Okay, I'm watching it for a second time (first on CTV, now on ABC) and something dawned on me when Juliet explained why she had a key to the handcuffs:

If Juliet was left behind as well, how did she manage to cuff herself to Kate? Was she not unconscious from the gas as well? And perhaps more importantly... how did she bring an unconscious Kate that far into the jungle?

:confused:

my thoughts were that she came too first and ... must have had the handcuffs? ... and then pretended to get knocked out again

my thoughts were that she came too first and ... must have had the handcuffs? ... and then pretended to get knocked out again

Yeah, but how did she manage to regain consciousness and carry (?) Kate that far into the woods before Kate herself regained consciousness?

Also, why would she choose Kate over Jack? Surely he would have been a safer ticket to the Losties beach than Kate, who doesn't know Juliet the way Jack does...

I thought the people with the gas masks carried them into the jungle?

I thought they cuffed her and she just happened to have keys on her. Not that far fetched really.

Yeah, I am confused by this. Did she happen to have the cuffs on her or was it all a con? It's possible that it was a con, and the Others carried Kate for Juliet and then had her lie down and get cuffed to her.
Or something.
Really confusing and depends on if you trust Juliet or not.

She was awful quick when Kate reached for the knife that was convienently sticking out -
I think she was awake --- never gassed -
Ben is exploiting their weakness'

I thought the people with the gas masks carried them into the jungle?

That was my initial thought upon the first viewing, but then why did they leave Jack and Sayid in Othersville?
100%
Yeah, I am confused by this. Did she happen to have the cuffs on her or was it all a con? It's possible that it was a con, and the Others carried Kate for Juliet and then had her lie down and get cuffed to her.
Or something.
Really confusing and depends on if you trust Juliet or not.

Yeah, the more I think about it, the more I don't trust Juliet... and here I thought she could be trusted.
100%
She was awful quick when Kate reached for the knife that was convienently sticking out -
I think she was awake --- never gassed -
Ben is exploiting their weakness'

Agreed. So the next question then is why is she doing this for the Others? Ben said she would be able to go home, but clearly she is still around. Sure, the sub has been blown up (some say otherwise, but I believe it's gone), but if that was their only way off the island then what other offer could Ben have made her?

BEN (to Juliet): "Look, as soon as we get another sub..." ;)

Okay, I'm watching it for a second time (first on CTV, now on ABC) and something dawned on me when Juliet explained why she had a key to the handcuffs:

If Juliet was left behind as well, how did she manage to cuff herself to Kate? Was she not unconscious from the gas as well? And perhaps more importantly... how did she bring an unconscious Kate that far into the jungle?

:confused:


She told Kate she was afraid of being left behind too, I think. Makes sense to me that she watched them gas Kate/Jack and followed them to where they put Kate, has the handcuffs and keys with her. She stategically placed the pocket knife so Kate would see it, most likely.

D/

I thought they cuffed her and she just happened to have keys on her. Not that far fetched really.

I could be mistaken, but it doesn't seem that simple either.

Maybe Ben is holding her sister somewhere just as he is holding Locke's Dad.

BUT WHY TAKE KATE, INSTEAD OF JACK?

Fishy, fishy, fishy!

I think her intent is to further the rift between Kate and Jack. She tells Kate about his broken heart, then Kate seems jack and Juliet smiling at each other. Kate feels guilty and backs off so as not to ruin any more chances for Jack. Split Jack and Kate, get back to the beach, foster more insecurities among the Losties, forcing them to take sides -- Jack or Kate -- weakening them even more. Look at how quickly Locke abandoned them.

She told Kate she was afraid of being left behind too, I think. Makes sense to me that she watched them gas Kate/Jack and followed them to where they put Kate, has the handcuffs and keys with her. She stategically placed the pocket knife so Kate would see it, most likely.

D/

So you're saying Juliet wasn't gassed and therefore wasn't exactly "left behind" against her will? If that's the case, then she's a spy for the Others, or else she made a deal with Ben to leave the Others and join the Losties. Though something tells me Ben would not be so accomodating. :biggrin:
100%
Maybe Ben is holding her sister somewhere just as he is holding Locke's Dad.

Aha! Now there's a thought to ponder! What could Ben have waiting for Juliet in the giant, magical box? Methinks it could be sister! ;)
100%
BUT WHY TAKE KATE, INSTEAD OF JACK?

Fishy, fishy, fishy!

Precisely, brotha! It ain't smellin' too pretty right now... :biggrin:
100%
I think her intent is to further the rift between Kate and Jack. She tells Kate about his broken heart, then Kate seems jack and Juliet smiling at each other. Kate feels guilty and backs off so as not to ruin any more chances for Jack. Split Jack and Kate, get back to the beach, foster more insecurities among the Losties, forcing them to take sides -- Jack or Kate -- weakening them even more. Look at how quickly Locke abandoned them.

Divide and conquer. It certainly sounds like something the Others would do. Following your line of thinking, isn't it a good strategy to divide the followers from their leader? It seems that's what Juliet is doing since Jack obviously sides with Juliet, while everyone else would no doubt be very skeptical and suspicious of her, especially Kate, Sawyer and Sayid who are all key members of the Losties camp.

And if the preview is any indication...
Sayid is on the case!

while everyone else would no doubt be very skeptical and suspicious of her [/spoiler]

I'm worried they won't be. They told Locke about "what Kate did." He looked at Kate with a great deal of contempt before he left. Remember how leery Hurley was of Kate in the very beginning? And how the Losties treated Kate as if she had the plague when it was thought she poisoned Jin before the raft launched? Someone spilled the beans about her past then, too.

A big problem with these folks is that they are so quick to judge the indiscretions of others, forgetting their own trespasses. All Juliet has to do is plant the seed with anyone who might be on the fence about Kate.

Kate can count on Syid and Sawyer. But a lot of people will follow Jack to the bitter end. A lot of folks would rather not believe Syid because of his past. Jack is the golden boy.

I'm worried they won't be. They told Locke about "what Kate did." He looked at Kate with a great deal of contempt before he left. Remember how leery Hurley was of Kate in the very beginning? And how the Losties treated Kate as if she had the plague when it was thought she poisoned Jin before the raft launched? Someone spilled the beans about her past then, too.

A big problem with these folks is that they are so quick to judge the indiscretions of others, forgetting their own trespasses. All Juliet has to do is plant the seed with anyone who might be on the fence about Kate.

Kate can count on Syid and Sawyer. But a lot of people will follow Jack to the bitter end. A lot of folks would rather not believe Syid because of his past. Jack is the golden boy.

You raise some very good points and I couldn't agree with you more, adr. A very well-thought-out post, if I may say so. ;)

It's so true that Juliet can dispel people's suspicions by casting doubt on almost anyone else, especially since she seems to know so much about them, and there's so many dark secrets to bring into the light. I'll bet those files on them will come in real handy... for Juliet and the Others.

ETA:
Woohoo, I've finally gone from "Coach" to "Economy". Sure, it took me much longer than some here, but I still think it's :cool:.

:biggrin:

the only advantage Juliet has is she wasn't locked in her house. Kate couldn't get out. I'm sure Juliet just opened the back door and went out. That's why she didn't pass out from the gas.

Yeah, but how did she manage to regain consciousness and carry (?) Kate that far into the woods before Kate herself regained consciousness?

Also, why would she choose Kate over Jack? Surely he would have been a safer ticket to the Losties beach than Kate, who doesn't know Juliet the way Jack does...
Juliet definitely had help carrying Kate out into the jungle. She was not drugged. She accomplished what she was supposed to do - play mind games with Kate to develop a tenuous sisterhood with her (parallel to Kate's relationship with Cassidy in her fb). Juliet told Kate things to lead Kate be hesitant to talk to Jack and also to lead Kate to be jealous of her (for instance, when Jack saw the cage sex, he was with Ben, NOT Juliet-so why did Juliet tell Kate she was with him). The thing is, Juliet needed time to accomplish all of this, so Jack had to be repeatedly gassed (there were multiple cannisters in his house). Sayid for some reason was not gassed as much, because he had time to canvas Othersville to determine they had left and taken their weapons with them BEFORE Juliet went to get him.

Jack trusts her now because he believes she was left behind for helping his friends escape. And the branding really affected him. So, she now has an in with the Losties and will infiltrate them. Hopefully Sayid will be able to stop her.

A very well-thought-out post, if I may say so. ;)



Thanks, man!!!!

That was my initial thought upon the first viewing, but then why did they leave Jack and Sayid in Othersville?


I'm not sure.. maybe so that Juliet could get inside Kate's head first?

ok, lets think about the options here:

1) Juliets's telling the truth--she was abandoned by the Others. she and kate were gassed by the Others, carried out unconscious to the jungle, handcuffed to eachother, they wake up, and juliet decides to not tell kate she happens to have a handcuff key.
--ummm, IMO if you're gonna carry someone that far and handcuff em to eachother, wouldn't you check their pockets to make sure they don't have a key on em? especially if one of them was the warden for the prisoners and would most likely have a key on them? what's the point of handcuffing them to eachother? what do the Others have to gain from this? the only person who seems to gain from juliet being handcuffed to kate is juliet--gains kate's trust, forms sisterly bond (like the flashback).


2) Juliet was abandoned by the Others but it happened this way: she and kate were gassed by the Others, carried out unconscious to the jungle. juliet wakes up first. assesses the situation and decides to handcuff herself to kate to gain kate's trust. she pretends to still be unconscious when kate wakes up.
--IMO, this sound initially plausible. but why on earth did the Others carry them out into the middle of the jungle? what's the point? why not leave them in Othersville like jack and sayid?


3) The Others tried to gas juliet but she somehow avoided passing out (perhaps she slipped out the back door, or broke open a window). the Others leave and she follows as they dump kate's unconscious body in the jungle. since she's been abandoned by the Others, she decides that the best way to gain trust of the losties is to handcuff herself to kate and play the charade.
--IMO--ok. initially seems plausible. but still--why on earth would they dump kate's body out in the jungle. the only reason i can think of to do that would be to isolate her from jack and sayid. the only way anyone could possibly gain from that situation would be that if juliet was isolated with her they could form a bond. so once again, it seems like this was planned to strategically isolate both kate and juliet to give them the opportunity to form a bond so kate would invite her to be a lostie.


4) juliet was lying. she was not abandoned by the Others but instead is attempting to infiltrate the losties camp for some reason. the Others concocted this whole situation (waking up in the middle of the jungle handcuffed to eachother) as a way to isolate kate and juliet together, force them to work together and see eachother as peers instead of prisoner/warden, allow kate to feel sympathy for juliet for being abandoned, gain kate's trust, and thereby invite her into the Losties camp.
--IMO seems pretty plausible. questions that this brings up--what does juliet have to personally gain from all this? what did ben use as incentive to risk her life in this way? what is her ultimate goal once she's in the Losties camp? what do the Others ultimately have to gain from her being in the Losties camp? planting misinformation? some bigger master plan?


anyone else think of any other plausible scenarios?





BUT WHY TAKE KATE, INSTEAD OF JACK?

Fishy, fishy, fishy!

jack already has sympathy for her and would be willing to invite her into the Losties camp. sayid is always going to be suspicious of her because he has a good eye for seeing people's real motivations and because he can tell when someone is lying. kate, however, is susceptible to being influenced... if the monster hadn't come and juliet hadn't been so scared and taken off the handcuffs, you can imagine that juliet and kate would have potentially formed that sisterly "we're in this thing together" bond. with both jack and kate's support the other losties would have welcomed her and just viewed sayid and overly suspicious. with only jack's support, the other losties will be more confused and doubt her more....

None of the those ideas explain the fact the key was in her pocket - if she was gassed why leave the key -
if she was left out in the jungle whether by choice or not but not handcuffed why or how did she get the handcuffs and the key -

and the knife in her pocket - why leave that if she was drugged -
why have it hanging out for Kate to grab?

I'm sensing some merged threads in the near future. ;)

None of the those ideas explain the fact the key was in her pocket - if she was gassed why leave the key -
if she was left out in the jungle whether by choice or not but not handcuffed why or how did she get the handcuffs and the key -

and the knife in her pocket - why leave that if she was drugged -
why have it hanging out for Kate to grab?

if she was lying and was NOT abandoned by the Others than i would imagine she would take the key with her just in case of emergency. i can think of a million reasons why i would want the security of having that key with me just in case something went wrong with her con.

why did she have the knife? well, that must have been purposeful--it was just in such an obvious place.
either the Others left it there which seems unlikely (why would you leave the unconscious person you're dragging through the jungle with a weapon just in case the person wakes up?)
or if she's with the Others still, then she left it there for kate to grab so kate would feel empowered. she knew it would be useless to undo the handcuffs with, and she trusted that kate wouldn't just stab her out of the blue. but allowing kate to have the knife would allow kate to feel in power. their roles would be reversed from previous interactions where juliet alway had all the power and control. once kate felt she had some small measure of control she would more likely feel sympathy for juliet's situation...

definately a lot of merges tonight there a quite a few posts on the same topics - I keep getting confused as to which ones I responded too only to see that I wrote on another one -

Anyway --

Do you really think she would think to grab handcuffs and the key or just the key - carrying it around - do all handcuff keys fit any pair of handcuffs - or would you need the exact pair --
that would help determine whether or not she had planned it

Do you really think she would think to grab handcuffs and the key or just the key - carrying it around - do all handcuff keys fit any pair of handcuffs - or would you need the exact pair --
that would help determine whether or not she had planned it

if i was planning an elaborate con on the Losties where i was going to pretend to be abandoned by the Others and have to gain the trust of the one person who hates me most right now (kate) because i was her prison warden--well, yeah, i think i'd remember to grab the handcuffs and the key.

handcuff keys work for all handcuffs made by that brand. if you have the key for smith and wesson handcuffs, then you can open any handcuffs made by smith and wesson.

handcuffs are standardized in law enforcement situations. a police officer must be able to undo any pair of handcuffs with his/her key (mainly for reasons of officer safety--in case an offender gets ahold of your cuffs and uses them against you. or if someone transfers a suspect in cuffs into your custody.)

Juliet has Jack, she wants to keep him. To mindgame Kate, Juliet would have Jack and even Kate would side with her. Juliet is a spy. Juliet knows Ben has a plan. If its true that there is no way off the island then Juliet would want to keep Jack to herself. Kate gets Sawyer, etc and Locke winds up with Clare when/if Charlie gets bumped off.

This also could be a science experiemnt if Juliet gets pregnate by Jack. We need more kids to futher mine the treasure off the island.

IMO, the key, the knife, the gas ... all are moot points once you decide whether she is a plant or not. That's what is essential.

Plus, did she not admit that, yes, she had a key but was hoping to form a bond with Kate? Would the Others, if leaving behind Juliet out of malice be stupid enough to leave the key? Likely not. Which would mean, IMO, they intended to leave her for the purpose of infiltrating the Losties. And that would suggest, to me at least, that she wasn't gassed.

What you need to decide is this: Were Juliet's motivations in attempting to bond with Kate honest? That is the heart of the matter.

I have wondered in the past about Sun's pregnancy and if it had anything to do with the 'baby-science' that Juliet was doing back home and that ultimately seems to have been the reason for her coming to the island. Now I wonder if maybe Kate was dappled with, with this babyscience and is now pregnant, and this is why Juliet is infilltrating then, to be able to keep an eye on here, and perhaps also Sun.

welcome to the 'lage shutterbug and congrats on your first post :)

welcome to the 'lage shutterbug and congrats on your first post :)

thanks!

I hope I have more input, but I had to come here to find some explanations...I still have never seen season 1 or the first bit of season 2....so some things are lost on me (pun intended!). I should probably go rent then all and catch up.

thanks!

I hope I have more input, but I had to come here to find some explanations...I still have never seen season 1 or the first bit of season 2....so some things are lost on me (pun intended!). I should probably go rent then all and catch up.

it's definitely worth starting at the beginning of season 1! it's kinda cool to hear that people can actually come into the show so late in it's story and still get really into it. but you'll have a whole new understanding of how things came to be if you see the first season--it's amazing to watch.

ok, sorry to be off topic guys! i'll stop spamming this thread now :hypocrit:

if juliet is infiltrating for baby-science purposes then i'd imagine she wants to keep tabs on aaron too...

Now I wonder if maybe Kate was dappled with, with this babyscience and is now pregnant, and this is why Juliet is infilltrating then, to be able to keep an eye on here, and perhaps also Sun.If Juliet knew Kate was pregnant I would hope she wouldn't slam her over her head onto her back. :shrug:

BUT WHY TAKE KATE, INSTEAD OF JACK?

Fishy, fishy, fishy!

Juliet knew that Kate wouldn't go back to the beach without Jack! Kate came all that way risking her own captivity to save him. So, really Juliet didn't take a risk at all. She got Kate alone for awhile, and then still ended up with Jack. I think it was just well calculated. :rolleyes:

Kate already had the handcuffs on, so Julliet would just need a key.

when Jack saw the cage sex, he was with Ben, NOT Juliet-so why did Juliet tell Kate she was with him).

Actually she said, "I was standing right there when he told you not to come back." Meaning, she was next to Kate, on the beach, when they heard Jack over the walkie.

good call on just needing the key since kate was already wearing 'em!
but it still leaves the question of why they would dump kate and juliet out in the woods but leave jack and sayid in Othersville. the only person who seems to gain anything from that move is juliet--who gets to be isolated with kate and thereby forced to bond with eachother. but if the Others did in fact abandon Juliet, then what do the Others gain from dumping them in the jungle??? nothing. why go to the trouble if you're not planning on using juliet as an infiltrator?

but it still leaves the question of why they would dump kate and juliet out in the woods but leave jack and sayid in Othersville.

Maybe they were hoping that Smokey would kill them? :confused:

ok, lets think about the options here:

1) Juliets's telling the truth--she was abandoned by the Others. she and kate were gassed by the Others, carried out unconscious to the jungle, handcuffed to eachother, they wake up, and juliet decides to not tell kate she happens to have a handcuff key.
--ummm, IMO if you're gonna carry someone that far and handcuff em to eachother, wouldn't you check their pockets to make sure they don't have a key on em? especially if one of them was the warden for the prisoners and would most likely have a key on them? what's the point of handcuffing them to eachother? what do the Others have to gain from this? the only person who seems to gain from juliet being handcuffed to kate is juliet--gains kate's trust, forms sisterly bond (like the flashback).


2) Juliet was abandoned by the Others but it happened this way: she and kate were gassed by the Others, carried out unconscious to the jungle. juliet wakes up first. assesses the situation and decides to handcuff herself to kate to gain kate's trust. she pretends to still be unconscious when kate wakes up.
--IMO, this sound initially plausible. but why on earth did the Others carry them out into the middle of the jungle? what's the point? why not leave them in Othersville like jack and sayid?


3) The Others tried to gas juliet but she somehow avoided passing out (perhaps she slipped out the back door, or broke open a window). the Others leave and she follows as they dump kate's unconscious body in the jungle. since she's been abandoned by the Others, she decides that the best way to gain trust of the losties is to handcuff herself to kate and play the charade.
--IMO--ok. initially seems plausible. but still--why on earth would they dump kate's body out in the jungle. the only reason i can think of to do that would be to isolate her from jack and sayid. the only way anyone could possibly gain from that situation would be that if juliet was isolated with her they could form a bond. so once again, it seems like this was planned to strategically isolate both kate and juliet to give them the opportunity to form a bond so kate would invite her to be a lostie.


4) juliet was lying. she was not abandoned by the Others but instead is attempting to infiltrate the losties camp for some reason. the Others concocted this whole situation (waking up in the middle of the jungle handcuffed to eachother) as a way to isolate kate and juliet together, force them to work together and see eachother as peers instead of prisoner/warden, allow kate to feel sympathy for juliet for being abandoned, gain kate's trust, and thereby invite her into the Losties camp.
--IMO seems pretty plausible. questions that this brings up--what does juliet have to personally gain from all this? what did ben use as incentive to risk her life in this way? what is her ultimate goal once she's in the Losties camp? what do the Others ultimately have to gain from her being in the Losties camp? planting misinformation? some bigger master plan?


anyone else think of any other plausible scenarios?







jack already has sympathy for her and would be willing to invite her into the Losties camp. sayid is always going to be suspicious of her because he has a good eye for seeing people's real motivations and because he can tell when someone is lying. kate, however, is susceptible to being influenced... if the monster hadn't come and juliet hadn't been so scared and taken off the handcuffs, you can imagine that juliet and kate would have potentially formed that sisterly "we're in this thing together" bond. with both jack and kate's support the other losties would have welcomed her and just viewed sayid and overly suspicious. with only jack's support, the other losties will be more confused and doubt her more....


ahhhhh, having a moment of "i told you so!!!!" :biggrin:

ok im posting this without having seen one of us yet, but i think that juliet was genuinely left behind by the others and decided to try and get kate onside.

she was either not gassed or woke up quicker, took kate out to the jungle and handcuffed herself to her ( probably shutting off the fence as she went )

the clue us often in the flashback - where kate and kimberley were both wronged and joined forces to help each other - eventually building up trust for each other
this is what juliet was attempting.

but when smokey threatened she had to unlock herself from kate to save herself and kate. because she waited for kate to get inside the fence before turning it on, she must have earned herself a few points with kate anyway