Something just occurred to me as i was reading through all of the new posts - especially the ones about ben's skill at manipulating people. Remember last season - it was Ben who got Locke to doubt himself and his faith in pushing 'The Button'. Maybe this was part of ben's plan all along -- to completely isolate the island from the outside world so his 'people' would lose hope of ever leaving and commit to the island - to ben's 'society'. Maybe Ben's plan in getting captured was to get the 'Anomaly' to occur by getting Locke to stop pressing the button and thereby destroying their ability to communicate with the outside world? Now he has manipulated Locke into destroying the sub -- he has what he wants.

just a thought.. ????

I was just thinking about that tonight too. There's one thing that still doesn't make sense, though. Why did Ben have to manipulate Locke into not pressing the button when Ben himself could have simply not pressed the button? Locke was pinned under the blast door at the time, so it was up to Ben to do it.

I used to believe that too ..but the PODcast said

Ben did not know about the swan until possibly after the crash

Ben seems even more sly than he did when we first met him. He knows exactly what everyone's reaction will be and he uses that to his benefit. I think Locke may be the one person that's finally caught onto him.

I was just thinking about that tonight too. There's one thing that still doesn't make sense, though. Why did Ben have to manipulate Locke into not pressing the button when Ben himself could have simply not pressed the button? Locke was pinned under the blast door at the time, so it was up to Ben to do it.

Because Ben wanted Locke to come to the conclusion on his own, just like he wanted Jack to WANT to operate on him, not be forced into it. I think Ben wants everyone to believe as he does but if he doesn't get his way he'll manipulate the situation any way he can. He's a control freak extraordinaire!

Also, if Ben had not pressed the button at the time he would have been trapped in there with Locke when the place imploded/blew up. Better, to put the doubt/time-bomb into Locke's mind, then get away before the place blows.

I think Ben pressed the button, because if he hadn't, and "the anomaly" had occured, the Others would have taken issue with it, the same reason he couldn't do away with the submarine. So, by maniupalting John to do it, he saved face with the Others, and still accomplished his objective.

Ben seems even more sly than he did when we first met him. He knows exactly what everyone's reaction will be and he uses that to his benefit. I think Locke may be the one person that's finally caught onto him.

Ben had shown himself to be a crafty manipulator in the past, but I think this episode really brought forth his ability as a leader. You're not going to lead a large group with the strategy of trying to have full control over one person at a time. Ben's speech to Locke about his situation in allowing Jack to leave really demonstrated leadership qualities I do not think we've seen from any of the potential leaders of the 815 survivors.

I also think Locke has caught onto him. Alex told Locke the full con with blowing up the submarine, and Locke still went and did it. At the end when Locke admitted to Ben that he realize he'd been conned, I think it was really Locke conning Ben. He's way too narcissitic of a character to admit someone had beat him at a mind game like that, and he had full awareness that blowing up the sub was something Ben wanted before he did it.

I, too, think that Ben wanted Locke to stop pushing the button. But one thing keeps throwing me off. If Ben didn't know about Desmond, he probably wasn't counting on the failsafe key being turned. If that is true, what was Ben ultimately trying to accomplish? What would have happened had Desmond not returned and turned the key?

I thought the Pearl station was what made Locke loose faith and stop pushing the button. That's how I saw it. I don't know what reason Ben would have to want the button to stop being pushed. Wouldn't the magnetic anomoly or whatever just get huge and destroy everything?

I also think Locke has caught onto him. Alex told Locke the full con with blowing up the submarine, and Locke still went and did it. At the end when Locke admitted to Ben that he realize he'd been conned, I think it was really Locke conning Ben. He's way too narcissitic of a character to admit someone had beat him at a mind game like that, and he had full awareness that blowing up the sub was something Ben wanted before he did it.

this is where im at too. ben is an extremely good manipulator and has constructed many (IMO, more than we know) of the situations that the Losties have gone through. but, like you said, johns got his number. not only that, he gained control away from ben multiple times in tonights episode. furthermore, ben in turn also realizes johns awareness of himself, and it scares and worries him, but everytime john did take over, ben trumped him in short time. i.e. the cliffhanger via his "dad".

Ben had shown himself to be a crafty manipulator in the past, but I think this episode really brought forth his ability as a leader. You're not going to lead a large group with the strategy of trying to have full control over one person at a time. Ben's speech to Locke about his situation in allowing Jack to leave really demonstrated leadership qualities I do not think we've seen from any of the potential leaders of the 815 survivors.

as far as being a leader, yeah, he's good. but in a CHARLIE MANSON type of way. IMO, a lot of what he was saying to john one on one tonight was pure lies. ben knows john has a link with the island that is more powerful than his own, so he has to flex his muscle and one-up john without giving away his hand.

it appeared that locke at last heard what no one
else has admited - that locke has a connection with
the island.

i think locke believes he has an edge over
ben and admits it - "... you're in a wheelchair
and i am not."

that comment says a lot. to me it appears
that ben knows that locke really is special
and ben knows that locke knows that he knows.

and now we know.

p.s. okay my grammar might be a little off
but ya'll get the point. right?
yeah, i was a business major
not a grammar major.

*****************************************
"sometimes it's the littlest kid who fights hardest."

from: really important stuff my kids have taught me
by cynthia copeland lewis

this is where im at too. ben is an extremely good manipulator and has constructed many (IMO, more than we know) of the situations that the Losties have gone through. but, like you said, johns got his number. not only that, he gained control away from ben multiple times in tonights episode. furthermore, ben in turn also realizes johns awareness of himself, and it scares and worries him, but everytime john did take over, ben trumped him in short time. i.e. the cliffhanger via his "dad".



as far as being a leader, yeah, he's good. but in a CHARLIE MANSON type of way. IMO, a lot of what he was saying to john one on one tonight was pure lies. ben knows john has a link with the island that is more powerful than his own, so he has to flex his muscle and one-up john without giving away his hand.


His manipulations work on everybody BUT alex....when he tried his BS she said "dad" and he shut up.

I also think Locke has caught onto him. Alex told Locke the full con with blowing up the submarine, and Locke still went and did it. At the end when Locke admitted to Ben that he realize he'd been conned, I think it was really Locke conning Ben. He's way too narcissitic of a character to admit someone had beat him at a mind game like that, and he had full awareness that blowing up the sub was something Ben wanted before he did it.

This also works if Locke didn't blow up the sub. Either way, I agree, I think that Locke is onto Ben.
100%
His manipulations work on everybody BUT alex....when he tried his BS she said "dad" and he shut up.

Which for me, further reinforces the idea that she is Rousseau's daughter and Rousseau's daughter alone. I think that Ben "adopted" her.

You know, I'm going to be honest. I still don't know what to think of Ben's motive for lying to Locke whether he knew or did not know. If he knew, why would he want communications down (or would he have known the side effet in the first place). If he didn't know, I wouldn't know why he would work with something something he doesn't understand.

It's beyond me why Ben Linus did what he did. I can tell you this much, tho, he did look surprised when the sky turned purple.

Which for me, further reinforces the idea that she is Rousseau's daughter and Rousseau's daughter alone. I think that Ben "adopted" her.

Totally agree. I believe her biological father was Robert, who most likely was infected with a virus by Ben's people, leading to Danielle having to kill him. When Alex finds all this out, boy had Ben better look out! It sure would be sweet...mother and daughter teaming up to take him down! Poor guy! (not!) :biggrin:

This is a great theory, but how would Ben have known that Desmond would turn the key, and stop the world from imploding?

Why did Ben have to manipulate Locke into not pressing the button when Ben himself could have simply not pressed the button? I think it happened just like Ben said. The timer reset itself automatically. During a lockdown, wouldn't there have to be a contingency for having your people stuck behind blast doors?

Now he has manipulated Locke into destroying the sub -- he has what he wants.



reminds me of the serpent approaching a man fasting for 40 days.....and tempting him to doubt the one message that Saves(?) mankind.

i think you're on to summin......but once Ben heals through Locke's help, the merde will truly hit the fan!

great post.

jobe

Something just occurred to me as i was reading through all of the new posts - especially the ones about ben's skill at manipulating people. Remember last season - it was Ben who got Locke to doubt himself and his faith in pushing 'The Button'. Maybe this was part of ben's plan all along -- to completely isolate the island from the outside world so his 'people' would lose hope of ever leaving and commit to the island - to ben's 'society'. Maybe Ben's plan in getting captured was to get the 'Anomaly' to occur by getting Locke to stop pressing the button and thereby destroying their ability to communicate with the outside world? Now he has manipulated Locke into destroying the sub -- he has what he wants.

just a thought.. ????

There has been some very in-depth discussion about this idea on this thread (http://thefuselage.com/Threaded/showthread.php?t=72317) that I started a few weeks ago.

I used to believe that too ..but the PODcast said

Ben did not know about the swan until possibly after the crash

Just as John Burger states in his spoiler text, Damon and Carlton said in last week's podcast something that basically took this theory and tossed it out the window. It is funny to me, because I was absolutely convinced that this was a rock-solid theory with no holes in it, too. :redface: Oh well, just goes to show that sometimes you set your theories up like bowling pins, and then TPTB come along with their bowling balls and knock em down! LOL!

Im trying to piece this together myself.

Assuming the others never knew of the swan station.
Why lie to Locke about pushing the button?
I can understand that if Ben wanted the button NOT to be pushed,
he must also have wanted it to happen when he was far away,
therefore he lied to Locke knowing that the natural curiosity
of anyone would eventually lead to not pushing the button.
After all, Ben is good at this stuff.

But why?
Was he curious?
Did he think it was just a hoax?

-Exodus

I would find it hard to believe that Benry has been on the island his entire life and has no knowledge of The Swan or The Incident. The incident seemed to be a pretty big deal by all accounts.

I would find it hard to believe that Benry has been on the island his entire life and has no knowledge of The Swan or The Incident. The incident seemed to be a pretty big deal by all accounts.

Well, they haven't put a transcript up yet for the podcast from Carlton and Damon last week, but you can go to the Lostpedia article here (http://lostpedia.com/wiki/Official_Lost_Podcast/March_20%2C_2007) to look at commentary about what they said regarding this subject, as well as connecting to the podcast where you may listen for yourself to what they said.

It's pretty solid, though. I mean, if Damon and Carlton say something, and say it the way they did in the podcast - repeatedly and emphatically - then it's as close to gospel canon truth as you can get in Lost... And they said quite clearly that Ben and the Others had no real knowledge of the Swan. It really turned some of my theories upside down, so it's not like I'm touting it to prove anything - rather, it's always a good thing to be open for new data to be able to incorporate it into one's analysis, no?

Of course, this is not to say that once Ben was inside the Swan, and saw what was going on with the computer, the 108 minutes, the numbers, and the button, that he didn't then decide to try to see what he could do to manipulate Locke or someone else into not pushing the button. Actually, from all the evidence we have, I think that is precisely what Ben tried to do. Why else would he have lied to Locke about pushing the button during "Lockdown"? Why else would he have tried to convince him it was all a bunch of hooey?

From what we learned from the podcast, though, I am beginning to think that Ben really didn't fully understand what would happen once the button was not pushed. I'm sure he didn't believe that the whole world would have "imploded"... I mean, Ben doesn't want to wipe out the entire planet, himself and his community included.

From what we learned from the podcast, though, I am beginning to think that Ben really didn't fully understand what would happen once the button was not pushed. I'm sure he didn't believe that the whole world would have "imploded"... I mean, Ben doesn't want to wipe out the entire planet, himself and his community included.

I don't think that the world would have imploded - but I think that the island and whatever 'bubble' it's existing in would have.

That begs the question - why would Henry, errrr Ben, put himself in extreme danger then if he wasn't specifically trying to get into the Swan? Just to gather info on the Losties, or another reason?

Any why exactly would have want Locke to stop pushing the button? Even if he didn't know about the Swan before he was taken there, once he was aware of the situation he must have known that not pushing it could have extremely dangerous consequences.

why not just get one of his trusted boys to break the beacon themselves and say it stopped working? then just say the sub broke down and communications arent working. "welp guys.... theyre out! OOPS!" haha

if the guy is psychotic enough to go through manipulative plans like this (that take entire seasons to unfold) to get a few objects broken, then this show is borderline psycho.

i was under the impression that the Others werent exactly sure of the button pushing activities since multiple people (tom) seemed to have no idea where the anomaly came from and didnt seem too surprised when it happened. they just knew it put communications down.

and if the others really wanted them to stop pushing the button, they could have just came in there armed to the teeth and blew the computer up themselves. how hard would that have been? they infiltrated their whole camp with just two scouts. seems very methodical and high risk (sure, its going to work, its TV).


Something just occurred to me as i was reading through all of the new posts - especially the ones about ben's skill at manipulating people. Remember last season - it was Ben who got Locke to doubt himself and his faith in pushing 'The Button'. Maybe this was part of ben's plan all along -- to completely isolate the island from the outside world so his 'people' would lose hope of ever leaving and commit to the island - to ben's 'society'. Maybe Ben's plan in getting captured was to get the 'Anomaly' to occur by getting Locke to stop pressing the button and thereby destroying their ability to communicate with the outside world? Now he has manipulated Locke into destroying the sub -- he has what he wants.

just a thought.. ????

Of course, this is not to say that once Ben was inside the Swan, and saw what was going on with the computer, the 108 minutes, the numbers, and the button, that he didn't then decide to try to see what he could do to manipulate Locke or someone else into not pushing the button. Actually, from all the evidence we have, I think that is precisely what Ben tried to do. Why else would he have lied to Locke about pushing the button during "Lockdown"? Why else would he have tried to convince him it was all a bunch of hooey?I'm not convinced Ben did lie to Locke about pushing the button. I think it's possible the button-pushing process could become automated during a lockdown, in which case Ben would be telling the truth about the timer resetting by itself.

I think Ben thought it was a psychological experiment and had no idea pushing the button prevented an island disaster. We definitely have no reason to think he knew about the failsafe key.

i think locke believes he has an edge over
ben and admits it - "... you're in a wheelchair
and i am not."

BUT: does Ben really need to be in a wheelchair? Or is part of long con to provoke Locke into revealing more about this connection than he should?
100%
I think it happened just like Ben said. The timer reset itself automatically. During a lockdown, wouldn't there have to be a contingency for having your people stuck behind blast doors?
Good point!

That begs the question - why would Henry, errrr Ben, put himself in extreme danger then if he wasn't specifically trying to get into the Swan? Just to gather info on the Losties, or another reason?

I still think Ben coerced Danielle into faking his capture and turning him over to the Survivors in order for him to infiltrate their group. Here is why:

1) What reason would Danielle have had to turn Ben over to the Survivors?
2) Ben sent two men to infiltrate the groups of Survivors. Both were killed. The man he sent to infiltrate the Survivors of Locke's and Jack's group (Ethan) did not successfully complete his assignment - he didn't produce a comprehensive "list" for Ben. So Ben decided to take matters into his own hands and infiltrate the group himself. He knew that if he just showed up that the Survivors would be highly suspicious of him, so he coerced Danielle (by somehow using Alex as the bargaining chip) to get him introduced into the Survivor camp. He figured if the job needed to be done, he was probably the best person to do it, since he is a master at manipulating people and getting information out of them.
3) I think Danielle sort of renigged on her part of the agreement. I don't think she was supposed to tell the Survivors that Ben was an "Other" and not to trust anything he says, and I don't think that she was supposed to shoot Ben in the shoulder with an arrow. I think she did those things as payback for Ben stealing Alex away from her and forcing her to go along with his scheme to infiltrate the Survivors.

Any why exactly would have want Locke to stop pushing the button? Even if he didn't know about the Swan before he was taken there, once he was aware of the situation he must have known that not pushing it could have extremely dangerous consequences.

This goes along with the theory that Ben is part of the "Nativist" group of Others who seek to restore the Island to its original balance before Dharma came to mess things up. I have a theory that the reason the people on the Island are infertile was due to the existence of the Dharma electromagnetic thingy in the Swan. Once Ben figured out what it was, he wanted to get rid of it as part of the process of restoring the Island to its pre-Dharma pristine condition.
100%
I'm not convinced Ben did lie to Locke about pushing the button. I think it's possible the button-pushing process could become automated during a lockdown, in which case Ben would be telling the truth about the timer resetting by itself.

Uhm, well, both times that we know of when the button was NOT pushed on time resulted in very incredibly high levels of electromagnetic energy being released. The first time brought Flight 815 out of the sky, breaking it into pieces. The second time resulted in the Swan basically turning into a nightmare in front of our eyes. Had Ben NOT pushed the button, the exact thing we saw in the final destruction of the Swan where things were flying around and all would have taken place. Ben had to have entered the numbers and reset the 108 minutes on the clock.

I think Ben thought it was a psychological experiment and had no idea pushing the button prevented an island disaster. We definitely have no reason to think he knew about the failsafe key.

I agree he didn't know about the failsafe key. I completely disagree about the psychological experiment angle.

I still think Ben coerced Danielle into faking his capture and turning him over to the Survivors in order for him to infiltrate their group.I think you're right on here. There's another thing, too: seeing what she did to Sayid when she captured him, it seems odd if she captured someone she knew was an Other she would just hand him over to the Losties.

Uhm, well, both times that we know of when the button was NOT pushed on time resulted in very incredibly high levels of electromagnetic energy being released.Right. But what I'm suggesting is during a lockdown (food drop protocol), the button might be automated. It wouldn't make sense to have the Swan residents stuck behind blast doors if they were supposed to be pressing a button.

I completely disagree about the psychological experiment angle.Interesting. If there was no failsafe key, I think the whole island would have imploded. Do you think Ben was trying to destroy the island, or he just didn't know?

Personally my take is that Ben was on his way to spy on the Losties and try to get in touch with Locke in the jungle.
His idea was probably to get Locke alone and try to recruit him.
After all this happens right after the others met Locke, and probably realizes he is no longer in a wheelchair.

He gets caught by Danielle by accident.


Ok so he did not know anything about the swan,
that station was pretty damn hard to find,
all the other stations was pretty much cleaned out after all.
But Ben might have deduced what was going on there from knowledge of the incident.
He might just not have known where it was, or that there was someone there.


-Exodus

Right. But what I'm suggesting is during a lockdown (food drop protocol), the button might be automated.

Or maybe there is somebody elsewhere who can do it manually. We don't know who, if anybody, was really monitoring them in there yet.

I still halfway suspect there are two masterminds overseeing this whole thing who are basically playing chess with all these people on the island.