelings there but we moved really quickly because of the impending doom, and now that that doom is gone, there's going to have to be some re-evaluating." But instead he got all snarky with her like he was trying to offend her. At least in my opinion that's how it sounded.

"And the beat goes on....."

I can't imagine why Kate's perception of Jack has changed. He did tell her "it's our best chance, I can bring back help" and he did tell her "I will come back here for you".

I know that Jack is never supposed to show a human side or god forbid a weakness, but he is human and Kate is definitely his weakness and has been since Season 1. That he cares entirely too much about this woman is only a revelation to those that haven't been paying attention.



I don't appreciate the insinuation that I don;t pay attention to the show, just because I don;t agree with your opinion or the way you view things.

In my interpretation of Kate's feelings for both men, I conclude that alot of what Kate feels for Jack is mixed up in her hero worship of him, since season one she has constantly sought his approval, as if this will somehow make her "good" which part of her longs to be.

In this episode Jack in being shown to go against his previous mode of behaviour, however it is spun he has made a deal to get himself out of there, based on the mystery surrounding the island, he's got to know there's a good chance that he might never find the island again. Although my opinion of Jack is not that high, the writers have not portrayed him to be a total idiot, and for him to genuinely believe there's a good chance of him bieng able to return and save them all, based on everything they know would certainly make him one.

He's always been "live together, die alone" but he is going against this, yes, he has good intentions, but this goes against this mentality he has previously been shown to have, and it is Jack's belief in this mentality, that you stick together no matter want, we all leave or no one leaves etc mentality that Kate respects and admires so much about him. And in this episode, his belief in this is shaken and he is leaving.

IMO, I'm glad Jack is looking after number one to a certain extent, it makes his character more believable, less perfect. And while some people may think that showing Jack is flawed is a good thing for a potential jack and kate relationship, it's this goodness and heroicness that I believe is what attracted kate to jack in the first place.

I don't disagree with Jack's plan, but he is essentially abandoning the Losties for god knows how long, without a doctor without their "leader," maybe if this was an informed decision involving the losties and not some bargin then jack would have stayed behind and let someone who was more dispensable to the group go, or someone more deserving of civilisation (like claire and aaron) but this is just pure speculation obviously.

The way I view it is that if you are in love with someone you don't abandon them in the hands of people you know are killer, you get them released before you go off on your mission. Like Jack said to benry, he knows he owes him nothing anymore, so why should be believe he will keep his word?

I am genuinely not bashing Jack's character, like I have said, I don't necessarily think what he has done is wrong, but I don't believe what he did in this episode shows that he is in love with Kate. Whether he believes she has chosen another man over him or not, if he cared about her at all, I really don;t understand how he could bare to leave her, handcuffed and trapped in the hands of people like that. Love doesn;t just go away in the matter of a week, not matter how much she may have hurt him, nothing can convince me that he did the right thing leaving her behind like that.

And WHERE has that been confirmed exactly?

Gregg Nations, who writes the ABC recaps basically said that "pity sex" was written in the script and that when Sawyer called her on only having sex with him because she thought he was a dead man, she was taken aback that he was right.

And later...she basically asked him to apologize for it...

That's your interpretation of that scene. Gregg recently said that what Sawyer should apologize to Kate for is his treatment of her after the sex, not necessarily Sawyer calling her out on the pity sex, but just his behavior in general. All of that is of course Gregg's own interpretation. I agree to some extent, but I think what Kate wanted Sawyer to apologize for was the way he didn't seem to care about Jack's current circumstances.

Of course he was too bull-headed to do that...but why would she want an apology for it if he hit the nail on the head?

Because that wasn't what she wanted Sawyer to apologize for. After she said asked him for an apology, she then followed that up with, we can start over and wipe the slate clean. Now if the sex was that important for her, why would she want to essentially forget about it, hence wiping the slate clean?

If she had really done that (and if you think kate is the type of person who WOULD do that I can't imagine why you enjoy her character) then she would have been too ashamed to bring it up again.

Well I'm not a big fan of Kate lol. And yes I do think Kate is very manipulative and can con people like the best of them, so it's not beyond her to sleep with someone that she doesn't love out of "pity."

I know that Kate has feelings for Jack as well. But it IS possible to care about two people at once. Just because Kate has feelings for Jack, it doesn't make sex with Sawyer (who she also has feelings for) simply pity.

No, her feelings for Jack doesn't make sex with Sawyer simply pity, but I still believe that Kate isn't in love with Sawyer. Imo, when you take the circumstances both her and Sawyer were in and you combine that with the fact that she isn't in love with him, the sex does seem like pity.

Would they have slept together right then if the threat of his death hadn't been upon them? Probably not. But that's not evidence of her pity. It's evidence that she was panicking that she was going to lose him. She cared about him, and she needed to be with him.

If Kate loves him as much as you say she does, then why hasn't she tried to "get with" Sawyer before when they were back on their island? Kate has had many chances to be with Sawyer, but besides some flirting here and there, she hasn't behaved as though she wants to be with him.

They were acting under pure passion and emotion. Kate is not the type of person who would think to herself "well he's going to die...so I might as well throw him a bone".

Kate is exactly that type of person.

She was scared...and she thought she'd never get a chance to show him she cared.

But yet the day before she retracted an "I love him" statement made about Sawyer while Pickett was beating him. If she really cared that much for Sawyer, she would not have retracted that "I love him."

I for one have been paying plenty of attention. If he cared about her so much, why no thank you for coming to save him? Why not so much as a gentle squeeze of her shoulder as he left her - in all likelihood forever, given the infinitesimal odds that he will ever be able to return? Why not even a backward glance?

If that is love, it is a love entirely devoid of passion. In fact, it is a love entirely devoid of COMpassion. Leaving a woman in handcuffs in the hands of killers is not love. It isn't even basic human decency.

In my opinion, the reason that Jack didn't throw his arms around Kate (who I think it was made pretty obvious Wednesday that he is in love with) the moment he saw her is that he is putting up his guard so that Kate cannot hurt him again. Kate hurt him badly.
So he sits far away from her and acts distant. If he lets her back in again, he sets himself up to be hurt again.

I also believe that Jack's love for Kate is not passionless but built completely on compassion. Jack wants only Kate's happiness. He accepts that she wants Sawyer(or so he thinks) and loves her enough not to interfere. That is true love. Jack's selflessness is true love. I don't know many people who would, after having their heart broken, have intentions to come back for the person who broke their heart knowing that that person is in love with someone else. Jack would.

Jack is a very mature person, and I believe he only wants the best for people. He wants only the best for Kate. To claim he lacks basic human decency, well that's quite a fallacy indeed.

nothing can convince me that he did the right thing leaving her behind like that.

I think that says it all.

I can see things are getting heated in here and, as usual, no one's really willing to actually listen to or consider what anyone else has to say. So, I'm off. Have fun, ladies.;)

It is obviously interpreted differently, that is part of TPTB's plan presumably. Just because I interpret scenes differently to some people doesn't mean I'm right or wrong or that you're wrong or right. We can only speak for ourselves, not what other fans think.

I'm not speaking for anyone EXCEPT the people that I TALK TO IN PERSON lol. Where I work, I talk to hundreds of people daily (and no we just don't sit around talking about Lost) and these people change from one day to the next. There isn't ANYONE I have spoken to in person that thinks Jack isn't in love with Kate. I'm not saying that the whole world believes exactly how I and my friends, co-workers, their friends, my customers etc. think, but I can tell you what those that I associate with do think, because they have told me.

How does Jack know that Ben keeps his word?

Ben told Jack that he would send him "home" if Jack would agree to do the surgery. Well, Ben made that promise come true for him, or tried to before Locke entered the picture lol. Also, I do think Ben might have came right out and told him that he is a man of his word.

Kate did not say that - she told Jack she had to believe them because Sawyer's life was possibly in danger. That's different to actually trusting them.

Jack doesn't really put his complete trust in them (and how could he considering everything the others have done) but he did believe that Ben would release Kate and Sayid after he left the island. Also, I wasn't blaming Kate. :rolleyes: I was just saying that Kate did believe the others as well when they told her that if Jack did the surgery, they would release all three of them.

Kate's sleeping with Sawyer because she thought he was a dead man does not equate to having 'pity sex' with him.

It does if you are not in love with him and I don't believe Kate is in love with Sawyer.

Gregg Nations, who writes the ABC recaps basically said that "pity sex" was written in the script and that when Sawyer called her on only having sex with him because she thought he was a dead man, she was taken aback that he was right.

I can't read the ABC recaps because my computer's all screwy and keeps trying to shut down on me when I click on the link. But if someone would care to post it here?

I never doubted that Sawyer was telling her that he thought she had sex with him out of pity. That's why I found it so offensive. And I can imagine if they were describing it in the script that's the word they would use to describe the way he said it. But the only thing I've heard confirmed was that Kate knew he was right that she slept with Sawyer because she thought he was going to die...which I've never contested. I read what Gregg said in the VIP section (which was also intended to be humourous obviously not merely informative ;) ), and I completely agree with how he described the situation. Kate was basically saying that if she had to admit it to herself she did sleep with him 'a little' because she thought he was going to die. But again, that doesn't mean that it was pity. It was about their time running out, and both of them really emotional at that moment. I firmly admit that if it hadn't been for the situation it would have taken them WAAAY more time to get to that point (if ever!) because they're both so guarded. And I think there is a part of both of them that wants to take it back...not because they don't care for eachother...but because it would make things easier if they didn't have to deal with it.


That's your interpretation of that scene. Gregg recently said that what Sawyer should apologize to Kate for is his treatment of her after the sex, not necessarily Sawyer calling her out on the pity sex, but just his behavior in general. All of that is of course Gregg's own interpretation. I agree to some extent, but I think what Kate wanted Sawyer to apologize for was the way he didn't seem to care about Jack's current circumstances.

He actually indicated that it was everything, including the comment he made, that Kate wanted Sawyer to apologize for. But I think that's definitely a part of her annoyance. He was being cruel for no reason. I don't think Kate ever thought that Sawyer didn't care about Jack. I just think that Kate was more distressed emotionally at leaving him behind because of her feelings for him and because of the type of person Jack is. Kate and Sawyer were bickering because he was being bossy...not listening to her...in a way he never usually does. And part of their bickering was about going back for Jack...but it wasn't about Sawyer not caring. It was about him insisting they couldn't turn back RIGHT THEN. Which they couldn't...it would have been disastourous...and I think even Kate knows that. She was just torn.

After she said asked him for an apology, she then followed that up with, we can start over and wipe the slate clean. Now if the sex was that important for her, why would she want to essentially forget about it, hence wiping the slate clean? .

I don't think she meant wipe the slate clean in terms of the sex they had. It was pretty clear to me that she meant they could stop fighting and start over. Which I think is a sweet thing. She doesn't want there to be this friction between them after what happened. It's not making either of them feel good. I say that to my boyfriend all the time...and I don't want him forget any sex we had ;)..I just want us to forget whatever we're fighting about and go back to being happy.

No, her feelings for Jack doesn't make sex with Sawyer simply pity, but I still believe that Kate isn't in love with Sawyer. Imo, when you take the circumstances both her and Sawyer were in and you combine that with the fact that she isn't in love with him, the sex does seem like pity.

I don't believe she's in love with EITHER Sawyer or Jack yet. If she really was in love with Jack completely it would be very hard for her to sleep with someone else. You don't have to LOVE everyone you have sex with. But you do have to genuinely care deeply for them. And I think that she's shown that she really does feel that way about Sawyer. Think of it this way. You have someone who you were growing closer to every day, you have deep feelings for them, and you think that maybe you might love them. Then you're throwin into this horrible situation where you watch him get beaten and have his life threatened. Somone then comes along and says "say goodbye to this guy, 'cause he's dead tomorrow". And you think that this is someone who you're growing to love. I don't know about you, but I'd be really panicked at the thought of losing them. Because what if they are the person I'm supposed to be with. What if they die now and I never find out where this feeling is going? The idea of having blossoming love cut short by someone's death is pretty scary. In that situation sleeping with Sawyer for Kate was because she was desperate. And not in a bad way. She had no power to keep him safe. She'd begged Jack and that hadn't worked. She cared about him and she was about to watch him die and never know what they could have had together. So she acted on that. That's how I saw it personally. Sex can still be passionate and meaningful without full-fledged love. Especially for someone like Kate...because love is such a huge deal and she rarely lets herself get close at all. So to be close to someone that way...to feel like you didn't want to lost them THAT much. That was a big deal for her.



If Kate loves him as much as you say she does, then why hasn't she tried to "get with" Sawyer before when they were back on their island? Kate has had many chances to be with Sawyer, but besides some flirting here and there, she hasn't behaved as though she wants to be with him

Again, I don't think that Kate loves Sawyer. I think she cares deeply for him and the possibility is there. There's been plenty of indication that she really cares for him...her sitting by his bedside, caring for him as he recovered, being really empathetic towards him, etc, etc. But she didn't try to 'get with' him before because what was the rush? She was still unsure of her feelings...of what she wanted. And she didn't want to complicate anything. There was no reason to jump into bed with the guy. It's only when you realize "it's now or never" that you have to act on it. That didn't exist when they weren't captured. She thought she had all the time in the world to figure out how she was feeling.

But yet the day before she retracted an "I love him" statement made about Sawyer while Pickett was beating him. If she really cared that much for Sawyer, she would not have retracted that "I love him."

She was mad at him when she retracted it. She was trying to get him out...to get THEM out and he was giving up. He wouldn't tell her what was going on and he was shutting her out. So she shut him out too. Having said that I do think that she wasn't sure she loved him when she said that to Pickett. But again, you don't have time to think about it. She cares about him and she hated watching him get hurt, so she said it. But she still isn't sure if it't true.
100%

It does if you are not in love with him and I don't believe Kate is in love with Sawyer.

I've slept with people I didn't love before. I was dating them...I really liked them, but it turned out love wasn't in our future. But never at any point did I feel sorry for them.

And yeah...if I thought that someoneI was growing to care for was going to DIE before we really got the chance to be together...I'd probably want to experience it. It's really horrible when you lose something just as it's getting good. And you wa