If we are to believe Ben, he was going to let jack & Juliet leave the island in the sub. The first question that comes to mind is....... who is going to pilot it? Neither J or J has any apparent submarine experience. This doesn't sound plausible.

Jack's demeanor ,IMHO , seemed to indicate that he knew the whole deal was BS and would never happen! Whats more , I cannot see him simply leaving the island(and the other losties) and saving his own hide , even if he was thinking of possibly returning with help.

According to BigBen , the anomaly destroyed the communication with the outer world and now , no one will be able to find their way back to the island. If we are to believe this, they are all now stuck on the island forever with no hope of getting off it.

Hmmm, I 'm not buying it .

Is it that far fetched to assume a pilot was going to take them in the sub? Plus, there were a bunch of Others who came with Jack and Juliet to the sub.

Not far fetched at all , But according to Ben, the sub would not be able to find its way back to the island since the anomaly ruined the communication.

So we are to believe that he would let them go and give up not only the sub but some Other who could pilot it.

Well if the Submarine couldn't get back then Ben really doesn't have use for someone who can pilot a submarine anymore does he?

All I can say is Ben lies. He knew full well that he was never letting them (Jack & Jules) leave. I'm quite sure that Locke if anything became "plan B" I sure Ben already had a plan in place to keep them from leaving because he stated it would make his position look weak if he gave in to them.

Just remember what Ben said when he took Sawyer to the top of the hill to show him he was on another island: "You may be a good con man but we are better". Not "I'm better", "we are better".

Conning seems to be the central emphasis of this show. Some of the characters are cons and others are victims of cons. Could it be that the who thing, the crash, the events on the island, are all one big con game? And if so, what would be the reason to create such an elaborate con? Maybe to get at Hurley's money? And now Cooper comes back into the picture, another con man.

I'm starting to think the sub was a fake, a prop that Locke was meant to blow up. Maybe as a way to divide Jack and Locke further. One thing is for sure, the Losties are being manipulated by events. Who is running this con and to what end?

If the sub was a fake, John probably knew it was fake. and, like mentioned before, maybe he never actually blew the sub.

Well if the Submarine couldn't get back then Ben really doesn't have use for someone who can pilot a submarine anymore does he?

Except that Ben stated that the sub served as some sort of soothing "illusion" for the "recruits" in that they believed that they could possibly leave the island at some point.

I think there's more going on with Jack than we know right now. He seemed to be choosing his words carefully in his convo with Kate. And right before Tom left Jack with Kate, he warned Jack to be careful and motioned as if to remind Jack there are eyes everywhere, so to speak. Jack trusting Ben to let Kate and Sayid go...I dunno. Did Jack, Juliet, and Tom hatch a plan that went beyond Jack and Jules taking off on the sub for parts unknown? I kinda got that feeling. Maybe I'm wrong, but Matthew Fox appeared to be playing a lot of subtext in all of Jack's interactions last night.

Well if the Submarine couldn't get back then Ben really doesn't have use for someone who can pilot a submarine anymore does he?

I think that's all that needs to be said on this subject.

I think there's more going on with Jack than we know right now. He seemed to be choosing his words carefully in his convo with Kate....Maybe I'm wrong, but Matthew Fox appeared to be playing a lot of subtext in all of Jack's interactions last night.

I totally agree. At first I was just chalking it up to the fact that Jack just didn't have the nerve to tell Kate that he was getting off the island, but even after that finally came out, there was something off about Jack tonight that I can't quite put my finger on.

On another note, perhaps Jack and Juliette weren't the only ones leaving. Maybe some of the people with Jack and Juliette at the dock were some of the other "undedicated" recruits taking advantage of the Sub's trip to get off the island as well, thus making Ben's dilemna even sore serious?

I totally agree. At first I was just chalking it up to the fact that Jack just didn't have the nerve to tell Kate that he was getting off the island, but even after that finally came out, there was something off about Jack tonight that I can't quite put my finger on.


Definitely off. He was so subservient and docile, a total 180 from kidney nicking Jack. "I know you don't owe me anything Ben, but could you let my pals go pretty please?" Uh huh, very un-Jack-like.

I tend to believe Ben on this one. I think that when he said that his hand was forced to allow Jack and Juliet leave the island, he was telling the truth. I believe this for a couple of reasons. The first is just what he claimed: that his people had to see that he would stand by his word, and so when he told Juliet and Jack both that he would allow them to leave if they kept their end of the bargain, he had to stick by his promise. THis was reinforced because of Alex's reaction to when she asked Jack why he saved Ben's life, and Jack said it was because he had promised he would do so, which surprised Alex (I believe) because she was not prepared for someone who was not an "Other" to stick by there word, even if it meant saving your enemy's life.

The other reason is because I think Ben is beginning to think that both Jack and Juliet are liabilities to his maintaining control over all of the Others. He wanted them off the island, and that was why he was willing to let them go.

What I don't understand is just how they were going to arrange the piloting of the sub. Perhaps they intended on sailing it on top of the water. The other men in the company that were escorting Jack and Juliet to the sub were probably going to get the submarine under way and pointed in the correct compass heading, and then return on another boat (they do have another boat, we saw it in "Stranger in a Strange Land"). That way all Jack and Juliet would have to do is just keep the engines running and the sub pointed in the right direction - not very difficult.

I think there's more going on with Jack than we know right now. He seemed to be choosing his words carefully in his convo with Kate.

That's not surprising however, b/c Jack knows there are people listening to his conversation with Kate. Tom even motioned to his ears before leaving the game room or whatever it was that people were listening. I don't think it was a friendly gesture to Jack, it was a warning: "Be careful what you say Jack...."
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Well if the Submarine couldn't get back then Ben really doesn't have use for someone who can pilot a submarine anymore does he?

Unless of course, that submarine pilot is important in other things as well. Maybe (s)he has other skills and abilities and is very important to the Others.

I think we can figure out who at least one of the sub pilots are. Doesn't the group that goes to the sailboat where Sun kills Collen use the sub? I thought I remembered that after Colleen got shot, Ben says somethign like, "the sub's back and there's a problem." Who was on that "mission"? We saw Tom and Colleen obviously. Who else was there?

I think it's feasable that several of the Others were trained to use that sub. But I don't think there was one person inparticular who's only job was to pilot the sub.

I think logic would dictate that the Others have someone capable of piloting a submarine. I don't recall Ben saying that Juliet or Jack were going to be operating it.

I tend to believe Ben on this one. I think that when he said that his hand was forced to allow Jack and Juliet leave the island, he was telling the truth. I believe this for a couple of reasons. The first is just what he claimed: that his people had to see that he would stand by his word, and so when he told Juliet and Jack both that he would allow them to leave if they kept their end of the bargain, he had to stick by his promise. THis was reinforced because of Alex's reaction to when she asked Jack why he saved Ben's life, and Jack said it was because he had promised he would do so, which surprised Alex (I believe) because she was not prepared for someone who was not an "Other" to stick by there word, even if it meant saving your enemy's life.

The other reason is because I think Ben is beginning to think that both Jack and Juliet are liabilities to his maintaining control over all of the Others. He wanted them off the island, and that was why he was willing to let them go.


It really doesn't make sense to me that Ben would want the only two doctors left to get off the island, especially with the way he's healing. He was thrilled that Locke blowing up the sub gave him an "out" on that promise.

I started a thread but isn't everyone wondering if the sub is the only way off the island.... how did MICHAEL & WALT leave ON A BOAT??

I don't think Ben was going to let Jack or Juliet off the island.If Locke hadn't come along and blew up the sub. I believe Ben would had them killed in seceret.

Ben does not want anyone else coming to island and letting anyone off it could cause at the least a search.

He managed to cut off any commication with the outside world by getting Locke not to push the button. Which I'm sure Ben knew excatally what would happen.

Ben does not want anyone else coming to island and letting anyone off it could cause at the least a search.

He managed to cut off any commication with the outside world by getting Locke not to push the button. Which I'm sure Ben knew excatally what would happen.

Why would Ben go to all the trouble of setting that whole complicated scenario up which could have gone wrong for him in so many ways when all he had to do was blow up the Flame himself?

I do agree with you about Ben not wanting anyone else either coming or going, though. Personally, I don't think that Jack and Juliet would have gotten off the island anyway - I just don't think that right at this point anyone can get off the island... In the end Ben knew they would eventually return to the island just like Desmond did when he tried to sail away. And just like Michael and Walt will do...