OK so Im a little confused.

Ben says "Ill figure out what he's emotionally invested in and exploit it"
Juliet says "So then we capture all 3 of them? Austen and Ford, too?"

So does that mean Juliet put 2 and 2 together, and assumed Ben wants Kate and Sawyer capture to help break Jack.....OR were they already getting Kate/Sawyer for something else, and shes saying "ok, so we get jack while were at it"

I feel like TPTB were trying to clear that up with the scene...but I missed it

I think she had put 2-and-2 together already, like she knew part of Ben's plans already (they'd been talking about the Triangle as much as we do? heh) and was putting the rest of it together.

I dunno... I think they might have wanted them for something else.

After all Picket said "Ben would rather die than let those two go" or something along thoes lines... I don't think anyone would think Ben would die to keep them, if their entire purpose was to convince Jack. And also they separated them right away, and didn't even dangle Kate in front of Jack until the last possible moment.

I think Ben had it planned that if he put Kate and Sawyer in that situation, then something would happen. Cage sex. Remember, Jack just walked out the door and walked over to the monitors and saw it. He knew Jack would do what he wanted and Ben knew he would probably have to let them go in order for Jack to do it.

That's my opinion

Jack's emotions were for Kate - and that is what Ben exploited - making Kate believe that Sawyer would die - I think he took those two as a total set up -
and the fact that Sawyer met Jack's dad before he got on the plane and then told Jack before leaving on the raft - all played into the love triangle - that Ben exploited

Ahh no consensus!

I was actually disappointed that the reason Ben wanted Kate and Sawyer is exactly what everyone had speculated -- that they just needed them as leverage to get Jack to operate on Ben. It just doesn't make any sense to me when all he really had to do was go and ask Jack. He could have pretended he wasn't part of the child-kidnapping Others -- could have said he was part of Dharma, but he and his group had been abandoned there years ago. He could have said that he'd overheard the Others talking about this man named Jack who was a spinal surgeon. Wouldn't that have been easier than kidnapping all 3 of them, and putting Sawyer and Kate into hard labor and peril in hopes that they'd have cage sex? And in further hope that if they let Jack find out, he'd be sure to want to operate on Ben? It seems like a rather thin plan to me, built on a lot of assumptions.

I was actually disappointed that the reason Ben wanted Kate and Sawyer is exactly what everyone had speculated -- that they just needed them as leverage to get Jack to operate on Ben. It just doesn't make any sense to me when all he really had to do was go and ask Jack. He could have pretended he wasn't part of the child-kidnapping Others -- could have said he was part of Dharma, but he and his group had been abandoned there years ago. He could have said that he'd overheard the Others talking about this man named Jack who was a spinal surgeon. Wouldn't that have been easier than kidnapping all 3 of them, and putting Sawyer and Kate into hard labor and peril in hopes that they'd have cage sex? And in further hope that if they let Jack find out, he'd be sure to want to operate on Ben? It seems like a rather thin plan to me, built on a lot of assumptions.

Yeah I agree. I think that we are supposed to be taking from this episode that Kate and Sawyer were taken to be used against Jack, but that still doesn't make tons of sense. For one, if they want to exploit Jack's emotions, why not just take Kate? They could easily just hold a gun to her head and Jack would do the surgery. I don't understand the necessity for complicating it with Sawyer. I still don't really get that whole storyline.

But I think what they were trying to clear up was that yes, Kate and Sawyer were used and manipulated to make Jack do what Ben wanted. That's the way I see it at least.

What "scene" or "episode" were Ben and Juliet watching in the Pearl. Jack was on the moniter sitting beside the bunkbed. Was that when Michael was passed out or Sawyer?

Oh and I agree that Juliet was just putting 2 and 2 together and that they used Sawyer and Kate to exploit Jack, but that concept still bothers me. Stupid Others...grr:ranting:

So does that mean Juliet put 2 and 2 together, and assumed Ben wants Kate and Sawyer capture to help break Jack.....

I think that's it exacty.
100%
For one, if they want to exploit Jack's emotions, why not just take Kate?

Sawyer was the only way to get to Kate. Kate wouldn't have done anything for The Others if Sawyer hadn't been threatened. And Ben engineered it so whatever she felt for Sawyer was heightened by the Hydra imprisonment with him.

I, too, felt that TPTB were trying to clear up some confusion there over why they were taken, but it came out clear as mud to me.

If they wanted to use his connection with Kate for leverage, why did they need Sawyer? Why not just dangle threats and punishment of Kate in front of him to get him to do the surgery?? Sort of like what they did to Sawyer in front of Kate.
Like someone else mentioned, they completely separated them until they finally sent Kate in with her pleas for Sawyer's life. It just seems like a convoluted and roundabout way of "influencing" him.

It makes more sense to me that they had plans to take Kate and Sawyer for some other reason and then took Jack also. They got a "two-fer" with Kate. I can't, for the life of me though, figure out what reason they would have wanted Kate and Sawyer for though.
I dunno, I just can't come up with a scenario that makes sense to me for the whole thing. :undecide:

So then why all the mystery with "Ben would never let them get away"

So then why all the mystery with "Ben would never let them get away"


I think Ben probably doesn't like anyone to "get away". He likes to run things and doesn't like decisions taken out of his hands. Pickett knew this but didn't know or didn't believe that Ben had made a deal to let them go. I don't think he wanted to believe it anyway.

What "scene" or "episode" were Ben and Juliet watching in the Pearl. Jack was on the moniter sitting beside the bunkbed. Was that when Michael was passed out or Sawyer?Its Sawyer passed out. More specifically, it looks like the scene where Jack and Kate are doing the whole "I'll stay, you go to Shannon's funeral" dance from What Kate Did.

I think Ben probably doesn't like anyone to "get away". He likes to run things and doesn't like decisions taken out of his hands. Pickett knew this but didn't know or didn't believe that Ben had made a deal to let them go. I don't think he wanted to believe it anyway.

This is what I think, as well. Ben used Sawyer and Kate to get to Jack but he never intended on letting them go. He has to keep up the strong leader guise and letting them go would show weakness. I wouldn't doubt if he planned to put them on trial like Juliet.

Remember, also that Ben wanted Jack to "want" to do the surgery. If he had just threatened Kate in front of Jack he wouldn't be doing it because he "wanted" to but because he had to. Ben likes to give the illusion of free will when he is actually in control.

Sawyer was the only way to get to Kate. Kate wouldn't have done anything for The Others if Sawyer hadn't been threatened. And Ben engineered it so whatever she felt for Sawyer was heightened by the Hydra imprisonment with him.

But Kate didn't have to do anything for the Others. This is what I don't get. Why the convoluted plot to make Kate ask for the surgery and have Jack feel hurt enough to do it? Why not just keep Kate handcuffed, point a gun at her and have Jack see? It would take a lot less time and be a whole bunch easier. I see what they did in reality, but it still doesn't really make much sense as to why it had to be so ridiculous (not to mention six episodes long!)

Honestly, I think they could have taken Jack and any other random Lostie and they could have gotten Jack to do the surgery. Jack would not have let them kill any of them - Sayid, Claire, Jin, whoever - if he could help it. I just don't get why they had to have such an unnecessarily complicated and illogical plot involving the triangle that everyone is sick of.

I, too, felt that TPTB were trying to clear up some confusion there over why they were taken, but it came out clear as mud to me.

If they wanted to use his connection with Kate for leverage, why did they need Sawyer? Why not just dangle threats and punishment of Kate in front of him to get him to do the surgery?? Sort of like what they did to Sawyer in front of Kate.
Like someone else mentioned, they completely separated them until they finally sent Kate in with her pleas for Sawyer's life. It just seems like a convoluted and roundabout way of "influencing" him.

It makes more sense to me that they had plans to take Kate and Sawyer for some other reason and then took Jack also. They got a "two-fer" with Kate. I can't, for the life of me though, figure out what reason they would have wanted Kate and Sawyer for though.
I dunno, I just can't come up with a scenario that makes sense to me for the whole thing. :undecide:

I agree! TPTB have said they're trying to fix some of the admitted mistakes of the first six episodes, and that's what I saw Juliet's line as. But I still don't fully think it makes logical sense either.

And I still wonder about Hurley's presence on the list. He was supposed to be the messenger, but why did it have to be Hurley? Couldn't anybody have sufficed?
100%
Remember, also that Ben wanted Jack to "want" to do the surgery. If he had just threatened Kate in front of Jack he wouldn't be doing it because he "wanted" to but because he had to. Ben likes to give the illusion of free will when he is actually in control.

That's true. I had forgotten about that. But I think that's kind of silly/stupid anyways. If it meant saving Kate or anyone, Jack would 'want' to do the surgery and would do it of his own free will, you know? It's just playing with semantics. I don't know. That whole kidnapping plot didn't ever seem to work out right/make total sense.

...if they want to exploit Jack's emotions, why not just take Kate? They could easily just hold a gun to her head and Jack would do the surgery. I don't understand the necessity for complicating it with Sawyer. I still don't really get that whole storyline...

You're right. They could have just taken Kate and Jack and left Sawyer out of it all together. A gun to Kate's head would have definitely done the trick!

Its Sawyer passed out. More specifically, it looks like the scene where Jack and Kate are doing the whole "I'll stay, you go to Shannon's funeral" dance from What Kate Did.


Cool. Thanks. So they really did have this plan from early on.

Didn't bother me that Kate and Sawyer were only there to be leverage. Occam's Razor-- the simplest explanation is probably the right one.

I agree! TPTB have said they're trying to fix some of the admitted mistakes of the first six episodes, and that's what I saw Juliet's line as. But I still don't fully think it makes logical sense either.

True. There's a lot to be fixed after those six episode (or rather the last three) so I guess this wasn't the best way to start because it's still convoluted and illogical.

I don't think Kate and Sawyer served any other purpose, this is just a bit of damage control.

I think Ben probably doesn't like anyone to "get away". He likes to run things and doesn't like decisions taken out of his hands.

I agree; in fact, at the end of TMFT, Ben even said it aloud: "I'd have done anything to keep Jack on this Island, but I also couldn't be seen breaking my promise."

I was actually disappointed that the reason Ben wanted Kate and Sawyer is exactly what everyone had speculated -- that they just needed them as leverage to get Jack to operate on Ben. It just doesn't make any sense to me when all he really had to do was go and ask Jack. It seems like a rather thin plan to me, built on a lot of assumptions.

That's always puzzled me, too. Heck, there probably was a time when Jack was on the beach or sweating in the Swan when he might've agreed to do surgery on a stranger just for a shower and some new clothes! I mean, it's just in Jack's nature to help people; part of why he became a surgeon, right? (leaving all the "daddy issues" aside for now.)

IF Ben had asked Jack before Jack learned that there were "vicious Others" on the Island, then Ben wouldn't have had to do all that manipulating.
Unless, of course, Ben enjoys that, and just manipulates people because it's in his blood...he enjoys it...and because, whoever it was that raised him on the Island simply raised him that way--to be a manipulator.

Couple things that came to mind while reading this thread:

In What Kate Did, very close to the scene where Benry and Juliet watch on the cameras: Remember when Sawyer says to Kate "you killed me" in that creepy way when he was half in/half out of his coma and it was implied that he was speaking as Kate's father? I wonder if Benry had anything to do with that. Possibly trying confuse things between Kate and Sawyer? The way it went was, Sawyer says the weirdness to Kate in his coma, Kate throws him on the ground (or something), Kate runs off crying, Kate kisses Jack. That's where the triangle started getting really confusing. Benry played Cupid and now we have the triangle. ;) I'm just saying... :)

Maybe Benry wanting Jack to want to do the surgery has something to do with The Box Effect on the island. Considering Jack's prowess with spinal surgery off-island, that combined with Jack's will and Benry would surely be completely healed.

I guess this is a good enough time for my first post.

Look at her first comment. "He's cute." This was Ben giving Juliet her first view of Jack. He was showing her who her target was. This was supposed to be long and drawn out.

It's not just a triangle. Ben was making it a square. The key was to to pull Jack away from Kate and push him into Juliet. She bears some resemblance to his wife. She was to be sympathetic. She has medical training (common ground). And for Jack to make the move, Ben needed Sawyer.

If Sawyer isn't taken as well, Jack would never feel betrayed by Kate or the desire to let her go. Remember, he didn't immediately agree to the chance to go home or to Kate's original pleadings. They needed Sawyer and Kate together to push Jack to Juliet, and then to want to save Ben. Ben manipulates and he likes to do it so thoroughly he will take the time to do so and make the manipulated feel it was his idea.

Anyway, that is my humble opinion.

SmG

I guess this is a good enough time for my first post.

Look at her first comment. "He's cute." This was Ben giving Juliet her first view of Jack. He was showing her who her target was. This was supposed to be long and drawn out.

It's not just a triangle. Ben was making it a square. The key was to to pull Jack away from Kate and push him into Juliet. She bears some resemblance to his wife. She was to be sympathetic. She has medical training (common ground). And for Jack to make the move, Ben needed Sawyer.

If Sawyer isn't taken as well, Jack would never feel betrayed by Kate or the desire to let her go. Remember, he didn't immediately agree to the chance to go home or to Kate's original pleadings. They needed Sawyer and Kate together to push Jack to Juliet, and then to want to save Ben. Ben manipulates and he likes to do it so thoroughly he will take the time to do so and make the manipulated feel it was his idea.

Anyway, that is my humble opinion.

SmG

Great first post ShadowmageGalen. That definitely makes more sense. Hopefully you'll post more than once a year. ;)

I guess this is a good enough time for my first post.

Look at her first comment. "He's cute." This was Ben giving Juliet her first view of Jack. He was showing her who her target was. This was supposed to be long and drawn out.

It's not just a triangle. Ben was making it a square. The key was to to pull Jack away from Kate and push him into Juliet. She bears some resemblance to his wife. She was to be sympathetic. She has medical training (common ground). And for Jack to make the move, Ben needed Sawyer.

If Sawyer isn't taken as well, Jack would never feel betrayed by Kate or the desire to let her go. Remember, he didn't immediately agree to the chance to go home or to Kate's original pleadings. They needed Sawyer and Kate together to push Jack to Juliet, and then to want to save Ben. Ben manipulates and he likes to do it so thoroughly he will take the time to do so and make the manipulated feel it was his idea.

Anyway, that is my humble opinion.

SmG

D'oh!! That totally makes sense to me!! Still a bit over-the-top and comlicated when simply ASKING would have been so much easier (though I know the Others probably don't want all the Losties moving in with them and gettin' all homey with them and wanting them to help them get off the island etc. etc. but still....could have found a way to just ask, but still keep them away or whatever. I dunno.)
Yeah, it's still a convoluted and roundabout way of doing it, but your reasoning makes a lot of sense and I'm gonna go with it. TPTB could have been a bit clearer in their effort to "clear" it up for us though!!

Great first post!! :biggrin:

Hello people!!! This answer is blatantly obvious at this point. "I'm going to find out what he is emotionally invested in and exploit it." Besides Sara, Jack is emotionally invested in Kate. Ben planned to use Kate and Sawyer against Jack the entire time. Whatever it took to get Jack in the operating room.

I guess this is a good enough time for my first post.

Look at her first comment. "He's cute." This was Ben giving Juliet her first view of Jack. He was showing her who her target was. This was supposed to be long and drawn out.

It's not just a triangle. Ben was making it a square. The key was to to pull Jack away from Kate and push him into Juliet. She bears some resemblance to his wife. She was to be sympathetic. She has medical training (common ground). And for Jack to make the move, Ben needed Sawyer.

If Sawyer isn't taken as well, Jack would never feel betrayed by Kate or the desire to let her go. Remember, he didn't immediately agree to the chance to go home or to Kate's original pleadings. They needed Sawyer and Kate together to push Jack to Juliet, and then to want to save Ben. Ben manipulates and he likes to do it so thoroughly he will take the time to do so and make the manipulated feel it was his idea.

Anyway, that is my humble opinion.

SmG

ITA. I think Juliet is going to come into some very interesting storylines soon as well, which will make us either love her or hate her, i.e., where do her loyalties lie :)

Plus, Ben is the "leader" of the Others, and Jack is the "leader" of the Losties (I'm putting those in "" because it's just how I think it's supposed to be seen), so for Ben to break Jack - where he never wanted to return to the Losties - some of who owe their life to him, would be one more trick in Ben's corner. One - the Losties have no doctor, and two, Ben had the upper hand on Jack, in a way. That wasn't why he didn't just have a gun to Kate's head, he wants to always be the one in charge and it would be better if Jack felt he had nothing. Ben would "win", for lack of a better word.

But Kate didn't have to do anything for the Others. This is what I don't get. Why the convoluted plot to make Kate ask for the surgery and have Jack feel hurt enough to do it? Why not just keep Kate handcuffed, point a gun at her and have Jack see? It would take a lot less time and be a whole bunch easier. I see what they did in reality, but it still doesn't really make much sense as to why it had to be so ridiculous (not to mention six episodes long!)

Honestly, I think they could have taken Jack and any other random Lostie and they could have gotten Jack to do the surgery. Jack would not have let them kill any of them - Sayid, Claire, Jin, whoever - if he could help it. I just don't get why they had to have such an unnecessarily complicated and illogical plot involving the triangle that everyone is sick of.

.

You should never do this with TV Zoe. You could reduce any story to its smallest part to achieve a plot line...but then you dont have a story or a theme..you have facts.

I mean, just think about it. Just how interesting would your alternative be?

"Why not just keep Kate handcuffed, point a gun at her and have Jack see?"

Well, they answered that. Ben said the plan was to make jack "want" to save ben.
It doesnt seem like you absorbed the theme. Your senario above has very little depth and has been done a thousands times in movies and even on this show.Viewers expect a little more than that

I thought it was a good story. It wasnt for you Zoe. But one thing I have learned after hundreds of TV series and movies is you cant enjoy the story if your going to replace the characters plans, or actions with your own. Many times you will run into bad writing..but this was very well written. Maybe you'll come to appreciate it more later.

Why didn't he just ask...hmmm is this before or after Ethan kidnapped Claire?? Why didn't they just ask Claire to come to the medical hatch so they could steal her baby. They could have asked Danielle for her kid too. No offense meant here but are we watching the same show.

There's not a chance that Jack would have done the surgery after events that had already passed and I think the whole point is Ben doesn't just kill people outright, his game is manipulation and he needed Sawyer to complete that manipulation. I think he also wanted to win Jack over just a little...hoding a gun to Kate's head doesn't accomplish that. Making Jack think that Kate has betrayed him while he's been treated nicely and fed by the others not to mention hanging out with Juliet does.

Keep in mind that Jack didn't know how Kate and Sawyer were treated. It was a complete manipulation. I thought the Pearl scene was great!!

One more thing, I think Ben knew that Jack would try to spring the other two and if it was just Kate she wouldn't leave With Sawyer in the mix, Kate has no choice. Just a thought. If they just held a gun to Kate's head, Jack would most likely have started the surgery and then done exactly what he did and threatened Ben and then Kate would have caused trouble. I don't know if this is coming out right but I'm tired...

Why not just take Kate and put a gun to her head???

Because Alex stated last week that Ben manipulates people into doing what he wants, and making them think it was their own idea. Plus he said he wanted Jack to want to do it.

It may be the more complicated way of achieving the same end result, but it's the way Ben does things. Maybe it's his way of controling people but still coming out looking like a nice guy.

I agree with care_n_jim. Ben set it all up. Remember the fake heart monitor they put in Sawyer? Remember how easy it was for Kate to get out her cage and sneak into Sawyer's? All manipulation, and now we know why. It wasn't so they could make a baby for the Others to take. It was to get Jack to do the surgery.

ITA. I think Juliet is going to come into some very interesting storylines soon as well, which will make us either love her or hate her, i.e., where do her loyalties lie :)

Plus, Ben is the "leader" of the Others, and Jack is the "leader" of the Losties (I'm putting those in "" because it's just how I think it's supposed to be seen), so for Ben to break Jack - where he never wanted to return to the Losties - some of who owe their life to him, would be one more trick in Ben's corner. One - the Losties have no doctor, and two, Ben had the upper hand on Jack, in a way. That wasn't why he didn't just have a gun to Kate's head, he wants to always be the one in charge and it would be better if Jack felt he had nothing. Ben would "win", for lack of a better word.

Exactly what I was thinking. Taking Kate and putting a gun to her head would probably convince Jack to do the surgery, but taking Sawyer and working the love triangle to Jack's disadvantage breaks Jack down and makes him weak. That's a bigger win for Ben's team. Throw Juliet in there and you have a whole other host of possible advantages. Jack has bought Juliet's "unwilling Other in need of rescuing" thing, and I'm sure she will end up back at the beach with Jack vouching for her. Now, if Juliet is secretly still loyal to Ben, then she's the perfect double agent. Will be interesting to see how that shakes down. In any case, the point is, I think Ben is more than a manipulator, he's a military strategist. If he hasn't read Sun Tzu's The Art of War, I'd be surprised.

-The art of war is of vital importance to the State. It is a matter of life and death, a road either to safety or to ruin. Hence it is a subject of inquiry which can on no account be neglected.

-All warfare is based on deception.

- Begin by seizing something which your opponent holds dear; then he will be amenable to your will.

-The clever combatant imposes his will on the enemy, but does not allow the enemy's will to be imposed on him.

-To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.

-Sun Tzu, the Art of War

Sounds like something Ben would get behind. I think in Ben's eyes, this is HIS island, and if you aren't alligned with him, you're the enemy. The 815ers were unwelcomed interlopers, and definitely a possible threat. How do you deal with such a threat? Wave a white flag and come in peace? Maybe, and definitely the friendliest, most hospitable thing to do...except that would show weakness, which could be a fatal mistake IF your main goal is protecting your position of power. I think Ben did a pretty good job of trying to secure his position of power, while also getting the whole surgery business done. The tailies were a smaller group, so Ben's peeps just went in and took the people they thought could be easily manipulated to join the Others. The beachies were much greater in number, so they were handled differently. Lots of mind games, smoke and mirrors, stay on your side of the island or else, divide and conquer, etc etc.

So, you have two leaders with two very different mentalities..you have Jack's humanitarian "live together, die alone" mantra, which is in direct opposition to Ben's "if you aren't one of my people, you're the enemy and must be contained" vibe. And then there's Locke, who is all about following the directives of a mystical "higher power" at any cost. Makes for some interesting battle of wills.

I agree with care_n_jim. Ben set it all up. Remember the fake heart monitor they put in Sawyer? Remember how easy it was for Kate to get out her cage and sneak into Sawyer's? All manipulation, and now we know why. It wasn't so they could make a baby for the Others to take. It was to get Jack to do the surgery.

Well part of it. Once Jack saw Kate with Sawyer he would be ready and willing to leave the island and Kate behind. That's when the offer to do the surgery to leave the island deal came up. And Jack took it. He wouldn't have done it willingly if Kate were back at camp or being held with a gun to her head.

One other thing ... when Juliet says that Jack is cute she looks at Ben. It seemed obvious she meant it to hurt Ben but Ben didn't really care. I then wondered why an underling would say that to her boss. I also wondered why the boss would tell and underling that he manipulates people to get what he wants. So I'm left wondering whether Ben is really the one in charge. Play that scene over again and consider that Juliet is the one in charge. I think it makes more sense. Ben may have the skills to manipulate but I'm now considering that he works for Juliet. If this is the case, the whole "trial" and "marking" of Juliet was meant to keep her leadership a secret and to get Jack, who fell in love with his first wife after a painful ordeal, to begin falling in love with Juliet. But I think Jack is on to them as evidenced by Jack whispering to Kate that he would return for her, whispering so the Others wouldn't hear.

They needed Sawyer to get Kate to get Jack to cooperate.

Get it?

I agree; in fact, at the end of TMFT, Ben even said it aloud: "I'd have done anything to keep Jack on this Island, but I also couldn't be seen breaking my promise."



That's always puzzled me, too. Heck, there probably was a time when Jack was on the beach or sweating in the Swan when he might've agreed to do surgery on a stranger just for a shower and some new clothes! I mean, it's just in Jack's nature to help people; part of why he became a surgeon, right? (leaving all the "daddy issues" aside for now.)

IF Ben had asked Jack before Jack learned that there were "vicious Others" on the Island, then Ben wouldn't have had to do all that manipulating.
Unless, of course, Ben enjoys that, and just manipulates people because it's in his blood...he enjoys it...and because, whoever it was that raised him on the Island simply raised him that way--to be a manipulator.

Thank you!! That is what got me too. Why did Ben say that (something like) "there's no way I can ask him to do the surgery"? Something like that. If Ben and company would have just walked over and asked, Jack would have done it. That was the most perplexing thing to me about it all. We knew Ben is manipulative, now it is confirmed that he took the three to get Jack to operate. That is not shocking news. I still don't get why Ben wouldn't just ask.:confused: .

Juliet's reaction has been questioned by some people. Why is she going along with it? Why does she not act surprised? I think that she just hopes that Ben's plan might be able to help her get home somehow. She, more than anyone else, knows that the truth that Ben tells you, is not the truth that actually happens. Perhaps, she felt that she could win Jack to her side.

I disagree completely! Ben finding what Jack was emotionally invested in and exploiting it I believe was using Juliet to get to him - a woman he once remarked looks very similar to his ex-wife. After rewatching the Pearl scene it seems to me like Juliet was saying "So we grab Jack IN ADDITION to the two we already were going to get". More proof:

- Juliet did not know how Ben was planning on getting Jack to agree to do the surgery.
- Ben says the way to get Jack to agree is to "find out what he's emotionally invested in and exploit it"

Note that Ben says "find out" as in he doesn't yet know what it it is, and yet Juliet already knows they are going to need to get Kate and Sawyer too.

Thank you!! That is what got me too. Why did Ben say that (something like) "there's no way I can ask him to do the surgery"? Something like that. If Ben and company would have just walked over and asked, Jack would have done it. That was the most perplexing thing to me about it all. We knew Ben is manipulative, now it is confirmed that he took the three to get Jack to operate. That is not shocking news. I still don't get why Ben wouldn't just ask. .

Ok again....they had Ethan previously (this was mentioned by Ben or Juliet) so he probably would have done the surgery. They needed Claire's baby for whatever reason and had already sent Ethan off to find out info and eventually kidnap Claire...who do you think we're dealing with here. These are not the good guys and Ben said point blank that he manipulates people. Obviously he would never risk his position of power by waving a white flag. So again...Ethan already with losties...already kidnapped Claire - after this event there isn't a chance in you know what that he would operate on Ben if asked. Before this even they probably didn't need Jack to operate not to mention what kind of people they are. Ok got it??? ;) No offense meant at all, just trying to explain again. I don't understand how people are missing this. :undecide:

I disagree completely! Ben finding what Jack was emotionally invested in and exploiting it I believe was using Juliet to get to him - a woman he once remarked looks very similar to his ex-wife. After rewatching the Pearl scene it seems to me like Juliet was saying "So we grab Jack IN ADDITION to the two we already were going to get". More proof:

- Juliet did not know how Ben was planning on getting Jack to agree to do the surgery.
- Ben says the way to get Jack to agree is to "find out what he's emotionally invested in and exploit it"

Note that Ben says "find out" as in he doesn't yet know what it it is, and yet Juliet already knows they are going to need to get Kate and Sawyer too.

Good point here, I hadn't even thought of it from that angle...you make an excellent observation here.

It just doesn't make any sense to me when all he really had to do was go and ask Jack. He could have pretended he wasn't part of the child-kidnapping Others -- could have said he was part of Dharma, but he and his group had been abandoned there years ago

Heck, they wouldn't even had to "pretend" anything. After the plane crash, the Others head over and introduce themselves (if they want, they can even keep most details hidden). Help out the crash survivors. Make friends with everyone. After a few days of the survivors and the Others partying on Wacky Island, Ben asked Jack to help him out. Who the heck would NOT want to help out someone who came to their aid after a disaster like that?

Unfortunately, it appears that all the "mystery" stuff of season 1 was written with no thought of what was to come next. Then they introduce these "Others" and try to "force" the two plot elements into each other.

The whole point about the triangle is manipulating Jack so that he *wants* to save Ben's life.

If Ben had just asked Jack nicely he would have done it. If they had pointed a gun at Kate's head, Jack would have done it. But in both cases he wouldn't *want* to do it.

That's why Jack has to be persuaded to let go of Kate because of her relationship with Sawyer, and he has to become *invested* in Juliet enough to begin to cooperate with the Others. Only then would he be in a position to begin to want to save the life of one of them.

And why does he have to *want* to do it? Because that's the way the Island works.
The only way the island will heal Ben is if someone wants it badly enough.

Think about NIP ... Jack is struggling to bring Ben's op back under control, and then he speaks to Kate on the walkie. As he relives the incident he told her about, he's reliving how he felt at the time and his desire to save the girl. At the same point in the story as Jack saves the girl's life, Ben's condition stabilises and Jack saves Ben's life. Coincidence? I think not.

Ben knows how the island works, and he knew that in order to save his life an elaborate plan was necessary to produce the right emotional reaction from Jack.

Let me just point this out one more time...

The others do not appear to be the cooperative happy clappy type...they obviously had reasons to kidnap the "good" people and get them away from everyone else...they didn't want the "flawed" ones until they lost Ethan - Ethan was their doctor!!!!! They made a point of saying that. They didn't even need Jack until they lost their doctor.

So again OTHERS NOT GOOD PEOPLE - KIDNAPPINIG - MANIPULATIVE PEOPLE - excuse me for yelling but I feel like people are not listening...just posting more about why/why/why without listening to what I and numerous others have said about ten times each here. :) Not bashing, just wish some of you would read our posts about this.

If they didn't know where they were going in S1 then what was the whole Ethan storyline...sometimes you just have to sit back and enjoy the show. :biggrin:

The whole point about the triangle is manipulating Jack so that he *wants* to save Ben's life.

If Ben had just asked Jack nicely he would have done it. If they had pointed a gun at Kate's head, Jack would have done it. But in both cases he wouldn't *want* to do it.

That's why Jack has to be persuaded to let go of Kate because of her relationship with Sawyer, and he has to become *invested* in Juliet enough to begin to cooperate with the Others. Only then would he be in a position to begin to want to save the life of one of them.

And why does he have to *want* to do it? Because that's the way the Island works.
The only way the island will heal Ben is if someone wants it badly enough.

Think about NIP ... Jack is struggling to bring Ben's op back under control, and then he speaks to Kate on the walkie. As he relives the incident he told her about, he's reliving how he felt at the time and his desire to save the girl. At the same point in the story as Jack saves the girl's life, Ben's condition stabilises and Jack saves Ben's life. Coincidence? I think not.

Ben knows how the island works, and he knew that in order to save his life an elaborate plan was necessary to produce the right emotional reaction from Jack.

I like your analysis. Well thought out. It would explain a lot, the manipulation to get the losties to do certain things and to want to do them or they would not happen. Jack had to want to do the surgery because, if he was forced, Ben would have died even if Jack did a skilled job. Add to it the "box", your wishes coming true, and the actions of the Others becomes a little clearer. They are not being sneaky and conning people because they have anything to hide or are bad people. They HAVE to do those things or, as the woman said to Desmond in his dream/flashback, we're all dead. If this concept is correct, the Others, who may have found themselves an idealic life on the island, were confounded when the plane crashed and all the untrained losties would begin making things happen in the box accidentally. The Others took the kids to save them from the losties wishing things out of the box unknowingly or to keep the kids from creating things in the box, such as the monster after the crash. They also took "good" people since they could be trained to live with the Others and use the box wisely. Jack may be one they now consider trustable. Other Losties, like Locke, Sayid and Kate, must be manipulated so the things they accidentally create out of the box do not kill any of the Others or are less harmless. It explains the sonic fence, to keep out monsters created by people. I don't necessarily mean smokey, but polar bears, horses, and other things losties have been around when they materialized.

Another example, Ben's attempts to manipulate Locke when he wanted to blow up the sub may have resulted in Locke not blowing up the sub but instead hiding it as some have argued. Ben had to get Locke to not want to blow up the sub. And Ben is good at this because he must make people do things because they want to do them or they won't happen. And Ben's been on the island since he was born so has learned the technique better than the recruits. This also enforces the idea that Hurley's gains by winning the lottery were naturally destroyed (meteors, fire, etc). Hurley used the power of the island by using the numbers (and opened the box accidentally) and created these things. They are not lasting. Hmmm, I'll need to mull this over more, but it makes a lot of sense and explains more than a few things. I think you may have the answer, or a big piece of it.

One other thing. I'm still struggling as to why patchy thanked Locke for pushing him into the sonic fence. Maybe the only way out of the island is to die but it cannot be at your own hands. Sort of like hoping the player in a game you are playing dies so you can get out of a boring game but the rules of the game do not allow suicide. If the island is a place where dreams, good and bad, become reality and Ben must work to manipulate people to keep the power under control, it must really be a hellish place to live, always worried about what you're thinking or what the other guy is thinking. Now, who wished Ben would get the tumor?

Great thought. You got my mind rolling!

Because Alex stated last week that Ben manipulates people into doing what he wants, and making them think it was their own idea.

Ben is regarded by the Others as the master manipulator of people, and doing something as crude as holding a gun to Kate would destroy that image.

the Others, who may have found themselves an idealic life on the island, were confounded when the plane crashed and all the untrained losties would begin making things happen in the box accidentally. The Others took the kids to save them from the losties wishing things out of the box unknowingly or to keep the kids from creating things in the box, such as the monster after the crash. They also took "good" people since they could be trained to live with the Others and use the box wisely.

Jack may be one they now consider trustable. Other Losties, like Locke, Sayid and Kate, must be manipulated so the things they accidentally create out of the box do not kill any of the Others or are less harmless. It explains the sonic fence, to keep out monsters created by people. I don't necessarily mean smokey, but polar bears, horses, and other things losties have been around when they materialized.

Another example, Ben's attempts to manipulate Locke when he wanted to blow up the sub may have resulted in Locke not blowing up the sub but instead hiding it as some have argued. Ben had to get Locke to not want to blow up the sub. And Ben is good at this because he must make people do things because they want to do them or they won't happen. And Ben's been on the island since he was born so has learned the technique better than the recruits. This also enforces the idea that Hurley's gains by winning the lottery were naturally destroyed (meteors, fire, etc). Hurley used the power of the island by using the numbers (and opened the box accidentally) and created these things. They are not lasting. Hmmm, I'll need to mull this over more, but it makes a lot of sense and explains more than a few things. I think you may have the answer, or a big piece of it.

One other thing. I'm still struggling as to why patchy thanked Locke for pushing him into the sonic fence. Maybe the only way out of the island is to die but it cannot be at your own hands. Sort of like hoping the player in a game you are playing dies so you can get out of a boring game but the rules of the game do not allow suicide. If the island is a place where dreams, good and bad, become reality and Ben must work to manipulate people to keep the power under control, it must really be a hellish place to live, always worried about what you're thinking or what the other guy is thinking. Now, who wished Ben would get the tumor?

Great thought. You got my mind rolling!

And you've got me thinking too!

This ability that the island has to make things happen is obviously very powerful. You have to be very careful what you wish for. Or maybe you don't even have to conciously wish for it .... as long as the idea is there the island can pick up on it and make it happen.

And I think you're right that training is the key - otherwise the whole thing would be out of control and you'd have weird unexplainable coincidences happening all the time - which is *exactly* what happened after the Losties arrived!

The weird things that are happening on the island are because the Losties are untrained, and that's why so many of these incidents are connected with their past and their memories. This could explain the Others' paranoia about who exactly was on the plane. Maybe all the Others are trying to do is bring things back under control.

It just occurred to me .... maybe room 23 is not some barbaric form of torture, but actually a way to train people, part of a way to discipline the mind. Maybe Karl was causing all kinds of weird stuff to happen, and he was unwilling or unable to bring it under control. You can understand why that would be seen as a very serious matter, they would have to be very strict about any lack of control.

Hmmmmmmm .... gotta think some more about this.

I guess this is a good enough time for my first post.

Look at her first comment. "He's cute." This was Ben giving Juliet her first view of Jack. He was showing her who her target was. This was supposed to be long and drawn out.

It's not just a triangle. Ben was making it a square. The key was to to pull Jack away from Kate and push him into Juliet. She bears some resemblance to his wife. She was to be sympathetic. She has medical training (common ground). And for Jack to make the move, Ben needed Sawyer.

If Sawyer isn't taken as well, Jack would never feel betrayed by Kate or the desire to let her go. Remember, he didn't immediately agree to the chance to go home or to Kate's original pleadings. They needed Sawyer and Kate together to push Jack to Juliet, and then to want to save Ben. Ben manipulates and he likes to do it so thoroughly he will take the time to do so and make the manipulated feel it was his idea.

Anyway, that is my humble opinion.

SmG
I think you are spot on there!

I disagree completely! Ben finding what Jack was emotionally invested in and exploiting it I believe was using Juliet to get to him - a woman he once remarked looks very similar to his ex-wife. After rewatching the Pearl scene it seems to me like Juliet was saying "So we grab Jack IN ADDITION to the two we already were going to get". More proof:

- Juliet did not know how Ben was planning on getting Jack to agree to do the surgery.
- Ben says the way to get Jack to agree is to "find out what he's emotionally invested in and exploit it"

Note that Ben says "find out" as in he doesn't yet know what it it is, and yet Juliet already knows they are going to need to get Kate and Sawyer too.

Long time lurker, first-time poster here...

I interpreted these two quotes differently. With Ben's quote, I think he was just reminding Juliet of what his standard operating procedure is - finding out what people are emotionally invested in and exploit it. This didn't mean that he still had to figure it out - Jack was Ben's main target, and Ben already knew what Jack was emotionally invested in (both his ex-wife and Kate), so that's why he wanted Kate and Sawyer "in addition" to Jack. And as others have stated, Juliet's resemblance to Jack's ex-wife, sets up the "square" that Ben is manipulating to get Jack to do the surgery.

Regarding Juliet's line......earlier in the scene she had said to Ben something like "So that's Jack?" and then later came her line about taking Jack, Kate and Sawyer. To me that meant she already knew that Ben's plan was to take all 3 of them, so she knew Ben wanted Jack to do the surgery.

One aspect of that scene that struck me as odd (hopefully this hasn't been discussed elsewhere yet) - if the Others were able to obtain so much information about Jack, it seems like somewhere in his file there would have been a picture or two. And presumably Juliet would have seen Jack's file (being that she's a doctor, I'd expect Ben may have shown her Jack's file to get her opinion on his qualifications to operate on Ben). So it seem like she should have known what Jack looked like before that scene.

Heck, they wouldn't even had to "pretend" anything. After the plane crash, the Others head over and introduce themselves (if they want, they can even keep most details hidden). Help out the crash survivors. Make friends with everyone. After a few days of the survivors and the Others partying on Wacky Island, Ben asked Jack to help him out. Who the heck would NOT want to help out someone who came to their aid after a disaster like that?

Unfortunately, it appears that all the "mystery" stuff of season 1 was written with no thought of what was to come next. Then they introduce these "Others" and try to "force" the two plot elements into each other.
The Others are/were clearly suspicious of the Losties, so there is no way they would have just waltzted up and said, hey do you fancy performing life threatning surgery on our leader, before watching them and trying to suss them out
100%
And you've got me thinking too!

This ability that the island has to make things happen is obviously very powerful. You have to be very careful what you wish for. Or maybe you don't even have to conciously wish for it .... as long as the idea is there the island can pick up on it and make it happen.

And I think you're right that training is the key - otherwise the whole thing would be out of control and you'd have weird unexplainable coincidences happening all the time - which is *exactly* what happened after the Losties arrived!

The weird things that are happening on the island are because the Losties are untrained, and that's why so many of these incidents are connected with their past and their memories. This could explain the Others' paranoia about who exactly was on the plane. Maybe all the Others are trying to do is bring things back under control.

It just occurred to me .... maybe room 23 is not some barbaric form of torture, but actually a way to train people, part of a way to discipline the mind. Maybe Karl was causing all kinds of weird stuff to happen, and he was unwilling or unable to bring it under control. You can understand why that would be seen as a very serious matter, they would have to be very strict about any lack of control.

Hmmmmmmm .... gotta think some more about this.
I think you may well be right there Lisa - good thinking!

Ok again....they had Ethan previously (this was mentioned by Ben or Juliet) so he probably would have done the surgery. They needed Claire's baby for whatever reason and had already sent Ethan off to find out info and eventually kidnap Claire...who do you think we're dealing with here. These are not the good guys and Ben said point blank that he manipulates people. Obviously he would never risk his position of power by waving a white flag. So again...Ethan already with losties...already kidnapped Claire - after this event there isn't a chance in you know what that he would operate on Ben if asked. Before this even they probably didn't need Jack to operate not to mention what kind of people they are. Ok got it??? ;) No offense meant at all, just trying to explain again. I don't understand how people are missing this. :undecide:


And why does he have to say that?
He could simply have approached them and said we are a group of scientists that also live on this Island, i understand you've have some bad experiences with other groups of people living here, but thats not us.
Easy.
But Ben is too much of a manipulator to do that, he doesn't consider the Losties as worthy human beings he can negotiate with, he just wants to take it.

Holding a gun to Kate's head is also useless, this is a complicated surgery, as Ben said to Jack, "I want you to WANT to save me!"
Seems to me his long plan was kinda shot to hell when Jack saw those X-rays.

Also, im pretty sure they already knew about the triangle with Kate, Jack and Sawyer.
After all Tom had been down to this hatch before, probably observing them, as it seemed to me he was given the task of handling the Losties after Ethan died.
Knowing this, they knew they wanted to grab all three to exploit that, but Ben still wants to know what Jack is TRULY invested in.


-Exodus

What if the the Others were going to introduce Sawyer to Locke's dad later, but things got screwed up and they didn't get the chance so they used Locke?

/just askin

And why does he have to say that?
He could simply have approached them and said we are a group of scientists that also live on this Island, i understand you've have some bad experiences with other groups of people living here, but thats not us.
Easy.
But Ben is too much of a manipulator to do that, he doesn't consider the Losties as worthy human beings he can negotiate with, he just wants to take it.


By this time the losties were already so on edge about the others, they wouldn't have believed him anyway...and probably would have taken him captive...oh wait they did do that. And I believe you reiterated what I said in your last few lines there...in a different way of course. :cool:

I still don't believe the others are good people but I do like the theories that have come out in the last few days about trying to control the losties and the magic box...as long as we are talking metaphorically here and you aren't thinking there's a real box. :)

I still think that the key to the whole thing lies in that fact that Jack has to 'want' to do the op.

There are a dozen ways that Ben could force Jack to do it. The fact that he has to want to do it is what's important.

ITA. Plus, Ben is the "leader" of the Others, and Jack is the "leader" of the Losties (I'm putting those in "" because it's just how I think it's supposed to be seen), so for Ben to break Jack - where he never wanted to return to the Losties - some of who owe their life to him, would be one more trick in Ben's corner. One - the Losties have no doctor, and two, Ben had the upper hand on Jack, in a way. That wasn't why he didn't just have a gun to Kate's head, he wants to always be the one in charge and it would be better if Jack felt he had nothing. Ben would "win", for lack of a better word.

I agree. Ben wanted his people to see that the leader of the Losties wanted to operate on him. He was that worthy/powerful a person that his "enemy" wanted -even volunteered- to help him. That is the perception Ben wanted to give to his community. And I don't think Ben intended to let Sawyer and Kate go afterwards. I think he planned to keep them indefinitely on Hydra island. That is why he went to all the trouble to control Sawyer and stop his escape attempts. If they want Sawyer to tow the line they point the gun at Kate, if they want Kate to tow the line they point the gun at Sawyer.

I think Ben was smart enought to realize he had lost his hold over Juliet (she was no longer emotionally invested in him). If, in her role as good cop, Ben could get Juliet as emotionally invested in Jack as he was to be in her, then he could regain control of Juliet too. Then Jack would want to stay with the Others rather than leave Juliet behind and Juliet would want to stay rather than leave Jack behind.

If, in her role as good cop, Ben could get Juliet as emotionally invested in Jack as he was to be in her, then he could regain control of Juliet too.

Absolutely. Good point.

Here's the thing. If they knew Jack soooooo well, then they'd know he WOULD have done the surgery, if Ben had just played nice and asked!!!!

Why didn't the Others introduce themselves, help out the Losties, and then Jack would have GLADLY done the surgery?

I agree. Ben wanted his people to see that the leader of the Losties wanted to operate on him. He was that worthy/powerful a person that his "enemy" wanted -even volunteered- to help him. That is the perception Ben wanted to give to his community. And I don't think Ben intended to let Sawyer and Kate go afterwards. I think he planned to keep them indefinitely on Hydra island. That is why he went to all the trouble to control Sawyer and stop his escape attempts. If they want Sawyer to tow the line they point the gun at Kate, if they want Kate to tow the line they point the gun at Sawyer.


If he was going to keep Kate and Sawyer there, then why did he say "the next two weeks are going to be very unpleasant" to Kate??

Here's the thing. If they knew Jack soooooo well, then they'd know he WOULD have done the surgery, if Ben had just played nice and asked!!!!


I'm not going into the whole big explanation of this again...but Ben and some of the others don't play this way and they technically didn't need Jack until Ethan died. There are many answers to this question if you do a search.

After rewatching the Pearl scene it seems to me like Juliet was saying "So we grab Jack IN ADDITION to the two we already were going to get". More proof:

- Juliet did not know how Ben was planning on getting Jack to agree to do the surgery.
- Ben says the way to get Jack to agree is to "find out what he's emotionally invested in and exploit it"

Note that Ben says "find out" as in he doesn't yet know what it it is, and yet Juliet already knows they are going to need to get Kate and Sawyer too.

The whole point about the triangle is manipulating Jack so that he *wants* to save Ben's life.

If Ben had just asked Jack nicely he would have done it. If they had pointed a gun at Kate's head, Jack would have done it. But in both cases he wouldn't *want* to do it.

That's why Jack has to be persuaded to let go of Kate because of her relationship with Sawyer, and he has to become *invested* in Juliet enough to begin to cooperate with the Others. Only then would he be in a position to begin to want to save the life of one of them.

And why does he have to *want* to do it? Because that's the way the Island works.
The only way the island will heal Ben is if someone wants it badly enough.

Think about NIP ... Jack is struggling to bring Ben's op back under control, and then he speaks to Kate on the walkie. As he relives the incident he told her about, he's reliving how he felt at the time and his desire to save the girl. At the same point in the story as Jack saves the girl's life, Ben's condition stabilises and Jack saves Ben's life. Coincidence? I think not.

Ben knows how the island works, and he knew that in order to save his life an elaborate plan was necessary to produce the right emotional reaction from Jack.

I agree with both of these theories and don't actually think they are in conflict with eachother.

So kate and sawyer were initially put on the list for purposes other than the surgery.
--pickett's quote, "shepard wasn't even on jacob's list" supports this.
--The fact that sawyer was so mesmerized by the video in room 23 suggests to me that he's been shown it before (we don't know what happened to him while kate was away begging jack to do the surgery--but earlier that day pickett had told sawyer he wouldn't be working with kate that day, so they had something in mind for him...).
--also they went to such great lengths to con sawyer with the whole rabbit/pacemaker thing, so i really think he is of greater importance than just "a control on kate to control jack."

so most likely they needed sawyer for whatever jacob's purpose might have been. kate was added to the list to help control sawyer.

and then ben realized jack's also emotionally invested in kate, so she's a twoferone kinda deal--she works as leverage on sawyer for jacob's purposes but ALSO as leverage on jack for ben's purposes. ben needed jack to WANT to save him because there is more chance that the island will help to heal him that way...

and don't forget that ben initally had some different plan for manipulating jack that was ruined when jack caught sight of the x-ray (when juliette brought him to help with colleen's failed operation). Probably ben's original plan that would have taken two weeks to work (since two weeks was referenced so often). but then jack saw the x-ray, figured out that ben was the one with the tumor, and told ben he had less than a week to live so everything was changed around.

so what we saw play out was not the original plan ben had when he captured them all. and i think it is ridiculous to think that ben would brought them to lostcatraz and planned on kate being able to climb out of her cage and not trying to escape but instead going to have sex with sawyer which would have been seen by jack on the moniters, and so forth. it's just plain coincidence that all happened and that ben was able to still twist things to his desired result. but it wasn't ben's inital plan at all.

klughs - a couple of weeks ago I would have disputed Sawyer's importance, but now I have to agree with you. Knowing that Cooper is on the island sheds a whole new light on things.

I REALLY like the thought that the others are not just going to do things to the losties all the time, but that sometimes they want the people to want things done themselves. I'm also reminded of the Others keeping Claire for a long time and waiting for her to agree to give her baby to them. Hence that bizarre and creepy attatchment she seemed to form with Ethan. I think they play with memories and relationships in a way that is going to confuse people into doing excactly what they want. Sure they could have killed Claire on the spot and taken the unborn baby (she was definitely far enough along even on her first day on the island where if Aaron had been "born" prematurely, he probably would survive), and likewise could have put a gun against Kate's head and said "Do surgery, doc.", but I think that it's all about the con. Not surprising that they've got Locke's dad. Prior to the failsafe-purple-sky event I think the Others could have taken their superior technology, transportation, and weapons and just done whatever they felt like, similarly to how they just grabbed Walt off the boat. However in many situations, they would rather the person want to do what they want them to do. I think conning is a HUGE HUGE deal for the others...fake beards anyone?

I'm also reminded of the Others keeping Claire for a long time and waiting for her to agree to give her baby to them.

Thanks for that - I had completely forgotten about the importance they placed on it being Claire's choice to give them the baby.
It all ties in with the fact that people have to really want things to happen - that's the way the island works.

Thanks for that - I had completely forgotten about the importance they placed on it being Claire's choice to give them the baby.
It all ties in with the fact that people have to really want things to happen - that's the way the island works.
yes, very interesting. when you think about it that way, then the whole brainwashing video also seems to make sense as a last resort solution to make someone WANT to do something. extreme methods, but it does seem to have that same purpose as the result...

also, the children and cindy appear to WANT to be with the Others now.. we certainly dont know enough information about how that came to be, but that seems to be the case.

The only person that the Others never seemed to have succeeded in making WANT to do what the Others wanted was Walt... he always wanted to escape and be with his father. and ultimately he did...

sorry for the stream of thought posting... interesting topic though...

I've just realised the implications of what happened to Claire.....

Whether you believe that the Others want people to want to do things because it's their way, or whether you think (as I do) that they have to do things that way because that's how the island works, it has one major implication:
If it's the case that they could only take Aaron if that's what Claire wanted, then it had to be the same for Rousseau. If it's true for Claire then there is no way they could have taken Alex from Danielle against her will.

The Others have been consistent about people having to *want* to do things, there's this whole theme running through the show about free will. It doesn't make sense that it would be one rule for Claire and a different one for Rousseau.
OK, they may have tricked Danielle, or conned her in some way, but I'm pretty sure that they wouldn't or *couldn't* take Alex by force.

I've just realised the implications of what happened to Claire.....

Whether you believe that the Others want people to want to do things because it's their way, or whether you think (as I do) that they have to do things that way because that's how the island works, it has one major implication:
If it's the case that they could only take Aaron if that's what Claire wanted, then it had to be the same for Rousseau. If it's true for Claire then there is no way they could have taken Alex from Danielle against her will.

The Others have been consistent about people having to *want* to do things, there's this whole theme running through the show about free will. It doesn't make sense that it would be one rule for Claire and a different one for Rousseau.
OK, they may have tricked Danielle, or conned her in some way, but I'm pretty sure that they wouldn't or *couldn't* take Alex by force.

right. very cool implication!
oh. wait. but they did take walt by force. and the tailie children by force....
i dunno...

right. very cool implication!
oh. wait. but they did take walt by force. and the tailie children by force....
i dunno...

Oh yeah ....

Maybe the the idea was to take them and then influence them in some way so that they wanted to stay - this is what they did with Cindy and the tailies. It obviously didn't work with Walt because he was emotionally invested in his dad - surely they should have seen that?

Ben even does this with his own people - recruits them and then influences them to make them want to stay ... in TMFT he said that many of his people weren't fully committed yet, and he needed the sub so they thought they could leave any time they wanted.

In the case of Aaron and Alex, it could be that they were too young to be able to make their own decision, so their mother had to make it for them.

I have to admit I had forgotten about the Claire/Ethan bond...and yes that makes total sense. Nice posts...hopefully this will end the "why didn't they just ask Jack questions"

One problem I have with the "Claire wanting to give up her baby" theory is that Claire was under the influence of.......something. During the flashbacks with Ethan she seemed very loopy, like she was drunk or drugged or something. Yes, the Others wanted her to make the decision to give her baby to them, but she wasn't in a sound frame of mind when she made that decision. That makes it seem like they were sort of cheating, and not being true to the plan of getting a person to do something of their own free will, if that makes sense.

True.

But Claire had already decided to give up the baby before she arrived in the island. It makes me wonder about Malkin's connection in all this - how convenient that the pregnant girl who arrives on the island has already made that decision.

True.

But Claire had already decided to give up the baby before she arrived in the island. It makes me wonder about Malkin's connection in all this - how convenient that the pregnant girl who arrives on the island has already made that decision.
Good point. Malkin may very well have some connection to the Others and knew exactly what would happen if Claire got on the plane. However, in Claire's mind, she was on that plane so she can give the baby to a couple in Los Angeles. I'm not sure that her desire to give up the baby would be such that she'd give it to just anyone, at least not if she were in her right frame of mind.

That may be true - but she was happy to fly half-way around the world to give the baby to a couple that she knew nothing about, just because Malkin told her to.

That's another good point. I suppose anyone who acts on the advice of a psychic isn't in the best frame of mind to begin with (no offense to anyone who acts on the advice of a psychic)

One problem I have with the "Claire wanting to give up her baby" theory is that Claire was under the influence of.......something. During the flashbacks with Ethan she seemed very loopy, like she was drunk or drugged or something. Yes, the Others wanted her to make the decision to give her baby to them, but she wasn't in a sound frame of mind when she made that decision. That makes it seem like they were sort of cheating, and not being true to the plan of getting a person to do something of their own free will, if that makes sense.

true. claire was definitely drugged. but i think that implies that free will is less important to the nature of the island (or the nature of the metaphorical box) than the desire for a certain outcome. how that desire came about is apparently irrelevant... what's necessary is simply that the desire is there.

or at least the Others appear to think and act on this premise.

the whole brainwashing sequence reinforces this idea that the Others have no qualm about "cheating" to make someone want what they'd like them to want. (insert clever comment about ends justifying means...)

After all, darlton did mention a couple podcasts ago that by the end of the season we'd be seeing the Others in a much darker light again...

Ends justifying the means makes sense when you think about Ben saying to Juliet the same way I get everything - find out what makes them tick and then exploit it - or however he said it - I am terrible with quotes - but the idea being that the Others or atleast BEN doesn't seem to have any issues cheating to get what he wants

Ends justifying the means makes sense when you think about Ben saying to Juliet the same way I get everything - find out what makes them tick and then exploit it...

I think Ben was also telling Juliet (and the viewers) that he wouldn't hesitate to do the same to her....which makes sense if you think about Juliet finding a way to get into the Lostaway camp last week.

Juliet's an intelligent woman and she is well aware of the way Ben works, so she would be very foolish to actually fall for one of his little schemes. That's why I find it far more feasible that she is an active participant in whats going on.