Look, I love the internal references for the fans, the stuff that only we would notice. Cool.

But the "Wolfgang Puck of Brazil" line to mock that Rodrigo Santoro was billed as the "Tom Cruise of Brazil" when he was cast on the show. The line about guest stars dying? The constant lines of Sawyer not knowing who Nikki is? Not to mention him calling them "Nina and Pablo" which was totally a shout-out to all of us calling them made-up names, and then finally settling on "Pikki." I think people on the Fuse actually *were* calling him "Pablo"!

Anyway, it's just enough is enough. We know that they know that we hated the characters. Now let's move on.

Am I the only one who feels this way???

Maybe we're becoming The Powers That Be!

I haven't seen the episode yet, but I hear Sawyer says "Who is Nikki?" or "Who the hell are you?" several times. Once was funny back in Par Avion (I think), but this is getting old.

Is Sawyer really that stupid that he never knows who Nikki is? He's been living on this island with her for 2.5 months.

It turned out that Nikki had talked to him earlier in the day, so it was probably part of his cover up.

I thought the whole "what did Eko mean when he said 'you're next'" was a shout out to us as well, since that was an area of debate for some time.

I think people on the Fuse actually *were* calling him "Pablo"!


Why is everyone looking at me? :hypocrit:

I *was* thinking of you elfdream!

I was basically just feeling like "Enough, Darlton. We know that you know. Now STOP."

No, because as Nikki stormed off, James called out, "WHO ARE YOU?"

I believe that James honestly didn't know who Paulo and Nikki were. THIS is the game-changer. THIS is the iconic thing. THIS is the point of the eppy! Something really weird is going on here. James is the kind who'd make sure he knew every darn person on that beach--because you can't play who you don't know, and you can BE played by someone you don't know!

So why didn't James know Pikki?

I hear you but I like it. I think its a way TPTB can acknowledge how were feeling and make the show work for people who watch after us. I think its clever.

I love the shoutouts - makes me want to come more - they are really listening to the fans - how many shows can actually say that -
how many fans can actually influence a show - I think it is cool that they want to keep us that happy!

If we have influence over what goes on in the show, let's start discussing a desire for Locke to have laser eyes. Maybe we'll be able to kick this show up a notch.

Sorry, I have to disagree. I love it when they do that! It gives us something to laugh at that's an inside joke.

I like SOME inside jokes. But the hitting us over the head with them is what kills me. I mean, I literally *listed* several ones just from this one episode. It's like, hello, enough is enough.

Guess it's just me. *shrug*

It's clever in small doses, but I agree that this was a little too much.

No, because as Nikki stormed off, James called out, "WHO ARE YOU?"

I believe that James honestly didn't know who Paulo and Nikki were. THIS is the game-changer. THIS is the iconic thing. THIS is the point of the eppy! Something really weird is going on here. James is the kind who'd make sure he knew every darn person on that beach--because you can't play who you don't know, and you can BE played by someone you don't know!

So why didn't James know Pikki?

You have a good point - we are so busy pumping up our ego's they are listening to us!! that we may have missed that Sawyer REALLY doesn't know who she is - which leads to the WHY and what happened to him -
HUMM --

It turned out that Nikki had talked to him earlier in the day, so it was probably part of his cover up.

Oh, that makes sense. That was kinda annoying me that Sawyer kept saying that, but it would make more sense if he was just covering his tracks perhaps.

But besides that line from Sawyer, I didn't really mind the other shout-outs. For me, it just added to the fun that was this episode :smile: I liked Nikki's line about guest stars dying (and was happy that it came true again tonight! ;))

I personally loved all the in-jokes and shout outs (especially the one about Eko's "You're next").

No, because as Nikki stormed off, James called out, "WHO ARE YOU?"

I believe that James honestly didn't know who Paulo and Nikki were. THIS is the game-changer. THIS is the iconic thing. THIS is the point of the eppy! Something really weird is going on here. James is the kind who'd make sure he knew every darn person on that beach--because you can't play who you don't know, and you can BE played by someone you don't know!

So why didn't James know Pikki?

Sawyer has been gone a lot. First, after the raft incident and then again with Jack and Kate. They've only been on the Island a couple months and in the beginning he was pretty alienated from everybody so maybe he just hasn't really run into them...just a thought!

Another big "shout out", at least to the podcast listeners is that this is probably as close as we'll get to a zombie episode.

I haven't seen the episode yet, but I hear Sawyer says "Who is Nikki?" or "Who the hell are you?" several times. Once was funny back in Par Avion (I think), but this is getting old.

Is Sawyer really that stupid that he never knows who Nikki is? He's been living on this island with her for 2.5 months.

It didn't go on long enough to become tiresome and unfunny like the Scott-and-Steve joke, though. By the last time, they were kinda hitting us over the heads with the "Who are you?" gag--but in a funny way.

I like SOME inside jokes. But the hitting us over the head with them is what kills me. I mean, I literally *listed* several ones just from this one episode. It's like, hello, enough is enough.

Guess it's just me. *shrug*

No, no you're not. I've got your back, sister! :biggrin:

I'm not going to get all worked up about it, but they take me out of the show and they're uninspired and over the top. Hurley's comment about making salad comes to mind.

I like SOME inside jokes. But the hitting us over the head with them is what kills me. I mean, I literally *listed* several ones just from this one episode. It's like, hello, enough is enough.

Guess it's just me. *shrug*


I think that I agree with you here, Laura. On one hand, the inside jokes are kind of nice because it really makes it seem like Lost actually is "our" show. But when there are too many in one episode, it gets a little bit too cheesy for my taste.

No, because as Nikki stormed off, James called out, "WHO ARE YOU?"

I believe that James honestly didn't know who Paulo and Nikki were. THIS is the game-changer. THIS is the iconic thing. THIS is the point of the eppy! Something really weird is going on here. James is the kind who'd make sure he knew every darn person on that beach--because you can't play who you don't know, and you can BE played by someone you don't know!

So why didn't James know Pikki?

Well, I like the shout outs! Remember in the Second Season - the Hurley episode with the Numbers everywhere?? I mean they were TOTALLY over done - the team with the "4, 8, 15, 16, 23, 42" on their Jerseys??? That was KEWL!!! It' sFUN!

Now, to STH's interesting thought above - why DOESN'T he know who they were?? More of the "time wiggins" stuff?? Sawyer would have known them - I'm thinking especially Nicki! (In fact, I went to a bad place and thought maybe he Knew her in the, welll - "knew" her sense!)I think there's more to Sawyer not remembering the two of them.

Sorry but I liked it too. :) Over the top, yeah.. but still fun to know that I had a little part in it.

Look, I love the internal references for the fans, the stuff that only we would notice. Cool.

But the "Wolfgang Puck of Brazil" line to mock that Rodrigo Santoro was billed as the "Tom Cruise of Brazil" when he was cast on the show. The line about guest stars dying? The constant lines of Sawyer not knowing who Nikki is? Not to mention him calling them "Nina and Pablo" which was totally a shout-out to all of us calling them made-up names, and then finally settling on "Pikki." I think people on the Fuse actually *were* calling him "Pablo"!

Anyway, it's just enough is enough. We know that they know that we hated the characters. Now let's move on.

Am I the only one who feels this way???

I don't know if you are the only one, but I certainly don't agree with you at all.

Over the top or not, I totally get a kick out of it. :biggrin:

What you're really saying is that you don't think it's funny. That's fine. But to say that they're shouting out to you is moronic. These lines aren't written as "shout-outs to the fans." They're lines written to draw some laughs. I find it funny that you want to feel special and take credit for their writing but then get annoyed with it. This episode could have been done way before they even showed us Nikki and Paulo or before anyone ever started talking about them. And if not, assuming that you directly influence the show's writing is still beyond me. But the worst of it is that you want to be annoyed with it. Personally, I like it a lot. I think it's funny, and not because "we" joke about it and make it appear on the screen, but just because it's funny.

I didn't mind it so much. If they keep doing it so far, it will be overkill.

I don't agree, either. I think it's great fun to have shout-outs and Easter eggs. ;)

I get a kick out of the inside jokes, with us, the viewers--and forum readers/posters--being part of the insiders. Lost has used the internet in a variety of creative ways--the Lost experience, episodes being available for viewing, and a connection with their internet savvy/addicted audience. This is part of that connection.

If the jokes were consistently lame or omnipresent, I'd probably agree with the original poster. But we don't see these lines in every episode, and when we do, they're usually pretty clever. I must admit that I don't like seeing episodes where we get a million Sawyer nicknames thrown our way, only because there are usually more misses than hits. For me, the majority of the inside jokes are in the "hit" category.

I agree with some of that.

Lost was a success before they had fan feedback. If there is one piece of feedback they should listen to its---dont listen to the forum people

if they start bending their story based on what people say they dont like on forums--then they are not using the talent that made the show a success in the first place

Especially the abc forum. They are just such a bunch a mindless creatures. From what I see on all lost forums--more than 50% of people cant even comprehend the themes and are completely wrong on so many obvious things, if you start listening to them you'll surely ruin the show

I would bet a million bucks that the comical way they portayed Nikki and Paulo's death was a direct result of forum opinion and it probably ruined the original idea they had because they caved in to the complainers

If you listen to the podcasts you can clearly tell the comments affect their writing. You would think they would be smart enough to understand that people who post on forums are a unique segment of the larger viewing audience..that many people describe as the "squeeky wheel". So negative opinions on forums could be as high as 60% when the overall audience might be only 30%

In know, you were told there would be No math...haha

I would bet a million bucks that the comical way they portayed Nikki and Paulo's death was a direct result of forum opinion and it probably ruined the original idea they had because they caved in to the complainers

I'll take that bet.

Look, I love the internal references for the fans, the stuff that only we would notice. Cool.

But the "Wolfgang Puck of Brazil" line to mock that Rodrigo Santoro was billed as the "Tom Cruise of Brazil" when he was cast on the show. The line about guest stars dying? The constant lines of Sawyer not knowing who Nikki is? Not to mention him calling them "Nina and Pablo" which was totally a shout-out to all of us calling them made-up names, and then finally settling on "Pikki." I think people on the Fuse actually *were* calling him "Pablo"!

Anyway, it's just enough is enough. We know that they know that we hated the characters. Now let's move on.

Am I the only one who feels this way???

I'm a "newer" avid fan, and I didn't know anything of the "Tom Cruise of Brazil" line. I didn't think twice about that quote in the episode at all.

Sawyer not knowing Nikki was a cover-up as we found out, so no need to give them crap about that. Calling them "Nina and Pablo" was a shout-out to his CHARACTER more than to the fans. He always did that shit with names, so what makes these two strangers any different??

IMO, I don't see anything substantial with your gripes with these points particularly, but to each their own. I'm sure many wouldn't see any problem with it, but the scene where Nikki tells Paulo not to smoke because the ashes were evidence, then she goes right ahead putting her hand and fingerprints all over the safe before opening it... Hmm... Evidence? Anyhow, I thought the whole episode was a nod to the fans because you get the nostalgic feeling of the crash again. I had a smile throughout the episode, thinking "aww, what a great, fun show."

Actually I didn't mind the inside jokes at all, I like the wolfgang puck line and the guest star line worked within the flow of the FB, the only one that made me squirm was sawyers' :"who are you" line. Otherwise I'm okay with the idea that TPTB care enough to give us little winks.

I've listened to the podcasts and yes we do have some input. Carlton and Damon agree that they have been influenced by some of the comments the viewers have made. The actors who played Nikki and Paulo were casts long before they got a bum rap by the viewers. However to tie up some loose ends they were used in tonights EP to show the Ben tie in as well as some other eggs I am still digesting.

I listened and read were the producers liked the "Actor" playing Ben so much that they created a story to use the Ben character even more than they had planned. I just finished reading and interview with Mr Bender who directs most of the EP's, he stated that the show evolves along a central theme then events are added as needed. This creates the layer effect of sub-plots.

The numbers didn't really mean anything, "we" gave them life. Now the numbers are used when its time to throw a curve ball, just like when you think you've figured something out and then whamo it goes a different direction.

We are being watched and we are being used (in a humorous way). I like that we are part of the series. Remember who created this forum anyway Hello J.J. Abrams ring a bell !!!!

Awww, I love the shout outs,and I don't believe TPTB are caving to us. If so they wouldn't have killed off some of our favorite characters, they would give us more answers and Vincent WOULD have a flashback scene.

The shout outs do not change the story lines. They do not detract from the stories they are telling, but can hint at a deeper meaning, and reflect an intimacy of sorts with those of us who are obsessed. :biggrin:

I loved the inside jokes and shoutouts. They only bother me when I wonder if I can totally discount them as such, or should they be analyzed more deeply? ;)

One really creative thing was Sawyer repeatedly asking who Nikki was...was that a character's coverup covered up by a fan shoutout, or a fan shoutout disguised within a character's coverup? Why is it always a chicken/egg thing with LOST?

Gosh, I love LOST!!! Seriously, TPTB are genii...

:malelove:

ETA Was it a foreshadowing of more Nikki/Paulo/Sawyer encounters that we haven't seen yet? See what I mean?

No, because as Nikki stormed off, James called out, "WHO ARE YOU?"

I believe that James honestly didn't know who Paulo and Nikki were. THIS is the game-changer. THIS is the iconic thing. THIS is the point of the eppy! Something really weird is going on here. James is the kind who'd make sure he knew every darn person on that beach--because you can't play who you don't know, and you can BE played by someone you don't know!

So why didn't James know Pikki?

Wait.. didn't we find out in the episode that Sawyer did know Nikki, but was pretending that he didn't so he could find out what she had buried in the sand?

Wait.. didn't we find out in the episode that Sawyer did know Nikki, but was pretending that he didn't so he could find out what she had buried in the sand?

No. He saw her dirty fingernails and the fresh patch of dirt, and only then became interested. He really didn't know her.

And now people have issues with writers giving shout outs to fans? This is whining for the sake of whining.:rolleyes:

I kinda thought that hiding the diamonds in the toilet was also a shout out--its been noted a few places how Paolo seems to spend a lot of time... er... in the bathroom and now they made it for a reason...

Although I wasn't a big fan of Pikki, it was a little harsh to bury them alive!! I don't think us fusies need to take responsibility for that! :eek:

I personally have to agree with a previous poster in this thread that there is some problem with time. At the same time, it was a shout-out. Because of the repetition there had to be a reason why Sawyer couldn't recognize Nikki, and that's because of Lost time.

I dig the shout-outs. As far as TPTB caving in to fans, they sure did keep Ana Lucia around for a long time after I...umm, I mean fans wanted her dead.

Well, I don't mind them really...but who's to say that Sawyer saying "who is Nikki?" is a shout out to fans? For all we know it could have a much deeper meaning.

No, because as Nikki stormed off, James called out, "WHO ARE YOU?"

I believe that James honestly didn't know who Paulo and Nikki were. THIS is the game-changer. THIS is the iconic thing. THIS is the point of the eppy! Something really weird is going on here. James is the kind who'd make sure he knew every darn person on that beach--because you can't play who you don't know, and you can BE played by someone you don't know!

So why didn't James know Pikki?

I've been saying this since the first time Sawyer asked who Nikki was! If they're going to be true to the characters, it would be in Sawyer's character to know who everyone is but especially one of the hottest girls on the island. Until FBYE, I didn't seriously considered altered timelines but that may be it. Otherwise, Des would have realized from Sawyer asking once again who she is that Sawyer was arguing with someone he didn't even know! He heard it, for heaven's sake!

I wasn't getting tired of the "shout outs" to the fans. I kind of like them.

Am I the only one who feels this way???

Yes. I love that about this show. It's the ONLY show where the viewers significantly influence the writing. It's awesome.

No, because as Nikki stormed off, James called out, "WHO ARE YOU?"

I believe that James honestly didn't know who Paulo and Nikki were. THIS is the game-changer. THIS is the iconic thing. THIS is the point of the eppy! Something really weird is going on here. James is the kind who'd make sure he knew every darn person on that beach--because you can't play who you don't know, and you can BE played by someone you don't know!

So why didn't James know Pikki?

When Saywer first "who are you" to Nikki (ep. 11 I think, when he was playing ping-pong for his stash) I laughed my head off about it, thinking it was just a side-hint at the fact that her character had been introduced in Sawyer's absence. A little laugh on the side for those who watch and pay attention.
Seeing that he seemingly kept on not remembering her in the last episode, I was close to agreeing with you there - that his not being able to remember Nikki had a deeper meaning. After all, he was on the other side of the island when Desmond blew up the hatch and screwed up TPTB-only-know-what along with it. And Pikki only appeared after that. I thought it possible especially since Kate and Jack, the other ones who were not on the beach when Desmond possibly screwed up the time-line, so far haven't interacted with either Paolo or Nikki and so we don't see whether Jack and Kate remember them or not.
But then I thought - Hurley was on the other side of the island, as well. Yet he seems to remember Paolo and Nikki just fine, so I really don't think there's anything to the whole Sawyer-doesn't-remember Nikki thing. By now I think it's really just a gag, a gag entirely in accordance with Sawyer's character, one they maybe overdid a little in this episode.

As for the shout-outs to the fans - *sighs*. I haven't been here for very long, and I enjoy being here immensely. The people on this board have a great insight into the show, many interesting theories and thoughts are spun, and I have huge fun browsing around here. But I really think that seeing nearly everything that happens on the show and has been discussed on the board before as a sign or a shout-out to the fans is overdoing it a little.
Someone said in this thread that TPTB said they were "shouting out" occasionally, and that the whole number mystery developed from the fans interpreting a meaning into them. Be that as it may, I just think that it gets a little too overinterpreted here.
Granted, the creative minds behind the show probably browse around here, see what the fans think and what theories they spin, see what easter-eggs the fans figured out and a lot of other things. I do think that's pretty cool and different from most other shows on TV. But they do have a show to produce, and I'm fairly sure that they have most of a season planned out well before ANY info trickles through for the people here on the board to discuss.
So I really think saying that anything that happened to Paolo and Nikki was a result from what people here on the board think about them is greatly overinterpreting things. I really don't think there are as many shouts to the fans as people here think, it's all in the perception. But that's just my two cents on that matter, without intent to offend anybody.

I thought Sawyer yelling at Nikki "who the hell are you" was AWESOmE. Had me laughing everytime. It was really nice, I think. Fitting.

And you who complain... you brought it on yourself! You shouldn't have complained so much about who they are and where they came from! :p

I do think the episode was kind of one big inside joke...but that was okay with me! LOL

I mean even rewriting history by having Nikki and Paulo present at all these huge iconic Lost moments was something that only seemed interesting if you've beent there since the beginning. Without all of this back history...it wouldn't have been as cool...

The whole episode relied on us knowing everything there is to know about the Lost Universe so we would would understand everything else that had been going on at the time the flashbacks were supposed to be taking place. It was like a nice walk down memory lane. The only time I thought it was over the top was when they were arguing about whether the plane would fall down if someone went up the hill to investigate...because of course we know it did and ended up killing Boone.

It was all one big "Lost...this is your life!" with all the characters from the past showing up making cameos...and all of it being funny and amusing because we already know their fates...The one hit wonder Dr. Arzt actually being around...Ethan 'the other' still pretending he was on the plane...The departed Shannon and Boone as they once were. I was have expecting Ana Lucia to show up and punch Paulo or Nikki for no reason ;)...LOL

As for the "who are you?" stuff with Sawyer...I saw no harm in it. I think it WAS intended merely to be funny because he was like the voice of the audience. For months we've all been 'where did these two come from...who the hell are they?" and he's like the character who never notices them there either...it's cute. And I don't think it's entirely unrealistic either. Because Nikki and Paulo clearly tried to stay out of the main action. They saw all this stuff that went on...and they didn't care to get involved in mystery solving...or go actively searching for anything on the island except their diamonds. It's kind of like how Arzt suggested there were the guys in the centre of the action and everyone else. Nikki and Paulo were part of that peripher. Sawyer is kind of self involved...and I'm sure he recognizes them as people...but never bothered to learn anything about them...including their names ;)

No, no you're not. I've got your back, sister! :biggrin:

I'm not going to get all worked up about it, but they take me out of the show and they're uninspired and over the top. Hurley's comment about making salad comes to mind.

Thank you!! Totally uninsprired and over the top.

I think that I agree with you here, Laura. On one hand, the inside jokes are kind of nice because it really makes it seem like Lost actually is "our" show. But when there are too many in one episode, it gets a little bit too cheesy for my taste.

Yes, as I said several times: I like some inside jokes, but the relentless ones about Pikkie were nauseating.

Well, I like the shout outs! Remember in the Second Season - the Hurley episode with the Numbers everywhere?? I mean they were TOTALLY over done - the team with the "4, 8, 15, 16, 23, 42" on their Jerseys??? That was KEWL!!! It' sFUN!

Using the Numbers in the show is not a shout-out to the fans, it's part of the mythology.

What you're really saying is that you don't think it's funny. That's fine. But to say that they're shouting out to you is moronic. These lines aren't written as "shout-outs to the fans." They're lines written to draw some laughs. I find it funny that you want to feel special and take credit for their writing but then get annoyed with it. This episode could have been done way before they even showed us Nikki and Paulo or before anyone ever started talking about them. And if not, assuming that you directly influence the show's writing is still beyond me. But the worst of it is that you want to be annoyed with it. Personally, I like it a lot. I think it's funny, and not because "we" joke about it and make it appear on the screen, but just because it's funny.

Did you seriously just call me moronic? Man, you are rude and apparently didn't read my posts very clearly or hang around this board very much. Btw, I'm RPing you for being baiting.
But I'll address your comments anyway. I know exactly what time period they wrote the script for this episode, thankyouverymuch, and I know that it was after Pikki had been introduced in the miniseason and the majority of the fans were lambasting them on the forums. The writers had more than enough to take their general ideas for this episode plot and change them as necessary to fit the mood of the fans (post-miniseason). I listen to the podcasts and read all the interviews and know that Darlton have said that they made a mistake with Pikki and wish they could have done it differently. And I am on this forum enough, and know which of TPTB make their rounds and listen to the fans, and I know that they have heard the names we came up with for Pikki, and all the things we said about "Who the hell are they?", and the comments about how bizarre it is that ABC hyped Rodrigo as the "Tom Cruise of Brazil." It doesn't matter to me that some people found it funny, or that the general audience didn't know that those were in-jokes. My point is that there were TOO MANY. After awhile it isn't funny anymore and it just seems like they are trying to apologize for making mistakes. Stop apologizing and just move on. We love this show and want it to keep being good. By constantly showing us that they f-ed up, it just makes me think about the f-up even more. Let's just move on from Pikki, you know? Stop groveling to us.

I agree with some of that.

Lost was a success before they had fan feedback. If there is one piece of feedback they should listen to its---dont listen to the forum people

if they start bending their story based on what people say they dont like on forums--then they are not using the talent that made the show a success in the first place

Especially the abc forum. They are just such a bunch a mindless creatures. From what I see on all lost forums--more than 50% of people cant even comprehend the themes and are completely wrong on so many obvious things, if you start listening to them you'll surely ruin the show

I would bet a million bucks that the comical way they portayed Nikki and Paulo's death was a direct result of forum opinion and it probably ruined the original idea they had because they caved in to the complainers

If you listen to the podcasts you can clearly tell the comments affect their writing. You would think they would be smart enough to understand that people who post on forums are a unique segment of the larger viewing audience..that many people describe as the "squeeky wheel". So negative opinions on forums could be as high as 60% when the overall audience might be only 30%

In know, you were told there would be No math...haha

Thank you!! They DO change the plots based on our reactions! And a little bit of that interaction is GREAT. But TOO MUCH and we are just controlling the freaking show and I don't want that. I want this to be a show that I enjoy and is smart and edgy, not a show that is dictated by the fan's whims, especially highly volatile emotional whims of the online fandom.

I'm a "newer" avid fan, and I didn't know anything of the "Tom Cruise of Brazil" line. I didn't think twice about that quote in the episode at all.

Sawyer not knowing Nikki was a cover-up as we found out, so no need to give them crap about that. Calling them "Nina and Pablo" was a shout-out to his CHARACTER more than to the fans. He always did that crap with names, so what makes these two strangers any different??

IMO, I don't see anything substantial with your gripes with these points particularly, but to each their own. I'm sure many wouldn't see any problem with it, but the scene where Nikki tells Paulo not to smoke because the ashes were evidence, then she goes right ahead putting her hand and fingerprints all over the safe before opening it... Hmm... Evidence? Anyhow, I thought the whole episode was a nod to the fans because you get the nostalgic feeling of the crash again. I had a smile throughout the episode, thinking "aww, what a great, fun show."

Okay, again, I know that the general fans would not catch the jokes. My roommate didn't. That's not my point. See above.

I've listened to the podcasts and yes we do have some input. Carlton and Damon agree that they have been influenced by some of the comments the viewers have made. The actors who played Nikki and Paulo were casts long before they got a bum rap by the viewers. However to tie up some loose ends they were used in tonights EP to show the Ben tie in as well as some other eggs I am still digesting.

I listened and read were the producers liked the "Actor" playing Ben so much that they created a story to use the Ben character even more than they had planned. I just finished reading and interview with Mr Bender who directs most of the EP's, he stated that the show evolves along a central theme then events are added as needed. This creates the layer effect of sub-plots.

The numbers didn't really mean anything, "we" gave them life. Now the numbers are used when its time to throw a curve ball, just like when you think you've figured something out and then whamo it goes a different direction.

We are being watched and we are being used (in a humorous way). I like that we are part of the series. Remember who created this forum anyway Hello J.J. Abrams ring a bell !!!!

Thank you. Again, using our input a little bit=good. We know we have influence. But too much? Not good.
This is why I have not signed on to the Charlie Life Support Petition. I love Charlie, but I want TPTB to keep with whatever plot they have cookin'.

And now people have issues with writers giving shout outs to fans? This is whining for the sake of whining.:rolleyes:

Not whining for the sake of whining. Complaing about poor writing.

I'm really against the use of that kind of wink-to-the-audience in serious drama. A lot of shows can get away with breaking the fourth wall because they don't require emotional investment from the viewers and can still work even with the sense of detatchment it brings about. Lost isn't one of those shows. I hope this is an isolated "very special episode of Lost" and that it doesn't carry on into further episodes.

Totally, Tiny Time Machine. Especially from a show that does its best to give use hidden messages and easter eggs. To give us such overt nods and easy laughs is like the opposite of the nature of this show, imo.

I'm with the last posters....no more nods and jokes to the fans!!

Are Edward Kitsis & Adam Horowitz the worst writers??? all they're espisodes are jokes and nods to the fans...

Dave, Tricia Tanaka Is Dead, Expose

and they also wrote "fire + water" which also had sort of a ridiculous whodunnit plot

This is what I don't understand.....a large number of people on this board overanalyze the crap out of every little detail (most of which mean nothing), and then when TPTB are trying to tell us something more is going on, everyone brushes it off as a "shoutout". :dongetit:

Look, I love the internal references for the fans, the stuff that only we would notice. Cool.

But the "Wolfgang Puck of Brazil" line to mock that Rodrigo Santoro was billed as the "Tom Cruise of Brazil" when he was cast on the show. The line about guest stars dying? The constant lines of Sawyer not knowing who Nikki is? Not to mention him calling them "Nina and Pablo" which was totally a shout-out to all of us calling them made-up names, and then finally settling on "Pikki." I think people on the Fuse actually *were* calling him "Pablo"!

Anyway, it's just enough is enough. We know that they know that we hated the characters. Now let's move on.

Am I the only one who feels this way???
I'm with you. I think Sawyer said "who the hell is Nikki" about two times too many. And Nikki's line "we all know what happens to guest stars."

Mind you, I loved it the first time Sawyer said "Who the hell are you?", and also the bit about Hurley just making fruit salad and moving on. But the last 3-4 episodes seem to have a lot of those specific nods to feedback from fandom, over and above the true Easter Eggs that live within the plot and show. I would never want them to give up on references to stuff in previous episodes for that makes the story web of Lost even more intricate.

I think its fun

Ugh, I totally agree. Sawyer's "who the hell are you" before the ping pong game was cute but does he have to say it again and again? It was just too much and no longer funny. I didn't really mind the Brazil reference though since a lot of people may have been wondering where he's from.

I'm with the last posters....no more nods and jokes to the fans!!

Are Edward Kitsis & Adam Horowitz the worst writers??? all they're espisodes are jokes and nods to the fans...

Dave, Tricia Tanaka Is Dead, Expose

and they also wrote "fire + water" which also had sort of a ridiculous whodunnit plot

I suppose I can kind of relate, cause I go like "uh oh" when I read about Elizabeth Sarnoff and Christina Kim being the writers of an episode, but I wouldn't agree about Kitsis and Horowitz's episodes being full of jokes and nods to the fans - even your examples don't support that.

Dave - has to be the most serious Hurley episode so far - there was a joke from Charlie and the whole Hurley/Sawyer situation, but that hardly constitutes as comic relief.
Tricia Tanaka is Dead - I suppose I agree this was way over the top, but can't say I didn't enjoy it.
Fire + Water - kind of a slow episode is probably the worst I could muster up about this episode - can't say I understand the negative reaction from fans.

I also can't say I found Expose very comic for most part - and whatever was there seemed pretty organic to me, unlike in TTID.

But that's just my take on this, I understand everything's subjective.

Over the top or not, I totally get a kick out of it. :biggrin:

Yeah!! I mean come on, now we're going to complain because they're listening to us??? HEY DON'T LISTEN TO THEM WE LOVE IT! :biggrin: Besides I don't know how we can KNOW that some of that stuff was a shout-out or just part of the plans, especially Sawyer not knowing them. I totally think there's more to that than we know....It was repeated too much, I think an editor somewhere would have stopped them and said "Look guys he says this like six times in one episode, don't you think that's overkill?" It was almost like they were trying to tell us something.

I noticed all the references, it's always a bit cheesy but it doesn't really bother me. No biggie.

This might not be the right thread, but they gave a lot of "answers" to us in subtle ways. You know like a lot of people complained that they never talked together when things happened. This episode with Nikki's flash back on the island showed them exchanging information during the time we were saying that they didn't talk to each other when things happened. I will have to watch it again to give you specifics, but Hurley, the teacher, were standing with other people when they traded some of that info.

I'm wondering if the over abundance of "shout outs" was because we tend to beat themes to death . Maybe TPTB :bash: over the head with them because they feel we in turn hit them over the head with our nit picking.:biggrin:

[quote=LostLaura;1458738]Thank you!! Totally uninsprired and over the top.



Yes, as I said several times: I like some inside jokes, but the relentless ones about Pikkie were nauseating.[quote]


Gawd, I so agree with you...The first "Who the hell is Nikki?" that came out of Sawyer's mouth was a hoot, but after that, I became irritated beyond belief! And seeing as I first suggested the name Pikki, here, I would've thrown my shoe through the tv had Sawyer actually said it...I really feel patronized by last night's episode. Call me a whiner, if you must. This ep was jarringly wasteful to me.

*hic*

I'm really against the use of that kind of wink-to-the-audience in serious drama. A lot of shows can get away with breaking the fourth wall because they don't require emotional investment from the viewers and can still work even with the sense of detatchment it brings about. Lost isn't one of those shows. I hope this is an isolated "very special episode of Lost" and that it doesn't carry on into further episodes.

Serious drama!?! It was a black comedy episode! There was very little serious about that episode. If you didn't think it was funny, you completely missed the point!

Serious drama!?! It was a black comedy episode! There was very little serious about that episode. If you didn't think it was funny, you completely missed the point!

I agree completely.

And the Sawyer bits about not knowing Pikki... it happened a lot, but it had a point so I enjoyed them.

Serious drama!?! It was a black comedy episode! There was very little serious about that episode. If you didn't think it was funny, you completely missed the point!

Yeah, I remember when the X-Files started doing this on a consistent basis and it made me cringe everytime. Another poster called Tricia Tanaka is Dead not an episode of Lost but an episode of Hurley and the Gang. Expose would have made another entertaining episode of that show, but as a Lost episode it was beyond awful. I got the point, found it funny at parts, but hated it with all of my soul because this is not the show that I want to watch when I watch Lost.

As for the inside jokes, it has to stop. They are neither funny nor relevant and it seems like the producers are just keen on doing shout outs to make rabid fanboys even more rabid. It's sad, really.

This episode really took me out of the show. It makes me have absolutely no faith in the two that are running it at the moment, as I have seen them run it into the ground. Bring back Fury and Javi.

As for the inside jokes, it has to stop. They are neither funny nor relevant...

I thought they were. :confused:

Yeah, I remember when the X-Files started doing this on a consistent basis and it made me cringe everytime. Another poster called Tricia Tanaka is Dead not an episode of Lost but an episode of Hurley and the Gang. Expose would have made another entertaining episode of that show, but as a Lost episode it was beyond awful. I got the point, found it funny at parts, but hated it with all of my soul because this is not the show that I want to watch when I watch Lost.

As for the inside jokes, it has to stop. They are neither funny nor relevant and it seems like the producers are just keen on doing shout outs to make rabid fanboys even more rabid. It's sad, really.

This episode really took me out of the show. It makes me have absolutely no faith in the two that are running it at the moment, as I have seen them run it into the ground. Bring back Fury and Javi.

Couldn't agree less. Also, the people running the show now have been there since season 1. So, I don't think you are really coming from an accurate place.

Couldn't agree less. Also, the people running the show now have been there since season 1. So, I don't think you are really coming from an accurate place.

Yeah, they were there, but there were not the only ones running it back then.

Yeah, they were there, but there were not the only ones running it back then.

Okay, but even back then they used dark humor for Hurley episodes and flashbacks like "Numbers". This type of thing didn't just appear this season.

I am still trying to figure out the purpose of Nikki & Paolo. they were introduced earlier this season as a way to appease the fans who were complaining that there were too many characters in the background and b/c tptb were killing off too many losties especially the hotter females.
they were like token characters which may have been a self fulfilling prophecy for the fans to hate them; they never brought much to the table unlike characters such as the tailies or desmond who had stuff to say and...personality for lack of better words.
this episode seemed a little pointless but was nonetheless entertaining. it was weird that they had paolo looking off in the distance right after the plane crash. it was even weirder when they interacted with ethan - which i swore would be an intro to him having their pack with the jewels and using them - but i guess ethan really was just being an "observer" at that point but at some point he either decided or was ordered to "interact" with claire.
my main point is that the writers brought them on and must have had some purpose for them but because of the negative reaction to them scrapped that purpose. they came, they said some dialogue, they tagged along to go to the pearl, and they were killed. it makes me a little frustrated, because i was among the haters, but after expose i kind of like them - they were given a story and personality that the writers should have given them to begin with. if they started with a flashback for them it would have been a great icebreaker.
i am hoping that the director telling nikki that they could bring her back would be foreshadowing indicating that somehow they dig themselves out (stranger things have happened on this show) and i was so frustrated when they were checking out doc arzts bugs and didn't think about spiders or bug bites or anything.
this episode told us things we didn't know before without question, but didn't answer any questions - i would have loved to see the others hanging out in the pearl for longer (i am surprised that ben and juliet were there - i would have thought a lower level other or maybe even ethan would have been the one to be down there) and also to find out how ethan got his info for the list and how he communicated with the others while on that side of the beach.
but my final opinion is that this episode was really just a 40 minute long shoutout to the fans. the writers said that we hate them, promised that they would be cemented into the islands mythology and that they would be redeemed in our eyes. i guess they meant that they would take these two characters we hated and kill them off in a very agonizing and over the top way, but i would have rather had them used more. now the cast is back where it started with even less core characters and there is still a need for the emergence of other people from the background. i just hope the writers get it right this time.

Okay, but even back then they used dark humor for Hurley episodes and flashbacks like "Numbers". This type of thing didn't just appear this season.

I know, and I really like those elements, as long as they are just elements of the show. They should know by now that there can be too much of a good thing. Like I said, I probably would have liked it if it had been an episode of a different series.

Yeah, they were there, but there were not the only ones running it back then.

I'm not going to quibble with you, but Damon wrote or co-wrote the first three episodes (including the show's pilot) and Damon and Carlton had their hands all over the first season. If you don't like what they are doing now, fine, but let's not try to revise history. They were in control in season 1.

What's really sad is that this kind of behavior is driving me to not want to even watch the show anymore -- Sort of like if you regularly go to a certain store because they've got fine products, and one day the owner won't accept a coupon, and then the next week, he doesn't have your order ready, and the next week, he's just got a plain old bad attitude, until finally you decide to just go across the street to the Wal-Mart or whatever.

"TPTB" can be so smug that it's hard to (A) take them seriously and (B) respect what they are doing. They constantly stick in these meta jokes, like they're saying, "We know what you're saying about us, but we don't care, hahahaha!" The podcasts are all about how viewers need to chill out and stop analyzing every little detail and how they need to stop asking for answers on top of answers and just sit back and enjoy the ride. They make it clear that they believe the fans that complain about what Lost has become are not true Lost fans at all.

And then... they go and kill off two characters because fans saw a few minutes of them on their screens and didn't like them.

I'm not going to quibble with you, but Damon wrote or co-wrote the first three episodes (including the show's pilot) and Damon and Carlton had their hands all over the first season. If you don't like what they are doing now, fine, but let's not try to revise history. They were in control in season 1.


Revising history? You seem to be the one doing that by conveniently forgetting that other key players were involved in the creation of the mythology and the direction of the show; namely Fury and Javi.

I know, and I really like those elements, as long as they are just elements of the show.

What I'm saying is that the episode of "Numbers" used a similar tone. Were there other scenes that offered more than just the humor? Yes. The same as there was last night.

Why is one good and the other terrible?

What I'm saying is that the episode of "Numbers" used a similar tone. Were there other scenes that offered more than just the humor? Yes. The same as there was last night.

Why is one good and the other terrible?

There were definitely other scenes in Numbers, which I'm a big fan of, that contrasted the comedic elements. That's probably why I like that episode so much. They weren't the in your face--this episode is trying to be funny--jokes that were all over Expose.

Last night's episode really reminded me of some of the humorous X-Files episodes. There were always elements of humor and black comedy on that show, but so long as it didn't take up entire episodes, the comedic elements played out really well. However, alot of X-Files fans liked those episodes, but I never did.

But, that's not the sole reason why I thought Expose was terrible. It just contributed alot to my opinion. However, if I had just tuned into this episode without really being invested in Lost as I have been since the first season, I'm sure I would have liked the episode. It's just not what I expect from Lost. Hope that clarifies my opinion.

There were definitely other scenes in Numbers, which I'm a big fan of, that contrasted the comedic elements. That's probably why I like that episode so much. They weren't the in your face--this episode is trying to be funny--jokes that were all over Expose.


We'll just have to agree to disagree... because the guy jumping off the roof in despair... news about the meteor hitting Mr. Clucks... Hurley being mistaken for a drug dealer... the in-your-face humor was all over that episode as I saw it.

We'll just have to agree to disagree... because the guy jumping off the roof in despair... news about the meteor hitting Mr. Clucks... Hurley being mistaken for a drug dealer... the in-your-face humor was all over that episode as I saw it.

No worries. The guy jumping off the roof was one of the best parts of that episode. That and the really heavy scene with Hurley and Sam Toomey's wife. It was the perfect mixture.

No worries. The guy jumping off the roof was one of the best parts of that episode. That and the really heavy scene with Hurley and Sam Toomey's wife. It was the perfect mixture.

I agree. And I think that last night had a similar mixture... the scene where Paolo told Nikki why he hid the bag made my wife all misty-eyed.

I really enjoyed the "shout-outs" :)

I agree in principal with the original post. Some shout outs are fun but don't over do it.

But then I am going to pretend in my own little delusional world that Sawyer's use of the nick name "Pablo' was a shout out just for me! (For those who don't know I called him Pablo, Pookie, Poopy, Perlito ,Panda, Pinata...I think maybe even Parchezzi.) Anyway I was known for never using his proper name.

Hey. I KNOW Sawyer uses nicknames all the time but This is my half a moment and I'm going to take it! :D

I don't mind the shout outs but Sawyer's "Who the hell are you" thing was getting old.
Kinda got on my nerves and it reminded me of "Every man for himself" when sawyer kept saying "its everyman for himself" over and over

It's been a while that i've had any incentive to post. Love this show, but man, I've had to go from being a loud and proud Lost fan to almost denying I 'really' watch this show.

Anyways, this episode was pointless IMHO, beside the they wisely 1) decided to kill off those two morons to make room for a developing story as the season is coming to a close; the two were expendable because they had no developed story, so no sense in wasting time on them for one more episode, 2) the way they did it was all tounge in cheek, I guess you could say, and was a complete 'shout out' episode, from Sawyers '-And who the hell are you?' 's to the "ZOMBIE SEASON" inside joke thing with whats her face opening her eyes at the very end before she had dirt dumped on her.

The impression I got from this episode is, alright we know people despise the fact these two noobs are here, so lets kill them off in the most comical (?) way, perhaps, and by doing this ( I PERSONALLY HOPE), we allow ourselves, as writers and producers to spend some time on some story that ACTUALLY matters, with some sense of continuity.

Maybe i'll post again when there's another episode that airs as good as Locke's were. He should blow up the whole freaking island.

I love the shout outs!!!! Because i'm the one that started the giant hamster stuff long time ago.......on the Linear Board.........which we still talk about.............and my avatar is a kung fu hamster!!!

I love the shoutouts. People who read the forums can spot then, people who dont wont miss anything

I actually look for the shoutouts now

The way I see it, some episodes have like a special theme or subtheme that the writers very intrincately web into the overall plot. I enjoy those kind of episodes (Dave, FBYE, TTID…) a lot. They work advancing the overall plot a bit, but also make a good stand alone story of some different genre. I’m sorry, but I find it hard to better explain myself.

In “Exposé” the theme they explore is exactly “a TV show”: the script begins with the shooting of a show, and includes little interesting self-references, then there are some winks to CSI, “Baywatch” and other shows. The interesting other side of the coin is that our “losties” take the place of the viewers, or even fans, and that’s why the self-references seem to be made just to us: the Lost-fans. For the first time all of the characters on the beach act just as we would: there is an apparent death and then they make the kind of questions we make in the forums (like the “watch live thread”): monster? polar bear? And later: are they the Others? We even have the figure of the spoiler-loaded fan, in this case Desmond, who knows some piece of information that comes later in the picture (this time not because of his power, but what he knows is something that belongs later in the show, in a flashback).

OK, I’m not sure I’m able to explain myself, but I think it was a brilliant exercise and I love the intricacy of it. I don’t think they’ll do the same again. They have shown us just once that the characters make all kind of questions, just as we always do and the writers usually don’t find it so interesting to show us. They created this episode with the necessary tools to make that kind of thing interesting, and once the point is made I guess they’ll just go ahead and attempt all kind of new crazy things. I don’t think we have to worry that they’ll repeat an episode like this.

With this kind of weird episodes they take big risks, but I love them for it. They keep changing the perspective of the show and giving us surprises. Of course they shouldn’t overdo it, but I don’t think they do. It’s normal that some people won’t like some of the weird things, but it’s good that the writers are brave enough to try new things, even if some time they don’t hit the ball (although I did enjoy F+W). I particularly think Kitsis and Horovitz are great and look forward to any new episode from them.

Well, it took me a long time to get back to this thread, unfortunately. And maybe no one will be back now that we are an eppy past this one, but I just want to say this....
it seems to me that the people who are tired of the shout-outs are the ones who are feeling dissatisfied with the show in some ways and need to be kept "within" the story, without the constant, smug-seeming inside jokey lines that can distract from plot. Those who are not feeling that way about the show are less inclinced to be annoyed by the shout-outs.
That's just my impression.

In general, I have to say again, I love the easter eggs. I love the cross-references to previous episodes. But the shout-outs are too much. Just too much.

The one cool thing about the shout outs is a great way to get more people to come here -

I was telling people at gymnastics about this place and the talk about Nikki and Paulo not being liked here very much and the next thing you know they were getting the comments from Sawyer and then a few weeks later - DEAD - or buried alive -
Anyway it convinced them to ask for the web page to come check this place out - that is kind of cool!

LL...I still think that "Expose'" was a very avant-garde shout-out epi...TPTB were more-less saying "OK, you don't like Pikki...we'll send them out in a very macabre fashion".

Just look at the last scene, with Hurley and Sawyer filling in the grave, to morose music...a few shovelfuls and suddenly (with no apparent passage of time) there is a HUGE burial mound of sand.

Maybe one has to have a dark sense of humor to love that epi. :biggrin:

Hm, Tabs. I do think I have a dark sense of humor, and I did see what they were trying to do with the episode. I guess it just didn't work for me. shrug.

Did you like Nikki and Paulo - it surprises me that you wouldn't like the shout outs - I don't say that in a bad way - just a hum lets figure out why you don't way -

Keep everyone happy i say!

No, I didn't like Pikki, but that's not my issue with the episode. My issue was the over-the-top shout-outs. And not just in Expose, although it was mostly an issue with Expose. But there have been lines in other episodes that bothered me too.

Do you feel it compromises the story line -
or the integrity of the show?

That is the one thing I have worried about that the story line may have to change in order to please us - but again it is kind of cool that they know we are here

Did you like Nikki and Paulo - it surprises me that you wouldn't like the shout outs - I don't say that in a bad way - just a hum lets figure out why you don't way -

Keep everyone happy i say!

I think it's just different strokes for different folks... some people Can't Stand anything that breaks the "reality" of a television program or movie, some others Can't Stand seeing a boom mike or a car in the background of LOTR, some people Can't Stand even the smallest continuity errors... other people just don't care and enjoy it all.

Thanks forgiven - I guess I had never even thought of it that way that it breaks the 'realness' of it.

I was just chatting to my hubby (who doesn't watch :( ) about a new theory and he said you do know that it isn't real there isn't an island out there with these people on it - but in my mind I do think it is real - and I can see why shout outs would break that illusion!

I think it's just different strokes for different folks... some people Can't Stand anything that breaks the "reality" of a television program or movie, some others Can't Stand seeing a boom mike or a car in the background of LOTR, some people Can't Stand even the smallest continuity errors... other people just don't care and enjoy it all.

Yeah I think part of the reason the shout outs don't bother me as I'm used to art forms being self-referential , post-modern, 'breaking the third wall', etc so it doesn't phase me whenever it happens.

So long as no-one talks directly to camera everything will be fine.

That happened in Dr.Who the other day with no explanation as to why, honestly, I think I said out loud...

Who are you talking to?

It was just unnatural, it made no-sense and served no purpose, I think maybe they were just really pleased with the make-up and wanted to show it off a bit.

See I guess Lost is such a fantastical show to me anyway...and I always have this thing with movies and TV, I just laugh when they do crazy things (i.e. Alias, James Bond, MacGyver, Mission Impossible) and say well they can do that because this is TV and you can do anything on TV. Maybe that's why I like the shout-outs and it doesn't bother me?