I think that a ton of fans are being very hypocritical Lost watchers. As devoted Lost fans (which all of us here at the Fuselage are), we take the show pretty seriously. We invest time in these characters, and we actually connect emotionally with them and want to see them grow and progress. That is what makes it so satisfying when we see Kate and Jack reunited, and so devastating when we see Michael murder Libby and Ana Lucia. The fact that this connection exists between viewer and character reveals that the characters are (to a certain degree) real to us, not just pointless works of fiction. Therefore, I think it is atrocious for anyone to be happy about what occurred at the end of the episode- that was downright disturbing. None of us should revel in the murder of anyone, becuase death is a terrible thing. They were buried alive. Whether or not you liked them, they were just as real of characters as Kate or Claire or Sayid, and we can't pick and choose who's life actually matters on the island. How can some characters be real if other characters are viewed as throwaway annoyances? Either everyone's real and we invest in them emotionally, or everyone is just an insignificant work of fiction who we should feel nothing for. We can't have it both ways- that would be hypocritical.

I was happy.. not because Nikki and Paulo died, but because I think it was a devilishly brilliant piece of writing. Let's have Charlie and Hurley, the Abbot and Costello of the Island whom we've come to know as the innocent comedic relief, bury these two people who are in fact STILL ALIVE.. and in doing so inadvertently murder them.

How sickeningly awesome. Bravo.

Although if Pablo bursts out of the ground and screams, "THIS IS SPARTAAA!" I won't complain.

probably because you need to get to know people before you can cry for them... I'm not trying to be mean here but even though i hate to see anyone die... when i hear about someone losing their life in a far away land whom i will never know it just doesn't impact in the way that losing someone close to me will.

It's good that life is this way or I'd be crying my eyes out all day long every day of my life. This is not good either.

I agree with y'all, and believe me I didn't like them, but I just found it unfair that when they died the reaction is good "those con artist murderers deserved to die." Would people say the same about Kate or Sawyer? I don't think so.

To be fair, we didn't get a chance to know them. Anything about them we found out in tonight's episode. So how are we supposed to feel any attachment to them?

I was happy at the end, not because they got buried alive, but because the episode was over. :rolleyes:

... Whether or not you liked them, they were just as real of characters as Kate or Claire or Sayid, and we can't pick and choose who's life actually matters on the island. How can some characters be real if other characters are viewed as throwaway annoyances? Either everyone's real and we invest in them emotionally, or everyone is just an insignificant work of fiction who we should feel nothing for. We can't have it both ways- that would be hypocritical.

We can't pick and choose the guilty vs the innocent? Why that's the very nature of the concept of JUSTICE! The sane people MUST pick and choose!

You might as well say we can't pick and choose who we marry.

Don

It was sick and shocking. That's why it was awesome. I don't think it's disturbing to enjoy a fictional character being killed in a totally freakish and rattling way. It was awesome writing.

Now, I know what you are getting at by pinpointing the "THANK GOD THEY ARE DEAD" crowd, but the *way* they died was incredible. Buried alive. I just kept thinking "holy crap" when Paulo was paralyzed because I knew right then they were both totally alive, and about to be buried alive.

Aweome way to end an episode of two very disliked characters - not because "yay they are dead" but because of how it unraveled.

We didn't choose for them to be buried alive - Nikki is responsible - her actions caused her and Paulo to be paralized - no one could have known that on the island since she was too busy hiding the diamonds instead of seeking help - two things
one if she hadn't been greedy it wouldn't have happened thus she wouldn't be buried alive
two if she went straight for help she would have had time to tell them she was bit and paralized NOT dead -
The fans didn't kill them or get them buried alive - it was the choices that Nikki and Paulo made that ended them up where they were -
Now we grow from that - and who knows they may be back - Vincent could dig them up before they die!

I agree with y'all, and believe me I didn't like them, but I just found it unfair that when they died the reaction is good "those con artist murderers deserved to die." Would people say the same about Kate or Sawyer? I don't think so.

Are you trying to say:
1. People who do wrong things don't have extenuating circumstances for their actions? That would make justice robotic and non-human. We were not shown Paulo and Nikki's reasons for what they did, so as of right now, if we never are shown onscreen what reasons they had for their crime, then they are negative characters. Trying to make up a backstory where they have extenuating circumstances is a one way ticket to fantasy land.
2. I don't consider either Kate or Sawyer to be positive characters. I think both of them are trouble. It's painfully visible that Sawyer's battling his demons. Kate seems to pretend they never happened.

Don

Cry me a river...:29:

There hasn't been any character development with either of these people, and now that we have a little background on them we find out that they murdered someone else; stole 8 million dollars worth of diamonds and apparently got away with it.

And, I suspect that Paulo was right...Nikki would have left him, or even killed him if he had told her that he had found the diamonds.

She was one cold "black widow".

It's poetic justice.

I was happy to see them go. One, as others have said, that was a brilliant twist at the end. Two, well... we never did get to know them. Even with the other characters we didn't have as long like Ana-Lucia and Libby, they had a backstory and life and a connection with other people... Nikki and Paulo were just there. Because they were "throwaway" for the most part, we don't care about them, and in fact, are rather delighted at the sick way they perished, which was totally brought on by themselves. It seemed much more satisfying, if I can use that word, than other deaths, because we're not so emotionally attached to them.

This is a fictional show about fictional characters. I dont feel a bit bad about being glad that Nikki & Paulo came to a grusome end, any more than I shed a single tear when Anna Lucia got blown away. This isn't like we're watching a documentary, or the 6:00 news! I dont think of them as real life people. (Although, to be fair, I'd be VERY upset & go into a long period of mourning, if they killed off Locke!)

I was happy at the end, not because they got buried alive, but because the episode was over. :rolleyes:

Amen!

I think I watch movies and television on two levels. On one level, I empathize with the characters and choose favorites. At another level, I realize they are just characters. There's an interplay between the levels. Burying cold-hearted poisoners alive by mistake----brilliant!

I'll admit it- I didn't like Nikki and Paulo, I wanted them off the show. I don't think this episode made up for their presence and what the intention was behind their sudden appearance. But I was chilled to the bone at the end of the episode. It was very Hitchcockian or to go a bit further back, Poe.

But the bottom line is- no matter how much time I invest in this show, I realize that this is a story, not real life so I feel no shame wishing for a character's demise. I'm sure everyone has wanted a villian in a film or a book to get their comupance. And to distinguish the two-I felt no disdain for the actors, in fact, I feel bad for them- it can't be easy not getting a good reception from fans, especially when they weren't introduced as "bad guys" that people are supposed to hate.

I think the ending was fitting. We saw that these people were deceptive backstabbers, so there was an ironic sort of terrifying justice about it.

first off ... u sure theyre gonna die? ... probably but u sure? ... second .. i think most ppl disagree with you ... libby sucked glad shes dead, and the same goes for these two toolbags ... cmon no one really liked them so why not whack em good and make an exciting evil ending to the episode ... this is one of the few off-topic episodes i enjoyed ... among others, hurley and his stupid cheech marin car was retarded ... i think the point is to show that on this islad you get what u deserve, and the island and the monster test you and decide what your fate is ... they so deserved that death ... so dont say its hypocritcal

first off ... u sure theyre gonna die? ... probably but u sure? ... second .. i think most ppl disagree with you ... libby sucked glad shes dead, and the same goes for these two toolbags ... cmon no one really liked them so why not whack em good and make an exciting evil ending to the episode ... this is one of the few off-topic episodes i enjoyed ... among others, hurley and his stupid cheech marin car was retarded ... i think the point is to show that on this islad you get what u deserve, and the island and the monster test you and decide what your fate is ... they so deserved that death ... so dont say its hypocritcal



Couldn't agree more! Ring the dinner bell for the worms & let 'em rot real good! :twisted:

I think that a ton of fans are being very hypocritical Lost watchers. ....... Therefore, I think it is atrocious for anyone to be happy about what occurred at the end of the episode- that was downright disturbing. None of us should revel in the murder of anyone, becuase death is a terrible thing. They were buried alive. .

I agree with you. I dont agree with the description of hypocritical though. The word is sick. But its the nature of how some peoples minds work.

Just the way people talk about these 2 actors themselves shows how cruel some people are. They dont think for a moment that this is a person that may even go online to see if people appreciate their work only to find hateful things said about them.

probably because you need to get to know people before you can cry for them... I'm not trying to be mean here but even though i hate to see anyone die... when i hear about someone losing their life in a far away land whom i will never know it just doesn't impact in the way that losing someone close to me will.

It's good that life is this way or I'd be crying my eyes out all day long every day of my life. This is not good either.
Agreed I was like whoa when Mike killed Anna and Libby in the hatch, eko dies what the hell, boone in the plane not cool.. 2 characters that had a cupple of one liners come on they were not a big part of the show who care i hope they are dead they were a crappy pair anyway, and any good that came from them being on the show came today, and as for some others talking about realness of the characters how was anything about those two real? the striper thing was nice till the horrible b-acting that followed and i'm not just talking about the corny tv show with in the episode i mean they are both crappy actors.

I agree it was creepy they were buried alive. Prior to me saying anything more let me tell you this is my favorite show. BUT I have to say it's just a show. You seem to think that these characters are real people in a real situation...when it's just a show. The show is consisted of many characters which some will relate to and others will not.

When Anna Lucia was on the show I wanted to stop watching because her character was so awful...I was HAPPY to see her go (although was disappointed Michael was the one shooting her). Same situation here...people felt Nikki and Paulo hindered their LOST... experience so why shouldn't they be happy to see them go...even though I wish it were another way then that - just because it's creepy. But the Nikki & Paulo story, if you really think about it, was like a filler. If they're gone, they're gone - NO BIGGIE. Don't think so deep into it.

Hypocritical - a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles

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Most of us were completely outspoken about our complete and utter distaste for Pikki from day one. You wanna talk about "real characters"? I was completely emotionally wrapped up with Pikki... wrapped up in hate.

I actually thought Ana lucia was a way better character than these two, more believable, cold-blooded murderer, trigger happy, but considering what happened to her it was understandable. Oh and about the actors checking out their work, yeh i agree with you here. Everyone starts saying how crap they are at acting - which is unacceptable. They weren't given great material to start with until this episode, and by the time they were everyone thought it was too late for them anyway. I thought the actors were decent, and may go on to better things, but the way they were wrote in were terrible.

That's not to say i didn't like the episode, i thought it was good and well written, but i just thought the Pikki storyline in general, from the start of the season was badly written and introduced. It wasn't the actors fault i hated the characters, i blame Damon and Carlton.

Oh and whether or not they're dead? They're dead definitely, the disturbing music when the burying was taking place, the whole irony and sense of poetic justice added to their deaths was not accidental, they're dead plain and simple. If they're not i'll be extremely disappointed, but it's obvious that they intended to kill them.

I think that a ton of fans are being very hypocritical Lost watchers. As devoted Lost fans (which all of us here at the Fuselage are), we take the show pretty seriously. We invest time in these characters, and we actually connect emotionally with them and want to see them grow and progress. That is what makes it so satisfying when we see Kate and Jack reunited, and so devastating when we see Michael murder Libby and Ana Lucia. The fact that this connection exists between viewer and character reveals that the characters are (to a certain degree) real to us, not just pointless works of fiction. Therefore, I think it is atrocious for anyone to be happy about what occurred at the end of the episode- that was downright disturbing. None of us should revel in the murder of anyone, becuase death is a terrible thing. They were buried alive. Whether or not you liked them, they were just as real of characters as Kate or Claire or Sayid, and we can't pick and choose who's life actually matters on the island. How can some characters be real if other characters are viewed as throwaway annoyances? Either everyone's real and we invest in them emotionally, or everyone is just an insignificant work of fiction who we should feel nothing for. We can't have it both ways- that would be hypocritical.

I agree. I haven't been watching since Day 1 to not care about each character. I don't think the writers mean for us to not care as they certainly take great care with their characters. Lindeloff claimed even though those two are universally hated and I quote him - "We had a plan when we introduced them, and we didn't get to fully execute that plan. But when the plan is executed, Nikki and Paulo will be iconic characters on the show."

I just hope that whatever he meant by iconic will become clearer soon so we can all dispense with the ad nauseum 2nd guessing and the haters too.

if she went straight for help she would have had time to tell them she was bit and paralized NOT dead -

Excellent observation. She was still so damned concerned about useless rocks that she wasted precious time making sure no one else would find them. And let's not forget how she came to have them.

They are characters on a TV show. They are not real. They are not alive. Sure, characters represent real people but they are not real people.

I can empathize with what you're feeling; I'm a sensitive person, I tend to overanalyze things and feel things too much. This is totally not to be mean, but maybe a better use of your emotional energy would be spent learning about what's going on in Darfur (http://www.ushmm.org/conscience/alert/darfur/steidle/?gclid=COOgoM-NmosCFSULIgodkiOjSA) and spreading the word about that. Those are real people.

Hypocritical - a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles

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Most of us were completely outspoken about our complete and utter distaste for Pikki from day one. You wanna talk about "real characters"? I was completely emotionally wrapped up with Pikki... wrapped up in hate.

*APPLAUDES*

Vincent could dig them up before they die!

I really want Vincent to dig them up. He was trying to tell everyone that they weren't dead (pulling the blanket off them after they had been covered up).

I just don't want Paulo to die. :(

timeline...this morning, Hawaii.

Damon - hey Cuse, are you reading this stuff?

Carleton - yeah man...these fans are killing me. I mean, do they not remember themselves demanding a Redshirt eppisode? Lets have a redshirt eppy they all said. Lets see things from a different perspective they said. Why all the attention to just the main guys, there's dozens of other people in the camp...whats their story they said.

Damon - I hear you Carl. I mean, we throw these guys in...and even manage to find a way to link them to a bunch of other storylines...and all we get is ripped for it. THEY asked for it. Now THEY are saying they didn't get to know them enough. Well they are REDSHIRTS right? They are throwaway characters by definition.

Carelton - I know, I know. We did an entire eppisode as a shout out to the fans, and they don't even appreciate it. Lets go get a latte and see if we can get JJ to airlift us back to hollywood to write for movies.

Damon - I hear you...I still have Billy Dee's card...what abou that movie idea from the POV of Lando Calris...

Carleton - let it go Damon...let it go.

I will choose to watch and criticize this FICTIONAL tv show however I damn well please.

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I liked Paulo, but I didn't exactly get invested in them. I felt bad and sad for Paulo though, but shedding tears didn't even cross my mind. Goodbye. Nice meeting you, Paulo. Good riddance, Nikki.

Also, their deaths? Awesome. Not a cliched last minute save where Nikki would open her eyes and they'd all be like, "SHE'S ALIVE! YAY!!!" Instead we see Nikki open her eyes and WHAmP!!! That was shocking!

Whatever your feelings about these two, the fact is, this is what tv and movies are for. They are a way for us to exlpore places, meet people and experience feelings and situations we otherwise wouldn't get a chance at.

Tragedies were written as a catharsis, comedys let us laugh at things that we wouldn't normally feel right about enjoying. Drama can make the heart beat faster and let us imagine what we would do in the same situation. They are meant for us to experience and express feelings that are sometimes not okay in everyday life.

People have cheered the death of characters since characters were invented. They have laughed at and with them and cried over their sorrows and deaths. It's what it's all about.
Imagination and entertainment.

The fact that you don't like how some people choose to view a set of characters is just your view and so yours to deal with. As noted, they are not real and what happens to them is not real. It is for our entertainment and people enjoy different things for different reasons.

There is no right or wrong way to watch a performance.

Whether or not you liked them, they were just as real of characters as Kate or Claire or Sayid, and we can't pick and choose who's life actually matters on the island. .





It's a TV show and I can make of it what I please.

The Four Noble Truths are:

1- Life is suffering
2- Suffering is created through attachment
3- There is a way to overcome attachment (and suffering)
4- There is a path to achieve this

Someone needs to detach a little.

I think that a ton of fans are being very hypocritical Lost watchers. As devoted Lost fans (which all of us here at the Fuselage are), we take the show pretty seriously. We invest time in these characters, and we actually connect emotionally with them and want to see them grow and progress. That is what makes it so satisfying when we see Kate and Jack reunited, and so devastating when we see Michael murder Libby and Ana Lucia. The fact that this connection exists between viewer and character reveals that the characters are (to a certain degree) real to us, not just pointless works of fiction. Therefore, I think it is atrocious for anyone to be happy about what occurred at the end of the episode- that was downright disturbing. None of us should revel in the murder of anyone, becuase death is a terrible thing. They were buried alive. Whether or not you liked them, they were just as real of characters as Kate or Claire or Sayid, and we can't pick and choose who's life actually matters on the island. How can some characters be real if other characters are viewed as throwaway annoyances? Either everyone's real and we invest in them emotionally, or everyone is just an insignificant work of fiction who we should feel nothing for. We can't have it both ways- that would be hypocritical.

No.
When the show gives us such a macabre, noir, Tales-of-the-crypt-like ending u cannot help but laugh.
It detaches from emotional recognition, I'm not saying its bad, I liked the episode,
its just different from what we usually get on Lost, and thus we fans react differently.


-Exodus

timeline...this morning, Hawaii.

Damon - hey Cuse, are you reading this stuff?

Carleton - yeah man...these fans are killing me. I mean, do they not remember themselves demanding a Redshirt eppisode? Lets have a redshirt eppy they all said. Lets see things from a different perspective they said. Why all the attention to just the main guys, there's dozens of other people in the camp...whats their story they said.

Damon - I hear you Carl. I mean, we throw these guys in...and even manage to find a way to link them to a bunch of other storylines...and all we get is ripped for it. THEY asked for it. Now THEY are saying they didn't get to know them enough. Well they are REDSHIRTS right? They are throwaway characters by definition.

Carelton - I know, I know. We did an entire eppisode as a shout out to the fans, and they don't even appreciate it. Lets go get a latte and see if we can get JJ to airlift us back to hollywood to write for movies.

Damon - I hear you...I still have Billy Dee's card...what abou that movie idea from the POV of Lando Calris...

Carleton - let it go Damon...let it go.

ABSOLUTELY!

I hated these characters from day one but I have to say that I enjoyed this episode. It was fun to see a couple of shallow people who didn't get involved with the lostie community because they had their own agenda. I also thought that their deaths were pretty horrific so that's a plus as well.

Still, there are always gonna be people who complain endlessly about the writing. These are the same sort of nags who bleet on about things like spaceships flying like airplanes in sci-fi movies; about the wrong camoflage on a jeep in the background of a war movie; or about improper police procedure in a cop flick. Ultimately, these people will never be happy and for them, so it goes.

I think Lost fanatics don't realize that it is because of the quality of writing that they can spend hours upon hours bickering about a screencap of a newspaper and that the bickering will actually be relevant.

What I think is ridiculous is the posters in these forums who get so angry about the show. Really, why invest so much of your time in the details if you're only going to use them to rip on the details you invested so much of your time in?

To everyone complaining about the writing: tune into Supernatural, CSI, or Law and Order. At least then your complaints about shoddy characters and ridiculous plot-points will hold some water.

Hey, I'll just admit it. I wanted them to die a bizarre death from the moment these interlopers were introduced.

we can't pick and choose who's life actually matters on the island.

No, That would be the writers job, well for one exception where we could and we did.. See Ana-Lucia

How can some characters be real if other characters are viewed as throwaway annoyances?

First of all: none of them are real. Are you referring to what the rest of the planet calls MAIN caracters vs. SUPPORT caracters?

You ever cry watching Star Trek? There's lots of Starfleet personel that died over the course of the series. The guys with the red shirts were just as real as Captain Kirk. How could they simply kill them, why oh why??????

Either everyone's real and we invest in them emotionally, or everyone is just an insignificant work of fiction who we should feel nothing for. We can't have it both ways- that would be hypocritical.

Most of us realise that it's a FICTIONAL TV SHOW.

This has to be one of the oddest posts I ever read on any message board that I have visited. I'm not sure if I should be worried about you.

I liked this episode because they hired Edgar Allen Poe to write it. He's pretty good. He also wrote that show The Pit and the Pendulum.

Keep it up Eddie. I knew you'd come back.

Obviously these characters had to be well written in a sense because they have provoked such a strong reaction from so many people.

There are a lot of characters out there that are 'not real' but this is the first time that I have ever encountered so many real human beings with feelings becoming so hostile towards people who supposedly don't really exist.

Speaking from my own point of view this episode was huge and has obviously had an effect on all of you otherwise you wouldn't be on here repeating over and over that you hate them and acting like a bunch of mad rabid wolves preparing to rip their fictional throats out.

I'm sure I'm going to get a lot of hostility from this but maybe next time some new characters come along it might be worth reserving judgement until they have made a few appearances at least instead of becoming a lynch mob before they even open their mouths.

Most of us were completely outspoken about our complete and utter distaste for Pikki from day one. You wanna talk about "real characters"? I was completely emotionally wrapped up with Pikki... wrapped up in hate.

Why did they kill your children? Steal your inheritance? loose you your Job? Express a dislike, perhaps with a rationale attached, but reserve hate for something that genuinely justifies it. Just as love has no value if you give it away lightly neither does it's opposite.

Also with regard to the person who wrote about Main Characters Vs Supporting Characters. Lost doesn't have any supporting characters (which is it's principal problem), you are either a main character (Sawyer, Jack, Jin, Claire etc), a reoccurring role (Tom, Rose and Bernard, Christian, Ethan), a guest star (Billy Dee, etc), who generally appear in the flashbacks only or you're a sock (the walking beach wallpaper that makes up the crash survivors).

The truth of the matter is though that the 10+ main lead characters idea doesn't work and hasn't ever worked (Lost was breaking new ground when they tried it). 3 Series in and it's blatantly clear that we have the A (action) team of Jack, Kate, Locke and Sayid who are really our main characters (the ones making the decisions and progressing the story lines)and the B (Beach) team of Hurley, Charlie, Claire, Sun and Jin who are the supporting characters (who either provide comic relief, damsel in distress or support the mains) with Sawyer and Desmond caught somewhere between the 2 (at present), Sawyer being the classic anti-hero and Desmond a man out of time.

The problem with having all mains meant that there was never any concerted attempt by the writers to develop any real supporting players amongst the Socks because it was always deemed better to give the dialogue to another main character to please us the fans. Subsequently we've ended up in the situation where we've a vocal small group within a larger mute group (the crash survivors), and no point of exchange between them. The lack of talk back in the big group beach huddles ('live together, die alone' and 'new sheriff in town' being good examples) make this very apparent, the complete lack of socks presence in the hatch as well made the exclusive club seems even more exclusive. Shows like BSG have much larger casts than Lost, but suffer hardly any of the character criticisms simply because the bulk of the characters are supporting players to a small group of lead characters. That's not to say that they aren't integral to the show, or don't have their own dedicated episodes (many of them do). I'm sure if the writers were asked as to how they would of done things differently given the chance, number one on the list would of been less main characters and more supporting ones.

I felt that Nikki and Paulo were not very good characters who had a very clumsy introduction into the series. However, the writers were able to clean up the mess by giving them a very cool, very twisted demise.

Kudos to them.

At the end of the day I know that Lost is just a tv show with fictional characters, but that doesn’t mean I’m not invested in certain characters. I think most hardcore Lost fans are.

But I also know that they *are* just fictional characters, no matter how flawed and brilliant and humane they are. I think that the vast majority of people know the difference between fiction and real life, and can apply moral, ethical and legal standards accordingly. Just because I want Jack to take a long tumble off of a cliff’s edge certainly doesn’t mean I really want it to happen to anyone. It’s clear that Lost tackles issues that are very close at heart to most people, and isn’t just a show about far off alien species which makes it easier for us to detach ourselves from the fates of the characters featured in it… but like any tv series Lost is there to entertain as well, and I don’t see the problem with people rooting for their favourites and wishing - or rejoicing in - the downfall of who they don’t like. The problem occurs when people blur the lines of reality and fiction. I mean Ben is my second favourite character who I love dearly and will defend to the death, but if I met someone like him in real life I doubt I’d be nearly as captivated by him. In fact I think I’d be scared silly.
I think a problem with Nikki and Paulo is that they didn’t have the same kind of depth, relevance and longevity when compared to a lot of the other characters, and so many found it hard to form an attactchment to them, especially when they didn’t get a huge amount of screen time. And especially since, in my opinion, they had a horribly jarring introduction.

And most people have a favourite character they would be devastated at the loss of, and likewise have least favourites they wouldn’t shed a tear over, regardless of how long that character has been in the show. Everyone has at least a tiny bit of bias when it comes to certain people and certain things.

Look on the bright side. They might have cremated Paolo and Nikki like the dead from the crash.

I'd just like to personally differentiate my dislike for the fictional characters of Nikki and Paulo and any feelings toward Kiele Sanchez and Rodrigo Santoro.

The characters Nikki and Paulo were, IMO, clumsily introduced into the series. This is no fault of Ms. Sanchez or Mr. Santoro. I just saw Rodrigo in 300 and I thought he did a fine job there. I'm not ashamed to admit that I enjoyed Kiele Sanchez's role on the short-lived Related. Plus, she's super hot. I mean possibly the hottest girl they've had on the show....:biggrin: Not to say that Rodrigo wasn't offering some eye candy to those who are so inclined.;) I digress.

Both were capable actors before arriving on Lost and I think they were victims of bad timing. The characters came into the viewing consciousness at a point on the show when the main story arc was focused on events "away" from the beach and the main cast. The mini-season arc had a myriad of scheduling and editing problems and I think we can add Nikki and Paulo to that list. Had we been given a few more small doses of Pikki over all six episodes I think there would've have been more acceptance (at least on my part). But the way it played out, the characters we're given what seemed to be throwaway lines in a couple of episodes. Those episodes for the most part barely fit into the overall theme of the mini-season. So how could these brand new characters ever have a chance of gaining credibility with the audience. Then throw a long hiatus into the mix and the two new characters are virtually forgettable.

Again, I have nothing against the actors personally because I think they did the best job they could. They were introduced as "red-shirts" and they died as the same. Some fans obviously wanted to know what other characters were doing and the writers attempted to devise a cheeky and ironic answer to those questions. IMO, their attempt fell flat. Some ideas this season have been brilliant, while the likes of Pikki have garnered mixed reactions (to put it kindly). I don't think anyone truly hated the actors or the characters, per se, just the concept of Pikki being so blatantly shoved upon the screen. Thus, their creepy manner of death was a fitting end for many fans.

Everyone should be able to do whatever the hell they want in their fantasy land as long as they keep it to themselves. And if you want to see some real cruelty you should watch some early morning cartoons.

p.s. unless I'm missing some bad sarcasm no one as yet seems to have got the idea of being "hypocritical" right O_O

Hypocritical - a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles

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Thank you!!! As a person in the education field.....that was driving me crazy!!!

Either everyone's real and we invest in them emotionally, or everyone is just an insignificant work of fiction who we should feel nothing for.
The gospel according to Gradyboy. :hypocrit:

We can't have it both ways- that would be hypocritical.

Sure we can.
Watch me.
I cheer when the good guys win and when the bad guys are defeated. Nikki and Paolo were murderous, treacherous thieves who got what they deserved.

My hat's off to TPTB. They played us all like a fiddle when it came to Nikki and Paolo. They had to know we would all bristle at the introduction of these "interlopers" . Looks like they were just setting us up for this excellent episode.

Those characters were dumped into the show completely out of context, neither were up the acting skills of any other characters we've seen on the show. Didn't like them the first time I saw them. Didn't like them the last time I saw them.

What's hypocritical about that?

Nikki and Paulo are, in my opinion, the strangest couple of characters introduced in Lost so far. Their role has been unique: not main characters, not secondary characters, not background characters. Many many fans have disliked them since their introduction. Some have liked them. In a way or another, these characters make fans talk. I was surprised by the amount of threads and discussions about them.

Since I watch Lost from a writer's point of view, I'm more focused on the general development of the story and am not really a hardcore fan of this or that character, although of course I have my preferences. The writers decided to put Nikki and Paulo in the foreground at a very delicate moment in Season 3 and in the narration of the story. To me it felt like a deliberate and sudden change of rhythm, and I saw Nikki and Paulo as a "touch of trash", a divertissement the authors added and enjoyed. An hour of self-parody putting two disposable characters as the show's anti-heroes and giving them a very ironic and unforgettable death: being buried alive is the ultimate form of "not-finished-ness" a writer can give a character.

I didn't like much Nikki and Paulo, but I appreciated their function, in a sense.

Rick

Thank you!!! As a person in the education field.....that was driving me crazy!!!

How about this, then?

None of us should revel in the murder of anyone, becuase death is a terrible thing.

Ding dong, the witch is dead.

No, seriously... "Murder"? Who was murdered? I've seen a few people claim that Hurley and Sawyer "killed" Nikki and Paulo, or even "murdered" them... which is outright nonsense. "Murder" is the single most malicious form of taking another person's life. It's defined as:

The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.

When Hurley and Sawyer buried Nikki and Paulo alive, they were thinking they were already dead. I don't know what the law says in this regard - can you actually be charged for killing (not murdering!) someone you honestly believed to be already dead? Worst case scenario, if they were put on trial by the Smoke Monster following the law system of a civilized society, they could be charged for negligent homicide. Murder, however, would require proving that they not only were fully aware that Nikki and Paulo were still breathing and would be recovering, but also acted with extreme malice (usually involving planning ahead rather than a spontaneous act) when acting to end their lives.

Nikki and Paulo are, in my opinion, the strangest couple of characters introduced in Lost so far. Their role has been unique: not main characters, not secondary characters, not background characters. Many many fans have disliked them since their introduction. Some have liked them. In a way or another, these characters make fans talk. I was surprised by the amount of threads and discussions about them.

Since I watch Lost from a writer's point of view, I'm more focused on the general development of the story and am not really a hardcore fan of this or that character, although of course I have my preferences. The writers decided to put Nikki and Paulo in the foreground at a very delicate moment in Season 3 and in the narration of the story. To me it felt like a deliberate and sudden change of rhythm, and I saw Nikki and Paulo as a "touch of trash", a divertissement the authors added and enjoyed. An hour of self-parody putting two disposable characters as the show's anti-heroes and giving them a very ironic and unforgettable death: being buried alive is the ultimate form of "not-finished-ness" a writer can give a character.

I didn't like much Nikki and Paulo, but I appreciated their function, in a sense.

Rick

I completely agree with this. It was great to get an episode straight out of 'The Twilight Zone', and now it's over... back to the main story for a while. I hope we have a few more of these diversions before Lost wraps up for good.

Why should anyone feel morally obliged to like or sympathize with every character on the show? It's fiction! We've all read countless books, and seen countless movies and shows where characters are generally despised, and most of us cheer when they're dealt with.

For me, Expose justified the introduction and presence of Pikki. It made their existence on the show worthwhile, because apart from the brilliantly macabre and twisted demise they suffered, we also got to see life on the Island from a fresh perspective. I enjoyed the idea that they explored the place and saw things, yet didn't divulge a thing to anyone else. I liked the coldblooded way Nikki manipulated Artz, the way Paulo quietly found and hid the diamonds and the insecurity that drove him to it, and especially the way Nikki decided to take matters into her own hands, even though you could see a glimmer of affection for Paulo in her eyes right before she discovered the gum (silly bint)... I think it made for a fantastic hour of TV. It was Lost, yet eerily different.

And yeah, the ending sealed the deal, because it was so unexpected, and so horrific. That's the beauty of fiction. You enjoy something completely, you relate to it on several levels, and you can react in a way that perhaps wouldn't be right or suitable in RL. You can root for hated or disliked characters to suffer, and for the ones you like to succeed. That's the point. To read more into it seems useless to me.

And hypocritical? That might have been the case if people claimed they really liked Pikki, only to cheer at their deaths. But no one did. Those who didn't like the couple made their feelings clear; vociferously so, and correspondingly expressed relief at their demise. It would've been hypocritical if those same people suddenly started sympathizing with Pikki, IMO.

Let's have Charlie and Hurley, the Abbot and Costello of the Island whom we've come to know as the innocent comedic relief, bury these two people who are in fact STILL ALIVE.. and in doing so inadvertently murder them.



charlie, the drug taking, sun kidnapper you mean?


and it wouldn't be murder. manslaughter at the very worst. accidental death, would be my guess though

I think Nikki and Paulo were a great idea that didn't work. On paper they looked like a perfect set of people to draw in the age group that advertisers drool over. What happened seems to be that those already watching the program did not feel the need for these two to be inserted "after the fact" and they did not in fact draw in the ad mens dream group. So TPTB gave as a fitting send off for the two that didn't work.

Also wasn't Paulo quoted as not being signed on for the long run as he had commitments in his own country?

Why should anyone feel morally obliged to like or sympathize with every character on the show? It's fiction! .........And hypocritical? That might have been the case if people claimed they really liked Pikki, only to cheer at their deaths. But no one did. Those who didn't like the couple made their feelings clear; vociferously so, and correspondingly expressed relief at their demise. It would've been hypocritical if those same people suddenly started sympathizing with Pikki, IMO.


I agree with you except for the fact that I thought Mr Eko was a great character, loved him and all that. And when he died, I loved it. He went out with a bang. Just as he should have. Am I a hypocrit? I dont think so. Mr Eko had to die the way he did for his story arc. And I thoroughly enjoyed the fact that he did.

As much as people are posting how much they hate this season, I feel it's one of the best so far. We are getting the answers we want, but we have to look for them, and we're not going to get all the answers in one fell swoop. Would we expect any less from the writers of LOST????

I think that a ton of fans are being very hypocritical Lost watchers. As devoted Lost fans (which all of us here at the Fuselage are), we take the show pretty seriously. We invest time in these characters, and we actually connect emotionally with them and want to see them grow and progress. .


You answered your own question. Nikki & Paulo weren't on enough for anyone to invest in them emotionally. We didn't know ANYTHING about them until this episode - and what we saw was not very appealiing to a lot of viewers. There was no emotional investment into the characters, therefore, it was easy to revel in their demise - it was a great twist and an OMG!!!! moment.

I was happy.. not because Nikki and Paulo died, but because I think it was a devilishly brilliant piece of writing. Let's have Charlie and Hurley, the Abbot and Costello of the Island whom we've come to know as the innocent comedic relief, bury these two people who are in fact STILL ALIVE.. and in doing so inadvertently murder them.How sickeningly awesome. Bravo..

Exactly, good writing. I wasnt happy that they were buried alive. But I didnt feel sorry for them because they were murderers and they died because of their own greed.

Why did they kill your children? Steal your inheritance? loose you your Job? Express a dislike, perhaps with a rationale attached, but reserve hate for something that genuinely justifies it. Just as love has no value if you give it away lightly neither does it's opposite.

Also with regard to the person who wrote about Main Characters Vs Supporting Characters. Lost doesn't have any supporting characters (which is it's principal problem), you are either a main character (Sawyer, Jack, Jin, Claire etc), a reoccurring role (Tom, Rose and Bernard, Christian, Ethan), a guest star (Billy Dee, etc), who generally appear in the flashbacks only or you're a sock (the walking beach wallpaper that makes up the crash survivors).

The truth of the matter is though that the 10+ main lead characters idea doesn't work and hasn't ever worked (Lost was breaking new ground when they tried it). 3 Series in and it's blatantly clear that we have the A (action) team of Jack, Kate, Locke and Sayid who are really our main characters (the ones making the decisions and progressing the story lines)and the B (Beach) team of Hurley, Charlie, Claire, Sun and Jin who are the supporting characters (who either provide comic relief, damsel in distress or support the mains) with Sawyer and Desmond caught somewhere between the 2 (at present), Sawyer being the classic anti-hero and Desmond a man out of time.

The problem with having all mains meant that there was never any concerted attempt by the writers to develop any real supporting players amongst the Socks because it was always deemed better to give the dialogue to another main character to please us the fans. Subsequently we've ended up in the situation where we've a vocal small group within a larger mute group (the crash survivors), and no point of exchange between them. The lack of talk back in the big group beach huddles ('live together, die alone' and 'new sheriff in town' being good examples) make this very apparent, the complete lack of socks presence in the hatch as well made the exclusive club seems even more exclusive. Shows like BSG have much larger casts than Lost, but suffer hardly any of the character criticisms simply because the bulk of the characters are supporting players to a small group of lead characters. That's not to say that they aren't integral to the show, or don't have their own dedicated episodes (many of them do). I'm sure if the writers were asked as to how they would of done things differently given the chance, number one on the list would of been less main characters and more supporting ones.

I really don't think the writers have been giving dialogue to a "main" character to please the fans. And I don't think the problem has been too many "main" characters but rather too many survivors.

But you are right, if they had introduced more of the supporting or background characters much earlier, especially those they intended to attach further purpose to their role on the island such as Pikki, then so many fans may not have had such strong feelings of dislikes for them. Good or bad, we've grown attached to our "main" Lost characters, while we were never given the chance to develop these feelings toward Pikki.

And for the record, I never cared one way or the other. I just felt a bit annoyed that I would have to learn two more back stories when my aging mind was already having trouble keeping track of the rest. ;)

I keep wondering if TPTB knew that we here at the Lage would not take to Nikki and Paulo all along and it was all part of the "plot"??


I feel torn that I hate to think that the show isn't pre-planned with a reason for everything -
yet at the same time I love to think that because those of us "die hard" fans disliked NP so much they were willing to change directions to please us -

I just can't wait to find out which way it really is!

I think that a ton of fans are being very hypocritical Lost watchers. As devoted Lost fans (which all of us here at the Fuselage are), we take the show pretty seriously. We invest time in these characters, and we actually connect emotionally with them and want to see them grow and progress. That is what makes it so satisfying when we see Kate and Jack reunited, and so devastating when we see Michael murder Libby and Ana Lucia. The fact that this connection exists between viewer and character reveals that the characters are (to a certain degree) real to us, not just pointless works of fiction. Therefore, I think it is atrocious for anyone to be happy about what occurred at the end of the episode- that was downright disturbing. None of us should revel in the murder of anyone, becuase death is a terrible thing. They were buried alive. Whether or not you liked them, they were just as real of characters as Kate or Claire or Sayid, and we can't pick and choose who's life actually matters on the island. How can some characters be real if other characters are viewed as throwaway annoyances? Either everyone's real and we invest in them emotionally, or everyone is just an insignificant work of fiction who we should feel nothing for. We can't have it both ways- that would be hypocritical.
youre so right about the character connection and all that jazz,but i can but disagree on the end point.its just a matter of taste i guess.some like dark stuff some like pleasant.some say potato some say tomato and so on and so forth:cool:what im trying to say is ,you cannot attribute ''disturbing'' to something and be objective!its all in the eye of the beholder.i really liked the ending .it reminded me of my beloved The serpent and the rainbow flick.plus im claustrophobic which makes it all much worse!tasteful stuff!:)

I really wanted to like Nikki & Paulo all along but I think if anything that episode turned them into throwaway characters. Before that episode they could have had some significance. Now they're just a footnote. However, I wasn't happy with the show ended even though it has a nice Twilight Zone ending. They were basically written into and out of the show at the same time.

the poster above that said "10+ main characters doesn't work, never has worked" has obviously never read Lord of the Rings or the The Stand. Both feature 10+ mains, and dozens of secondaries...

I don't see how deciding who you want and don't want to see on a show is hypocritical. And that's what a character dying on a show equals, especially a show such as Lost where there are few other alternatives to explain a character not recurring on the show.

Personally, I hope Hurley and Charlie get buried alive (unless Charlie gets back on the drugs).