I was watching this episode with closed caption on. I noticed that right before all the spiders appeared around nikki, My closed caption read (distant rattling)., This has appeared before when Eko confronted the Smokey. hmmm....

I thought I head whispers - I was saying the monster the monster -
I thought there was only one spider in the jar and suddenly they were everywhere - it was like justice!

So Artz mentioned that the tiny amount of pheremones released by a female specimen of that spider would attract males from all over the island...

I'm not suggesting that Smokey is a huge spider or anything, but I think that the fact we heard Smokey right before the spiders showed up tells us that Smokey has some means of summoning them as well... thoughts??

Remember what Arzt said though--- the pheromones of that spider will bring all the male spiders on the island to it... i didn't catch any smoke sweeping by or whispers so i don't personally think it was the monster

however... with all the monster-talk in the episode, it wouldn't surprise me if they did in fact lead up to it... it could go either way really! gah!!

I was watching this episode with closed caption on. I noticed that right before all the spiders appeared around nikki, My closed caption read (distant rattling)., This has appeared before when Eko confronted the Smokey. hmmm....

I definitely heard the rattling and was like "There's the security system". It was definitely intentional IMO. Artz did say releasing the female spider would get all the male spiders to come, but I don't think it would be in a matter of seconds....

What I was trying to say, was that the rattling sound just kind of makes me think that the spiders may be manifestations like Kate's horse, Jack's Dad, stuff like that. Just an off the wall obervation

I think the male spiders showed up because of the reason that Arzt stated. But why did the rattling sound come too? And why didn't we see Smokey with it? Would we have seen Smokey if Nikki hadn't run away? Did Smokey show up and hang out with paralyzed Paulo for awhile? ;) Weird but cool.
I'm sure the penyours and rvturnage will take a listen to that scene and let us know if there is hidden audio/Whispers.

Yes, exactly...there was a similar clicking sound we've heard when the little Smokey goes zipping around...except that I didn't see him. I'll post to the Whispers thread for them to take a look-see...errrr, a listen-hear... ;)

Remember Dr. Artz saying that the female would attract males from all over if he let her out of the jar. So when Nicki threw the spider on him that's what attracted all the other spiders. The sound, I assume, was the sound of bunches of spiders crawling through the brush. Ewww. :fear3:

Edit: After reading a few of the other posts here, it looks as though I missed the smokey sound since several seem to have heard it. All I heard was the sort of creepy-crawly sound (that sort of "teeming jungle" sound that tv shows and movies use). I guess I missed the smokey sound. :shrug:

Definitely thought that was the smoke monster. I thought maybe the new spiders were supposed to be the monster. So the monster can just take any form now and do whatever?

I thought it was interesting that the sound normally associated with Smokey happened right at the time Nikki made a poor moral decision (unleash the spider on Paulo). Coincidence? Doubt it.

What I was trying to say, was that the rattling sound just kind of makes me think that the spiders may be manifestations like Kate's horse, Jack's Dad, stuff like that. Just an off the wall obervation

Not off the wall. That's exactly what it was. The rattling signals the monster.

My dad doesn't believe me that it was the monster.

Can somebody post an mp3 of the rattling from this ep?

Yep, I definitely heard the usual Smokey sound, similar to crickets on a summer night. Nikki heard it too and was looking around for the source of the sound. I have to agree with Rabidranger...it was her punishment for making an immoral decision. Like Eko, she didn't learn the lesson she was meant to on Redemption Isle. The spiders came for the female as explained, but Smokey was the reason Nikki got bit. Maybe it was the way Smokey distracted her, causing her to hesitate and be in the path of the poison spiders.

Yep, I definitely heard the usual Smokey sound, similar to crickets on a summer night. Nikki heard it too and was looking around for the source of the sound. I have to agree with Rabidranger...it was her punishment for making an immoral decision. Like Eko, she didn't learn the lesson she was meant to on Redemption Isle. The spiders came for female as explained, but Smokey was the reason Nikki got bit. Maybe it was the way Smokey distracted her, causing her to hesitate and be in the path of the poison spiders.

No question about it.

And going one step further..........Smokey knew what the outcome would be.

Kinda like Desmond. Now isn't that interesting.

Where's that jewelry store lady?

the sound you all heard was definitely the sound of the other spiders coming, like arzt said

not everything in the show is the monster. i loved the episode except that part, even the whole throwing the spider to paralyze him so she can steal the diamonds seemed a little ridiculous. sort of like the plot of an episode of "expose"!!

It was obviously the same pre-monster sound. And it was heard as they showed the close up of the spiders walking on the ground. Could that rattling sound be lots and lots of spiders?

I heard it on my tv, very clear audio. It was the smoke monster rattling sound, happened right before the male spiders started coming out of the brush.

I imagine squishing a female Medusa spider like Paolo did would release lots and lots of pheremones.

if you didnt hear the SMOKEY monster sound we have heard like 20 times before then yall got to get your ears checked. Its the same EXACT SOUND, no different from right before Ecko died.

Has it been discussed if Smokey can manifest itself into a nonliving thing?

As far as the living things go, Smokey manifests itself into people and animals that somewhat act as enablers. To get them to do something.

If Smokey could manifest itself into ANYTHING, it'd be the "game-changer". With this theory, Smokey manifests itself into the "nicotine gum" that just happened to 'fall' out of Paulo's pockets. It enabled Nikki whom seconds before just accepted the diamonds as lost, and was happy with Paulo, to become PISSED and vengeful. This set into motion tonights ending, all the Losties being semi involved in "murder".

Definitely the smoke monster ticking noise!

Go watch Exodus Part 2, The 23rd Psalm, and The Cost of Living and then compare it to the noise heard right before Nikki gets bitten. SAME EXACT NOISE.

1. Jack's dad
2. Sawyer's bore*
3. Kate's horse
4. Dave (Hurley's imaginary friend)
5. Eko's brother
6. Sayid's cat*
7. Locke's dad*

So can we now add the spiders that paralyzed Nikki to the list?

*Unconfirmed speculation

Yeah as soon as I heard the sound I was like, 'the smoke monster DID kill them.'

Also ... something that maybe lost in this ... when anything or anyone feels threatened their first reaction is to run away. Maybe the spiders where trying to flee from the smoke monster and were directed toward Nikki & Paulo.

Artz did say releasing the female spider would get all the male spiders to come, but I don't think it would be in a matter of seconds....

I'm not going to address the sound, just the power of instinct among living beings.

I don't know if you are all aware of this but there are small animals, such as (dare I say it?) hamsters, who can be treated lovingly by a human owner and become the most cuddly, gentle creatures on the face of the planet -- and yet,under certain circumstances, such as when they feel the need to guard their young or their "space" they can instantly transform into flesh-shredding demons determined to kill or be killed in defense of what they feel responsible for protecting. You can have the friendliest pet mouse for over a year and get nothing but licks and cuddles, then you innocently stick your hand inside its cage and withdraw a blood-spurting nub of a finger.

Now, these spiders clearly are common on the island, and when unprovoked, they may well live underground or in the weeds or whatever, hidden from the human eye and profoundly uninterested in people. There's nothing saying there can't be a hundred or more of 'em within ten square feet of any given spot. Now, introduce femme spider cologne, the known catalyst that triggers them into deadly action - guess what? You're covered in tiny fanged death-dealers as swiftly as if you'd tripped over an Africanized honeybee hive.

What DOES seem odd to me is the notion of both the make AND female of a species being equally poisonous - I'm no arachnid expert but don't most species of poisonous animals EITHER have deadly females OR males, not both? (I know, I should do my own research instead of just tossing that out atcha!)

- mnw

I think there is no doubt that the sound before Nikki was bitten by the spiders was the sound made by the smoke monster. My question is...did the monster summon the spiders, were the spiders a manifestation of the monster, or was the monster just around but not involved at all.

The sound the monster makes is there though.

I also agree that it was definetely smokie sounds... I'm not so sure about it being the spiders but I'm pretty sure Smokie was around spying on them. There were a couple of angles (like behind bushes, etc) that might support that idea.

What if smokey isn't an "IT" but a "SHE" and she is scared of spiders and just as she was getting ready to use Paulo to bludgeon Nikki, she saw the spiders and got scared and ran away? typical girl!

Does anyone think that "the smoke monster" may be linked to the "magical box" that Ben spoke of last episode? I know the spiders supposedly appeared because of the pheremones, but what if they appeared because Paulo wished that they would appear and bite Nikki. The smoke monster then manifested itself as the spider and did it.

Does anyone think that "the smoke monster" may be linked to the "magical box" that Ben spoke of last episode? I know the spiders supposedly appeared because of the pheremones, but what if they appeared because Paulo wished that they would appear and bite Nikki. The smoke monster then manifested itself as the spider and did it.

For what it's worth, I think you've hit the nail fairly and squarely on the head with this comment.

This is exactly as I interpreted it too.

What I was trying to say, was that the rattling sound just kind of makes me think that the spiders may be manifestations like Kate's horse, Jack's Dad, stuff like that. Just an off the wall obervation

I bet Sawyer's favorite leaf is the smoke monster as well....;)

I personally didn't hear the noise being referred to as I was too creaped out by the creepy crawly's. I HATE spiders.

I do agree with an earlier poster about females/males and only one of them being poisonous. To up that a little bit, I also recall that the males and females always look different and are of different size. These appeared to be the same kind of spiders which could debunk that the "phermones" were at play and give more credance to the "monster" / "box" theories.

Does anyone think that "the smoke monster" may be linked to the "magical box" that Ben spoke of last episode? I know the spiders supposedly appeared because of the pheremones, but what if they appeared because Paulo wished that they would appear and bite Nikki. The smoke monster then manifested itself as the spider and did it.

Nah, I think you're half right. Ben's magical box is probably Smokey, but I don't think the spiders were a manifestation. Art mentioned the pheromones for a reason and I don't think that reason was to distract you from blaming Smokey. I'm not saying that Smokey wasn't there, but the spiders were real and not Smokey.

At least that's what I think.

Nah, I think you're half right. Ben's Black Box is probably Smokey, but I don't think the spiders were a manifestation. Art mentioned the pheromones for a reason and I don't think that reason was to distract you from blaming Smokey. I'm not saying that Smokey wasn't there, but the spiders were real and not Smokey.That's what I think anyway.


The spiders were real, imho. I think we are getting confused by the term manifestation. The 'magic box' and smokey (from what we've seen and what we've been told) can manifest things - this doesn't make their existence any more or less valid or indeed any less real, just as Locke manifested rain when out hunting with Boone etc etc etc...

The spiders were real, imho. I think we are getting confused by the term manifestation. The 'magic box' and smokey (from what we've seen and what we've been told) can manifest things - this doesn't make their existence any more or less valid or indeed any less real, just as Locke manifested rain when out hunting with Boone etc etc etc...

When I say the spiders were not a manifestation I know what the means. A manifestation is something that is thought up and then appears out of thin air, it is not an illusion. I’m just saying I don’t think the spiders were a manifestation that just popped into existence from nothing.

When I say the spiders were not a manifestation I know what the means. A manifestation is something that is thought up and then appears out of thin air, it is not an illusion. I’m just saying I don’t think the spiders were a manifestation that just popped into existence from nothing.



...and I agree. I prefer to think of it as 'making things happen' or 'willing things to happen' rather than conjouring things out of, as you say, nothing. Hence, confusion over the term manifestation.

...and I agree. I prefer to think of it as 'making things happen' or 'willing things to happen' rather than conjouring things out of, as you say, nothing. Hence, confusion over the term manifestation.

So... someone was wishing the spiders to come and that's why they came. Or did the spiders come because of the satisfactory reason that Art gave us earlier in the episode? Sorry I think we’re over examining things, but hell I’m guilty of it too when I get a theory in my head :)

So... someone was wishing the spiders to come and that's why they came. Or did the spiders come because of the satisfactory reason that Art gave us earlier in the episode? Sorry I think we’re over examining things, but hell I’m guilty of it too when I get a theory in my head :)

Science vs Faith

Arzt vs. Paulo wanting Nicky bitten

:)

I'd like to think that this was the point. :biggrin:

For those that missed it or don't believe it's there I recorded a clip for you. The sound come in around 12 seconds in. You might want to turn your speakers up a bit.

Clip1 (http://www.geocities.com/gen_xxx2002/clip1.mp3)

If it was the pheremones, how could all those male spiders have appeared in what seemed like seconds after releasing the female?

This makes me think it was the island acting upon Nikki, knowing she was bad and sent in the spiders. Since smokey is tied in with the island, it could have something to do with it as well. I heard the rattles before also because I was looking for smokey the entire time. Something in the back of my head just said "That smoke thing is involved."

To paraphrase: Sometimes a spider is just a spider.

Smokey for sure...by the way, that noise sounds exactly like Locke's adding machine...

Science vs Faith

Arzt vs. Paulo wanting Nicky bitten

:)

I'd like to think that this was the point. :biggrin:

Yeah, I'll take that :)

I guess I just think that the writers are teasing us at this point because of all the posts every episode blaming Smokey for this and that. When Hugo blamed Smokey in this episode it seemed to be the writers way of letting us know that they are aware of the Smokey mania that the fans are experiencing. Don't get me wrong, I attribute many of the islands mysterious to Smokey... but I sure hope all the mysterious aren’t all linked to this one monster.

We need more things to point our fingers at when strange stuff happens. That would make for more interesting discussions. Cuz right now every strange occurrence on the island or in a flash back has people screaming Smokey.

Good thinking LostCandy. It is time we start pointing fingers at other things instead of hollering "Smokey, smokey!" right off the bat.

Um....I think it was just a clever plot twist, gang. The episode began with Nikki running for her life through the jungle, right?...So...at the end....when Nikki was standing over the fallen paralyzed Paulo...she hears the sound of the smoke monster...and it distracts her...perhaps she's heard the sound before...or it's the first time she's ever heard it....either way...the distraction gave the male spiders the time to reach her and crawl up Nikki's leg.

TPTB were trying to get us to be thinking...."Ahhh....THAT'S why she was running so fast at the beginning of the eppy....she was running from Smokey!"....when in reality it was the spiders that did her in because she (and some of us viewers) missed Arnzt's point about the phermones attracting MORE spiders.

It was a simple misdirection, IMO...Like when a character in a Friday the 13th type movie hears a noise in the basement....and goes to check it out...and while they are distracted by looking for the noise....The killer sneaks up behind them and starts hacking away. Same thing. It's merely a plot device.

I don't think Smokey "summoned" the spiders...the phermones did that...nor do I think Smokey took the "form of" the spiders. Smokey's rattling sound was there for only two reasons...1. To make US think Nikki was running from Smokey in the beginning...and 2. To distract Nikki long enough to allow the spider to deliver his paralyzing bite.

Period.

I agree with you 100%, Ator. If Smokey had wanted them dead, why take the form of/summon tiny fragile spiders?
Why not just pound them into the ground like what happened to Eko?
All the answers to the "mystery of the spiders" can be found in the scene with Nikki flirting (playing) with Arnzt.

Smokey for sure...by the way, that noise sounds exactly like Locke's adding machine...
I've thought that from the moment i saw the episode! Yes someone who agrees with me! My roommates think I look to much into the smokey sounds. yes yes I agree with you!:biggrin:

You know, the funny thing is.....all week I've been waiting for Lost, but when I tuned in at 9, our local channel was in the midst of a "special report". I'm in southern Colorado, and we had tornadoes touch down nearby (I was so pissed) anyway, the point is that they didn't start showing it until 20 minutes in, and kept cutting away for interviews etc.. So I got on here (the fuselage) and tried to piece together the episode.

I saw the scene in question, and this thread and thought....HOW COULD ANYONE MISS THAT SOUND, IT IS DEFINATELY SMOKEY!!!!! So.....today I went on the abc site to stream the episode, and....NO SOUND!! I couldn't believe it!! I went back through that scene 5 times and there was NO SMOKEY SOUND!!! Very curious. When watching last night it was very clear, today no sound.

So would there be some reason that TPTB

I must've not had my tv up loud enough or I was too caught up with figuring out what happened because I didn't hear any rattling. Personally, I don't think that scene had anything to do with the Monster. The sound editors possibly recycled the sound effect for the creepy crawlers.

oops, accidently posted before I finished. Is there some reason that TPTB doesn't want us to hear that sound? Or are the frequencies of sound on my computer THAT much different? If anyone else has streamed the episode from abc's website, have you been able to hear the "subway ticket" sound?

And by the way, I completely agree with ATOR's assessment of the scene, and also the science vs. faith dichotomy being played out.

And whether it is (real-life) possible or not for the spiders to arrive that quickly, Artz did say that the female had enough phermones to attract hundreds of male spiders in a matter of seconds. Also in most species of arachnids, both sexes have venom, with the female being slightly larger and containing stronger venom, but resembling eachother quite closely, save for a few minor differences. This would also lend creedance to why Nikki woke up first.

I've been surprised at the number of people who said they didn't hear it. Could this be another one of those easter eggs for HD viewers? Maybe the sound was just in the rear surrounds of the 5.1 mix not the analog channels stereo mix?

I've been surprised at the number of people who said they didn't hear it. Could this be another one of those easter eggs for HD viewers? Maybe the sound was just in the rear surrounds of the 5.1 mix not the analog channels stereo mix?


Yes, precisely my point, last night I was amazed at how many people did not hear the sound, it was not terribly discrete, but today no sound!! My only question....so does this mean I was NOT supposed to hear the sound last night. I don't have HD.

Just my two cents:

I had it DVR'ed in HD, just rewatched it right now. The smokie sound is very clear and it lasts about 4-5 seconds.

Odd that the sound is not heard on the online eppy.

So the monster can just take any form now and do whatever?That's what I was wondering. The Monster started out bombastic and frightening, now we see a cuddly animal and everyone assumes it's Smokey. I'll be kinda disappointed if we find out Smokey is just a cure-all plot device...

I know the Smokey sounds were there all during Eko's "visions" in "The Cost of Living," but I don't remember them during any other scene where something was attributed to Smokey. Was the rattling present for Kate's horse, for instance?

I've been surprised at the number of people who said they didn't hear it. Could this be another one of those easter eggs for HD viewers? Maybe the sound was just in the rear surrounds of the 5.1 mix not the analog channels stereo mix?

It is a bit strange how some people didn't hear the sound, but I wonder if those same people heard the clicking sound before when smokey was around, such as in the cost of living. Perhaps some people have always missed hearing that particular sound.

I will add that most of the regulars on the whispers thread (who are quite attentive to the audio in the show) heard the clickign sound and recognised it right away.

About the 5.1 mix, I clearly heard it last night on a SD broadcast with stereo audio, so that does not explain the difference.

Yeah, it is weird that not everybody heard it. I heard it right away and I don't have HD. I thought it was a really clear sound, which led me to believe that spiders were actually Smokey and that Paolo "summoned" them because he didn't want Nikki to leave him. Another mystery...

It's weird that the writers would misdirect us this much, because of the huge point Artz gave about the male spiders. But if the male spiders couldn't deliver poison, and the writers didn't goof up on that, it was entirely fabricated. The security system is most likely making Nikki hallucinate, because we did see that section as a flashback, not linear reality. Although Sayid saw the cat during linear time, he saw it first in linear time and then in his mind.

The key might be that Artz said you'll be out eight hours if struck. From when Nikki passes out and when she's finally buried, is that really eight hours? Hard to tell. Someone could look at the position of the sun....

The key might be that Artz said you'll be out eight hours if struck. From when Nikki passes out and when she's finally buried, is that really eight hours? Hard to tell. Someone could look at the position of the sun....

When they start the scene where the spiders bite pikki, the bottom of the screen says eight hours ago. So about eight hours have passed when they bury Pikki.

It's weird that the writers would misdirect us this much, because of the huge point Artz gave about the male spiders. But if the male spiders couldn't deliver poison, and the writers didn't goof up on that, it was entirely fabricated. The security system is most likely making Nikki hallucinate, because we did see that section as a flashback, not linear reality. Although Sayid saw the cat during linear time, he saw it first in linear time and then in his mind.

The key might be that Artz said you'll be out eight hours if struck. From when Nikki passes out and when she's finally buried, is that really eight hours? Hard to tell. Someone could look at the position of the sun....

do you guys think that some of these "sightings" are just coincidence?? kate's horse for example: we now know that there are horses are on the island (the flame station)...

the characters aren't necessarily really having these flashbacks, it could just be the show showing us what happened in the past to make sense of whats happening in the present.

isn't it possible that she see's a horse...then has a flashback remembering a horse.

"dont mistake coincidence for fate"

The rattling sound was clear as day last night during the eppy. The streamed version may have been inputted BEFORE the sound effect was added....But if they went to the trouble of indicating "rattling sound" in the closed captions, it was there for a reason...

To build tension as Paulo watches the male spiders crawling towards Nikki's leg...he was trying to indicate to her to look down with his eyes....but she was distracted by the noise...looking up and around...rather than down at him.

If you don't know what we're talking about...here's a compilation of ALL the monsters sounds....the rattling is usually used for when Smokey is traveling...skittering thru the jungle. This is NOT from last night's scene....it's from the eppy where it analyzed Eko. The rattling noise at the very beginning...and a lil at the end is what was heard last nite as Nikki looked around.

http://www.losthatch.com/sounds/show_sounds/S2E10_Smoke_Monster.mp3

Not to mention....the misdirection about what was gonna eventually kill her was evident throughout the eppy....with Hurley's insistance it was the monster (Dude...Monster)...coupled with Arnzt's spider exposition. Last night's eppy actually reminded me of a CSI eppy...except Nikki's death wasn't a "who done it"....but a "WHAT done it". Smokey, and later Sawyer, were just the red herrings.

do you guys think that some of these "sightings" are just coincidence?? kate's horse for example: we now know that there are horses are on the island (the flame station)...

the characters aren't necessarily really having these flashbacks, it could just be the show showing us what happened in the past to make sense of whats happening in the present.

isn't it possible that she see's a horse...then has a flashback remembering a horse.

"dont mistake coincidence for fate"

And where did she get the horse for the flashback? Why can't the security system make her hallucinate the horse? DHARMA was about psychology more than anything....

I think "Smokey" and the sounds that go with it's appearing are just a metaphor for someone confronting his/her demons and loosing the battle, resulting in death..
Eko "saw" the monster (I think that happened inside his head), couldn't handle his past mistakes and died of agonization, while Locke also saw smokey but was able to come clean with his conscience, realized what the island is capable of doing to a person (confront him/her with himself/herself) and was able to walk away..

So in the end, IMO, the spiders are not smokey or an appearance of the monster or any security system, because the black cloud is only a visualization of what is taking place inside the characters' heads..

I see both possibilities as being very reasonable.

I see it just being the spider's reaction with the smell of the one that died, and the evidence proves it- Artz said that would happen, and he didn't say it for a reason. If they wanted it to be the monster at the end, they should have left that scene out.

However, I see it being the smoke monster because of the noise that we heard, obviously indicating the smoke monster, the fact they appeared so quickly and the fact that she got what she deserved-she met her fate the same way that Eko did. If it was the smoke monster though, they shouldn't have added the line about the spider's smell and I think it would be too confusing for casual viewers.

Did anyone notice that when we hear the "rattling" noise, if you watch Paulo's eyes he appears to track something across the sky. When I saw it, I heard the noise and saw him follow something across the sky with his eyes and I thought SMOKE MONSTER!

Hi all!! First post...:)

I personally did not hear the monster before Nikki was bitten by the spiders. In fact, I was wondering why she was looking around all scared in the first place.


Did anyone notice that when we hear the "rattling" noise, if you watch Paulo's eyes he appears to track something across the sky.It definitely looked like Paulo saw something before his paralysis completely took him over. I'd also like to mention during the "recap" of Nikki and Paolo's first few days on the island, did anyone notice Paolo's crazed distracted stare out into the ocean after the plane first crashed? Does anyone think Paolo might have seen something really crazy out there? It could've been just him going into shock, but I couldn't help but think that he saw something out there.

Yep, I definitely heard the usual Smokey sound, similar to crickets on a summer night. Nikki heard it too and was looking around for the source of the sound. I have to agree with Rabidranger...it was her punishment for making an immoral decision. Like Eko, she didn't learn the lesson she was meant to on Redemption Isle. The spiders came for the female as explained, but Smokey was the reason Nikki got bit. Maybe it was the way Smokey distracted her, causing her to hesitate and be in the path of the poison spiders.
I agree and think that Charlie is now safe as he showed real courage in confessing and saying sorry to Sun. He may well have appeased the Island/monster/smokey!

I definitely heard the rattling and was like "There's the security system". It was definitely intentional IMO. Artz did say releasing the female spider would get all the male spiders to come, but I don't think it would be in a matter of seconds....


But these aren't regular spiders, they're island spiders. They are extra fast due to all those experiments.

Why can't the security system make her hallucinate the horse? Sawyer also saw the horse, so it would have to have been a group hallucination.

It strikes me as strange if Smokey is behind Jack's Dad and Yemi that it would choose a horse for Kate. A horse?? Why not the guy with the plane toy? Or her father?

Ill throw myself behind the Judgement theory.

Eko said you are next, amongst those present was Nikki and Paolo.

Nikki threw the spider at Paolo he gets bit, and the pheromones starts attracting male spiders that bite Nikki.

At this point the monster has arrived and will now judge Nikki's actions.
And what does she do?
She wastes her chance at life by spending time burying the diamonds.
Those extra seconds would have made the difference for her, but her greed made her paranoid,
and she decided THAT was more important that her life, a big nono in Smokey's book.

So he kept them paralyzed until they where buried.


-Exodus

And where did she get the horse for the flashback? Why can't the security system make her hallucinate the horse? DHARMA was about psychology more than anything....

The horse was from her flashback in the epi WKD during S2. Not sure if that was a hallucination, since she did approach the horse and was able to pet it b4 it galloped away. And I don't remember if Mr. Eko was able to touch his brother Yemi. In WR, Jack almost touched his fathers' shoulder b/4 Christian turned to face him in the jungle and eventually lead him to the cave where his coffin had landed w/o the body. If he was able to touch his fathers' shoulders, then I stand corrected. Anything on the island is possible, according to John Locke.

So, does that mean that the island is a sentient entity that can manifest thoughts into reality? Reality is relative in re:to the island. This is Lost we're speaking of.

I think "Smokey" and the sounds that go with it's appearing are just a metaphor for someone confronting his/her demons and loosing the battle, resulting in death..
Eko "saw" the monster (I think that happened inside his head), couldn't handle his past mistakes and died of agonization, while Locke also saw smokey but was able to come clean with his conscience, realized what the island is capable of doing to a person (confront him/her with himself/herself) and was able to walk away..

So in the end, IMO, the spiders are not smokey or an appearance of the monster or any security system, because the black cloud is only a visualization of what is taking place inside the characters' heads..

Sorry, Tjen...I disagree...Eko "saw" the monster for real...Last season in The 23rd Psalm...because Charlie was up in a nearby tree watching it, too...along with him...(The audio from that scene is enclosed in my post about 7 or so back....Charlie actually urges Eko to run from it).

You would be implying that both Charlie & Eko had the identical "visualizations" inside their heads during that scene? I think not. They both saw the same thing we did. The smoke monster does exist....it uproots huge trees from the ground...It's definetly THERE. But what it chooses to "do" with those who encounter it, is still a mystery. (Why it merely tried to drag Locke into a hole...why the first time Eko faced off with it...it merely analyzed him, and quickly left him alone....and later...it tossed Eko around like a rag doll and killed him).

Did anyone notice that when we hear the "rattling" noise, if you watch Paulo's eyes he appears to track something across the sky.

Paulo wasn't tracking anything across the sky....he was rendered unable to speak by the paralyzing poison...and was trying to use his eyes to alert Nikki of the male spiders crawling towards her...Looking up at her eyes....and then down to her feet. Unfortunately, the smoke monster's "rattling" noise was distracting Nikki at that point...and she never saw Paulo's pleading eyes trying to warn her. Watch the scene again, Sonar...you'll immediately see what I'm talking about....the monster was "nearby"....but was not "shown" anywhere in that particular scene.

Maybe Smokey was there to distract Nikki.

I think the spiders may be from Smokie because no one else was bitten - an isolated incident. They didn't bite anyone else. When Sawyer etc found Paulo all of the spiders were gone?! What's up with that? I don't know why Smokie would be around there just because of the spiders though. Dr. A did explain what would happen. It's all too crazy for me.

The Male spiders came because of the pharamones from the female spider. They wearn't there to chill, the male spiders were all there to find the female.

What I don't understand is why one of them went after Nikki when they were after the female spider.

It's kinda funny, Dr.Artz compared Nikki to the Medusa spider because they both attracted the males.

Since we really have inadequate information on smokey I'm trying to look at the scene more from a narrative angle and smokey's sound comes across to me as being something akin to a greek chorus, it's a kind of commentary on what is happening in the scene. The smoke monster rattles and it's like it's saying, "Doom in now upon you Pikki!"

The pheremones explain well enough why the spiders show up, otherwise the writers wouldn't have bothered putting those lines in for the episode.

I didn't participate, but some from research, I was curious if anyone had further information on:

Wasn't there a "SPIDER PROTOCOL" from Dharma in the Lost Experience?

It bothers me no one has said this:
Because the monster doesn't manifest/become things, he controls animals and dead bodies already on the island. Why do you think Vincent led Jack out of the woods in the Pilot, led Charlie to Sawyer's stash and the rest of the heroin, etc?

It's possible the monster was controlling some of the spiders. Maybe that's why a spider bit Nikki when the pheremones were on Paulo.

Actually i think you're really onto something here. I've been thinking a similar thing about the spiders (that smokey was controlling them--not manifesting them). my reasoning was the whispers that have been decoded out of the polar bear's growls (go to the whispers thread under general theories if you haven't seen it before--make sure you read the first four posts or so). In the polar bear's growls they found audio of people talking and controlling the bear in order to capture walt in the episode "special." so it really does seem as though some force is able to control some of the animals on the island. (polar bears, spiders, boars, dogs, and horses to name a few... maybe moths too? and they even found audio in the tree frog, although the transcript isn't posted yet but who knows! :cool: )

IMHO this theory doesn't really extend to controlling dead bodies... after all, we've seen yemi's dead mummified body and it looks nothing like the vision of yemi that both locke and ecko saw...

It just occurred to me that the rattling has always been the spiders and not Smokey. Here's what I think. The spiders are all around the island, have always been there (Arzt was able to capture one), and the spiders run away when Smokey is close.

So, every time we've heard the rattling before Smokey makes its appearance, it's not Smokey rattling, but the spiders getting out of its way. In this particular episode, we heard the rattling of the spiders rushing toward the female, not away from Smokey.

Does that make sense?

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Sorry, Tjen...I disagree...Eko "saw" the monster for real...Last season in The 23rd Psalm...because Charlie was up in a nearby tree watching it, too...along with him...(The audio from that scene is enclosed in my post about 7 or so back....Charlie actually urges Eko to run from it).

You would be implying that both Charlie & Eko had the identical "visualizations" inside their heads during that scene? I think not. They both saw the same thing we did. The smoke monster does exist....it uproots huge trees from the ground...It's definetly THERE. But what it chooses to "do" with those who encounter it, is still a mystery. (Why it merely tried to drag Locke into a hole...why the first time Eko faced off with it...it merely analyzed him, and quickly left him alone....and later...it tossed Eko around like a rag doll and killed him).



Paulo wasn't tracking anything across the sky....he was rendered unable to speak by the paralyzing poison...and was trying to use his eyes to alert Nikki of the male spiders crawling towards her...Looking up at her eyes....and then down to her feet. Unfortunately, the smoke monster's "rattling" noise was distracting Nikki at that point...and she never saw Paulo's pleading eyes trying to warn her. Watch the scene again, Sonar...you'll immediately see what I'm talking about....the monster was "nearby"....but was not "shown" anywhere in that particular scene.

It's OK to disagree, Ator. That's what forums are for IMO. But the thing is that I don't believe in monsters nor in cloud control. Spreading mist, I can see what thàt is, and I think that's what the storytellers are doing.. So I was merly blowing the fog horn :cool:

cu,
Tjen

Here's my reply to a post in the Whispers#2 thread, thought it was relevant here though.

Ok, here's a question posed by hubby about the spider - how did they keep the spider alive in a jar for however many days with Arzt gone?? Was Nikki feeding it or... I guess this supports smokey in some way maybe. As for all the other spiders - totally noticed the monster noises but Arzt said that one whiff of the female spider and all males come running so I was expecting them.

I'm guessing the medusa spider is made up for the show...does anyone know if there is a spider like this??

I'm not sure but is it possible that she just took a jam jar, went into the jungle and caught the the type of spider that Artzt had told her about, she did still remember it's name and what it did!. Also perhaps she went out looking for the spider, found one, bottled it and then starting looking around for a place to ambush her other half. Why not do it in the same place as where she caught the spider. This would expain the speed en which the male spiders responded to the pheremone!

Here's my reply to a post in the Whispers#2 thread, thought it was relevant here though.



I'm not sure but is it possible that she just took a jam jar, went into the jungle and caught the the type of spider that Artzt had told her about, she did still remember it's name and what it did!. Also perhaps she went out looking for the spider, found one, bottled it and then starting looking around for a place to ambush her other half. Why not do it in the same place as where she caught the spider. This would expain the speed en which the male spiders responded to the pheremone!

Actually, you saw Hurley and Charlie at Paulo and Nikki's house/tent and they discussed the fact that they had a bunch of creatures from Arntz's collection. I would think that as long as you feed them and have an adequate air supply that it would be easy to maintain a few pets in this manner.

I think "Smokey" and the sounds that go with it's appearing are just a metaphor for someone confronting his/her demons and loosing the battle, resulting in death..
Eko "saw" the monster (I think that happened inside his head), couldn't handle his past mistakes and died of agonization, while Locke also saw smokey but was able to come clean with his conscience, realized what the island is capable of doing to a person (confront him/her with himself/herself) and was able to walk away..

So in the end, IMO, the spiders are not smokey or an appearance of the monster or any security system, because the black cloud is only a visualization of what is taking place inside the characters' heads..

*mod edit* How is someone's "inner demons" going to bludgen them to death against a tree? That is one hell of an visualization taking place inside someone's head!

That is the dumbest thing I have read. <snip>

I have nothing to compare with, because you never told me what other - if any - stuff you have been reading. So I can't confirm and I can't deny your statement. :cool:

cu,
Tjen

It's weird that the writers would misdirect us this much, because of the huge point Artz gave about the male spiders.

Fan of Science=Arzt's Explanation

Fan of Faith="chka-chka-chka-chka"

Which are you?

If you think Smokey was the spiders...

Consider the lack of "monster sounds" when, for example:

Eko sees Yemi before his death, Sayid sees the cat, Kate sees the horse...

Basically, I'm not so sure Smokey can shape-shift (well, beyond a black cloud of varying density).

As odd as it sounds, I think a simpler explanation is that Smokey is made of iron (II) oxide, a black magnetic dust.

Those other apparently solid "manifestations" might be the island doing a magic box thing.

That is the dumbest thing I have read. I actually registered on this board just to reply to this psyco-babble bullcrap. How is someone's "inner demons" going to bludgen them to death against a tree? That is one hell of an visualization taking place inside someone's head!

It is apparent what you HAVE NOT read...and that would be the site rules. Rudeness toward other posters is not allowed here.


Courtesy to Other Posters
All members of this site will respect the opinions and presence of other members of the site. Challenge others' points of view and opinions, but do so respectfully and thoughtfully... without insult and personal attack. Name-calling, disrespecting other users or throwing personal insults against them will not be tolerated, either from an instigator OR from anyone who feels like they should respond to such instigation. Flaming another user because of their spelling or word choice will also not be tolerated. Personal attacks of ANY kind are not allowed and users who violate this will be banned. If you have an issue with another user, contact a moderator or administrator.

I suggest you reconsider your tone and take some time and read those rules so you get a better handle on how things work here.

It is apparent what you HAVE NOT read...and that would be the site rules. Rudeness toward other posters is not allowed here.


I suggest you reconsider your tone and take some time and read those rules so you get a better handle on how things work here.

Tjen, please correct me if I'm mistaken, but it doesn't seem you took my post as a personal attack. (Incedentally, it was not. I was sharing my opinion of the idea, not of Tjen himself). I'll return to the cheap-seats with the rest of the lurkers to avoid future disciplinary actions/draconian censorship. :lipsseal:

Check out youtube video TaqbyekJHHs, or search for "smokeylives" on there. I've made a compilation of smokey's appearances including possibly in Exopsé, so you can listen and decide for yourselves.

(Long time no see)

I heard no Smokey..even in the clip someone posted here. I did hear rustling and what I took to be spider noises.

I heard no Smokey..even in the clip someone posted here. I did hear rustling and what I took to be spider noises.

I have to agree that on a second viewing of the episode, that the sound was probably just meant to be the noise of thousands of male spiders moving through the ground clutter. I think it's a big reach to try to connect the foreshadowed appearance of these spiders with the smoke monster.

Quick question - if all the male spiders were attracted to the female where were they when they found Paulo?
I can't imagine they would disappear that fast and why haven't we seen these spiders before - other than the one Artz found -

I think smokey was bringing the spiders since Nikki knew from Artz that the female attracts the males - thus her fate on the island

i second thAt the spiders were supposed to be smokie enforced justice!

If Smokey was the spiders then Nikki would have died right then and there but since it was spiders thats why she didnt die until the she got burried alive

If Smokey was the spiders then Nikki would have died right then and there but since it was spiders thats why she didnt die until the she got burried alive
Come on theres no such rule as ''die here and now'' when it comes to smokie!:cool:

Tjen, please correct me if I'm mistaken, but it doesn't seem you took my post as a personal attack. (Incedentally, it was not. I was sharing my opinion of the idea, not of Tjen himself). I'll return to the cheap-seats with the rest of the lurkers to avoid future disciplinary actions/draconian censorship. :lipsseal:
generally when someone replies like this, they really dont have a grasp how this board works. the rules are quite simple. it also goes along with the concept that the written word can be difficult to sense tone and intent, therefore posters should read over their posts a few different ways in order to avoid misunderstandings. i think that the kicker in your original post was the part about "psychobabble bullcrap"...which seems to be directed at either the OP or other posters here. so yeah, instead of learning how to avoid such problems you run off? umkay. blaming others for not understanding your post is just...:eek2:

When I first heard the noise, I thought crickets, or some sort of tree frog...then I heard the noise from the audioclip from each time Smokie had visited, and I thought 'definately Smokie....but it still sounds like something that lives in a swamp or the forest...' I'm leaning towards the theory that creatures are running away/getting excited and making the sound whenever Smokie shows up (i.e. common jungle noises just notched up), or it's a recycled sound with unintentioned concequences.:undecide:

Come on theres no such rule as ''die here and now'' when it comes to smokie!:cool:


Red she didnt die until after the DIRT was on her so unless the dirt was Smokey then they died because of her stupidity

The buzzing/rattling sound has been present almost every time that we have known Smokey to be lurking nearby, or floating through the brush when observing people. I don't think the sound itself had anything to do with the spiders, I think what we were meant to gather was that "Hey, Smokey is lurking nearby (due to his distinct noise), and he/she/it manifested or summoned the spiders" I have always thought of Smokey's buzzing/rattling staccato noise to sound like grasshoppers or cicadas in the summertime, but that's just me I guess :)

Definately heard the sound of smokey.
What does it mean, why didnt he appear etc etc!!!
:)

Listened to the DVD commentary track for Expose and the writers do indeed confirm it was the monster sound heard before Nikki was about to get bit by the spiders. They didn't give it any further context however just that the sound we hear is the monster. (They even brought up how you should get Carlton Cuse to make the monster sound himself the next time you see him.) Whether this means the spiders are the monster, the spiders were summoned by the monster, the monster hung around to watch justice doled out by the spiders it had nothing to do with otherwise, etc., etc, appears to be still up for debate.